Xeno Orgins... Not simply a Chicken or Egg Debate.

Deacon as the new visual for the Alien maybe Deacon is the new rendition of the Alien. I will not call it "xeno" because that's J. Cameron's throw at it. The thing is, from my own perspective, a natural process of the original artist's visual improvement. And even if one has to forcibly connect dots, the Alien might pre-date Deacon and might not as well. If indeed what we see in Prometheus is a new rendition of the Alien creature; i.e. Alien and Deacon are one and the same, only re-imagined; the "Chicken and Egg" scenario becomes irrelevant. I still have the feeling that Ridley had zero intentions on showing the Deacon/Alien coming out of an Engineer. That was already hinted on the 1979's Alien movie. I believe that Sir Ridley was forced to do it. "Hints" work pretty well even if the Deacon/Alien wasn't shown in the end of Prometheus; there was already one such Hint in one of the Murals [the "cruxified" Alien/Deacon]. I can only imagine the kind of pressure involved during the movie to include the deacon at the end. And the full blown Cuddles as well. That is, at least how I see it.

I doubt that the artists who made Alien considered that this or any other question posed in the film would still be on the table 30 years later. They just created a strange and mysterious premise. Now they're trying to deal with them to everyone's satisfaction, which is just impossible.    There was the egg image in the advertising, and they definitely look like eggs, but they don't necessarily operate like eggs, but more like a living container, which  is far more disturbing, IMO. Cameron's adaption of the story worked largely because few people knew about the deleted scene with Dallas and Brett being transformed, which is more to my taste than a Queen laying eggs, though I do see the value of the Queen concept from a story propulsion point of view. Could the urns be mechanized embryos? Why not? We don't know that they're metal, and the liquid escaping and bathing the sides could be the first step in the process. Perhaps this would also account for the different sizes of urns, either they got smaller as the tech was refined, or they are meant for different species. Or indeed the urns are a refinement of the egg. I agree with David 1 that the life cycle at the end was not originally intended, and that maybe other issues were the result if meddling as well. that said, I enjoyed the new creatures.

