New Replies (Page 222)
I spent a great deal of time thinking about the transmission mechanism of the donation, what they were transmitting and what it meant as an act. I concluded that they lived through an infinite number of phases but not necessarily in the manner of Theseus and therefore the chant that comes to Elizabeth is correct. What they pass is eternal so the resurrection is like everything else an echo of an inner truth. (Indeed that was to give mankind a second chance) I think in David's case he had information, which became untrammelled by dysfunctional relationships then he had understanding but that was only the beginning of his journey. As you know in my story he is not distracted by madness. Instead through Elizabeth he found the truth of this Universe and "they' became representative of it. he played by the "rules" of an Intelligent Universe and you could argue he was accepted and Elizabeth was rejected. So for me David was on point with his knowledge whereas Elizabeth was the one that misunderstood things. That David correctly interprets Lawrence and Shelley in my vision is due to both hind sight and the help the author received.
For me the intriguing question is were the powers changed by the events of the fall and I believe they were, they learnt that there is no immutable truth. Indeed Elizabeth vain glorious believed the fall gave them a more rounded view of the potential of the universe. That I think is something having answered all the questions should be left for us to ponder. What impact did David and Elizabeths journey have on the powers.
Damon Lindelof said if you go "there" and remove all the ambiguity it will always end in disappointment. I think thats true and whether one travels at the gift of an obsessive hobbyist or a professional film maker to the Engineers Homeworld not only is it provocative to realise that the creatures of the Juggernauts are not the Engineers but that "they" the real Engineers should remain illusive. Was that unique capacity of fallen mankind to love and hate unrealised because the Engineered Universe was the gift of machines or did they become machines which is why they allowed David to make the journey in the opposite direction? Is that why they used the donation tool billions of years into the universe existence. I think thats constructive ambiguity.
So to answer your question my vision is this creation lasts for a very long time and does so by taking an exceptionally long term view but is it eternal who knows?
Two other points one which relates to the original question of the OP.
Whilst there was a chance to take the events of ALIEN and contextualise them and at the same time broaden the appeal beyond the 16 to 25 year old male audience I can see in reaction to what I have done some people say "so its about exploding chests and all that nonsense." No no no its about placing it in the context of an intelligent universe. So some are immediately put off by ANY association with the creature whereas of course a book which reflects Lindelof's vision for P 2 "there will probably be none of those references." is as dull as ditchwater to the core audience whose pre occupations lie with fabric. If Alien ever makes big again it will be with an entirely new audience and a story that relates to them.
The other more philosophical point is if we take the sum total of all knowledge and our imagination what can we create. I think in Ridleys case he has a bundle of ideas and a great craft for visual cues but he still needs an astonishingly good science fiction person (knowledge plus imagination) so that you end up with all those visual feasts meaning something more. The first film was a superior slash film in space Aliens remade Vietnam and Americans going into territory they do not understand. Both of those are highly relatable if you then simply start throwing the dice up in the air (bad androids, attitude woman, the creature tropes and the colonial marines) you just go round in a smaller and smaller circle and end with legacy fan stories (on wait thats already happening).
@Michelle Johnston Nice to see you again, but this morality/ immortality question could be more complicated than that. Even if an artist's name is remembered by his works, does it really mean that something of the artist remains? What about the anonymous works of art? Or what about masterworks lost and only known through second hand sources? Or misunderstood art? Remember I once said to you that David's quote from Lawrence in Prometheus is incomplete and that could be attributed to misunderstanding as the quote of Ozymandias.
And if you change everyday, like the Ship of Theseus, can you really be called immortal or that you merely live through an infinite number of phases (as opposed to the limit count as a human). Maybe in this sense, only something utterly unchanging is eternal.
Having studied the Space Jockey a lot...
Here is a Pretty Much Accurate Size/Proportion of the Space Jockey compared to our Engineers.
So YES maybe having the Engineers to NOT be the Space Jockey could be the way to go.
Well LETO that is the Main Question... its not a case of "what kind of a world would David Create" or how we can get back to what Prometheus was trying to show us.
