Comments (Page 717)

I liked A:C more than Prometheus, but Aliens is far and away the better film for me. 

Lawrence of Arabia We all like what we like or hate what we hate. If we all agreed about everything this forum would be pointless and boring. 

Yeah, you're not gonna find anyone who likes the prequels here. Ironic considering it's the forum for the film. Best to look elsewhere. 

I don't feel the problem is the fan-base, it is FOX's constant meddling, second-guessing, misinterpreting/over-analysing their own product.

This has led to a frustratingly inconsistent and uncoherent direction for the franchise. The fans would accept (maybe not like) the direction if they just backed their Director/Writer vision. The constant back-flipping and re-writing is what is leading to divided nature of the fans

Lawrence of Arabia I appreciated what they tried to do with the Newborn, agreed there are some pretty fearsome scenes with it. I like how much of an abomination it is, it is offensive to look at - I say that in a good way.

But its crotch-thrusting body does freaks me out lol.

I'll leave you guys to your fan fics then.

I like the Quadrilogy but the prequels not as much. 1 and 2 are outstanding. 3 was a grower for for me and AR is a good film as well. There are quite a few members who like A3 and I have noticed over the year members giving props to AR. 

I agree about the NB. I also think its death was among the most disturbing in the entire series- Sort of reminded me of an abortion in a way. The NB was scared, in pain and didn't understand what was happening while watching its mother stare it down as it slowly got sucked into the abyss.

I agree Kethol but.....it might have been more difficult and the beginning of the film would have to be cut way down. Heck, we hardly got to see the sets of the dead engineers. I had hoped for a slow walk through the bodies with dialogue debating what happened to them. How are the corpses not rotten if it rains all the time there. Cool video but disturbing. Maybe we'll get a comic or book to give us these answers. After seeing that xenomorph attack David's face on that screen I have high hopes one of his experiments will kill him as soon as it grows to full size.

Lawrence of Arabia Yep. AC will require re watches though. The David/Walter angle is very interesting to me.

There are a few recent threads on how to connect to Alien from members that are interesting to me and very different from what RS seems to be doing. We shall see.

You are correct that the franchise has always been polarizing except I didn't notice that until Alien 3. To me, it means the fan base is passionate.

As for getting Awakening or nothing at all, I would be fine with nothing at all at this time. I really don't think Alien needed a prequel or was meant to have one when it was made.

Per the OP, I stand behind what is stated regarding better ideas from forum members.

I hate this fanbase. Nitpicky as all hell and misinterprets everything. I either hope we get Awakening or nothing at all cause this fanbase doesn't deserve it. 

I'll take campy AVP or Resurrection any time DK! I think it's the wrong cook in the kitchen but that's just my vibe. Who knows what happens to our beloved X. Maybe the Android Show spin-off is cooked? Not sure what Fassbinder would want for a sequel but if the budget is drastically cut he may just have his likeness used as a corpse. Undoubtedly Ridley had plans for Walter or he would not have spent all that time and money shooting promos for "we are BladeRunner". It was all there to make AC decent for myself but how nobody saw those tropes and terrible dialogue is just beyond me. My heart can't take another Oram, poor Crudup but I dont blame him for taking the job. There are so many hungry and talented directors out there, give them and us a chance. Xeno is un-cookable and anything else that follows should honor Giger and O'Bannon and our intelligence.

Sherris I agree completely with you and others. Laurence Arabia= I get where you appreciate the long game and "smart talk" of great poets and androids debating it's creators but......you simply can not make a rational argument for how stupid these characters are: Oram is so stupid he would never be picked as an astronaut! No astronauts are going to be saying "sugardick" and "sweet tits" even if they are couples. More than half the film is a rehash anyways. Sure it looks and sounds great but you can't piss off the general public with these terrible characters. At least I got Prometheus before he drove his bus into the ditch. Glad you liked it but the box office results are disastrous.