@David 1 So you think that maybe Ridley is going for the concept of either. 1) Reboot the Franchise in that the Deacon is a reboot of the Xeno Organism. 2) That he is going for the idea that the Deacon leads to the Xeno somehow but then that after Alien... the Xeno ideas from Aliens will be none canon. I dont think Ridley would go the route of linking the Deacon with Alien Xeno and then trying to then pull of that Aliens is not canon and never happened. The clues as i interpret them all seem to point to [b]Option C[/b] Ridley hinted that the Derelict was on LV 426 for thousands of years, he latter revised that by saying the events that led to the Derelict on LV 426 occurred a few hundred years prior to the events of the downfall of the Engineers on LV 223. Which means the Derelict is hinted to had been on LV 426 over 2000 years prior to Prometheus. We can only assume that LV 223 has no more Engineers or else why would the Last Engineer not awaken or warn any others who are around still. In order for the Deacon to give birth to the Eggs/Alien in Alien then one of the below have to occur. 1) The Deacon hops aboard a Juggernaut and becomes the Space Jockey. 2) David or Shaw becomes the Space Jockey somehow. 3) Some Engineers return to LV 223 and then set off with either Cargo of Eggs laid by the Deacon or the Deacon gets aboard the ship and infects a Engineer. 4) Humans land on LV 223 looking for what happened to Prometheus and one of the crew becomes the Space Jockey. But Ridley hinted that the Derelict had a Cargo of Eggs and was heading from LV 223 thousands of years ago but then one of the Cargo got lose and caused the Engineer to have to make a unscheduled emergency landing on LV 426. Thus this tells me the Xeno occurred prior to the Deacon. I then look at how the Engineer at the beginning of the movie seeds his DNA that then gives rise to mankind and maybe all other advanced life on Earth, hence why we share the DNA with him. But then why do we not share DNA or have Xeno traits and why does the lifeforms in contact with the Urns not dissolve into DNA but instead mutated/evolve into Organisms that have Xeno traits. This tells me that the substances in the Urns and the Sacrificial Bowl are not the same. I look at the original scene where the Bowl was then shown outside the Xeno Mural in a Sacrificial pose like Christ and then connect that to the Engineer and only similar thing i find is that as a result of the Bowl the Sacrificial Engineer DNA breaks down into a substance that maybe either evolves basic lifeforms into those that contain Engineer DNA or that it evolves from the Engineer DNA. And that the Urns contain a substance that mutates and evolves lifeforms to new organisms that have and contain Xeno traits and DNA. So i then think, well what if the Engineers DNA actually comes into contact with very basic forms of life and his DNA mutates these to then evolve into Humans and other lifeforms. But how is there a connection with the Urns and Engineer? My only conclusion is that it could be possible that instead of the Engineers DNA breaking down into the Water, could it not have been collected and stored into a Ampule? And if so could that substance then be dropped into Water elsewhere and see the same chain of Evolution that occurred in the opening scene that created us? Could it not then be possible that the same substance that Sacrificial Engineer had taken could also be used to break down the Xeno into DNA/Substance just like the Sacrefical Engineer DNA/Substance and this substance would alter lifeforms it comes into contact with. And that the Engineers stored the resulting substance inside the Urns? If we are let to beleave that the Engineers broken down genetic material via the Sacreficial Bowls contents creates a chemical that can alter lifeforms (at basic level) into more evolved lifeforms that carry Engineer DNA. Then is the sequence we see after the Waterfall scene (that mutates basic life to lifeforms with Engineer DNA) not really that dissimilar to that of when the stuff in the Urns comes into contact with lifeforms and evolves/mutates them to take on Xeno DNA? Maybe thats the connection with the Bowl (before was changed to green orb) being placed outside the Mural of a Xeno in Sacrificial pose? Why....? Well if the Xeno was a Weapon, we know it is very dangerous and hard to control and contain, see what happened to the Engineer on LV 426, the Humans on LV 426 and the result of many failed attempts by mankind to latter capture and rear the Xeno to harness as a Bio Weapon. Surely breaking down the Xenos DNA in same fashion as Sacrificial Engineer did, to create a substance that can then be stored and contained more easier and that has more simple and easier way of deploying with similar effects to created deadly Bio Weapons. Is that not a better way of Weaponizing the Xeno, is that not a Evolution of the Weapon? All evidence seems to point to similar process to that, than the Deacon being the Proto Xeno or that the Black Goo creates the Xeno like it did Hammerpede and Deacon.

Totally agree with your last post BigDave. Xeno was 1st. Just seems obvious to me, if you pay attention. Deacon was the result of xeno DNA introduced into the human sexual cycle. Alien is the reverse. I also agree that what the engineer drank was different than the urn goo.

I'm sorry Big Dave I didn't answer your question! C gets my vote.

Big Dave I guess Sir Ridley just keeps is own view on the top of the line with the Industry pressing him and the whole "fanism and canonisnm" as well. And I truly believe that he really doesn't give a damn to what the Alien looked like in 1979 anymore. It's not a novelty for an Artist to reinvent his own concept. I usually give the Shninya Tsukamoto's example of his 3 "Tetsuo" movies, but you find it in almost every Artistic form, from movies to painting to architectural work etc. How many times did Giger paint and re-paint the Alien and the BioMechanoids and such? It's a contiunuous process of re-invention. So, yes I believe that Ridley was forced to come up with grown up Cuddles impregnating Bob to come up with Deacon for the Alien fanism and Industry money making enjoyment. I.e. I seriously believe that he is over with the Alien, as he himself stated, and wants to do a new thing with the SJ's, as he also stated. Unfortunately he is pressed by the Industry and the Alien fans to spoon fed them with the same old same old.

