Comments (Page 239)

What are you talking about???

I thank God every day for Ridley Scott has been able to give us Alien, Prometheus, Alien Covenant and... Blade Runner. The eyes Behind the camera were of Ridley Scott, not of anybody else. Fans of Jim Cameron, go watch "Piranha 2, the spawning". It's his best movie.

Ps: Ridley Scott gave US xenomorphs, Androids, engineers, neomorphs and replicants, and so much more. It's a human condition, don't get satisfaction about everything, and, when you get iT, it just doesn't last. We, humans, have so Many flaws.

"We can’t apply notions from religion or philosophy (terms like “rebellion”, “sin”, “hubris”, “creation”, “god”, “devil”, “hell”, “good and evil”, “free will” etc, etc)"

I dont mean to be Disrespectful here, but i dont agree.  Some of what you point yeah... but there are Religious Undertones to the Prequels, maybe we should not interpret them as such, but they are their to be interpreted.  Then if we take Rebellion again we see David had became Rebellious to Mankind, instead of Serving these are shown in the Movie, even as far as Dialog for example when David spoke to Walter.

Anything we see in the Movie can be interpreted, the Prologue is easy to interpret as Creation, if we just dont have any interpretations then we can apply this to all sorts in the Franchise.   The Mural for example... oh its just a Painting and thats it...  but by Virtue of it being their it can be interpreted by people in many ways... some may interpret it as the Xenomorph and they are Worshiped as Gods by the Engineers, the Mural is open to that interpretation for sure, if we are looking at ONLY what is shown in the Movies, this is just as people could interpret and see Religious, Philosophical Elements from the movie, even if we ONLY see what we are shown.  Some people maybe interpret things differently, i dont think we should look at the Movies like a  under 10 years old would and thus just see it in a simple way.

Forgive me if i am not totally understanding what you meant though...   My last reply was in regards to what LETO had said and i was pointing out the different things you could consider ASIDE from the actual Theatrical Movie, and then i was going to THROW them all out and give a interpretation if i IGNORED it all apart from what the The Movies Showed.

I had  a Emergency so i never got to reply... but i will make that reply next, it would be kind of proving the point that LETO was making ;)

Sorry if it is OT or if it has been mentioned before, but I think the egg morph scene- how it gradually altered the victims- may have been a result of a less concentrated version of the black goo.

I think I would prefer that the xenomorph was a species which had evolved in a harsh environment. The engineers would then have found the eggs and transported them to different places (e.g. LV-223) to study them. The black goo was eventually the result of their experiments.

The other way around would be OK: The engineers create the xenomorph through experiments with the black goo.

The least appealing variant is David creating the xenomorph. This is, however, the path Ridley Scott has chosen so that’s probably what we’ll get in the final chapter. This doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be interesting. David is a very interesting character and played magnificently by Fassbender.

If Scott would present us with the final link to Alien, it seems likely that David has used the 2000 colonists aboard USCSS Covenant and turned them into the eggs that we have in the cargo hold of the Derelict on LV-426.

A juggernaut would be easy to get on LV-223 but I wouldn’t want David as the Space Jockey. Perhaps an engineer in a heroic act trying to get rid of the eggs but falls prey to them? Not a good idea with the beacon, though. :)

BigDave

In literary terms, sticking only to the text is called “New Criticism” (it’s not new any longer, though). This was opposed to going outside the text (historical, biographical criticism etc) in order to gather information about the author, the time, ideas, references to other literature etc. The idea with “New Criticism” was to only interpret what we read and not go outside the work in order to find clues about how to interpret things in it.

If we should apply this to movies, say Alien: Covenant, then we can’t get any help about interpreting the dialogue between Sir Peter Weyland and David from history or interviews with Ridley Scott. We can’t apply notions from religion or philosophy (terms like “rebellion”, “sin”, “hubris”, “creation”, “god”, “devil”, “hell”, “good and evil”, “free will” etc, etc). We have, e.g., the statue of David, the painting “The Nativity”, the opera “Das Rheingold” etc.

Perhaps it’s better not to restrict ourselves and see everything that can enrich our experience and deepen our interpretations as something good? We can take on board what we like. It’s not science, after all. :)

"The problem with Ridley's words, quotes, interviews, revelations, explanations, etc... - they are not on the screen"

I think when discussing the Franchise and Interpreting it, then everyone is ENTITLED to come to their own Conclusions and their is a LOT of Cherry Picking...  I am someone who looks at all Evidence and i dont really get sucked into anything that has NO base to base any theory on...  But the Franchise is so Ambiguous that allows for many theories,  and i have said it a lot of times that DEPENDING what we take as Clues/Evidence can lead you to different conclusions.

So i think when looking at DRAFTS while they may offer some insight, we maybe have to only CONSIDER what the Drafts have that have made it to the Movies...

When Considering the Concepts again we maybe should only CONSIDER those that made it into any Movies.  Maybe we could consider Concepts that are almost identical to what was used in a Movie but maybe only if they were made for the Particular movie the likeness appears in.

When we are looking at Deleted Scenes its then a case of do we only CONSIDER what we are shown in the Movie and Throw Out the Deleted Scenes....

Do we CONSIDER any Directors Cut's and what happens if the Differences allow for some Questions/Conflicts to be raised? or do we IGNORE any Directors Cut, even though they are as the Director had intended and NOT a Cut they had to be Restricted to for the Box Office?

Do we have to CONSIDER the Viral Videos and Marketing, and DVD Extras or which of these SHOULD only be Considered?

Do we have to IGNORE any comments or interviews by other Production and Writing Staff, if these offer explanations to certain things?

Do we have to CONSIDER or IGNORE any Official Novel for the Movies or should these be taken as more FACT and accept the extra depth that they add to the Story that the Movie is Restricted to show due to Running Time Restraints?

