Xeno Orgins... Not simply a Chicken or Egg Debate.

Deacon as the new visual for the Alien maybe Deacon is the new rendition of the Alien. I will not call it "xeno" because that's J. Cameron's throw at it. The thing is, from my own perspective, a natural process of the original artist's visual improvement. And even if one has to forcibly connect dots, the Alien might pre-date Deacon and might not as well. If indeed what we see in Prometheus is a new rendition of the Alien creature; i.e. Alien and Deacon are one and the same, only re-imagined; the "Chicken and Egg" scenario becomes irrelevant. I still have the feeling that Ridley had zero intentions on showing the Deacon/Alien coming out of an Engineer. That was already hinted on the 1979's Alien movie. I believe that Sir Ridley was forced to do it. "Hints" work pretty well even if the Deacon/Alien wasn't shown in the end of Prometheus; there was already one such Hint in one of the Murals [the "cruxified" Alien/Deacon]. I can only imagine the kind of pressure involved during the movie to include the deacon at the end. And the full blown Cuddles as well. That is, at least how I see it.

I doubt that the artists who made Alien considered that this or any other question posed in the film would still be on the table 30 years later. They just created a strange and mysterious premise. Now they're trying to deal with them to everyone's satisfaction, which is just impossible.    There was the egg image in the advertising, and they definitely look like eggs, but they don't necessarily operate like eggs, but more like a living container, which  is far more disturbing, IMO. Cameron's adaption of the story worked largely because few people knew about the deleted scene with Dallas and Brett being transformed, which is more to my taste than a Queen laying eggs, though I do see the value of the Queen concept from a story propulsion point of view. Could the urns be mechanized embryos? Why not? We don't know that they're metal, and the liquid escaping and bathing the sides could be the first step in the process. Perhaps this would also account for the different sizes of urns, either they got smaller as the tech was refined, or they are meant for different species. Or indeed the urns are a refinement of the egg. I agree with David 1 that the life cycle at the end was not originally intended, and that maybe other issues were the result if meddling as well. that said, I enjoyed the new creatures.

@David 1 So you think that maybe Ridley is going for the concept of either. 1) Reboot the Franchise in that the Deacon is a reboot of the Xeno Organism. 2) That he is going for the idea that the Deacon leads to the Xeno somehow but then that after Alien... the Xeno ideas from Aliens will be none canon. I dont think Ridley would go the route of linking the Deacon with Alien Xeno and then trying to then pull of that Aliens is not canon and never happened. The clues as i interpret them all seem to point to [b]Option C[/b] Ridley hinted that the Derelict was on LV 426 for thousands of years, he latter revised that by saying the events that led to the Derelict on LV 426 occurred a few hundred years prior to the events of the downfall of the Engineers on LV 223. Which means the Derelict is hinted to had been on LV 426 over 2000 years prior to Prometheus. We can only assume that LV 223 has no more Engineers or else why would the Last Engineer not awaken or warn any others who are around still. In order for the Deacon to give birth to the Eggs/Alien in Alien then one of the below have to occur. 1) The Deacon hops aboard a Juggernaut and becomes the Space Jockey. 2) David or Shaw becomes the Space Jockey somehow. 3) Some Engineers return to LV 223 and then set off with either Cargo of Eggs laid by the Deacon or the Deacon gets aboard the ship and infects a Engineer. 4) Humans land on LV 223 looking for what happened to Prometheus and one of the crew becomes the Space Jockey. But Ridley hinted that the Derelict had a Cargo of Eggs and was heading from LV 223 thousands of years ago but then one of the Cargo got lose and caused the Engineer to have to make a unscheduled emergency landing on LV 426. Thus this tells me the Xeno occurred prior to the Deacon. I then look at how the Engineer at the beginning of the movie seeds his DNA that then gives rise to mankind and maybe all other advanced life on Earth, hence why we share the DNA with him. But then why do we not share DNA or have Xeno traits and why does the lifeforms in contact with the Urns not dissolve into DNA but instead mutated/evolve into Organisms that have Xeno traits. This tells me that the substances in the Urns and the Sacrificial Bowl are not the same. I look at the original scene where the Bowl was then shown outside the Xeno Mural in a Sacrificial pose like Christ and then connect that to the Engineer and only similar thing i find is that as a result of the Bowl the Sacrificial Engineer DNA breaks down into a substance that maybe either evolves basic lifeforms into those that contain Engineer DNA or that it evolves from the Engineer DNA. And that the Urns contain a substance that mutates and evolves lifeforms to new organisms that have and contain Xeno traits and DNA. So i then think, well what if the Engineers DNA actually comes into contact with very basic forms of life and his DNA mutates these to then evolve into Humans and other lifeforms. But how is there a connection with the Urns and Engineer? My only conclusion is that it could be possible that instead of the Engineers DNA breaking down into the Water, could it not have been collected and stored into a Ampule? And if so could that substance then be dropped into Water elsewhere and see the same chain of Evolution that occurred in the opening scene that created us? Could it not then be possible that the same substance that Sacrificial Engineer had taken could also be used to break down the Xeno into DNA/Substance just like the Sacrefical Engineer DNA/Substance and this substance would alter lifeforms it comes into contact with. And that the Engineers stored the resulting substance inside the Urns? If we are let to beleave that the Engineers broken down genetic material via the Sacreficial Bowls contents creates a chemical that can alter lifeforms (at basic level) into more evolved lifeforms that carry Engineer DNA. Then is the sequence we see after the Waterfall scene (that mutates basic life to lifeforms with Engineer DNA) not really that dissimilar to that of when the stuff in the Urns comes into contact with lifeforms and evolves/mutates them to take on Xeno DNA? Maybe thats the connection with the Bowl (before was changed to green orb) being placed outside the Mural of a Xeno in Sacrificial pose? Why....? Well if the Xeno was a Weapon, we know it is very dangerous and hard to control and contain, see what happened to the Engineer on LV 426, the Humans on LV 426 and the result of many failed attempts by mankind to latter capture and rear the Xeno to harness as a Bio Weapon. Surely breaking down the Xenos DNA in same fashion as Sacrificial Engineer did, to create a substance that can then be stored and contained more easier and that has more simple and easier way of deploying with similar effects to created deadly Bio Weapons. Is that not a better way of Weaponizing the Xeno, is that not a Evolution of the Weapon? All evidence seems to point to similar process to that, than the Deacon being the Proto Xeno or that the Black Goo creates the Xeno like it did Hammerpede and Deacon.

