The FINAL Canon Debate

Dont get me wrong i am not no anti AVP. The movies was pop corn but i felt would be done better. Infact i feel the movies was a waste of a licence and they should had been done in the same timeline that the computer games was, then if done right they could have been accepted as canon more my many people. The AVP2 game for PC (old one) and Requelm expansion (where we first see the Pred-Alien) i thought was very good, and the newer one on PC and Consoles was also good.

@ Big Dave... I'm actually glad you bring up Batman... When talking in terms of "canon" regards Batman, the only subject matter that features Batman that is considered canon by DC and batman fans are the comics, unless explicitly stated otherwise by DC such as with Batman vs Aliens, Batman vs Dredd, and the various "What if" stories. Yet all other features that feature Batman - Cartoons, black and white matinee serial, 70's TV serial, 80/90's film series, Nolan's Trilogy, etc. - are considered adaptations, and are not considered canon by either DC or the fans. Ridley Scott is a director and as such has no say one way or the other as to whether or not AVP is or isn't canon, that responsibility lays on the shoulders of both FOX and Brandywine Productions, both of which were involved in both AVP films. Also had AVP been done as it was in the comics and/or games then the outrage would have been even greater than it is now, because the end result would have simply been James Cameron's Aliens, but with Predators in it. Hardcore Alien fans would have felt that it infracted to much upon the Alien franchise. What FOX did with AVP was the right choice - setting it chronologically between the two franchises so that it could act as a bridge between the two franchises, the only problem was the approach - instead of a WWE face-off (AVP) and a teeny slasher (AVPR), we should have had films that honored the nature of the originals, which in terms of basic structure were identical. But for the very reason that the films are set as a bridge between the two franchises naysayers argue against its inclusion because they either don't like the idea of one big franchise or they hate the films themselves.

Oh Snorky as far as someone else being Peters dad who was a billionaire.... we dont know, we know nothing much about Weyland or his father. So yes there is a potential that he had a billionaire father and while that is a possibility because it also does not say that a Charles Weyland is or is not related to Peter does mean it can be a possibility. Again only one person has that answer and thats Ridley Scott, but as Fox owns the franchises maybe they are the best ones to clear up any debate.

@Snorks , A scenario for you…… Said Joe sees the trailer for Prometheus on T.V, enjoys it and wants to see it again. He goes online searching for the trailer and finds Weyland Industries website. He goes on it to find promotion for the film, namely the Peter Weyland’s TED talk. After watching the short video he wants to find out more about that man behind the company. He reads the timeline and loves it. Later that day AVP is on. He decides to watch it and notices that it is set in 2004 and Weyland Industries being mentioned. He then remembers that the timeline said that Peter built the company in 2012. He thinks for a second and says to himself…………………….. “It must be a reboot”. I say reboot because I’m talking about how the company started and what sort of person started said company. I also take the view that Alien and Predator are different universes. The only way they are a part of the same universe is in a crossover/what if film that is separate from the original idea’s. It is my point of view that why do they have to be apart of the same universe.

@ ETB... I understand your position and your opinion, but do you understand mine. Step outside the box of your opinion and look at things from a neutral point of view, then step inside my box and look at things from my point of view. Is that not what you are asking of me, to believe in your position and see things from your point of view, I only ask that you do the same. Having all of these franchises part of the same universe opens up more possibilities than are available if the franchises remain separate. Regards your Joe scenario... Why would he jump to the conclusion of reboot. Said Joe, is actually a friend of mine called James, and when I directed him to said "11th October 2012" segment on weylandindustries.com's corporate timeline, his response was "Huh, this Peter guy wrote the guy from AVP out of the history of the company", and that was without any mention from myself as to the very same possibility that I have put forward here in this thread, saying the same thing.