232 -43 from China at 25% take home =191- half =95million plus roughly 12 million from China after their 75%cut= 107 million studio take in so far. If it needs $150 with marketing then it's $43 million short of break even. This is just my guess at the studio getting half the box office except China where it only gets 25%. Covvy has fallen super short of Prometheus for many reasons. I just hope they pull the blank check and keys to the franchise from Ridley and force him to settle on a great bankable script and not deviate from it. There is money out there in this franchise but with these terrible box office numbers they have to wrap this up in one film. Give it a breather is my take, let some new talent give it a go. 

wow these are amazing Ati. The franchise could definitely do with an artistic shake-up and revitalization. Big in scope, classical sci-fi in design.  

As much as it pains me but Neill Blomkamp films have a very gritty, industrious (trucker in space) feel to them. Pair him with a good writer and producer and a film with a big large scope and I think he could do the job.

This image that you shared I feel sums up what a Blomkamp style Alien art style would look like

Kethol a Couple of things:Wow! Metachaos  is bizarrely beautiful! I see what you mean. Thanks for sharing that! I can also see shades of Jacob's Ladder, Silent Hill and Eraserhead in there too.

You made me think of another idea and that is- what if David and Shaw's journey was its own movie? It would be on that ship with two main actors and flashbacks to flesh it out. The concept worked pretty well with the movie from 2002- Phone Booth.

I've often thought the Alienverse could make a great miniseries if done well. That way things could get fleshed out and we wouldn't have to wait five years to see what happens next.

Interesting photos. I think Neil Blevins' pictures would fit best with this series.

I feel like the only one who loves the Newborn XD He was cute and terrifying at the same time. I wish they kept his genitalia lol

I wish the images never ended...

The alien is too beautiful, too rich of a creation to leave gathering dust on the shelf. Prometheus was a new direction but it was always intended to be an Alien prequel. I think that's where people are misinterpreting Covenant, as they see that the Xenomorph was just "shoe-horned" in. I do agree that Scott originally thought to bring the Xenos in later but brought them in Covenant because of the outcry during Prometheus. I get the frustration at the lack of Engineers or their background but it was intended for Awakening. I don't see how a "true" Prometheus sequel would work exactly. Would Shaw be kicking Engineer ass with her sidekick David or breaking bread with them? Covenant was still philosophical, it was about creation and destruction and the implications of such grandiose themes. I feel like Awakening will right the ship some feel have gone off kilter.

Alien 3 is my favourite of the Alien films. I like them all, even Resurrection (though I usually skip the Newborn confrontation scene on the Betty lol)

I Moon Girl and BlackGooDrinker. I couldnt agree with you more. Prometheus kicked ass, it was philosophical where few movies go into. Covenant was terrible.

Prometheus should have been a new direction and perhaps a franchise of its own. The Engineers and the creation of mankind. No aliens needed. 

No, I love them as well and yeah I think Aliens is a bit overrated. Don't get me wrong, I love Aliens, but fans expect every new film to be exactly like it and if it's not it's crap. I love the prequels and Alien 3 for the nihilism and religious tones. It's an interesting mix for sci-fi/horror. Alien 1 was a bit nihilistic as well. Plus, they are far more compelling stories compared to Aliens (which I think is a great film).

I'd like them to keep the Engineers mysterious, nameless.....

If you give them a name('Toryth? Eldijnoeut?, Muid 8 yut 6, ect...)We start down the fantasy path and it opens a massive world building exercise and everyone starts asking all the hard questions.

Better to keep it simple: Humans getting devoured by space monsters.

The real question is: Why are the Engineers fossilized in A:C?!? I know it looks cool...But is there another logical reason?

Edit:

Was it written originally that: Shaw/David arrived to find a long dead city? ? makes sense to me. Avoid a lot of world building backstory stuff.

Later script's they added/changed David killing them? 

Thanks dk !

I'd also like to see a 'Tales from the Nostromo' series. Odd ball crews and the horrors they encounter in deep space. (Not just space monsters...the human kind too!) 

 Haunted vessel stuff.

Maybe a thousand year history of the Nostromo, Nostromo II and iii, iv....and all who sailed her.

That is a pretty cool reference :0 Even better that Ridley brought him on board as a consultant. 