Totally agree with your last post BigDave. Xeno was 1st. Just seems obvious to me, if you pay attention. Deacon was the result of xeno DNA introduced into the human sexual cycle. Alien is the reverse. I also agree that what the engineer drank was different than the urn goo.

I'm sorry Big Dave I didn't answer your question! C gets my vote.

Big Dave I guess Sir Ridley just keeps is own view on the top of the line with the Industry pressing him and the whole "fanism and canonisnm" as well. And I truly believe that he really doesn't give a damn to what the Alien looked like in 1979 anymore. It's not a novelty for an Artist to reinvent his own concept. I usually give the Shninya Tsukamoto's example of his 3 "Tetsuo" movies, but you find it in almost every Artistic form, from movies to painting to architectural work etc. How many times did Giger paint and re-paint the Alien and the BioMechanoids and such? It's a contiunuous process of re-invention. So, yes I believe that Ridley was forced to come up with grown up Cuddles impregnating Bob to come up with Deacon for the Alien fanism and Industry money making enjoyment. I.e. I seriously believe that he is over with the Alien, as he himself stated, and wants to do a new thing with the SJ's, as he also stated. Unfortunately he is pressed by the Industry and the Alien fans to spoon fed them with the same old same old.

Hah, Tetsuo movies are c-ra-zy. Good point though, David 1.

Gen: yes C R A Z Y good. The same concept reinvented 2 times after the original one. If Cronemberg was Japanese, he would have done Tetsuo. lol

I prefer the last one. I think the black substance is some kind of mutagen based on the xeno DNA because it seems to mutate its host with xenomorph traits

The urn held 2 substances. The black goo. (a super fast working mutagen?) And the inner ampule held something else. (My money is on xeno DNA) Problems seemed to occur when the atmosphere was changed, mixing the 2 substances, and causing the urns to leak.

Yes David good points. Ridley did say he was fed up of the done to death Xeno, but then i found it bizarre that the movie then produced a Deacon Xeno. I felt if Ridley wanted to close the door on the Xeno then surely the events should have led to the Xeno, then we get the explanation and Ridley can shut the door on the Xeno and move onto the Engineers. But with the Deacon that leaves the door open for exploration of a new Organism, maybe one that would evolve to the reproductive cycle that Ridley would have wanted as opposed to the Alien Xeno evolved in Aliens to be part of a organism that has a Queen. Question is....? Was Ridley told to include such a creature to allow Fox to capitalise on in future? Or does Ridley want to create a Xeno Organism in the image and behavior that he always wanted? Either way there is a potential plot hole as far as links with Alien Universe unless somehow the Deacon does not get involved much and is wiped out without Mankind knowing, or that Weyland etc find it but cover it up. And Again exploring the Deacon in future movies well its not so far disimilar to the Orginal Xeno for someone who thinks the Xeno is done to death, its like the guys behind Jaws getting fed up of killer [b]Sharks[/b] and so makes more movies based on... killer [b]Killer Wales[/b]. I think what they have done is clever, and i dont think Ridley is all innocent in the project. You see at the basics, the movies shows some connection between the Engineers and the Xeno, and that a process of events concerning some experiments/bio weapons they are working on (The Urns) has the ability to via a series of events create a Organism that is very similar to the Xeno. There are not direct answers so that it cant be ruled out that this Deacon gives birth to the Xeno, or then no proof that it does. It simply shows a connection with Xeno DNA, this is a nod to prove that the Engineers via events and experiments they carry out not only played a hand in creation of Man, but they also had a hand in the Xeno. It means Ridley can concentrate on the Engineers and never answer what really was the Urns and Goo, what really went down on LV 426 or LV 223 and even what becomes of the Deacon. It leaves the door that can be shut on those, or opened up so Fox/Ridley due to demand could cover the Xeno or choose not to do so. Ridley could after he explores the Engineers, he could go and make a new Franchise based on the Deacon or reboot the franchise based on the Deacon and thus remake Alien. Or he could go explore the Engineers and when he is done, Fox has a door open to then explore the Deacon in another movie that has nothing to do with Ridley Scott.

Oh to further add... Prometheus could be not the plan Ridley had... it could be that he had a concept and idea behind the Space Jockey and that Prometheus was a way to slightly introduce the Engineers while the other half cover some ideas that should give us enough clues to figure out the Xeno connection. so that Prometheus 2 and 3 will be where Ridley gets to explore the Space Jockey and Engineer race and further himself from the Xeno. The thing is though the Spaights Draft was more connected to Alien, and it was when Lindelof sat down with Ridley that things started to distance away from the Xeno and be more about the Engineer and us and there part in our History as opposed to their part in the Xenos.

