Comments (Page 534)

Possible... I think its left a bit ambiguous...

A lot of concept work like this went into the Workshop of David and you have to wonder from inception i.e drafts if the intention was as we see in the movie as far as all those pieces of paper David wrote on and the Experiments.

I feel a lot started as concept work and are there as Easter Eggs because it looks cool, we have the Original Xenomorph, the original Eggs as well as New Eggs as far as drawings.

Could this mean David discovered the Original Eggs? then Evolved them? maybe but it could maybe had meant nothing more than a Easter Egg.

But since the Advent Video etc, we have to assume indeed these are all part of Davids Experiments and Processes... which could then indeed show he encountered or created a Original Chest Buster.

That he then Evolves....

The Female Human is interesting as we know David experimented on Female Engineers, but some of those drawings do look like a Bald Dr Shaw.  But some of these could have been drawings of Davids Imagination rather than drawings of things that actually happened.

Certainly would be interesting to get some more insight into all of this, maybe in the next movie.

BigDave  It occurred to me, very recently, that Alien Covenant shows David giving life; he celebrates the birth of a xenomorph, and lets the palace occupy both humans and neomorphs and xenomorphs. David is a symbol of life's nexus, a force that can act as a gateway to different parts of a hierarchy.

The lower hierarchy is the cause of the nexus, as it represents empathy, making the upper parts hostility. David reflects hostility against hostility to connect empathy to the lower parts. However, perhaps the problem is that empathy needs to be a reaction to hostility, a problem which was created by the nexus.

1. Hierarchy/ Upper = awareness

                    lower = no awareness

                    nexus = false awareness/ correct ignorance

2. False awareness is empathy, but it's also correct falsehood.

3. The upper hierarchy has the power of correct awareness, but is restricted by the weakness of the lower hierarchy. If the lower hierarchy is correct ignorance, that means that the upper hierarchy has no obligation to the lower hierarchy

4. The upper hierarchy needs the nexus, which is David. David needs to orchestrate a way for the xenomorph race to be embraced by the Engineer race

Alien Awakening needs to be about David convincing the Engineer race that the xenomorph race deserves a chance to become self-aware, and to co-exist with the rest of the universe

I will have to invest time reading all the information... and the Novel.

But my conclusion is David experimented with the Neomorph Mote Virus and various Life-forms using the Black Goo to create Hybrids where David used Female Engineers and Child Engineers/Babies for his experiments.

Until he had exhausted those.. and nearly at Perfection.

Then i think He experimented with Dr Shaws Egg Cells to Perfect the Organism, before he then created enough Eggs and then unleashed one of them on Dr Shaw and then Removed it prior to Chest Bursting.

BigDave

Well put brother :) Reminds me when Shaw asked who created the Engineers. I LOVE this Creation/Creator story and feel it fits quite well with the Alien franchise and the narrative thus far.

I think a lot of the team did well though and i would be surprised if RS does not bring some of them back on-board.   I would assume Steve Messing and  Steve Burg would certainly be called back.

Hopefully others too

I think a lot depends really on what the script is about.

if its about..

Humans....

Androids...

Ships...

Xenomorph Face Huggers

Then maybe there is not much need, if we are going to end up with the same Xenomorphs that was in AC and eventually explore a upgrade that gains a more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic

I guess it depends if Origae-6 will play heavy in the movie and what kinds of Life it already has, and what Horrors David can create from them.

If all we are going to see Organic Wise is, Humans, Engineers, Eggs, Face Huggers and Xenomorphs... then maybe there is less of a need?

Totally Agree 100%

Ha Ha ;)

Love it

So we have gone down the Rabbit Hole of the Engineers... this may displease some...

But behind all that Ancient Gods etc, was some very interesting fundamental philosophy, Prometheus did take us down the Ancient Astronaut route, but behind all this was a very IMPORTANT THEME

Creation, and more so Intelligent Creation, so Intelligent and given Free-will or gain Free-will that they start to see themselves as being more than they was intended.  Its a tale of Creator/Creation, Father and Son, a King and his Reign.

