SPOILER ALERT - Did you catch the Engineer kneeling/Genuflecting?

I apologize for my stupid post. I'll just keep reading.

Dan Baby! You’re knocking it out the park! Got to re-watch the kneel part near the end, but man I’m feeling everything you are saying. Hard Sci-Fi at its best, but let’s move to other things like how 1) Yutani after finding out that Weyland and his daughter are dead make a bid for a hostile takeover of Weyland and how because of the massive failure of the “Prometheus Project” Weyland stock crashes and Yutani takes over. Leading to… 2) Do you think all of the events of the “Prometheus Event “were recorded like the hologram that told of how that particular installation was infected? 3) David said there were other ships. So wouldn’t that mean more installations? If so wouldn’t that mean Shaw and David run into more Gardeners? 4) The possibility of Warring factions within the Gardeners. I think you touch on this earlier, but there are most definitely two types of Gardeners. What if there was a rift (hear me out) within the gardeners, Hawks vs. Doves. At the beginning of the movie the gardener who sacrifices himself looks like us and is dropped off by disc shape ship and is placed on a planet to create. Then we have this warrior type gardener (looks very different) that is designed to destroy (the ships they operate are very different.) We don’t exactly know the politics of the gardeners. And we know all species with any intelligence have different views on life, power, and faith. What do think Scott is implying by showing us to different gardeners? I would love to hear you speak on the repercussions like my first question, because I believe Scott has established a hell of a road map that is tying Prometheus to the whole franchise more than people think. If you have some words on that I would like to hear them. Be easy.

@MobiusStrip, Thanks for your earlier post! There is nothing stupid in your post not in the least. I hope you didn't get this impression because I haven't replied. The challenge is one part of your question requires I type a whole lot. So let me condense as much an answer as I can and do me a favor friend, please post the most wild or mild thoughts you have about the movie that you can ground in observation of the movies story. I will enjoy reading them and chatting. I'll post in parts. Supposition #1 puzzle pieces of the egg laying "queen" [from black goo] Life cycle step by step from black ooz virus to xenomorph queen/king 1) black ooz virus 2) black ooz virus introduced into host 3) host transmits the disease 4a) dead end if host dies and/or all other infected recipients dies 4b) host transmits disease through single cell meiosis in our case, though in theory in whatever manner the host species reproduces, such as by mitosis, aka cloning. (used by many organisms here on earth.) 5) if by single cell meiosis, a facehugger, aka meiosis sex cell (with 1/2 genome) xeno is created. 6) xeno facehugger "mates" with another host same species, or another speices like a human facehugger to a dog as in Alien 3. 7) mating results in multicell meiosis, aka facehugger that treats the target host as an egg. 8) Full Xeno is born and in theory at whatever size the host can support. 9) In theory (as we never saw this but infer it from Aliens), a xeno given no queen can grow into a "queen", though so far technically I infer its eggs actually contain xeno virus altered inherited characteristics based on spermatozoa (see post #1 on this thread), so you might call it a "king".