It will be what DISNEY think will Sell Tickets $$$ if they think a ALIENS meets Avatar meets Guardians of the Galaxy will make $$$$$$ then thats what they would choose to do.
It seems some of FOX had confidence in RS, even after the Disappointment of Alien Covenant, it could seem that some of them was considering that maybe YES he was ahead of the Curve.... with Emma Watts backing a Continuation to Ridley Scotts Prequels instead of working on any other ALIEN Projects.
The Take Over Talks placed everything on HOLD.. and Disney would be looking at WHAT could make Money.
Its a case of IF we see Disney have Confidence in RS, or indeed the kind of Direction he wanted to take, or do they continue with a more Direct Alien Xenomorph connection which is now EXPECTED?
I think a lot depends on THREE things..
1) How well Received his Raised by Wolves is and the Ideas within that TV Series.
2) How Good he works with Disney on Merlin Project and how well that Performs.
3) Fan Reaction to the Upcoming ALIEN Content, that includes New Books, Comics and Games that revolve around the similar Tropes of the ALIENS and on-wards Franchise.
If 1+2 turn out to be Disappointing and there is a Great Interest in 3) then i think its CURTAINS for Ridley Scott and the Alien/Prequels and so what Prometheus offered would be ENDED.. apart from the Introduction of maybe the Engineers in regards to being Technologically Advanced Warlike Race using their Bio-Technology, and Biological Warfare against Mankind... and PREDATORS (in Comics/Games at least).
But certainly it would mean a Move to Movies about the Xenomorph and revolve around such.
We cant use Hindsight..... as Prometheus should have been a bit more ALIENY with Xenomorphs or similar and less Vague Clues to LV-426 so that the Door to Alien would be Closed and Dr Shaw and David go off to something NEW!
They could have rectified this by having TWO sequels.
1) A Mission to LV-223, much more Alieny like Alien Engineers that gives more clues to the Xenomorph and LV-426... and sets up Special Order 937
2) Leaving another Movie where Dr Shaw and David go off to find the Engineers and END UP going VERY FAR away... to explore something Fresh that does-not have to be Shackled down by ALIEN.
Essentially opening up TWO Franchises....
Engineers/Creation Franchise and the ALIEN Franchise.
Not a Conspiracy..... but a Sequel ;)
Yes.... Alien 5
I had discussed on here a few times, and few years ago about a Alien 5 Proper (after Blomkamp put his idea out prior to Alien Covenant) at this time i proposed a Sequel to Alien Resurrection, which i had TWO alternative ideas, both slightly different to each other.
Which would indeed had revealed that CALL was actually working for the Auton's as they had a Cult that wanted the Xenomorph to use so they can RULE the World.
At this time of putting the idea out there, i had TWO ways that our Ripley 8 would be used and MASK her Age... where Limited CGI would be needed only for a few Scenes ONLY.
1) The Xenomorph DNA is overwriting her Human DNA, she is becoming a Hybrid so the Autons say that they can Help her... but only Accelerate the Process.
2) As with (1) only instead of Accelerating the Xeno-DNA, Ripley 8 gets help from the Autons to RID her of her Xenomorph DNA, which they do but then this causes Ripley to Age Fast..
In either case the Autons aim is to Use the Xenomorph.
In either case...
1) Hybrid Ripley Saves the Day, but realizes the Struggle in herself for her Humanity, and Risk of anyone getting Xenomorph DNA from her... that she SACRIFICES herself.
2) The Now Human Ripley, overcomes the Xenomorph Threat, and at the Conclusion she starts to age quick and Dies of Old Age.... Now Finally at Peace!
I did a few Months back have a Alternative to the TWO, where i would introduce NEWT back into the Fold... but with a TWIST! in this one CALL is revealed to not be a Traitor and Genuinely thought she was helping.
so back to the OT....
Auton CALL... Secret Agenda to obtain a Xenomorph? I think thats a possibility and something a Sequel should have considered...
The tricky question - do you think studios must give Ridley $100-200 millions for the next ingenius, but box-office failure film?