I would CONSIDER any expanded Novel and Comic as something we SHOULD NOT edge all our bets on as far as using as Definite Evidence.

Then we come down to the Director....  they are the ONE who is Responsible for taking the Draft Story, for taking the Concept Work, working with Production to then decide which parts of the Story and Concepts are shown Visually on Screen..  Its the Director who GIVES us what we SEE on Screen.   They are the ONE who is given Paint Brush, the Musical Instruments to then Create what we END-UP with on Screen what we get so to speak.

So they are the ONE who know how the Story is Intended to FOLD out for the Movie they are working on, they are the ONE who knows how Visually things should be,  The Cutting Room does change a lot... but then any Director Interviews will talk about what is INTENDED after such Process.

Each New Movie can Change things that was laid down prior, and Each New Director has INSIGHT to what these Changes are meant to be and HOW they effect the Franchise.

==================

Depending on which of the above you choose to CONSIDER or IGNORE will take you to a certain conclusions and even if different people used the same Clues, they could still interpret them differently..

Then we have what you mention LETO... what ONLY is shown on Screen...  so by that do we limit it ONLY to the Movies?   When say any ALIEN movie is shown on TV then we HAVE none of the other Material to consider, if someone has NEVER seen any ALIEN movie or aware of anything, then they see ALL the Movies... is it what they have seen that we ULTIMATELY have to ONLY consider?

In that case then YES they would be drawn to a certain Path, that changes with each movie, where even after they see the Movies 5, 10 times each... Provided they have NO knowledge of anything else but whats ONLY shown in the Movie then many such people would STILL conclude different things.

My next REPLY will be me attempting to look at it from that angle as if i have NEVER seen the Movies and NEVER use any other source of material apart from say the Movies even if i saw them 10 times...    What i will write will still NOT be accepted by some, what i will write will NOT match some my theories.

I can then change things by Cherry Picking other information that is NOT in the Movies... but i will stick with what we ONLY see in the Movies....  then i make some assumptions based purely on that.

"Imagine: who after 30 years will look for all these interviews?"

If Ridley Scott will not complete the prequels and all these mysteries will remain unsolved, probably some rabid fans like us will find the interviews, looking for answers.

The problem with Ridley's words, quotes, interviews, revelations, explanations, etc... - they are not on the screen. Everything that said Ridley, is not on the screen. So, no matter how much you want it - his words are not part of a canon or a lore of Alien-verse.

Now, a very small number of people search and read all these interviews. And these interviews can give completely different conclusions than what is shown on the screen. Ridley's words is not an addons to lore of the prequels, but completely another plot. The great Red Herring - what is this? The film or the interview?

Imagine: who after 30 years will look for all these interviews? Can the film exist without these interviews? Can it be independent?

“It follows...one my favorite movies in recent years.”

ninXeno426, I loved it too!

“Sphere is decent, though my brother days it's not quite on par with the book.”

Yeah, I found that 90% of the time when people read a book and then see the movie based on said book they´re almost always dissatisfied with it… I mean it’s next to impossible to cram all of the information of a book in a movie, so I always try to judge them as separate things, they´re two very different mediums.

“The Descent is one of the best creature flicks of all time. “

Agreed!

“Signs is very underappreciated.”

Also agreed!

And now that you mention it, it is SUPER weird that no one, including myself, had mentioned “The Fly” on this thread… Definitely a good pick! And coincidentally not long ago I was channel surfing and caught “The Fly 2”, and I had seen bits a pieces before but didn’t remember it well, so I saw it in that moment and I thought to myself “Hey, this isn’t bad at all..” sadly I had to do something and I couldn’t finish watching it, I´ll try to catch it later.

About “Blade Runner”, well yeah, it had things in common with “Alien” besides Ridley Scott, like robots and a dark gritty view of the future. Also, if I remember correctly I read somewhere that in “Alien 3” you can see some building or structure that appeared in the original “Blade Runner”.

About “Total Recall”, I didn’t know about Shusset and O’Banon having the rights to that one, good trivia!

“Melancholia with kirsten dunst was a great movie”

Marvelous, yeah I quite liked it too despite not being a big fan of Lars Von Trier.

A NECA visit- interesting!

So, re-reading the thread I realized that I totally missed some posts, probably because of how large Big Dave posts were (no offense! lol).

"Big picture it looks like someone trying to advance something for no other reason than a cash grab and/ or for vanity reasons."

Hey dk! Sorry I totally missed this post, I hadn’t even realized you posted on this thread until now lol. You know, despite my gripes with "Prometheus" and "Alien: Covenant", I really don´t think they're cash grabs, I think Ridley genuinely wanted to explore the “Alien” universe beyond just the xenos and having them kill all the characters in the movie over and over again, the thing was, the direction in which he wanted to take the story wasn’t everyone´s cup of tea, myself included. However, I do give him credit for trying to do something fresh and new with the franchise with "Prometheus", instead of doing another retread. Too bad that many of his decisions regarding where to take the story where kinda questionable.

"Excellent topic and poster Decs."

Thanks a lot Ingeniero!

"I think the Space Jockey was a very interesting Entity"

I totally agree Big Dave, like I said before, that scene in "Alien" was probably my favorite one, and I had always wanted to know more about those beings, but the way Ridley Scott decided to explore and present them in his prequels left me totally cold and dissatisfied, sadly.

That picture you posted is cool, I think I had seen it before. It always strikes me how obviously and strongly sexual are most of H.R. Giger´s designs, it really is heavy and in-your-face stuff on that front.

"No matter if you like or dislike Alien 3, I think that many would put it in front of the AVP’s, the prequels, and Resurrection, 3 is a lot better compared to them I would say."

Yeah, I think I do agree with that statement up to a point Thoughts_Dreams, 3 is definitely better than Resurrection and the AvP movies (I haven’t even seen the second one because of how badly it was received by almost everyone in the world)... Although I think 3 is kinda on par with the prequels for me though.

