Forum Topic
Gavin
MemberTrilobiteJun-06-2012 3:42 PMTo understand the Secrets of the the contents of the urns/ampules we first have to separate them into their component parts...
[Edited 02-12-2012]
[u]The Seed[/u]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/prometheusE_screencap7.jpg[/img]
A genetically engineered substance created by the Engineers, it is stored within the vials found within the urns/ampules.
This thick, viscous black liquid which was consumed by the Sacrificial Engineer (the Seeding) and unwittingly by Holloway, has three underlining properties:
1. When ingested by an organism (Sacrficial Engineer/Hollway) the "Seed" combines with the cells of the organism, causing the host organism to break down at a cellular level - every cell of their body becoming a viral genetic mutagen, capable of being consumed by other organisms.
2. This viral genetic mutagen, when ingested by other organisms, adds/replaces genes of that organism with those of the host whom consumed the "Seed", imprinting the hosts DNA/Genome onto an indigenous ecosystem. This viral genetic mutagen also acts as an evolutionary accelerant, exponentially mutating organisms with the genetic template/traits from the host (LV-223 worms).
3. The evolutionary accelerant aspect of the mutagen also has the side effect of revitalizing dead/dying cells, seeming resulting in re-animation (Shaws womb/Fifield).
[u]The Black Liquid[/u]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/prometheus_screencap47.jpg[/img]
The black slimy liquid stored within the urns/ampules is NOT the same substance that was stored within the vials, and contrary to my original theoryis NOT the genetic material of the Xenomorph. This substance is an inert transmission medium, that when combined with the Seed creates an oil like substance, making weaponized transmission of the Seed more effective.
[u]The Urns/Ampules[/u]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/prometheusK_screencap31.jpg[/img]
The urns/ampules are medium for storing and deploying both the "Seed" and the transmission medium. When triggered/smashed the "Seed" (see above) and the transmission medium mix, creating an oil like substance, that is more viscous than the Seed, and a more effective means of transmission.
[u]The Xenomorph[/u]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/prometheus_screencap49.jpg[/img]
As shown by this mural, the xenomorph is of some importance to the Engineers. Lets look at their known history regards the Xenomorph...
- Thousands of years ago, an Engineer craft carrying a cargo of Xenomorph was forced to land on the moon/planetoid LV-426 when its lone pilot unwillingly became host to one of its cargo.
It may be that this craft had previosly visited LV-223 and acquired a payload of the urns before deploying them onto a distant planet. Then after acquiring the eggs that would have remained after the infestation befell its fate upon its return either to LV-223 or the Engineers home world/system.
- 2000 years ago, a team of Engineers stationed on LV-223 prepared to deploy a cargo of urns/ampules to Earth, when one of them inadvertantly unleashed the contents quarantining the base.
As seen in the movie, the urns are the viral deployment method used to instigate a Xenomorph infestation. The urns were designed to ensure safe transport and efficient deployment of the Xenomorph.
[u]The Dark Truth - Completely Rethought[/u]
Taking what we have learnt about the urns/ampules, their contents and the Engineers established history with the xenomorph, and combining that with what we have seen in the Prometheus and Alien movies, leads us towards a dark, disturbing truth...
[b]Phase 1 - The Seeding[/b]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/sacrificial_engineer_prometheus2.jpg[/img]
[b]The Engineers visit primordial planets supporting basic, simple life, whereupon a lone "Sacrificial Engineer" ingests the "Seed", sacrificed his life and seeding the planet with the seed and his DNA, resulting in an ecosystem entirely dominated by the Xenomorph (This is what we see at the start of the film).[/b]
[b]Phase 2 - The Rebirth[/b]
[b]An ecosystem dominated by the Xenomorph results in the exhausting of viable hosts. To combat this the Xenomorph at a genetic level introduced Y chromosome into its genome, giving rise to infertile males (smooth carapaced warriors), and then fertile males (Kings).[/b]
[b]Upon consummating with Kings, Queens become capable of producing a second type of egg, incubating a sub-species of hosts, pale skinned humanoids - Engineers.[/b]
[b]Phase 3 - The Harvest[/b]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/david_earth.jpg[/img]
[b]Systematically a percentage of these Engineers are drafted into Engineer society. Seeking a more efficient means of reproducing the Engineers weaponize the Seed, for deployment upon worlds inhabited by Engineer children, sired before the weaponization of the Seed (the method of this siring not yet seen).[/b]
[b]The Xenomorph DNA, hidden with "human DNA" asserts itself and spreads across the sired planets, resulting in a Xenomorph dominated ecosystem. Once all viable hosts are exhausted, the King Xenomorph is sired and Engineers are born.[/b]