@genjitsu17 Yes indeed that appears to be the case, the Blacky Slime does seem to react with the inner substance maybe it prolongs the storage of the Xeno DNA element and also when mixed acts as a way to accelerate and multiply the Xeno DNA material. Yes it would seem the Urns are triggered by atmospheric changes, and mainly when the Human Crew took off their helmets. This answers the Space Jockey Suits.... you see the atmosphere inside the Temple and Juggernaut is breathable so why wear a Space Jockey suit? The Engineer did not wear one inside the temple/ship and he also managed to get to Shaw without one and thus survived the hostile atmosphere outside the ship. That leaves one reason for the Space Jockey suits and thats a Bio Suit that may protect the Engineers from the Goo, but more so it is like the crews Space suits in that when they are worn it stops their breathing process to effect the atmosphere of the room that then triggers the Urns. Thus i assume had the Engineers taken off the Space Jockey suits when they was handling or near the Urns then they would set them off like the crew did.

as far as im concerned, all evidence clearly points to [i]choice C[/i]. Original xeno/alien pre-dates the deacon. the deacon is just a variation of the species. I also think that the derelict that landed on lv 426 was carrying eggs as its original cargo. Finally, although i think the different urns have varying applications, im thinking that the weaponized urns could possibly be an updated (more efficient and more stable) delivery method for the bio weapon etc.

Big Dave: eheheh, man you always write a lot. lolol. I'm not sure how much of "circle closing" Sir Ridley is interested in. I mean, does it really matter? It seems to matter if one expects for some sort of closure with the Alien franchise. That is the Fans and Industry call on it. I'm hardly convinced that Sir ridley has any kind of interest other than tell the SJ's story. So, they did some genetical things that involves Aliens/Deacons. Ok. What else do they do? I believe that is the point Sir Ridley is more interested in. There is a lot he can do if the Industry and the Fans stop poking at what he wants to show this time around instead of doing his work just to please the acid for blood alien creature and alien pregnancies and whatnot. I guess we'll just have to whait and see. And meanwile have some fun trying to see where his work might lead. p.s.: as I said, this is my take on the man's work. A personal opinion.

I choose C. I like where your going with this bigdave. Major Noob "I doubt that the artists who made Alien considered that this or any other question posed in the film would still be on the table 30 years later. They just created a strange and mysterious premise. Now they're trying to deal with them to everyone's satisfaction, which is just impossible." Major Noob will you please post this in the canon debate/ambiguity debate if you hadn't already !!! Very valid point. INCREDIBLY valid point !!! Big Dave Don't think because I quoted the above I think this thread is useless and unnecessary.. Not in the slightest do I think so !!!! Thanks for this thread because the following is very important for further debates IMHO: 1.) Qoute: "So you think that maybe Ridley is going for the concept of either. 1) Reboot the Franchise in that the Deacon is a reboot of the Xeno Organism. 2) That he is going for the idea that the Deacon leads to the Xeno somehow but then that after Alien... the Xeno ideas from Aliens will be none canon. I dont think Ridley would go the route of linking the Deacon with Alien Xeno and then trying to then pull of that Aliens is not canon and never happened." I am not so sure anymore bigdave. Ridley is 74. Maybe he is saying this is what should have haPpened. Snorks was very clear about how almost everyone involved with giler felt about him (giler). (thanks for making that clear snorks) Ridley might have decided that he is getting old and wanted to put his stamp on things before it is tOo late which I feel would be great(putting his stamp on things !!!!!!). 2.) "he latter revised that " Ridley seems to contradict himself from time to time as we all do. Just saying that it is almost impossible to draw a final conclusion from what anybody(alien production crew) says (about alien) or so it seems to me as it pertains to what happened to the sj and derelict. 3.) Quote: "This tells me that the substances in the Urns and the Sacrificial Bowl are not the same." Have the same idea !!! 4.) Quote; "Sacrificial Engineer DNA breaks down into a substance that maybe either evolves basic lifeforms into those that contain Engineer DNA or that it evolves from the Engineer DNA" I believe that the engineer DNA very quickly causes humanoid lifeforms to be created In the space of months. They can evolve of off course but that the basic human genome is already there. 5.) Quote: "My only conclusion is that it could be possible that instead of the Engineers DNA breaking down into the Water, could it not have been collected and stored into a Ampule?" I agree. 6.) "Could it not then be possible that the same substance that Sacrificial Engineer had taken could also be used to break down the Xeno into DNA/Substance just like the Sacrefical Engineer DNA/Substance and this substance would alter lifeforms it comes into contact with." Agree 7.) "Then is the sequence we see after the Waterfall scene (that mutates basic life to lifeforms with Engineer DNA) not really that dissimilar to that of when the stuff in the Urns comes into contact with lifeforms and evolves/mutates them to take on Xeno DNA?" I agree . This is important in eastablishing what happened to the engineers om lv 223. 8.) "Well if the Xeno was a Weapon, we know it is very dangerous and hard to control and contain, see what happened to the Engineer on LV 426, the Humans on LV 426 and the result of many failed attempts by mankind to latter capture and rear the Xeno to harness as a Bio Weapon. Surely breaking down the Xenos DNA in same fashion as Sacrificial Engineer did, to create a substance that can then be stored and contained more easier and that has more simple and easier way of deploying with similar effects to created deadly Bio Weapons. Is that not a better way of Weaponizing the Xeno, is that not a Evolution of the Weapon?" Agree 100 percent !!! 9.) "Ridley could after he explores the Engineers, he could go and make a new Franchise based on the Deacon or reboot the franchise based on the Deacon and thus remake Alien." I certainly hope so that we can get rid of all this canon BS. Great thought bigdave. 10.) "maybe it prolongs the storage of the Xeno DNA element and also when mixed acts as a way to accelerate and multiply the Xeno DNA material." agreed !!!! I believe it is an amplification substance . 11.) I am beginning to wonder if my assertion that the biosuit is needed for breathing was the correct one. I think I am wrong there. The only thing I don t get is why was ford and Shaw coughing when the ampule room door was opened ? I Googled for gasses that makes you cough and found hydrogen sulphate gas as a possibility but its a bit on the poisonous side as in it would have killed the worms in the room. Would engineers be able to breathe in the ampule room with the doors closed ? I don't know. So maybe the sj would have been able to leave his Chair and get facehugged before crash landing on lv 426 ? Adapting my theories as I go. Big Dave Something has been bothering me for the longest time: when Shaw flees from the engineer at the end out of the jugg she gets blown out of the ship - am I right ? Then when she climbs up she is very far from the pyramid ? Why wasn't she getting out of the pyrimad instead ?