The guys at Neca Toys paid a visit to the North Bergen High School. They brought some presents too.

I think thats a Great Point....  your not gonna get a Movie that pleases EVERYONE..

The Closest they would have gone would had been in Hindsight if Prometheus offered more Clues, a bit of Xeno-like Monster Action and allowed the Door to Alien to be somewhat closed...  Then allow Prometheus 2 to go off a different Tangent.

Thats in Hindsight!

But Prometheus was the PERFECT Anchor for the Franchise and HOW to expand it.

What should have been done was TWO Sequels to Prometheus.

1) A Sequel to where David and Dr Shaw went that would not have to cover Xenomorphs or link to LV-426 (but could hint to the LV-223 Experiments or maybe not). If say the beings discovered are none the wiser to LV-223.

2) A Mission to LV-223 that would allow for a more Alieny Movie offering more clues to the Xenomorph and what was going on LV-223 with maybe clues to WHY.

The Option 2 should have been brought out First!

Then Option 1 next and allowed RS to have Freedom to go off and do what ever he wanted.

After BOTH are out... Fox could Gauge would BOTH Warrant Sequels, would only Option 1 or 2 Warrant Sequels, or was both Prequel Routes a DUD and just go back to the ALIEN Franchise.

But ALAS!

Then this could have been the Potential Expanded Avenues.

When working on my Prometheus 2 in 2012/2013 it was more a None Alieny/Engineer Sequel (had a bit) but would set up a Sequel that was to LV-223 and be very ALIENY...

Then there would have been another Movie that would have been where David and Dr Shaw end up that would be not so ALIENY.

My Prometheus 2... Loosely covered Dr Shaw and David but not much time on them, (few Flashbacks Dreams) only as far as to SET-UP the TWO Sequels. It mainly Focused on what becomes of the Company after the Disappearance of LV-223, sets seeds for the Merger and then a Mission to LV-223 (A Direct Sequel more Alieny more clues to ALIEN and NO Dr Shaw/David or Philosophy)

While then it would have been another Sequel (to Prometheus) that goes on a different Tangent to were David and Shaw go.. which is VERY FAR and set Hundred or 50 years after Prometheus. And goes and does its own thing... with not much connection to Alieny things as far as LV-223.

But i struggled with how to do that last Part Justice so i abandoned it..

Sorry for going OFF Topic... my point being that Prometheus should have had a more ALIENY Fans Pleasing LV-223 Sequel and then a Prometheus Fans Pleasing off to Paradise (or other place) different Tangent.

But now its a bit of a MESS!

Edit:  Here is the Idea i had 3-4 years ago to Expand Franchise. (ideas mentioned prior are the Starting Points)

I think this shows a kind of agreement...

We have all had different likes/dislikes and wants and not wants....  we could all offer different takes on 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 or combinations..

The more people that PARTAKE in this... would shown any EYES at Disney/Fox... that a route like 2 and 7 would be seen as Blasphemous by the VAST Majority of Fans.

I am sure we could pick Bones at each others wishes... but i think we could accept them more than IF they gave us a 2 or 7.

You wont make everyone Happy with what ever we do...

But you sure as HELL wont make Many Happy with a David or Weyland-Yutani Create what becomes those Eggs on the Derelict.

A David or Weyland-Yutani Experiment with those Eggs or Black Goo to create something else, if DONE right i feel would be more accepting!

I think even having the Predator Create the Eggs would be more pleasing to Fans than 2/7 LOL

"What do you think of this theory?

Are we alone in the universe?"

Some interesting comments.... i will concentrate on this one above though....    We have Humans on Earth, and Engineers on Planet 4 who also had been to LV-223

I think the Scope was BEYOND that, there could be Hundreds, Thousands of Worlds the Engineers had explored, and also how many other Humanoids had they created?  Potential is HUGE... by Virtue of Engineer Ships having Maps on their Navigation Systems to other Galaxies.

"Who is to say that earth is the only place? Maybe they have succeeded to keep those other worlds in check?"

Another quote that fits with what i am saying... 

Lets look at GOD... he created Mankind, but he also unleashed a lot of WHOOP-ASS for when we have FAILED to keep in Check!   If GOD exists and he created the Earth so Easy.... then why would he just not go "you know what, i am done, i will Destroy the Earth to a Grains of Sand and just Create another Earth and Start Again"

But he had Saved Mankind via Noah during the Flood...

If we take that in context to the Engineers, and we assume they are the Gods, well our Creators, then they DID-NOT create us as Easy as GOD did....  a Lot of Time and Effort must have gone into our Creation...  

So when we start to miss behave and they send Emissaries and we still dont get back in Check!  Then WHY would they Destroy us... because its Knowledge that is WHY we are not kept in Check... The Free-Will of David is what makes him NOT in Check compared to Walter.

How do you keep in Check David Models?  Create New.. or just Replace the AI/Brain or Programing ;)

GOD chose Noah because he saw him as Righteous and Just, and that Noah would be as Adam was (before Adam was led astray by Eve, More to it than that but lets pass that) by that Noah would be Loyal to GOD and his Ways...

So Mankind was given a New Start, where we could then be taught via Noah the Will and Ways that GOD intended... (but we soon went back to our old ways).

My point?  It makes sense for the Engineers to take some Humans or Children to another Place to Raise again and hope this time they dont become Corrupt because every Child is Born Innocent, and they become what they do by how they are Raised and Knowledge they are given.

So it would make sense for the Engineers to take some of Mankind (Children) away to then allow for a NEW Eden on another place, rather than Destroy us all!  The Logical ONLY ways they would NOT do this would be.

They already had done it in the past and Populated Mankind on many Worlds.... prior to our FALL on Earth in the Eyes of the Engineers.

Mankind had came from another Place and the Earth was just ONE place we had been taken to. 