@MobiusStrip, Supposition #2, the initial hologram recording of the "engineers" running into the room and one loosing his head. Were they simply running to a room they could seal off? Answer: That was my take on it as well, but let's walk through this and compare mental notes. NOTE: THE FOLLOWING IS HIGHLY SPECULATIVE, but grounded in what I could observe. 1) We know the head was infected, but we don't know about the body because the head was in the room with the Urns, but he was probably already infected and about to die. How do you know that? 2) The worms in the room appeared unaffected by the ooz. If the ooz was loose to infect the head, one might surmise the worms would have been impacted as well. So it appears more likely the headless engineer was already infected when he ran to the room because we know the head was per the explosion scene in the Prometheus lab. So what? 3) Perhaps the infected Gardener was chasing the other Gardeners like Fifield did when he got infected and came back to the Prometheus OR perhaps we wanted to contain himself, but that seems less likely. Why? 4) IMPORTANT: Because pretty clearly the headless Gardener didn't set the door to close while running and on his own head did he? [u]It had to be somebody or something else.[/u] Who or what was it? 5) It could have been the first Gardeners running in front of the headless one except they weren't in the urn room when the door opened and we never saw them leave on the holographic recording, but we know something else. What's that? 6) Somebody or something turned on the holographic recording. Who was that? 7) David. David may have done so inadvertently or purposefully, but after David activates the first control panel, the holograms start and David stands still taking it in in what a human would deem amazement. So I'd vote inadvertent, but there's something else. What's that? 8 ) We don't know what triggers the urns. If the presence of the Gardener's head and the other Gardeners who go in, but are not seen going out, doesn't trigger the urns, then what does? 9) It appears to be the team from Prometheus's breath falling over the urn, but that's not a definitive lock. David then notes the activity on top of the urn (and naturally says nothing). Why might we think this? 10) Because carbon dioxide breath is actually a common triggers in nature. For example, if you approach a bee hive and stand close by and hold your breath, they won't attack, but the moment you breath your carbon dioxide breath over hive, they will swarm out (google it for video). Mosquitoes also track by carbon dioxide. Gardener's do grow everything so that might be how the writer's decided to trigger the urns, but what about the Gardeners who ran in there (in the hologram)? 11) Note, those Gardeners were wearing their helmets which leads us to the other reason it might be breath. Which is? 12) Our writers purposefully had our Prometheus team take off their helmets. It is a colorful character element to demonstrate Charlie's adventurous to foolhardy nature, but this would put it into the category of necessary plot element and justify the screen time for taking off helmets. But wait Fifield and Milburn were wearing their helmets in the urn room in their "death scene"? 13) True, but by then the goo was out and the worms who were virtually transformed into Xeno worms got them. So who cares? 14) Remember, this stromatolite building, with its total coating of bio'tech'logy ooz coating and liquid running down every hall has an atmosphere. So what? 15) The Gardeners were wearing their helmets when they ran into the urn room...even the infected Gardener. As were all the dead Gardener bodies suits found by Fifield and Milburn. Maybe it was because they loved their helmets? So what? 16) The what is the Gardeners grow everything. So what? 17) So their suits, the building, the ooz on the walls is all DNA/RNA based. So what? 18 ) None of it gets sick or even infected on exposure to the black ooz virus - only the Gardeners/humans/titans/space jockeys/engineers get sick from touch exposure to the black ooz virus. Why is that? 19) From observation, it has to be ingested. What about Fifield? 20) His head landed face down forcibly in a puddle black ooz after his vizor after the xeno worm's acid blood ate through it. So what? 21) So then we know that the Gardeners who wore their suits in the room weren't concerned about catching it by touch. So what? 22) So they were probably wearing it to hide their carbon dioxide concentrated in their breath and they were running to the room either to stay ahead of the already infected and soon-to-be-decapitated Gardener OR because the facility was already triggered and going into auto lock down. What facility? 23) The whole building was coated with in bio-techo-logy ooz as demonstrated by David and the interfaces and the holograms. How are the holograms involved? 24) What did you think was projecting the wire trace lines that made up the holograms all over the facility, magic? Ok, so what? 25) So the deader than dead looking "dome rock" is actually alive, meaning fully operational - just like their ship. It appears to be a grown stromatolite, and any where you like it processes atmosphere, can project holograms, has probably waste water running through it constantly and has control panels. Um, okay, maybe, but so what? 26) So this is pure conjecture, but maybe the gardeners were running to the room before the installation closed the door, but I don't think so because all the Gardeners (including the one that lost its head) were being chased by someone. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 27) When the hologram first starts, all the Gardeners run past quickly looking forward and then ONLY the last Gardener (who eventually loses his head) looks back over his shoulder to see if anyone is behind him. Only the last Gardener of the group checked behind himself, aka over his should. This indicates there's someone, perhaps even another group, he suspects behind him that might explain why they're all running and this tells us the Gardeners we saw were a group and somethign more. What's that? 28 ) Well, first let's note that the Gardener who lost his head, definitely had the virus already. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 29) That last Gardener of the group who lost his head, crumpled to the floor prior to the doorway and losing his head. That's why he was laid out on the floor to get his head chopped off in the first place. He clearly didn't trip, his knees appear to buckle. So he was definitely already infected. Okay so what? 30) So it was a group of Gardeners are all running to the isolation/urn room being chased by someone else (possibly a group). What's more it appears the group was so concerned that they starting shutting the door before the last one could get it. So what? 31) So they were trying to keep someone out of the room, but they failed. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 32) Because they left the room and died. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT? 33) Because Fifield and the Biologist find their dead bodies piled up in the hallway. How do you know they are the same group? 34) You mean aside from the fact that they are a group of fully outfitted/helmeted Engineers, just like the running hologram Gardeners group were all fully outfitted/helmeted? Yes, too flimsy, they could wear those helmets all the time, right? 35) The control room shows the hologram of the Engineers not wearing their helmets. That's true, but I need more proof! 35) You mean aside from the fact that our headless Engineer's head exploded in the lab and Fifield notes very loudly (in case the audience missed seeing the what was clearly in scene) that the group of helmeted Engineers all have their heads exploded as well? So what, it could be another group of infected engineers all wearing full protective suits and helmets inside - I need more proof! 36) Glad you persisted; you know that big pile of bodies? We know the virus appears to be spread only through ingestion (see above). These Gardeners knew about the black ooz virus. They knew not to eat it. So unless you think one infected Gardener can kill all the rest (and we didn't see a hologram of any of that fighting), we can see how one Gardener might get sick, but ALL OF THEM? It is almost like “someone” put it in their drinking water or food. Interesting, but so what? 37) So in addition to the look over the shoulder indicating another “someone” else, we have a group of 'poisoned by virus' Gardeners all at once which might also indicate another “someone”. It could have been mass suicide, but that wouldn’t explain their being chased. Okay, so what? 38 ) Well, that means they all ran into the urn room together as a group. So what? 39) We find them all, except the headless dead one, in the hallway. So what? 40) Well, it is speculation, but I’d speculate it might indicate that they were force marched down the hallway. Oh, come on, why? 41) Because the headless Gardener was left in the door way. Please, so what? 42) The headless Gardener couldn't move on his own, he was dead, but the sick Gardeners could. Ya, so what? 43) We infer there was another “someone” or group (as noted above). Our hologram group of Gardeners (including the headless one) may (or may not) know at this point that they are sick, but they know they're being chased. (Just a note: they could be hiding, but it looked like a close pursuit to me based on their full out stride and no attempt to move quietly.) So they go into the urn room with the Prometheus, the titan, mural. Wait? What mural to Prometheus? 44) That urn room mural depicted Prometheus and probably his punishment. Why do you say that? 45) Because the Mural on the ceiling displays Prometheus's punishment scene. How do you know it is Prometheus? 46) The ceiling mural shows a man in a roughly stitched shirt/vest, fabric leggings, and likely boot footwear with what speculatively is a nasty twisty slash across his abdomen and the bird beast. So the guy is either an earth human with a bird like beast or titan with a bird like beast. Why don’t you think he’s another Gardener? 47) His clothing is explicitly not grown, rather it is un-alive artifacts manufactured by hand. The style and tech isn’t reminiscent of anything Gardener grown. It is explicitly reminiscent of earth clothes or perhaps another non-gardener human, perhaps like a Titan. Also, I’ve never seen an earth human with what might be a large abdominal scar with a giant bird beast like that one. So call me crazy, but I speculate that the bird beast is there to peck out his Titan liver daily for all eternity leaving that nasty twisty slash on his abdomen. Maybe the slash is just a decorative motif. Have a look: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WaLucCuiKrY/T9GzGQgtpOI/AAAAAAAAIEw/VSgL7DmOVcU/s1600/prometheus+-+begin+mural+08.jpg http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/ethon86/giger_mural1.jpg But since Prometheus, the titan, angered the gods and according to the myth 'helped' humanity by giving humanity fire, and also in some versions created humanity, it would make sense that a mural of a man with a slash on his abdomen next to a clearly bird like beast in a room on a moon pointed to by ancient-earth-star-map-glyphs from all over left by the Engineers would be Prometheus I speculate. Let's get back on track... 48 ) So after being chased, the sick but certainly healthy-enough-to-run-into-the-room Gardeners go into urn room with Prometheus’ mural on the ceiling. Clearly conjecture, but they probably did not go in to admire Prometheus' giant bust. Yet they almost all leave unseen to later be found all together in a tight pile all on one side of a hallway/more or less along one wall, except for the headless one. So what happened? a) Did they all die in the room together? All their infected bodies later to be moved by "someone else" and stashed in the hall way? Wouldn't “they” have also moved the headless Gardener too then? Why leave the headless body and move all the rest? I can’t think of why anyone would move all their dead bodies with exploded heads except the headless one. b) Did they leave the Prometheus room themselves (later) to go hide in a hallway, but with their heads exploding I don't see them dying in a tight pile like that. And would they have left their headless comrade behind? Possibly I guess. c) When I see dead bodies in a tight pile, all on one side of a hallway (which is to say strewn together against one wall) this to me says, crime scene (especially if they were last ‘seen’ alive somewhere else being chased by someone else.) That might also explain the headless body. The still mobile, but sick and soon to be knee buckling group of Gardeners might have been force marched to the hallway under their own remaining power. This might explain leaving the headless guy untouched because he couldn’t be force marched, his body was diseased, and speculatively our Gardeners were weak and dying. 49) I suspect option (c), but that still leaves the biggest question. What's that? 50) How did the headless Gardener get infected? Or more accurately how did the first Gardener get infected of all those dead gardeners in the hall way pile up. Answer: Don't know; didn't see that in the movie and I cannot see any way to derive it. That's disappointing; can't you tell us something? 51) Glad you asked, you know that big pile of bodies? We know the virus appears to be spread only through ingestion (see above). These Gardeners knew about the black ooz virus. They knew not to eat it. So unless you think one infected Gardener can infect all the rest through their suits (and we didn't see a hologram of any of that fighting), we can see how one Gardener might get sick through a mishap, but ALL OF THEM? It is almost like “someone else” or “something else” put it in their drinking water. So 52) Perhaps the last act of those Gardeners in the holograms was to get infected eight hours earlier as a group perhaps by “someone”, have time to put on their helmets, be chased as a group by “someone”, close themselves in the urn Prometheus mural room accidentally killing the last Gardener as he collapses (already sick and buckling) in front of the door, losing his head, before showing up in a group along one wall in the hall way, but at least some perhaps all of them were sick BEFORE they went into the urn room. So what? 53) So maybe the ‘urn room’ wasn’t an ‘urn room’ when they died. Speculation, but maybe it was the Prometheus room (mural and head) or mural room, or green crystal room, but it probably wasn’t full of virus urns when Gardner group went there when the hologram occurred. After all, we know the hologram doesn’t show the last moments and it seems unlikely given their last actions. Why do you say that? 54) First, because we never see the Gardeners leave – the hologram appears to omit this. Second, would a group of Gardeners run full speed into a room full of virus urns if they weren’t sick? Would a group of Gardeners run full speed into a room full of virus urns if they were sick (because isn’t knocking over urns an issue when you’re flailing around in death throws as a group)? If the room was empty of urns, however, this isn’t an issue. Speculatively, this supports the idea that the original function of the room was not to hold the urns at all. I’d offer the urns might have been added afterwards by “someone” else. But why leave the dead body at the door? 55) You got me. Perhaps the Gardeners dies there just to lead us, the audience, during that hologram to infer it was the last moment before we arrived on the scene since the body is still there, but if that’s true Who were they looking at over their shoulder? how did the other Gardeners get out of the room? Hmm, did we see them run into the room? I think we did – maybe not. Maybe “someone” else was already in the room and closed the door on that one Gardener who lost his head? I would mention one last thing. 56) The Gardeners preparing the ship in the control room hologram (with David) don't appear to be in any rush. Maybe that was taken before the "emergence" or maybe they're relaxed because they are the "others". If the prior case, then we know that the last Gardener, who ripped up David, did so with no knowledge of the emergency (since he was already in hyper sleep.) If the latter case, it might explain his bowing and then attacking (as opposed to leading/befriending, etc.). Whew...told you it was too much to type.