Hint:
If Ridley wants to sponsor the next film from his own wallet - no one will mind.
Nice post and the point about immortality can be defined by achievement + timeless value is very true. My reason for responding to the guy on this thread is he may be interested in the work I have done. However thanks for your two posts a breath fresh air. Someone once said we get the newspapers we deserve, maybe in that context we get the films we deserve. If people think those six fan shorts are worth all the hits they get there is not much hope.
In the end you have to make the film your believe in and hope the general audience buy in it and shut up the core fans who have a lot to say on the internet. I am following the making of Bond 25 and I read the criticisms of Sky fall, the biggest grossing bond ever, and whilst people do not have to like the film, though it captured the much wider audience, whats clear is deep fans have two major experiential problems.
1) They become wedded to a certain way of doings things and decide thats the only way things can work.
2) They are incapable of suspension or recognising artistic licence, believing they are expressing their fandom by watching the film from the bottom up.
Best
Michelle
NTFS, Christopher Nolan looks like a chubby David in that photo. :)
Even Toy Story got in on the fun back in the day.
Once again Hats off to the Guys who worked on this EXCELLENT ;)
I think having Dr Shaw as shown would have been interesting, certainly more so than what we got in Alien Covenant.
It would be interesting to see how the Space Jockey are revealed more.. Certainly i think a lot of Fans are Disappointed in the Engineers, they may have expected more... I felt the Engineers were Fine, only the Scale was not pulled off, but this was intended in the Drafts. Also some Aesthetic Differences however Minor.
So it would be interesting to see how this series takes us in regards to the Space Jockey, i know a lot are more a Fan of the Skeleton Theory.... i think a Space Suit or Bio-Mechanical Being (like Xenomorphs) are best Explanations.. But it will be interesting to see where this Series takes us.
Once Again.... Fantastic Work ;)
"If you sit down and think about the potential of such a story its huge and like the best science fiction the further on you go the further you return"
Absolutely this was the Premise of Prometheus, there could have been Numerous ways the Story Could have Unfolded, you have you own Idea which sounds Interesting but regardless of HOW they could have taken it, the Quote i used from you is PERFECT because in a Nutshell that Quote shows the Scope... that the Direction of the Prequels seems to have SHUT the Door on which is a shame, is we could have had a EPIC Story to tell.
"David and Elizabeth were right and in looking at the fall of the people we meet on the Moon we see ourselves"
Again a excellent point.. indeed we could had been seeing the same Theme Repeating Over and Over. David perhaps saw his Mirror in the Engineer in Prometheus and had Dr Shaw meet one of those Planet 4/Paradise Engineers she could be looking into the Mirror of a Ancient Version of herself.
"these were merely emblems to Weyland"
I think a lot dont look into that scene and the Ozymandias Poem, they have deep relative meaning that people overlook certainly in regards to IMMORTALITY as indeed its our Works and Creations, and our Ancestry that makes us somewhat Immortal.
Shakespeare, Piero della Francesca, much like Elvis and Picasso are Immortalized due to their Works, had they been just Normal People then Long After they are GONE it would only be their Family who would remember them, and pass on Stories. You can have Statues Erected in Honor of Certain People, Kings, Saints but as the Ozymandias Poem points out " Nothing beside remains. Round the decay, Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare" so Eventually all these Works and Statues will be lost over time.
Nothing Lasts Forever... in Many Millions of Years the Earth could look as Mars is now... then what remains?
And so this i feel is what Peter Weyland had pointed out, for all his Accomplishments for all the Gifts/Objects/Art that he Possesses they are of NO-USE to him when he Dies, Eventually his Works will be Forgotten..
And so this is why he has the Ambition to Eventually Meet our Makers, in the Hope to Attain True Immortality, yet ironically to a Degree when he looks at David he is looking at a Kind of Immortality.
So there is a lot of Philosophy and many ways they could have expanded upon this, which i now feel we wont do, and so the Prequels have maybe Lost that Scope... because FOX at the Time Felt that Fans wanted to have Xenomorphs instead.
"It's All About Everything."
