The FINAL Canon Debate

Alien Movies Forum Topic

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJul 25, 2012Pinned Topic28677 Views192 Replies

Many, many times other members and myself have put forward the possibility that the following film franchises all exist within the same fictional universe and are thus all canon to one another... [center][b]Predator - AVP - Prometheus - Alien[/b][/center] ...Yet many, many naysayers and detractors voice their opinions stating this is not the case. 9 times out of 10, such arguments are subjective, from individuals whom don't like the idea. Now, while some of those supporting the idea of these franchises existing within the same universe may also have subjective arguments, I do not. I have looked at this debate from an objective point of view and always reach the same conclusions... - There is more information in the movies to suggest they are all set within the same fictional universe - There is no contradictory information in the movies that states otherwise - There has not been any official statement stating otherwise To that end I challenge the naysayers to disprove, with verifiable sources for their information and statements, why these franchises are not part of the same universe.

thegoodtimesguru
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

thegoodtimesguruOctober 18, 2012

Its all cannon until a new movie contradicts it.

N3cr0n0mIV
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

N3cr0n0mIVOctober 19, 2012

The whole Charles Bishop Weyland character in AVP was a retarded idea... because "Bishop II" in Alien 3 is, in fact, not a synthetic. In the extended cut, Lance Henricksen says he is not a droid, and there is no white blood. Unfortunately by leaving out this dialogue, it makes it difficult to tell if he is an android or not since the metal pipe seems to barely affect him. Maybe this was intentional in order to let the audience come to their own conclusion.

N3cr0n0mIV
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

N3cr0n0mIVOctober 19, 2012

Also I recall reading an interview somewhere online, where Ridley Scott acknowledged that Aliens is canon with his own film.

thegoodtimesguru
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

thegoodtimesguruOctober 19, 2012

@ N3cr0n0mIV, Have a link?

cuponator3000
Group: Member
Rank: Chestburster
View Profile

cuponator3000November 04, 2012

aloen movies 1-4 are canon and the avps arent canon to anything. predatyor is seperate from alien. period.i secind genjitsu17's avp 3 thing. but it would probably be screwed up if they tried. also, i thought of the funniest thing, i was watching prometheus and the part where the group of people go to look for fifield and milburn, there is a shot of shaw looking around and there is a red light that looks like a predators beam as if u were looking at the mechanism on his shoulder. imagine if that turned out to be something lol

Not a map, an invitation

joeyjoe
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

joeyjoeNovember 05, 2012

@playbite: while watching the blu ray, i never heard ridley say anything like what you stated he said in his D.C. (unless i am misunderstanding what it is you are trying to say). @cuponator: the little red lights are from the crew members suits/gear etc. Without doubt...no predators in this film.

skittles6969
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

skittles6969November 07, 2012

As mentioned earlier in this thread, but overlooked, there is no record that Charles Bishop Weyland is Peter Weylands father. Could CB be his uncle instead? In avp Cb has no children does he? Maybe Peter Weyland lands some inheritance and creates his own corporation. Maybe his uncle and father are twins. That would open up some flashback doors with Peter and his father, and bring Lance Henrikson into the prometheous timeline, and another paycheck. LOL! Hands up if thats just made you moan! LOL!

CBT1979
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

CBT1979November 07, 2012

I think AVP would be good if it was sticking to the setting of the dark horse comics. 1. It should have taken place around the time of the Alien quadrology and not in the present time and definetly not on earth. 2. The first AVP was not gore enough for a movie that has Predators and Aliens. 3. While the Aliens exist in the Predator universe (Predator 2), I don't think that the Predators do in the ALIEN franchise.

katiel238
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

katiel238November 13, 2012

both Ridley scott and James Cameron refused to touch the AVP series. its like combining frankenstien and chuckie and then inventing some half arsed story to link the two universes. atleast with Prometheus and Aliens the conection is consistant and if AVP was part of this universe the it would be Charles Weyland leading the expedition instead of Peter and charles cant be his father because he was a self taught engineer, it was peter weyland who founded the company. the first AVP happened in 2004 before Weylan industries was founded in 2012. because there are so many inconsitancies i think that it is not canon but a seperate series that borrows ideas off the Aliens franchise.

cuponator3000
Group: Member
Rank: Chestburster
View Profile

cuponator3000December 03, 2012

the thread called, Aliens: Colonial Marines to Prometheus? is revealing. my comments are worth looking at

Not a map, an invitation

ThatSM
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

ThatSMJanuary 21, 2013

[quote]Were they (hill and giler) really involved with the project at all or did they just lend the production rights?[/quote] The last film Giler, Hill and Carroll had anything to do with was Alien3. And by that point it seems Brandywine had ceased to exist in any meaningful way. The film was originally credited as 'A Phoenix Company/ Gordon Carroll Production'. They've got some sort of contract where Alien related stuff ends up with their names on.

