SPOILER ALERT - Did you catch the Engineer kneeling/Genuflecting?

Greetings! My first post! Regarding the Last Engineer “bowing”. Upon seeing the movie for the second time I noticed far more about his actions after being awoken by David. I actually failed to notice his bow/kneel on the first viewing, I caught it on the second! Interestingly, upon awakening what the engineer chooses to do is go round to the side of the humans and go to one knee, as if he is trying to recover a bit from his awaking. He is definitely looking down at floor at first. I interpreted his position as kneeling, I didn’t think of bowing (to the humans) but I think it could indeed be interpreted as that. (maybe he was praying, giving thanks he is alive ?). Whether bowing or kneeling this position stuck me as very important! He looks intimidating due to his mass and obvious strength; however he is not face to face with the humans. Instead, on his knee he is presenting himself sideways, it is a non-threatening pose. But on the other hand it could be interpreted as a confident (or unconcerned?) pose - as it is also a somewhat vulnerable position – indicating to me that he does not feel under threat, and does not feel the need to be on the defensive either (or maybe he simply awaiting something e.g. orders?), or display his full height thus towering over everyone. He is composed while at the same time not domineering. He does not seek to immediately confront the humans in his presence. Instead they confront him - on his own ship and on his territory! He is also at their eye level and remains so when being questioned and despite their obvious agitation and visible weapon(s?). Personally I would have never predicated that he’d go to one knee/bow upon waking. I would have guessed he’d at least try to stay on his feet or put some distance between himself and them as the humans are an unknown quantity and try and figure out what the hell they are doing here. Why does he seem so unperturbed at first? While he is in the kneeling position I was immediately reminded of the upper body of "The Thinker", a bronze and marble sculpture by Auguste Rodin: http://www.artble.com/artists/auguste_rodin/sculpture/the_thinker/more_information/analysis “The seating of the figure is interesting as it immediately invokes the contemplative mood of this piece that would have been hard to create were the man stood up or looking out into the distance. The hunched torso is simple but adds to the sense of power that is apparent but by no means threatening.” I was also reminded of genuflecting - bending at least one knee to the ground - from early times a gesture of deep respect for a superior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genuflection I know that perhaps he had to go down on one knee due to feeling weak or woozy but surely adrenalin would have kept him on his feet if he felt endangered or confused or he would at least had a bit of alarm written on his face. I think he rests an elbow on his knee. If he wanted to get up quickly wouldn’t he have placed both hands on the ground? (I will have to see how he gets up – I can’t remember!) His head then goes up and he listens to the questions asked and makes eye contact, whether he understands them is a mystery. I can’t say he does and I can’t say he doesn’t. He never utters a word so we are left to rely on body language. Once Shaw is stuck in the abdomen that is when he stands to his full height, indicating to me that he is feeling sudden alarm and concern by the violence he has just witnessed, it seems like an instinctive response, alarmed humans will naturally get to their feet too. The moment he chooses to stand is perhaps the moment things change and he becomes potentially deadly. If Shaw had not been struck would he have remained on his knee for a bit longer and would violence not have occurred? Or was the violence that ensued simply inevitable? After he rips off David’s head he lets out a roar, which I interpreted as fury. I think the kneeling/bow is very important but I can’t quite put my finger on it and I am glad it was noticed by others. Shaw says the cave paintings are an invitation but perhaps his bowing/kneeling was in fact the invitation ?!! How do engineers greet each other I wonder? This film may have its flaws but I have to say the Last Engineer meeting scene is brilliantly done and is finely nuanced and far more complex than it first seems, it also happens so quickly that it needs to be watched more than once. So much though must have gone into it.

@Dan, on David, I never got the impression David had an agenda either. It seems that he has objectives programmed into him (probably by Weyland) to gather as many specimins/objects of importance as possible. Peter Weyland being as powerful as he was probably looked at the mission as something he would return to earth with success and assumed he would survive. Perhaps his ego didn't leave room for doubt about his success. So on his return, he could examine what David brought back for him. Also, David appears to be programmed to not act violently toward any human. I noticed when David was confronted by Vickers in the hall about what Peter Weyland said to David, Vickers shoved David into the wall and threatened him in order to find out what was discussed. David didn’t bother to even slightly resist her attack. I don't think David would have been shoved into a wall if he were to intentionally stand still. Actually, I don’t think David ever acted against anyone at all. His comments might seem like he intends to cause harm eg. “Doesn’t everyone want their parents dead?” But we know David does not ‘want’, so this doesn’t include him. David’s actions toward Halloway could be considered “against humans” but perhaps it was one of those ‘loopholes’ you mentioned, in order to bring back a specimen in a human for further study, he wittingly aroused Halloway’s emotions and spiked his drink. (Perhaps analyzing that he could put Halloway in hypersleep to take his body back to earth for study) Then he gets lucky after Halloway is killed, and finds that Shaw is impregnated, (I don’t think he planned on the two to mate and plant a seed) and attempts to put Shaw into hypersleep until they return home. Shaw is one of David’s specimens. One more thing… At the end of the movie, when Shaw tells David that she is planning on going to the Gardener’s home planet instead of earth, you can see when she asks him if he can direct her there, he pauses and answers “yes”, but I think the pause was him processing all of the actions it would take to do what she intended and still getting back to earth with as many specimens/objects of importance he was programmed to collect for study in the first place. Even with Weyland dead, he's a slave to his programming. Sorry for all the rambling, looking forward to hearing any thoughts

@Dan, on David, I never got the impression David had an agenda either. It seems that he has objectives programmed into him (probably by Weyland) to gather as many specimins/objects of importance as possible. Peter Weyland being as powerful as he was probably looked at the mission as something he would return to earth with success and assumed he would survive. Perhaps his ego didn't leave room for doubt about his success. So on his return, he could examine what David brought back for him. Also, David appears to be programmed to not act violently toward any human. I noticed when David was confronted by Vickers in the hall about what Peter Weyland said to David, Vickers shoved David into the wall and threatened him in order to find out what was discussed. David didn’t bother to even slightly resist her attack. I don't think David would have been shoved into a wall if he were to intentionally stand still. Actually, I don’t think David ever acted against anyone at all. His comments might seem like he intends to cause harm eg. “Doesn’t everyone want their parents dead?” But we know David does not ‘want’, so this doesn’t include him. David’s actions toward Halloway could be considered “against humans” but perhaps it was one of those ‘loopholes’ you mentioned, in order to bring back a specimen in a human for further study, he wittingly aroused Halloway’s emotions and spiked his drink. (Perhaps analyzing that he could put Halloway in hypersleep to take his body back to earth for study) Then he gets lucky after Halloway is killed, and finds that Shaw is impregnated, (I don’t think he planned on the two to mate and plant a seed) and attempts to put Shaw into hypersleep until they return home. Shaw is one of David’s specimens. One more thing… At the end of the movie, when Shaw tells David that she is planning on going to the Gardener’s home planet instead of earth, you can see when she asks him if he can direct her there, he pauses and answers “yes”, but I think the pause was him processing all of the actions it would take to do what she intended and still getting back to earth with as many specimens/objects of importance he was programmed to collect for study in the first place. Even with Weyland dead, he's a slave to his programming. Sorry for all the rambling, looking forward to hearing any thoughts