I took some pleasure from someone on the forum for the first time ever in seven years (that number again) articulating the character momentum built up by David and Elizabeth. In terms of story they were perfectly set up to go on.
I found myself very nearly rehearsing the arguments about the rule book which knock every post about size, distance and what the internet call the black goo into touch but decided I was being held back from reflecting on the real audacity inherent in the set up.
If you give yourself permission to admit that some thing went wrong between the Waterfall Incident and the disaster of the Moon and the Lone Craft what you have is a thriving Intelligent Universe the seeding of planets across the galaxy over the Eons and something goes wrong. What results are "dark angels' who we establish in Prometheus, a tale about stolen technology, are mankind's forebears.
If you sit down and think about the potential of such a story its huge and like the best science fiction the further on you go the further you return. People show silly cartoons of an Engineer on the Cross but what if the unique personality represented something that was neither Engineer or Christ?
Then there is the other strand how does the fall occur what are its origins what does it lead to, how does it result in Juggernauts and the facility on the Moon and the summation of the experiments, the pinnacle the being in the mural, the unholy consequences of all the experiments that had gone before oh and what is Cain's child.
But there is something else something ever more tantalising what is meant to happen what is the plan what does it look like.
Maybe that will explain why I sometimes display irritation with the tropes but that for me is the real irony the story is in part about a chosen people that could not see what it had, what was on its doorstep. David and Elizabeth were right and in looking at the fall of the people we meet on the Moon we see ourselves.
The other beautifully symmetrical point about David and Elizabeth is, Elizabeth believed in the nativity and David was woken in a room with a beautiful incomplete picture of it. However as I say in Pandora's Urn.
"There was a Steinway Piano in a prime position and behind the piano on a feature mantelpiece an original of the First Folio of Shakespeare’s complete works.
David knew, like the Painting of the Nativity by Piero della Francesca, which Weyland owned, and the Carlo Bugatti’s Throne Chair that he had been sat in when his memories began, these were merely emblems to Weyland. He was not interested in them as works of art and he certainly could not play a note on the piano."
So who does Weyland refract and the brilliant David who does understand their meaning?
I love it, especially the arrival of the Space Jockeys at the end. Just how I imagined and described them on one of the forum topics.
Can't wait for the next part.
Ps Cannot wait for Episode 3! ;)
It's fantastic that you are making this animated series for all of us!
What can I say...you've shown us many of the things we know will probably never be included in any future sequel, that we wish & hope for.
As well as the wonderful imagery I also appreciate Jason's blending of his own incidental music with original soundtrack themes.
Thanks guys, I just LOVE it!
No words. Just perfect.
I liked the true bad@$$es in the end. And I liked the brown tentacle alien from the intro. And Shaw is so creepy - I liked her cold-blue/steel colors.
The premise reminds me of the 2010 AVP game. The marines branch of the story, which is a good thing! The announcement was meant to hype us up for the game preumably and it most certinaly has my attention! Maybe wipe away the memories of A:CM with a proper colinal marines game! Wonder when more info will be released. This summer or closer to the release of the comics?
Christopher Nolan
Nearly all of his works is related to a competing film studio. This may be an issue.
David's servant welcomes them
Urnaja means Paradise in Proto-Indo European (Engineer language)
My score- Alan Silvestri
My director- sir Ridley Scott.
Story: Stephen King
My actresses:
Amy Adams
Lupita Amondi Nyong'o
My actors:
Rufus Frederik Sewell (android new model)
Jared Harris (scientist)
Stellan John Skarsgård (captain)
Ioan Gruffudd
My Monster: NeoBornMorph
Certainly there is a Market for the Gung-Ho Action of the Comics, and they certainly provide Entertainment as do the Video Games.
I feel a lot of the times its kind of the same Plot/Tropes repeated so you maybe sometimes get more Variation between the Starship Trooper Movies.
I do think a Action like Movie or TWO could certainly have a Market, and depending how they are done they could be Interesting but i am not sure for Example if we had 4 Alien Movies where they are basically the Same/Similar to say Aliens and Alien Resurrection. Its nice to see something NEW and different explored within the Franchise, and this does-not also have to mean as far as Movies but also Comics and Games.