Anunnaki50
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

Anunnaki50May 07, 2013

NERDS!!!!!!!

The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno

Custodian
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

CustodianMay 13, 2013

Cypher, I suspect you'll enjoy my new "if David Cronenberg had made Aliens" thread. :)

2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

mixZ
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

mixZJuly 29, 2013

i liked the story of avp

Ripley Clone 8
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

Ripley Clone 8September 24, 2013

Here's how I see it and Ridley Scott has said this multiple times. Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection and Prometheus are Alien films. ALONE. They have NOTHING to do with Predator or any other lifeform or person. If thats the case and those films are based either on the origin of the Aliens or the Aliens themselves than Those 5 films ALONE are the Alien films and nothing else. Those 5 films are what make up the "Alien" franchise because they are soley based either on the origin of the Alien species/space jockey like Prometheus or they are based ONLY on the Alien themselves NOT anything out of that realm like the Predator films. The Predator franchise is its own thing because it is based solely on the Predators. Predator, Predator 2 and Predators make up the Predator franchise. I know there was an Alien skull in Predator 2 but that was NOT the focus of the film. The Predator itself was. The AVP films are based in a universe where BOTH the Aliens and the Predators clash. That story is its OWN universe because it focuses on A story that makes both species in a war. It has nothing to do with Ripley, It doesn't focus JUST on the Aliens so its not an ALIEN film. Its an AVP film. And Alien vs. Predator and Aliens vs. Predator Requiem are in their own universe.

http://i.imgur.com/vbAPQY6.gif

Necronom 4
Group: Member
Rank: Neomorph
View Profile

Necronom 4November 07, 2013

@Gavin aka Snorkelbottom; You said and quote "@ necronom 4... - Ask Ridley - he doesn't own any rights, he is just a director, - Ask Dan O'Bannon - firstly, he's dead and secondly, he even suggested an idea that Predator was another stage of the Aliens lifecycle. - Ask "the bloke who created Predator" - Don't you mean blokes, as in plural... Jim & John Thomas. If Dan O Bannon said that i'll eat my socks and I don't wash them very often, so that's how serious I am!

The poster was good though!

The1PerfectOrganism
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

The1PerfectOrganismNovember 11, 2013

"Here's how I see it and Ridley Scott has said this multiple times. Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, Alien Resurrection and Prometheus are Alien films. ALONE. They have NOTHING to do with Predator or any other lifeform or person. If thats the case and those films are based either on the origin of the Aliens or the Aliens themselves than Those 5 films ALONE are the Alien films and nothing else. Those 5 films are what make up the "Alien" franchise because they are soley based either on the origin of the Alien species/space jockey like Prometheus or they are based ONLY on the Alien themselves NOT anything out of that realm like the Predator films. The Predator franchise is its own thing because it is based solely on the Predators. Predator, Predator 2 and Predators make up the Predator franchise. I know there was an Alien skull in Predator 2 but that was NOT the focus of the film. The Predator itself was. The AVP films are based in a universe where BOTH the Aliens and the Predators clash. That story is its OWN universe because it focuses on A story that makes both species in a war. It has nothing to do with Ripley, It doesn't focus JUST on the Aliens so its not an ALIEN film. Its an AVP film. And Alien vs. Predator and Aliens vs. Predator Requiem are in their own universe." This is correct although I may add that the AVP films are terrible, and therefore is not the "real" AVP the real AVP was, was the comics and books but they are beyond convoluted to the point of no-return. And so it is up to the AVP comic reboot to step up to the plate and make a good AVP-Verse.

Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

BigDave
Group: Member
Rank: Deacon
View Profile

BigDaveNovember 11, 2013

Its like i have said before, i had nothing against a AVP being Canon... If it was done right and by that the events of the movie should had been set after the events of at least Alien 3 and maybe Alien Resurrection. Pretty much the same as the AVP PC Games. If they rebooted it, then it could work..... I would like to think the current AVP franchise is more Canon to Predator and Predator 2 and Predators than Alien and Aliens etc. Purely down to Timeline of Events...

R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ghosty
Veteran Member
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

GhostyNovember 18, 2013

What we all need to realize here is that our opinions on the matter, whether we want the two franchises to be in the same universe or not is that, undeniably, they are. Even if AvP and AvP:R were both under par films for the legendary franchises, it and books, comics and games have happened and put both species together in the same canon. To refute against this by saying they are just 'what if' scenarios is to say that the movies, comics, games and etc. do not exist. They do and whether you like it or not that fact will not change.

At the first light of this Unrelenting Dawn, all will see the world for it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s entirety, not just it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s shadows.

Lone
Group: Member
Rank: Praetorian
View Profile

LoneNovember 19, 2013

I certainly don't have the definitive answer as to what is canon! When I first heard about AVP I was really excited and looked forward to the merger. After seeing AVP I left the cinema totally deflated and disappointed, what a wasted opportunity!

I won't even bother to comment on Requiem!! *shudders*

What I do know is this; had the AVP movies been as good as ALIEN or Predator then we would all happily include or accept them as such. It's because they fell so short of the mark that most of us are totally reluctant to even consider them as canon! AVP reboot anyone? David Cronenberg at the helm?

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

Engineer Tech Brett
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

Engineer Tech BrettNovember 21, 2013

Hahahaha, just read this thread over again. Good to see its still going.

Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.

Xenotaris
Group: Member
Rank: Praetorian
View Profile

XenotarisNovember 26, 2013

Ok I think I heard that the reason why Prometheus (back when it was called the untitled alien prequel) They wanted to reboot the Alien franchise but they wanted Ridley at the helm. Also since Ridley Scott is one of the surviving co-creator of Aliens, I think his Word-of-God statements have more weight than anything that low born director/writier/Producer Paul Willy Surfing Anderson says. I happened to agree 100% of what ETB says and Dave1, AVP is not canonical for various reasons. The Timelines contradict eachother No mention of Predators by word or visual reference in the Pure Alien series ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also we have to look at both the Engineers and the Predator origins: Engineers created life on our planet with Black Goo, its not a streatch to believe that Xenomorphs are from this substance too as seen with the Deacon, Mutant Fitfiled, Trilobite, and Hammerpede. The Engineers were also on the planet earth (longer than the predators) when humans were beginning civilization (possibly the Engineers helped kick start or simply guided humanity like what gods would). Ok now the predator side of the debate, Predators somehow have the ability to make xenomorphs and spread them across the galaxy without a single care in the universe. They Teach humans to build on an Antarctica. oh Antarctica was once free ice! (Although that might of been true, but the true reason why antarctica is frozen is beacuse its position on the globe and the surrounding cold water currents. The true non frozen Antarctica was still attached to Austrailia which was millions of years ago before humans ever appeared on the planet earth!) Predators teaching another sapient being civilization seems out of character for Predators. Seems like a waste of time to teach a minor race how to build then kill them off with the xenomorphs which if we make AVP canonicly with the ALIEN/PROMETHUS universe means the predators stole them and then being uncharactily stupid and plant xenomorphs on an Engineer controlled world Which begs the question why would they seed a planet that has Engineers on it! If we take A:CM's engineer scene as canon, we would assume that the "good" engineers would not stand idle by while another Alien race uses xenomorphs (possible made by the Bad Engineers) in their backyard! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prometheus is a first in a trilogy of Alien Prequel movie, so until (which I doubt) that a Predator appears or was mentioned in any shape or form in Paradise or the Final Prequel. AVP is still not Canonical, not to mention that AVP actively contradicts Both respected franchises: Predator vision has wrong color schemes, Predators hunting in the snow as opposed to hunting in hot areas like Jungles or Urban areas, Xenomorphs looking like A:R era genetic Xenos (just painted a dark blue),

S.M
Group: Member
Rank: Xenomorph
View Profile

S.MSeptember 25, 2016

State of the canon:

Prometheus

Covenant

Alien

Alien Isolation

Defiance

Out Of The Shadows

Aliens

River of Pain

Fire & Stone (Aliens)

Alien3

Fire & Stone (Prometheus, AvP, Predator, Omega)

Life & Death

Alien Resurrection

Weyland-Yutani Report

Sea of Sorrows

The Rage War

Gavin
Group: Member
Rank: Trilobite
View Profile

GavinSeptember 26, 2016

@ S.M.