@ALL I have several questions but I'll start with this one: Does anyone else find it absurd that the "invitation" leading to LV-233 is a "constellation" of PLANETS? (Not sure if constellation only refers to stars.) I have a very limited understanding of astronomy so being educated to my ignorance in this is welcome. I do not understand how this could be an accurate address to an interstellar point as the planets comprising the "constellation" will be in a constantly changing orientation to one another as they travel along their respective orbits. Also, we know the ancient humans that recorded these depictions of the "invitation" were unable to observe the location, implying that each civilization that recorded it was given the same constellation as an "address." Even from a known origin (Earth), this seems like a terrible means to locate a point in space of an ever-changing group of planets from another planet which is also rotating and orbiting... and not necessarily along the same plane as the "constellation." Additionally [as a safety measure to my possible ignorance, disregard if I am right about them being planets], even if the "address" is of a constellation of STARS, the Isle of Skye cave drawing was from 35,020BCE... the "address" remained unchanged for 10s of thousands of years, would stars not even change observed relationship to one another over a span of 37,000 YEARS due to universal expansion? Was this some subtle hint that the "thesis" was not correct as David mentioned? I think it weak story-telling for the Prometheus crew to have discovered a planet with evidence of another species and direct connections to Earth and humans through sheer luck/coincidence.

