Xeno Orgins... Not simply a Chicken or Egg Debate.

@ Genjitsu Although I can't argue with that logic, I do see it the way I stated, and this is why... First Reason - After waking up Holloway sees something in his eye, which seems to drop, as though his eye is deteriorating. Then later he falls as though weak before brushing it off as nothing. Then upon returning to the ampule room and up until his fiery death we see him struggling to stand, screaming out in pain and black veins creeping up his neck and face. Now I don't recall the worms nor Fifield reacting this way, but I do remember the Sacrificial Engineer acting in the exact same way at the start of the movie. Now I know there's the issue of "If Holloway was infected with the Seed, why did Shaw give birth to the Trilobite", the truth is there are many ways she could have been infected by the Xeno DNA slime - both visits to the Ampule room, the fact that david didn't wash his hands after dealing with etc. Second Reason - of the two substances the Seed is by far the most dangerous, contact with it resulting in a persons body breaking down, whereas the Xeno DNA, already being broken down and inert is harmless on its own. Thus, this is also why I suspect the seed is stored in vials, because of its deadly nature.

I was under the impression that the DNA had effected his sperm, and it was literally crawling around inside him looking for something to impregnate. Upon close slomo inspection of the eye scene, it's not degrading. There's a tangled wormy mass moving around in his eye.

P.S. Love your signature. While i can't prove it....."It's what I choose to believe." LOL

Its one of those things that really we do not know 100% and everyone's interpretation will be different. Yes Holloway had his veins start to swell as if something was coursing through them like the Sacrificial Engineer. But we never quite see the final stages, we do not know 100% for sure that Holloway was breaking down just like the Engineer. But also likewise we do not see what fully happens to Fifield we see him get Acid on his mask then the Black Goo and he screams in pain and it causes some kind of mutation which does seem to be not as intense a change as the Hammerpedes regarding the final used Toxic Avenger, but the other more Xeno looking concepts seem to be same level of transformation as the Hammerpedes. Again my biggest flaw with any connection with Holloway and Sacrificial Engineer seed and Xeno DNA would be the following. Why does mankind not contain Xeno DNA.... ok because the seed is not Xeno DNA. But then how does Holloway have that Organism in his eyes and how does Shaw become pregnant with the Xeno looking Trilobite if Holloway is not infected with anything that causes such? Again only Ridley has the full answers..... maybe we should all Kidnap him for answers or just wait another 4-5 years. lol.

Yes you make some good points. We seem to see the following changes caused by the Urns. Hammerpede, it appears that they started out as worms that then came into contact with the leaked black substance on the floors. This means they was near enough swimming in the stuff. These worms are turned into much larger organisms that resemble serpents and their heads do have some characteristics of a Face Hugger. They also retain some aspects of the Worm, because Fifield cuts ones head off and it[b] Sprays Acid[/b] a Xeno Trait and then its head grows back instantly like a Worms head does only at far greater speed. This is evidence that the new organism carries Xeno DNA but also heightens and improves/evolves traits of the original Organism. Fifield comes into contact wth the substance when he falls into the Black Fluid and while his transformation to Toxic Avenger is lame.... looking at the other concepts such as these ones. [img]http://images.fandango.com/MDCsite/images/featured/201206/prometheus-babyhead-design.jpg[/img] Shows that he was changing into something that took on Xeno DNA. Now when we look at the Hammerpede and Fifield Xeno Hybrids they do not look very close to a Xeno or act like one. Holloway we do not see what he would have ended up as, only that it is logical that Xeno DNA was passed on from his infection (orally) to Shaw that then led to Shaws Baby Squid. So again no proof that Holloways contact with the goo changed him into a Xeno either. Its only a collection of events that lead to anything even close to a Xeno and that was the DNA passed on most likely via Sex to Shaw to impregnate her and transform a Human Embryo into one that very closely resembles the Face Hugger. Shaws Baby acts similar to a Face Hugger (and the infant stage Baby Squid is how the original Face Hugger was described in Star Beast the Original Alien Draft Script). We see Shaws Baby grow and it then basically Face Hugs the Engineer and then dies just like a Face Hugger, the Engineer then gives birth to a Deacon Chest Buster in the same process as the Xeno Chest Buster. While the Deacon is bigger than the Xeno Chest Buster so was the Trilobite compared to the Face Hugger. I can only assume that one of the substances used to make the goo has acted as a accelerant and makes Organisms that grow larger than a Xeno. I dont buy the Deacon being larger because the Engineer was larger than a Human, but because the Trilobite Squid was also larger than the Face Hugger. I think this is proven by how the Space Jockeys Chest Bust hole in Alien was not large like the Deacons. Now had Shaws Baby got to Shaw instead we do not know if the Deacon would look exactly the same. The point of all the above to me points to this.... I think the creation of the Deacon was via a freak set of events and that simply dropping the Urns Goo on Humans will not make Trilobites/Face Huggers or Xenos/Deacons.