Hah, Tetsuo movies are c-ra-zy. Good point though, David 1.

Gen: yes C R A Z Y good. The same concept reinvented 2 times after the original one. If Cronemberg was Japanese, he would have done Tetsuo. lol

I prefer the last one. I think the black substance is some kind of mutagen based on the xeno DNA because it seems to mutate its host with xenomorph traits

The urn held 2 substances. The black goo. (a super fast working mutagen?) And the inner ampule held something else. (My money is on xeno DNA) Problems seemed to occur when the atmosphere was changed, mixing the 2 substances, and causing the urns to leak.

Yes David good points. Ridley did say he was fed up of the done to death Xeno, but then i found it bizarre that the movie then produced a Deacon Xeno. I felt if Ridley wanted to close the door on the Xeno then surely the events should have led to the Xeno, then we get the explanation and Ridley can shut the door on the Xeno and move onto the Engineers. But with the Deacon that leaves the door open for exploration of a new Organism, maybe one that would evolve to the reproductive cycle that Ridley would have wanted as opposed to the Alien Xeno evolved in Aliens to be part of a organism that has a Queen. Question is....? Was Ridley told to include such a creature to allow Fox to capitalise on in future? Or does Ridley want to create a Xeno Organism in the image and behavior that he always wanted? Either way there is a potential plot hole as far as links with Alien Universe unless somehow the Deacon does not get involved much and is wiped out without Mankind knowing, or that Weyland etc find it but cover it up. And Again exploring the Deacon in future movies well its not so far disimilar to the Orginal Xeno for someone who thinks the Xeno is done to death, its like the guys behind Jaws getting fed up of killer [b]Sharks[/b] and so makes more movies based on... killer [b]Killer Wales[/b]. I think what they have done is clever, and i dont think Ridley is all innocent in the project. You see at the basics, the movies shows some connection between the Engineers and the Xeno, and that a process of events concerning some experiments/bio weapons they are working on (The Urns) has the ability to via a series of events create a Organism that is very similar to the Xeno. There are not direct answers so that it cant be ruled out that this Deacon gives birth to the Xeno, or then no proof that it does. It simply shows a connection with Xeno DNA, this is a nod to prove that the Engineers via events and experiments they carry out not only played a hand in creation of Man, but they also had a hand in the Xeno. It means Ridley can concentrate on the Engineers and never answer what really was the Urns and Goo, what really went down on LV 426 or LV 223 and even what becomes of the Deacon. It leaves the door that can be shut on those, or opened up so Fox/Ridley due to demand could cover the Xeno or choose not to do so. Ridley could after he explores the Engineers, he could go and make a new Franchise based on the Deacon or reboot the franchise based on the Deacon and thus remake Alien. Or he could go explore the Engineers and when he is done, Fox has a door open to then explore the Deacon in another movie that has nothing to do with Ridley Scott.

Oh to further add... Prometheus could be not the plan Ridley had... it could be that he had a concept and idea behind the Space Jockey and that Prometheus was a way to slightly introduce the Engineers while the other half cover some ideas that should give us enough clues to figure out the Xeno connection. so that Prometheus 2 and 3 will be where Ridley gets to explore the Space Jockey and Engineer race and further himself from the Xeno. The thing is though the Spaights Draft was more connected to Alien, and it was when Lindelof sat down with Ridley that things started to distance away from the Xeno and be more about the Engineer and us and there part in our History as opposed to their part in the Xenos.

