Comments (Page 272)

"To be fair, SW is also in trouble - they are running out of ideas. And their characters are naturally dropping of and out. "

To a degree YES.... but actually IF done right there is potential there than just being about the SKY-WALKERS and Characters in the Franchise...  

Spin-Offs could have worked... Rogue One was good... there is a lot of potential to cover different things, with just loose Cameos....  rather than having to Cover in Depth Characters we have already seen... such as the Solo-Movie and so maybe they could have had the same problem if we got a Obi-Wan Movie or a Yoda one.....

A Bounty Hunter/Criminal Underworld movie could have worked... Han-Solo is this in part... but i would argue such a movie that IS-NOT about a Main Star Wars Character we have seen in numerous movies, maybe would have been better with NEW Characters and only Cameos of some of the Bounty Hunters from Star Wars.. inc say Bobba-Fett and also Jabba the Hutt but not cover these as much as how SOLO covered Han Solo.

I actually thought SOLO was not to bad.. people i know who Boycott it due to the FARCE that was the Last Jedi!

There are other things they could do with Star Wars... to much to mention really, but it seems they now seem to want to stick with the Sky-Walker Tale which will end with Kylo-Ren in effect becoming the HERO..  its quite predictable and more so... i would not be shocked if he DIES in saving REY.... she is FORCE Pregnant with his Son/Daughter and we then get another Sky-Walker EP10-12 ;)

In context to the ALIEN Franchise i worry that Disney will feel the same and that more Emphasis on Ripley and so her and her daughter are the Sky-Walkers of the Franchise!

I hope not!

I will say one thing that will certainly HOLD TRUE for the Franchise, that is the Xenomorph in some form or another its what the ALIEN Franchise is associated with, by Virtue of giving us a ALIEN Prefix Prequels it sets up Fans to expect the Xenomorph in some Incarnation or another to be in the Movies!

Just as with any Star Wars movie it would be expected to have the STORM-TROOPERS and Empire in some incarnation or another (Clone Troopers, Storm Troopers, First Order Troopers).  you would also have to have the Weyland Company Implied in any movie too, as they are in effect the Empire/First Order of the Franchise.

I think Alien Covenant dropped a big mistake in killing of the Engineers instead of expanding on that Mystery and Enigma.... much like The Last Jedi had done to SNOKE... his Character and History are something that also should have been expanded upon but SLAIN for no real good reason. Well a Plot Point Reason.. just as Davids Bombardment of the Engineers..... when so much more could have been done instead.

So WHAT WE HAVE NOW..

Is a unfinished prequel, were Fans are going to want to see a Action/War kind of Epic that features Xenomorphs and Engineers used in a Dust Up just as we saw the Predators and Xenomorphs in AVP.  or at least Disney will feel this is what most fans want.... but may make more money.

Interest in David has dwindled, its likely most people would not want to have a movie thats about HIM and what kind of a World he would Create and WHY,  they will just want to see Humans arrive at a World where he has his Xenomorphs, and get in Trouble and then Engineers come along... and make things worse for Humanity...

And a case of Davids Creations vs Engineers....

WHOEVER WINS.... WE LOOSE!

"What do you do? I saw numerous times how this frustrated people. Perhaps, even on this forum"

Certainly i can understand that this applies to some, i am very open to other peoples views and interpretations and i hope i never come across as FORCING my ideas are the RIGHT idea.. The Prequels are ambiguous but there are things that can be read from them, but they require taking on board much more than only seeing the say 2 hour Theatrical Run-time of each Movie.

I kind of understand what you mean about the NO real Philosophy as in context to whats actually shown in the Movies alone... i guess a lot of the Themes and Philosophy come from those who look at what the Movie has teased/hinted and then think deeply about how these themes and philosophy can apply if you try and think about it.

But in the Movie, its not so clear to most... Prometheus was a movie that RS had said the intention was to ASK Big Questions, where do we come from, what is a Soul and Quest for Immortality and so the viewer has to look at RS comments and try and connect how Philosophically this can connect or especially more what it DOES-NOT show, but what you can think about when taking his comments on board.

To a Regular Joe who watches Prometheus 1-2 times, and sees some them comments from RS, they would not conclude what he was saying, because the movie does-not clearly answer were do we come from!  It just says MAYBE we dont come from where you expect  as in a Magical Gods Creation or the Result of the Big Bang and Evolution.. the same can be said for what is a Soul.. Prometheus does not really give any answers...  but when looking at RS comments after Prometheus and in the set up and after Alien Covenant, it is something you have to think about for yourself and so indeed i could be just interpreting what he meant and thinking is he thinking similar to me, when he could completely not be hinting towards exploring that Philosophy and that as Weyland Said.. David has NO SOUL...  And Maybe Mankind Does.. and its that Magical Spirit that goes on after DEATH.. but i dont think thats what it was about at all...  But i have covered ENDLESS times that Immortality a Soul as in Consciousness that lives on when we Die, is maybe something that NEVER exists... but something similar in terms of a AI actually could offer BOTH.

In Regards to Prometheus being a FLOP.. i think as i covered the Fact this was the First Alien movie in a while and Ridley Scotts returning, a lot of people would have gone to see it just as they would have for the Star Wars Force Awakens.  (obviously not as much) it was fans expecting this movie would be some kind of Prequel... the Marketing may have helped too.  But the movie got a lot of Criticism compared to its Box Office...  

Alien Covenant maybe suffered a bit because some fans was just not interested in a Prometheus Sequel.... it really was a odd one as im sure FOX by Virtue of giving Fans the Xenomorph expected this movie to have done just as well as Prometheus.....  Even the Xenomorph did-not save it.

So i think yes, Ridley Scott should have got to carry on with what ever he had planned, which seemed to not revolve around purely showing us the Xenomorph and its Origins.

And i agree to a degree about the Starship Troopers comment, i have said on here a number of times that a majority of fans and casual viewer would be more in tune to watching a Aliens meets AVP but replace Predators with Engineers type of Action Popcorn Flick, than trying to do a Alien Universe Blade Runner cross over type movie through the Creation Eyes of David instead of Tyrell.

" just recall when you were a teen and full of energy would you've taken seriously any movie or a character in the movie that was only interested in living a bit longer"

I was a bit different ;) but i kind of get where your coming from, when i was younger it was not quite the case you mention as i was still interesting in movies like Bladerunner etc... but i also really liked the Pop-Corn Flicks..  I liked Alien and Aliens, and i was not a fan of Alien 3 much.. but as years go by, Aliens started to just appeal as a Popcorn Flick, and so it Grew Less Interesting... where as Alien 3 Grew on me more... so if i was back to being a 14-21 year old then YES a Aliens may seem better than a Prometheus,  as we get older i agree we kind of like the more Thought Provoking Good Story Movies than Action and Effects.

"To be fair this was what RS was implying we would get in the final installment"

Its kind of hard to gauge what RS is really on about at times, but certainly his War of the Worlds comments seemed in part tongue in cheek, but in part its like this is where he thinks they could go with it.. should they allow him.

Certainly in Context that has to hint towards having the Weyland Company + Military aware of the Engineers, and seeing  Davids Xenomorph as a Weapon that could protect them... The Engineers would certainly feel threatened by the Fact that LV-223 being abandoned has led to Weylands Creation, creating  a Horrific Weapon... would they like to also get their hands on it...  While the Engineers would certainly want to make sure Mankind and David are Destroyed so that neither can claim and influence the Galaxy away from the Engineers.

It potentially opens up a PLOT where after the Engineers discover what became of Planet 4 and determine that HAD the Earth been eradicated they would not have been in the PICKLE they are now in... they would surely not be content to go and find David and Kick his Ass, Destroy what ever World he has built and then Stomp Out the Humans who are also there....

So indeed you would think the Engineers would be coming to Earth... but that conflicts with the Franchise, unless they FAIL and Davids Xenomorphs prove to be the Final Victor.