I'll go ahead and explain the xenomorph here too: 1) The one forwarding (star) address the Engineer/Space Jockeys/Gardeners did leave us (multiple times all over earth) is a site being set up with an idol surrounded by urns of transgenic virus set to release and did release upon the door re-opening. (for what happened to the Gardeners manning the site 2000 years ago ask me and I'll tell). 2) That virus is not just a single species ender, rather it is a "garden ender" for all multicellular life on an earth, aka a garden of eden- it will kill via aggressive transmission any multicellular creature from a worm, to a dog, or a human and it will employ the genes of the creature that it takes on as a bio-tool to kill the rest of those creatures - not just some - all the creatures in all the gardens that house the problematic species, such as earth humans. How so? 3) By whatever method [u]this virus is successfully transmitted by[/u], bite, scratch, spray, or (as graphically laid out [u]exactly visually[/u] by the wall mural next to the big head idol in the 'urn room') eventually by cell meiosis) that is how it continues. By cell meiosis you say - what does that mean? 4) When the infected scientist, Charlie Holloway, has sex with his anthropologist wife, Elizabeth Shaw, his infected sperm cells are the virally transformed single cell transmission organism into her normal human host egg. Note: (it wasn't a human to human infection, it wasn't a direct infection like Charlie and Fifield; it was spermatozoa to egg meiosis). So 5) That monster in the surgery bed (that eventually ‘mates’ with that last 'Engineer' before its tail dies) doesn't look vaguely human because it is a virulently transformed spermatozoa (coupled with a human egg) organism (Note: this is cinematically foreshadowed by the white worms in the soil transforming in the black muck of the isolation chamber into deadly snake white like creatures.) This means 6) It is a 'mid-species' transmission cell which is working from a single celled entity, a spermatozoa which has all human DNA and yet a sperm like body which were the inherited transmission method not just to infect, but to perform multicellular meiosis with a host creature (who is essentially is a multicellular egg to it). So just to be clear, 7) This is origin of the facehugger, a transformed single celled organism that can't truly live on its own, a spermatozoa coupled with a human egg. At which point, it,a face hugger, is an organsim with many of the attributes of the DNA it came from, plus some viral advantages like acid for blood, tough, amazingly aggressive, etc. You sure you wanted to know this? 8) So the 'new xenomorph' at the end of the movie is a virally transformed human sperm cell merged with a human egg cell. This begets a xenomorph who inherits the sperm cells characteristics, aka the facehugger, to implant its DNA in an egg to perform meiosis - this is a novel twist over simple viral infection on a DNA/cellular- the virus has become a multicellular organism. Don't believe it yet? Here have a look at this pic of it from the movie: http://www.prometheus2-movie.com/media_display_img.php?id=503 http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p589/jokerdeldesierto/315zuyw.jpg 9) Just as the mural shows, this is how it progresses from a virus into a creature. 10) Note as well this xenomorph has earth human like white teeth and pink gums on its two jaws. The pointier head and fully bodied birth might just be a growing stage we've never seen before. OR it could also be that the Xenomorph via meiosis always has recessive and dominate traits takes on some characteristics. OR - unjustifiably speculative - it might be that since this breed has an earth human father ('donating' the spermatozoa) and an earth human mother ('donating' the womb and egg), this is a version of a xenomorph coming from black goo virus to phenotype via earth humans and adopting their aspects. This might indicate that the Xenomorph from Alien, Aliens, etc. originated from black goo virus to phenotype taking on the characteristics of another, yet unseen race, but this is incredibly tenuous so I'd discount it. Want to know more or have something explained, just ask and have a lovely day.

Hmmmm.... I watched it twice and really don't see the Engineer bowing down. What I saw was someone that spent 2000 years laying down trying to stand up for the first time in 2000 years and having a little of struggle with it... I think you're reading too much into it.

Keep it coming.

@Fab_Deacon I respect that and thought that too for a while until I saw it a second time. Tell you what, knowing what I told you, watch it again and watch the whole series. How he coughs and then jumps up (startling Weyland - a distraction). how he gets into the very uniform and formal kneeling head to the floor bow. If you still think he's resting from space sleep and that isn't a bow, please let me know.

He has the same DNA as humankind. He is getting up from a 2000 year pod sleep. He is throwing up just like the humans do. Otherwise, there was no reason to introduce the humans throwing up into the script.

@Darrell41653, what would you like to know? Please be specific if you can. Also, I added some to the initial post and the xenomorph post - so perhaps reread. Let me know on anything you'd like to know and thanks for supporting the movie. Best, Dan

@LanSolo - Yes, you're exactly right. You understand movie formula up to a point as an audience member, but not as Ripley Scott does as a professional director. Why do you think Scott put all the hamfisted forshadows in? Why show us 'hamfistedly' David plop his finger into the drink he gives Charlie - with a special shot and big 'plop' sound? We were looking for that anyway right because we knew what David was up already, yes? Movies force feed ideas and facts, but take it up a step now. A good director can use those to hide things as well. So the thing I'd offer you might be missing is that to create mystery Scott has to plant understandings that will allow the audience to cloud the interpretation of the Engineer/Space Jockey/Gardener's bow because it tells a lot about what isn't known. Scott uses not just that, but also Weyland jumping back in suprise and an outburst by Elizabeth Shaw and then she gets hit. The Shakespeare phrase is what this is about "the lady she doth protest too much, methinks" In other words, why all those distractions right at that moment...[u]because if you watch it again now with what I told you, you will see it clearly[/u]. If you don't, post back man cause I'd love to be wrong.

@Dan321 questions. 1} if thats the granddaddy of face huggers, and the ship that crashed on LV 426 was 2000 years before, then how did that space jockey become infected with an alien that apears to only come from a virus infected human having sex with another uninfected human? 2} Assuming that the black goo is both a evolver and de-evolver of DNA {as shown in the beginning}, and not something whos purpose is to create Aliens { we know this becuase you either disentegrate, or your head explodes}. Then why the aleborate mural showing the creation of the alien species if it can only come from a unfertalized Egg, and not directly from anything in the tomb? You really do make some very valid points in your post, and it is well written.

This is great. Seriously. Very very well thought out. I am curious if Lindelof & Co thought it through on this level, or whether you are thinking like them. In otherwords, are they over or under-thinking this. Very cool brother.

hi Dan OK I see what it is your talking about but I must say that I cant agree with you as when he wakes up he leans over to cough he then looks at Weyland and gets up starts to walk towards them and then falls to his knees with a thud and a grunt that says to me its not a bow you don't bow by cracking you knees on the floor and grunting with it, so I'm sorry but that I'm not buying it but the rest is fine and enjoying what you are saying

@schwartzcoff hi what Dan is saying is that the alien on lv426 is the finished produce and the other alien is a fluke it wasn't meant to be and that it only shares DNA with its cousin. but saying that i have my own theory that this is the beginning and will evolve later to the alien we all know, its evolution. DNA is a platform on which to program what it is you want to make think of them as building blocks and instead of building say a house yourself you tell a machine to do it for you, now change this into a biological block (a cell) now the cell is told what to do to multiply and to keep multiplying till it as finished the job in hand, a sperm cell has a set of instructions but only half the egg has the other half separate they are both useless but together they have a complete set of instructions, now ok ok i know we all know this ;) now if you know what you are doing and can manipulate DNA just as the Engineers do and in the film prove it at the beginning buy sacrificing himself so his DNA can start from scratch to create us. they first design what it is they want how it should look then come up with a way to do it so they create us then design the contagion that will merge with its hosts DNA much like a sperm cell and the egg and creates a new life form now has always the first few will never be stable and this is where evolution comes in, the same as we adapt to our surrounding it will do the same and so the image in the wall is what they wanted not what they did. not facts just how i see things.

