New Replies (Page 593)
Who was the Jockey and how did his cargo come about.
First of all we have to restate the purpose of the Prequels, to answer the question who the Jockey was and what did his cargo represent.
Answer
Our creators the Engineers began sub creating (The Promethean element) and out of retribution and punishment emerged the Alien Pathogen which is essentially super charged over sexualised reproductive energy which is deeply unsympathetic to its target, reproduction without a moral conscious which turns on its creators.
In Prometheus it should have been laid out very clearly that the Jockey was just another pilot with just another form of a radicalised organic element which was intended not for earth but to return to Paradise and to corrupt the Lambs (the audience would know this through Charlie discovering the truth of the mural, which should act as a decisive pictogram which he (and we) would be able to read together with the evidence of the sacrificed Deacon in the headroom tomb, with a small amount of re organising that mural could instead of representing yet more confusion given a really clear answer which Charlie would half understand and we would completely understand ) but when Elizabeth leaves for Paradise she has no idea ratcheting up the tension between movies). Earth would receive the canister treatment whereas the Eggs were to be introduced into Engineer society as a corruption of their culture of sacrifice and introduce a gradual "upgrade" which ironically is suggested by that fabulous marketing mural which has turned out to be yet another false trail.
David (the android) and Elizabeth (the believer) set out and David is healed and should have landed to a Paradise Lost - where the "fall" reached Paradise. The audience knowing the Jockey failed in his mission to take Eggs to Paradise would expect Paradise to be Paradise but have a real shock when D & E arrive to devastation (clearly a Juggernaut with Canisters made it to the planet which can be discovered in the movie). This shock could have been very real given that if the Crossing had been included in the film we would have felt Elzabeth's excitement in the prologue David would learn nothing on his journey the emphasis instead on his perceived redemption (or not).
The critical tension of the story is all around David the mechanical construct who suffered slavery and apartheid and in his resurrection appears to have found grace but we are never quite certain.
Elizabeth and David discover the truth of Paradise launch the Engineers holograms and recognise the intellectual turmoil set out in John Logan's remarks and the truth of their demise.
Weyland Yutani the large corporate that symbolises the self serving, anonymous functionality of all corporates, arrive with their desire to acquire the Engineer technology connecting the main theme of the sequel sequence and of course both David and Elizabeth who have died by the time of Alien sacrifice themselves to cleanse the planet and stop W-Y.
The appearance of the teardrop ship is allegorical and simply wish fulfilment for Elizabeth it can be left as part of her dreams in death a little like Bowman in 2001. We can then be left to speculate as we do in 2001 on the notion of creation.
The first movie answers cargo/jockey and the second movie bursts out of the narrow horror and gore protocols and is allegorical, philosophical but full of invention through its examination of the Engineers and we find answers but are left with philosophical questions which is entirely right.
The audacity is in finding out the Engineers were responsible for mankind through a mechanical "gift" within the creation soup and our myths are half right they were lured by their hubris.
Two films for the elderly A L I E N audience and if someone wants to keep on making Xeno flicks ad infinitum then young directors and young audiences can restart with A5 and Ripley and Queens and smart ass marines.
I am an audience of one here the Xeno has no interest for me its a special effect which was brilliantly executed in 1978 and the only part about it I am interested in is who, why, what where.
So to answer your question first you have to remind yourself what the purpose of the prequels were check for answers and what we are receiving and then replace tired troped confused movies like A C and almost right but low exposition Prometheus with a ROBUST INTERESTING NARRATIVE which does not take years/decades to make its point.
That David and Elizabeth intrude on Paradise and discover a rich and creative past is like Bilbo's "Translations From the Elvish" written at Imladris and thats my other point Frodo and Bilbo mediated us into the vast mythology created by Mr Tolkien, David and Elizabeth could have done the same which links to my other point we have no mediation we can rely on indeed right now non at all except the unreliable narrator.
I have enjoyed this conversation and your thoughtful responses which without rancour or argument show the difference between two followers of these films but forgive me but my bank holiday resolution is to let this stuff go and wait for what we actually receive.
I will do some experiments with David as well, when i get my hands on him.
I wrote in another there here that planet 4 could be a recreation/sacral planet of that race with less surface structures/orbital structures.
They live there in harmony with the nature and the high tech reduced to a minimum.
You can even see they had some farms to grow crops/grain but no machines in near proximity. Probably done the work the old fashioned way mechanically.
If this would be the current homeworld of an ancient billion years old species David's Juggernaut would be pulverized millions of miles before entering that orbit.
The Engineers will be pissed when they find out their beautiful planet got destroyed. They probably originated from there but found another new (home)world in far reaches of our or another galaxy.
Yes! So agreed on all counts! ...David is very Hannibal-esque.
Much appreciated! I feel pretty strongly on this matter, lol.
(Also, I have to admit, I'm embarrassingly glad someone actually read it! I was afraid it was too much of a wall-of-text, so I thought my impassioned little Bishop eulogy had disappeared into obscurity, much like poor, unregarded Bishop himself. So THANK YOU!...for indulging my long-windedness.)