@GameOverMan If the planetary alignments changed over time the Crew could just use a program to account for any changes in that particular star or planetary pattern. Even now we have software that will show us which stars and planets were observable in the night sky over Ancient Egypt around 10,000bce making corrections for the changes over vast amounts of time. @Dan321 Thank you so much for your insight! I consider myself a rather intelligent woman but sometimes I invest too much interest in the story rather than the themes and miss key points. This thread is awesome though, Its definitely my "go to" thread for answers. Any thoughts on a Sumerian connection? We the Adamu were created as slaves by the Annunaki who were supposedly very skilled in genetic engineering. There is an intermedairy between Annunaki and Admau, I just can't think of their name who could be represented by the gardeners. The Annunaki, the(enter name of race here) and the Adamu all share the same genetic code. So, it stands to reason, if we were created as slaves and we have already completed our task on earth then maybe it is time to wipe us out. ANd that fits nicely with my idea that they really don't care much for us.

@GameOverMan If the planetary alignments changed over time the Crew could just use a program to account for any changes in that particular star or planetary pattern. Even now we have software that will show us which stars and planets were observable in the night sky over Ancient Egypt around 10,000bce making corrections for the changes over vast amounts of time. @Dan321 Thank you so much for your insight! I consider myself a rather intelligent woman but sometimes I invest too much interest in the story rather than the themes and miss key points. This thread is awesome though, Its definitely my "go to" thread for answers. Any thoughts on a Sumerian connection? We the Adamu were created as slaves by the Annunaki who were supposedly very skilled in genetic engineering. There is an intermedairy between Annunaki and Admau, I just can't think of their name who could be represented by the gardeners. The Annunaki, the(enter name of race here) and the Adamu all share the same genetic code. So, it stands to reason, if we were created as slaves and we have already completed our task on earth then maybe it is time to wipe us out. ANd that fits nicely with my idea that they really don't care much for us.

ok so here is my take on the Engineer and Weyland meeting.. of course if given a sequel they can claim what ever take or a new one if they want. why does everyone who i see discussing this just assume that our dear old David even told the engineer what we were told for him to say.... maybe the key is what he said earlier, every child wants to kill his parents. maybe he said kill this man, and he looked at David lovingly because he knew what he "felt", maybe perhaps this is what happend with them in the past, they were created, they found their creators and killed them, only to do what they did before being killed. ie . "Here is my master, he made me to kill/control you, we woke you for this" then BAM. now there was obvious clues leading to the hard evidence of them being on our planet (or at least visiting and interacting), so what if they realized we were evolving to smart (note while the Alien species created though intelligent, has not been show to be "humanly" so homo-superior (?) , so maybe they took off realizing this (again the Jesus theroy they originated around fits in here)and decided to go design a WMD to solve the problem. and also create new life, something goes wrong obviously, and the crew dies, now keep in mind that this might not be on par with Alien, as diff location, but.. maybe same thing with a diff race, predator perhaps (keep in mind this movie does have sequel written all over it, and was written with such thoughts im sure, so more may be explained later, but the engineers could be "new" at this so maybe they didn't expect things to go awry idk, you get my point. so with all this he realized where they are from/who they are, plus he sees them all violent like, im sure he deduced that this was not good for him or his people. maybe even thinking they were the Xenomorphs, its a stretch, but he HAD been under for a long time.. not anything i stand by on that one but its a reasonable grasp.. the worm xenomorphs were white like a Caucasian. but even in the theater while David talked, all i was thinking was , really after all i have seen in this so far is David really concerned about them. this is all im touching on till i get some responses, but i LOVED this movie, and i hope it doesnt go the way of Pandorum and seep out of sight out of mind, and i also hope its not remembered/forgotten for its crucifixion by the un happy people. (plot based irony huh) i think a David/Shaw sequel would be awesome.... and ima go way out left field, but how cool would it be if somehow the engineers make David "real", only to have him impregnated and sent off to become the ALIEN space jockey... idk crazy, but we could have some crazy good connections to ALIEN if people support this and get us a sequel :)

@GameOverMAN! You're 100% spot on. I don't think the authors knew or cared about astronomical correctness, they just threw in the fascinating starmap concept (which works quite well as a plot device). In the end they had to appeal to the masses, not make a science class. The whole starmap thing is quite incorrect (from an astronomical point of view) and my guess is that the authors suspected it, hence the lack of any further explanation whatsoever: -we found this map, and we came here -how do you connect the two things? -er... the red herring is a fish that lives in cold waters and... bla bla bla...