But then the potential is there for the WAR of the WORLDS to be about other Worlds..... who knows if this was to be the case, but certainly the Engineers must have created life on more than just Earth and Hanged  Out only in the Zeta 2 System.

Certainly if RS felt the Franchise should be going for a Star Trek and Star Wars..

Welcome aboard and i really like it nice work ;)

What are you talking about? The basket is good. Or what do you think an engineer can transport one egg?

Thoughts_Dreams  combining the Engineer with the Easter bunny so you get an Engineer with long ears and big teeth?

I actually brought the same idea up to a forum member who has the chops to pull it off but the individual is afraid of fanboy wrath and probably will not do it.

BigDave,

there are a few things I wanted to say about the movies and thus make my take on them more definite. I apologize beforehand if this looks like a ramble and is offtopic, which it probably is.

Subject, philosophy and the marketing

Lets not kid ourselves - when you say there is philosophy in the movie, that is nonsense - it is just the trick pulled upon the movie goers by movie makers. The philosophic aspect here is just a front, a facade, tactically used to attract "thinkers". Notice, thinkers in quotation marks, because there is no thinking involved in it, really. Therefore and instead what you get is a fraction of people who think there is a good ground for thinking here - I suppose that was the goal - to attract a section of people, passionate, "hardcore" thinkers that can see the deep ideas on which movie is supposedly made, which are not all that obvious to the uninitiated and thus you have this supposed and fictitious asymmetry of information, a gradient between those who are supposedly in the know and those who are not. The later fraction is much more numerous than the "thinking" fraction, and it would be in the commercial interest of the movie makers for the thinkers influence those who might have had low expectations from the movie - thus encouraging a repeated viewing or attracting the first timers. This is essentially what makes viral ideas work, I guess - it is when the word on the street is that this is the thing, the zeitgeist - the must have one and if there are enough such mentions you might succumb. The ultimate goal is to make people to spread awareness and create an intrigue by word of mouth. The movies were created in their inception from circa 2010s (P - 2012, AC - 2017) and viral spread of information on internet was already a known thing. And this phenomena was incorporated into the movie and its marketing. Recall all those extras. They certainly tried bona fide marketing assault and played by the books, but it didn't work out.

As for thinking and thinkers. It is bonkers to think that these movies will tell you a story of origins, creation or anything of the sort. At the same time it is not completely bankrupt either, after all it tells a story based upon non-mainstream but still well established stories. It is rather reasonable to assume that any such ideas conveyed to you from the screen are at best aberrations of stories written in books decades ago. And in a way it is naive to expect some novel idea watching a movie. And most of the time the ideas conveyed on the screen are castrated and perverted to suit the 2h or 3h viewing.

So you would be better off reading from the source most of the time. Especially if you are inclined to think - see the original, not an interpretation. Be cognizant at least that it is an interpretation contrived specifically for you to get entangled in. And more you explore and discover the grounding ideas the more elated you are. But all you are doing is shining a light on some contrived factoid in a collective psychosis. And this is why, I suppose, thinking in this imaginary world is rather futile.

On the other hand, the subject of the movies in itself needs to have just enough consistency and some grounding in reality, otherwise even your imagination will discard what is presented to you as complete rubbish - it would feel complete waste of time if the movie is doesn't tell somewhat consistent story. But if it has a somewhat intriguing background, enough mysticism and consistency you might relax into the movie. But working out possible future developments based on details provided, I can only imagine, has frustrated many people - because your idea no matter how worked out it is and logical it might look like is just as good as the other insane idea of someone else with much less consistency. Here is an example : suppose you write a novel based upon the movie - then comes a lunatic and posts an idea which totally rubbishes your thesis and your postulates. Guess what, his rubbish is not worse than your beautiful story. And what if he might even have developed an aspect of the story elegantly? Perhaps an aspect which you never even considered worthy pursuing. And here comes in a somebody and writes something which looks even better than your story. What do you do? I saw numerous times how this frustrated people. Perhaps, even on this forum.

See, an imaginary environment such as this Alien universe doesn't really reward thinking or has clear set goals or standards to lean on - this can be frustrating to many, even for its original writer/creator to satisfy the people who like to "think" in this environment. In fact every bizarre(stupid) idea is just as likely to be real - because it is all fiction. And so lets not make something big out of this. The philosophy is shallow, and it is all pretentious crap - do not expect to learn some truths, logic, history or anything of that sort - instead it is all a fable. And as such it has a canon writer.

Movie critics

Btw, that is why I believe Ridley Scott is quite right to say that critics do not matter. Especially movie critics. Because all they are arguing is an absurd position where they are arguing the movie director for making this choice or the other. In Ridley Scott's case this is especially poignant because the man is the writer, a god of his universe. And when a critic shows up and gives a smug review and gives say 1 stars out of 5 that makes me laugh. It is funny because RS is usually very good whipping out somewhat good movies and who are those critics? What are they upset about? Therefore he is right when he points out that critics have no ground when they argue his choices in his universe. Dig up the critique of the lady who gave a scathing review of Blade Runner, which if you read up makes a whole lot of sense on its own. Here : "Baby, The rain must fall" by Pauline Kael ( http://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2016/12/28/blade-runner-review-pauline-kael/ ) 

That is the thing - who are the critics and what have they achieved, despite how legitimate their argument is in this particular case? You know, when you are arguing an aspect of a neverland, you are quite justified of shooting the messenger in that world - especially if you are a director/writer, ie, creator of the neverland. That is why critics don't matter. And there is a case that their rave reviews don't do much for financial success of the movie  - case in point BR 2049. So critics don't matter. Like at all.

Fans and their delusions

Now, do fans matter? I argue that no, they do not matter - they will watch the movie anyway - they will still pay to see the movie. Even in movies like LOTR did fans matter? Arguably they did. Peter did excellent job - simply fantastic. Most of the fans were happy. Then, watch what happens with his Hobbit adaptation - where fans happy? Nope. Were the movies a success even with religious zealot type of following complaining? Yes. So it turns out fans do not matter. Perhaps they won't buy memorabilia if they don't like the next installment but they don't matter - they will still watch it. What matters for success is the word of mouth - the viral aspect - the first few weeks of the movie predict the financial outcome at box office. What if there is a sharp decline in viewings? Can it be that people don't think it is worthy to recommend to someone else? See when you recommend something to somebody else - you put your reputation on the line. On the other hand when you get only a few recommendations you won't think much, and this is what happened with BR2049 - too few fans knew about it and the story was not and they again didn't matter because in that case the 30 years between the movies a number of canon short stories - who is going to pay that much attention? Fans will, but will general public care? The answer was silent but overwhelming. Good word of mouth matters, not enough and the movie falls through cracks, just enough of it - you get a sense that everyone and their mom is going eventually you will feel obliged to follow. Recall the ramble above about hardcore people in the know, the influencers? They might just do it. If not, it still can flop you know - if not they are pushed onto forums and there they argue this or that, like we do here but do we matter for future directions of the movies? Absolutely not. At best we might be used as guinea pigs even though I doubt it. Writers like Lindelof have their heads so far up their ass - after all they know better, right? And they would be justified to ignore the fans just as well. I guess in future we will see people promoting movies by employing the IG, twitter and youtube stars. There will be less and less reliance on traditional old style critics reviewing and giving stars. In a sense, you could say influencers(don't like this word) will eventually replace the movie critics/reviewers if not already.

RS and what kind of world will he create

Now that's out of the way and having the benefit of hindsight we can safely say this: Prometheus and its story telling didn't matter. Even though the movie did all right - after all it was a major announcement, 30 years after the Alien, legendary Ridley Scott is giving you the story of how life began. The marketing was quite promising - there was enough interest and traction in it. But it flopped imo it did all right but it didn't set the world on fire. Certainly it was nothing like say SW TFA or Rogue One. AC was even less successful. So much so that the whole franchise is in question:

P has IMDB 7/10, rotten tomatoes 73%-critics, 68%-audience, budget $130m and $126m US/$400m world returns.