[b]Phase 3 - Collection[/b]
[img]http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/snorkelbottom/AlienInfestedWorld.jpg[/img]
[b]The Engineers collect a percentage of Xenomorph (eggs) before transporting them to a location whereby they can be used to produce more Seed (also as yet unseen).[/b]
[u]Why Create Only To Destroy[/u]
[b]Here's a summary of what we know so far...[/b]
[b][/b]
[b]- A Sacrificial Engineer sacrifices his life, seeding life upon a primordial world, using his own genetic material. To date we the fans have assumed this action, through natural selection and engineering, resulted in billions of clones/children of the Engineer to evolve, in his image - us.[/b]
[b]But The consumption of the Seed by Holloway results in the creation of a Xenomorph in the form of the Deacon, therefore we must assume our initial belief to be false - meaning that the Sacrificial Engineer was not siring a planet of life that would evolve into human form, but instead cultivating a world that would be dominated by the Xenomorph.[/b]
[b]- The Urns show that the urns are a means to deploy the Xenomorph amongst human races also sired by Engineers, as shown by the DNA match in the movie.[/b]
[b]- The Xenomorph extrapolates genetic material from its hosts, propagating its own kind.[/b]
[b]- Once all hosts are exhausted, the Xenomorphs would need a means to continue their existence, otherwise they would die, and only their eggs would remain.[/b]
[b]- The Engineers return to gather the eggs.[/b]
[b][/b]
[b]WHY? Why would the Engineers seed a planet to create millions/billions of clones/children in their image and using their own DNA only to later wipe them out using the Xenomorph? Well I believe I may have the answer...[/b]
[b][/b]
[b]The Xenomorph, as we know it, is capable of eradicating an entire ecosystem of its indigenous population by using said life forms as hosts to propagate its own species. When gestating inside a host, Xenomorph embryos extrapolate genetic material and traits from their host, to add to their own genome and to adapt to the environment and ecosystem which they have been deployed into. It is this trait of the Xenomorph I believe that holds the key...[/b]
[u]Genetic Material[/u]
[img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/prometheusO_screencap14.jpg[/img]
[b]We, the human race have evolved from and continue to evolve from the Engineers genetic material. Our genetic material, our genome is almost identical to that of the Engineers. This same genetic material is extrapolated by the Xenomorph, a deadly genetic and bio-mechanical creation held in some regard by the Engineers, themselves expertics in genetic and bio-mechanical engineering.[/b]
[b][/b]
[b][i]To the Engineers the human race are "Maize". Once we have grown to required amount in number and in the required way, we are harvested, and the Xenomorph is the "Harvester".[/i][/b]
[b][/b]
[b]Our genes/DNA/Genome/genetic material is the "Maize", that is what the Engineers want/need, and the Xenomorph is the means by which to harvest our genetic material. But why?[/b]
318 Replies
Sixguns99
MemberOvomorphAug-16-2012 2:43 AMHey guys! Wow, I have found my herd.. I think you guys are on to some great ideas ~ but admittedly Ridley hasn't thought some of this out and has purposefully left these wide open gaps - this enables him to go in any direction he wants with the next movie. I too have a lengthy Extrapolated theory of my own, I'm going to wait until the movie comes out in Extended cut in 55 days before posting it here - after allot more research.
But I wanted to pop in and say this is awesome, you guys are really using your heads - The one thing all of you are might be missing and should consider is Ridley and the screen writer got a ton of there inspiration from real Ancient Alien Theory.. They attempted to thread allot more truth in this movie than you might realize. Here is a hint - search online and view as much of his interviews about the movie and were they are drawing there inspiration from. Remember this is a completely new and stand alone concept from Alien. He trys to stress this big time, I mean he cant get through an interview without sorta of giving me the impression hes done with alien as his hollywood friends have destroyed it in there franshising attempts. Alien 3(point and case, horrible movie / Preditor vs aliens, cool what ifs, but all lacking the vision and direction of Scott). Thanks for readingthis, I rarely partake in forums of any kind ~ all of you are coming from well thought out positions and there is an rare intelligence here.. Rare in that.. Well you know what I mean rare in this Internet world.
Honored to be posting here! See you in 55 days or so and I will be back with some theories that I think will really turn your heads..
-Six
BigDave
MemberDeaconAug-16-2012 6:20 AMWell thats good welcome aboard...
Yes its all personnel speculation really as no body really 100% knows what the Black Goo or the Sacrificial Goo really do, this is due to the ambiguous clues given, and hey maybe Ridley has not made his mind up about what the stuff really is or does, so who knows maybe he may pop on here for some ideas ;)
To break it down in a nutshell here is what is 100% known.