@Sinestro Just because I didn't write (and anyone else for that matter) it doesn't mean I actually believe David8 told the truth about anything he said from the very beginning. I also made note from the trailers That it was odd that they all looked to David8 to translate saying, "I certainly hope YOU can read this" or something to that effect. They gave David8 a LOT of power by relying SOLELY on him for translation/communication. I was flabbergasted that these 2 "scientists" made these star map discoveries but neither one could read/translate/speak the ancient languages necessary. I also want to go further and say nearly everyone regards David8 with contempt for what he is, even his "father" points out that he is flawed. And yet, despite all this disdain no one minds relying heavily on David8 for basic needs and for important insight. Then even in the end he asks Shaw for help and her first response is WHY would I help YOU? Very interesting.

Oh I nearly forgot..What about the storm? Did David8 orchestrate that by accident or on purpose when he was messing with the control panels inside the structure? Was it initiated by the structure itself when the urn room door was breached? And what of the skull atop the structure? Looks unmistakably human, I think. So why's it there? "Death", "Keep Out"? Unlikely. What about "This structure contains the bio-weapons to wipe out the humans"? I'd damn sure like to see the other structures inner contents and "sign" atop telling what they are for.

Awesome thread! I had to go watch again after reading about the Engineer/SJ bowing after hypersleep, and it definately looks like a bow. He also stays in the bowing position until Shaw is hit in the stomach with the gun. That is when he stands, and Weyland say's "Tell him why we came" to David. Now, why couldn't David tell the Engineer/SJ what Weyland instructed? "My father/creator/master needs to prolong life/cheat death." Then the Engineer/SJ looks at David (with admiration?), then touching him realizing he's synthetic (possibly thinking, "I have to kill these weak, cowardly people), then killing everyone but Shaw. I also read in a different thread that the Engineers/SJ were clones (made by Creators to seed garden planets, among other things), and that is why they all look the same. Nobody responded to the theory though, so I was wondering what you guys thought of that idea. Awesome discussion guys! Keep it up.

Hi All, I updated my previous entries (above). With more observations and speculations based on those observations. Reread if the mood strikes.

I really hate and love you guys. I was so mad at this movie until I came here and read 80% of all the discussions. Now I have to watch it again. I had nothing but questions after the movie. Felt it had to many holes. Now you all answer most of them but now I have a whole other set of questions. The movie had alot of undertones. Most people are going to miss it (like i did the first time). Great job on the break down

@Daunda and @Recka73, glad you’re enjoying it. On Daunda supposition #1, #2 – I don’t know. I didn’t observe anything that would inform me on those questions. On Daunda supposition #3, David said there were other ships. So wouldn’t that mean more installations? If so wouldn’t that mean Shaw and David run into more Gardeners? Answer: Apparently not yet there were other stromatolite buildings. This does point to a huge script flaw. Our crew happens to walk into the mother load...which is pretty lucky but makes sense to allow the story to roll along quickly. On Daunda supposition #4, The possibility of Warring factions within the Gardeners. What if there was a rift (hear me out) within the gardeners, Hawks vs. Doves. Answer: I’d offer possible based on what we’ve seen. From the posts I put up, there is evidence that there was at least one other group, or faction, who may have a) mass poisoned (with virus) the Gardeners in the first hologram, b) chased (though we never see them) the Gardeners in the first hologram. On Daunda supposition #5, What do think Scott is implying by showing us to different gardeners? Answer: Honestly, I don’t know from observation that I saw different Gardener factions, however, I understand your inference and I’ve seen plenty of speculation based on story boards of scene additions that we don’t see in the movie. Actually, the only 'two factions' I can recall any evidence for are the 'dead holographic gardeners in the hall' and the 'last live gardener' woken up in the control room and that itself isn't a lock by any means. In fact, direct evidence of 'another team' is suspiciously missing from the holographic footage. @Recka73, you asked something similar about the Sumerian connection. I’ve seen those discussions as well and they might play into the story. I’m very familiar with the myths and could see how they fit, yet I’d hesitate to infer that they are or are not part of the final story. What I will offer out of the Story is that Ridley Scott has mentioned his thoughts are modeled on “Paradise Lost” and that story translated into the movie is highly consistent with an internal Gardener strife. If this is hard-scifi, however, then a singular “God” (to which “Gardeners” are either subservient to or in disagreement with) might simply be to the natural laws of the Universe which offers a realistic portrayal of the mystery in reality (such as in science and mysticism). Reflecting on this, this is highly consistent with the movies and hopefully what I’ve offered as my observations/reflections on Gardener dilemmas: "Every king has his reign and then he dies. That is the natural order of things." aka are earth humans and particularly David's kind an anathema or a new order? In truth, or from a certain perspective, those can be one in the same. Let me know on any questions I’ve missed and Have a great day, Dan

@engineer damu Glad you got something useful out of the conversation. If you have questions, feel free to bring them hear and/or tell us what we've been missing! Best, Dan

@Recka73 well i hope the Directors Cut or deleted scenes will explain more :)

@Dan321 Sorry. I didn't realize I was being redundant. I have all kinds of shit going on in my head, I'll try to put a better lid on it. @Sinestro Yah, I wish we could've seen subtitles for what David8 said which basically tells me, he's full of shit or else it would have had subs. I'm kinda disappointed in the fact that he's kinda regurgitated Ash because I was hoping David8 would be on the up and up. I know Michael Fassbender said he didn't watch the other androids in the alien movies, but I watched 'Alien' again today and he actually is very much like Ash. I think Michael gave an excellent performance, though.