I do agree that Shaw and David's journey should have been expanded on but the chapter we got was more about re-introducing the Xenomorphs and how those ten years affected David. I hope we get a flashback sequence like in Covenant between Weyland and David but with David and Shaw to elaborate more on that relationship because it was just alluded in this chapter. I quite liked the mystery of it though, the entire time watching I was wanting to know more and what happened and the reveal was delightfully dark.

If the sequel would have explored Shaw and David's journey, it would have to be some great writing.  I liked the way it turned out though.  After watching Covenant, I am glad that Ridley went that way.  It wasn't scary enough though.  I am especially critical of this because the Xeno is in there, so it should have scared the $h!t out of me like Ridley said it would.  The big thing with the A:C is we see it from a colonization mission's point of view.  This gives us from fresh eyes and does some major character development for the sequel to Alien: Covenant.  This was played very smart by the writers.  The movie that takes place after Covenant should be full throttle.

I can't say if Scott should be removed from the franchise until AFTER Alien: Awakening.  The movie was in the process of being written as Alien: Covenant was being finished up!  I see A:C and A:A are going to be a massive story spanning over 4 hours to bring us something that ties back to Prometheus and pulls us forward, and possibly into, Alien.  We cannot judge A:C completely until AFTER we see A:C.

Prometheus had an ending which led us to expect an obvious sequel where Shaw and David meet the Engineers in some way.  It was a solid ending.  A:C leaves us hanging and waiting for the next story.  I think A:C is the first Alien movie where we are left hanging.  That's something to be remembered when judging it.

Another thing on Prometheus...  When I saw that ending, I thought if the sequel would be written correctly, it could be a good movie where Shaw meets those Engineers and maybe talks to them through David, but that IS NOT what we got.  I am so glad it's more complicated then that!  Prometheus was a 9 outta 10 at best only because something scenes in there could have been done slightly differently.  I don't care what anybody says!!!  Prometheus was awesome!  If they don't see that, then they aren't watching the movie with fresh eyes.  I admit, it IS NOT perfect, like Alien was.  A problem with Prometheus is people are watching as a movie which relates to the Alien franchise, which could be why people have mixed opinions about it.

Alien: Covenant was worse than Prometheus in my opinion.  I guess an 8 outta 10 at best.  The problem was that is WAS NOT SCARY.  It maintained a level of fear in me throughout the movie, but there were no scenes where I $H!t my paints.  I did in Alien, Aliens, some in Alien3 (it's been awhile since I watched it though), and more than some in Alien: Resurrection.  I also did in Prometheus, but Prometheus was also a sophisticated and intellectual movie, so it doesn't have to scare as much.  Alien: Covenant had NO SCENES according to me even though it should have had at least one, especially with the Xeno being back in the franchise.

This makes me feel better! :)

Covenant is an unorthodox sequel but to say it had nothing to do with Prometheus is wrong. David's character development started in Prometheus. What he found, his logic, it all started there. We will get our answers and we would have sooner but Scott felt he should bring the Xenos in a lot sooner and that is what Covenant's about, re-introducing the space menace.

dk

I'm disappointed in you man. Have you seen Covenant yet? Every fanbase is split and always bickering and I've been to many forums. Anime, comics, games, sports, their is always bickering about why x decision was bad or good. Rebooting or retconing Scott's films at this point is unwise and rude, the man created this franchise. Yes, Dan O' Bannon and Ron Shussett wrote the original screenplay but if they did things their way we would have a B-Movie by the name of StarBeast with a totally different monster. Scott got Fox to raise the budget, he got Giger on board, he dealt with the companies hounding, built the sets, and still pulled off a classic. Scott is playing the long game and we need to be patient and appreciate what we are getting. To take it from him now is just not right. Every Alien film since the original has polarized fans.