@genjitsu17 Yes indeed that appears to be the case, the Blacky Slime does seem to react with the inner substance maybe it prolongs the storage of the Xeno DNA element and also when mixed acts as a way to accelerate and multiply the Xeno DNA material. Yes it would seem the Urns are triggered by atmospheric changes, and mainly when the Human Crew took off their helmets. This answers the Space Jockey Suits.... you see the atmosphere inside the Temple and Juggernaut is breathable so why wear a Space Jockey suit? The Engineer did not wear one inside the temple/ship and he also managed to get to Shaw without one and thus survived the hostile atmosphere outside the ship. That leaves one reason for the Space Jockey suits and thats a Bio Suit that may protect the Engineers from the Goo, but more so it is like the crews Space suits in that when they are worn it stops their breathing process to effect the atmosphere of the room that then triggers the Urns. Thus i assume had the Engineers taken off the Space Jockey suits when they was handling or near the Urns then they would set them off like the crew did.

as far as im concerned, all evidence clearly points to [i]choice C[/i]. Original xeno/alien pre-dates the deacon. the deacon is just a variation of the species. I also think that the derelict that landed on lv 426 was carrying eggs as its original cargo. Finally, although i think the different urns have varying applications, im thinking that the weaponized urns could possibly be an updated (more efficient and more stable) delivery method for the bio weapon etc.

Big Dave: eheheh, man you always write a lot. lolol. I'm not sure how much of "circle closing" Sir Ridley is interested in. I mean, does it really matter? It seems to matter if one expects for some sort of closure with the Alien franchise. That is the Fans and Industry call on it. I'm hardly convinced that Sir ridley has any kind of interest other than tell the SJ's story. So, they did some genetical things that involves Aliens/Deacons. Ok. What else do they do? I believe that is the point Sir Ridley is more interested in. There is a lot he can do if the Industry and the Fans stop poking at what he wants to show this time around instead of doing his work just to please the acid for blood alien creature and alien pregnancies and whatnot. I guess we'll just have to whait and see. And meanwile have some fun trying to see where his work might lead. p.s.: as I said, this is my take on the man's work. A personal opinion.

