Prometheus and AVP

I think snorky and SS are making good points here. Sure it's a familiar framework. But it seems like the framework has been fleshed out in a more thought provoking way than AVP. And moreover, RS is pretty openly unhappy with the direction a lot of the storytelling subsequent to Alien went, so making it fresh and keeping it pretty similar is kinda genius. Like snorky was trying to get across-it's not what you do, it's how you do it. Check out the AVP memorable quotes on imdb. Or look up the cheesy visuals. Or the video-game-cut-scene worthy action pieces. A similar framework. Sure. The execution... Surely it won't be news to you, drake, that Shakespeare basically told the same stories that had been told before him. It's how it was done that made it noteworthy. If you wanna crap on Lindelof, by all means. I can get on that train. But the idea that this is a completely recycled story lacking thought provoking ideas is about as absurd as the memorable plot points from AVP. 'Thousands of years ago, these hunters found a backwater planet. They taught humans how to build, and were worshiped as gods. Every hundred years, the gods would return. And when they did, they would expect a sacrifice. Humans were used to breed the ultimate prey. The hunters would battle with these great serpents to prove themselves worthy to carry the mark. But if the hunters lost, they made sure nothing survived. An entire civilization wiped out overnight.' 'So, the humanoids, the hunters, they brought those creatures here to hunt?' 'And they use us like cattle. We're hosts for them to breed. The heat bloom was designed to lure us down here. This whole thing was a trap. Without us, there could be no hunt. ' A reduction to hunters and cattle to get that exposition across. Reminiscent of how you're reducing the Prometheus framework in this thread.

@ Drakeequation: Sorry if I was a bit arsh...but I wanted to make a point... How do you want to speak about gods without tempels or.. how can you approach the theme of life and humans without talking about the big questions of life. How can you talk about life and not touch the sphere of eternal life. Here the old or dying Weyland plays a bigger play.. He is not only the one who has a big big ego, but is the figure that moves all the others... he accept to pay and organize all but only the reach his goal.. maybe eternal life.... his role connect the story with the question of..." can we live for ever?" To make it short... I think these are all logical consequences and choises and situations for somebody who has discovered, maybe, our creators/gods. :)

[b]PLEASE[/b][i][/i] stop talking about AVP. That movie does not exist. It has nothing to do with the production of this film. Even relating any Scott movie to a Anderson film is absurd. The argument for the relation between AVP and Prometheus is critically flawed and I agree wholeheartedly with SaintSin. These are genre conventions! The script for AVP had been siting around for about 20 years before its eventual bastardized form. Originally both Arnold and Weaver were involved with the production. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT between the similarity of Prometheus and ALIEN, Obannan had a hand in the original script for AVP and Alien. It was W.S. bastardization of that script that produced what we now know and hate with a passion. [b]Lets get real here guys.[/b][i][/i] This movie is so exciting and fantastic, why can't we all just get along. How could this be more exciting. In what other Sci -Fi saga have we been treated to a "re-imagining" of the central and core concepts of life and surrealism. I'm banking on Scott here. Not because he is using the conventions of other Sci-Fi films, but because of what he isn't doing. He is crafting a HUGE picture. He is exploring the very star stuff of why we are all fan boys! There will be moments in Prometheus that will define this genre and years later fan boys will be arguing over their "references" in a new recent production, but this is why we love art and film so much. It is the linear, chronological connection between all art that gives it meaning for us. Just as Picasso would have never existed with Monet. Art moves us, and Sci Fi dazzles!

@Snorkelbottom I think my main issue is that Ridley Scott made it seem like this would finally be a science fiction film with great emphasis on the science and philosophy behind creation. My background is in behavioral neuroscience so I was hoping to finally see a film that tackled the big issues in the way they deserved. Instead, it seems like this is going to be another "science" fiction film that I will end up rolling my eyes at. It was my hope, that we would gain insight into the psychology of the Engineers to maybe get some background about how the wiring of our neural circuits might be a less advanced form of theirs. My interest has always been in the biopsychology of motivation (I did a good deal of research and undergraduate work in this area) so I was hoping to see some hints as to what motivates an advanced life-form done in a convincing manner.