I really hope THR is pulling shit out their ass. Fox hasn't made an official statement and Covenant did relatively well all things considered. I want to see Awakening and whatever Ridley has planned. David is a fantastic antagonist and I'm not getting the hate for this film. Every film thus far has had fallible characters make unlucky decisions, that's just humanity and part of what makes the film great. If the humans were smart they wouldn't be killed by Xenos. The Xenomorphs prey on our weaknesses and it's cool to watch them tear people to shreds. I digress, Rebooting or retconing Scott's films at this point is unwise and rude, the man created this franchise. Yes, Dan O' Bannon and Ron Shussett wrote the original screenplay but if they did things their way we would have a B-Movie by the name of StarBeast with a totally different monster. Scott got Fox to raise the budget, he got Giger on board, he dealt with the companies hounding, built the sets, and still pulled off a classic. Some are right, Alien isn't Blade Runner but to say the AIs don't play in integral role in the franchise is wrong. Scotts just looking for something fresh for the franchise and the route he's chosen is an interesting one. Most I know are disappointed with the lack of answers or Engineers from Prometheus which Scott said will play a vital role in the next film. Let's wait and see and enjoy the ride. 

Thank you, you are a god send. People are just spinning this rumor out of control and to their notions because some are upset with what Ridley's doing. I really hope Fox is behind Ridley 100%.

There is nothing in it at all.

Even if FOX WERE reassessing surely that is what you would do before going forward with anything ? I would expect FOX to reassess everything after its release.

So even if it was said (which it was NOT) then they would probably only be going through the steps as they would after any release.

The amount of data available these days, reassessing a situation is just normal good business. It does not mean it is due to negative feelings/data around it. 

That is my take on it

MonsterZero That Ash idea sounds pretty great.

Ingeniero - Thank you!

'I love the painting from the seventies by Peter Andrew Jones too. It reminds me of the classic Lost in Space episodes.'

I love that painting! I would be happy to see the same in an Alien movie, traditional robots made by the Engineers' creators would be a good idea in my opinion.

And yeah, 'disappointed', in Ingeniero style... :D

Prometheus 

Hierarchy 

Teardrop ship, the Gods take Engineers and enhance them to catalyse planets, we do not see the Gods -mystery. 

Paradise is the Gift of the Gods to the species from which the acolytes are taken Woton, Valhalla and the Einherjar. They rebel against sacrifice and begin their own sub creation away from Paradise on LV223. They visited mankind and returned with specimens to LV 223 and out of this created the Deacon who they sacrificed to create the new catalytic strain. The misuse of the Catalyser lead to retribution, it was booby trapped, and the deadly Alien Pathogen was created which wiped them out. This amounted to a theft Promethean like and they suffered endless repetitious punishment both on LV 223 and Paradise until they became extinct.

Stored in the holographic libraries are the final moments of LV 223 which see two sets of pilots fully suited and protected (so they think) leave one for earth the other for Paradise. Their cargos are the final evolution of the mutagen the Alien Life Cycle created in secret by an inner circle of Engineers. Behind the mural is a room which only the camera sees and there is a raised Dias with an Ovemorph on it. 

One juggernaut is overcome and sets down on LV426 and the warning signal is discovered centuries later by Peter Weyland who withholds this knowledge and which only David is aware of.

One juggernaut arrives at Paradise and leads to its devastation and this is immortalised in the mural which is used for Covenants promotion.  

This is the back story which will emerge over the two films the Jockey can be assumed and explained in tie in material.

Sir Peter wakes David and after years of planning the Prometheus mission sets off. The crew chosen are bought mercenaries and the science officer the naive and damaged Elizabeth Shaw is cover for Sir Peters real intent. 

The Prometheus lands discovers its truth that mankind has been brought before to help with the LV223 experiments and the invitation was a trap to future space faring generations, one of the crew is lost in a hidden oubliette leaving the audience wondering what has happened through out. The visit to the temple is longer and happens just once and they find evidence of mankind being experimented on the exposition is much stronger.  