@Recka73, hi Recka, I plucked these from one of your earlier question posts. Oh, and don't put a 'lid on it'. I only mentioned it was a similar approach to the movie to explain why I was typing the response to both questions together. supposition #1 …David said, How disappointing it would be to you if your makers say they made you because they could. Is that the answer? They only made us because they could? Or did they not even make us, were they compelled by who made them to make us? 1) think this is a fascinating question. My personal take is, per the start of the movie the Gardeners contributed the DNA fragments that evolved into all multicelluar life including us, however, the point David makes is right on target; evolution made us because it could. So what? 2) David is also perhaps elaborating on the his comment that he hopes he's not built too close [to humans/his creators] because to David finding one's creator is not something he had to seek out. Ya , ok, so what? 3) When the Gardener's head explodes in the lab containment, David's comment is they appear mortal after all. Hmm, ok and? 4) David points out just before meeting the live Gardener that they will be found "a superior species" and "their hyper sleep chambers will impress" a corollary being Gardeners require sleep chambers to travel through space just like you earth humans and hence you'll think this a sign of superiority YET David does not require a sleep chamber at all and (without this weakness upon which to improve better crutches) he is not recognized as a superior species, rather he is considered inferior. The movie is rife with these corollaries made by David which one might infer as foreshadowing David's role as an entirely different as not species or another genus or another family or another order, class, or even phylum or frankly kingdom - he's an entirely different manifestation of intelligence. 5) David epitomizes this when he notes "big things have small beginnings" about the black goo virus, but also himself." Are you saying David has ambitions? 6) Actually, far from it, he has no ambitions as far as I can tell, but he can recognize the reality of a situation without distorting it as earth humans do. He is rational and he recognizes his situation. Okay, but he read all those glyphs and set everyone up right? 7) Not exactly - David does many time purposefully put the group at risk. Say for example when he purposefully delays answering a request not to open the 'urn' room door until he has finished and then simply replies 'oops', but not for himself. What do you mean? 8) Precisely like in 2001, a Space Odessy, David is an AI, as was HAL9000, who has been given specific secret instructions that cause him to act in ways one might perceive as self motivated or self serving, but they are actually other serving. What? By Whom? 9) Peter Weyland. But hold on, we didn't see Weyland instruct David until much later in the movie? 10) Excellent observation and a good device to remember since Scott and the writers are using this device so often, I've rarely seen such a concentration of it in one story line. What do you mean? 11) Scott and the writers are presenting story that can only correctly be interpreted in light of facts we are given later in the story. This is a trope I see commonly in mysteries and requires the re-evaluation of all scenes in light new facts presented which can be quite a mental workout unless you are intuitive (hence somewhat atemporal) so people tend not to notice an a connection, but it is tenuously understood when explained with an 'ah ha' moment, but i digress….so 12) Although we did not, David knew Weyland was on board all along. We were shown David monitoring the dreams of the other passengers, just as he was able to receive instruction from Weyland, but we were force fed the red herring that Weyland had died. This by the was was explicitly for us, the audience. How do you know that? 13) Peter Weyland is essentially a King. No one can keep him off the ship as obviously he was on it. Do you think no one on Earth missed Peter Weyland? So the only people he would have been hiding it from would have been his own crew. What reason do you think that served? What's even odder is Peter seems surprised his daughter was on board at all indicating he was put in hyper sleep first and yet was she supposed to not know? I say that because 'her' operation chair was configured for a man, that man being Peter Weyland. I suspect it was Peter's life raft too so he could have his own place near the Gods if they be, but I digress. 14) David is doing Weyland's bidding, but that doesn't mean David doesn't have his own agenda. What what agenda and I thought you said he didn't have ambition? 15) Remember when Elizabeth Shaw was impregnated with a xeno, doped up, and about to be crated into a hyper sleep chamber. At that moment, she stopped being a 'person' she had now become a xeno collection device and was cut off from the rest humanity. Why do you say that? 16) Because that's when David confides in Elizabeth he violated her mind by watching her dreams and knows every personal thing that might have come to her mind. He asks her questions she'll find disturbing, such as how it must feel have her husband die like her father and what it must be like to realize your god is dead, etc. He is saying in a fashion that he knows her better than she knows herself. Watch that moment, David actually takes Elizabeth into his confidence. Conjecture, but I'd offer he does this because he finds her something he can't quite add up, irrational but instinctively correct, and hence special. That is conjecture - do you have proof? 17) Ever wonder why Elizabeth's cross was in David's utility belt? That is to say why David chose to keep Elizabeth's cross on his person. Yes? 18) Now you know why. What's more is that now David continues to keep her in his confidence, such as offering doesn't everyone want their parents dead, because he knows only he and Elizabeth know it probably doesn't matter any more. What do you mean? 19) David even admits to having a hand in Charlie's death by saying he knows it is safe to remove one's helmet (because he knows Charlie and humans can only catch the black goo virus through ingestion.) Elizabeth understands this and says nothing; in a sense keeping the information 'in confidence' and thereby sealing Elizabeth's and David's special relationship. What's more David can read the glyphs. Operate the Gardener dashboards and devices. He begins to deliberately nuance (mislead within bounds) Peter Weyland. I sensed that too, but do you have proof? 20) Remember the piles of urns? When Peter asks David, 'What is this" David says "A storage facility". At this moment, we the audience have been hamfistedly fed that this is a weapons depot through an awkward but apparently necessary scene in which Captain Janek informs Elizabeth that this place is a 'weapons facility' and the urns are filled with biological weapons which is why the Gardeners keep isolated from themselves. This sets the stae so when David misleads Peter that the audience can be sure to be 'in the know' with accompanying looks and lines from Elizabeth to Janek setting up the final sequence. Okay, so David is ambitious? 21) David is not ambitious. For example, he does not want Peter Weyland dead, but all things being equal he will give Peter what Peter wants and if that happens to coincide with with voluntary risky behavior David won't stop him from informedly hurting himself to achieve his stated goal. It is very much like David is constantly balancing an equation. How do you know this? 22) This is the exact same equation David demonstrated with Charlie, the drink, and the black goo virus finger tip. David explicitly asked Charlie "to get answers"… "What would you be willing to do?" David doesn't give Charlie the goo laced drink until immediately after Charlie says "I'd do anything." To which David says, "that calls for a drink" and hands Charlie the cup. David is following very explicit behavior rules even when it involves incredible risk for David himself which happens so often I won't give examples, but this said David knows the factual situation he's in (per above.) In a sense, David carries forward specific outcomes 'surfing' on the wave of self interest of others because he needs their full agreement. This is the corollary of his being programmed not to act against or remain neutral to people's needs hence working with people is necessary to achieve specific outcomes - making these outcomes 'spinoffs' of a person's. The "trick" is David doesn't have to disclose the 'spinoff' outcome as it is already in agreement with the subjects request even if the person who requested it is unaware of the specific "spinoff" outcome David is aware of. In this way, all related free agency literally remains with people and is denied to David. Naturally, David has learned to be quite adept at "exploiting" this "loophole". I'd offer this is a little bit about David's mo in the movie. Watch it again! Supposition #2, …did [David] get his head ripped off for the breach in containing the WMD? Is that the Prometheus connection? (It bothers me that the gardener looked at him so lovingly before ripping his head off. Even if he is not "alive" its still harsh the way it goes from complete love to contempt so quickly. #1) Another fascinating question. In short, I offer this is the most telling part of the entire movie about what's going on. Why do you say this? #2) I'll explain, but first I'll note that you know this yourself. Know how you know this? No, how? #3) You know this because you (and by 'you' I mean everyone who saw the film) found this sequence confusing…at least for some period of time. (Interestingly, the longer you found this confounding is an expression of how much integrity you have, that is truthfulness with yourself about yourself.) A great number of people, for example, were highly annoyed because they inferred that if they couldn't readily understand the answers presented in this clearly important scene, then there must be something 'wrong' with this movie. (Broadly speaking, this is known as narcisssm.) ...but I digress. #4) So we all knew this was an important scene. I'd offer we really don't know why what happened happened, but we can work through what we observed so #5) David opens the living Gardener's hyper sleep/cryo chamber. The Gardener starts to immediately sit up disconnecting his life support tubes. The Gardeners then leans over the chamber's edge and coughs. (This is designed to make the audience recall the same reaction of Elizabeth when she awoke from her chamber and that, as David pointed out, this is a human not a god.) #6) The Gardener exits the chamber in a very, very quick series of camera shots that flip between Gardner exiting and quickly going down on one or both knees head on the ground (incidentally or purposefully placing his head at Peter's feet), startling Peter Weyland into leaning backward to have David steady him. Then if memory serves Elizabeth demands David ask why the [Gardners] hate earth humans. To which Peter, basically tells her to hush up. They argue and she gets hit. During this sequence, the Gardener is shown clearly kneeling on one knee before Peter and begins to dare to lift his head and actually look at the earth humans. He then stands up. David speaks a combination of ancient languages (presumably conveying Peter's request, though potentially Elizabeth's as well.) At which point, the Gardener looks at each of the earth humans, including the doctor, and then places his hand on David's head and appears to stroke his hair. He then grabs David by the neck and lifting him off the ground before basically ripping David's head off his shoulders. …I'm off to bed…to be continued.