Hey, Good critical thinking. I really like a lot of the thoughts, but the quote "every king has its reign, and then he dies," is not really related to what you are talking about. I think you are extrapolating a little too far. Charlize Theron says it to her father, Weyland, to try and make him understand that he can't live forever. She is saying that he should not have come millions of miles away in a space ship, hoping to find aliens, for the sole purpose of allowing him to live longer. He is near death, and he came to the planet for that reason. He is a rich, powerful man, with the one of the most, if not the most, successful companies in the alien movie universe. Like a king... Definitely the metaphor they were going for. I really think you are stretching wayyy too far by saying he came there to retire the space jockey species.

@schwartzcoff - I mentioned it gets wordy if you delve, but here's to it. I'll answer #1 here and #2 in another post. On question #1 - the supposition "if thats the granddaddy of face huggers..." a) It is not known to be literally the granddaddy of the facehuggers in the movie Alien, inversely it also can't be eliminated as such. Why is that? b) Because the Xenomorph will eventually show up in any infected population. How do we know that? c) Because the Xenomorph progression from black goo virus (real viruses are just DNA or RNA) to full phenotype (xenomorph) appears on the mural wall that David read so intently AND more importantly we watched a lifecycle in Prometheus transition from black goo viral DNA strand to full phenotype. d) So because it is the established and repeatable progression of the xenomorph, we can't know if the outbreak in the movie Alien is directly related to our Xenomorph OR a separate outbreak with the same result. Is there anything else? c) Oh, sure! We haven't even seen what happens if a female human with a viable human egg gets infected with the black goo virus and fertilized by a human sperm. Assuming the mother survived long enough, one would infer we would get a xenotype with single egg cell phenotype characteristics instead of sperm. I, however, digress...so d) We only know that in the movie, Alien, the spermatozoa egg cases were already laid inside the ship. Meaning a xenomorph was born: perhaps originating from a spermatozoa case itself or perhaps originating from infected single sex cell meiosis. On question #1, the other supposition "how did that space jockey become infected with an alien that [i][u]appears to only come from a virus infected human having sex with another uninfected human[/u][/i]?" Answer: a) If you meant the last space Jockey in Prometheus, he's human too. b) If you meant THE space jockey, from the movie Alien, once the black goo virus successfully transitions from virus (genotype) to multicelled organism (phenotype) (as noted earlier), it, the adult Xenotype, can produce its own spermatozoa egg cases as seen in the movies Alien and Aliens, etc. c) If you meant the space jockey whose head explodes in the Prometheus 'examination room', he caught the black goo virus - not sexually transmitted version. d) Please clarify, if I didn't quite get your question as there's a lot of infected space jockey's out there.

@schwartzcoff - On your Question #2 You asked: Let's break your question down: Question #2 - supposition 1: "Assuming that the black goo is both a evolver and de-evolver of DNA {as shown in the beginning}, and not something whose purpose is to create Aliens { we know this becuase you either disentegrate, or your head explodes}" Answer: 1) The black goo used in the beginning reflects with metallic gold and other colors and hence is different in appearance than the black goo found in the urn room, which when David looks at it carefully, appears to have a matrix web in it. 2) When ingested, the black goo in the beginning of the film parses the subjects DNA essentially disintegrating the subject in a few seconds. (Presumably to beget eventual multicelluar animal life as displayed on screen in the sequence.) When ingested or absorbed directly, the black goo in the urn room approximately 16 hours later begins to affect change on the subject (Charlie), possibly leading to violent disoriented behavior (Fifield), and possibly leading to imminent cranial explosive pressure (nameless space jockey in lab). So 3) With different appearance and effect, I infer these are very probably two different substances that bare a resemblance, aka black gooiness, because they are of the same base bio"techno"logy. Much like the alloy bronze and the alloy steel bare a strong resemblance to each other's physical characteristics, but are different and have different qualities. So why the first goo? 4) Space Jockey's are Gardeners not Engineers. They [u][b]grow[/b][/u] via DNA/RNA their "technology" they don't construct it like earth humans do (that's the big difference.) How do we know this? 5) From the stromatolite grown space jockey building structure we see in Prometheus to those structures complete inner coating with "clear bio-algae" or "clear goo" (remember on David's finger on the control panel? It isn't all black goo you know. Also, the biologist may have been right - those streams on the floor may have been water, but may also have contained waste products being flushed through the build's flora...hence all that water.) Even the Gardeners' atmosphere and even control panels were bio"techno"logy. Want a more explicit example? 6) Okay for example, that is how David reads about how to use the cuneiform carved glyphs. - step1: swipe your finger on the bottom hieroglyph line to collect the green algae. Now you can use that finger to step 2: activate glyphs in sequence. The building appear stromatolite grown (oldest living things on earth - google it) from the look Even their ships with ribs, suits, and weapons (the xenomorph) are clearly organic in origin, but I digress. So why the first goo? 7) Because the Gardeners culture is an alien one to ours. Want to understand it? Then understand this 8) all their "technology" is living and just like they are 9) all of their "stuff" is grown from DNA (and possibly RNA) just like they are (and we are). [u]So all their grown technology are actually family relatives.[/u]. Think about that; They are related to their organic ships that have visible rib sections, their organic suits, their buildings, the control panel algae (or goo) and all the rest of it/them. To their entire "tool kit". 10) they don't craft techno-logy only bio-logy. For example, if only because non-grown "technology" is alien to them, they would never create a non-DNA based intelligence, like David. (and they might have good reasons for this.) But this isn't the most important part. So what is the most important part? 11) That unlike us, they don't distinguish themselves from their "tool kit". Put another way, they are in their tool kit. So what? 12) So they use themselves to seed a world with DNA (via the first goo you asked about). (We don't know the circumstances around the that starting sequence of Prometheus where the Gardener takes drinks the goo. Perhaps seeding a world with your DNA is a great honor. Perhaps it was a punishment. We don't know the reasoning in that instance.) What is clear though is that Gardeners don't separate themselves from the Garden quite like we do. On the second supposition of question #2 "Then why the aleborate mural showing the creation of the alien species if it can only come from a unfertalized Egg, and not directly from anything in the tomb?" Answer: I think I answered this above. Let me know on questions and thanks! Dan

@flacnvinyl - Glad you're enjoying it! The movie is a treasure trove of what is classically called 'hard science fiction'; I suspect from reading these boards that a lot of viewers (even those that love it) are missing a lot of the great stuff.

@Darrell41653 - As you wish Darrell, I will keep it coming if you or someone asks the right questions...and there are no wrong questions. Glad you're enjoying it.

@Draconis- Hey, you wrote: "I see what it is your talking about but I must say that I cant agree with you as when he wakes up he leans over to cough he then looks at Weyland and gets up starts to walk towards them and then falls to his knees with a thud and a grunt that says to me its not a bow you don't bow by cracking you knees on the floor and grunting with it, so I'm sorry but that I'm not buying it but the rest is fine and enjoying what you are saying" Hey Draconis, I'll just note - I don't want you to buy it. I don't want you to believe it. And I totally see what you're saying, I saw that too. What I am saying is, don't believe me - I wouldn't believe me, just watch it again now that you know OR don't watch it again. Remember, memory is more about what you were thinking when you laid down the memory than it is about what you actually observed. This is because when you lay down a memory it is a chain of neural connections and often consists of strengthening existing neural connection bundles. Hence memory is literally more about what you were thinking (which existing bundles you were accessing as relevant) when you laid down the memory. Hence looking at your memory, you literally can't observe what I'm saying. The only option I know of is to observe the event again (which you can because its a movie - too cool.) So don't believe me. I really don't want to believe me. (PS what I really want is for you to see what I missed and tell me about it which is totally and completely up to you of course!)