So yes the potential is there for Many Human Worlds, or Similar Races, and we could ponder that maybe some of them Kept in Check!

This is exactly what i was to cover in WHERE it was David and Dr Shaw end up... which was Many Thousands of Light Years from Earth... my ideas for my Prometheus 3 would had shown a World with Engineers and Humans in Harmony but the Arrival of Dr Shaw and David poses problems for the Engineers due to what the other Humans had NOT been told about us or the Engineers.

This kind of Plot, is not FAR off what Raised by Wolves could be about, the ideas i mentioned above fit that Plot, and potentially could be similar to "what kind of world" David would Create!  He Hated Mankind due to how we are, but if he could Evolve those Embryos he could have his own Humanity who will be KIND to him.

Such Plots are a Distraction to what most fans would want the Franchise to be about, but we had to consider Prometheus was to STEER away from ALIEN...

I think in context to the comments i had take from daliens and Thoughts_Dreams  then YES the potential for their being more than THREE Worlds known to the Engineers, and ONE world for Humans is GREAT..

Many Worlds, Many Races, include those above the Engineers, but also Many Horrors too.

Such Scope... that i feel Alien Covenant had SHRUNK and the Alien Franchise is limited, if its just about Eggs and Weyland-Yutani you have to expand beyond that Eventually and Prometheus was a Good Starting Point.

"Each of us has our own beliefs as to whether or not David created the Xenomorph"

Certainly and some of us are not quite giving our beliefs, but pointing out what seems to be indicated, i would say our beliefs for those who point out the potential that David created the Xenomorph is not our personal wish... i would say many of us are suspending our belief.. because what a BAD idea it was ;)

You continue with this... "because to make David the creatures creator makes us the center of the universe in a franchise called "Alien"."

Again i would say most would agree with this... the David Creates it, Leaves it for the Company to come along and Obtain it, combined with the Engineers/Engineers City on Planet 4, take the Franchise so FAR away from what was ALIEN about that WHOLE scene of the  Derelict and its Contents!

"I have a theory that the planet seeded at the beginning of Prometheus is planet 4, because of the sculptured heads on the mountains from planet 4"

Certainly.... but if i comment in this.. well my Keyboard would break ;)

I think Movies can Change... and the Plots are changed, then only Concrete stuff shown Chronologically cant really be changed... everything else is Fair Game.

So the Prequels by their Vague Nature is Ripe for the Pickings....

For instance...... HOW does the Sacrificial Scene 100% prove this is how Mankind was created? or that it was on Earth?    The Engineers are Genetic Gardeners, they do Predate us (we can assume) and their DNA is similar!

Planet 4 Engineers look different to Prometheus ones... slightly.  The Sacrificial Scene could have taken place on Planet 4 to Create those beings on Planet 4, and  Mankind then came from them..... 

Ridley Scott said those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS.... so this means the LV-223 are NOT the Originals and the Planet 4 Engineers Predate them...

However... the Sacrificial Engineer looks more like the LV-223 Engineers than Planet 4, so does that mean the Planet 4 Engineers Predate the Sacrificial Engineer?

LV-223 Engineers are a match to us.... but then we could be a match to the Planet 4 Engineers too, there is NO reason that the Planet 4 Engineers are our Ancestors, somehow and that the Prometheus Engineers had Evolved or Upgraded themselves to become what they was... while still having same DNA they Augmented their Genomes.

There is NEVER given any Date for the Sacrificial Scene or Location as far as if you ONLY watch the Movie and IGNORE everything else....   So if we look at this, then the Scene does-not have to be Earth, it could be another Earth-like World, and it does-not have to be Hundreds/Tens Thousands of Years ago! (Yet Older)

We just see a Engineer (looks more like the LV-223 Engineers who are predated by the Planet 4 ones if we accept what RS said).  He consumes the Goo (if we accept Alien Covenants explanation well Davids).  His Body Breaks down, and then his DNA Falls Apart and turns Black and then Reforms... and NEW Life begins (we only see the Basic Cells).

Look at Davids Comments "sometimes to create one must first destroy" and the Murals/Frescos in a different light, and what we see the Black Goo do...

Then we could then consider the Sacrificial Scene was a Later Version Engineer who Sacrificed himself, with the Black Goo to Create Horrors related to the Substance.

We could then assume that the Engineers or some had came across or stolen the Black Goo or some other way they obtained it, and it was used to Create Such Horrors as we see in terms of Prometheus and Alien Covenant... but also they could have used it to UPGRADE themselves too.  Or they came across something they used the Goo on, to attempt to Evolve themselves, and this worked, but as a Off-Shoot one experiment Produces something Else and the Engineers are like WOW! and they Worship this, and they use the Goo/This as the Basis to Evolve Worlds because they Worshiped the Perfection they saw in this..

So this shows that by taking what we see ALONE in the Movies and Cherry Pick certain things as we choose and apply it to the Movies we can MUSTER up another Plot, that could then sound Plausible.

The Plot i mention would make more sense if those Prometheus Engineers are a Creation the Planet 4 Engineers made for a similar purpose that the Tyrell Corp had Produced Replicants...    Prometheus Engineers are Augmented with the use of Something, in Hindsight the Playing with FIRE had lead to the Horrors on LV-223 and Rebellion of those LV-223 Engineers... or just that the Horrors Created by Augmenting themselves too much.

We dont even have to have the Engineers Create those LV-223 beings, they could be shown that some Engineers had Augmented themselves, for a purpose, but then they became so obsessed with this that they took it to the NEXT stage and then become obsessed with that, and Worship it.

Depending what we use for our ideas, and wants, can alter what we get...  Its ONLY if you go by what say Ridley Scott says that we are then put on a Certain Track... but then RS ideas at one time, change to something else at another time too.

I certainly hope the Franchise is NOT canned... as far as another Movie or even TV Series...  because the Franchise provides a avenue for such Talented Artist like Dane to produce such Wonders like this.