I choose C. I like where your going with this bigdave. Major Noob "I doubt that the artists who made Alien considered that this or any other question posed in the film would still be on the table 30 years later. They just created a strange and mysterious premise. Now they're trying to deal with them to everyone's satisfaction, which is just impossible." Major Noob will you please post this in the canon debate/ambiguity debate if you hadn't already !!! Very valid point. INCREDIBLY valid point !!! Big Dave Don't think because I quoted the above I think this thread is useless and unnecessary.. Not in the slightest do I think so !!!! Thanks for this thread because the following is very important for further debates IMHO: 1.) Qoute: "So you think that maybe Ridley is going for the concept of either. 1) Reboot the Franchise in that the Deacon is a reboot of the Xeno Organism. 2) That he is going for the idea that the Deacon leads to the Xeno somehow but then that after Alien... the Xeno ideas from Aliens will be none canon. I dont think Ridley would go the route of linking the Deacon with Alien Xeno and then trying to then pull of that Aliens is not canon and never happened." I am not so sure anymore bigdave. Ridley is 74. Maybe he is saying this is what should have haPpened. Snorks was very clear about how almost everyone involved with giler felt about him (giler). (thanks for making that clear snorks) Ridley might have decided that he is getting old and wanted to put his stamp on things before it is tOo late which I feel would be great(putting his stamp on things !!!!!!). 2.) "he latter revised that " Ridley seems to contradict himself from time to time as we all do. Just saying that it is almost impossible to draw a final conclusion from what anybody(alien production crew) says (about alien) or so it seems to me as it pertains to what happened to the sj and derelict. 3.) Quote: "This tells me that the substances in the Urns and the Sacrificial Bowl are not the same." Have the same idea !!! 4.) Quote; "Sacrificial Engineer DNA breaks down into a substance that maybe either evolves basic lifeforms into those that contain Engineer DNA or that it evolves from the Engineer DNA" I believe that the engineer DNA very quickly causes humanoid lifeforms to be created In the space of months. They can evolve of off course but that the basic human genome is already there. 5.) Quote: "My only conclusion is that it could be possible that instead of the Engineers DNA breaking down into the Water, could it not have been collected and stored into a Ampule?" I agree. 6.) "Could it not then be possible that the same substance that Sacrificial Engineer had taken could also be used to break down the Xeno into DNA/Substance just like the Sacrefical Engineer DNA/Substance and this substance would alter lifeforms it comes into contact with." Agree 7.) "Then is the sequence we see after the Waterfall scene (that mutates basic life to lifeforms with Engineer DNA) not really that dissimilar to that of when the stuff in the Urns comes into contact with lifeforms and evolves/mutates them to take on Xeno DNA?" I agree . This is important in eastablishing what happened to the engineers om lv 223. 8.) "Well if the Xeno was a Weapon, we know it is very dangerous and hard to control and contain, see what happened to the Engineer on LV 426, the Humans on LV 426 and the result of many failed attempts by mankind to latter capture and rear the Xeno to harness as a Bio Weapon. Surely breaking down the Xenos DNA in same fashion as Sacrificial Engineer did, to create a substance that can then be stored and contained more easier and that has more simple and easier way of deploying with similar effects to created deadly Bio Weapons. Is that not a better way of Weaponizing the Xeno, is that not a Evolution of the Weapon?" Agree 100 percent !!! 9.) "Ridley could after he explores the Engineers, he could go and make a new Franchise based on the Deacon or reboot the franchise based on the Deacon and thus remake Alien." I certainly hope so that we can get rid of all this canon BS. Great thought bigdave. 10.) "maybe it prolongs the storage of the Xeno DNA element and also when mixed acts as a way to accelerate and multiply the Xeno DNA material." agreed !!!! I believe it is an amplification substance . 11.) I am beginning to wonder if my assertion that the biosuit is needed for breathing was the correct one. I think I am wrong there. The only thing I don t get is why was ford and Shaw coughing when the ampule room door was opened ? I Googled for gasses that makes you cough and found hydrogen sulphate gas as a possibility but its a bit on the poisonous side as in it would have killed the worms in the room. Would engineers be able to breathe in the ampule room with the doors closed ? I don't know. So maybe the sj would have been able to leave his Chair and get facehugged before crash landing on lv 426 ? Adapting my theories as I go. Big Dave Something has been bothering me for the longest time: when Shaw flees from the engineer at the end out of the jugg she gets blown out of the ship - am I right ? Then when she climbs up she is very far from the pyramid ? Why wasn't she getting out of the pyrimad instead ?

My comment in the thread 'from urns to eggs'. I think it aplies to this thread also. We don't know where the eggs came from yet. Ridley didn't explain it in prometheus, which i really thought he would have done. We don't yet have a clear picture of what and how! But, going off the deleted scene in Alien, where Brett and Dallas were being turned into eggs, i would say that the SJs cargo of eggs are humanoids, from another planet, that have been turned into the eggs we see in the derelict. I think, the SJ was on his way back from another planet, populated by humanoids, that the Engineers had created and that SJ had been despatched to that planet to round up the eggs. On his way back to LV 223 he becomes a victim of a face hugger. Maybe, what they are trying to do with the black stuff, is resurrect the demon lord (lucifer) and the more eggs there are, the more chance there is of resurrecting it (lucifer)? Eggs symbolize resurrection in religion and Ridley as stated that the engineers are "dark angels". They also symbolize the resurrection of Jeebus Christ.