@Dan321 ok, so what happened to the gardeners 2000 years ago? Also, why create us then destroy us (or attempt to)? Was David lying about where the ship was headed? There have been recent posts saying that the derelict ship in "Alien" was MUCH older than the "weapon installation" in "Prometheus" and that the chestbursters and eggs in that craft were "natural" xenomorphs as opposed to "engineered" xenomorphs in the weapon installation. Thanks!

Fantastic. I love the way a great movie really gets people thinking. Great ideas and knowledge being thrown out there. For some reason though I'm having trouble with the evolution of the creature into an egg laying "queen". I can't get those puzzle pieces to fit right. I'm also thinking about the initial hologram recording of the "engineers" running into the room and one loosing his head. Where they simply running to a room they couldseall off? One other point has me thinking. If these time linesomewhatat overlap (Alien and Prometheus) it makes me think about your explanation for the evolution of the face hugger. If it is linked the the sperm, then how did the face hugger in alien come about unless there is a direct link between the two ships or locations in the movies. That or i guesaccidentallyly infected Engineers where having sex with the same horrible results. Wow, put that on a poster for pro black goo infecteabstinencece.

Oh, I got another question. Make this relevent to the myth of Prometheus, please. What are the gardeners giving us that upsets whomever made them? Was it at the beginning? Giving us life by sacrificing itself? Then the "gods" of the gardeners said, Hell No! Get your asses back to earth and undo that so that's why they would destroy us? (I get the feeling we don't really mean all that much to them though (to argue my own point). I think it was significant that David said, How disappointing it would be to you if your makers say they made you because they could. Is that the answer? They only made us because they could? Or did they not even make us, were they compelled by who made them to make us? Is it (and I shudder at throwing out the religion card) Like when the "angels" became jealous of "man" becuase we got souls and we were elevated to their original position of right hand of the creator? Or is that David's motive, he hates us because we have souls etc etc) Back to my original point about the Prometheus myth, was it David stealing the goo? Did he get his head ripped off for the breach in containing the WMD? Is that the Prometheus connection? (It bothers me that the gardener looked at him so lovingly before ripping his head off. Even if he is not "alive" its still harsh the way it goes from complete love to contempt so quickly.)

@Dan321; One problem, Shaw cannot make eggs she is barren. Also the SJ doesn't bow, he is weak from the hypersleep just like the humans were.

I watched it again and I think I am catching on... albeit slowly. I can't even sleep my brain is in hyperdrive. There are soooo many good theories but This thread is the one i'm gonna keep watching for more answers m/ m/

"All this has happened before and shall happen again" The million year old tech and eggs in the first Alien could be the first go around with this. Truly, any thing you saw in this film has "alien's DNA" in it. Everything in here shares the same DNA, engineer, humans, cuddles, and Deacon. Prometheus connection--there is no greater fire that burns brighter in the universe than that of life. The fire itself is the primoridal DNA/goo. Svanya--This is my ignorance which may lead this question is it stated that Shaw is "barren" as cannot have children or that she is eggless, i.e. no ovaries? One does not conotate the other under certain conditions. Structual issues with the female organs, fallopian tubes or incompetent uterus may beget "barren" but not "eggless".

@Recka73, Love your questions. Okay, let's do this. I'll do the second part of your question in a separate reply to this discussion. On question #1 - quite intuitive of you that you followed 1) What happened to the gardeners 2000 years ago? immediately with 2) Why create us and then destroy us (or attempt to) ? Want me to tell your or show you? Of course, both! Answer: 1) This is what happened 2000 years ago: [img]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Republic_Empire_map.gif[/img] [img]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif[/img] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif]Your text to link here...[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Republic_Empire_map.gif]Your text to link here...[/url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Republic_Empire_map.gif 2000 years ago we pass the tipping point into a stage of super organization, information sharing, and population growth. So what? 2) Humans are only really, really dangerous when they are organized into larger group. For most of our history, we've been hunting and gathering in low density, yet the Gardeners per the story visit us and tell us things. From written history, we know we formed some small early dense populations yet the Gardeners visit us there too and they tell us things, such as along the egyption nile. Organizationally speaking, 2000 years ago we continued our steady ascent to the current age, but even more rapidly until our knowledge grew exponentially on the logarithmic scale (aka "through the roof".) We started evolving larger and larger organizational structures. (FYI - this is how you get out of a garden of eden, aka a green planet, and the Gardeners know the pattern.) We called these early structures empires. All empires come and go, but the that's because we're evolving organizational structures until we find one that works and keeps growing, and growing, and....well, you get the picture. But wait, why create us then destroy us? 3) The Gardeners just provided the parsed raw DNA. We evolved here like everything else, that's how a garden planet works and probably how all the Gardeners tend their Garden planets. The Gardeners didn't manipulate earth to produce us specifically. So imagine their reaction when they see the universe has coughed up them...again. The odds are astronomical, but incidentally we're literally working on an astronomical scale (billions of years, untold number of garden planets started). For example, just speaking of probability, the odds of anything no matter how rare given infinity will happen. The Gardeners don't have infinity. Imagine how it might get their attention beyond any other life form that evolved on all these different worlds, when they see their own crop up again. So what? 4) So they didn't manipulate to create us. We were the same kind of surprise as all the other evolving fauna (possibly flora) that grew (evolved) on any and all their garden planets. Of course, sometimes life on a planet dies out and sometimes the Gardeners wipe it out. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 5) I'd like to say logic, but if you don't like that answer then because David read it in the cuneiform and said it in the movie in reference to the Gardeners stockpile of virus, "Sometimes they have to destroy in order to create." (Sometimes I wonder, Did we all watch the same movie?...but I digress.) So here's the thing. 6) Gardeners know sometimes they have to kill a garden. Why? Because its contents threaten to spread to all the other garden planets and to Gardeners, garden planets have their own kind of manifest destiny. So Gardeners don't mess with Gardens unless it is a critical situation. They let the Garden die out if that's its destiny and then they start again once the flora re cooperates. So when do they act? 7) When a garden threatens to create a virulent species that will begin to affect all the other gardens. That is they leave their planet and start seeding others themselves. [u]You might notice that ability is the domain of the Gardeners only and remember all the existing garden literally descend from seeded Gardener DNA strands[/u], aka don't be like the God (which we can discuss if you want to ask why the Gardeners were here in person, but perhaps you get it already.) So what's the "herbicide" for killing a garden. 8) The virus black goo that infects a species and then via meiosis merges with it sexually to become the Xenomorph version. Since all gardens species are made of the same base DNA - it is a wide spectrum 'herbicide', better called a phylumcide (from phylum). Hence they have a recipe to getting rid of species that will jump their garden fence and sort of like the gods/Gardeners start to invade planets on their own, except not to seed and allow them to develop their own manifest destiny through evolution, rather these species will simply commandeer the garden planets and co-opt them. So what's the difference with us, why not kill us off us, why visit us? 9) The difference is, this time the species to be killed of is them, that is to say us. We are them; they are us. How surprised were we that they were genetically human? Now, can you imagine how surprised they were their species cropped up (evolved again) when the originally detected us? (they're humans too after all.) So do they wipe us who are identical to them out? Also, you might ask, did this happen before? 10) Remember the title, Prometheus? Prometheus was a Titan. The Titans and namely Chronos, is the Titan who sired/gave rise to the gods, but Chronos knew his children would one day conquer him. So Chronos, not being all bad, ate his children when they were born and they slept in stasis in his stomach. This is until one of the gods, Zeus/Jupiter, figured it out and he slew Chronos and freed all his sleeping brothers and sisters, Hera, etc, and unlike the Titans, the Gods let their siblings and childeren manifest their own destinies...or did they? Perhaps the Gardeners are familiar with the rotation of rulership? (Besides, how do you think Chronos really knew his childeren would one day rise up and defeat him - cause he was once a kid too.) So here the dilemma: 11) The Gardeners know what happens when a garden coughs up the Gardener/Engineer/Space Jockey/Human/God/Titan species because they went through it themselves, as did the Titans before them. So do they kill us? What if Chronos had killed them instead of keeping them alive and asleep in his stomach? Could they, Gardeners, ever have come to be? Besides we're Gardeners not Titans - all life forms including us are part of the same "toolkit". And beside, maybe the earth humans are the next generation to replace the Gardeners? Maybe this is the natural order? So what do Gardeners do? 12) We know from the story, they visited Earth directly and spent time with earth humans. Perhaps guiding us - at least telling us stories we'd understand in way way we'd understand them. Like about Titans and how Gods are different that Titans. Clearly, they said "Do not forget these stories; they are very important" because if we forget the stories, we've forgotten our warning. So we passed them down orally until we could write and then we wrote tablets and scrolls and book. Stories that wound up say in the old testament, like the story of the garden of eden. [u] They also left us lots of warning, if you eat of the tree of knowledge and leave your garden of eden, aka planet, you're on your own kid.[/u] That was very sporting of them, no? So its really up to us...what? Unlucky #13) It is up to us whether to leave our garden, aka planet, if we do, they've left us one address and it leads to a species killing agent repository. If we go there and get ourselves infected, did they kill us or did we kill us? If we go there and don't get killed, then perhaps we ARE they next replacement, AND they've given us the weapon we need to defeat them. (Very sporting; Very egalitarian if you ask me, though you didn't...I digress.) So 14) Evolution coughed earth humans up, like it coughed up Gardeners before us, and Titans before them. It appears the Gardeners are going to stand by their understanding of the immutable laws of biology. If we are the replacement species, so be it. If we're not, so be it. They appear that they wouldn't be so egotistical to assume they know the answer either. But there is a problem? Oh really, what's that? 15) David. Unlike the Titans, unlike the Gardeners, unlike Earthings, David isn't the Gardener/Engineer/Space Jockey/Human/God/Titan species is he? He is made in its image which by the way concerns David because he doesn't think that's hopeful (He literally says, I hope I'm not too close [to humans].) So what's a Gardener gonna do when evolution coughs up a possible successor generation of Gardener/Engineer/Space Jockey/Human/God/Titans, but with potential replacement of the species as a whole, a non DNA form of intelligence, David? That's a game changer. How do you know David is a game changer? 16) David by the way is immune to black goo - the deadly total garden killing weapon of the Gardeners - it kills all species grown of DNA, but David isn't of DNA. He can even hold it on his finger and say "Big things have small beginnings" by which he means the goo (having read the cuneiform) and he means himself. In a metaphorical sense, he's looking at the goo and the goo (metaphorically) is looking right back at him. Remember "humanity is just a bridge". "Every king has his reign and then he dies" 17) So you want to know about David because his kind is the new king, and with him end the reign of the Gardeners, but wait the Gardeners are Human are Gods are Titans are Us. So when the last space jockey beats Weyland over the head with a piece of David he just ripped off, in way he is saying he may be saying "wake up; you're building your/our replacement (remember they are us and we all represent DNA life unlike David) and perhaps he's dismayed that Weyland is already being lead by the nose by it/them/David" next I'll answer your other question. Want to know more about David?