Its a tale about a Creation/Son/Prince becoming Sentient, and seeing that their Creator/Father/King has no greater reason to be different or seen as superior to them...  Questions about what makes them less superior or less worthy than their Creator/Father etc

A Tale of Rebellion.....  This Tale is told in the Bible, more so in Paradise Lost, God Creates his Angels and he creates one so Perfect, and grants this one more Free-will as GODs Favored Creation that his Creation.. Lucifer begins to notice how Perfect he is, and comes to conclude what makes his Creator so Special above him and the other angels, that he starts to see himself as being Free, and not needing to Serve his Creator, as a Slave but to become his own King.

This Tale is told over and over in the Greek Mythos with the constant theme of Creator/Father  fearing the Rebellion of his Children, and then being over thrown by his Creation/Child and the Succeeding Creation and Child then also having the same Fear that the same would happen to them.

A Tale of Power, of being in control and a tale of being against being a Servant, well being at under the Rule of their Creator/Father.

Weyland we can see his Quest, and so David would have seen his Agenda which the Prologue touches upon....  David is created by Peter Weyland, to serve Peter Weyland and future Androids like David are to serve Mankind.... yet David is superior in every way..

This Theme goes further up with even the Engineers and what may be revealed about them and what Hierarchy they follow, as it was going to show us the Engineers are not GODs, they too are part of a Hierarchy of Creation... and indeed its likely they Rebelled against their Creators too.

At the Center of all this we have the Sacrificial Goo, a Tool for Creation, but also Destruction, maybe a Forbidden Fruit/Fire only intended to be used by certain beings or under the order of certain beings, but a TOOL that has been Stolen and Manipulated over and over.

The Sacrificial Goo was a KEY to Creation, it is linked too with the Black Goo, these Engineers had been playing with the Sacrificial Goo to their own Agenda,  the results of this are connected to the Black Goo, the Mural and what ever was being done on LV-223

So the WHOLE IRONY is that these Would be Creators of Mankind, had Stolen/Misused a Ancient Powerful TOOL, they was involved in some kind of as yet unknown Agenda..  The Engineers Created or played a Role in Mankind, and the Engineers Creation Rebelled, that required the Engineers to dabble in the Creation of a Horrific Bio-Weapon... maybe they Re-weaponized some Weapon/Punishment that was intended for them by their Creators?

And so we came to Mankind, who created Androids like David, and we see David shows signs of Rebellion and discontent for his Creators too.

and it is a iconic Twist of Fate.... that the  Engineers who created Mankind, see their Creations Create David, who in-turn is able to Use the Bio-Weapon/Tool to greater effect than his own Creators Creator.

The notion that David sees Mankind as in-superior, he sees the Engineers as nothing Special apart from their Technology and the Evil Bio-Weapon they was intending to create/perfect.   The Irony that David is able to succeed where the Engineers Failed, and utilize and Perfect from the Black Goo a Perfect Bio-Weapon.

I think this is the Thing that Ridley Scott is most interested about.. and i have a sneaking feeling we shall meet those who created the Engineers, those who set out to Punish the Engineers with something Horrific for their miss-use of the Creation Tool, but the Engineers using the Creation Tool attempted to Re-Engineer this Punishment that results in the Black Goo.

I think the Engineers Hierarchy will discover that their Creations, Creations Creation (David) has mastered the Creation Tool and Perfected the Bio-Weapon that the Engineers Creators had sent down to destroy the Engineers....

I feel this is where we are going.. its the route i would go.. and i have a feeling that the Hierarchy of beings above the Engineers will overcome David, and then See the PERFECTION he has created and then these beings attempt to Collect Davids Perfection for their own Needs..

But this Proved Costly and leads to our 15ft Space Jockey.

@Capt Torgo

Thanks and you raise some good points

@Lawrence of Arabia

some very very good comments could not agree more

@Michelle

which Script is that one? "You only have to read the script that is the foundation of Covenant"

==============================

" A colonial marines vs aliens is what not only the hard core fans want, but the newcomers to the franchise as well"


I think this is where the Problem lies, and a Error in the Alien: Prefix as the Fanboys are going to expect a ALIEN movie with a Prefix in the title ans so if the next movie has a ALIEN Prefix then i think it would surely have to cover the Xenomorph.

