A Queen Engineer?

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCca5mPMp9A&feature=youtu.be]Toto[/url]

Anything is possible, really.

Interesting concept. I totally wouldnt mind seeing some female/queen Engineers. I think we almost have to assume that as a species the Engineers have 2 sexes because they gave rise to us, so there must be females. My guess is that they do, but their social/cultural structure is much different, perhaps with even more intense factions than there are amongst us (they ARE supposed to be violent f#ckers, afterall)... I'm just so tired of speculating, and want a novelization or something to help steer us in the right direction, heh.. and we still have a long wait before part 2.. *facepalm*

I really wouldn't think Ridley would go down that Creepy Crawly route. God i hope not anyway!... Although i do think he should take more inspiration from H R Giger's Necronomicon for the Sequel. Novelization Now!

*facepalm*

Yeah, I agree that there is so much speculation out there and few facts, so almost anything is possible. Of course, that's what makes it so much fun, though I have to confess I'm in Japan and just saw the movie last weekend for the first time, so all this speculation is still new to me. Gotta wonder if Ridley and the other authors are gonna use some of the ideas they get from all these feeds for part 2! If so, let's speculate away!

@tjvanhawk. Probably not a good idea. We all know which monstrosity of a Film came out of Fanboys imaginations, don't we? Yes....AvP!

@ david: facepalm seconded.

I'm a little confused as to all the facepalming.. Am i being mocked? Anyway, yeah, speculation can be fun. My only concern is that i've heard some really good ideas and i might get upset if they dont use them, heh. And i doubt they gather ideas from us here because they probably established an outline for the entire 3 films before filming even began. So i'm more interested in dicsussing what we HAVE rather than trying to guess where they are going with it.

Killer Queen - gunpowder, guillotine: dynamite - with a laser beam. La-de-da, de-da, de-da..... Anytime.

Clad: nice touch Sir, nice touch. Joeyjoe: We should ask Chris to make a Gif for facepalm material.

In the old movies we never see what happens at the very start of a life-cycle... We never see what happens to get the first Queen and eggs going. We never see the old order. It's like the chicken and the egg question. We don't know exactly what happens when there are no eggs or no Queen present. Humans either weren't there to witness ("Aliens" doesn't show the full outbreak), the genetics are already following the egg method when we arrive, or we don't get to see exactly how the hive/eggs arise. We have some hints in the original that when alone the xeno genetics may be able to reproduce and morph in different ways (the morphing cycle) to attempt to form a hive and offspring. This may be a parallel with the Engineers. These may be remnants/examples of a different pre-queen order of reproduction. There was definitely some morphing going on in Prometheus but it was a more direct form of morphing without eggs. And we never saw the full Deacon go on to morph anything yet, but I strongly believe the black liquid has even enhanced its ability to breakdown and reorganize things. It may turn out that we never actually saw the entire life-cycle in the previous movies: we never saw exactly what precedes the Queen as a Queen grows and starts her life-cycle (minus AVP:R where eggs were already present and Queen genetics were ruling). A queen may need some protection, just as a king might need followers/protectors. That's where Deacons and Drones/Warriors come in. Sorry to bring up the bug thing, although Ridley did originally base part of the creature on insect reproduction methods. I propose what happens with the sexes in Aliens is more like what goes on with Preying Mantises... "A king has his reign and then he dies... it's inevitable..." Before we see the Engineer Queens, and a true alien Queen, we will first need to see what will come to be called a King Alien on film…. But he inevitably dies as the queen gets her offspring and chance to rule. He’s gone before the egg laying takes over the full morphing based life-cycle to create a more organized hive. The Alien king genetics takes over where the old dead Engineer king left off in changing/morphing the xeno genetics back to their pure form. I don't think the Deacon is a queen, but it's like a Queen or a king. A servant class that’s more dedicated to the rulers, almost in a religious way. A servant to the royal class that's different from regular Drones, and uses the morphing based cycle because of what the goo has done to it. It’s basically a servant/follower of the king and queen genetics that basically can't die (well it's very hard to kill unless you use fire on the remnants)... it regenerates and morphs. There may be a little bit more of that death/resurrection theme too. But when the King arises and finally dies, that's when chaos completely reigns for a little while. Then come the Queens, the female Engineer Elders who take the reigns back from the Engineer Kings and the Engineers. And the queen genetics/egg laying cycle that becomes dominant. There may be a few steps in the chaos between where other kings try to step up the throne before the Queen is produced. But here both sexes can reproduce on their own (which will be another parallel with the Engineers), only in different ways. The females are dominant and rip the head off the male after offspring are produced, what happens after ties into this too (this is hugely symbolic to many of the themes in Prometheus). By the time the Queen arises in the genetics and has its offspring, the king genetics are already dead. That's why we've never seen one before. "A king has his reign and then he dies... it's inevitable...” By the time we see the Queen the King is already dead and his reign has ended. However the male genetics are still within the eggs, but now the female genetics are at the forefront and dominant, making the egg laying take over. Making the hive follow a more logical and more effective way of reproducing. Leaving them the ability to morph/reproduce at the start of a life-cycle under the right conditions, and when a Queen isn't present. The genetics till retaining the Queen side of things, however and victims are morphed into eggs instead of into some sort of monster directly. Because whatever becomes the queen and lays eggs could be almost carrying both sides of the sex traits that allow them to reproduce. Why call them Queens if there's no sexual differentiation in mind, or full hermaphrodites going on. No the only males pop into the lower classes at this time… Only the female side is aloud to control things and thus we've always seen alien Queens so far. The Engineers are the opposite of this.... So far we've only seen male Engineers in charge and Engineer kings/Elders in the behind the scenes stuff. Eventually a Queen arises and takes her rightful place on the thrones, replaces the kings, and runs a less chaotic/violent/dangerous form of hive/kingdom building. To start the main egg laying life-cycle in the Queen alien’s case.