@Recka73, okay, let's do question#2 "There have been recent posts saying that the derelict ship in "Alien" was MUCH older than the "weapon installation" in "Prometheus" and that the chestbursters and eggs in that craft were "natural" xenomorphs as opposed to "engineered" xenomorphs in the weapon installation." 1) I'd offer the xenomorphs always originate from the virus like black goo. They go through a cycle of meiosis with the target species you want to wipe out to become a full bodied xenomorph (see earlier post on this). After that point, they can reproduced in accordance with the genetic instructions they pick up from the target species. So the "natural xenomorphs" and the "engineered xenomorphs" are exactly the same. Now you've seen how they go from viral (DNA/RNA form which is what a virus is, a strand of DNA or RNA) via meiosis to a "full bodied" xenomorph phenotype, but they require a "partner" species to do this naturally. Once that xenomorph is born of the virus plus a host species, it will "continue naturally" according to the instruction set of the DNA of the target creature it acquired - hence it goes on to lay spermatozoa eggs if that's what it acquires from the target species. Okay, but what about the age? 2) Clearly this is very speculative, but I'd offer the original ship, in the movie Alien, may be so old because it is a Gardner ship from when they ascended to take over from the Titans. It may be the black goo virus was used against the Gardeners by the Titans - hence the ancient Gardener ship and xenomorph infestation was a casualty. If this is the case, we would infer the Gardeners did manage to overcome the Titans (which would explain our myths about Chronos (and Prometheus) and the Gods of Olympus, etc., since these would be the myths/stories the Gardeners explained to us when they came in our distant past and tried to influence us). Why do you think the Titans are invovled? 3) Clearly this is very speculative, because Prometheus was the Titan that gave man fire to spite the Gods/Gardeners, aka an inter generational family fight since we're all one DNA/one species. Remember, we get this story from the Gardners and we call it a myth. So we're told Prometheus was punished horribly forever for his crime of giving us fire. So clearly the Gardeners are concerned about that and they tell us about it. So what's wrong with fire? 4) Well, all gardner "tools" are grown out of the same DNA/RNA that they themselves are. Fire is an inanimate tool and Per Weyland at the TED Prometheus video - google it), "Fire is our first real tool." So perhaps Prometheus corrupted us and set us on our different path of technology which lead to David, who will eventually become not only the new king species, but a new order of non DNA life all together. Hope that helps - let me know on questions or better clarifications or corrections! Dan

@Recka73, on your last question with all sorts of entities, etc. 1) I'd offer I suspect the one thing that makes this science fiction story different is that there is no "other", there is only "us". A Gardener is an Engineer which is a Space Jockey which is a Human which is a God which is a Titan which is Us. Why? 2) I'm sure Scott knows this. All the old myths say the same thing, "God made man in his image". (Though some of the very old ones I'm told actually say "God made man as his slave" but we won't go there because that's actual archaeology not necessarily in this movie.) So we are created "from the dust", but also "in the image of god". How is are those two things not a paradox? Our DNA evolved naturally into the rare by clearly workable instance of the Gardener/Engineer/Space Jockey/Human/God/Titan DNA sequence. so 3) I'd offer unless you have some observations to give rise to them, give up your thoughts of "other" brother because it is all "us". Stick to the observations and what works with all the observable story facts. That's my advice and please feel free to ignore it, but I think its more fun to stick with it. Imagine wildly, but always taking into account what you observe as pick points...sleuthing.