My comment in the thread 'from urns to eggs'. I think it aplies to this thread also. We don't know where the eggs came from yet. Ridley didn't explain it in prometheus, which i really thought he would have done. We don't yet have a clear picture of what and how! But, going off the deleted scene in Alien, where Brett and Dallas were being turned into eggs, i would say that the SJs cargo of eggs are humanoids, from another planet, that have been turned into the eggs we see in the derelict. I think, the SJ was on his way back from another planet, populated by humanoids, that the Engineers had created and that SJ had been despatched to that planet to round up the eggs. On his way back to LV 223 he becomes a victim of a face hugger. Maybe, what they are trying to do with the black stuff, is resurrect the demon lord (lucifer) and the more eggs there are, the more chance there is of resurrecting it (lucifer)? Eggs symbolize resurrection in religion and Ridley as stated that the engineers are "dark angels". They also symbolize the resurrection of Jeebus Christ.

@David 1 I agree that Ridley will be concentrating purely on the Engineers and who really are they, why did they create us and why did they then want us killed off. It could also touch upon if the Engineers are indeed the creators of indeed that they are also created. I do feel that Ridley would give some vague hints to the reason for the Xeno in Prometheus 2 or at very least by Prometheus 3, this does not mean we would see Xenos running around as i think Ridley will steer clear of doing such a thing. But i think at some point he will explain why they was created and the purpose or/and why the Urns was created and from what and for what purpose. The purpose of this thread is not to discuss future movies so much, but just from the clues given what everyone thinks is how and why the Xeno came to be, which could be a question we may have to wait a long time to be answered or even one that never will be answered. Which brings me to...... @necronom 4 Yes very bizarre idea and one Snorky kind of goes with, and one that while it seems very difficult method it cant be ruled out... especially if we ignore all movies after Alien and look at the deleted Scene in Alien. This would then hint to the Black Goo creates a Process that turns Organisms into Eggs and then the Engineers collect the Eggs and then use them as a Bio Weapon against some other race. This is a possibility, but i think its rather a poor and risky process to go to all that trouble to create life on worlds to then go out with the Urns to change them into Eggs and then to harvest those Eggs for Weapons. Its a long process and a risky one, and it kind of feels odd as to how the Deacon was created in connection to such a theory unless the Goo when dropped is planned to alter the Organisms so that when they reproduce they then create something similar to Shaws Baby and the Deacon. Unless the Xeno are created for some other purpose than as a Bio Weapon, because to me the Black Goo would be just as effective Bio Weapon. Do they need the Xeno Organism for something do they need its DNA to create other life forms or to prolong their own lives or their masters? We still dont have all the answers and at this minute anything could be possible. And again Ridleys conflicting comments dont help..... Such as the Derelict was a Bomber with Bio Weapon Eggs Comment and how it landed on LV 426 thousands of years ago. Then comments like Prometheus is where Mommy meets Daddy and about the Progenitor... They both contradict each other to the events of the Xeno predating Prometheus or occurring after. We also get Davids Comment "sometimes to create one must destroy" this gives a hint that mankinds creation was purely as a host for the Organisms created by the Goo... But then Ridley said that the Engineers was not happy at how Mankind had turned out so they sent down a emissary to sort us out and teach us of the wrongs we are doing and we ended up crucifying him, this then prompted 2000 years ago for them to then decide thats the last straw we need to wipe out this race we created. Again that goes against the other comment by David 8. So Ridley is playing a merry go round of wild goose chase..... Lets hope that he gets chance to finish his project and do Prometheus 2 and 3 and then after those all the pieces fit together and we get the answers.

My take on this as mentioned [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/7023]HERE[/url], is this... The Urns contain two substances... 1) the Seed which is contained within the vials, the same substance consumed by the Sacrificial Engineer, is a mutagen than when combined with genetic material imprints that material as a template onto what ever it contacts. 2) the slimy substance outside the vials is Xeno genetic material, because it is already in an inert, broken down state it is not broken down when combined with the Seed. When triggered the urns combine the Seed and the Xeno's genetic material, forming a black oil that forcibly imprints the Xeno genetic template onto whatever it comes into contact with, in exactly the same way as the Sacrificial Engineers genetic template was imprinted onto early life on Earth. Know regards which came first - Although the egg came before the chicken, I don't think this is the case with the the Urns. Millions/Billions of years ago the Engineers use the Seed with a chosen member of their own race to spread life on fledgling worlds in their image, like on Earth. It then seems that a few thousands years ago (at the very least) they used that very same substance, presumably stored in benevolent temples and manufactured a deadly viral weapon - the Urns. Which to me suggests a shift in the Engineers mandate, but thats another discussion. The urns were meant to be stored in a cold environment for transportation and deployment onto worlds in which the Engineers had previously seeded life. And from their deployment the Xeno's genetic template would result in a deacon-like first generation Xeno. And with each generation the Xeno's would acquire more and more genetic traits from their hosts, until all viable hosts had been exhausted. With all the Xeno's dead, thanks to their short life span, and only the eggs remaining the Engineers would return to gather the eggs before transporting them to another location. So, in a long-winded way my answer to your question is that the urns came before eggs and the summary would be... [b]URNS = DEACON = XENO = EGGS[/b]

@ Snork-The inner material was the xeno DNA, not the outer black slime. Charlie was only exposed to the inner material, and he was obviously contaminated with xeno DNA. Thus the trilobite.