ugh why doesn't it let me edit sometimes? *In the original Alien the genetics are retaining the Queen's side of things as dominant, and victims are morphed into eggs instead of into some sort of monster directly. Like Fifield was by the genetics in the black liquid. It's all about morphing and breaking down/disintegrating and mutating entities to create new life, or a new order. As the King genetics may do to get things started even faster, in a more chaotic way. Before the Queen genetics take over. We don't know exactly how the male Engineers reproduce, but we have good reason to assume they're clones of each other, like we sort of are of them. Did they always reproduce this way? If they're us, was there originally sexual differentiation? Are they slightly hermaphroditic and do they contain both parts of the sexes in some way? ( Some of the early Engineer concepts support this) What came before their current method of reproduction if the sacrificial Engineer has been made to be like a seed that can produce more? I really believe we will see Engineer Queens and an Alien King eventually...

"I really believe we will see Engineer Queens and an Alien King eventually..." (mala'kak) god no.

ALIEN KING?????????? ENGINEER QUEENS???????????? WHAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT??????????????????????????????????

You can't see exactly how it ties into all the new themes they're creating yet, and much of the old ones. That's ok for now, I know people who were a part of planning it on Fox's end. People who have only told me so much. I could be wrong on some points, but I don't feel/think that I am I have to leave much out. I want it to be slightly unbelievable for now. The shock factor will be greater later when see a massively tentacled Alien King. Big things have small beginnings, but the king will inevitably die. It's how the new life-cycle will work for the aliens... Ridley wasn't planning on treading old ground from here on out. It's about new ideas and injecting new ideas into the old order (even though it's loosely inspired by the same comic that is really responsible for making the Engineers/Space Jockey's smaller, it wasn't only a scale thing, one comic in particular has inspired much to come) Although there will continue to be a lot more familiar things. This franchise is more like a parallel story, as Lindelof said, explaining what goes on without the presence of a queen or eggs, and between movies. Prometheus started this, and the genetics went back to the morphing based cycle because they had been diluted in the black liquid... hybridized with it. So maybe the King will only arise from the dead engineers in this instance, because of a greater reliance on morphing, but because of the thematic framework it's where this is all leading before the queen and eggs come back in. It's almost better for people to not be on this train of thought right now, not seeing how it ties into the king/kingdom theme Prometheus has created, the themes in the greater series, the androids and engineers etc. Maybe i have been saying too much too soon. Paradise is all about reversals and things most of us don't see coming. And might be more effective that way. I'm starting to think that from all my inside sources that are springing up from my one main source and the things i've figured out on my own, that I'm gonna know everything that happens in Prometheus before they even show us too much in the trailers. So I've taken to doing what David does in the movie. I purposely leave stuff out, don't reveal certain things, and add my own artificial feelings into my statements, which are true, but can sometimes be taken in more than one way, hiding even more of what I'm explaining. Because I let my feelings/theories and hidden knowledge base guide my analysis you'll never know how much I'm truly reporting and how much is my own theory/extrapolations based on what I know/feel. I also feel almost a sense of guilt like David. I can't ruin the movie entirely years before it comes out. But I've started now because the blu-ray and the deleted scene title "Paradise" will change our perspectives slightly long before the sequel and relaunching. That's why we cant trust David, he almost has feelings. And most of the time science should stay separate from feelings/beliefs when making observations or conclusions. He also lies and tells the truth at the same time by being ambiguous like the movie is, and refers to multiple things at the same time to get away with it. A prequel and not a prequel. Sort of a hybrid. Straight-forward in the basic plot and murky at the same time. All David's lines are meant to be taken in multiple ways after we get more context.

double post

For all intents and purposes the Deacon could be the progenitor of a young King instead of a Queen. A class that is based on the morphing cycle.. and acts much like the goo does. We may see Praetorians later around the time the king dies when the hive it starts to build becomes more organized, and a new ruler steps up. The reason I compared this part of the life-cycle to preying mantises is because the female cuts off the head of the king, and feeds the king to the offspring he just gave her. Very much tied into the decapitation and knocking the king off the throne theme started in Prometheus. When a king dies a new ruler will step up and the kingdom/hive will inevitably change. It ties into all the repeating themes in Prometheus too. Civilizations/ companies also go on to change and reform after the head dies, when new leadership is allowed to reign.