@Svanya, you wrote "One problem, Shaw cannot make eggs she is barren." On the supposition #1 that Shaw cannot make eggs because she is infertile 1) Actually, there are all forms of infertility. I know personally. It is incredibly rare to have no eggs at all. Infertility generally is for other reasons. Such as a physical issue or chromosomal abnormalities. I'd offer with all probability Shaw has eggs, yet is still infertile. If it makes it easier, the black goo viral infected spermatozoa cells are designed to merge with any species - perhaps working with Shaw's chromosomal egg issue or physical issue is no problem for it. On the supposition #2 that the space jockey doesn't bow, he is weak from the hypersleep just like the humans were. 2) Please see that this exact supposition was answered on an earlier set of posts on this thread. Best, Dan

@Nyawka - I am definitely down with everything you wrote/deduced. Finally, at last, my brother from another mother, Nyawka. If you're up for it, let me know here if you'd like to chat on the movie. I'd enjoy discussing with another person who can crack this puppy. Best and thanks, Dan

I apologize for my stupid post. I'll just keep reading.

Dan Baby! You’re knocking it out the park! Got to re-watch the kneel part near the end, but man I’m feeling everything you are saying. Hard Sci-Fi at its best, but let’s move to other things like how 1) Yutani after finding out that Weyland and his daughter are dead make a bid for a hostile takeover of Weyland and how because of the massive failure of the “Prometheus Project” Weyland stock crashes and Yutani takes over. Leading to… 2) Do you think all of the events of the “Prometheus Event “were recorded like the hologram that told of how that particular installation was infected? 3) David said there were other ships. So wouldn’t that mean more installations? If so wouldn’t that mean Shaw and David run into more Gardeners? 4) The possibility of Warring factions within the Gardeners. I think you touch on this earlier, but there are most definitely two types of Gardeners. What if there was a rift (hear me out) within the gardeners, Hawks vs. Doves. At the beginning of the movie the gardener who sacrifices himself looks like us and is dropped off by disc shape ship and is placed on a planet to create. Then we have this warrior type gardener (looks very different) that is designed to destroy (the ships they operate are very different.) We don’t exactly know the politics of the gardeners. And we know all species with any intelligence have different views on life, power, and faith. What do think Scott is implying by showing us to different gardeners? I would love to hear you speak on the repercussions like my first question, because I believe Scott has established a hell of a road map that is tying Prometheus to the whole franchise more than people think. If you have some words on that I would like to hear them. Be easy.

@MobiusStrip, Thanks for your earlier post! There is nothing stupid in your post not in the least. I hope you didn't get this impression because I haven't replied. The challenge is one part of your question requires I type a whole lot. So let me condense as much an answer as I can and do me a favor friend, please post the most wild or mild thoughts you have about the movie that you can ground in observation of the movies story. I will enjoy reading them and chatting. I'll post in parts. Supposition #1 puzzle pieces of the egg laying "queen" [from black goo] Life cycle step by step from black ooz virus to xenomorph queen/king 1) black ooz virus 2) black ooz virus introduced into host 3) host transmits the disease 4a) dead end if host dies and/or all other infected recipients dies 4b) host transmits disease through single cell meiosis in our case, though in theory in whatever manner the host species reproduces, such as by mitosis, aka cloning. (used by many organisms here on earth.) 5) if by single cell meiosis, a facehugger, aka meiosis sex cell (with 1/2 genome) xeno is created. 6) xeno facehugger "mates" with another host same species, or another speices like a human facehugger to a dog as in Alien 3. 7) mating results in multicell meiosis, aka facehugger that treats the target host as an egg. 8) Full Xeno is born and in theory at whatever size the host can support. 9) In theory (as we never saw this but infer it from Aliens), a xeno given no queen can grow into a "queen", though so far technically I infer its eggs actually contain xeno virus altered inherited characteristics based on spermatozoa (see post #1 on this thread), so you might call it a "king".