AC has IMDB 6.4/10, rotten tomatoes 66%-critics, 55%-audience, budget $97m and $74m US/$241m world returns.

just for reference:

Rogue One has IMDB 7.8/10, rotten tomatoes 84%-critics, 86%-audience budget $200m and $532m US/$1.05B world returns.

So inflation adjusted, AC did significantly poorer than what P did, despite the fact that it had the beast and was using the classic recipe.

AC is even more interesting to talk about in the aspect which shows that the world created in the Prometheus doesn't really interest people. Although it is interesting and intriguing - just look how many people loved the engineers and all that...yet it was a flop. Anybody has idea why?

Whatever it is, you have to give it RS - at least he does a research when he embarks on his projects. He takes a genuinely interesting concepts to explore. Sometimes he manages to weave a solid story and delivers masterpieces. Sometimes there is originality to it - he views an interesting topic from interesting perspective. He always directs them very well - his movies, have best visuals, designs, props for the money he spends on his movies. Sometimes his movies do not do commercially very well. BR is a flop btw money wise, even though it is an excellent movie. Fundamentally he picks an interesting angle of a intriguing topic, say AI and considers it in somewhat original aspect : what if the AI is emotional. Prometheus was of course a story about search for immortality.

While I am skeptical Ridley got that initial idea himself, even though he very well could have - he got an interesting story - he certainly produced a very beautiful picture, augmented it with sleek score and put enough cherries in it - with designs, quotes and actors. It all looked very well done. But that is where it ends. I actually think after 5 years of P nobody cared that much - people moved on and eventually forgot about the intriguing points of Prometheus. Now financial outcomes of past movies are affecting the future. So in the end of it all we somewhat know where the movie is going - these all being prequels to Alien. And whatever route they take it all doesn't look too pretty - it won't matter.

Epilogue

Ironically, I think a movie like Starship Troopers in alien universe with epic scale all out war can help save the franchise. I mean the cliche movie sequence which induces camaraderie against alien species(all of them engineers, whatever) - this can potentially pull out the franchise out of the slump. Forget this soul searching.

Despite being an interesting idea, being mortal(and looking a way out of it) is the last thing worries youngsters - just recall when you were a teen and full of energy would you've taken seriously any movie or a character in the movie that was only interested in living a bit longer. This won't work for young people. For Ridley and 30 somethings perhaps this makes a lot of sense - people who have seen death where their relatives or friends have passed, those who where totally fine had to go. Those experiences are prevalent in your later stages of life, I would imagine. For youngsters - it is probably the last thing that bothers them. I would argue religion, god and all that is swept even further down under the carpet. Instead they should aim for mystique and excitement-thrill mixed with making people scared. Plus something unknown. Sex sells, something like Shaw-Holloway might work. But the big catharsis has got to be the war. I would argue anything else is going to close they horizons even further.

But I would argue that Disney should abstain from pinning this franchise to any particular human actor or character. They will probably make most money in the long run from the beast and its image rather than from selling say faces even as iconic as S.Weaver. Instead they should make the beast and its mystique the main character, which it obviously is. No Skywalker kind of character will carry the future of this franchise. Besides, I think they should make the revelation of the identity of who the chap in the chair a minor thing - a side story. Instead of collapsing the possibilities, sidestep the issue and go for broke and make an all out melee. They have built up enough of conflict between WY, David, engineers, colonists, T & Daniels - some of them should go and do so in dramatic fashion. There is too much canon fodder running in there. To be fair this was what RS was implying we would get in the final installment.

I mean they have nothing to lose at this point anyway, right? I am still not 100% sure - therefore asking the people who consider themselves hardcore ALIEN fans. Although I suspect they, those fans, have checked out a long long time ago :) They probably went AWOL after A3.

Having seen how it all has played out I have to say it is damn tough to produce a movie which is interesting, exciting, explores relevant futuristic mainstream ideas(doesn't have too much baggage) which can be extended to a series and be commercially successful all at the same time. Even Ridley is struggling. Inadvertently I am reminded how Ridley once said that the lack of interesting movies is due to fact that genuinely interesting, sufficiently worked out ideas to explore are missing. That is a damning call out for Lindelofs of this world. The technology is here, the actors are damn good these days - no shortage of new faces with probably huge talents - it is the fables that are holding Ridleys back.

To be fair, SW is also in trouble - they are running out of ideas. And their characters are naturally dropping of and out. Who do you thin is David in SW world. I argue that David and the beast are as eternal characters in ALIEN world as are 3CPO and R2D2 and the BB8. SW are lucky they have this chewie thing. Every other character from the originals is about dead now. This should supposedly support the idea that they shouldn't develop characters like Skywalker, they get impossibly boring quite quick and after they are cooked, it risks alienating main audience. Also, characters proved divisive should be dealt with swiftly. Can you imagine if they had that Jar Jar Binks in all of their subsequent prequels? So while I am curious how Ridley finds his way out of the corner he has boxed himself in, I am not optimistic.

Welcome- that is a great intro right out of the gate!

Could you show it in side profile?

Welcome to the forums! Thanks for posting this, fantastic work!

Jonesey always knew when to hide. Cats place self interest above all else. We saw several Xenos die but never witnessed Jonesey's death. I think Jonesey was last seen chilling on the rescue ship in Aliens. 

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Big Dave, i figgered it out:

The company clones Doctor Elizabeth Shaw and the scientists achieve to create a Deacon in laboratory, using the trilobite embryo extracted from her in human guinea pigs experiments. With This creation, they form a strong aliance with the engineers, because..they worship the Deacon. Walter was also recovered  and repaired by the company. They brought him to earth with shaw's remains, the source of the DNA that allowed the creAtion of an improved Elizabeth Shaw. This Elizabeth Shaw has all the memories of the original and She Tells to the company what David has done to her. Walter tells to the company and to the engineers What David has done to the local comunity of engineers, the habitants of planet 4, and how the paradise was lost. A joint mission, led by doctor Elizabeth shaw, with human and engineer's resources- some "derelicts" and military's human space ships, has a new destination, Origae 6. The final showdown is on the way.

CURIOSITY Killed the CAT!

And some Black Goo/Xenomorph Mice would surely spell the end of Jonesey ;)

@Thoughts_Dreams

I felt Alien 3 was good, but it started for me to become a limited route for her Character, i think the ENDING was fitting... if she had survived and we got a sequel about Ripley out to stop the company getting their hands on the Xenomorph i would likely had got a bit fed up of the same idea over and over.

Regarding David.... indeed he has been painting more of a Evil Psychopathic Megalomaniac and to hinge a Franchise on this Character is not going to work on its own, you need some Hero's even if at the conclusion these Hero's Die in a worthwhile Fashion (like Ripley in Alien 3) 

We really only have Daniels and Tennessee has the Anchor Characters to continue with, and i just never really got Tennessee maybe if he is not a Milburn... he definitely is a Poor Mans  Hudson..  i just never got him as being a serious Character is what i meant, and Daniels is a bit Wooden.... 

There is scope for them... but the ENDING ruins this... because Daniels knows who David is.. and so how does Daniels play any role in the next movie, and interact with the Colony, unless its to show she has been held captive and assumed Dead.... then she escapes and the colony then realize WALTER is not Walter...

What we have then is Tennessee while he may be Goofy, i think he surely would be suspicious of what ever excuse WALTER (David) has regarding the disappearance of Daniels.  and so David would have to get rid of him...

You then have a Movie about the Colonist, and Walter, where Daniels escapes and reveals who Walter is.. and then the $"£%^$ hits the FAN!  You would have to then work out how less/much time do we see Daniels before she goes AWOL (locked up) and in the mean time its about WHO are we going to have as main Characters to interact with Walter/David until the %£$%£ hits the Fan!

some Fans may find it hard, because we have David as Walter but we all ready know who he is and so the THREAT is there for us, we already know where its going to come from so there is no big surprise for US!