@ Genjitsu Although I can't argue with that logic, I do see it the way I stated, and this is why... First Reason - After waking up Holloway sees something in his eye, which seems to drop, as though his eye is deteriorating. Then later he falls as though weak before brushing it off as nothing. Then upon returning to the ampule room and up until his fiery death we see him struggling to stand, screaming out in pain and black veins creeping up his neck and face. Now I don't recall the worms nor Fifield reacting this way, but I do remember the Sacrificial Engineer acting in the exact same way at the start of the movie. Now I know there's the issue of "If Holloway was infected with the Seed, why did Shaw give birth to the Trilobite", the truth is there are many ways she could have been infected by the Xeno DNA slime - both visits to the Ampule room, the fact that david didn't wash his hands after dealing with etc. Second Reason - of the two substances the Seed is by far the most dangerous, contact with it resulting in a persons body breaking down, whereas the Xeno DNA, already being broken down and inert is harmless on its own. Thus, this is also why I suspect the seed is stored in vials, because of its deadly nature.

I was under the impression that the DNA had effected his sperm, and it was literally crawling around inside him looking for something to impregnate. Upon close slomo inspection of the eye scene, it's not degrading. There's a tangled wormy mass moving around in his eye.

P.S. Love your signature. While i can't prove it....."It's what I choose to believe." LOL

Its one of those things that really we do not know 100% and everyone's interpretation will be different. Yes Holloway had his veins start to swell as if something was coursing through them like the Sacrificial Engineer. But we never quite see the final stages, we do not know 100% for sure that Holloway was breaking down just like the Engineer. But also likewise we do not see what fully happens to Fifield we see him get Acid on his mask then the Black Goo and he screams in pain and it causes some kind of mutation which does seem to be not as intense a change as the Hammerpedes regarding the final used Toxic Avenger, but the other more Xeno looking concepts seem to be same level of transformation as the Hammerpedes. Again my biggest flaw with any connection with Holloway and Sacrificial Engineer seed and Xeno DNA would be the following. Why does mankind not contain Xeno DNA.... ok because the seed is not Xeno DNA. But then how does Holloway have that Organism in his eyes and how does Shaw become pregnant with the Xeno looking Trilobite if Holloway is not infected with anything that causes such? Again only Ridley has the full answers..... maybe we should all Kidnap him for answers or just wait another 4-5 years. lol.

Yes you make some good points. We seem to see the following changes caused by the Urns. Hammerpede, it appears that they started out as worms that then came into contact with the leaked black substance on the floors. This means they was near enough swimming in the stuff. These worms are turned into much larger organisms that resemble serpents and their heads do have some characteristics of a Face Hugger. They also retain some aspects of the Worm, because Fifield cuts ones head off and it[b] Sprays Acid[/b] a Xeno Trait and then its head grows back instantly like a Worms head does only at far greater speed. This is evidence that the new organism carries Xeno DNA but also heightens and improves/evolves traits of the original Organism. Fifield comes into contact wth the substance when he falls into the Black Fluid and while his transformation to Toxic Avenger is lame.... looking at the other concepts such as these ones. [img]http://images.fandango.com/MDCsite/images/featured/201206/prometheus-babyhead-design.jpg[/img] Shows that he was changing into something that took on Xeno DNA. Now when we look at the Hammerpede and Fifield Xeno Hybrids they do not look very close to a Xeno or act like one. Holloway we do not see what he would have ended up as, only that it is logical that Xeno DNA was passed on from his infection (orally) to Shaw that then led to Shaws Baby Squid. So again no proof that Holloways contact with the goo changed him into a Xeno either. Its only a collection of events that lead to anything even close to a Xeno and that was the DNA passed on most likely via Sex to Shaw to impregnate her and transform a Human Embryo into one that very closely resembles the Face Hugger. Shaws Baby acts similar to a Face Hugger (and the infant stage Baby Squid is how the original Face Hugger was described in Star Beast the Original Alien Draft Script). We see Shaws Baby grow and it then basically Face Hugs the Engineer and then dies just like a Face Hugger, the Engineer then gives birth to a Deacon Chest Buster in the same process as the Xeno Chest Buster. While the Deacon is bigger than the Xeno Chest Buster so was the Trilobite compared to the Face Hugger. I can only assume that one of the substances used to make the goo has acted as a accelerant and makes Organisms that grow larger than a Xeno. I dont buy the Deacon being larger because the Engineer was larger than a Human, but because the Trilobite Squid was also larger than the Face Hugger. I think this is proven by how the Space Jockeys Chest Bust hole in Alien was not large like the Deacons. Now had Shaws Baby got to Shaw instead we do not know if the Deacon would look exactly the same. The point of all the above to me points to this.... I think the creation of the Deacon was via a freak set of events and that simply dropping the Urns Goo on Humans will not make Trilobites/Face Huggers or Xenos/Deacons.