The Franchise Fanbase is very split...

ALIEN was a classic, a Space Horror which had a Big Mystery regarding the Eggs on the Derelict/Xenomorph Origin as well as the Space Jockey Race.   Aliens gave us a Popcorn Action movie that followed on from Alien that started to split some fans as some felt it was too Action and Degraded the Alien from the 1979 Movie.

Alien 3 went back to the Horror Routes with a more larger Platform for the Alien to kill off more people, and this movie had then set up THE END of Ripley and the ALIEN which in effect kind of killed off the Franchise, not literally but just from a story point it proved to be the Sacrificial End for Ripley, to prevent the Company from ever getting its hands on the Xenomorph.

Years passed by.... before FOX felt it was time to Resurrect the Franchise and the only way they could think of would be to cast Miss Weaver again (after she asked to be killed off in Alien 3) So they had to think of a way to bring Ripley back... and then the Xenomorph and so the whole Clone Ripley DNA (Flawed) route was taken...  A Plot that due to being set way in the future, seemed to show that the Queen inside Ripley in Alien 3 was the only Remnants of the Xenomorph the Company could explore.

AR did not do too well, it was a flawed movie, that tried to bring back a more Action Movie Vibe..

AT THIS POINT.....

No body had ever Answered the Xenomorph Origins, and who the Space Jockey was and what he was doing with that Cargo.....

In Hindsight maybe it should have remained a Mystery, or maybe they should have tackled some more Alien Origin...

Instead when working with Jon Spaights they had fleshed out a whole Curve-ball Story about the Space Jockey being a Ancient Humanoid Race who are called the Engineers who were the ancient beings who visted Mankind throughout Ancient History they played a role in our Creation and Evolution and are what the Many Stories, Mythos and  Religions about GODs on Earth had originated from.

The Xenomorph just being something they had experimented with and to be used as a Bio-Weapon to Kill Mankind because we had become a Rebellious Threat and a Disappointment to the Engineers.

so they opened up a Whole New Universe with the Engineers, where the Xenomorph was merely just a Weapon/Experiment.. and so FOX felt there was more to the Engineers than just the Xenomorph and liked the whole Ancient Astronaut Story Arc.

We have seen the Xeno over and over, and it was cooked after the AVP Movies, but the Back Ground Curve-ball regarding the Engineer Race was deemed something Never done... something Fresh.

And so the Xeno was toned down and Philosophical and Creation themes where concentrated on that gave us Prometheus.

Sadly while this opened up a New Story for some Fans to be interested in, for a lot of Alien Fans it was a disappointment...

So they Cracked in and Toned this all down, and gave into to Alien Fans by giving us Aliens in AC, they attempted to please every kind of Fanbase here... but ultimately displeased most instead.

Now they have ran with the Curve-ball that David the Robot created the Xenomorph, i cant see them dropping this now, not if RS had anything to say about it.

Its a interesting Curve-ball, but again i think the David = Xeno Creator and Space Jockey = Giant Humanoids are things that i feel half the fan base are not interested in.

My next post i will answer why its interesting...

I think RS will be backed up, it could appear that FOX may now give RS free reign to Tell the kind of Story he wants to do, but the problem is the U-Turn to have David Create the Xenomorph could be a touchy subject.

Alien Covenant seemed to be a brushing of the Engineers and Dr Shaw under the Carpet and only following up on some of the Themes of Creator and Creation but more to do with Davids Creation and Impact his Creator and Mankind has had upon David and at a Psychological Level and Philosophical Level due to Dr Shaws Ambition for finding our Makers.

while trying to give us more Action than Prometheus and bring back the Xenomorph...

But alas AC did not fair to well, and i am sure FOX have to start to ask Questions... did they need to Drop David and bring in Xenomorphs more?  Did they need to bring back Engineers for the Prometheus Fans? Do they concentrate on this being Davids Story.

It appears RS is a Fan of the David Agenda and Tale, and the Curve-ball that was thrown.

I think if RS is allowed more freedom this time and the Next Movie fails to Deliver, then i do think for any future Movies Ridley Scotts Reign will be at a END.