You could argue the same for ALIENS... when Ripley is heading on the Sulaco to LV-426 we all ready know those Marines are going to come across Eggs, Face Huggers and Xenomorphs..  the added surprise that we was NOT so much aware of (first time you saw Aliens) was the Queen.

So the Problem with any sequel would be the Fans know who WALTER is and that he is a Psycho we would be just waiting for when he unleashes the Xenomorph or has to deal with the Humans once his Charade is over!

This could WORK... had the Ending left it where Daniels had NO clue to who Walter really was.. the reveal that she knows who David is... and David knows she knows.. really does make things a little hard...

You have to look at the Movie from DAVID as he is in control... and how can he go and either set up the colony and pretend to be Walter, or Create his own from Embryos...  with Daniels alive and knowing WHO he is..  and killing her or hiding her away will ALERT Tennessee that something smells FISHY!

I dealt with this... in my ideas for a sequel... by having Walter (David) have it that Tennessee was to blame for the Deaths of the Colonist, that he and a few others Sabotaged the Mission and intended on Destroying the Covenant.. so it follows the Origins Novel Sabotage Plot...

But then when Daniels is discovered to be alive.. and reveals what Walter/David had said is NOT true then things go to POT!  (off course i had 3 variations of what happens to the Colonist/Embryos but the fate of Daniels and Tennessee is the same in them all.)

The Big Problem is indeed HOW do we introduce other Humans... and HOW well written they are.

Colonist?, Child Colonist, Raised Embryos?  they could all work, incoming Humans? Certainly if they are unaware of the Advent Viral Message and so WHO David is.

I think in Context to this Topic (its not quite a where to go next in the Franchise) but only as far as where NEXT after Alien Covenant.

The Set-Up is to conclude the Prequels and their Path from Prometheus to Alien.  that by Virtue of the Alien: Prefix we are expected to March Towards the Inevitable which would likely conclude with HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs ended up on the Derelict.

And in regards to that you have to follow a few Rules (i am talking in regards to the Inevitable), and so the CONCLUSION would be to show or explain in a lesser ambiguity than Prometheus.. WHEN/WHERE/HOW those Eggs came to be on the Derelict.

Leaving the Story Started with Prometheus and completely ignore what happens next to the Covenant, in favor of a different approach HAS to then lead to another explanation/route that indicates with not much ambiguity of WHEN/WHERE/HOW those Eggs came to be.

The Ending of Alien Covenant like Prometheus is pretty open to exploration but it sets up the likely path to go where the TWO main Characters are heading... with Prometheus this was David and Dr Shaw and that Hijacked Juggernaught.

Alien Covenant only really sets up where David and the Covenant is off too and what happens to Daniels... HOWEVER... by Virtue of the Advent Viral Message, it opens up a potential PLOT where the Company sends a Ship to Planet 4 or LV-223.. just as the disappearance of the Prometheus and Dr Shaws Warning could potentially had set up a mission to LV-223

A Movie regarding LV-223 could therefore be done and disregard what David is up to... to a degree.. a Mission to LV-223 would be kind of like a Prometheus MK2 where this time the incoming Humans could be placed in more ALIENY peril like the Alien Engineers Draft.   Such a Direction would still leave people wanting to know about the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHERE the Eggs got onto the Derelict.   And so this leaves us with the Problem that this would have to be Answered, at least to a lesser degree of Ambiguity... 

So more concrete Clues would have to be made that does-not have to show HOW/WHEN/WHY the Eggs got onto the Derelict... but it has to indicate either..

*The Eggs/Xenomorph had existed before the Prometheus Mission.

*That LV-223 shows that the Eggs/Xenomorph was never around before the Prometheus Mission.

Doing either and especially the 2nd would leave some Fans still wanting to know what happens with David and the Covenant, and if its shown there was NO Eggs before David, then the Fans would still expect to see HOW those Xenomorphs from Planet 4 make it on board a Engineer Ship that is heading towards or leaving LV-223/426

so its kind of got the Franchise caught between a Rock and a Hard Place!

I can see some Fans are not pleased with David the Emphasis on AI, Creation and Philosophy and a tale of Hubris, but to carry on the MARCH to Alien, by brushing aside David like Dr Shaw was.. is maybe not a ideal route to go. 

Its just going to be a HARD juggling act to try and please everyone... looking at the SET-UP for Alien Awakenings Sequel, i can see most fans would not be much interested in what David chooses to do/create.  They would rather see Xenomorphs or Similar and Humans put in Peril by these..

This really only limits you to a few kinds of PLOT.

*The David conducts experiments on the Covenant, before things go to POT!  And some crew awaken to find part of the ship has become a Xenomorph Hive of Sorts that was Quarantined off..   i Proposed something similar after AC came out... but it has more of a Aliens+Alien+Alien Resurrection meets the movie Pandorum

*The aftermath of Davids World going to POT kind of Plot where a incoming Human Ship arrives to find most of the Colony Deserted, and uncover a Xenomorph Hive! This would just give us a Aliens meets Alien Resurrection Re-hash!

You maybe have to Juggle similar to the above with covering in Part David and what happens just prior to things going to POT!

I am tired of waiting years for a 90 minute movie with plots and characters as complicated as this. They should move to streaming series to develop. 

While we are here why not make a movie about Mr Jones fighting off xeno mice and xeno cats?

Everyone knows Xenos and cats are allies.

"Did you like AC? Also, at this point lets recall what happened at the box office - it didn't do too well, did it? If anything it did worse than the Prometheus"

I think thats a interesting thing to debate....  maybe in part, there was a lot of interest in PROMETHEUS because it was a return to the Franchise, a Potential Prequel so some fans expected more connections to the Xenomorph and what happened to the Big Chap in the Chair...  and it was Ridley Scotts return to the Franchise.

Maybe with any kind of sequel... there could have been a % of those who saw Prometheus and plain and simple did-not like the Path it was heading and so in a way Boycott seeing any sequel.    This is by no means Factual...  i just feel that the Higher % Box Office for Prometheus was expectation driven.   And a Lower % for Alien Covenant to some degree was maybe Fans not having expectations and decide to pass, and wait for DVD or Cable Network.  i dont think this is the biggest cause for the difference in Box Office but i think it may played some part.

I think maybe like Solo a Star Wars Movie.. i know a few people who have Boycotted the Franchise  after the Last Jedi Farce. I never saw Star Wars Solo at the Cinema, but when i eventually did get to watch it, and ignoring Box Office i was surprised it NEVER did as well, compared to how Very Well the Last Jedi did...  I saw Solo 3 times and its not too bad.... ok its not as good as the Original Trilogy or Rogue One... but it was not as STUPID as the Last Jedi which i FORCED (no pun intended) to watch again and well i think it has more Stupid Elements that even Phantom Menace.

So maybe Disappointment of a Prior Installment can affect the potential Box Office of another?  I think Star Wars EP9 would be a Good Yard Stick to judge that!

And i think this is where we are in the situation NOW... Disney cancelled all Anthology Plans due to the disappointment of SOLO...

The situation we have with Alien Covenant... it is highly likely more than likely that it would not gain as much interest as Alien Covenant had.. its a BIG GAMBLE..  i certainly feel to expect a % Return like Prometheus did, would be very very optimistic...  

And with Disney they would not take Gambles!  If they pulled the Plug on Star Wars Spin-offs it does not bold well for another ALIEN movie for a while... especially in continuation of the Alien Covenant Set-up which has written them into a Corner.

I think the average JOE or lets say 70% of who would see a Alien Covenant Sequel would not be interested much in the Philosophical Themes, or what kind of World David creates, or Colony Daniels manages to set up...