The underlying problem with decoding the mysteries of Prometheus is that on the face of it the Hammerpede and Fifield mutations are fairly self explanatory, organisms affected by the combined substances of the urns result in Xenomorph traits developing in said organisms. the problem comes with the Xenomorph/Deacon, this creature is obviously the end game, the goal the purpose of the weapon, the question is how. Although we are shown this in Prometheus we need to break it down into its component parts - is it a random chance of events that leads to the deacon or is it an example of the infection of the weapon. Although I have been arguing for some time now that Holloway is only infected with the Seed contained within the vials, after writing out my post yesterday a point became clear (usually the case of when seen written it is viewed different from your own perspective)... David does not wash his hands after removing the slime covering the vials, nor before emptying the coagulated contents of the vials onto his finger. Thus it would actually be safe to assume that Holloway is in fact infected with both substances. Following that, and the chain of events that follow - intercourse with Shaw, whom gives birth to an Uber-facehugger, starting the well established Xenomorph lifecycle. I would presume that the break down of events is as thus... - Urns deployed on target planet by a Juggernaut. - Black Oil (Seed + Xeno DNA) spreads worldwide and thus infects individual organisms in small quantities. - Infected organisms continue daily life. - Those not sexually active slowly mutate a la Hammerpedes and Fifield, causing social unrest. - Post-Intercourse victims give birth to Uber-Facehuggers, beginning Xenomorph infestation - Xenomorphs propagate at the expense of indigenous hosts - Hosts exhausted, Xenomorphs die, only the eggs remain - Eggs collected by Juggernaut, transported somewhere as yet unknown. Seems to not only explain the purpose of the urns, but also bridges the purposes of the two Engineer piloted Juggernauts seen within the Prometheus-Alien franchise.

Yes there is a possibility that David 8 had infected Holloway with both substances as you stated. While also it could again be that the inner substance contains Xeno DNA and when it mixes with outer substance it causes the Xeno DNA to maybe multiply or acts as some other Accelerant and hence the rabid mutation and level of mutation of the worms and Fifield as opposed to the more slower and different infection that Holloway had if indeed he never had the Accelerant but just the Goo. Thats the fun thing with the movies ambiguous nature there is no one set answer only Ridley knows the answer and when it is finally if it ever is revealed it may even be something more bizarre or that we have not yet touched upon. Your point about the Urns is valid one as far as if the contents get released into Water it would dilute and thus only be consumed by Organisms in smaller doses. If you drank a Bottle of Vodka you would feel the effects, if you poored the Vodka bottle into your bathtub filled with water and then took put the bottle back in to fill the mixture in it and drank from that, well you not gonna get drunk are you. So yes very valid point. I still beg to differ from the aim game of the Urn is to create Xeno Organisms to then create Eggs that the Engineers then collect, we all know how hazardous that can be and how easier it is to set off a Egg to release Face Huggers. But again its a case of this remains a possibility. Its seems my theory looks more at the concept and connections of the whole Franchise of Alien and the idea that the Xeno is a Bio Weapon, in that Eggs are released onto a planet then they overtake the inhabitants and maybe then die out..... This potentially does leave Eggs behind even if we look at both scenarios of Xenos create Eggs from Hosts or some Xenos can become Queens that lay Eggs. So then the Engineers would have to dispose of the Eggs anyway. So my view was the Urns was another way to weaponize the Xeno with safer way to deploy them, but again we are still left the potential mystery that is. 1) Do Organisms changed into Xeno DNA Organisms die out if so when? 2) Do they or can they reproduce? 3) That there is a potential for a set of events to occur that would result in creation of a more true Xeno or Deacon Organism that can then either create or lay more Eggs. So so many possible answers and all made due to the ambiguous nature of the movie and Ridley Scotts contradicting comments which leaves no Door Closed.

I'm glad you agree, in an ambiguous way, BigDave... Although it would be dangerous for a ship to transport Xenomorph eggs, we do know that they do in fact do this, as evidenced by the derelict juggernaut on LV-426. Yet, taking into account Ridleys two statements that said vessel was "a bomber carrying the eggs" and the he believes the pilot of said vessel to be "benevolent", leads me to suspect that the eggs where not being transported to be destroyed or deployed elsewhere, but were in fact the ultimate end goal of this macabre design the Engineers now have for their children they had previously sired. My only speculation as to why they want the eggs is for our genetic material, but that is a guess, although educated it is a guess. As to your questions i would say that the first two are irrelevant, the mutants would be cannon fodder and a way of expelling a percentage of the population. As to you other question I would suggest the following... - A Xenomorph born would have the ability, as soon in Alien and hypothesized by myself, to convert a host into an egg incubating a Royal Facehugger, thus siring a Queen (marries Prometheus-Alien-Aliens-Alien3 together).

@BigDave. You said "Yes very bizarre idea and one Snorky kind of goes with, and one that while it seems very difficult method it cant be ruled out... especially if we ignore all movies after Alien and look at the deleted Scene in Alien." Yes indeedy. Alot of people seem to forget sometimes that "the deleted scene" in Alien, actually became a part of the film in the directors cut. That means, it's canon!

Btw, in Prometheus, Holloway looks like he's turning into a face hugger. In the scene, where they go back to the temple, after he's been infected, he's slumped on the floor, with all kinds of lumps and bumps under his skin. Those lumps and bumps remind me of a face huggers tail. I know i know, i'm nuts.