@Snork, Why Joe would jump to that conclusion is simple, movies get reboots. They are getting them more than ever these days. I know they are from comic books but batman gets a reboot often, Spiderman gets them and superman is getting one. If you want some that aren’t comics: Star Trek, Nightmare on Elm Street and Planet of the apes. Why you and your friend have jumped to the conclusion that “Peter wrote that guy out of history” is a mystery in itself. Based on what evidence could you get that from? There’s no point in saying that, that is the sort of thing he would do. That doesn’t prove anything. I do understand where you are coming from in this debate. There is a lot of evidence to support your claim but the point I have made is enough for me to separate AVP from Prometheus and Alien. Until there is information between 2004 and 2012 the two won’t go hand in hand. I won’t lie, I do like the thought of Alien Vs. Predator. Done the right way you could get a great action film out of the idea. I understand that there is a lot of information from both universes to make an interesting story and have interesting concepts for an AVP universe.

@ ETB... Er, Superman is not getting a reboot. the canonical universe exists within, and only within the comics, the forthcoming movie directed by Zack Synder is a fresh adaptation, not a canonical reboot of the character or the franchise. My friend, on his own conviction came to the conclusion "Huh, this Peter guy wrote the guy from AVP out of the history of the company", because, and to use his own words, not mine "Well obviously AVP is part of the Alien universe, because it has Aliens in it". Can't really fault that logic really know can you. As I've said before, and in part from your own contribution - Weyland Corporation and Weyland Industries first appeared in AVP, thus Prometheus using them contributes the possibility of AVP being canon. And before the 2012 segment of the sites corporate timeline is mentioned, as I have just said they first appeared in AVP. Does Prometheus make Alien non-canonical - The company in Prometheus is Weyland Corp, the company in Alien in Weylan-Yutani. Where'd the D go. The link between CB Weyland and Peter Weyland, and the company(s) names and inceptions can easily be explained by various methods not beyond the realm of reason within this fictional universe. And Unfortunately I disagree with you your final point... [i]Done the right way you could get a great action film out of the idea.[/i] ...IMO, done the right way you could get a suspenseful and shocking horror film out of the AVP idea, if you just honor the original, mother franchises and take the idea seriously.

@Snork, Your friend’s logic was used at the start of this debate with others in this discussion. David 1 said [i] Did ALIEN had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS had predators in it? - NO Did ALIENS 3 had predators in it? - NO, but had some nasty predators of another kind Did ALIENS 4 had predators in it? - NO Conclusion: Predators ARE NOT ALIEN UNIVERSE CANON.[/i] I know you went on to say that lack of characters does not mean lack of existence but I could use that for anything. I could with time use your logic and say that the Corleone family from The Godfather is canon with Alien. In terms of dropping the D from Weyland, that causes problems for the both of us. Weyland started in Aliens and was used from there so not much else we could say on that. I don’t know about this… [i]...IMO, done the right way you could get a suspenseful and shocking horror film out of the AVP idea, if you just honor the original, mother franchises and take the idea seriously.[/i] For a suspenseful film you would need to build up the predator and the alien separately. That would take up a lot of time. Just look at the original films for reference. You would also have to build up the human characters that you are going to care about. Character development is very important to a film or no one would care. The film would need to be long. For a shocking horror film with an Alien and a Predator you would need to introduce something new to the mix. It won’t be shocking if you know what the Alien and the Predator are going to do. If you just have the Alien and Predator killing people in very nasty ways then that would just lessen the film, like SAW or Final Destination. The main problem is that Predator is about action whereas Alien is not. Alien and Predator are two very different films. Yes the two build up the suspense by not showing them until late on but that’s about it. Now if you go the way of Aliens then that is action. There is long character development but it’s leading to the action. No point in having an Alien stalking everyone that’s just a repeat of the first film. There are loads of them and that means action. 1 Predator against 1 Alien is not much of a contest when you know what a Predator can do. The Aliens would need to outnumber the Predator to be effective. This all leads to an action film. Action + a bit of Horror + Suspense = a good film (if done right). But anyway………. AVP isn’t canon with Prometheus and Alien.