1) The substance the Engineer had taken broke down his molecular structure its disintegrated and broke down his genetics (to what level or form is up for speculation) but it is hinted that the parts of his body and genetics that broke down got into the water and some how either evolved into basic building blocks that started life... or they some how mutated and evolved other life (in some form or other) into new organisms that carried the Engineers DNA.
This is the purpose of the substance within context of the movie.
2) The substance in the Urns seemed to had leaked open when the atmosphere in the room was affected by Breathing Organisms (Human Crew minus their helmets) and this caused them to leak a black fluid and this substance when it comes into contact with a organism somehow (we dont know how) mutates and changes the organism so that it evolves and carries the best traits of the original species and takes on Xeno traits as well.
3) The Urn that David brought back that he froze, seemed to have only a small amount of black substance that is encased within a separate part in those urns and this part seems to be clear but then the Urn also appears to have black substance inside it.
Therefore it could be that somehow something triggers the clear substance to degrade and allow the substance inside (ampules) to react and mix with a substance inside the urns.
These are the only things we really know for sure that are shown, the how, what why are all speculation that each of us will reach different conclusions.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
geopap
MemberOvomorphAug-20-2012 6:43 PMI think that the capabilities of the transparent liquid inside the alien bottle are much alike the liquid used to make the engineer's head live again before it blew up. In a way trick the dead body cells that they are alive and bring the dead organism into a zombie state, but of course their transparent liquid is more advanced. The engineers' technology is suspiciously similar to ours, even the cryo-chambers are much alike.
"... and the sea will grant each man new hope, as sleep brings dreams of home." Christopher Columbus.
Markoy
MemberOvomorphSep-01-2012 10:30 PMhi guys,
im Marco from Italy.
I found your topic very interesting! But I noticed that none of you have read the book "Alien" Foster taken from the original screenplay. In the book Alien Dallas located in the ship engineers on LV-426 a bulb (identical to those seen in Prometheus) empty! While Scott speaks, speaking of Alien, the alien ship as a "bomber", in short, a warship.
Probably the black liquid is a "catalyst", is used to create a specific genetic conditions.
In Alien 1 engineer (or engineers) after losing control of the black liquid were infected in turn and the ship crashed on LV-426. The engineer (pilot) has sent a message of danger, and soon after died (later found to Dallas). I think the black liquid is used to create the Xenomorph or conditions to create them ... All those who come into contact with large amounts of black liquid change showing signs similar to those of the Xenomorph ...
if the engineer is the basis of life, the Xenomorph are the end, serve to destroy it. The engineers are afraid of Xenomorph and after using them have tried to destroy them (remember Prometheus? The mural? its a tomb ...)
in Alien 1 ... attention! Ash defines the Xenomorph ... A "superspite" ... very important thing.
SubsumeYou
MemberOvomorphSep-02-2012 1:57 AM
I disagree, the xenomorphs are not the end and nor are the Engineers afraid of it, they are aware of it's hostile nature it seems, the puzzling stature mural of the Engineer (dominant) over the xenomorph (original form? submissive)....
expanDrums
MemberOvomorphSep-02-2012 5:22 PMif we aren't being harvested. why would the engineers use or need the xeno's to kill us? they could do it themselves. also the way the goo works outside of the prometheus xeno. you would have to have the right elements to create/evolve the xeno we know from the alien movies. from what i read ridley is going to move further away from that franchise so we will probably not learn about how they come to be. i also like the one point about the eggs in the orginal ship chamber versus the urns/etc.
why even bother with the eggs? when you have the goo etc.
has anyone mentioned anything about the 2nd ship that shaw leaves in?
i get how one ship could have had an accident to kill it's crew. bodies fossilized etc by that door with recording of them running from something. but she goes to another location and just flies away with like a back up ship or another cargo ship with a payload of urns ready to go to another location. with no mention of did that crew get killed or why is it just there and does it have any sleeping engineers you can awaken. I didn't like that ending. sorry if i missed something there.
SubsumeYou
MemberOvomorphSep-02-2012 11:52 PM @ ExpanDrums:
The xenos don't kill humans, we haven't seen what a mass bombardment of the black goo actually does. We've only seen two instances of single organisms, both accidents mind you, and that is from the 1979 move and from the 2012 movie.
Again, we have not yet witnessed what a proper mass bombardment of the black goo carrying urns upon a planet is supposed to function.
The 1986 'aliens' MIGHT be a clue but we don''t know if Sir Ridley Scott will acknowledge this or not.
KrazedMadMan
MemberOvomorphSep-03-2012 6:36 AMI Dunno the whole make Humans then use Xenos to get genetic material just seems convoluted and complicated, not to mention way dangerous, we've seen two examples of this getting out of control and the Engineers dying in the process in what seems like pretty controlled enviorments and your talking about planet wide cultivation, to me this smells more of a Civial War, two factions of Engineers maybe, one that creates and one that destroys, maybe one faction came up with this lifeform that they felt was perfect and were rejected due to it's unstable and deadly nature, hence the Mural of an Alien, maybe they created the Giger xenomorph as a weapon with the intention of not only destroying there rivals but everything created in there image, meaning Us, or even just a group of radicals whos Creations got out of control, whatever the case may be only Ridley Scott Knows for sure, but My moneys on some kind of WAR.