Surely if, as you state, Fire and Stone are canon to the Alien universe then by extension so too would be the three Predator movies and the two AVP movies, seeing as they too feature the Predator creature. But didn't Ridley retcon AVP's Charles Bishop Weyland out of the continuity with having Peter Weyland found Weyland Industries. Thus anything that attempts to include Predators in the same universe would not be canon, yes?

The fact that the comic books have to be retconned every time a new movie comes out would surely negate their inclusion as canon.

If the W-Y report is considered canon why not is the Colonial Marines Technical Manual.

Surely when it comes down to the bare bones of it all the only true canon is just the movies - Prometheus, Alien Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection?

Patient Leech
Group: Member
Rank: Facehugger
View Profile

Patient LeechSeptember 26, 2016

Originally posted by genjitsu17:

...I dunno, just seems stupid to also have 2 simultaneous ancient alien stories going on. Having the Engineers and the Predators both visiting humans would have caused some trouble, i think. Just my opinion.

This. That's pretty much what I thought when I rewatched AVP a couple months ago. I think that's enough to establish AVP as non-canon.

S.M
Group: Member
Rank: Xenomorph
View Profile

S.MSeptember 26, 2016

"Surely if, as you state, Fire and Stone are canon to the Alien universe then by extension so too would be the three Predator movies and the two AVP movies, seeing as they too feature the Predator creature. But didn't Ridley retcon AVP's Charles Bishop Weyland out of the continuity with having Peter Weyland found Weyland Industries. Thus anything that attempts to include Predators in the same universe would not be canon, yes?"

Not sure of the canonicity of the AvP films (and Predator) at this point.

"The fact that the comic books have to be retconned every time a new movie comes out would surely negate their inclusion as canon."

The current comics and novels have tried as much as possible not to tread on things covered by Covenant, so as to not create a situation where they'll need to be retconned. That said, things touted as canon can always be untouted (like Colonial Marines).

"If the W-Y report is considered canon why not is the Colonial Marines Technical Manual."

Not sure. Possibly because a lot of the events detailed in the final chapter are apocryphal. Most of the technical data in the CMTM remains canon however.

woody599
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

woody599October 20, 2016

woody599 ere,

hmm its exciting times!

woody599

oliver.alien
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

oliver.alienJanuary 16, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7Y_Tjohrfo&t=59s

Good video! I recommend! Top 10 Alien Movie moments!

LongLiveNewt
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

LongLiveNewtMarch 18, 2017

The only films I personally consider canon are: Prometheus-Covenant-Alien-Aliens, the rest are stand-alone fanfic efforts as far as I'm concerned, especially all the garbage Predator/AvP tie in stuff (though the comics aren't bad).

In place of all that, I consider the first Dark Horse Aliens series/Steve Perry's "Earth Hive", "Nightmare Asylum" and "Female War" to be the true conclusion of the Ripley/Newt (Billie)/Hix (Wilks) story, because they are actually really good - unlike the abominations that are Alien 3 & 4.

IndyFront
Group: Member
Rank: Facehugger
View Profile

IndyFrontJune 21, 2017

@Long-Live-newt: Agreed. I chalk it up to closely-guarded W-Y/state secrets involving controversial experimentation involving MK-Ultra-esq technology (but on steroids).

mnnnn
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

mnnnnJuly 30, 2018

I wonder what Paul Anderson say about Prometheus?

since I know there is a way could play blue ray on PC, I just want to have a try.

leibek
Group: Member
Rank: Ovomorph
View Profile

leibekNovember 28, 2022

prometheus is a important movie .he tell us about the origins of the aliens franchise.thus engineers who become evil and threaten humanity .we have to be aware from alien civilisations that want to make a contact with us... they are not all a friendly..

Are you an avid Alien fan looking for a dedicated online community of likeminded fans? Look no further! Create your own profile today and take part in our forums and gain XP points for all the content you post!

Other discussions started by Gavin

Latest Alien Media