@MobiusStrip, Supposition #2, the initial hologram recording of the "engineers" running into the room and one loosing his head. Were they simply running to a room they could seal off? Answer: That was my take on it as well, but let's walk through this and compare mental notes. NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS HIGHLY SPECULATIVE, but grounded in what I could observe. 1) We know the head was infected, but we don't know about the body because the head was in the room with the Urns, but he was probably already infected and about to die. How do you know that? 2) The worms in the room appeared unaffected by the ooz. If the ooz was loose to infect the head, one might surmise the worms would have been impacted as well. So it appears more likely the headless engineer was already infected when he ran to the room because we know the head was per the explosion scene in the Prometheus lab. So what? 3) Perhaps the infected Gardener was chasing the other Gardeners like Fifield did when he got infected and came back to the Prometheus OR perhaps we wanted to contain himself, but that seems less likely. Why? 4) IMPORTANT: Because pretty clearly the headless Gardener didn't set the door to close while running and on his own head did he? [u]It had to be somebody or something else.[/u] Who or what was it? 5) It could have been the first Gardeners running in front of the headless one except they weren't in the urn room when the door opened and we never saw them leave on the holographic recording, but we know something else. What's that? 6) Somebody or something turned on the holographic recording. Who was that? 7) David. David may have done so inadvertently or purposefully, but after David activates the first control panel, the holograms start and David stands still taking it in in what a human would deem amazement. So I'd vote inadvertent, but there's something else. What's that? 8 ) We don't know what triggers the urns. If the presence of the Gardener's head and the other Gardeners who go in, but are not seen going out, doesn't trigger the urns, then what does? 9) It appears to be the team from Prometheus's breath falling over the urn, but that's not a definitive lock. David then notes the activity on top of the urn (and naturally says nothing). Why might we think this? 10) Because carbon dioxide breath is actually a common triggers in nature. For example, if you approach a bee hive and stand close by and hold your breath, they won't attack, but the moment you breath your carbon dioxide breath over hive, they will swarm out (google it for video). Mosquitoes also track by carbon dioxide. Gardener's do grow everything so that might be how the writer's decided to trigger the urns, but what about the Gardeners who ran in there (in the hologram)? 11) Note, those Gardeners were wearing their helmets which leads us to the other reason it might be breath. Which is? 12) Our writers purposefully had our Prometheus team take off their helmets. It is a colorful character element to demonstrate Charlie's adventurous to foolhardy nature, but this would put it into the category of necessary plot element and justify the screen time for taking off helmets. But wait Fifield and Milburn were wearing their helmets in the urn room in their "death scene"? 13) True, but by then the goo was out and the worms who were virtually transformed into Xeno worms got them. So who cares? 14) Remember, this stromatolite building, with its total coating of bio'tech'logy ooz coating and liquid running down every hall has an atmosphere. So what? 15) The Gardeners were wearing their helmets when they ran into the urn room...even the infected Gardener. As were all the dead Gardener bodies suits found by Fifield and Milburn. Maybe it was because they loved their helmets? So what? 16) The what is the Gardeners grow everything. So what? 17) So their suits, the building, the ooz on the walls is all DNA/RNA based. So what? 18 ) None of it gets sick or even infected on exposure to the black ooz virus - only the Gardeners/humans/titans/space jockeys/engineers get sick from touch exposure to the black ooz virus. Why is that? 19) From observation, it has to be ingested. What about Fifield? 20) His head landed face down forcibly in a puddle black ooz after his vizor after the xeno worm's acid blood ate through it. So what? 21) So then we know that the Gardeners who wore their suits in the room weren't concerned about catching it by touch. So what? 22) So they were probably wearing it to hide their carbon dioxide concentrated in their breath and they were running to the room either to stay ahead of the already infected and soon-to-be-decapitated Gardener OR because the facility was already triggered and going into auto lock down. What facility? 23) The whole building was coated with in bio-techo-logy ooz as demonstrated by David and the interfaces and the holograms. How are the holograms involved? 24) What did you think was projecting the wire trace lines that made up the holograms all over the facility, magic? Ok, so what? 25) So the deader than dead looking "dome rock" is actually alive, meaning fully operational - just like their ship. It appears to be a grown stromatolite, and any where you like it processes atmosphere, can project holograms, has probably waste water running through it constantly and has control panels. Um, okay, maybe, but so what? 26) So this is pure conjecture, but maybe the gardeners were running to the room before the installation closed the door, but I don't think so because all the Gardeners (including the one that lost its head) were being chased by someone. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 27) When the hologram first starts, all the Gardeners run past quickly looking forward and then ONLY the last Gardener (who eventually loses his head) looks back over his shoulder to see if anyone is behind him. Only the last Gardener of the group checked behind himself, aka over his should. This indicates there's someone, perhaps even another group, he suspects behind him that might explain why they're all running and this tells us the Gardeners we saw were a group and somethign more. What's that? 28 ) Well, first let's note that the Gardener who lost his head, definitely had the virus already. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 29) That last Gardener of the group who lost his head, crumpled to the floor prior to the doorway and losing his head. That's why he was laid out on the floor to get his head chopped off in the first place. He clearly didn't trip, his knees appear to buckle. So he was definitely already infected. Okay so what? 30) So it was a group of Gardeners are all running to the isolation/urn room being chased by someone else (possibly a group). What's more it appears the group was so concerned that they starting shutting the door before the last one could get it. So what? 31) So they were trying to keep someone out of the room, but they failed. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 32) Because they left the room and died. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 33) Because Fifield and the Biologist find their dead bodies piled up in the hallway. How do you know they are the same group? 34) You mean aside from the fact that they are a group of fully outfitted/helmeted Engineers, just like the running hologram Gardeners group were all fully outfitted/helmeted? Yes, too flimsy, they could wear those helmets all the time, right? 35) The control room shows the hologram of the Engineers not wearing their helmets. That's true, but I need more proof! 35) You mean aside from the fact that our headless Engineer's head exploded in the lab and Fifield notes very loudly (in case the audience missed seeing the what was clearly in scene) that the group of helmeted Engineers all have their heads exploded as well? So what, it could be another group of infected engineers all wearing full protective suits and helmets inside - I need more proof! 36) Glad you persisted; you know that big pile of bodies? We know the virus appears to be spread only through ingestion (see above). These Gardeners knew about the black ooz virus. They knew not to eat it. So unless you think one infected Gardener can kill all the rest (and we didn't see a hologram of any of that fighting), we can see how one Gardener might get sick, but ALL OF THEM? It is almost like “someone” put it in their drinking water or food. Interesting, but so what? 37) So in addition to the look over the shoulder indicating another “someone” else, we have a group of 'poisoned by virus' Gardeners all at once which might also indicate another “someone”. It could have been mass suicide, but that wouldn’t explain their being chased. Okay, so what? 38 ) Well, that means they all ran into the urn room together as a group. So what? 39) We find them all, except the headless dead one, in the hallway. So what? 40) Well, it is speculation, but I’d speculate it might indicate that they were force marched down the hallway. Oh, come on, why? 41) Because the headless Gardener was left in the door way. Please, so what? 42) The headless Gardener couldn't move on his own, he was dead, but the sick Gardeners could. Ya, so what? 43) We infer there was another “someone” or group (as noted above). Our hologram group of Gardeners (including the headless one) may (or may not) know at this point that they are sick, but they know they're being chased. (Just a note: they could be hiding, but it looked like a close pursuit to me based on their full out stride and no attempt to move quietly.) So they go into the urn room with the Prometheus, the titan, mural. Wait? What mural to Prometheus? 44) That urn room mural depicted Prometheus and probably his punishment. Why do you say that? 45) Because the Mural on the ceiling displays Prometheus's punishment scene. How do you know it is Prometheus? 46) The ceiling mural shows a man in a roughly stitched shirt/vest, fabric leggings, and likely boot footwear with what speculatively is a nasty twisty slash across his abdomen and the bird beast. So the guy is either an earth human with a bird like beast or titan with a bird like beast. Why don’t you think he’s another Gardener? 47) His clothing is explicitly not grown, rather it is un-alive artifacts manufactured by hand. The style and tech isn’t reminiscent of anything Gardener grown. It is explicitly reminiscent of earth clothes or perhaps another non-gardener human, perhaps like a Titan. Also, I’ve never seen an earth human with what might be a large abdominal scar with a giant bird beast like that one. So call me crazy, but I speculate that the bird beast is there to peck out his Titan liver daily for all eternity leaving that nasty twisty slash on his abdomen. Maybe the slash is just a decorative motif. Have a look: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WaLucCuiKrY/T9GzGQgtpOI/AAAAAAAAIEw/VSgL7DmOVcU/s1600/prometheus+-+begin+mural+08.jpg http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/ethon86/giger_mural1.jpg But since Prometheus, the titan, angered the gods and according to the myth 'helped' humanity by giving humanity fire, and also in some versions created humanity, it would make sense that a mural of a man with a slash on his abdomen next to a clearly bird like beast in a room on a moon pointed to by ancient-earth-star-map-glyphs from all over left by the Engineers would be Prometheus I speculate. Let's get back on track... 48 ) So after being chased, the sick but certainly healthy-enough-to-run-into-the-room Gardeners go into urn room with Prometheus’ mural on the ceiling. Clearly conjecture, but they probably did not go in to admire Prometheus' giant bust. Yet they almost all leave unseen to later be found all together in a tight pile all on one side of a hallway/more or less along one wall, except for the headless one. So what happened? a) Did they all die in the room together? All their infected bodies later to be moved by "someone else" and stashed in the hall way? Wouldn't “they” have also moved the headless Gardener too then? Why leave the headless body and move all the rest? I can’t think of why anyone would move all their dead bodies with exploded heads except the headless one. b) Did they leave the Prometheus room themselves (later) to go hide in a hallway, but with their heads exploding I don't see them dying in a tight pile like that. And would they have left their headless comrade behind? Possibly I guess. c) When I see dead bodies in a tight pile, all on one side of a hallway (which is to say strewn together against one wall) this to me says, crime scene (especially if they were last ‘seen’ alive somewhere else being chased by someone else.) That might also explain the headless body. The still mobile, but sick and soon to be knee buckling group of Gardeners might have been force marched to the hallway under their own remaining power. This might explain leaving the headless guy untouched because he couldn’t be force marched, his body was diseased, and speculatively our Gardeners were weak and dying. 49) I suspect option (c), but that still leaves the biggest question. What's that? 50) How did the headless Gardener get infected? Or more accurately how did the first Gardener get infected of all those dead gardeners in the hall way pile up. Answer: Don't know; didn't see that in the movie and I cannot see any way to derive it. That's disappointing; can't you tell us something? 51) Glad you asked, you know that big pile of bodies? We know the virus appears to be spread only through ingestion (see above). These Gardeners knew about the black ooz virus. They knew not to eat it. So unless you think one infected Gardener can infect all the rest through their suits (and we didn't see a hologram of any of that fighting), we can see how one Gardener might get sick through a mishap, but ALL OF THEM? It is almost like “someone else” or “something else” put it in their drinking water. So 52) Perhaps the last act of those Gardeners in the holograms was to get infected eight hours earlier as a group perhaps by “someone”, have time to put on their helmets, be chased as a group by “someone”, close themselves in the urn Prometheus mural room accidentally killing the last Gardener as he collapses (already sick and buckling) in front of the door, losing his head, before showing up in a group along one wall in the hall way, but at least some perhaps all of them were sick BEFORE they went into the urn room. So what? 53) So maybe the ‘urn room’ wasn’t an ‘urn room’ when they died. Speculation, but maybe it was the Prometheus room (mural and head) or mural room, or green crystal room, but it probably wasn’t full of virus urns when Gardner group went there when the hologram occurred. After all, we know the hologram doesn’t show the last moments and it seems unlikely given their last actions. Why do you say that? 54) First, because we never see the Gardeners leave – the hologram appears to omit this. Second, would a group of Gardeners run full speed into a room full of virus urns if they weren’t sick? Would a group of Gardeners run full speed into a room full of virus urns if they were sick (because isn’t knocking over urns an issue when you’re flailing around in death throws as a group)? If the room was empty of urns, however, this isn’t an issue. Speculatively, this supports the idea that the original function of the room was not to hold the urns at all. I’d offer the urns might have been added afterwards by “someone” else. But why leave the dead body at the door? 55) You got me. Perhaps the Gardeners dies there just to lead us, the audience, during that hologram to infer it was the last moment before we arrived on the scene since the body is still there, but if that’s true Who were they looking at over their shoulder? how did the other Gardeners get out of the room? Hmm, did we see them run into the room? I think we did – maybe not. Maybe “someone” else was already in the room and closed the door on that one Gardener who lost his head? I would mention one last thing. 56) The Gardeners preparing the ship in the control room hologram (with David) don't appear to be in any rush. Maybe that was taken before the "emergence" or maybe they're relaxed because they are the "others". If the prior case, then we know that the last Gardener, who ripped up David, did so with no knowledge of the emergency (since he was already in hyper sleep.) If the latter case, it might explain his bowing and then attacking (as opposed to leading/befriending, etc.). Whew...told you it was too much to type.