BigDave
MemberDeaconSep-04-2012 8:02 AMWell from what i have seen in Prometheus there is not enough evidence to suggest that dropping Urns to spill the Goo would result in anything quite like the Xeno.
Yes it would evolve and mutate Organism into Organisms that have Xeno traits, but there was only one Organism in the movie that resembled the Xeno closely and that was Shaws Baby.
Shaws Baby is exactly like how the original Face Hugger in Star Beast was described.
Shaws Baby grows big fast and becomes the very large Trilobite that acts in the same manner with the same purpose as a Face Hugger only larger.
Its finds a host it attaches to the host and implants a embryo into the Host then it dies.
This Embryo then Grows into a Large Chest Buster the Deacon which is similar process as the Xeno Chest Buster....
The Deacon was larger than a Chest Buster Xeno because the Trilobite was larger than a Face Hugger they are similar Organisms but not quite the same. Its not a case of Larger Engineer = Larger Chest Buster.
Because the Alien Space Jockeys Chest Buster Hole was not big enough for a Deacon it was similar size to a Xeno one. And the sarcophagus on the Juggernaut had holes similar sizes.
So i think in order to produce anything like a Xeno the Goo must in small amounts come into contact with a Organism and affect it at a slow rate like Holloway and then a sex with another must happen, basically the same set of circumstances that led to Shaws Baby.
I would not rule out that someone who is just pregnant then gets the goo would also result in a fetus that more resembles the Xeno.
To me the Goo Evolves and changes things into many different Organisms with Xeno Traits depending on the level of contact with the Substance and the Original Organism.
This pretty much is like the seed the Sacrificial Engineer had done when he was broken down, his DNA either evolved and mutated basic life forms or it evolved into them itself.
Its hinted that this Engineers breaking down seed, did not just make mankind it made many different forms of life and this happened via Evolution and so we cant assume that shortly after the Water Fall Scene that Humans just sprouted up.
So if its believed the Black Goo can create the Xeno, then how come the Sacrificial Engineer never just created Humans or indeed other Engineers.
It may had done but the scene shows little, the Art of Prometheus book seems to instead show Engineers DNA fusing with basic Organisms and then shows a image of a reptile/amphibian coming out of the water just as the theory of Evolution.
Thus the movie is going for that Earth had basic lifeforms that when mixed with the DNA/Seed of the Engineer then provided all the elements to kick start the traditional Evolution Cycle.
Ridley also said they came back to upgrade us many times, so again we dont know if they then further mixed Engineer DNA with the lifeforms created via Engineers seed to then change into early Primates and then again when mixing Primate DNA with Engineer we get Humans. This is purely speculation based on Evolution and what Ridley said about the Engineers giving us upgrades throughout History.
Therefore looking at the different kinds of life on Earth and how they are all different to the Engineer i then look at how the organisms in Prometheus look different to the Xeno. The organisms that come into contact with the stuff in the Urns. Just like the Organisms in Earth via the seed of the Sacrificial Engineer.
Which makes me think again the Urns contain genetic material and DNA from a Xeno that has been broken down using same process the Engineer did at the start of the movie.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
KrazedMadMan
MemberOvomorphSep-05-2012 12:12 AMI like Most of what Bigdave is saying, that the urns may be broken down Xenos, maybe Xenos are just another lifeform that has nothing to do with being created by Engineers, maybe the ship in alien and aliens is a previous attempt at transporting this other lifeform they found, maybe it's genetics are so strong that tho the squid baby is a engineered xeno it's DNA ultimately finds it's way back to a Giger Form, thus the Giger Chest burster in the final scene, maybe the Engineers we have seen thus far are nothing more than grunts or soldiers of a more advanced Engineers class, maybe they wern't trying to kill us so to speak but there plan was just another upgrade to Xenos.
This would all make an intresting story line, but I still think theres/was a WAR of the Engineers going on, my reasoning is simple, if the plan was to bring the urns to Earth then why hasn't the home planet of Engineers simply gone back to the bio base and sent them, of course unless there all dead or that was only the plan of some of the Engineers??? Hmmm so many questions.
BigDave
MemberDeaconSep-05-2012 9:16 AMYes interesting points raised.
Regarding the Squid Baby Shaw had and how that is the most closet we see to the Original Xeno Cycle.
Here is why i think so....