As planned Sir Peter is woken when David discovers a live Engineer and David, fully aware of what will happen leads him down to his death. Janek, who was in on Sir Peter, has a furious exchange with Elizabeth, who after the death of Charlie and caesarian survival knows the truth of the place and now the mission, pursues the party intending to stop the waking of the Engineer. Janek is contrite and realises he is working for a madman they agree to do anything they can together to stop the "shit" leaving LV 223. This exchange between Elizabeth and Janek gives both of them real dramatic power and in their different ways shows the audience the sham nature of the mission and who was in on it. Janek is more the avuncular leader than the stiff Vickers and that makes him that much trickier and more interesting for the audience.  

On the way to the Orrery a creature emerges and there is an appalling fire fight with flame throwers we only see the hints of the creature but it could be a Xenomorph and having seen an Egg in the room behind the mural the audience can make their own deductions, and the creature is is blown to peices. Sir Peter and David survive and so does Shaw, arriving afterwards.

The waking of the Engineer is much fuller as are the holo scenes and when Elizabeth arrives she confronts the Engineer who picks her up and hurls her away and then dislodges Davids head and Weyland dies.

The outcome of the film is the same and we finally see very clearly a xeno related creature from the mural born at the end. There is no Vickers in the movie (Janek is more complex and is in on Weyland and undergoes a change which makes his heroism at the end more powerful) Fifield and Milburn do not exist and outside of Sir Peter, David Janek the two co pilots everyone else is an extra with the exception of the female doctor who sedates Shaw and looks after a better conditioned Weyland. The audience are in on the sham nature of the mission from the moment that Charlie is incinerated by Janek. this puts the odds heavily against Elizabeth and makes her survival even more of a heroic arc.

Pandemonium

Act 1 David and Elizabeth form their co dependent relationship. The crossing is extended and a relief period after the appalling events they have been through. There is a real chance to invest in the combination of the barren woman and the robot. She goes into Cryo for five years. David lands the Juggernaut to scenes of devastation. The final moment of the first act is David looking around at the devastation.

Act 2 They fire up the Engineers holographic libraries and discover the back story what they were trying to achieve and why it went wrong and they are never, and neither are the audience clear, on whether there is any kind of survivor Engineer or Morph. This act is riven with tension and creative input about the Engineers. They discover the huge mural of the Xenomorph and the Engineers. The surprise at the end of the act is the arrival of a Weyland Yutani Scout ship with marines onboard. The newly merged organisation (5 years prior D & S have been away 8 years) has picked up Shaw's signal and followed them knowing there is the potential for acquisition of Engineer technology. The synthetic on board is corporate and called Edward. 

David and Edward exchange and David discovers the nefarious nature of the mission and warns Elizabeth. 

Elizabeth discovers the solution is to find the original untainted catalyser the source of the Engineers power and ingest it and set of a recreation spark putting matters right. 

There are some powerful adversarial scenes between Elizabeth and the head of the marines and the hammerpede scene could be included to echo the lifecycle without taking the story any further.

David and Shaw after several days decide to act.

David holds off the marines in a firefight allowing Elizabeth to escape. He however is overcome and disconnected. The final scene for him is Edward transmitting David's knowledge which includes the details of LV 426 and the Beacon to muther.

Elizabeth high above the city re enacts the opening Prometheus scene which has a devastating effect on a mature environment. All non botanical life is destroyed in what amounts to a biblical like reverse plague. The final scene is the appearance of the Teardrop ship which triggers a re terraforming of the planet over the end credits bringing the story full circle.     

The Jockey is explained.

The origin of the XXX121 is LV 223 and the Engineers and is placed in the context of Paradise Lost. 

The intel on LV 426 is returned to Weyland Yutani. 

The appearance of the marines and their overt aggression adds a distinct and different flavour to the now very developed co dependent relationship of Elizabeth and David, almost a riff on Ripley and Hicks. 

We see two very contrasting worlds like the actual films but get far more of the mythos in our hands. The appearance of the creature in film 1 gives consistency and by using it sparingly it does not suffer being cooked. The hammerpede transferred to Pandemonium can remind everyone of the stakes of the marines carrying off Engineer technology. It would work well if one of the marines was a smart arse who the audience do not take to almost wanting the audience to see the mutagen survive. 