We certainly have a ways to go in evolution to get to the "Big Chap" in "Alien". The protoxeno is a great deal more animalistic than it is human. David's tampering/engineering will have to be readjusted en route to Origae 6 in order to get "there".
And, you're right, that CGI is worse than a high school graphic design class. I cannot believe Ridley let that go out into the world. It does look great INSIDE the ship, in the dark, when it can barely be seen, IMHO. That was the only time I felt true dread and where it came CLOSE to looking like "the" Alien we all know and love.
(Wren is now worried. With urgency in his steps to keep up with Perez quick pace, his voice naturally follows the same urgency.)
We don't perceive this as a problem.
I'd say Shaw.
And IRaptus, please, your mention of "that" thing makes me cry...but not because I mourned its death...quite the contrary.
@Vivisected well done on Bishop. I like it!
Shaw: I need to know why they created us and then wanted to kill us. I would like to express my idea according to this question. David knows humans according to his experience, so he feels his creation as a fierce and dominant race underestimating humans. He is the shepherd of his dogs, he dominates them, I do not think his death will come from this .
"Au Revoir Shoshanna"
the little chestburster in aliens. as soon as he was born he was wiped out of existance. he never got to feel the breeze on his (face?) never got the satisfaction of punching someones head in with his mouth. such an innosent creature killed long before his time. RIP
"Lol, ok red0guy@gmail.com , you're entitled to your opinion. Aliens 3 was shocking to me. Although, I really couldn't care less about Hicks, Newt or Ripley. They were not particularly sympathetic or compelling characters to me.
It's Bishop's gruesome demise that grips me.
I liked Shaw's death. Shaw was a complex and sympathetic character so I like that she was denied the answers she sought and that she was used as a tool to implement horrors she would never have condoned.
To me that's chilling and that's what I like to see in a horror movie."
I agree completely. I found Shaw's death far more horrifying than any Xeno could be. Xenos have the jump-shock factor, but it's over with pretty quickly. I find suspense and psychopathy far more jarring and a mind-f*ck. Why I love Hannibal so much! David reminds me of him...
The first few times I saw Covenant, seeing what David did to Shaw actually made me cry... It was horrifyingly sad.
but What is the creature?
I thought they were just unused scenes from covenant.
I belive that the last half with the action is from awakening but when she is asking muther about stuff and playing poker, it seems to lightharted considering david the phycopath is on the ship.
If somehow new synthetics like Walter know all the languages, he may speak with the engineers.
I also have the feeling that these are scenes from Awakening - 0:30
I also thought of a plot idea that has nothing to do with david. here it is.
it takes place sometime after alien 3. the last surviving engineers take a juggernaut ship to earth were they infect all of earths water sources with black goo. peoprle dont know what is happening but suddenly people are starting to mutate into the fifield xeno mutant things. I was also thinking that some animals would get infected and turn into some unique xenomorph strains. some peopel at the weyland yutani are trapped in a weyland military base ass the xenomorphs break in.
these all look great! the last one looks very close to being human.
in fact, no. I have never read that book. LOL
hahahaha! that's gold!
Passing by that scene in space would warrant a big What the actual f$%k?!
Perez- Oh boy am I thinking termination.
Barf The Mog lol. its a true story XD
Gedimen - You're not thinking termination?
It was used in the making of Covenant book.
Timmy - Have you read the book Everyone Poops?
@iRaptus, the dog/runner is probably the closest to the protomorph in looks and speed and agility, bar the bio-mech look that the dog runner has.
The Aliens will be the main character.
@hox
Maybe the Engineers version of the impregnated xeno doesn't have legs or maybe David removes the legs in the early stages of the Xeno's growth.
I always figured the Xeno slithered across the table like a snake. Or maybe it moves like a slug, but just 100000x faster? The Xeno does drool a lot, so maybe those drool glands start on its lower belly when it first bursts from the chest to allow it to move very easily across a surface, like a slug! Then, those glands go away. I'm sure we could figure out some realistic scientific answer to how the baby Xeno moves. At least I hope so!
Barf The Mog I totaly agree. I just thought that alien 3 was the most diverse because a main charector was ethnic.
forgot about the nurse though.
i saw it at BigW the other day, nahhh, i am up to date now iRaptus, so i won't buy it, there is really no need to.
I don't think they eat, so i don't think that they would poop. even if they did eat, they are supposed to be the perfect orginisim meaning that they would be 100% effecient using all of the food as energy.
@I Moon Girl, yeah I love the scene too. But the practical effect is just so poor when the chestburster is whisked across the table, I can hardly bring myself to watch that part of it. Where are its legs, for gawds sake.
Do they poop?
Covenant's CGI is awful.
Timmy - A poetic death, like Roy Batty, would be highly cliche and contrived, but then again so are all of Scott's films.