You see if the substance mutates lifeforms it comes into contact with, and thus creates Hybrid where the Organism sees some of its traits evolved to a whole new level (Hammerpede Worms Rabid Regrowth of its head) while also containing Xeno DNA and Traits.
We would assume it mutates the cells of the original Organism to hybrid with Xeno cells and DNA.
We have to remember that a Egg is the basic form of a animals life cycle from a fertilized Egg grows a stage one embryo now the embryo at stage one of a Human, a Dog, a Cat, a Ape, a Cow, a Horse, a Whale etc are all very very similar.
Why do they look similar? because they all evolved from the same orginal orgins and at that stage they are in the process of changing to develop the traits of its mother and thus while they all look very similar at stage one, at latter stages a Dog, a Human and a Whale will all start to look different and look more like their parents species.
So i assume that a Stage One embryo has far less Human DNA to mutate and thus it develops more into a Organism that contains far less Human DNA but more Xeno.
I would also assume that the Engineers are at War but with who? Maybe each other or their Elders or their creators or another race entirely we just dont know.
Before Prometheus the idea given by Ridley was the Xeno was a Bio Weapon, this was carried on in the Franchise, Ridley also said the Derelict was a Bomber and carrying a Cargo of Bio Weapon Eggs.
He had touched upon that even more since Prometheus.
There are some plot holes as far as Prometheus 2 and the Homeworld.
One main one is that if the Homeworld Engineers/Elders or what ever had the same agenda as the LV 223 Engineers and that was to destroy Mankind 2000 years ago... then why have they not checked on the progress of that mission?
If they knew about our creation then why have they not come back to visit us and if they knew of Lv 223 how come its been deserted for so long.
Question would be do the Engineers or who ever on the Homeworld know about Earth, LV 223? Our creation and attempt to try to wipe us out? Do they know of the Xeno?
Or are they unaware of such things, was the Xeno intended for them as a rebellion by the Engineers? Or did they know about us but a rogue fraction decided to take out the Engineer Elders and then take out their creation?
So many many possibilities and hopefully we shall find out in Prometheus 2.
Which is why i feel we would not see Xenos or Black Goo in Prometheus 2, but maybe at the end or Prometheus 3 would see us then get the reasons and process for the Goo and LV223 and then maybe the Xeno and thus all may be finally answered.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
chainsawsquirrel
MemberOvomorphSep-19-2012 3:09 PMI would say the engineers being at war is quite a safe bet also. One other thing to consider is that the Giger alien and the deacon alien could possibley be different because of how they were made. So, what i'm saying is, the deacon (as we know) was created under almost accidental circumstances, involving the black goo. But, maybe to create the Giger alien, there must be a controlled operation, using the contents of the urns with the black goo correctly. Maybe the deacon was different because not all of the xenomorph genes from the black goo were spliced into the human DNA, thus the genetic modification was incomplete. In which case, this suggests that all the xenomorph genes were correctly spliced into the human DNA in order to create the Giger alien. Also consequently, the deacon is more human than the Giger alien. For instance, it has no tail, it has skin rather than exo-skeleton, the teeth are white and not metallic, the gums are pink and not black and it even had an umbilical cord.
BigDave
MemberDeaconSep-19-2012 5:29 PMYes thats how i saw it the Deacon looked more Human than the Alien Xeno.
And i think its because the Face Hugger Squid came about via Human DNA where as the Xeno in Alien and Aliens etc came directly from the Eggs.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Atch
MemberOvomorphSep-19-2012 11:39 PMYou guys are making this too complicated. The xenomorph is an unintended consequence of messing around with genetic material. The originator of this post, I believe is right. The reason the engineers "seed" is to develop gentic material that is suitable for continuing their species. They have cloned themselves out of being able to reproduce. However, they seeded Earth only to find that the resulting species, even though we share their exact DNA, is weaker, slower, less evolved, etc. They don't need the xeno to wipe out anything. The goo quickly facilitates the breakdown of any organism that comes into contact with it on a molecular level and restructures the DNA to its original form. The xeno morph is born as a result of natural selection...not the goo. That being said, it was the captains theory that the vials were some sort of weapon. It is an assumption. Perhaps the vials are simply an indication of how many planets had been seeded by these engineers. I think though that most people are missing the point. I like that there are no answers. It is a lesson about the nature of asking why. In this sense, curiosity did kill the cat. Because we use the term "god" as an answer to life's greatest mystery, curiosity will always be an open ended thing. Shaw had faith. Even in the aftermath of her entire horrifying situation, her faith is ultimately her flaw because it did not allow her to simpl walk away. I don't believe RS will answer anything...I think it will just be another can of unanswered worms until people realize that there is nothing wrong with not having an answer. You will find yourself less disappointed most of the time if you simply accept that the answer to life's greatest mystery must NECESSARILY be: unknown. Otherwise, the universe wouldn't work...and this masterpiece of cinema would have never been made.