They would likely be wanting to know WHEN the Xenomorph Appears and HOW/WHEN it gets on the Derelict... which if we have TWO movies to get there, i think a majority would not want to have a Movie about a Colony, that then goes to POT when Humans and Engineers Arrive.. they may be waiting for the 3rd Act to get to these scenes.. like some may have been waiting for the 3rd Act of Prometheus to give us some connection to ALIEN which it never did.

I for one would be interesting in something different and done mind having to watch 2-3 hours of something else before we get to more ALIENY Shenanigans leading to the Derelict in the 3rd act of say a ALIEN COVENANT 3 ... i just feel average Joe and Fanboys would want to have a more Alieny Plot/Path in Alien Covenant 2.

Means maybe a AC2 would be better off being a AFTER-MATH of what ever World David would build.. but i think he should still play a part in this aftermath.

You raise some good points Thoughts_Dreams..

I would say that ALIEN the Characters were not extremely well done, they gave us that Space Truckers so regular working folk kind of vibe, i think had Alien Covenant had the Crew minus the Mercs.... and so a bit more time was spent on the likes of Karine, Faris, Oram, Daniels, Tennessee etc then i think we could have connected with them as much as the ALIEN cast.

I think what worked with ALIEN was by the 3rd Act, Ripley had been built into a Character that worked... more than Daniels and Dr Shaw...  But the real EVOLUTION of Ripley was in ALIENS as we have her as the Survivor from the first movie and we really could then pick up from her story and evolve it...

Had we got the ENDING that Ridley Scott wanted with Ripley being killed, then we got a sequel that had NO Ripley then i am not sure we would remember her Characters Impact as much from just ALIEN.

So in part continuing a Franchise with a Survivor from the Previous Movie is usually a good thing to do, and you can then improve on any criticism of the Character from the previous movie.

So what i am saying is if say the next movie they kill off Daniels off screen or early on, or we never get a movie that continues her story....   IF they make a movie where they introduce us to NEW Characters, if they plan a sequel after this then they cant keep introducing Characters especially lead Characters to then KILL them off, or they play NO role in the sequel...

This does-not mean you have to make a 2-3 movie Trilogy about a Character, you can KILL the Character off provided they play some larger role in the movie and pass the Torch to another Character.

For example...

Alien Covenant 2... if Daniels does not appear, then if they introduce another Character, then they cant have a Main 1-2 Human Characters DIE-OFF they have to survive and play some role in any sequel...

You could have Daniels play a Smaller Role, say 30-40% of the Movie, then have another Character or TWO from a incoming Human Ship interact with Daniels and then have them be the Survivors, as long as they play again some larger role in the sequel AKA Alien Covenant 3 but you dont have to have them become some kind of NEW Ripley.

Regarding Amanda... if we are talking a Movie, then indeed 2 Movies with her could work... but if we got that plus countless Game and Comic/Novel Appearances it could make the Character Repetitive.

I think looking at it for being something they could try to harness for various purposes is most likely the best scenario, we only need to look at Davids work in Alien Covenant and he had basically spent years combining the best Traits of Various Organisms to accomplish his Xenomorph.

The Xenomorph is thus a combination of many Organisms most Perfect Traits and so from the Companies Stand Point, i think trying to Engineer These Traits for Medical, or Military Purposes makes more sense than just to obtain the Xenomorph as it is for the use as purely a Weapon.

If we ignore the David creates it ARC.... then we can ask the same of the Engineers... maybe the Xenomorph was a way to Harvest Traits of many kinds of Organisms... so the Space Jockey Race could then collect the Eggs or separate Egg Morphs (if we assume a Egg Morph does not make a Egg but a Cocoon of the Hosts DNA) so it may be used to destroy a Population but then leave behind Cocoons that can be Harvested for the DNA

Only had a quick check to look the Effects/Alien in Question, and indeed there is a bit of Xeno-Virus Aesthetic there, but it does remind me more of the Warhammer 40K  Genestealers (which took influences off ALIEN) and to be fair numerous Video Game Aliens and some Sci-Fi have used a similar Aesthetic as we see in the Hybrids in this Video.

It does remind me a little more of a Genestealer Hybrid

Within Context to the ALIEN Franchise i think there is plenty of Potential to explore Xeno/Human Hybrids be that a movie set within the Franchise but not directly connected to the Prequels... or indeed we could ponder what kind of a World David would Create if he can Merge Traits of his Xenomorphs with the Human Embryos

I certainly dont imagine Zombie Fifields though ;)

Something that combines these below... but retains about 75% Human DNA/Aesthetics.

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Thoughts_Dreams

I believe in public debate and therefore in trying and hearing lots of opinions. But I also think they need to be tried a bit so that the debate is not about something completely unviable. And by that I mean that is not worthy to entertain something that is least likely to appear on the screen - even though what appears on the screen is uncertainty, still some ideas are more likely than others. With that:

1) Did you like AC? Also, at this point lets recall what happened at the box office - it didn't do too well, did it? If anything it did worse than the Prometheus, which means that potentially less people are happy with AC than with P.

2) Do you see how what you propose is essentially just the same as AC? Where another mission comes along to the planet to discover an eventual threat from an already overly cooked beast. In the process you discard David, Daniels & T as if they were not there at all and have nothing to tell. Besides, this story would not make any progress on the front of marching towards the inevitable - recall the goals is to somehow reveal who the big fellow in the chair is. Or at least imply who might end up there and under what circumstances.

In light that what you describe seems like a tried idea, which has already flopped and discards main characters and therefore makes the story telling potentially even poorer do you see how this actually makes it all a bit of a non-starter?

Above all it doesn't tell a good story - essentially you propose for everybody to forget what happened in past movies (P & AC) and instead concentrate on a fresh, new 5-6 faces and have them slashed the old style, with the novel element being that now WY learns about the beast and that it wants it. Did I get this right?

There are lots of good shorts on Dust- I was only being specific with Xeno influence for this particular short.

I Raptus 8:

Thank you for your response

I am looking forward to reading about why we like the old characters but not the new. To me it is simply because the old ones were better written and /or executed. Yes they were not perfect but they were performed better.

Hmm, I think that they should sit down and think about what they are trying to tell with the story. Maybe have a book of guidelines (not dogmas) that they can follow when they do the movies, like a things to think about kind of list. I am not sure if they were kind of structured in how they were approaching this one. You got to have a plan when you are trying to make things like this.

The problem with Shaw isn’t that she was not like Ripley, her problem is that she was irrational and annoying. About replacing Shaw with Daniels, I don’t think that replacing her was a problem in itself. The problem is that Daniels wasn’t well done either but she was not the only one with that problem to be fair. Once again there is a director that cares more about the themes than the characters. You have the same director for two movies in the same universe and two movies in a row have the same problems so something must be going on there. When I say well done I mean that I did not get how she was as a character. I mean I understood how Ripley was, Clemens, 85, David, Walter, Ash, Dillon, Hicks, Vasques. I did not understand that much about how the characters were as persons in Alien Covenant. If you look at Tennesee, Daniels, Carine, Faris, for example then you try to explain how they were as characters I bet that you would get a difficult time trying to do that, I know that I would. My point is that they almost didn’t have any personality. Do you agree or at least understand my point?

“Does that mean we will get a third lead character in as many films?”

If we get a third one that is, it seems very uncertain right now. I am not sure if I want another prequel, it depends on how they do it. They need to get better writers that makes me at least understand how the characters are as persons because that have not been the case since Alien 3. Don’t give me another movie filled with blank faces (although there are some fairly well-written characters in the prequels), I want characters that I can understand how they are.

As far as I know the alien franchise puts things from the real world and put into a fiction story. Maybe Weyland Yutani is a bit extreme but it is somewhat grounded in reality like Ripley as a whistle blower and WY that does what ever it can to get power a bit exaggerated in Alien maybe but still rooted in reality. A corporation that would be soulful or what ever would go bankrupt since it would lessen its profits so there fore I think that WY is a somewhat useful metaphor for a corporation in general and is far from the good guys. They might think about ethics but then they choose money when it all comes down because that is what they goal is, to get as much as possible so they us the Xeno for money and not for the common good. That is the corporate culture so they must do what ever they can to stay competitive so if they have to F someone over they do it.