I think the CGI could've been better in A:C. I'm not against CGI, but it does need to be done correctly. I do like real costumes too. A balance of the two is probably the best route to go in present times. I think the CGI in Alien: Resurrection is just great! It's been awhile since I've watched the whole thing, but from my memory, it's awesome. I love the part where the Xeno's are swimming at the people. That part really scared me. I remember that part as being some really great CGI. The Alien franchise has had some great CGI, or maybe they were costumes or props, but I do think that A:C needed some help on the CGI parts. There were maybe around a handful of those parts needing help in A:C.
@hox
I love the original chestburster scene in Alien. Sometimes I get on the internet and just watch that clip. The best part is that the room is dead quite and then... the creature screeches and rushes across the table!!!! Fabulous!!!
"Even A L I E N would be cool...I'd redo Ash's head scene and Kane's undershirt where you can clearly see the mechanical contraption he is wearing...clean up that and some other bits."
I agree on that.
"First when they land on the planet, Aliens are jumping around like some crazy monkeys."
They even sound like monkeys too. Honestly, I loved the fact that those neomorphs acted so primitive and even sounded like monkeys. At first viewing, I didn't like it right away, but when I allow it to really soak in and try and think what these neomorphs are thinking, I think the solution we saw in A:C is a good one. It could've been different, but I think it wouldn't have been better or at least not by much. Now, when I watch the movie at that, I just soak it up and love it all. The reel of film from when Ledward is being carried by Karine until the survivors arrive to Davids "sanctuary" is just amazing. Of course after that, the fear changes and becomes more sneaky-like instead of just all in your face.
The blood slips are good. I mean they just encountered an alien for the first time in history that they know of. It's hard to pay attention when that alien is also trying to kill a fellow friend. If anything, Faris should've let Karine out... but I love for the sake of the movie that she didn't. It was so awesome seeing Karin's scared face in the window cursing at Faris, "FARIS, LET ME THE F^(# OUT!!!! FARIS!!!!!"
That whole scene from as soon as Karine is helping Ledward until the crew makes it safely to Davids "sanctuary" was just awesome and so epic. I've watched the movie 3 times so far and each time I just loved the epicness of that reel of film.
I'd be afraid some of those extra clips would make the film as a whole kind of choppy. If there were some filler footage, then it could work, but I don't think there is any that could. Maybe you could find some filler footage with flashbacks made from deleted scenes?
I thought the neomorphs jumping around were very effective. Vicious, fast and unpredictable. That's exactly the kind of behaviour you need from a top predator. The adult form looked convincing to me. If Alien-style motion detectors had been used in this prequel, many many people would have complained, and justly so.
MonsterZero thats a nice idea :)
perhaps he learns to control his lust and obsessions where he failed with Shaw, to eventually save Daniels?
I have Prometheus and Covenant on Blu-ray but not the original Anthology, so time for an update for me :)
We spoke about that shot a while back and I remembered how much you liked that Ati. That is the best capture I could get before the transition to the next frame...the topic would be lacking without it.
The Prometheus entering the valley is such a great scene.
I've always had a theory that it is a conspiracy involving/between Ripley's daughter, Weyland-Yutani and the Creators/Alien Queen Mother aka ULTRAMORPH. I've often questioned whether or not Newt even "existed", and was a hallucination of Ripley dealing with the loss of her daughter. Covenant would be treated more as an isolated incident, with a superior Xenomorph species being of direct lineage of the Creators of Humanity and the Engineers, but I digress. Essentially, the incidents in Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3 were part of a controlled experiment involving cooperation between W-Y and God-like extraterrestrials (Jockeys).
Cerulean Blue I would remove Aliens from the Alien franchise. I know this would infuriate a lot of people, but Aliens turned the xenomorph into a bug. Better no sequels than such lame one.
We're 18 years behind Alien. I wouldn't be surprised if Alien: Awakening took place right around 18 years of Alien: Covenant, less a year possibly. I hope Alien doesn't directly continue off of Alien: Awakening.
So, I think when we see Alien: Awakening, everybody will have been experimented on and dead. New characters will be introduced to make physical contact with David since David sent WY that transmission. The Covenant likely has a tracking system on it, so I don't think David would be hard to find. Plus, the Covenant looks like a ship that is meant to fly straight and not make hard adjustments. Basically, what I am saying is that it is an easily predicable ship.
The main character would be one of the people working for WY, besides David of course.
Still, there is no telling. I am just going by the fact that A:C took place 10 years of Prometheus, so I think Ridley is going that route again. We don't need to see the experimentations and David is smart enough not to loose a colonist, which would start "mutiny" on the ship. Plus, I don't think he is going to experiment with Xeno's on the ship since the acid could tear the ship a part. David will probably stop at a nearby planet to experiment on. He might go back to Planet 4 and get ready for the arriving WY people.
The next question is, will the Engineers return to Planet 4 after it has been wiped out. If they do, they sure are taking there time. Maybe David sends a transmission to them telling the Engineers what he has done and a few return with the knowledge of the risks they are taking on by landing on Planet 4.
So, if Ridley Scott plans Alien: Awakening like he did Alien: Covenant, then everybody will be dead and new characters will be introduced. There is the time in the franchise for Ridley to do something like that too. I hope he does. That way we get a completely fresh and new story just like we got with Alien: Covenant.