@ChanceCummings I think the idea of the Engineers(SJ) being clones is interesting. The ones we see sans helmet appear identical to one another. I was discussing the fact with a friend that it is odd that our DNA would be derived from their's and yet there seems to be much more genetic variation within our species. Looking at our own planet, the more complex a lifeform, the more varied their gene pool. And yet, the Engineers(SJ) APPEAR superior to us in all other observable ways. Going with the religious undertones, what if they serve a role similar to Christian angels? They are the servants of their god(s)/creator(s) and do his/her/their bidding... Some others have mentioned this role. It would help explain some things but I don't think it is very interesting story-telling (many of us being aware at some level of biblical tales). @ALL What do you all think about the idea of a follow-up movie not being a sequel at all, but rather another prequel where we would learn more about the role of Engineers/SJ and actual see exactly what transpired to incite them to pursue our destruction? It's definitely a departure from the usual story-telling.

In essence, it proposes that to create life, one must first destroy life. @recka73 well i would think that he would have been the same as Ash, as IF he did all he did FOR Weyland, they might have wanted to keep the same programming. Now Bishop wasn't programmed like that, and as he said the other model was faulty... so maybe a incident off screen happened where the company directive messed up a project elsewhere publicly and that lead them to blaming the model and redoing/or/hiding the old orders and making a non loyal drone.. think Order 66 (Star Wars) blah