The Franchise will always be able to release Games, T-Shirts other Merchandise, Novels and maybe Encyclopedia Books (WY Report) and i think Disney should consider Dane Hallets contribution and talent and HIRE him to do stuff like Covers, Art-work etc for Future Franchise Products.

Thank You Dane Hallet...  Happy Alien Day

"- Alien: Covenant is lazily written throughout,"

Some of it i would say yeah, Convenient and easy i would say, certainly. Which is why the comments by RS about the next one would NOT be about the Xenomorph, were a bit odd as following the same Convenient/Lazy Plot of AC you would Assume the Next Movie is.... Create Thousands of Eggs and get them on a Engineer Ship and then were are almost their to the Fateful Event of the Space Jockey.

@Gavin

I think we could ponder what you said as a way to look at things (Covenant is just another Nostromo, and Walter just another Ash).   I think we need to be careful sometimes about Cherry Picking certain things. I dont mean any disrespect by this.

Things Change.... 1979 ALIEN... Queens Did-Not Exist, there was NO proof they did... but then without the DC Cut and Source Material it was something that was open to be explored and introduce... so the Queen was born.

Looking at Source Material and Deleted Scene you could Raise a Argument that there should NOT be a Queen, but the Queen was shown and it has to be accepted (i agree with).  No Egg Morph in the Franchise (Theatrically), means this can be discounted... until shown OTHERWISE.

My point in Context... is while the Prometheus Extras did indicate about the knowledge of a Signal on LV-426, there is a lot that the Prometheus Viral and Extras had shown.. that to some extent appeared to be RET-CONNED to a degree (Happy Birthday David vs AC Prologue)  so the prior Knowledge of the Signal on LV-426 could be considered as NEVER happened... unless it was shown in Prometheus.

Looking at the Advent it appeared this was sent via a W-Y Interface and so using Technology after the Prometheus mission and is VERY likely sent on the Covenant after David had left Planet 4...   The KICKER is we have to remember David is a Robot... his Eyes work like Camera, so he can basically take anything he has seen and then Edit it like we could with Photos, Videos we use with Cameras etc.. and then add a Voice Over/Blog to go with them and then UPLOAD this and send it using the Covenant Ship.

I am not trying to be Argumentative or Condescending (or implying anyone thinks i am) i think reasons for such counter debates is to Suspend the Disbelief of the MESS that they have made with some Elements of the Prequels...   we can only HOPE that the Creative Department who will work on any Future Installment do take on the Likes/Dislikes of the Fanbase such as on sites like this, and Gauge what Route to go and they have to either go with what the MASSES would like, or stick to whatever they want to do, but be prepared to Disappoint Fans... 

There is NO future movies that can please everyone, that would be Impossible, all they can do is see what the Majority would want.. and assess what would make the most $$$$$   They Felt Alien Covenant would do this... ONE major flaw is the David Creates the Xenomorph Angle..... the other how exploring Dr Shaw and any interaction with the Engineers is what a lot of Prometheus Fans wanted.. 

Alien Covenant thought it would please Many by giving things to please all Fanbases... but it Did-Not give enough to each and was Flawed in other areas too.

I will leave the Bonkers David for now ;)

Regarding IF the company knew about David and Prometheus and where and what David had intended, prior to Alien Covenant.... if their Agenda was Obtain the Xenomorph, then maybe they could send in the Covenant, i dont think that would be ideal though... But who knows HOW wicked the Company are..

They surely would FIRST send out Synthetics to obtain the Organism/Eggs, certainly with a Contingent of Military and Scientist, but also have a KILL-SWITCH for the AI in case any become Rogue/Influenced by David.

Then when they get the Organism, they would set up a Outpost on some World, (like Hill and Gilers ALIEN) and then send in a few unsuspecting Humans at a time, or even use Convicts like we have in Alien 3, we can assume that IF they obtained Ripleys Queen from Alien 3, then those Convicts on Fiorina 161 would have been used as Test Subjects.... just as with the Plot to Alien Resurrection

IF we ignore the Company had any Knowledge prior to the Advent... then you would assume they would send in a Synthetic/Military Mission to Planet 4 and LV-223.

I will add that EXPLORING  the Derelict to be Ancient and FAR older than the Engineers Technology, then having the Ship have some Bio-Mechanical Ovipositor/Appendage to LAY or even just to Transfer Eggs from Cargo to the Ground could WORK if we ever take such a route..

Until we see Davids Xenomorphs without a Shadow of the Doubt get loaded onto the Derelict and then we get the SOS Signal and some kind of Clue/Answer that shows Davids Eggs then its all OPEN to Change...

"Regards Scott's statement. This only infers that the Engineers did not create the Xenomorph. It does not assert that David created the Xenomorph"

True.... but Ridley Scott had mentioned in other interviews how he felt having David as the creator was like more Sinister as a Plot, showing a Greater Hubris for Mankind.

Again things can change... they can still change any Plot that would indicate David as the Creator... we have YET to reach the Conclusion and regardless what other many routes fans may want... i think it would be HARD to find a High % who think the David Creates it PLOT was Great!

Its a bit Genius to a degree and a Shocking/Sinister Curveball.... but the ONE thing i think most fans can agree on was the Xenomorph was ALIEN and ANCIENT and the David Creates it PLOT does diminish a lot of ALIEN.

This Plot the Franchised should be called The Terminator or The Predator... but those names have already been taken... certainly NOT.... The Alien ;)

This was a great script. Great to continue to see it get use after the excellent graphic novel adaptation.

"It makes me wonder if this theory with the xenomorph as bioweapon is a valid one, I mean they can win a battle, but not the war. And when you have a devastating weapon as the black goo, why bother with the xenomorph?"