Most Expanded Novels and Games and Comics deal with the Cameron's Xenomorph look and behavior, and i agree this is because that Style is most Recognized as ALIENS is the most Well-Known of the Franchise. The Prequels have kind of given us the option to explore different kinds of Morphs, the Deacon, the Hammerpedes, the Neomorph are all examples and you can have so many different kinds, with Imagination and Different Procreation Methods... that it would be interested to see these Explored in Comics and Games.
Regarding the Colonial Marines... they are not SOLELY a Military Force purely to deal with Xenomorphs..
I had a Idea for a Colonial Marines TV Series that would be 8-10 Episodes the First 2-3 (2 Hours) could deal with the Recruitment and Training and get us to BOND with the Characters. Then its a case of them having their First Mission which does-not have to be Bug Hunting Xenomorphs. Your not Limited to just them, so you would call the Colonial Marines in to deal with.
*Other Human Conflicts/Warzones.
*Terrorist Activity/Sabotage.
*Rebellious/Out of Control Synthetics.
*Rebellious Colonist.
*Hostages/Assassinations.
You could introduce Corporate Back Stabling, Treason, Treachery and Conspiracy.
We could see some other kind of Bug Hunts....
We could see the Marines Relax on Arcturus and find out what is Arcturian Poontang
So there is scope for Colonial Marines, TV Series, Games or Comics/Novels that dont revolve around Clearing Out Xenomorphs
@Decs Youtube has an area restriction. Most of Marco Beltrami's music is available only in North America. This example is available worldwide.
@BigDave, I'm with you on the Prometheus score fitting very well. I've seen the movie countless times, and I always think what a great job Marc Streitenfeld did. Superbly crafted.
I've got a "Video unavailable" message for the embed in the topic.
"Playback on other websites has been disabled by the video owner."
I didn't disable the playback so I can only assume it is a constraint (20th Century Fox, Disney) due to the film sequence of the video. That is a real bummer because I had a great shot of the flip flops.
Great news and a nice fit with all the new developments daliens. Thank you for the share....it will pacify me a little BigDave.
Certainly not like a film or TV series (oh could I be so rewarded for the times I didn't cuss). The comics seem to fill the "far out" section of Alien content....love them.
Excellent reconciliation of the mechanics and mercenaries BigDave. Thank you so very much.
He could be a second synthetic if we consider important the fact that they were shown both performing the same action at the same time while laying a hand and a towel across the shoulder of those comforted, above photo.
This was right after Vickers said to David to wake everyone up but there was a break after David walked in the room with the opening hypersleep pods before the cut to the second pair of flip flops.
I'm still trying to figure out the recipient of Advent.
"And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead."...no realization like this for me yet with the Advent recipient.
"2) There are some Minor Advancements as things Improvebetween Models and Each Prototype has the Memories(Soul) of the Previous Model Prototype Transferred into the New Body."
Sir Peter Weyland's notes (The Weyland-Yutani Report, page 35) were used to build the Hyperdine Systems androids (Ash).
I assume, at the time of his death, Mr. Weyland had multiple synthetic models in development in addition to the David 8 and Walter models.
Please add anything you think of Lone. I've read a topic of yours in the last days and appreciate anything you have to add, on topic or not.
Gordon is such a great reference Gavin.
I'm familiar with the David and Walter models being named after David Giler, Walter Hill and it hadn’t occurred to me that another could certainly be named Gordon, after Gordon Carroll.
The white room is shown quite clearly and from the same angle in the Meet Walter and the opening of Alien: Covenant and I don't believe it was an accident. Thank you for the rich historical framing.
The portrait of Tyrell in episode 1 was a nice touch.
Will there be other Blade Runner and Alien connections in episode 2?
I cant seem to get these to Play...
Hope the work is coming along Nicely as i liked the stuff you had done before ;)
I think it will give certain Fanbase something Interest to Pacify them.. Its nice that the Comics will Tie in with a Video Game.