By ending the first film with the Deacon we have had our chest bust and connection with the mural. The sacrificial cup appears on the alter confirming the sacrifice of the deacon to create the new catalyser.   

One could go on and I have probably forgotten something for logic. 

Nah. ALL the fan bases in any movie/book/entertainment series are split...tons of infighting.They can't agree on anything. 

Sports the same way.

Always waiting for that next great athlete/director to propel their team/franchise. 

The thing i struggle with is the fact that even after the u turns and indecisiveness that brought us A:C - It still could have been saved to some degree with just some small dialogue to explain some of the questions posed in Prometheus.

Then we would of got A:C which is a decent enough action flick which happens to be set in a franchise i love. 

AND some answers from Prometheus. Just something while the crew and David were in The City. All these expensive and beautiful sets are meaningless when the characters dont acknowledge them and tie them into the film.

Now this would be a far from great situation but it would of turned the 3/5 reviews to maybe 4/5 and the whole outlook for the future would of been okay. We would accept it because we are fans of it. For better or worse. Fox never knew what to do with it and have made some appalling exec decisions. 

We dont expect classic after classic. Just a continuation of the story you began telling us. Dont tell us it is something that it is not.

By that i mean as a follow up to Prometheus A:C is terrible.

However, as a standalone throw away action flick it is decent enough.

The majority of negative reviews point to the fact that as a sequel it revealed nothing and had hardy anything to do with Prometheus.

I admire your effort it was a very detailed piece ;)

Some really interesting points which perhaps would spark more interaction if delivered 2 points per thread. I read most of what you wrote, havent quite finished.

So...

The different Engineers being 4 Different races. So Sacrificial, Engineers 223, The Elders and the Planet 4 beings.

I  have 2 theories currently regarding this topic.

The first - The Elders CREATIONS are The Engineers 223 (Bio-mech) The Sacrificial Engineers. 

The Elders CREATED The Engineers 223 - These are the ultimate futuristic designer baby. Genetically Engineered organic creations. These beings are made that size. They have the ability to breath on any atmosphere as seen in Prometheus. They are made that size as they need to be strong. The are neither males or females, they are neither they have no need to reproduce, they made to seed worlds. These are clones who all look the same. They were created by The Elders (or a higher being) to interact with seeded worlds. They visit, guide civilisations and report back to The Elders. They are used to wipe planets clean the are deemed unworthy. Every few thousand years or so when a Planet is ready for seeding, they give the ultimate sacrifice in the order of creation (Prometheus intro)

Perhaps these beings grew tired of giving their lives for creation and rebelled against The Elders at some point. A small faction of these creations may of experimented with the Black Goo as a twisted way of breeding as they can NOT reproduce as they were creations made to serve (Like David)

Perhaps this is why the Engineer 223 looks at David almost in sympathy or empathy towards a fellow creation. Before ripping his head off.

The other theory is the Engineers 223 and Sacrificial Engineers are picked from Planet 4 and then genetically enhanced to give all the features that The Engineers 223 have. Their eyes are enhanced to see in another dimension different to humans and can now breathe on any planet having several ways of breathing. You can see "gills" on their neck maybe they breathe underwater too.

These beings are the chosen ones from Planet 4 - Who are the most loyal servants and treated as kings and genetically enhanced then when the time is right, their faces are etched into the mountains on Planet 4 and the chosen one is taken to seed a world and his life as he knows it ends. Perhaps it is a great honour to be chosen.

*When i say "treated as a king" i mean in the engineers sense, not the materialistic world we live in.

This is all for debate depending on what Planet 4 is ????

Is it the Engineers home world?

Is it the closest seeded world to the Covenant mission so David could act out his plan?

Is it just another seeded planet like in Prometheus and contains humanoids which are the end product not humans like us.

Is Planet 4 The afterlife where all The Elders chosen ones were living having been promised eternal life on this hidden planet.

--

As for The Engineers not being a warring race - Maybe they know that in all the Galaxies there are no species who are advanced enough to be able to fly so they dont feel the need.

There was so much in your writing and i will try and get back to it to discuss further.