I think the points you raised are Excellent! I think we do need to consider the Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon is Flawed, it would be like using NUKE, by that if you wanted to Take Over a City, then using NUKES would render the City of NO use for a Long Long time, but if you ONLY intend to KILL all the occupants/threat from that City then the NUKE is the (Be all that ends of of our Weapons).

IF the Xenomorph was a Weapon would it be like Genetically Engineering something for the Purpose of Destruction, we could look at Many Organisms on Earth that could be Destructive if we could Engineer them in a Certain way...  Imagine ANTS/TERMITES the Size of Elephants, Imagine a Tiger thats Twice the Size, had Venom thats more Toxic than any other Organism on Earth, and this Creature can Fly and Swim..... if such a Creature could Procreate then it would POSE a major threat, especially to all NATIVE Organisms (larger than say a Mouse) apart from maybe Mankind who have Technology on their Side.

The Xenomorph could be similar a Killing Machine, and at the Time it was Created (prior to Alien Covenant) then what chance would Mankind from Hundreds of years ago have against this? NONE!

But such a Organism as the Xenomorph for it to be a Perfect Bio-Weapon would have a Half-Life, it would have a Limited Time before they DIE....   But if they dont have this then as a Bio-Weapon it really is something you use to DESTROY a World/Race without little chance of having any use for the said Worlds.

Ridley Scott said they are used to CLEAN up worlds.. which is rather odd, as they will Clean Up Worlds... but then that World would be of NO use unless you have a Weapon that can then KILL the Xenomorph... a Antidote of Sorts.

The Black Goo is more effective, but it has the potential to affect areas that maybe you would not... this would be like dropping a Viral/Pathogen Weapon that would KILL all Life and Spread... imagine if you had a Weapon that makes all animals it infects Zombies that then can infect others, thats one sure way to Destroy a WHOLE World.

Again Great if your desire is to Destroy!

The Black Goo, well the Original idea of the GOO and we can maybe include the Radical AI (all in one Goo) is a Creation/Hybrid and Evolutionary Tool that when misused can Destroy!

I think it would take a Big Post to explain what i mean about that.... but Alien Engineers Scarabs will give the Answer in a NUT-Shell.

"As for the sketches with the classic egg, chestburster and xenomorph from David's lab, I believe they are the concepts he wishes to achieve"

I think its just some cool concept art that Hatton and Hallet had done that was added for COOL Factor, which then can lead us to speculate all sorts...  Maybe its his Ambition/End Game or he could have created these Classic Chest Busters and then Evolved them, and at some point the Engineers Collect earlier versions of them that end up on LV-426..   Its all open to debate.

I think each Fan can use certain things to Counter Argue and Support their Conclusions, Wishes or Theories..  Some things are NOT so Set-in-Stone that their can be NO Shadow of a Doubt!  The Lander in Alien Covenant is Destroyed, Oram is Dead, Lope is Dead etc.. they are Set-in-Stone (find no evidence to say they are not)

Other things people can find counter arguments with..  Depending what you use for your Evidence and how you Interpret it, can lead to all sorts of Conclusions...

For example Ridley Scott says David is the Creator... but a Counter Argument is that Nothing was Clearly said to that Extent in the Movie, and well David was a bit Bonkers, he got that Author of the Poem Wrong so we cant take anything he said as Correct!  But this is like also looking at the Engineers Suits being a Different Color and Size to the Space Jockey as definite proof they are NOT the same, and despite what Ridley Scott claimed to be... so EVERY Flaw, could be used as Support/Counter Argument.

I am drawn to conclude that this is the Direction they was THEN taking (Alien Covenant) as the David Creates it FITS with the Hubris of Creation, and allowing said Creation Free-Will/Knowledge and then your Creation Rebels.  Some Fans maybe dont see or accept this, or have interest in such themes...

I certainly think we can all agree this route is  ERROR of Judgement.

I think IF we saw FOX have 100% Confidence to go the Planed route and Produced the Sequels that Ridley Scott had planned....  many Fans would be left VERY Disappointed, and it would be shown to be wishful thinking that David is NOT the Creator, and that the Space Jockey is NOT a Engineer...  it could GET worse... David the Space Jockey! or Daniels lol

The Original Idea/Plan was the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon that was Created/Engineered by the Space Jockey, and WHILE this may be changed for Alien Covenant, the Sequels are in LIMBO and their is NO Reason why they CANT change their minds again!

But its best to be prepared for the Worst ;)

I do think some of these replies etc are going a bit Off Topic, which i am Sorry for my part in that to the OP.. these are more suited to the David did-not create Topic.

Leto: I have heard about it at a podcast (Perfect organism podcast) but I have not read it. I try to keep an open mind to things like that so thanks.

Perfect.

Daliens:

Thanks for posting these pictures. I prefer the blue one with the long nose, the green one looks too much like some ghost that you could have in some cartoon.

Thoughts_Dreams

I am an Alien-movie guy not an alien-verse (things that are not movies) kind of person that likes to dig deep into things that are not about the movies.

However, I recommend you read the book "The Cold Forge". It's the masterpiece!

Setaverde:

A movie is fine if they have a good story and well-done characters.

“The alien movies are an epic horror gothic space saga. I ONLY want One thing from Ridley Scott in the Next movie, short dialogs, lots of horrible deaths, lots of gore, Battles between engineers, humans and Androids and New monsters created by engineers, David and the weyland yutani company-”

Doesn’t sound like one thing but more like a ten point list. ;)

There are interesting things that you bring up, some things I agree with and some not so much. You bring up dialogues as long as they are natural and reflect the characters that speak that dialogue then fine but they must be well done. Alien Covenant had better dialogue than Prometheus, it felt more natural which is at least something that it got kind of right. Deaths, you must connect with the characters otherwise we will be at Milburn and Fifield level petting a space snake again. Sure that death was somewhat yuck but the characters were goofballs. Gore, fine but it takes more than that even if they are good at making it seem real.