@ ETB - Bishop II was mentioned in Aliens, therefore how can I accept as canon in Alien 3, its not a case of lack of presence = lack of existence, context is the key, otherwise its just stupid, so please. And regards AVP, your are talking to creative writer whom is currently penning a scary, suspenseful screenplay for another AVP movie - the film would not need to be as long as you presume. The first Alien and Predator films are virtually identical in terms of their underlining structure, layer of reveal and beats of the story. AVP can be done justice, with the right attitude. and correction... [b]In your opinion[/b] AVP isn't canon with Prometheus and Alien

@snork It was your logic, not mine. Regards your screenplay, any chance you could gave a sample of it? Don’t get me wrong I wasn’t looking down on you or anything. My idea of making a film is pretty old school. I would build suspense slowly. You're right AVP can be done justice with the right attitude. It seems you and I come at films from different perspectives. You being a creative writer and me studying film for a few years and being taught photography by a film director. Back to subject at hand though. Regarding the timeline. [i] It is clearly stated above that Peter Weyland is the founder and CEO of Weyland Corporation. The Founder and CEO of Weyland Industries is clearly shown in AVP to be Charles Bishop Weyland.[/i] Your words not mine.

For info on the AVP screenplay I currently working on head [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/5103]HERE[/url].

I think the true problem of AVP being accepted as Canon comes down to the production of the films themselves. Everytime I view these films I get the sense that I am watching low quality science fiction on the big screen. Or high quality cable science fiction at its best. The quality of these films do not stand up to Alien, Alien 2, and Alien 3. Even the three Predator films are of higher quality then any of the AVP films. I think that quality of production is the true problem here when speaking of the AVP films.

@ Rubirosa, I full heartedly agree, AVP is best described as a superficial, high gloss WWE royal rumble between the two species and AVPR is best described as teen slasher TV movie. And such many judge their inclusion as canon on the basis of the production value of the movies. Good films they are not, but underneath all the bad acting, sub-par effects and cheesy posturing are elements that in the grand scheme of things work alongside the mother franchises - Weyland and Yutani, the Princess Alien, Predators rite of passage, the first civilization, an Elite Predator - all of these ideas are valid and add depth to both mother franchises and the franchise as a whole. As I have said before - I would rather have a larger universe with more possibilities, than have a small universe with limited possibilities - and AVP gives us more possibilities, more choice and more creative avenues to explore. All we need is a movie that does the idea justice. Aside from the opinions of some, Alien Resurrection is generally considered canon, yet the opinion of many is that AVP is a better movie.

I go by what I call the "Brandywine Rule"; movies that were approved by David Giler, Walter Hill, and Gordon Carroll. The reason why is that they had specific ideas as to what the [i]Alien[/i] universe would be like. For example, back when Ridley Scott was in his first "I Hate Science Fiction" phase, he wanted Ash to be a Martian and for the alien to talk with Ripley's voice after biting off her head. He also thought that the Universe would be somewhat Star Wars/Star Trekkish, in that it would be populated by anthropomorphic aliens flying around in spaceships. Giler and Carroll took him aside and set him straight. Although their individual names and the name of their production company appear in the credits of [i]Alien: Resurrection[/i], [i]AVP[/i] and [i]AVP:R[/i], they had nothing to do with them. In fact, they tried to prevent the making of [i]Alien: Resurrection[/i] and fought to have their names excluded from the credits. Here is my listing: [i]Prometheus Alien Aliens Alien³[/i]

Sorry to burst your bubble Hercules, but David Giler and Walter Hill were very much involved in AVP and AVPR, as without them the films could not have been made. Brandywine Productions (thats Giler and Hill) own the productions rights and intellectual rights to the Alien creature and anything pertaining to the universe they exist within. Without their inclusion, and without their active involvement no movie can be made featuring the Alien creature or any elements of its universe. They not only allowed both AVP's and Alien Resurrection to be made, they were involved and were paid, quite well I might add for their active involvement. IMO Brandywine don't deserve the rights and are the reason the Alien franchise has suffered so much - remember the mess that is the theatrical version of Alien 3 is more David Gilers film than it is David Finchers.