The underlying problem with decoding the mysteries of Prometheus is that on the face of it the Hammerpede and Fifield mutations are fairly self explanatory, organisms affected by the combined substances of the urns result in Xenomorph traits developing in said organisms. the problem comes with the Xenomorph/Deacon, this creature is obviously the end game, the goal the purpose of the weapon, the question is how. Although we are shown this in Prometheus we need to break it down into its component parts - is it a random chance of events that leads to the deacon or is it an example of the infection of the weapon. Although I have been arguing for some time now that Holloway is only infected with the Seed contained within the vials, after writing out my post yesterday a point became clear (usually the case of when seen written it is viewed different from your own perspective)... David does not wash his hands after removing the slime covering the vials, nor before emptying the coagulated contents of the vials onto his finger. Thus it would actually be safe to assume that Holloway is in fact infected with both substances. Following that, and the chain of events that follow - intercourse with Shaw, whom gives birth to an Uber-facehugger, starting the well established Xenomorph lifecycle. I would presume that the break down of events is as thus... - Urns deployed on target planet by a Juggernaut. - Black Oil (Seed + Xeno DNA) spreads worldwide and thus infects individual organisms in small quantities. - Infected organisms continue daily life. - Those not sexually active slowly mutate a la Hammerpedes and Fifield, causing social unrest. - Post-Intercourse victims give birth to Uber-Facehuggers, beginning Xenomorph infestation - Xenomorphs propagate at the expense of indigenous hosts - Hosts exhausted, Xenomorphs die, only the eggs remain - Eggs collected by Juggernaut, transported somewhere as yet unknown. Seems to not only explain the purpose of the urns, but also bridges the purposes of the two Engineer piloted Juggernauts seen within the Prometheus-Alien franchise.

Yes there is a possibility that David 8 had infected Holloway with both substances as you stated. While also it could again be that the inner substance contains Xeno DNA and when it mixes with outer substance it causes the Xeno DNA to maybe multiply or acts as some other Accelerant and hence the rabid mutation and level of mutation of the worms and Fifield as opposed to the more slower and different infection that Holloway had if indeed he never had the Accelerant but just the Goo. Thats the fun thing with the movies ambiguous nature there is no one set answer only Ridley knows the answer and when it is finally if it ever is revealed it may even be something more bizarre or that we have not yet touched upon. Your point about the Urns is valid one as far as if the contents get released into Water it would dilute and thus only be consumed by Organisms in smaller doses. If you drank a Bottle of Vodka you would feel the effects, if you poored the Vodka bottle into your bathtub filled with water and then took put the bottle back in to fill the mixture in it and drank from that, well you not gonna get drunk are you. So yes very valid point. I still beg to differ from the aim game of the Urn is to create Xeno Organisms to then create Eggs that the Engineers then collect, we all know how hazardous that can be and how easier it is to set off a Egg to release Face Huggers. But again its a case of this remains a possibility. Its seems my theory looks more at the concept and connections of the whole Franchise of Alien and the idea that the Xeno is a Bio Weapon, in that Eggs are released onto a planet then they overtake the inhabitants and maybe then die out..... This potentially does leave Eggs behind even if we look at both scenarios of Xenos create Eggs from Hosts or some Xenos can become Queens that lay Eggs. So then the Engineers would have to dispose of the Eggs anyway. So my view was the Urns was another way to weaponize the Xeno with safer way to deploy them, but again we are still left the potential mystery that is. 1) Do Organisms changed into Xeno DNA Organisms die out if so when? 2) Do they or can they reproduce? 3) That there is a potential for a set of events to occur that would result in creation of a more true Xeno or Deacon Organism that can then either create or lay more Eggs. So so many possible answers and all made due to the ambiguous nature of the movie and Ridley Scotts contradicting comments which leaves no Door Closed.