@Sinestro, On Bishop, remember in Alien 3, how it turned out Bishop was modeled after the Weyland Corp. Lead Xenobiologist (who shows up just as Ripley falls into the reactor core)? Yes, so? #1) I had always inferred that Bishop was modeled on him, however, Ripley was in stasis in space for I think around 80 years when she landed at the prison colony. Meaning the Lead Xenobiologist from Weyland Corp if human would have to be very, very old to have been the physical role model for Bishop (who left Earth in Aliens). Hmm, so what? #2) More practical would be that the Weyland Corp Lead Xenobiologist was actually a synthetic human himself (the same model as Bishop or a later model that looked like Bishop) What's more is that means the synthetic human is running the Xenobiology division of Weyland Corp. Ok, odd, but so what? #3) Remember in Aliens how Carter Burke wanted to bring back an Alien specimen so badly he actually contrived to infect Ripley and Scout? That's because he knew how much it was worth to Weyland Corp. Ok, so what? #3) Remember how Ash, the standard issue (secretly) synthetic human aboard the Nostromo, also had standing orders (only he knew of) to bring back anty significant alien lifeforms? Ok, so what? #4) Ash was a standard issue synthetic human with these standing orders just in case. That means all those Weyland Corp mining ships, et al, with their standard issue synthetic humans had standing orders to retrieve an significant alien lifeforms. And all of them with the caveat of crew expendable if necessary. Pretty grim, but so what? #5) Did you notice that it was a network of synthetic humans who know/have these orders? Interesting, but what are you getting at? #6) We know the Bishop model was in charge of Weyland Corp. Xenobiology by the time of Alien 3. We know since the time of Alien, some 150+ years earlier, it was already Weyland corporation standard policy to entrust the mission of collecting a significant alien if necessary at the expense of the human crew. This would appear to make it plausible that synthetic humans both managing Weyland Corp central and on their fleet of ships are working together to desperately enough to make crew expendable to acquire an alien. Sound like the Weyland Corp synthetic humans literally have secret agenda? Enjoy! Dan

@dan is it true that Shaw is now a mixed species between the xeno and human, or was it just someone getting the facts mixed up, as i read it elsewhere...

@ Xenodochy I like your point about the mural and the xeno remaining. That was another thing in the movie that was bothering me.

@Space Cherry, you're right! The correct word it is 'genuflect'; I'll re-title the thread. Personally, I think when he goes to the floor head at Peter's feet that is a full bow, but I agree the kneeling/genuflecting is more unmistakable if only the way the scene is cut - it has longer screen time. Thanks for reporting back and congratulations on your first post! It is late again. I'll check on additional posts and be sure to leave any reflections I have that appear worthwhile. Hope you all will do the same. Best, Dan

Great post! Really absorbing and dynamic. Three points: 1) The murals fade yet the xenomorph remains. Perhaps it is real: the killer of the Gardeners hibernating against its own image. Was it also the xenomorph that placed the urns in the chamber. 2) Do you consider the Gardeners to have been grown, in much the same way as a plant. Mr Giger's work conveys this (amongst other things) and of course his hand and head were involved in the beginning and is slated apparently to be involved in Prometheus' end. Or revelations. God is said to merely say, "Be" and it Is. 3) Also, what do you think has happened/is happening to the movie's protagonist, Dr Shaw? If the Gardeners sought a weed-killer to eradicate mankind she could embody it, surely?

@ChanceCummings who i respect you having your own opinion.... i think its a load of crap that he would be forced to be docile.. (i mean how many crazy robot gone mad films have we seen lol) and i say that with Dexter on the brain (the tv serial killer), he gets pushed around all the time and will wait to strike when its the perfect moment... David could just have been bidding his time... i have as much of a argument for him being self acting as anyone else has that he isnt. but the evidence is their either way. which is why i love this movie, you can draw your own conclusions and discuss till your blue in the face, well worth more then ticket price if you ask me. you all have seemingly great idea keep it coming :) @Deneba321 to be honest ill have to go back and see it, i could swear though that bishop was modeled after Weyland.... ill have to re watch them soon. but i thought that was also the point of AvP casting of Weyland as the bishop guy, as well as Guy looking alot like a young Bishop... anyone know more on this? maybe im nuts...

@Deneba321 Does the initial genuflection of the Gardener perhaps indicate that he, having just been awoken from stasis, thinks that his visitors are creators/gods? Very quickly he realises four things: 1) David has no DNA 2) All the others bar Elizabeth Shaw have human DNA 3) Elizabeth Shaw has both human and xeno DNA 4) As he is being asked to assist his visitors he knows they are not his creators (gods) but the very creatures he is charged with destroying. This scenario explains why he starts killing when Shaw is thumped. He does not want her hurt, as she is living proof that their work has succeeded. Later, his attack upon her is to subdue, capture and take her to Earth, not kill her - she is the last urn after the others were consigned to the conflagration. She displays several xeno characteristics: great strength; imperviousness to pain; adaptability to strange conditions; indifference to nakedness. To cap it all, she goes on to say that she wants to visit the Gardeners’ home planet to ask them why they seek to destroy humanity! What human in their right mind would do that? That would be suicidal and Dr Elizabeth is anything but that.

@ just a fun thing i noticed... Engineers have no nipples... asexual species? or not natural

@Deneba321 hi thanks for your reply, I'm not saying I disbelieve you, I just think your seeing something that isn't there I went to see it before I read this, I already knew about the project back in 2002 when Scot and Cameron first started the project then sidetracked it for AvP although this pissed me off I forgave this since I was expecting it from the predictor 2 hint and was looking forward to seeing where it was going, but due to AvP they had to scrap the story and start again maybe not from scratch but it had to be changed since they would clash to much, anyway back to it so I watched it b4 this post and iv watched it three more times since(lots of friends wanting to watch it at different times lol) so 4 times and still just see a man, a big man who's been a sleep for 2000 yrs wakes up and tries to walk and falls to his feet (GODS DO NOT BOW) so I'm sorry mate, its not a case of me not believing you, I just think your wrong on this point everything else makes sense just not him bowing before an inferior species. as for your comment on memory your preaching to a preacher my friend I am the happy owner of a photographic memory so didn't need to watch it 4 times lol but I enjoyed it every time even though iv spent £60 in one week on it, well at least iv contributed to the next one ;) all said well done on keeping people talking because the more a film is talked about the bigger the chance of a second its not just the money. keep up the good work I'm enjoying your writings ;) Andy