[b]PLEASE[/b][i][/i] stop talking about AVP. That movie does not exist. It has nothing to do with the production of this film. Even relating any Scott movie to a Anderson film is absurd. The argument for the relation between AVP and Prometheus is critically flawed and I agree wholeheartedly with SaintSin. These are genre conventions! The script for AVP had been siting around for about 20 years before its eventual bastardized form. Originally both Arnold and Weaver were involved with the production. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT between the similarity of Prometheus and ALIEN, Obannan had a hand in the original script for AVP and Alien. It was W.S. bastardization of that script that produced what we now know and hate with a passion. [b]Lets get real here guys.[/b][i][/i] This movie is so exciting and fantastic, why can't we all just get along. How could this be more exciting. In what other Sci -Fi saga have we been treated to a "re-imagining" of the central and core concepts of life and surrealism. I'm banking on Scott here. Not because he is using the conventions of other Sci-Fi films, but because of what he isn't doing. He is crafting a HUGE picture. He is exploring the very star stuff of why we are all fan boys! There will be moments in Prometheus that will define this genre and years later fan boys will be arguing over their "references" in a new recent production, but this is why we love art and film so much. It is the linear, chronological connection between all art that gives it meaning for us. Just as Picasso would have never existed with Monet. Art moves us, and Sci Fi dazzles!

@ Drakeequation... being in behavioral neuroscience, you should be aware of communication, and that 90% of our communication is non-verbal, or in other words via body language. For example in a job interview most people know what answers to say and what questions to ask, but it is their body language that seals the deal - the person leaning forward and engaging in eye contact is showing more interest than someone slouching and staring at the walls. there are other analogies, but I chose the one you would appreciate... We can all get the ingredients for a recipe, but only those adept can cook fine cuisine.

@ Proxy Say what you want about AVP as a movie, but the motivation for the Predators is much better fleshed out in the script. In Prometheus we are never given any explanation at all for why they do what they do. In terms of writing, AVP is more advanced than Prometheus in that respect. From a visual, directorial, and sound perspective I am sure Prometheus will be light years beyond AVP. That is not what I am discussing here though, I am talking about story.

@ Snorkelbottom I would agree with you IF the Engineer in the film was in charge and not just a soldier following order. His personal reason for attacking the crew might be there, but the order to exterminate Earth was given prior to the arrival of the Prometheus. This is why Shaw is going to travel to the Engineer homeworld at the end of the film. You cannot tell by the body language of an alien soldier why the seeding of life and subsequent genocide of Earth was ordered.

And the full story cannot be summarized in its entirety in a 200 word wiki summary. for example... At the minute I am compiling a chronology on all 10 films, and the plots I have written down for each film take up approx 3 pages each (single line spacing), whereas the wiki versions of the plot don't even fill 1 page. The info that has been spoiled is in summary, the full story is much more detailed, and not in any summary - because it would be too long.

@ Snorkelbottom if the motivation for why they wanted to exterminate us was in the film then why would Shaw be traveling to the Engineer Homeworld with the express purpose of finding that out (which is what the sequel will probably be about) at the end of the film?

@ drake oh sorry man. didn't realize how blindly you view your OPINION as better than others. you want a science fiction story about the behavioral neuroscience relationship between engineers and humans. that actually sounds more lame than AVP. stick to behavioral neuroscience. your discussion of story telling is flawed. at best.

@ drakeequation... i am talking generally, not in relation to one element of the story. You may have experience in how and why people behave, my experience comes from creating and writing stories. the key difference between a good story and a bad one is not its core content, Alien itself is proof of that, but in the layering, the detail and the execution. No offence intended here, but it seems as though you are determined to believe Prometheus will not be an evocative, thought provoking, dramatic, spell binding Sci-Fi classic. It may not have all the answers tied up in a nice and tidy bow, but the best stories never do, loose ends when used right create anticipation and wanting in the audience. Ridley knows this, and has been doing the job long than I have. Wait for the film and have faith... and remember - its just a film.