sevendusting
MemberOvomorphSep-20-2012 12:04 AMI like the OPs fact and theory compilation. I fancy the idea however that the roles of Xeno and Engineer are quite opposite. The Xenos want to evolve and use the enslaved Engineers to give them a constant food/evolutionary booster by seeding the galaxy. We're (we're) just a case of the hunted becoming the hunters. Maybe the Engineers were a self evolved race that battled the Xenos for eons eventually coming into a state of inability to reproduce, even with their vast technological advancement were unable to maintain evolution to sustain continued population beyond cloning. To continue on as a species in some capcity, they bowed to the Xenos and became their minions. Maybe the Engineers simply revere the Xenos and seed the galaxy in tribute. So many fun and plausible scenarios. It's SciFi and therefore has no definitive causality because cannon is granted full manipulation by the creator and these films are snippets in a tale of awesome scope. Still... very cool either way it turns out. If any of these ideas were disproved or mentioned in any other post/thread, I apologize. No time to read 100s of pages.
BigDave
MemberDeaconSep-20-2012 6:52 AM"he goo quickly facilitates the breakdown of any organism that comes into contact with it on a molecular level and restructures the DNA to its original form"
I dont know what you mean by that?
If thats the case then would the Engineer who broken down into the Water simply reconstruct as Engineers?
Why did the Worms not well become Worms, why did Fifield not well become Fifield and how did Shaw end up with that Baby.
The Answer is simple as far as the properties.
The Goo the Engineer drank broke down his Genetics and DNA which then reconstructed to evolve into more complex life. You see i think what happened was his broken down genetic material comes into contact with basic lifeforms like Bacteria and it then evolves and mutates the said basic lifeforms and rebuilds its genetics with the Engineers to create various lifeforms that some how can trace their DNA back to the original seed which was the material the Engineer had broken down into.
The stuff in the Urns was different, it was similar in one fashion and that was it mutated and changed the genetics of what ever life form it infected and these lifeforms then Evolve and Mutate into new Organisms that appear to have Xeno DNA and Traits.
If thats not the case then why does the Worms, Fifield and Holloway etc not break down like the Sacrificial Engineer did and also how come if the other way round the Engineer was not mutated into something like we saw in Prometheus.
My theory again sounds plausible and that what ever was in that Sacrificial Bowl breaks down the DNA and Genetics of what ever it comes into contact with into a substance that can then evolve other life forms and carries over traits of the original lifeform that consumed the substance.
Thus if you used this stuff on say a Shark then the Shark would break down and the material would mutate what ever it came into contact with into hybrid organisms that carry some of the Sharks Traits.
Thus the reason for the Goo in the Urns mutates things into organisms that have Xeno traits is because it contains broken down Xeno DNA that was obtained with the substance the Sacrificial Engineer had taken.
If its not that, then the Urns contains the stuff the Sacrificial Engineer had taken mixed with some other substance that contains Xeno DNA, well a substance that created the Xeno and also creates other lifeforms that have same DNA.
But i am still on the side of the fence that says the stuff comes from the Xeno as a attempt to re-weaponize the Bio Weapon.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
chainsawsquirrel
MemberOvomorphSep-20-2012 9:34 AMalthough i didn't read all of this guys post, there can be no natural selection on lv 223 as that planet is uninhabitable outside of the cave and ship. secondly, how the hell did the engineers know about the xenomorph before hand and even have a mural on the wall of the Giger alien? and the weapon that the captain describe the vials as was a reference to the xenomorphs. he saw what it did to holloway, it turned him into a beast, a monster and would have done more had the gene therapy been allowed to continue which would have turned him into a xenomorph like creature. the xenomorphs are the weapon, a bioweapon, hence why they were wanted through out the aliens series by the company for their BIOWEAPONS devision.
oduodu
MemberXenomorphSep-21-2012 8:28 AMTo all
halloway was infected with the virus(assuming the stuff in the vials are the virus) would the virus be able to be sexually transmitted ? Would Shaw be able to get some of the virus into her body ? Would sperm alone alone be able to repair her ovaries / fallopian tubes ?
Someone somewhere said something about drinking ? Was she maybe drinking from the same glass ? Also something about injecting herself - maybe with some anti viral ?
BigDave
MemberDeaconSep-21-2012 5:14 PM@chainsawsquirrel
Well while it may seem the planet is uninhabitable to Humans, the last Engineer managed to survive outside for short time and dont forget the Worms it appears they may have been brought into the temple from mud stuck at the bottom of the crews boots.