They might try to make it so they use it for good while it is using it for bad in reality.

It is nothing there that suggests that they try to understand the Xeno for the better good. I think that Ripley’s ideas from Alien 3 still holds “they don’t give a fuck if a friend of yours has died” (something like that).

NinXeno426:

I think that the ideas are fine (like what happens when we die, about the place of AI, and so on) the problem is that ideas are not enough to keep me interested. To me the human journey means the most, how characters are written and done and how they interact with each-other. Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3 got this right but then it fell apart. You are right that they do not have to be likable to be interesting, villains for movies in general can be interesting if they are well done enough like the Riddler in Batman for example.

"It's the fact that Ridley is more concerned with the over all scope and concepts than characters"

I am not sure how much of the problem that Scott adds but in his interviews he often speaks about AI, God, and that but he very seldom talks about the importance of interesting characters. Unfortunately this is a problem since he has a lot of say in this and he seems to be much about the ideas rather than characters and that shows in the movie. How much that is his fault can be discussed but he very seldom talks about the importance of characters, for him it seems to be about ideas and ideas are not enough.

"Also it comes from short sited screen writers who more often than not are just guns for hire,no real passion or understanding for the property."

Maybe but they also need to understand what the movies are about. They are not about AI, they are not about the Xeno. Go back to the first three and you will see that it is about characters that face real dangers and how they handle that. When Scott talks about AI and God in the context of the franchise it seems to me that he doesn't understand what the franchise is about. He is a director, not a story guy but he interferes with the story which messes it up. Get someone that can write humans and then do a movie, they should not make another one until they have solved this problem.

BD:

You were bored with how they with did Ripley in Alien 3? Interesting, I never had a problem with her until Alien Resurrection when they made the clone thing. Winona Ryder as an android is the reason why I watch Alien Resurrection sometimes. Speaking of Alien 3 I also cared for Clemens and even some of the inmates even though they had done some terrible things because they were well written.

If the androids are well-written I can feel for them also, Bishop (Aliens) is one example. When he gets torn apart by the Queen (a lot of people should have watched it by now so I mention it) I am like “noo” because he is sympathetic and well written. Even when C3PO gets blasted into pieces I feel for him (Star Wars 5). These two have in common that they are well-written so we feel for them (even though C3PO can be annoying at times).

I understand why they did what they did with the David thing but I still think that was a mistake. They should have made David more sympathetic and made the Engineers the threat. Having him as the enemy was bad. Maybe have David connection with well-made human characters to fight the Engineers who in the end take their creations and try to get rid of humans would have been one thing, at least it would be better than what we got. Faris and Lope were not very well-written I think. How was Tennesee like Milburn to you? I never saw him like that even though I didn’t get how he was as a character. To me characters got to have well-defined traits for me to work. Oram had this he was insecure, a scientist, that was still religious, and he made mistakes, I also understood how David and Walter were but the rest were blank slates except for maybe Faris. Whoever was/were responsible for the characters failed. Walter was alright but I can see how you think that he had some traits like Shaw had but he was never annoying to me although Shaw was. Tennesee and Daniels did not have much of a personality to me, I was like “OK, so?”

“I think David gets a lot of the Blame about it being about him a lot mainly due to the Failure for how the Xenomorph was not done enough justice and time, and Daniels Character... which if BOTH were done better would have not made David stand out as much.”

To an extent but even if Daniels would have been done better (which would not be difficult to achieve, why not get someone that knows to how to write human characters?) and if more attention were given to the monsters I still think that it would have been too much about David. Let’s say that 50% of Covenant was about David, even if they would have cut that down to 40% it would not have made much of a difference, right? My point is that they focused on the wrong things which were the androids. Fassbender was good as them but it felt like that is what they really wanted to tell with the movie so everything else became secondary. The problem is that when you shall have horror you got to relate to the humans or else the movie will fall apart, which it did towards the end at least. Also David was too evil so that made him non-relatable to me.

"... it leaves little space to have his Character Redeem himself so anyone can feel any Empathy for him.... "

So screw him if that is the case. There has to be the good guys that I can support, a movie where a psychopath is the main focus does not make me care for the movie. Sure sometimes movies about someone with a questionable morality (doing bad things to prevent something even worse) can be interesting but then there is a need for a balance but now there is not and David just comes across as evil or a psychopath. Not sure who is to blame for this but the franchise does not work when someone with a warped mind is the focus the alien franchise isn't like that and they should have understood it when they started the prequels or at least when they were making AC.

“It appears that RS feels the Franchise needs something NEW and thought provoking.”

The Engineers seem interesting but if he thinks that David is what is thought-provoking then forget it, I don’t like it. Robots have been done before (say Data the robot, or I Robot).

“This has to be the route to cover... but i feel Alien Covenant has somewhat reduced the potential of that... and seems to be more about the Xenomorph in context to David and AI.”

Yup, and that doesn’t work

“The Set-up also shows us David is in control of the Covenant Ship...”

What ever, I am not really interested in the adventures of David or whatever world that he wants to create. He could have wanted to create a planet of various Xenos and I would not care because it is about David.

“The MAIN Problem we have is that a lot of Fans are NOT pleased with the David Creator route... and more so would not be interested in sitting for 2 hours of a David and what would he would Create PLOT before the Engineers arrive and $^$& hits the FAN!"

That seems that it would be worse than AC, at least AC was one hour of David which was more than enough.

 A two hour movie about David would be boring.

“are 2-3 movies before we get to ALIEN..“

With the disappointment that was Alien Covenant he would be happy if he will get to do one more, seriously. The company that releases a movie wants to make money and if they do not do well then why support another? I am not interested in another movie like Alien Covenant.

The egg basket looks a bit dumb but the rest looks alright. Maybe they decided to put in some silly joke there. :D

Speaking of Easter jokes, how about combining the Engineer with the Easter bunny so you get an Engineer with long ears and big teeth?

As far as the SJ goes I still think that it is a bald humanoid kind of thing in a space suit. This is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. I have never understood the thing as just being a space suit, that makes it look like a suit that is programmed as a robot that walks. Having it as a suit with a bald humanoid life-form makes the most sense to me.

So we continue from Alien Covenant, when we start the movie they are at the planet. They have already made the city/settlement or what ever you want to call it. David is gone because he knows that Daniels knows who he is.

There are families living there and the planet is habitable. It is not very nice but at least it is possible to live there. They have done tests for pathogens and terraformed so they can live there so we get rid of the problem of breathable air.

The company knows that there are monsters there so they want it for warfare. They get there with the excuse to get rid of it. When they get there the monsters have already killed many in the colony and David was killed when a cave collapsed. I don’t want it to be as predictable as David being killed by his creations.

Very few have seen the monsters which leaves the creatures in the background. Soon people start to disappear (monsters) and no one knows why (which keeps a feeling of fear in the movie). Since the main characters (let’s say 5-6) are better written we care for them.

For some reason David has kidnapped some people in a lab (or that he has embryos that he experimenting on, I have not decided about it) and has attached them to machines to turn them into monsters so they start to change (something like Holloway in Prometheus but way worse). They try to free them but some of them have already transformed so they attack them.

He has a role in this movie but he is kept in the background (I got this idea from a Batman comic). This keeps David in the movie but it makes the movie to not be about David or robots.

We have some war between humans and ex-humans. This could be some theme about creating super-humans when genetic manipulation goes wrong. Both the humans and the monsters got to be done interesting. Since the monsters are very intelligent that means that the humans must really try to do their best to try to kill them, this could raise the stakes and be something that is different from the other movies but the Xenos understand in a way that they are not dangerous to them so they cooperate with them to destroy the human characters. Because they are partially immune to human weapons the characters must think of different ways to kill them (fire anyone? Stealing the fire, Prometheus *hint*) Some people might think that this idea sucks but that is OK, we all have our opinions. This would give us new monsters.