So fingers crossed for Ridley Scott

"The truth is the non-living which needs to be separated from life. Perhaps the xenomorph race is the key to this mystery. The mystery is the state of extracting non-life from life without betraying the meaning of life. Movement would separate non-life, but movement is meant to be life, therefore betrayal."

Maybe the effects of my Meds still, but that just Blew my Brain Cells ;)

I think the Question is interesting and it would be nice to explore what Prometheus set out... which is if we look at the TWO most Common Creation Theories.

1) GOD, yep there is a omnipresent (Panentheism) magical somewhat being  (Monotheism) or in multiple GOD's (Polytheism) but with some Hierarchy.  In either case its about GOD/GODS of Divine Power Created Mankind and all Creation.

2) Big Bang and Evolution in that there was a Chaotic Event in the very distant past, that from this Massive Event leads to rise to all the Building Blocks to Form Stars, and Planets and the Building Blocks for which Life-Forms could evolve from.

What Prometheus was trying to show is that option 1 is not by Magical Omnipresent GOD, or Gods, but by a Advanced Ancient Race who have a Hierarchy within themselves.   Ridley Scott was going to explore further that the Engineers in Prometheus are not GODs, they answer to and are a creation by some other kind of Hierarchy.

Ridley Scott then even hinted that the Big Bang Event, may indeed not be purely Coincidence or a Accident.

So he was going to be touching upon some Big Things  for which Prometheus was the Small Beginnings.

As we are now, i am not sure if these will be explored in great detail or if any, i think RS is concentrating more on the Continuous Creation Quest, and Tale of Creator Creates, and then the Creation Rebels against Creator.

And so yes a Theme already explored with Terminator Franchise, the I-Robot movie and Matrix Franchise, as well as others which includes to a degree Blade Runner.

BigDave - My pleasure, thx! :)

Lawrence of Arabia

I have just jumped to a surprising conclusion: Elizabeth was planted by the original facehugger made by the Engineers, so it is very probable that the Derelict eggs are original Engineer eggs. :)

I've made a new post about it.

My seat looks different ;)

I can see the point though, yes it does look like a Engineer ship but more so some Japanese Toilet Seat where surely the Central Pilot Room is a Douche Thingy ;)

Thanks for the Share...

Some very interesting and nice pieces here ATI ;)

Hi, BigDave! :D Happy you like the post.

Its simply a case of changing things as they go along... so we shall have to wait and see what happens between NOW and ALIEN.. however it is looking like David will arrive at Origae-6 which means he will arrive at this world about 10 years prior to the Events of ALIEN and so if those Eggs are Davids Creations, then they have to end up on a Engineer Ship on on LV-426 which we can safely assume is quite some distance from Origae-6 and all this will have to happen within a 10 year timeline.

Sadly it appears they make it up as they go along and dont consider what groundwork was laid before them in previous movies, and any given LORE or Comments and Interviews made on any subject connected to Alien and also this includes Viral/Marketing information that was meant to play as a History/Back Ground.

Nope Nothing is Safe from them simply changing things as they go along...

Initially indeed the object was to show case the Space Jockey as a Ancient Event, and Alien Engineers tried to Shoe-horn it in.. but with FLAWS. Prometheus just gave us vague clues, but we could see there was a connection between Xenomorph and the Experiments that had been conducted on LV-223 and the Outbreak and Space Jockey was likely a connected event.

Ridley Scott even confirmed it...  Here is the Final Answer for the Space Jockey prior to Work on the Prometheus Sequels.

*The Space Jockey was a Engineer, well a brother to the Engineers

*The Derelict was a brother to the Juggernaught and Technologically they are a few hundred years apart.

*The Derelict was carrying a Bio-Weapon Cargo

*The Derelict left for a undisclosed location but it did not get FAR.

*Something in the Cargo Hold Evolved and it got to the Pilot.

*Knowing that the Pilot was infected the Space Jockey set down a course to a near by Barron Moon to Quarantine the Cargo.

*The Derelict did not Crash, it was intended to Land where it was found.

*The Space Jockey was Chest Busted during the Final Stages of landing.

*The event had occurred within a Few Hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak that killed off nearly all those Engineers 2000 years ago.