So your logic is that because I am not a professional story teller, have a background in behavioral neuroscience, and don't agree with you guys, that means Promotheus does not borrow the story structure of AVP and will be the story that was promised by Lindelof and Scott in the countless interviews they gave? That the theme of panspermia and creation will in fact now take center stage instead of the story that was already revealed? Ad hominem attacks at their worst... (more so from Proxy than Snorkelbottom)

My statement was not an attack but an interpretation of the views you put across in your posts. Yes their are parallels in the stories of Prometheus an AVP. Yes the film has been hyped. Yes some peoples expectations for the film are WAY too high. But as I've tried to illustrate, in numerous ways, its not what you do its how you do it - have you seen "It the Terror from Beyond Space" and "Planet of the Vampires". These two films both inspired Alien and share key story elements. But comparing them to Alien is like comparing Happy Shopper Shandy to a 500 year old fine wine. Such is the case with AVP and Prometheus.

I vote to lock this thread the question has been answered and it seems there is no room for debate on the subject

I completely agreed with you that it's a similar framework. I defend that this doesn't limit the possibility of Prometheus being a thought provoking original work. We don't agree over the nature of storytelling in AVP. You praise it. I don't. I don't think RS is breaking promises of originality by using a successful framework. A Lindelof promise is worthless. You said you're talking about story. You don't have to be a professional story teller to appreciate re-using a successful framework. Sure it's a gamble. Telling a story always is. The story you're looking for, tracing the motivations of an advanced life-form would be at least as much of a gamble. Probably wouldn't be the best way to get across the points RS wants to make. And, from your nature, I imagine if RS tried (since he's probably not a behavioral neuroscientist) you would be left rolling your eyes in a much more profound way. These are irrelevant attacks on your argument? You were the one who asked us what we think.

@ Snorkelbottom AVP wasn't THAT bad. lol I said before that I am NOT talking about the film version of Promotheus. I am talking about the story, which is, in essence, Lindelof's script. Lindelof and Scott have been doing tons of interviews talking about how this film will tackle "big issues" (Lindelof more than Scott as he seems to think he is the star here). Now, that said, a cinematic masterpiece can be made even with a story that is almost incomprehensible (David Lynch is evidence of that) but the discussion here is about the story/script. I have not seen the film and can only talk about the script at this time. Saying, "this film is bad" would be dishonest at this point because it could still turn out great. Lindelof's script is what is under discussion here, and not the entire assembled finished product.

AVP wasn't THAT bad to you. But more importantly, you have lindelof's script? Sounds like we're discussing something a little less than the cliffnotes. If you have the script I'll take a look at it and get back to you. Or to go off of snorky's comments...it sounds like you're looking at the ingredients and saying, wait wait wait. This is just mac n chese again. When the layers of flavor and intricate textures have yet to be put together by the chef for you.

@Proxy Now what you wrote there is much more convincing of an argument. The Ad Hominen attack part was referring to,"stick to behavioral neuroscience. your discussion of story telling is flawed. at best." I personally do think that the promise of originality is largely broken when you use a framework that has been used, to great success, in the film series you claim you are distancing yourself from. If I was in a writing course and claimed I was writing an original story that had elements of Hamlet but was its own thing and then used the entire story structure of Hamlet but only changed around the setting and certain characters I think the professor would probably fail me.

@ SaintsSinphony stop trolling this thread, if you don't like it, stop clicking on it.

But we don't know the script, which was originally written by spaihts, then amended by lindelof. What we know is the summary on wiki and various french reviews. Which all together don't amount to much, as mentioned in my previous posts. A script/screenplay is the backbone of a film and is usually 200 pages long, whereas wikis summary is 200 words long... thats a big difference. I do agree with the parallels with AVP, and I also agree that at its core AVP's story is fine and concrete. The difference is the execution - Anderson had the foundation but ruined it, Ridley will not make that mistake. Also, remember that some of the french reviews call the film confusing, while other reviews compare it to opera and epic adaptations. It is there that the grandiose you seek will reside.