It's a male patriarchy and irresponsibility of the people in control thing/ formation of multinational corporations/ empires too. Common in Ridley's films. But here it's about the change in management that ineviatbly happens and how that affects things/how future groups are corrupted, or changed by the power that comes along with ruling. It's also about the reverse. The breakdown on Empires and kingdoms, to go on to form new kingdoms, new civilizations and cultures from the remnants of the old order, when recombined with new elements. It's about freedom and control. chaos and order. logic and irrationality. science and religion. Knowledge and belief.. All tying into the formation of the Weyland-Yutani corporation, a new form of order for the old system. More like an empire than a kingdom, and in the xeno's case after the king dies, the queen genetics are capable of starting new hives easier with the female reproductive method. The king genetics are just faster and more chaotic and quickly starts the hive faster before a stable Queen is produced. But not necessarily more efficient.

Haha. Bloody nora. First the Alien is compaired to a Bug and now an Engineer being compaired to a Bug. What next? David8 is actually half Bug, half Toaster Oven? I think the Giant Alien Bug thingy has been done to death! No more, please!

They might not call it a king yet until it reproduces and serves/protects to spread the message/genetics of the first King... The king might also have a name that associates it with being a regent instead of just being called the king alien. Even tho that's what it'll be

I wasn't directly comparing the Engineers to a bug. I was comparing them to the elements of the goo, the xeno genetics which were always originally, partially based on a type of insect. As well as being a mixture of other weird traits from creatures we already know about and probably characteristics from others that we don't. The overall purpose of the goo is much like what happens to civilizations and cultures over time, as new leaders go by. And it's much like the egg morphing when you think about it. Look at the trilobite and the Deacon they have some aquatic like traits that we might see in our ancestral oceans... Hence the name Trilobite. They're basing everything off of a lot of things. Sometimes combining things in new ways. In this case I'm only saying the female/male dominance is like a Preying Mantis, because most people know how that works, and might be able to see it applying to all the decapitated/detached heads thematically.. I really think it's more about male patriarchy that continues to exist to this day. Although things are changing. With the Aliens and Engineers it could be the females that become empowered and take charge, tying it even more into what's going on in the Alien series and actually building on the female empowerment themes ppl say are hidden below the surface in Alien. The King is too chaotic and even though he is almost undying in the hybrid goo-alien's case, this chaotic nature it it's weakness, and why control of the hive has to be given to the Queen for her turn on the throne.

How 'bout some "praetorians", too? :D

@Mala'kak. I love your enthusiasm. But i really don't see the Engineers having an Insects biology, in terms of reproduction? When they share the same DNA has Humans. Basing Aliens on Insects as been played out, time and time again throughout Sci Fi history. It's time for Fresh Ideas and i think that is what Ridley is trying to achieve with Prometheus as he did with Alien.

@leech: All the facepalming is basically from members who have seen hundreds of posts with tons of random theories (like mine) and are basically just sick of them. I can understand, but still glad some are still willing to kick a few more theories around ... Probably the strongest point against the Engineer Queen is the fact that they share our DNA, so how could they possibly reproduce so differently? Agreed, but then how does one explain the massive height difference, black eyes... The simple explanation is that the engineer DNA isn't exactly the same as ours (how could it be, anyways, considering all the variation in human DNA, who are they comparing to?). When Shaw says it's a match, she probably just meant that there are long stretches of DNA sequence that are human and that couldn't possibly happen by chance.

@Mala'kak: I like the beheading thing (which would tie into leech's head theory nicely), though I don't know how far we can take the bug analogy out. We haven't seen a king of any species period, so no reason to believe one exists. Queens on the other hand... ;)

I for one have nothing against theories. Everyone is entitled to theirs, and that includes the nurturing and feeding of said thread throughout it's life. Yes some of the members have seen or heard or speculated about a theory and have grown tiresome of repeated attempts to bring said theory to life, with a logic, and hope into a agreeable environment within the forum. I have been witness to many of said theories and wish each of them the best of luck in their struggle to survive the sometimes harsh environment of the forum threads, but one must realize that life on the Internet is one fought with danger and speculation at it's center of existence. Long live the Spice... "The Spice must flow," and all Internet life forms should be allowed to mature to sizable status before submitting to the knives of the critics for it's very meat and skin and bones.