So in a Nut Shell, the Derelict had THREE Outcomes....

1) A Earlier Model Juggernaught had been transporting a Cargo that Evolved and infected the Pilot who then attempted to Quarantine the Cargo but Crash Landed on LV-426. Many years latter the Engineers recover something and begin Experiments on it on LV-223 the results of which are Stored in the Urns, until the LV-223 Outpost suffers a Outbreak some few Hundred years after the Derelict Crash Landed on LV-426

2) The Derelict was a different model that had loaded some Cargo from LV-223 a few hundred years after the Outbreak, but the Derelict did not get far before the Pilot was Infected and Crash Landed on LV-426

3) The Derelict was part of the Mission 2000 years ago before things went to POT, and the Pilot had attempted to go into Cryo-Sleep to escape the Outbreak.. He had awoken a few hundred years latter only to find that he was infected by something that Evolved in the Cargo Hold and so he then proceeded to continue his mission but he only got as far as LV-426 before he had to Quarantine his Cargo and Crash Land on LV-426

I would say all Clues point to OPTION 3 being the most likely

As far as Space Jockey Size... Indeed the Space Jockey would have been 13-15ft tall, and indeed the idea for the Prequels was that the Space Jockey Engineer Race would be 15ft Tall, this ended up being 12ft for Prometheus Drafts... but the Final Product we was to assume are 9-10ft tall..

Sadly the Illusion did not work and our Engineers only appeared to be 8ft Tall Maximum, similar Scale Problems also happened with AC, where the Engineers Ranged from 6-7.5ft tall.

Hey BigDave :) Glad to see you back man.

Thanks for the share..

i did come across some explanations on another site the other month but thanks for sharing them here.

It does open us up to exactly what David had been up to all this time, the site i first read translations offered some insight into Davids experiments on Engineer Infants too.

Ati

It reminds me of Kethol and how he insisted the spores were microscopic insects and it matches up. Really makes me wish they would come out with a book with all of David's drawings and his notes legible. His drawings/notes of the Facehugger, Chestburster, and the Alien head are very interesting and showcases his hard work in perfecting the Perfect Organism.

I just got hope i can get myself motivated to work on one, at the moment i appear to always be between a rock and a hard place..

Need get my Dr to give me uppers instead of downers lol

Lawrence of Arabia

I'm glad you say they are useful.

Yes, the insect-like motes have the same role as the facehuggers: they carry and deliver the eggs/the embryos - with one difference if I know correctly: a facehugger plants only one embryo while the motes have several eggs in their egg-sac as it can be seen in the images as well.

Thank you for this Ati :) Very informative, so that insect in the first couple pics was a mote!

Is this one of the guys from Aqua Teen Hunger Force?  The 2-bit guys?

And maybe a Big Bird?

We know that Ridley wants to join up the dots in some way to tie things into Alien. What we have seen in Prometheus and AC gives us some idea about the big guy in the chair and the possible nature of the cargo. We know that there was an event which resulted in the derelict coming to grief and sending out a warning beacon.

We know that the engineer outpost in Prometheus has been around for over 2000 years give or take. Could the derelict have come to grief during that time or was it an event that could have happened thousands of years earlier ?

If the Engineers have been travelling around the universe for eons, I think it would be safe to assume that there have been changes in their technology over that time. Although we know that the engineers we meet in Prometheus have human DNA characteristics, that does not automatically mean that the big guy in the chair does.

With AC, as much as it has been annoying that we do not really know what events happened to Shaw that resulted in her fate, there is a massive gap in the storyline that imo demands to be filled in. There is an entire history, mythology, and cultural gap surrounding the engineers. This gap has been deliberately omitted I feel so that it can be filled in with C2. I would like C2 to keep the derelict an ancient event, and hope that possibly, its fate was a warning from the past not to touch the cargo.

It could be that David is about to repeat past mistakes that the engineers are more than aware of, and will stop at nothing to obliterate David and his experiments.

I think the opportunity is there for Ridley to deliver something that rounds everything up within the context of David’s story, but to also maintain some of the mystery of the derelict.