The humans become scattered and some of them are killed. Chaos erupts and they got to gather so they can make it together. Some get killed (we don’t see that) and it is up to the rest to make it alive.

My idea would be about manipulation of DNA, human cooperation, environmental damage since the humans have decided to start their life on another planet because earth has been damaged a lot by climate change wars, for example. It would also be about friendship, compassion (people can be assholes IRL so at least they could be civil in a movie), and cooperation (they got to cooperate against the threat).

I am sorry if this has got a lot of ideas that has been done before or if I have not been clear enough or if it seems to not be very well structured. At least I made a try so I hope that some people enjoy to read it somehow.

They did a good job with it. Not much character development to speak of (it was like AC in that way) but it was a really short movie but I still enjoy it for what it was. I understood that she cared about her daughter so that was a part of her personality but the rest? I don’t know.

It felt like a mix between Resident Evil Apocalypse the way it was shot and The Walking Dead. Maybe I am wrong but that is what it felt like.

A plus that we see it from her perspective.

Thanks DK

Taken another image from the Concept that shows 6 heads and mirror imaged that through the Center of the Fire/Circle which is more clearer of the Center than the first attempt with the other image...  This reveals that 12 Heads could Circle Perfectly.

I then went back to the other image which was shown not dead center so you never saw the Fire/Center, and its hard to adjust where the center is due to the Angle of the shot but i suspect if you accounted for the missing proportion of the Semi Circle you could likely had fitted TWO more Heads.

Realized i had covered HOW MANY heads before in this Inside the Temple which seemed to amount to 10.

But the NEW topic i was going to do but placed here is not so much the relevance of the Number, be that 7, 8, 10 or 12.

But more to discus this place being the Council of the Apostles and a Meeting Place and then what connection does the Circled Floor have... and is it to indicate each of these Apostles Regular goes to those places or just to indicate they each come and go Separately to different parts of the Galaxy to conduct their Business and then Return.

If these Apostles regularly come and go, this means they are Ancient Beings indeed...  and maybe why the Engineer Crowd would be so Excited to see the Return of one of the Founders/Hierarchy of their Civilization...   But how WONG was they..

If these Elder Apostles are still ALIVE then someday SOME would return and well i bet they would not be pleased to Discover what has been done to the World they Hold their COUNCIL upon..

To have any Engineers Turn up would not be a Good Thing... to have one of the FOUNDERS return would surely be something that David would not like when THEY get their hands on him.

This is all just theory and interpretation.... but it does draw me to conclude these Beings in the Hall of Heads.. either Set Off to Various Parts of the Galaxy to Seed/Govern, or they set off to different places and return once their work has been done.    The Question is are any of these Beings in the Hall of Heads still ALIVE?

If Ridley Scott suggests they are SUPERIOR then is that to Mankind? is that to the LV-223 Engineers, is that to the Planet 4 Engineers... bearing in mind the Planet 4 are referred to as the Originals...  yet this Hall of Heads is their Hierarchy.

If this means these Hall of Head Apostles are Superior to the other Engineers (Planet 4 and LV-223) then maybe these are NOT the kind of guys you want to UPSET..

Maybe room indeed for ONE or more of these Superior Apostles to RETURN and maybe even be much Taller than our Engineers...

Could one of these GUYS end up in that PILOT CHAIR on LV-426?

"I think the hall of heads might also be a council, a political importance, not just religious."

Indeed totally Dark Nebula... this place is of Great Importance, it is a Place that reminds me of a Council Meeting Place.... a COUNCIL OF ELDERS...

Which is where for a few weeks i had Planned a New Topic but having came across this, it FITS here so no need to take up more Website Space.... so here is what i was going to do with a New Thread...

THE COUNCIL OF ELDERS

I watched Alien Covenant again a few weeks back and something dawned on me, that had a few times before but i then forgot to discus it on here...  Again this time i have remembered to.

The Cathedral is a Important Part of the Engineers City, a Cathedral and as such some may think this means a Religious Connection/Place but a Cathedral is usually also a place of Conference and Assembly for the Bishops.  A Council if you would.

Ridley Scott/Chris Seagers also indicate to us this place that contains the Hall of Heads, is of Great Importance and is where the Engineers kept all their Knowledge...

They also suggest these Hall of Heads are the Hierarchy (Order above the Engineers) Wise Men (Very Ancient or Long Lived) the Apostles (those who pass on/spread their ways) and Superior Beings (superior to who).

The Purpose of a Apostle is to GO AWAY and spread the Teachings/Ways of their Leader/God... if you would... so in context of the Bible its those who go away and spread the Teachings of the Bible to as many as they can..  In context to the Engineers it must imply these beings in the Hall of Heads are tasked with GOING AWAY and teaching the Ways of the Hierarchy to many places.

Now i would like to draw your attention to the CIRCLE Patterns in the Hall of Heads

There are many other images, including Concept Work that seem to show the Floor is kind of like a ANCIENT STAR CHART.

We see at the Center their is the FIRE... maybe this represents the EYE the Center of the Galaxy?

 The Hall of Heads.. floor has a similar pattern of Circles, but then we have Circles within the Circle, many of these are just before/beneath the Heads.

Is it possible that Each of these Elders was tasked with Governing over a certain part of the Galaxy, a Certain World?   They would GO too and FROM this place to Spread the Engineers Ways, and Return just as a APOSTLE would?

Could the MAP be the Universe in part and each Circle near each head represents a Galaxy that each Elder played some Great Role in?

Each Head also looks different to the others, slightly, some look very Prometheus Engineer, while others look more Human.   Maybe we need to look at what Chris Seagers had said..  " I don't know if you call the Engineers a race, but they're a civilization, "

So maybe each of these Elders/Hierarchy in the HALL OF HEADS are slightly different?

Certainly seems maybe this place was where they would MEET and use as a COUNCIL and keep their Knowledge/Teachings..

Do the Circles on the Floor, represent Worlds, Constellations or Galaxies that each of these Apostles would go to/forth from?

Nice to come across this Old Thread... Saves me Making a New Thread....  I forgot to reply to some of the newer posts on here.

INDEED... 7 is a important Number especially in context to some Religious and Mythical Texts...  such as there was  Seven Archangels but also 12 is another Important Number, such as the 12 Disciples/Apostles

Ridley Scott referred our Hall of Heads to the 10 Apostles but then RS is prone to make the odd mistake and he could have meant 12?

@Dark Nebula

Thanks for the Share... indeed we see 7 were Made, but also there is NO Point making more if they would not be shown/shot due to where the Cameras would be set up.. If we assumed there was 12 or 10, but the Camera Angles that would be shot would only show up to 7, then it saves Production Cost/Time to not make the Unnecessary extra Heads.   This is why we dont get the Full Heads for some, some are Cut off lower than others the Heads Closer to the Cameras seem to be only Created until Below the Eyes but the ones in the Foreground are Build up to past their Eye-Brows.

I have taken the Image you shared and done a mirror image of it to maybe give us a view of what may behind the Cameras.

The Semi-Circle is now made kind of WHOLE...  Head 1 and Head 6 seem to Mirror at the same point and so in theory should occupy the same Location.

Head A in this mirror image No-Longer sits around the Circle, and so we discount this.... well Head A is likely where Head 7 now sits.   If we look at the Hall of Heads as being a Circle Room with Heads Spread Out Equally, then this image we can count 10 Different Heads... maybe this is where Ridley Scott said the 10 Apostles but there could be some Margin of Error (there could be a bit more space between where those Semi Circles Meet up, that would allow for TWO more Heads.... so i think its likely the HALL OF HEADS does contain 10/12 Heads.