@David 1 I agree that Ridley will be concentrating purely on the Engineers and who really are they, why did they create us and why did they then want us killed off. It could also touch upon if the Engineers are indeed the creators of indeed that they are also created. I do feel that Ridley would give some vague hints to the reason for the Xeno in Prometheus 2 or at very least by Prometheus 3, this does not mean we would see Xenos running around as i think Ridley will steer clear of doing such a thing. But i think at some point he will explain why they was created and the purpose or/and why the Urns was created and from what and for what purpose. The purpose of this thread is not to discuss future movies so much, but just from the clues given what everyone thinks is how and why the Xeno came to be, which could be a question we may have to wait a long time to be answered or even one that never will be answered. Which brings me to...... @necronom 4 Yes very bizarre idea and one Snorky kind of goes with, and one that while it seems very difficult method it cant be ruled out... especially if we ignore all movies after Alien and look at the deleted Scene in Alien. This would then hint to the Black Goo creates a Process that turns Organisms into Eggs and then the Engineers collect the Eggs and then use them as a Bio Weapon against some other race. This is a possibility, but i think its rather a poor and risky process to go to all that trouble to create life on worlds to then go out with the Urns to change them into Eggs and then to harvest those Eggs for Weapons. Its a long process and a risky one, and it kind of feels odd as to how the Deacon was created in connection to such a theory unless the Goo when dropped is planned to alter the Organisms so that when they reproduce they then create something similar to Shaws Baby and the Deacon. Unless the Xeno are created for some other purpose than as a Bio Weapon, because to me the Black Goo would be just as effective Bio Weapon. Do they need the Xeno Organism for something do they need its DNA to create other life forms or to prolong their own lives or their masters? We still dont have all the answers and at this minute anything could be possible. And again Ridleys conflicting comments dont help..... Such as the Derelict was a Bomber with Bio Weapon Eggs Comment and how it landed on LV 426 thousands of years ago. Then comments like Prometheus is where Mommy meets Daddy and about the Progenitor... They both contradict each other to the events of the Xeno predating Prometheus or occurring after. We also get Davids Comment "sometimes to create one must destroy" this gives a hint that mankinds creation was purely as a host for the Organisms created by the Goo... But then Ridley said that the Engineers was not happy at how Mankind had turned out so they sent down a emissary to sort us out and teach us of the wrongs we are doing and we ended up crucifying him, this then prompted 2000 years ago for them to then decide thats the last straw we need to wipe out this race we created. Again that goes against the other comment by David 8. So Ridley is playing a merry go round of wild goose chase..... Lets hope that he gets chance to finish his project and do Prometheus 2 and 3 and then after those all the pieces fit together and we get the answers.

My take on this as mentioned [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/7023]HERE[/url], is this... The Urns contain two substances... 1) the Seed which is contained within the vials, the same substance consumed by the Sacrificial Engineer, is a mutagen than when combined with genetic material imprints that material as a template onto what ever it contacts. 2) the slimy substance outside the vials is Xeno genetic material, because it is already in an inert, broken down state it is not broken down when combined with the Seed. When triggered the urns combine the Seed and the Xeno's genetic material, forming a black oil that forcibly imprints the Xeno genetic template onto whatever it comes into contact with, in exactly the same way as the Sacrificial Engineers genetic template was imprinted onto early life on Earth. Know regards which came first - Although the egg came before the chicken, I don't think this is the case with the the Urns. Millions/Billions of years ago the Engineers use the Seed with a chosen member of their own race to spread life on fledgling worlds in their image, like on Earth. It then seems that a few thousands years ago (at the very least) they used that very same substance, presumably stored in benevolent temples and manufactured a deadly viral weapon - the Urns. Which to me suggests a shift in the Engineers mandate, but thats another discussion. The urns were meant to be stored in a cold environment for transportation and deployment onto worlds in which the Engineers had previously seeded life. And from their deployment the Xeno's genetic template would result in a deacon-like first generation Xeno. And with each generation the Xeno's would acquire more and more genetic traits from their hosts, until all viable hosts had been exhausted. With all the Xeno's dead, thanks to their short life span, and only the eggs remaining the Engineers would return to gather the eggs before transporting them to another location. So, in a long-winded way my answer to your question is that the urns came before eggs and the summary would be... [b]URNS = DEACON = XENO = EGGS[/b]

@ Snork-The inner material was the xeno DNA, not the outer black slime. Charlie was only exposed to the inner material, and he was obviously contaminated with xeno DNA. Thus the trilobite.