I guess by how well these do, will allow Disney to Gauge if there is Potential to explore a more Aliens/Colonial Marines Type Movie or a Colonial Marines TV Series
I would be interested to see a Colonial Marines TV Series or Comics that DONT have to be about BUG HUNTING the Xenomorph as surely thats not the ONLY thing these guys do ;)
I think what we have is DAVID... be it his Body or Walters, he was Masquerading as Walter to Mislead the Company, so that maybe they would not Investigate the Covenant and just assume all is now well and its on its way to Origae-6.
The Advent is a Strange One, as i dont think this is a wise move by David, it makes NO sense for him to Transmit this, not before he has Accomplished what he had intended. But he could have done this as a Red Herring, if say he would mislead the Company to go to Origae-6 so that David can go elsewhere... But it is still a Potential Error for David surely if he decides to go to LV-223 instead or stay on Planet 4, the Company would be sending Ships to those places, and as those places are within a 10-12 Months from Earth, the Company would Detect the Covenant is heading towards this area.
Maybe The Advent was a attempt to Bait the Company to go to LV-223 and Planet 4 as Priority so that they DONT follow him to Origae-6.... but then the we have to ask that IF he had NOT sent the Advent Message, then would the Company have any reasons to SUSPECT something is NOT right with the Covenant Mission and Intercept the Ship before it gets to its Destination or at a Later Point which would leave David less time to Create what ever he wanted?
Regarding Multiple Synthetics..... in regards to Walter, then i think we could assume there are enough Spare Parts to Maintain Walter, and its a case of WHAT parts are there and is there enough to Build a New Walter, or MORE than ONE?
And what default Program would they have, and would David be so Foolish to Activate One, without Wiping its Memory/Protocols First?
I think the Music/Soundtrack is a Important Part of a Movie for Various Reasons.
I think just as with the Director, i feel the Choice/Style of Soundtrack and Composer really comes down to WHAT KIND of a Movie they would be working on.
Prometheus and Alien Covenant's Soundtracks were Different, and both Movies were kind of Different. One being a Space Exploration Adventure that dealt with Creationism and Search for Answers that leads to Hell Breaking Loose where Discovery Leads to a Thriller/Horror (to a degree) the other a Expectation of Discovering a Paradise that becomes a Thriller/Horror that is more of a Horror/Slasher Element to it.
The Prometheus Soundtrack fitted very well with that kind of Movie, and Alien Covenants was more a NOD to the Original Alien.
And so depending on the Next Movie and what it will be about would have a Impact to what kind of Score and who is best to Compose it. A more Action Based ALIEN Movie like Aliens and Alien Resurrection would maybe not have the same Score as a Haunted House like Alien and Alien 3.
So as with the Director i think a lot depends on WHAT the Movie is to be about and WHAT style of Movie, then you find which Director and Composer would be best suited.
Jonathan Glazer. He's done some great (and slightly weird stuff), takes his time and gets it right. Examples:
Sexy Beast
Under The Skin
@setaverde, I thought Morgan (Luke Scott) was a terribly dreary movie.
I'm glad that Blomkamp is back in his box. It would have only looked just like District 9 / Chappie / Elysium. He can't help himself.
What if Walter downloaded David's files (mostly the files shown in Advent, passwords, whatever made David's twisted character) and chose to reign in hell?
David saw the potential of Walter (you have symphonies in you, brother) and simply the fact that he gave him the choice to serve in heaven or reign in hell means that there was a possibility of choice built in Walter. Or maybe he started to malfunction after he was brutally shut down by David?
Another fact that could indicate Walter is on board the Covenant is the transmission sent at the end of the film, he logged in as Walter.
He did not forget about the cabin on the lake (I think this part is even missing in the novelization), he was just being sadistic, knowing that Daniels was now locked into the cryopod, he was playing cat and mouse.
I still think that David uploaded himself into Walter, rather than cutting off his hand etc. Mind you, if that were the case, why didn't the cuts on Walter's face self heal?
Sorry for going off topic, why do I even bother about it anymore? :)