The internet, red in tooth and claw... =)

@ Necronom4 With the engineers it's the reverse and more about the change in management, than about the actual genetics taking over and a reproductive method change. I'm saying the opposite happened to them, but the females need to come back into power. The males don't know that they need them to achieve a balance, or that there still could be a culture of them out there. Well the Engineers probably don't know, maybe the Elders do if things go a certain way. But I'll admit I'm not too sure they'll dive too deep into Engineer Queens. We might only meet a few the Elders kept around. The king stuff tho... and so from there I'm extrapolating a bit really expecting to see some engineer queens as a sort of mirror of what else is going on. It's more like a thematic link to the idea of them eventually coming to rule over the females in the ancient past, the reverse of the alien king-queen idea, breaking away from them at one point and finding new ways to reproduce. Which were used on Earth before we were created and naturally reverted to two sexes because they had engineered themselves to contain both sexes before producing us. Even our earliest cultures were mainly matriarchal in nature and some of the bigger ones almost reaching full civilization status were ruled by Queens originally. I'm a male and even I would say we've messed a few things up because of the nature of some of our past male leaders once everything switches to patriarchy and onwards. That's why one of my favorite bands/band names is Queens of the Stone Age. Certain groups that have risen to power did nothing but hold women back for so long. Now things have become more fair. But even in the last 100 years women were still held back. That way it's the reverse of what I was describing with the aliens. Female-leaning hermaphrodites were originally in power, as were the Elders for a time. But it will be heavily implied that things would be better if the Elders and the more female leaning hermaphrodites were in charge. And so I'm thinking they may actually come back in charge. Not that the reproductive cycle is actually like an insect's life-cycle, more tying into themes about patriarchy. Weyland's preference for a "son", even tho he had a daughter who wanted to take over the company. This "son" may also think/feel he has the right to lead as a superior species to humanity, and has been practicing to be a leader. Painting himself a certain way. There may have once been a time for them when the females were in charge, and they're now all pretty much non-existent. Leaving the kings to do as they please for a while. It's been a long while though and divisions have happened, male sub-groups have become more warlike, and they weaponized the fire to overthrow the Elders and attempt to use us in their war against the kings and fathers. To return to power the Elder Queens may need to settle their differences with the Elders. In order to help the Elders regain control of the Engineers who broke away from them and have been in a war with the Elders ever since. But the Engineers only have to be controlled and redirected. There's an even greater threat. Prometheus was just the small beginning to David's big plan and even bigger things. David is acting like the title character in Lawrence of Arabia and quotes the movie many times. It's not only his fav movie. He's emulating it. In the movie Lawrence sets out to learn all the ways and languages of the groups he'll be dealing with. David has a plan in mind much greater than what Weyland had planned. He learned much more than we're led to believe when he deconstructed, cross-analyzed and recombined the ancient languages. No doubt learning a few things from recombining all the myths and ancient writings into a working Engineer language. David may just attempt to unite multiple minor groups against a bigger threat, like in Lawrence of Arabia. Much like in Lawrence of Arabia. Prometheus was all David's trick and he didn't mind that it hurt. He's found a way to not show his true feelings and to be able to tell only partial truths (he's unable to tell a complete lie like Pinnochio) , which makes him give away some of his true meaning behind double meanings. David wants to rule... there's a reason he felt that his father should die, That the king should be knocked off the throne. It's too long to post right here. The gist is he's the closest thing to a prince, and Vickers is dead now. Feels slightly superior to humans. However, David has feelings that are misguiding him, and will cause him to be semi-chaotic like Weyland. Inevitability he'll be replaced. Even with his mechanical immortality/endurance, he'll rust and die, be destroyed some way, or come to be replaced. Despite this he helps unite those groups against an even bigger enemy, an empire. After the head/king is reattached to the body of the company/kingdom and the kingdom undergoes changes under the new leadership. Starts to breakdown, but is recombined and changes shape. Morphing into the monstrous entity we know from the other films. As David helps reshape the crumbling Weyland kingdom into Weyland-Yutani Empire and becomes a king in his own right for a short time. Launching a hidden war only he knows of so far that will continue between the original movies, behind the scenes.

@ Mala'kak. You should write a Sci Fi Novel. I'm being serious...Some good idea's there! One thing that struck me about the Engineer, at the Opening Scene was that he didn't have any Nipples (stop giggling). So they are not Mammals? Or is that the way they have evolved? I personally believe that, they reproduce by Seeding new life, on other planets, through the disintegration of themselves! They are neither Male or Female. Or maybe they are both? They are grown in labs by their Android masters? Grown and made like Replicants..Thats my theory.