@ Snorkelbottom perhaps you are right. I remember The Fountain got an awful lot of terrible reviews but I found it to be a truly amazing film. It had the optimal level of complexity for me as I found that I got more and more insights from it on each repeated viewing. If "too much going on" is really the problem most people have with it, then maybe I will love it after all. Still, the AVP connection is there! lol

Exactly drakeequation... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Individuality, Diversity, Personality; this is the human race, and the alien fan base. The parallels you mention will be used for years to come to argue opinions for and against Prometheus. You will find this in the communities of fans for ALL film franchises. My advice, don't read too much into spoilers and reviews - make up your own mind AFTER watching the film itself... then come back here so we can all argue some more LOL.

@ Snorkelbottom alright lol, hopefully other members of the board will see it before June 8th and be able to add more to this discussion. Unfortunately I still have to wait a good bit =(

A writing professor would understand and appreciate the idea of using a successful framework though. Changing the setting and certain characters can have huge effects on the overall work. Enough to give it originality. Even the fountain, with all its complexity and originality, has a similar framework of a tragic love story. But it was put together in a thought provoking original way. Check out the wiki summary of it, I bet it sounds like a pretty basic tragic love story. So you see, your discussion of story telling is flawed. Originality can still arise from a story that uses a pre-existing framework. Like snorky's been saying, it's a question of how it's put together. If nothing else, we all agree that the AVP connection is there. But there's a huge difference between craft mac n cheese and mac n cheese made by Masaharu Morimoto. You're right that it's basically just noodles and cheese. And I can see why it would bug you if Morimoto went on and on about how groundbreaking of a dish it is and then you get it and you're like...well shit I could have made this at home. And to a certain extent I think the blame for that goes to the amount of interviews they have to do. I think they believe what they say, but you can't blame them for focusing on what they've done that they consider original in the work.

Oh and regards you mention of hamlet, isn't that a retelling of the norse legend of Odin and Thor, or God and Jesus, or Zeus and Perseus, or Zeus (again) and Hercules. If you rewrote Hamlet in a way that was provocative, with deep characters and plenty of intertwining elements no professor would fail you, but instead praise you for understanding the nuances of Hamlet and those of its literary origins.

@ Proxy very well said! I still disagree with some of it, but you framed the issue in a new light that helps me to see where you are coming from. The mac and cheese reference was brilliant! It really sums up what I think is going with a lot of the people not happy with the recent plot reveals. It does seem like you call them (meaning the Fox marketing department) out on what they did here but then let them off the hook. Your rebuttal also brings up a much larger issue of what is meant by "original". I see now that the word is so nebulous that my criteria for "original" may be somewhat different than your criteria for "original".

@ Snorkelbottom I think the professor would fail me if I said I was doing something original with trace elements of Hamlet, but then copied all the events of Hamlet (including the climax and denouement) but set it in a different time period with slightly different characters (Hamlet now has a prosthetic arm). I think what we are really getting tripped up on here is the question of exactly how much Prometheus borrows from AVP and the other Alien films. The Wikipedia makes it seem like it is enough to merit calling Prometheus a remake or "re-imagining" of those films as opposed to a completely new story. But, as you so expertly pointed out, you cannot judge a story by a Wikipedia entry. I think we will have to wait until one of us actually sees the film to get a better understanding of what we are talking about. It seems that until then, we will just keep going in circles due to the extremely limited pool of evidence we have to draw from.

AVP, good or bad, doesn't matter, wasn't the first in that framework either now was it. I read on WIKI that as soon as David awakens the engineer, it kills David, that doesn't fit with the engineer telling David that creating then killing humans is for a greater purpose. (I do like that idea) but also, the creation of "aliens" turned against them? i read that to right. Still excited about seeing the movie tomorrow :p

Fyi the wiki thing turned out to be crap and has since been pulled.