I'm glad you agree, in an ambiguous way, BigDave... Although it would be dangerous for a ship to transport Xenomorph eggs, we do know that they do in fact do this, as evidenced by the derelict juggernaut on LV-426. Yet, taking into account Ridleys two statements that said vessel was "a bomber carrying the eggs" and the he believes the pilot of said vessel to be "benevolent", leads me to suspect that the eggs where not being transported to be destroyed or deployed elsewhere, but were in fact the ultimate end goal of this macabre design the Engineers now have for their children they had previously sired. My only speculation as to why they want the eggs is for our genetic material, but that is a guess, although educated it is a guess. As to your questions i would say that the first two are irrelevant, the mutants would be cannon fodder and a way of expelling a percentage of the population. As to you other question I would suggest the following... - A Xenomorph born would have the ability, as soon in Alien and hypothesized by myself, to convert a host into an egg incubating a Royal Facehugger, thus siring a Queen (marries Prometheus-Alien-Aliens-Alien3 together).

@BigDave. You said "Yes very bizarre idea and one Snorky kind of goes with, and one that while it seems very difficult method it cant be ruled out... especially if we ignore all movies after Alien and look at the deleted Scene in Alien." Yes indeedy. Alot of people seem to forget sometimes that "the deleted scene" in Alien, actually became a part of the film in the directors cut. That means, it's canon!

Btw, in Prometheus, Holloway looks like he's turning into a face hugger. In the scene, where they go back to the temple, after he's been infected, he's slumped on the floor, with all kinds of lumps and bumps under his skin. Those lumps and bumps remind me of a face huggers tail. I know i know, i'm nuts.

There's also the (often overlooked or not-considered) possibility that the Deacon gets infected by the Hammerpede. - Deacon has pink gums, suggesting, if anything, that it has human/engineer-like blood, while the Hammerpede has blood that is downright weaponized. - Deacon lacks many of the segmented or worm-like characteristics in it's appearance and lifecycle, while the Hammerpede is basically a traditional facehugger lacking almost everything that was present in the Deacon's parent organism (Trilobyte, or 'Cuddles'). - Traditional Xenomorph lifecycle (read: as we know it) parallels many of the characteristics of worm/insect behavior, and that's a very short amount of time to evolve those traits without having them introduced. - Deacon is left alone on a planet where the only other known living organism is a mouth-raping fanged worm with acidblood. Seriously. Nothing but those two left alone with nothing better to do than either scream profanity at each other or make sweet love to each others word-holes. EDIT: I could actually go on all day supporting this hypothesis. - Xenos have six fingers / Deacon has five. Suggests a trait that wasn't reinforced. - Deacon lacks a tail / Xenos tails are segmented and weaponized, as are the facehuggers. These traits aren't seen in the entire Deacon lifecycle. - Humanlike bones in Facehuggers phenotype. Insinuates human and/or Engi DNA was introduced at some recent point in it's lineage, and seeing this paired with what is essentially the lower 90% of a Hammerpede's body, along with it's overall behavior, strength, and physiology is, to me, pretty damned convincing evidence of some meaningful manner of intermingling between the Deac and Pede gene pool. - The Xenomorph's appearance carries artifacts and possible beneficial traits of the Engineers genetically altered 'body suit' armor. The only organism that appeared 'bio-mechanical' to me in Prometheus was the Engineers, and more specifically, their 'suits'...which in lieu of any real explanation aside from visual clues, was essentially their own modified flesh (explaining the lack of a 'seam' between their hands, feet, and their 'suits'). If the Xenos were, in fact, the product of a lineage that included Engineer DNA, it would be no surprise then that they, too, would be the only OTHER organism that looked decidedly 'bio-mechanical'. Wouldn't you agree?

"Xenos have six fingers / Deacon has five. Suggests a trait that wasn't reinforced." That means they are inbred then ;) On a serious note yes some interesting ideas, but i do think that the Xeno has been around prior to the Deacon and thus the Deacon is not the Mother to the Xenos but rather a end product/evolution of the Xeno Organism. As far as the Engineers suits yes they appear Bio Mechanical and as i have said on other threads, i liken them to say how we would wear a fur coat it is just worn as a item of clothing. But what if when we put on the Fur Coat it joins to our skin and body and acts just like the Fur did with the original creature it was cut from. Thats how the Engineers suits work. Well as far as i have gathered. But yes the actual Space Jockey Suit does have some things in common with the Xeno and who knows maybe the reverse engineered the Space Jockey suits from Xenos?