Humans going up against the Engineers seems like an interesting thing. I am less interested in the android part but if it is done well then maybe but the focus should not be on androids. The focus on that got boring after Alien Covenant even though it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter, it was too much about them.

Engineers seem interesting, we have not seen that much what they are about this far. Prometheus started to build that up but they were swept under the rug in Alien Covenant. Hopefully they will show us more about that if we get a third movie something that I am on the fence about, it depends on what they focus on (no more David movies, thank you very much).

BD:

“i have concerns if the Franchise Expands by giving us this Xenomorph that Spreads itself across the Galaxy, and in return we just diminish the Engineers and what the Prequels had opened up.”

I am not so sure if that would need to be the case though. You have often compared the Xeno to WMD’s, what if that is like an WMD that gets out of control or like a bacteria that has been grown for a purpose that spreads and infects things. This could be fitting in way and also it is something that a foreign life-form (Engineers?) have made that is not created by something that the humans created (androids), I would be more accepting to that compared to David being the creator of the monster.

As far as the Engineers are concerned right now it is more about David so if that would tear down the David creating it thing and make it more alien again then I am for it. It could spread to some places that would also be better because I think that there might be other places that the Engineers have seeded with life where it didn’t get right so they have used warfare on that also. Who is to say that earth is the only place? Maybe they have succeeded to keep those other worlds in check?

Sure it could be the way that you are concerned about but it doesn’t have to be the case though.

“I think to downgrade the Engineers/Space Jockey and to Emphasis the Franchise on Queens and Eggs is going to be a bit limiting...”

Yeah and I also wish that they would have covered the Engineers more but I would prefer it being about the Engineers and how they are related to the Xenos than about David. What you need I think is a better connection between those two, something that Prometheus failed to do no matter who is to blame for it. If we get a movie that is more about the Engineers and how the Xenos/monsters are connected to them fine but no more robot movies though.

Chli:

“I think Gavin has a good point when he says that the Alien Universe would shrink and become less frightening and less open if the Engineers engineered the xenomorph.“ (20190417)

What if they make the Engineers scary as F and let the Xeno be something that they found and developed from there? If that was well done and we do not get the whole explanation of how the Xeno came to be like only showing us A and D in a chain of A-B-C-D then it could work to me at least because then there is some mystery left but that no one should touch that so there is something to debate because that is some of the fun of it. This could be a possibility but you need good writers. What if we are given clues maybe less vague than they were in Prometheus and leave a lot of it untold? This is something that I can accept, more so than the idea of David creating it. I don’t think that this would contradict your idea of universes with different creatures and so on, I actually think that your suggestion of many systems seems interesting.

As far as the expanded universe is concerned I can not comment since I don’t really care about that. I am an Alien-movie guy not an alien-verse (things that are not movies) kind of person that likes to dig deep into things that are not about the movies.

“I don’t see the xenomorphs as intelligent enough to have an abstract agenda, more like ants.”

Maybe their goal is to reproduce and survive, as simple as that? I have don’t see them as overly intelligent life-forms although with some intelligence but perhaps that is scary enough.

2 and 7 are horrible, the rest are alright.

Interesting post BD, thanks.

Hox:

Well wasn’t there some idea that the ship was grown? I think that idea is sort of bizarre but it seems to fit into the bio(logical)-mechanical thing. What if the pilot is an Engineer and the Engineers in some way have learned to use some way to produce things in a way that is bio-mechanical. This is a reply to your comment april 16 about how the Juggernauts are created.

Well he did a great job at directing it and to get Giger there, at least he was a part that got Giger into it but this is not to say that he alone is behind the success of Alien. Your (daliens) post makes it look like Scott was behind most but to me it is a team-work so I think that you over-estimate Scott’s contribution.

We also need to mention Giger, Cobb, and O’Bannon I think those have the most influence on it. They are some of those that made Alien great so I do not think that it is right to make it look like someone is more important than the other since it is about team-work.

I will second what Gavin said, he was a part that made Alien great but now he acts like it is all about him (to quote Gavin “with his series of prequel movies he has staked ownership on the entire franchise, ownership he cannot claim IMO.”) and while also coming up with really crappy ideas story-wise. Some things are having David responsible for the Xeno, favoring a mad robot before the engineers and the monster.

“Fox put the brakes on Scott's Alien: Awakening, with Stacey Snider shooting down Scott's plans to produce an AI-centric war of the worlds...”

If that is the case that Fox stopped it then it was a good choice. I would refuse to watch a movie about a mad robot, screw that.

The Engineers are interesting, I would rather watch a movie about that than a movie about Xenos and androids.

Gavin

As far as I can see, David sent the Advent message from USCSS Covenant after the disaster on Planet 4. I don't think they were able to contact anybody from there (marooned like Crusoe). That's why David sent the rogue Shaw-signal, hoping somebody that happened to pass by would intercept it.

Oh, yes, it is!

Dane just uploaded the final poster and it's a beauty:

I was fortunate enough to snag all of these except the very first one.

Under these circumstances they can tell us next that the derelict and the Space Jockey are not thousands of years old, but they look like that due to harsh environment from LV426.

I wonder now if this was the plan even from the time of Prometheus. Remember the discoid ship that brought the sacrificing Engineer and that was not seen afterwards? Could be a ship of an advanced civilization from Earth that was terraforming,  building better worlds, belonging to an ancient equivalent of Weyland-Yutani. Ridley Scott said is not necessarily the Earth that was seeded, it could be any planet. 

The Engineers are not Gods  The Engineers from planet 4 are the originals. The Engineers returned to Earth in our antiquity and tried to influence the ancient humans in the right direction. They pointed to the sky showing their new home, to LV223 said Prometheus, but planet 4 was not far away, so that could be accepted as a misunderstanding by our ancestors or as a defense strategy, if you come this far go to our military outpost so we can stop you - planet 4 is "camouflaged" and undetectable by future Earth scanners.  Ridley Scott wanted to tell another story using the Alien universe as a canvas.