So they may have either come from the outer parts of the cave or outside the cave.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
chainsawsquirrel
MemberOvomorphSep-21-2012 5:16 PM assuming that the black goo causes gene therapy to take place, using genes inside the goo it's self which give traits of the xenomorph; who's to say that the black goo couldn't have also altered the genes associated with reproductive systems, and altered shaws own reproductive system, allowing her to reproduce? Yes, it could be a virus, the future of gene therapy is looking at using virons to do the gene splicing. However, this would not work when such a small amount of virons entered holloway's body, and especially after it going through his stomach and digestive system. he'd be more likely to crap it out rather than become "infected". However, for shaw to produce the facehugger-like foetus as seen in prometheus, it would have to mean that holloway's balls got genetically altered, and thus the gametes produced would inherit the genes spliced into his DNA by the black goo in his drink. Also, shaw could not have also been "infected" by this "virus" in any way, sexually, or any other way because if she was, she'd have suffered the same symptoms as holloway did when he was "infected". But she didn't, therefore there is no virus. Otherwise, according to you, it'd have been transmitted to her sexually or by the glass holloway drank from which you claim she may have shared.
chainsawsquirrel
MemberOvomorphSep-21-2012 5:20 PM@Bigdave, the thing is, the amount of evolution needed to get from the deacon to the giger alien through the process of natural selection would take how many thousands of years? 10? 20? who knows, it's just a long time, too long infact. And considering that there's absolutely NO indigenous life or ecosystems on Lv223, i think it's a safe assumption that the deacon did not evolve into the giger alien through natural selection on Lv223.
oduodu
MemberXenomorphSep-22-2012 10:03 AMchainsawsquirrel
You might be right that she wasn't infected .
I heard someone talk about one of the deleted scenes where Shaw was drinking alcohol and then injecting herself.
So please understand I may have completely misunderstood or read wrongly . So please understand the premise I am working from.
If my statement that Shaw was drinking is correct (and injecting herself) then was she maybe drinking from the same glass Holloway was drinking that David gave him with the infected alcohol ?
When Holloway came into her room she says : I cant help but wonder if there was an outbreak here " she was afraid of infection.
So I believe the injection she gave herself was an anti viral/biotic/fungal agent ..
Now in this thread on a previous post I provided a link to a youtube video that features the guy from wetadigital that did the video of the sacrificial engineer breaking down - his commentary indicated that the stuff is a virus that causes the DNA to break down and reform and recombine. Now would only the DNA be drifting around in the water ? Wouldn't the free radicals destroy the DNA immediately ? So what was protecting the DNA after it reformed and recombined ? How was it going to write itself into the genome of amoeba like organisms alive In the water ? It is likely that it reformed and recombined and remained a virus . How else would it be able to write itself into genome of other organisms ? So in this case by absorption as a virus ? Maybe its a bacteria ? Would it be able to be absorbed through the skin ? The sacrificial engineer had the virus spreading through his body
without being digested first so it probably works through absorption
That's why I believe the stuff David took out of the vial is a virus also containing the genome of the xenomorph in all parts of its lifecycle - egg- facehugger - embryo (or embryo virus) adult xenomorph . All these organisms have been broken down the same way the engineer was broken down at the start . These resultant liquids I believe was also a virus (as I explained above ) and they were mixed to form a single substance we see in the vials . Depending on the host that is infected it will mutate into different things. A worm / sperm becomes facehugger - humanoids that are awake and moving around becomes Xenomorphs and humanoids asleep lying in a horizontal position might have chestburster developing in them . Very wild and inconsistent I know to a theory I posted a couple of days ago .
This substance/ virus can be absorbed through the skin or ingested.
But whether or not is a virus:
THE PoINT is : it is absorbed into body through whatever part it comes into contact with.
Now does this have to do with Shaw ? Might it be that in the short time she may have been infected that her ovaries were healed or maybe the lining of her womb was unable to supply blood to the embryo ? And then she injects herself thereby killing the virus ? And then when holoway s infected sperm passed into her womb found an egg to impregnate. So she was healed and didn't have to carry the effect of the infection as it might have been killed after injecting herself ? (might the infection have been slowed down and Shaw is slowly becoming stronger like Ripley in resurrection)
I also believe that the egg (the container part ) is homogeneous to a womans womb and the facehugger is homogeneous to mans sperm as the sperm is a DNA delivery meganism .
Might it be that the trilobite had only holloways DNA and no egg from Shaw only needing the womb to develop ? Unlikely.
Whatever comes from the extended deleted scenes when the bluray is released I just wonder : will whatever these additional scenes provide be considered canon ?. Will the Director of p2 use only what we he sees in p1 and forget about the deleted scenes as cameron did with alien ? That's why I am very lazy to form any final theory at this stage because we don't know if whatever is revealed in these scenes will bE considered as canon by the director of p2
Then what is the point of forming theories based on them ?(as they will not be considered canon )
That's why I don't think a final coherent theory can be developed until we have an answer to the above.