@ALL I have several questions but I'll start with this one: Does anyone else find it absurd that the "invitation" leading to LV-233 is a "constellation" of PLANETS? (Not sure if constellation only refers to stars.) I have a very limited understanding of astronomy so being educated to my ignorance in this is welcome. I do not understand how this could be an accurate address to an interstellar point as the planets comprising the "constellation" will be in a constantly changing orientation to one another as they travel along their respective orbits. Also, we know the ancient humans that recorded these depictions of the "invitation" were unable to observe the location, implying that each civilization that recorded it was given the same constellation as an "address." Even from a known origin (Earth), this seems like a terrible means to locate a point in space of an ever-changing group of planets from another planet which is also rotating and orbiting... and not necessarily along the same plane as the "constellation." Additionally [as a safety measure to my possible ignorance, disregard if I am right about them being planets], even if the "address" is of a constellation of STARS, the Isle of Skye cave drawing was from 35,020BCE... the "address" remained unchanged for 10s of thousands of years, would stars not even change observed relationship to one another over a span of 37,000 YEARS due to universal expansion? Was this some subtle hint that the "thesis" was not correct as David mentioned? I think it weak story-telling for the Prometheus crew to have discovered a planet with evidence of another species and direct connections to Earth and humans through sheer luck/coincidence.

@GameOverMan If the planetary alignments changed over time the Crew could just use a program to account for any changes in that particular star or planetary pattern. Even now we have software that will show us which stars and planets were observable in the night sky over Ancient Egypt around 10,000bce making corrections for the changes over vast amounts of time. @Dan321 Thank you so much for your insight! I consider myself a rather intelligent woman but sometimes I invest too much interest in the story rather than the themes and miss key points. This thread is awesome though, Its definitely my "go to" thread for answers. Any thoughts on a Sumerian connection? We the Adamu were created as slaves by the Annunaki who were supposedly very skilled in genetic engineering. There is an intermedairy between Annunaki and Admau, I just can't think of their name who could be represented by the gardeners. The Annunaki, the(enter name of race here) and the Adamu all share the same genetic code. So, it stands to reason, if we were created as slaves and we have already completed our task on earth then maybe it is time to wipe us out. ANd that fits nicely with my idea that they really don't care much for us.

ok so here is my take on the Engineer and Weyland meeting.. of course if given a sequel they can claim what ever take or a new one if they want. why does everyone who i see discussing this just assume that our dear old David even told the engineer what we were told for him to say.... maybe the key is what he said earlier, every child wants to kill his parents. maybe he said kill this man, and he looked at David lovingly because he knew what he "felt", maybe perhaps this is what happend with them in the past, they were created, they found their creators and killed them, only to do what they did before being killed. ie . "Here is my master, he made me to kill/control you, we woke you for this" then BAM. now there was obvious clues leading to the hard evidence of them being on our planet (or at least visiting and interacting), so what if they realized we were evolving to smart (note while the Alien species created though intelligent, has not been show to be "humanly" so homo-superior (?) , so maybe they took off realizing this (again the Jesus theroy they originated around fits in here)and decided to go design a WMD to solve the problem. and also create new life, something goes wrong obviously, and the crew dies, now keep in mind that this might not be on par with Alien, as diff location, but.. maybe same thing with a diff race, predator perhaps (keep in mind this movie does have sequel written all over it, and was written with such thoughts im sure, so more may be explained later, but the engineers could be "new" at this so maybe they didn't expect things to go awry idk, you get my point. so with all this he realized where they are from/who they are, plus he sees them all violent like, im sure he deduced that this was not good for him or his people. maybe even thinking they were the Xenomorphs, its a stretch, but he HAD been under for a long time.. not anything i stand by on that one but its a reasonable grasp.. the worm xenomorphs were white like a Caucasian. but even in the theater while David talked, all i was thinking was , really after all i have seen in this so far is David really concerned about them. this is all im touching on till i get some responses, but i LOVED this movie, and i hope it doesnt go the way of Pandorum and seep out of sight out of mind, and i also hope its not remembered/forgotten for its crucifixion by the un happy people. (plot based irony huh) i think a David/Shaw sequel would be awesome.... and ima go way out left field, but how cool would it be if somehow the engineers make David "real", only to have him impregnated and sent off to become the ALIEN space jockey... idk crazy, but we could have some crazy good connections to ALIEN if people support this and get us a sequel :)

@GameOverMAN! You're 100% spot on. I don't think the authors knew or cared about astronomical correctness, they just threw in the fascinating starmap concept (which works quite well as a plot device). In the end they had to appeal to the masses, not make a science class. The whole starmap thing is quite incorrect (from an astronomical point of view) and my guess is that the authors suspected it, hence the lack of any further explanation whatsoever: -we found this map, and we came here -how do you connect the two things? -er... the red herring is a fish that lives in cold waters and... bla bla bla...

@Sinestro Just because I didn't write (and anyone else for that matter) it doesn't mean I actually believe David8 told the truth about anything he said from the very beginning. I also made note from the trailers That it was odd that they all looked to David8 to translate saying, "I certainly hope YOU can read this" or something to that effect. They gave David8 a LOT of power by relying SOLELY on him for translation/communication. I was flabbergasted that these 2 "scientists" made these star map discoveries but neither one could read/translate/speak the ancient languages necessary. I also want to go further and say nearly everyone regards David8 with contempt for what he is, even his "father" points out that he is flawed. And yet, despite all this disdain no one minds relying heavily on David8 for basic needs and for important insight. Then even in the end he asks Shaw for help and her first response is WHY would I help YOU? Very interesting.