"On a serious note yes some interesting ideas, but i do think that the Xeno has been around prior to the Deacon and thus the Deacon is not the Mother to the Xenos but rather a end product/evolution of the Xeno Organism." Why? The 'tomb' depiction of the 'Xeno' at best resembled a Deacon, and at worst was too ambiguous to resemble either one to point of any measure of certainty. Obviously the 'goo' has a purpose, and that purpose tends toward results that resemble a weaponized version of it's host, and if the host is humanoid, it will likely resemble (after a generation or two) a Xeno/Deacon. I'm not arguing that something like a Xenomorph never existed, but that the characteristics in what we KNOW of Xenomorphs insinuate that, at some point, a Hammerpede was involved. You only need to look at the physiology of the facehugger and the acid blood of the Xeno to see this in context, as neither of those traits were anywhere to be found (or made known) outside of the Hammerpede. Cut and dry. Hammerpede (pay close attention to the lower 90%) [img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vTakXKoQ4tc/T9Y3B5nMeDI/AAAAAAAAA4g/VVwxKS1y3IY/s640/ALIEN+PROMETHEUS+HAMMERPEDE+WORM.jpg[/img] Facehugger (same as above) [img]http://terrordaves.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/alien_facehugger_001_1197062102.jpg[/img] "Thats how the Engineers suits work. Well as far as i have gathered." Gathered from where? I'd love to see this, because it's counter-intuitive to their technology in almost every sense. When the Deacon ripped Grumpy open, you'd have expected his 'suit' to behave like any other suit and fall away from the wound. It didn't, and I firmly believe it was a deliberate artistic move. EDIT: The only piece of the 'suit' I've gathered that attaches seperately is the helmet. Also interesting to note is that the suits seen by themselves in the halls are -not- the same suit being worn by the 'naked' engineer; they're analogous (or possibly identical) to those that attach themselves to the engineers when they 'strap in' to the pilot's chair. [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9o4YRxyjl5I/T9YbM9yBnFI/AAAAAAAADBI/bcesDwkzot0/s1600/Prometheus+space+jockey+engineer+pilot2+pics.jpg[/img] Seems a bit odd that they'd wear a suit over a suit, if the suit wasn't already equitable with their own bare skin. I mean, they wear these things in hypersleep...

Yes the Hammerpede does have some traits of the Face Hugger, maybe because of the Xeno DNA? But so does Shaws Squid and ok we never saw Acid in Shaws Squid but then again we never saw it get wounded. But still yes we can not rule out that the Hammerpede and Deacon somehow get involved to produce the Xeno. And yes the Mural does look like the Deacon more than a Xeno, and this goes with Ridley saying its where Mommy meets Daddy and the Progenitor. The Mural also has Traditional Xeno Face Huggers below it so maybe the Xeno Organism in the Mural gives rise to the Face Hugger. But then Ridley contradicts such events by suggesting the Derelict had been on LV 223 for a long time and even went as far to say it landed on LV 426 a few hundred years prior to the Events of the outbreak on LV 223 some 2000 years ago, and that the Derelict had a Cargo of Eggs. Now even if i am mistaken and the few hundred was within a few hundred years of and not prior then that would imply that the Derelict landed with a Cargo of Eggs on LV 426 between 2300 to 1700 years prior to the events of Prometheus circa 2093/94 End of the day its so ambiguous that really only Ridley knows he idea of where and when the Xeno came from.

As far as the Engineer goes the Sacrificial one had no Suit he was near naked and the Elders had robes on. At some point they developed a item of clothing that bonded with their bodies such is the advancement of their technology. I would assume this is for a reason. And that Engineers who are on the Homeworld would not wear such suits. The Last Engineer suit is just a advanced form of this in my opinion. [img]http://images.usoutdoor.com/usoutdoorstore/products/full/q_5_4hd_hs_ignite_bkn_07.jpg[/img] The Space Jockey suit is like this... [img]http://oceansdivers.com/wp-content/gallery/scuba-self-contained-underwater-breathing-apparatus/scuba_diving_equipment.jpg[/img] But also could be just their version of [img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f-SmJKK78z4/TaBiMhQr68I/AAAAAAAAAfI/MKGZJ2glmO4/s1600/suit1.jpg[/img] More likely a suit that combined both functions. The Pilot Suit in chair is similar but like say our version of this. [img]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/xplanes/images/outf-figures.jpg[/img] Thats what i think anyway.