Also in one of the deleted scenes I heard something about a cocoon.......discovered bY fifield and milburn .....will egg morhing remain in deleted cut scenes ? And a2 - a3(a4??) remain the basic xenomorph universe Ridley works from ?
I am very certain my theory is incorrect as many more things might be revealed.
chainsawsquirrel
MemberOvomorphSep-23-2012 4:29 AMagreed, the DNA is USELESS with out a cell to transcribe and translate in etc, therefore it's hardly gonna change anything if it's just floating around in the water. Therefore, to be broken up and then recombined, the virons/bacterial cells would have to take a full set of chromosomes from a cell nucleus of an engineers cell, and then the DNA can be rewritten inside the viron/bacterial cell to this new sequence. And how the heck did these free radicals in the water come into existance? anyway, we didn't see any of that. we didn't see the DNA being taken into viral cells or bacterial cells and rewritten, we just saw the DNA being broken apart and "corrupted" by the black liquid, where the liquid just coats the DNA and forms small, black crystals on it. This ofcourse is impossible since DNA is too small a molecule to appear to be pigmented like that by another chemical under that level of magnification. Also, we can't actually see DNA as a double helix, that's merely a model of how it looks like, but we've never really seen it to look like that. if you put it under SEM, it's just long line.
The point is, we're trying to explain this film in more detail and and depth in terms of science than the writters of the film set out to do. They never thought it through this deeply, and therefore didn't write the story to coinside with the science on this level of detail. The only way you can really make the theory for explaining this stuff in the film work, is if you pretend ur dumb and say what ur average person on the street knows from recollection of gcse biology to explain the unexplained events in the film. That's the only way of getting the answer because that's the way the writers and ridley scott were thinking when they wrote and directed the film. so the only way to see the right 'picture', is to look at it the right way.
so therefore, trying to explain this the way i tried to explain this a while back, and the way ur trying to explain this now is pointless.
oduodu
MemberXenomorphSep-23-2012 4:49 AMCahinsawsquirrel
Yep we would be destroying the ambiguity !!
BigDave
MemberDeaconSep-23-2012 2:20 PM@chainsawsquirrel
Yes thats right and its as i thought all along and that is the Deacon does not evolve into the Progenitor of the Xeno, it is actually the Xeno thats the Progenitor to the Deacon.
We can not digest this movie with the most complex of Science, it is Sci Fi and its going on the premise of Science but than also Fiction to allow things to happen that when we dissect the movie are Scientifically flawed.
I do not believe Shaw is infected only thing that happened was somehow Holloways Sperm got infected to transfer the genetics and DNA of a Xeno to her Egg which was fertilized by Holloway.
We have to look at that just because someone cant have babies does not mean they do not produce Eggs, some men cant have babies but they still produce Sperm just the Sperm is defective and cannot fertilize a Egg.
Basically the idea of the movie is that the Sacrificial Engineer has his genetic code and DNA broken down by the Substance in the Bowl to then produce a broken down material that carries the Engineers DNA and thus then mutates and evolves basic life forms into complex ones.
The Planet had Trees and they need CO2 and so the Water had basic life forms such as Bacteria already in it and the Engineers broken down seed simply combined with these lifeforms and mutated and evolved them into complex life that would carry Engineer DNA.
We see the stuff in the urns mutate and evolve organisms to carry Xeno DNA and traits. But they dont carry Engineer DNA and traits just as the Life on Earth did not Carry Xeno.
Which again makes me think that the stuff in the Bowl was used to break down Xeno DNA as it was to break down Engineer DNA only the Xeno DNA Substance was collected and stored in the Urns, and the Engineers well it diluted into the Water.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
MoonMan
MemberOvomorphSep-30-2012 8:32 AMThe only problem I have with the OP's theory is that the engineers wouldn't be able to prevent the Xenos from exterminating all mammalian life. We've already seen a Xenomorph attack an unsuspecting dog in Alien 3. I can't imagine the engineers wanting genetic information from Zebras and Elephants in their own mix.
Also if the engineers want/need genetic diversity from their "children" to perpetuate their species, based on the observation that they look like clones of each other, and there are no females, then it's not working(!) because they look like clones of each other and there are no females!!
QUIS UT DEUS!?
MemberOvomorphOct-02-2012 12:30 PMMy thinking is these Engineers could fall in the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim]Nephilim[/url] category (Genesis 6,4):
- they are gigantic,
- they are neither God, nor angels, nor humans.
Who knows! :O)
I really like this movie, it doesn't stop your imagination with a happy perfect ending that explains (I meant spoils) the magic within.
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