[i]Sorry to burst your bubble Hercules, but David Giler and Walter Hill were very much involved in AVP and AVPR, as without them the films could not have been made.[/i] Again, I'm going with what Giler said in his interview on the Alien Anthology box set. [i]Brandywine Productions (thats Giler and Hill) own the productions rights and intellectual rights to the Alien creature and anything pertaining to the universe they exist within. Without their inclusion, and without their active involvement no movie can be made featuring the Alien creature or any elements of its universe.[/i] Which is why all [i]Alien[/i]-related products have the 20th Century Fox logo and copyright and no mention of Brandywine, save for production credits. Got it. [i]They not only allowed both AVP's and Alien Resurrection to be made, they were involved and were paid, quite well I might add for their active involvement.[/i] See my first reply. [i]IMO Brandywine don't deserve the rights and are the reason the Alien franchise has suffered so much - remember the mess that is the theatrical version of Alien 3 is more David Gilers film than it is David Finchers.[/i] They weren't the ones interfering with the production of [i]Alien³[/i]; it was two execs from Fox that added to Fincher's woes. This is documented in [i]Dark Eye: The Films of David Fincher[/i]. Again, if it weren't for Brandywine, the franchise would have suffered from the aforementioned "innovations" Sir Ridley had proposed.

No offence intended here Hercules, [u]Alien[/u] Dan O'Bannon, with a little assistance from Ronald Shussett, penned the screenplay for Alien. Eventually they approached Giler, Hill and Carroll with their script. Giler, by changing the character names and adding the character of Ash, and the "corporate conspiracy" element of the story (an idea that was penny to a pound in the 70's, and already overused), was able to claim the script was his work and thus claim for the production and intelectual rights of the script, characters and universe. this is despite the fact that 90% of what you see on screen in Alien came to fruition by its creator Dan O'Bannon - Gigers involvement, Ron Cobb's involvement, the design of the Facehugger, the Space Jockey set... all because of Dan O'Bannon, the creator. but whom got credit, whom got paid the lions share and whom (because of his underhand tactics) owned the intelectual and production rights - David Giler. Add to this that Giler, a failed director (just watch any of his movies), constantly interfered with the production, royally pi**ing off Ridley and making, what was his second only movie a living hell. [u]Aliens[/u] Then fast forward a few years, despite having made one turd of a film in Pirahna 2 David Giler accepted a screenplay from James Cameron for an Alien 2 (later Aliens). On the sheer basis of whether The Terminator was a success or not David Giler allowed Jim to write, produce and direct Aliens. On set, david Giler constantly interfered, as he did with Alien, demanding rewrites and production schedule changes. At one point Jim, and his then partner Gale Anne Hurd nearly walked out of production because of Giler. [u]Alien 3[/u] In addition to what I have already mentioned, Ren Harlin was approached, came up with ideas and discussed pre-production ideas, then pulled out. As did David Thowy and Vincent Ward, all because of David Giler's interference. With the release date fast approaching first time movie director David Fincher was brought on board to write and direct the movie, incorporating existing cast, sets and props, all under a tight deadline. A mountain in itself. Then David Giler, no one else, made Finchers life hell demanding rewrites, scene changes and editorial changes. After filming 95% of the footage Fincher walked out telling Giler "Go f*ck yourself, make your own damn film." To which Giler did, despite being over schedule and over budget - the Dog burster, the queen burster, the Bishop II mess up... all Giler. [u]Alien R[/u] Alien 3 was critical panned, yet made a profit. Fox knew this and so did Giler. Fox demanded another sequel, and the ball started rolling. Giler, realising his direct involvement was no longer required to recieve a substantial paycheck gave permission for the the production to go ahead and pre-production began. Joss Whedon wrote a screenplay where Newt was cloned, the resulting change of it being Ripley was Gilers idea. The use of ADI for the creature effects, was because of Giler (because they are cheap). the french Director Jean Pierre Jeunet, made the film as he was instructed by Giler, much to Whedons annoyance. Put Simply Giler just coudn't help himself. David Giler is a greedy, slimy, f*cking as*hole, who not only doesn't deserve the rights, he has abused those rights to interfere, time and again, twisting the movies to his own liking and at the beck and call of Sigourney Weaver's wishes. Why did the films get progressive worse, why was AVP a PG-13, and AVPR handed over to two morons... David Giler.

I would really like to review your sources for these claims. Not that I don't trust you, but this is the Internet, ya know. :)

My sources Hercules are Dan O'Bannon, Ronald Shusset, Ridley Scott, James Cameron, Stan Winston, Ren Harlin, David Thowy, Vincent Ward, David Fincher, Josh Whedon, Paul W. S. Anderson, All four Alien movies and behind the scenes documentaries and both AVP movies and their documentaries, and Walter Hill. And I am 100% sure there are countless others whom this moron has scorned in the past. If not for Dan O'Bannon none of us would be here discussing the Alien franchise, yet who has profited from it, and holds ultimate creative control over it - David Giler.