There's also the (often overlooked or not-considered) possibility that the Deacon gets infected by the Hammerpede. - Deacon has pink gums, suggesting, if anything, that it has human/engineer-like blood, while the Hammerpede has blood that is downright weaponized. - Deacon lacks many of the segmented or worm-like characteristics in it's appearance and lifecycle, while the Hammerpede is basically a traditional facehugger lacking almost everything that was present in the Deacon's parent organism (Trilobyte, or 'Cuddles'). - Traditional Xenomorph lifecycle (read: as we know it) parallels many of the characteristics of worm/insect behavior, and that's a very short amount of time to evolve those traits without having them introduced. - Deacon is left alone on a planet where the only other known living organism is a mouth-raping fanged worm with acidblood. Seriously. Nothing but those two left alone with nothing better to do than either scream profanity at each other or make sweet love to each others word-holes. EDIT: I could actually go on all day supporting this hypothesis. - Xenos have six fingers / Deacon has five. Suggests a trait that wasn't reinforced. - Deacon lacks a tail / Xenos tails are segmented and weaponized, as are the facehuggers. These traits aren't seen in the entire Deacon lifecycle. - Humanlike bones in Facehuggers phenotype. Insinuates human and/or Engi DNA was introduced at some recent point in it's lineage, and seeing this paired with what is essentially the lower 90% of a Hammerpede's body, along with it's overall behavior, strength, and physiology is, to me, pretty damned convincing evidence of some meaningful manner of intermingling between the Deac and Pede gene pool. - The Xenomorph's appearance carries artifacts and possible beneficial traits of the Engineers genetically altered 'body suit' armor. The only organism that appeared 'bio-mechanical' to me in Prometheus was the Engineers, and more specifically, their 'suits'...which in lieu of any real explanation aside from visual clues, was essentially their own modified flesh (explaining the lack of a 'seam' between their hands, feet, and their 'suits'). If the Xenos were, in fact, the product of a lineage that included Engineer DNA, it would be no surprise then that they, too, would be the only OTHER organism that looked decidedly 'bio-mechanical'. Wouldn't you agree?

"Xenos have six fingers / Deacon has five. Suggests a trait that wasn't reinforced." That means they are inbred then ;) On a serious note yes some interesting ideas, but i do think that the Xeno has been around prior to the Deacon and thus the Deacon is not the Mother to the Xenos but rather a end product/evolution of the Xeno Organism. As far as the Engineers suits yes they appear Bio Mechanical and as i have said on other threads, i liken them to say how we would wear a fur coat it is just worn as a item of clothing. But what if when we put on the Fur Coat it joins to our skin and body and acts just like the Fur did with the original creature it was cut from. Thats how the Engineers suits work. Well as far as i have gathered. But yes the actual Space Jockey Suit does have some things in common with the Xeno and who knows maybe the reverse engineered the Space Jockey suits from Xenos?

"On a serious note yes some interesting ideas, but i do think that the Xeno has been around prior to the Deacon and thus the Deacon is not the Mother to the Xenos but rather a end product/evolution of the Xeno Organism." Why? The 'tomb' depiction of the 'Xeno' at best resembled a Deacon, and at worst was too ambiguous to resemble either one to point of any measure of certainty. Obviously the 'goo' has a purpose, and that purpose tends toward results that resemble a weaponized version of it's host, and if the host is humanoid, it will likely resemble (after a generation or two) a Xeno/Deacon. I'm not arguing that something like a Xenomorph never existed, but that the characteristics in what we KNOW of Xenomorphs insinuate that, at some point, a Hammerpede was involved. You only need to look at the physiology of the facehugger and the acid blood of the Xeno to see this in context, as neither of those traits were anywhere to be found (or made known) outside of the Hammerpede. Cut and dry. Hammerpede (pay close attention to the lower 90%) [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vTakXKoQ4tc/T9Y3B5nMeDI/AAAAAAAAA4g/VVwxKS1y3IY/s640/ALIEN+PROMETHEUS+HAMMERPEDE+WORM.jpg[/img] Facehugger (same as above) [img]http://terrordaves.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/alien_facehugger_001_1197062102.jpg[/img] "Thats how the Engineers suits work. Well as far as i have gathered." Gathered from where? I'd love to see this, because it's counter-intuitive to their technology in almost every sense. When the Deacon ripped Grumpy open, you'd have expected his 'suit' to behave like any other suit and fall away from the wound. It didn't, and I firmly believe it was a deliberate artistic move. EDIT: The only piece of the 'suit' I've gathered that attaches seperately is the helmet. Also interesting to note is that the suits seen by themselves in the halls are -not- the same suit being worn by the 'naked' engineer; they're analogous (or possibly identical) to those that attach themselves to the engineers when they 'strap in' to the pilot's chair. [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9o4YRxyjl5I/T9YbM9yBnFI/AAAAAAAADBI/bcesDwkzot0/s1600/Prometheus+space+jockey+engineer+pilot2+pics.jpg[/img] Seems a bit odd that they'd wear a suit over a suit, if the suit wasn't already equitable with their own bare skin. I mean, they wear these things in hypersleep...

Yes the Hammerpede does have some traits of the Face Hugger, maybe because of the Xeno DNA? But so does Shaws Squid and ok we never saw Acid in Shaws Squid but then again we never saw it get wounded. But still yes we can not rule out that the Hammerpede and Deacon somehow get involved to produce the Xeno. And yes the Mural does look like the Deacon more than a Xeno, and this goes with Ridley saying its where Mommy meets Daddy and the Progenitor. The Mural also has Traditional Xeno Face Huggers below it so maybe the Xeno Organism in the Mural gives rise to the Face Hugger. But then Ridley contradicts such events by suggesting the Derelict had been on LV 223 for a long time and even went as far to say it landed on LV 426 a few hundred years prior to the Events of the outbreak on LV 223 some 2000 years ago, and that the Derelict had a Cargo of Eggs. Now even if i am mistaken and the few hundred was within a few hundred years of and not prior then that would imply that the Derelict landed with a Cargo of Eggs on LV 426 between 2300 to 1700 years prior to the events of Prometheus circa 2093/94 End of the day its so ambiguous that really only Ridley knows he idea of where and when the Xeno came from.