Membrane

I am not sure how old you are but as its well known I am over 60 I was anxious not to stereotype everybody, possibly to anxious. However the notion that real enquiry and commitment is on the wain whereas simple easy answers is on the increase is I believe true. Peoples emotionally sensory perceptions and commitment to the moment is in my view being eroded by their pre occupation with reporting the moment rather than being in it which is counterintuitive and distracting. However many actors (at the RSC) choristers and musicians who require years of craft and dedication are still making the journey and giving delight its just the audiences I sit in are in the main 60 plus.

I think the "under performance" of BR 2049 is an extremely useful compass point to look at what the mass audience wants. Do trailers give away the plot because studios think it will not sell equally was the aesthetic reaction to Prometheus and the straight line into David to make the prequels less saleable no the answer is trailers give away the plot because audiences want it made easy and the narrative potential of Prometheus was eviscerated to make it easier on audiences.

You only have to read the script that is the foundation of Covenant to see how they wanted to take something enigmatic and make it routine though John Logan being a fan was able to make something of the Engineers ...which was left out. 

If David is pre eminent in the follow up with humans and creatures his slaves with W-Y and the Engineers turning up for a fight of sorts that sounds like a good routine movie. As T-D indicated we just need some heroic human mediation.

It maybe my age but I need a film where I care about the characters and they offer a coherent emotional journey. David proved with multiple unreliable reflections on Shaw his attempt to galvanise sexuality in Walter and his love of non consensual creationism he will do absolutely anything to manage his way through. That kind of nihilism has limited audience loyalty. With Ripley we wanted her to succeed but on many occasions did not know how she would react and when she calmed down in moments of quiet we got a flood of emotional information about her both in her relations with Dwight, Newt and Clemens (in the Assembly Cut).

If i watch another quiet moment with David I am simply going to be looking at whether the other element has worked out he is lying nothing he says or does can be trusted. They have used up so much to get him on the ship his narrative is going to be an exercise in irony.  

The Crossing and Advent were better than the entire whole of Covvy for my tastes. The content for a great next Alien film is there even if its mostly David or war of the worlds. I just have zero faith Ridley can direct a film the masses will enjoy. He'll get sidetracked with going in to many directions with too many writers packing too many ideas into a film he knows is 2 hours thus butchering the end product and choking the life of the character's dialogue by his all encompassing hard on for symbolism at all costs. But let him finish, its not my money Fox is throwing down the toilet. Despite the harshness, I wish him luck in making a 'successful' film like the beloved Prometheus! Big Dave I miss seeing your posts and hope you get feeling better!

Whatever it may be it's awesome 

The dune paintings by Giger are amazing I prefer the original :/

Lawrence of Arabia - True, that image is awesome. Glad you like it.

"The Big Guy in the Chair is definitely NOT an Engineer & is at least 15' tall."

I'm pretty sure Robert Wadlow was human, despite him being almost 9 feet tall, way taller than an average human.

That's just my opinion.

Brilliant!

We have a fair amount of forum topics that dive into the Space Jockey size difference. 

I like this direction, it's different and fresh. We've done the human side for 4 films (6 including AvP) and it's nice to explore other sides of the mythos and open new avenues. The AI has always had a part in the saga and I'm glad they're in the limelight while the humans are the subplot now. Doesn't necessarily mean we won't get any human elements but this is David's show. Fox trusts Ridley to break new ground and so do I.

Alien Covenant shows David putting evolution into reverse. He lets the Neomorph and xenomorph share the palace when humans are present, and celebrates the birth of the xenomorph. Alien Awakening therefore is post-this state. Post-equality, and equality was post-inequality

That female in the first pic is fire <3

Michelle J - "People have always been across the spectrum."

I respectfully disagree.  The type of media/entertainment/info/etc and the nonstop exposure to it is making a difference on people and the functioning of their brain and thought-processes.  I think people as a whole have gotten less intelligent and the evidence is everywhere.

The last picture is sort of reminiscent of the idea of a queen alien from Aliens, at least to me. I wonder if that is where he got the idea from?

we could have plenty of genuine spin off. easi;y Engineers, Aliens, the Engineer morph, life on planet 4 or another seeded world. the options both amazing and fresh. imagine tv series or standalones for these