I have yet to read the Book... i do recall something about this was a DREAM from the CEO of Yutani.  Could it apply to the Engineers?  Its sounds like a description of the Poster to Alien Covenant which had all those Engineers and Xenomorphs on it.. but who knows..

Regarding the Many Engineers.... Good Catch, i have NEVER noticed that before... i had only ever paid attention to the 8 Elders in that scene....  But indeed it shows us that MANY more were Watching Beneath the Pebble Ship.

This certainly opens up something to discus..

"BTW, I would like to hear what hardcore ALIEN fans want to see in the sequel, should it come out. Come on, spell the beans."

Totally Agree....  i think the Franchise Fanbase is Fractured a bit.. i would assume more of the ALIEN Fans would be open to the World of Possibilities that Prometheus had started, but some may have yearned for something more Surreal more HP Lovecraft, more ALIEN (HR Giger), i feel a majority of ALIENS Fans would be more interested in the Company, Marines, Ripley and Xenomorphs.

Those who were captured by the Aspirations of a Plot that Prometheus had opened up, would surely like to deep more deeper into the Engineers and Connections to Mankind and what else they have created.  And i think many may enjoy the Philosophical Elements.

But we are now in ALIEN Prequel Territory were we are on the Inevitable March to ALIEN..   Where a Majority are interested in HOW/WHEN those Thousands of Eggs get on-board and Engineer (Space Jockey) Ship and HOW/WHEN it arrives at LV-426 it seems many would not want to SIT-THROUGH another 1-2 Movies that revolve around David and what he would do NEXT...  and would mainly be interested in WHEN the 1979 Xenomorph comes into play, and the Engineers... with some maybe hoping the Space Jockey will NOT be the Engineers and the Xenomorph is NOT a creation of Davids.

I think RS ideas are too ambitious for Pop-Corn Generation, and even the Alien and Aliens Fanbase may not be 100% pleased with the Direction the Prequels had taken.

I really would like to get some Feedback on what some of that Fanbase would want... but i think it would likely be for the Majority to Hurry Up, get us to LV-223 or LV-426 Already and Drop David! like Dr Shaw was Dropped.

"they lack something fundamental : they can't reproduce sexually!"

"His children are diminishing in their number as they are roaming the universe in hope to find the solution"

Something like this could have happened, some of your post could have happened in the Past... in context to another being instead of David however...

This is similar to what was presented with our Engineers at conception of the idea, a Race, Ancient who had accomplished some kind of Immortality by Engineering themselves, Perfecting their Genetic Code, making Enhancements... Living for Thousands of Years...

But this eventually lead to them becoming Sterile.. they could NOT Procreate no more..... Hence they had to find other ways to spread their Gene-pool which is when we arrived at the Reason for the Sacrifice.

This was the Plot of the Engineers that Ridley Scott and Jon Spaights had come to, but then after Prometheus they seemed to have other ideas... RS saying at Prometheus Release that they COULD Create Life in other ways but the Sacrificial Route was how they CHOOSE to do it.

If you found a way to eventually Engineer the Human Immune System to become Vastly more Efficient so that its can Fight Diseases and Toxins to near 100% Success Rate, you Engineered the Genomes so that Defects, and Ailments which include Cancer are Eradicated....  You found a way so that your Organs and other Body Parts would Regenerate.

After Hundreds of Thousands of years, we could contemplate the potential for the Species to NOT require the ability to Reproduce...

So indeed as you suggested, if David Engineers those Embryos then potentially we could see them lose the ability to Procreate... or maybe would David REMOVE that so these beings can only Re-Create with David in Control.

Certainly is a Problem the Blade Runner Franchise looks at... the Creation of Superior Humans,  but given a Kill-Switch of a Limited Life-Span....  Once a Replicant could live for 100, 150, 200 years or more... this could become a Problem... ONCE they can also Procreate... this becomes a potential MAJOR Problem for Mankind.

You could consider would David be weary of potential problems with his Creation?  Or does his Aspirations to be God-like and Ego make him overlook such Precautions?

" another planet where engineers left their seeds - after all it is unlikely that engineers had only one planet, like earth"

Certainly and this is the HUGE potential of the Plot... which seems to have been limited with Alien Covenant, because NOW it appears our Engineers come from Planet 4 that is in the Zeta 2 Reticuli System, and they build their Outpost Facility (LV-223) in the same Constellation.  Which means so far EVERY encounter with Engineers and their Technology is Confined within a Years Travel for Human Star Ships in the Time-Line of 2100-2120.

Origae-6 is a further 7 years+ away... it would be too much of a Coincidence if this place was ONCE home to the Engineers or a World they had Seeded in the past... But you can NEVER RULE this out!

But i would argue surely the Engineers are around and seed many Worlds, they come back to Planet 4 from time to time, and its been at least 10 years before any Visit by others to Planet 4 as from the Moment David arrived, until the END of him being stranded on that World... with we can maybe assume NO other Engineers returning, means they could Possibly be away to other Worlds that are VASTLY further than our Earth Ships by Weyland-Yutani could reach at this time... 

So i would like to think the Engineers play a role in Numerous Worlds in our Galaxy and Beyond at Distances that are FAR from the reaches of Human Technology even at the time of Aliens in 2179.

"The earlier post is another way of history repeating itself only that now David's children are the engineers and the story starts over :)"

Certainly... i think, well i interpret that the Themes and Patterns we are seeing repeated OVER and OVER..  We may have a Humans Create David, who Creates Super-Humanoids..... but prior to this we may have Engineers who Create Super-Engineers who maybe Create Mankind... who knows how many Layers of Creation appear above the Engineers and maybe similar Events Transpire over and over, and so indeed IF David creates some Superior Humanoids we could see this Repeat itself in Future.

"I mean what is more left in this universe to explore?"

I would like to think there was SO MUCH that we could have explored, and indeed similar Creation/Sub-Creation Events could have happened over and over...  The Engineers Plot and Virtue of their Navigation Systems have other Galaxies does mean we could be LIMITLESS in the Worlds and Creations we could explore.

Ridley Scott mentioned Star Wars and Star Trek..... well the Engineers Plot allows for Many Many Species to be Discovered.

You're welcome guys!

UPDATE: the pre-order price has now been reduced to £29.24 at AMAZON UK

"Is some other Race who being the ones behind the Technology and the Humanoid Race Serve a Function, are they Enslaved? do they have a Covenant that requires some Sacrifices?"

There is something close to your question above in Alien: Covenant Origins BigDave....on page 1. 

"Dying in their sleep would not have been so bad. Dying of old age, or an inability to reproduce, or even of disease would have been tolerable."

It was never made clear who it was in the book but another race was being overwhelmed and torn apart by "things". The listed ailments that were tolerable in regards to mortality left out what they currently faced, below.

"Bodies were ripped apart, exploded, sundered, until dismembered skeletons began to pile up against the sides of buildings like white foam from a wave. A tsunami of blood ran down first one street, then another......The shapes-the things that roved and raged and ravaged among them-were imbued with an implacable urge to kill." 

It was never clear if this was discussing the Engineers or a xenomorph wave but both are feasible with what we have seen in Aliens (xenomorph wave) and Alien: Covenant (Engineer streets) but "skeletons" tends towards those devoured on Planet 4 when David arrived. 

Was the Engineer sacrifice an attempt to stop this punishment from someone else similar to what happened to those described in the opening of Alien: Covenant Origins?  We still don't know.

Many Engineers

There were sections of the above video that included things I hadn't seen (or missed) before. There were many Engineers there to witness the event shown in the opening of Prometheus.

I enhanced the below photos to show the scores of Engineers witnessing the sacrificial Engineer and the elders from the opposing cliff under the large Engineer ship. It could be a hundred or more across the clifftop.

I missed this before and realize that this is a deleted scene but it is very interesting to see so many there for the event.

All of the Engineers packed back into the ship and headed for the clouds before the swarm erupted from the sacrificial Engineer.