As far as the bas relief in the ampule room is concerned, I agree that the xeno-esque figure (the one that is depicted quasi-crucified) resembles both the traditional xeno and the "deacon". Its difficult to decide which entity its supposed to depict. However, we mustn't forget the other pieces of artwork in the ampule room (the 2 frescos on the ceiling). One of the frescos CLEARLY depicts a hand/arm that is analogous to the hand/arm of the traditional xeno (shown in Alien). We dont get a great look at it in prometheus (because it is deteriorating), but the concept art book has a nice full page print of said fresco. First of all, a traditional xeno egg (analogous to the ones shown in Alien) is depicted. Second of all, a xeno-esque hand is depicted to the side/behind the egg in question. Now...this hand/arm is identical to the hand/arm of the traditional alien/xeno seen in the film Alien. The "deacon" and the "alien" have very obvious differences in the hand/ arm region. No question, the hand/arm depicted in one of the frescos in the ampule room is that of the creature seen in the film Alien. What does this mean? as far as im concerned, this is just more evidence of the fact that the traditional xeno does not evolve from/post-date the deacon. In addition, the eggs seen in Alien existed prior to the adventures of shaw/david and co. (the bulk of the events that transpire in prometheus). Have any of you guys examined the piece of artwork im referencing (the fresco of the egg and xeno hand/arm)? Do you see what im getting at?

Yes i agree and it adds with Ridleys Comments..... About the Derelict and timeline and it had Eggs and thus the Deacon is a Evolution of the Xeno and a predecessor. Also Ridleys comments about Mommy meets Daddy may be misleading to assume its about the Xeno, when it means the Deacon. And Lindelofs the movie is about the Progenitor again left ambiguous but does not have to be about the Xeno. The movie is about the Progenitor of the Deacon and not the Xeno.... but what else is it about as far as Progenitor goes..... ENGINEER = HUMAN PROGENITOR maybe thats what he meant but in a context to keep us thinking it could be about the Events of Shaws Baby to Deacon in relation to Xeno.

Big Dave Do you not think there is a need to develop a theory on the origins of the Xenomorph and their role in engineer society based solely on what happens in prometheus and alien (specifically the directors cut of alien) forgetting the rest of the alien films ?

I would like to think so. And i do hope that Prometheus 3 makes the connection, we dont have to see no Xenos all over the place. Only some kind of flash back, or Mural or even Dialog where they simply explain more about the Xeno and there connection with it. Seems to be Bio Weapon, but where from, how come and why.

Bigdave Do you think that all the homages paid to the rest of the alien series means that Ridley is using what is known about the xeno's(from a2 to a4) as background info for xeno's ? For example does it mean it mean we will find a queen/hive somewhere in P1 - p3 or will we only find warrior xeno's finally reaching maturity and injecting egg morphing goo . I know you don't have the answers on this(yet !!!!). My point is will it not be easier to theorise about the xenomorph origins once this question is answered ? And indeed the engineer civilisation ? Let me just say this : it doesn't matter to me one way or another if Ridley uses all the alien movies as background info for xenomorph behaviour / ability / lifecycle or only alien . All that matters to me is that we etablish what is the case regarding this. Why is this so important to me ? Well in the ambiguity discussion craigamore noted that there was speculation that the facehugger inserts a viral agent into its host wkich uses the host to create an embryo.. I dont recall any mention of an embryo in alien itself. Am I wrong bigdave ? If this is the case bigdave could it be possible that the virus in the ampules is in fact what the embryo forces down its host throat ? Directly turning your innards into a chestburster ? This is just an example of what I am getting at . To me personally it doesn't matter whether its a virus or embryo from a preferential view only that we know which way ridley went as to establish possible theories on the xenomorph origins or anything else that we might theorise on. Congrats on your new title. Well deserved !!!! And so to all other people promoted. Thanks to ALL the staff for this blog . It is really appreciated !!!!(are you all programmers ?? YES I AM JEALOUS !!! LOOL !!!) I expect to get noisy around here as the DVD is released . I am guessing a lot of my theories will be broken down to its DNA core !!!! Oh yes It doesn't matter to me if we see xeno's in P1 - p3 .( ok ok I would like to see a xenomorph in its final adult lifecycle where I am guessing the skin is no longer translucent. ) I guess the additional 40 minutes will answer a lot of questions.