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen Giler as the instigator of the production problems of the first three [i]Alien[/i] films per the documentaries in the Quadrilogy DVD and Alien Anthology Blu Ray sets and books about the making of these movies. There is a video resale shop in my neighborhood that lets me borrow movies (I'm friends with the owner). Just for giggles, I'll stop in and see if they have the two [i]AVP[/i] movies and watch the supplemental materials to see what kind of mention Giler gets.

Hercules, all that I have mentioned about Giler is common knowledge to any Alien fan

Snorklebotton, I've been collecting [i]Alien[/i] ephemera since buying an issue of [i]Heavy Metal[/i] in the June of 1978. Not only have I collected and examined books and magazines over the past 34 years, I have watched countless documentaries. I would like to think I'm an [i]Alien[/i] fan. Aside from some rewrites and wrestling [i]Alien[/i] away from O'Bannon and Shusett, Giler isn't being portrayed as the boogeyman that you see. That being said, allow me to watch the [i]AVP[/i] DVD supplements to see what extent Giler had with those movies. If any of what you said is "common knowledge to any [i]Alien[/i] fan", then I (or anybody else) should be able to see what you say as being true. You know the old saying: "Trust, but verify." :)

Verify as in David Giler saying he didn't want Alien R to be made, but not only gave the greenlight for the film but then told Whedon to rewrite his screenplay with Ripley not Newt being cloned, and then accepting a lions share paycheck. Verify as in David Giler giving the greenlight for both AVP and AVPR, demanding AVP be a PG-13 so that it would make more money, allowing the rights to be used for the laserquest game at whichever attraction it is, none of that could have gone ahead with Gilers say so. And I never said Giler was a boogeyman, I said he was an as*hole, an opinion held by all the names mentioned above - in fact it wouldn't surprise me if it was Giler that suggested Lindelof rewrite Spaihts' screenplay.

[i]Verify as in David Giler saying he didn't want Alien R to be made, but not only gave the greenlight for the film but then told Whedon to rewrite his screenplay with Ripley not Newt being cloned, and then accepting a lions share paycheck. Verify as in David Giler giving the greenlight for both AVP and AVPR, demanding AVP be a PG-13 so that it would make more money, allowing the rights to be used for the laserquest game at whichever attraction it is, none of that could have gone ahead with Gilers say so.[/i] Okay... [url]http://alienseries.blogspot.com/2012/08/path-to-prometheus.html[/url] [i]And I never said Giler was a boogeyman, I said he was an as*hole[/i] I was using a figure of speech. [i]in fact it wouldn't surprise me if it was Giler that suggested Lindelof rewrite Spaihts' screenplay.[/i] Too bad it wasn't. Well, my three-hour breakfast is over, so I gotta earn a "lion's share of a paycheck" of my own. If I get back early enough from my flight this evening, I might stop in here before tracking down a DVD or Blu ray of [i]AVP[/i] or [i]AVP:R[/i]. May you and the others have a great day! : )