"I always think about how often we attribute what has happened to either our invention or memory. A lot of ideas evolve from past histories, but when you look so far back, you wonder, Really? Is there really a connection there?” (Ridley Scott)

Answering to a question if Jesus Christ might have been "alien" Ridley Scott replied, explaining as well why they tried to wipe out the Earth:

"We definitely did, and then we thought it was a little too on the nose. But if you look at it as an “our children are misbehaving down there” scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, “Lets’ send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it. Guess what? They crucified him. "

What do you think of this theory?

Are we alone in the universe?

Do not get me wrong, I am not a supporter of David being the creator of xenomorph. Until recently I believed that David only created his own variant of xenomorph by reverse engineering the Engineers xenomorph. So I accepted everything that backed up this theory. This was after Covenant, because after Prometheus I could not even imagine that David could play such a role.

It was only after I discovered the Giler script for Alien when I started to consider this possibility, because, as BigDave put it, "the Red Cylinder Draft is basically the ALIEN we got" save for the alien origin of the Pilot, derelict and the beast.

With the route taken by Covenant we kind of return to Giler script, where the beast is a bioweapon produced by the Company and the pilot is humanoid (still alien, though, but maybe it will be revealed that it belongs to an advanced ancient civilization that left the Earth millennia ago - I have a theory that the planet seeded at the beginning of Prometheus is planet 4, because of the sculptured heads on the mountains from planet 4).

So I don't try to argue or impose my theories, I just want to understand what is going on, so I share my thoughts here with you.

A talented editor, Terry was very outspoken and humble, a truly good egg; you will be sorely missed.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to Terry's family. Give Dan, Hans, Harry, and John our best.

David Giler's vision that the Alien was created by the company was rightfully shot down when they made the original Alien.

Giler's rewrites of Dan O'Bannon's script were done for one reason only, so that Giler could claim ownership of the script, the characters depicted therein and the production rights to Alien and subsequent movies using said characters, This he was successful in doing as Brandywine Productions (Giler, Hill and the late Carroll's production company) holds the production rights to Alien, and have lived off the profits ever since.

However, Giler's rewrites were superficial at best - he changed character names, eliminated the alien origins of the creature and added corporate conspiracy through the addition of Ash. The name changes were cosmetic, the change of the aliens' origins was reinstated back to Dan O'Bannon's original vision during production, and the inclusion of corporate conspiracy, although praised by modern audiences was a tired and overused trope of science fiction used through the '60's and '70's.

Having David be the creator of the Alien is, for me, against O'Bannon's vision and justifies Giler's mistreatment of O'Bannon, his undeserved ownership of the production rights, and his greed. Giler not only stole Alien from O'bannon but also drove David Fincher off the production of Alien 3 and forced Joss Whedon to rewrite his script for Alien: Resurrection to cater for Sigourney Weaver's needless return. Now it appears he is, through the return of Ridley Scott to the franchise, attempting once again to impose his generic and unimaginative recycling of bad science fiction tropes onto a franchise and property he did not create but has greedily profiteered from for the past 40 years.

I have two words in reply...

Fuck that!

Let's be honest here,

Each of us has our own beliefs as to whether or not David created the Xenomorph, and being the rabid fans we are can pull up multiple pieces of evidence to support our case. Yes, that is essentially the whole point of a debate, but in all honesty, we could do this forever; bouncing facts back and forth in support of or against Chli's opening post. The truth is there is no truth - the Alien franchise, is narratively and in terms of continuity a convoluted mess of mystery, inference, intent, contradiction, and ambiguity, that could with the next movie be taken in any direction; as Alien: Covenant proved.

I personally feel a bit way to debate this topic, rather than going round in circles with endless facts, would be to state our belief and the reason why we believe what we believe, not in terms of evidence but more in terms of what purpose it would serve the franchise.

For example, I prefer to believe that David did not create the Alien and that it was created by another party because to make David the creatures creator makes us the center of the universe in a franchise called "Alien".

For me, the alien has always carried with it three connotations...

#1 - One of the overwhelming dark, empty, remorseless nature of space.

#2 - One of the cycles of birth, death, rebirth, and creation.

#3 - And one of fear of the dark, the unknown and the unseen.

To me, David being the creator of the Alien negates the connotations #1 and #3, while taking the franchise away from Dan O'Bannon and H. R. Giger's vision.

dalien: To me, an easter egg is something almost hidden in the background which you might find if you look closely. It is therefore not important for the story. In Prometheus, the camera is focusing in on the altar and the mural and Holloway is studying it. The “xenomorph” creature is clearly meant to be seen (hinting at Alien) but the eggs and facehuggers would probably be hard to detect in the cinema.

This is a ceremonial room and on the altar, there was supposed to be a cup (like the one the sacrificial engineer at the beginning of Prometheus, drank from). The one drinking from the cup would either get some of the traits from the “god” on the wall (physical strength, long life perhaps) or turn into (mutate) into the “xenomorph”.

According to the quote by Messing the engineers created the xenomorph, long before David was even “born”, for the purpose of wiping out unwanted life on worlds they had seeded. The quotation at the end by Huante shows the sad aspect of production falling apart which is clearly seen in the ambiguity in Prometheus, even more confused in Alien: Covenant.

I agree with your thoughts, BigDave. I ponder about the fact that we see different variations of “the xenomorph”. It takes traits from its host and eventually wipes out competitors (which is the way evolution works) as in “The Thing”. The question is what the species (if it is a species) originally looked like? What is its real appearance? The X?

The same goes for if the engineers created it through the black goo. It appears in different shapes depending on the situation, host, and also probably how far the pathogen has been developed? It might have taken the engineers millions of years to develop?

The trilobite can also have been developed through an egg, namely Shaw’s, by the way. This would then also show the perpetuity of “the xenomorph” life cycle.