As far as the Engineer goes the Sacrificial one had no Suit he was near naked and the Elders had robes on. At some point they developed a item of clothing that bonded with their bodies such is the advancement of their technology. I would assume this is for a reason. And that Engineers who are on the Homeworld would not wear such suits. The Last Engineer suit is just a advanced form of this in my opinion. [img]http://images.usoutdoor.com/usoutdoorstore/products/full/q_5_4hd_hs_ignite_bkn_07.jpg[/img] The Space Jockey suit is like this... [img]http://oceansdivers.com/wp-content/gallery/scuba-self-contained-underwater-breathing-apparatus/scuba_diving_equipment.jpg[/img] But also could be just their version of [img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f-SmJKK78z4/TaBiMhQr68I/AAAAAAAAAfI/MKGZJ2glmO4/s1600/suit1.jpg[/img] More likely a suit that combined both functions. The Pilot Suit in chair is similar but like say our version of this. [img]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/xplanes/images/outf-figures.jpg[/img] Thats what i think anyway.

As far as the bas relief in the ampule room is concerned, I agree that the xeno-esque figure (the one that is depicted quasi-crucified) resembles both the traditional xeno and the "deacon". Its difficult to decide which entity its supposed to depict. However, we mustn't forget the other pieces of artwork in the ampule room (the 2 frescos on the ceiling). One of the frescos CLEARLY depicts a hand/arm that is analogous to the hand/arm of the traditional xeno (shown in Alien). We dont get a great look at it in prometheus (because it is deteriorating), but the concept art book has a nice full page print of said fresco. First of all, a traditional xeno egg (analogous to the ones shown in Alien) is depicted. Second of all, a xeno-esque hand is depicted to the side/behind the egg in question. Now...this hand/arm is identical to the hand/arm of the traditional alien/xeno seen in the film Alien. The "deacon" and the "alien" have very obvious differences in the hand/ arm region. No question, the hand/arm depicted in one of the frescos in the ampule room is that of the creature seen in the film Alien. What does this mean? as far as im concerned, this is just more evidence of the fact that the traditional xeno does not evolve from/post-date the deacon. In addition, the eggs seen in Alien existed prior to the adventures of shaw/david and co. (the bulk of the events that transpire in prometheus). Have any of you guys examined the piece of artwork im referencing (the fresco of the egg and xeno hand/arm)? Do you see what im getting at?

Yes i agree and it adds with Ridleys Comments..... About the Derelict and timeline and it had Eggs and thus the Deacon is a Evolution of the Xeno and a predecessor. Also Ridleys comments about Mommy meets Daddy may be misleading to assume its about the Xeno, when it means the Deacon. And Lindelofs the movie is about the Progenitor again left ambiguous but does not have to be about the Xeno. The movie is about the Progenitor of the Deacon and not the Xeno.... but what else is it about as far as Progenitor goes..... ENGINEER = HUMAN PROGENITOR maybe thats what he meant but in a context to keep us thinking it could be about the Events of Shaws Baby to Deacon in relation to Xeno.

Big Dave Do you not think there is a need to develop a theory on the origins of the Xenomorph and their role in engineer society based solely on what happens in prometheus and alien (specifically the directors cut of alien) forgetting the rest of the alien films ?

I would like to think so. And i do hope that Prometheus 3 makes the connection, we dont have to see no Xenos all over the place. Only some kind of flash back, or Mural or even Dialog where they simply explain more about the Xeno and there connection with it. Seems to be Bio Weapon, but where from, how come and why.

Bigdave Do you think that all the homages paid to the rest of the alien series means that Ridley is using what is known about the xeno's(from a2 to a4) as background info for xeno's ? For example does it mean it mean we will find a queen/hive somewhere in P1 - p3 or will we only find warrior xeno's finally reaching maturity and injecting egg morphing goo . I know you don't have the answers on this(yet !!!!). My point is will it not be easier to theorise about the xenomorph origins once this question is answered ? And indeed the engineer civilisation ? Let me just say this : it doesn't matter to me one way or another if Ridley uses all the alien movies as background info for xenomorph behaviour / ability / lifecycle or only alien . All that matters to me is that we etablish what is the case regarding this. Why is this so important to me ? Well in the ambiguity discussion craigamore noted that there was speculation that the facehugger inserts a viral agent into its host wkich uses the host to create an embryo.. I dont recall any mention of an embryo in alien itself. Am I wrong bigdave ? If this is the case bigdave could it be possible that the virus in the ampules is in fact what the embryo forces down its host throat ? Directly turning your innards into a chestburster ? This is just an example of what I am getting at . To me personally it doesn't matter whether its a virus or embryo from a preferential view only that we know which way ridley went as to establish possible theories on the xenomorph origins or anything else that we might theorise on. Congrats on your new title. Well deserved !!!! And so to all other people promoted. Thanks to ALL the staff for this blog . It is really appreciated !!!!(are you all programmers ?? YES I AM JEALOUS !!! LOOL !!!) I expect to get noisy around here as the DVD is released . I am guessing a lot of my theories will be broken down to its DNA core !!!! Oh yes It doesn't matter to me if we see xeno's in P1 - p3 .( ok ok I would like to see a xenomorph in its final adult lifecycle where I am guessing the skin is no longer translucent. ) I guess the additional 40 minutes will answer a lot of questions.