[i]Giler and Hill as per Alien 3[/i] According to Hill, both were "sick of it" and wanted to put an end to the series. As on Alien, they took over writing the script (they walked at one point when Fincher brought in Rex Pickett, who submitted a new draft with a note attached that insulted the film's producers). Giler's antagonising of Fincher only went as far as calling him a "shoe salesman" - the thorn in Fincher's side was Jon Landau, a complete milquetoast of a man and a producer for James Cameron since the mid 90's. Giler's demands on Alien 3 gave us the chestburster at the end; the dog/ox change was Fincher's idea, as he didn't think the ox footage was up to par; because a dog monster had been done in The Thing, and because he reckoned an ox was too docile a host to explain the Alien's "ravenous attack mode". For any of the film's faults, Hill admitted, "certainly some of that is our fault," and said the script wasn't as good as Alien's. On the making of DVD, Giler says the film failed to be scary when it should have been. [i]Giler and Hill as per Alien R[/i] Walter Hill: "We had nothing to do with that one, didn't even think it was a good idea for starters, we thought we had ended the series. And our relationship with the studio had deteriorated more ... Our only real function was telling the studio that the script they developed without our input wasn't any good and wouldn't work." Fox are obliged to credit Brandywine no matter how small their contributions and involvement (or how testy their relationship), just as they have to credit Dan O'Bannon and Ron Shussett. Diane O'Bannon still has to be notified of any further Alien films and receives. As for AVP, the reason it didn't get made in the 90's was because of the broken relationship Hill, Giler, and Joel Silver. The film was only greenlit because they all mutually agreed to it; from there, Fox made the film on Anderson's back, and even with consultation with Dan O'Bannon (who suggested that the Alien should evolve into a Predator, to make for some relationship between the two - O'Bannon had originally imagined that his Alien would become some creature of culture). No doubt about it, Giler IS an asshole - he routinely trashed O'Bannon; made up stories about what he added to Alien (like Jones the cat, who was present in Dan's script, albeit unnamed); claimed Cameron's payment for the Aliens screenplay; and then shrugged off the series after what seems to have been a halfhearted attempt at writing Alien 3 ("we felt we were working in handcuffs," said Hill, "plot moves that had been committed to that we didn't agree with ... we did our best and went home"). To lay A:R as well as both AVPs solely on his head is to ignore the push of Twentieth Century Fox and about a dozen other integral and creative people involved in the process. Yeah, those arguably films couldn't have been made if Giler said otherwise (though it didn't stop Fox from making A:R despite Brandywine's protestations), but they also required a "yes" from Walter Hill and, in the case of AVP, Joel Silver. Additionally, if there's any evidence of Giler being actively involved in A:R and both AVPS, I'd like to see it. References please.

Regards the AVP's giler gave his permission, knowing he would make a pretty penny from the idea, regards Alien R, it was Giler whom demanded Whedon change his original screenplay to have Ripley be cloned (originally it was Newt), because as Giler put it - "You can't have an Alien film without the central character"... funny I thought the central character was the Alien, not the stupid b**ch that keeps getting away. What Giler really meant was - Without Weaver this film won't sell, I'll make no money and thus there's no point.

[i]Regards the AVP's giler gave his permission, knowing he would make a pretty penny from the idea[/i] As did Walter Hill, Joel Silver, and O'Bannon, who was consulted on the story and given a co-story credit for Anderson reusing the pyramid and ancient alien angle. [i]regards Alien R, it was Giler whom demanded Whedon change his original screenplay to have Ripley be cloned (originally it was Newt), because as Giler put it - "You can't have an Alien film without the central character"[/i] Gonna need a reference for that. Nevertheless, Giler and Hill were marginalised on that film and by their own account had no creative input. Where's the evidence otherwise, I need to see it. [i]What Giler really meant was - Without Weaver this film won't sell, I'll make no money and thus there's no point.[/i] Same thing Tom Rothman said for Alien 3. Of course, as before, a reference is needed. Whedon himself has only ever namechecked Fox brass, not Brandywine.

@ Valaquen, watch the second disc if the Alien R special edition DVD for your references. As fun as this Giler bashing is, time to get back to topic.

I think we can't oficially prove it isn't canon but we also can't prove it is. So, it should be up to each of us to decide. For me, it isn't.

@ Xenomorph 54, Which in turn is the problem. Look at other franchises... Gears of War - creators Epic games have officially announced that the games, the comics and the novels are all canon. Star Wars - Lucas as officially announced that their are three levels of canonicity, THE canon which is the film, ALTERNATE canon which is the games, novels, comics, cartoons etc. and FAN fiction which covers everything else. ...What we need is an official statement from FOX/Brandywine clearly defining what is and what isn't canon, because until then we are just going to go round in circles. @ ETB, Having looked into corporate recognization, it appears that all a company needs to be recognized is a "certificate of incorporation", of which you mentioned before. Yet it appears the name on the company is of little importance, It is the business number that is important. Furthermore a certificate, as is the case with land-deeds can be sold and bought or cancelled. Turns out corporate law allows a company to exist, and then falter, and a new company with the same name as the previous failed company to emerge. In fact two companies can exist with the same name, even the same logo, unless the company name and/or logo is patented. Which mutes the who corporate timeline argument, I believe.