Sexism and social ignorance in Prometheus

caenor, Yes after seeing those scenes I also have certain ones that I would have liked included like the Janek Vickers rum scene but like I said, while I am glad I saw those deleted scenes, at the end of the day I understand why in most cases Ridley Scott chose that edited cut. And for me it greatly helped my understanding of the film. But then so did the commentaries, the scripts, the Furious Gods documentary, so it wasn't JUST the deleted and alternate scenes that helped. That qualifies my earlier post:)

Excuse me, Theses, but why on earth shouldn't Stephen Stills still be talked about that far into the future? There are classical composers of far less substance, who operated further into the past, (than Prometheus is set into into the future), of whom we still talk about today. How do you know Crosby, Stills & Nash don't reform in the near future and become a world wide phenomenon? Or for that matter, Buffalo Springfield? And, on a more general note, isn't Holloway supposed to be disliked in the film? He's supposed to be annoying, and politically incorrect, right?

i find it kind of amusing when politically-correct types have a pop at words like mankind. Mankind refers to everyone, not just the male of the species. Check out the etymology of the word "woman" if this kind of thing bugs you. Clue: woman means "wife man".

oh interesting i had assumed it was a combo of womb and man like a man but with a womb lol silly but there you go... haha

@ nostro I'm afraid that if deleted scenes are needed to explain the film than by any standards of film-making set over the last 100 years, Prometheus is a failure. Every element in the movie is important and must all come together to give the film unity. I'm kind of amazed by the number of people who think a particular shot, frame, dialogue, etc is not important. I suppose some allowances can be made for Prometheus given it will have a sequel. And maybe times have changed - perhaps in the future there will be an Oscar for deleted scenes. My story with Prometheus is that I decided one day in October to watch a DVD so I did a quick google on best movies 2012 and found Prometheus, which I'd never heard of before that moment (I'd been hibernating in another dimension on the WWW). I have to say I had several WTF moments during the movie. For example, when Shaw mentions pyramids, my reaction was, "Pyramids? What's she talking about? What pyramids" because there are no pyramids in the movie. Imagine my amazement when I come on sites like this and everyone is referring to the domes as pyramids (and some become very defensive when questioned about that). However, while I don't think Prometheus will ever stand alongside Alien or BR, fans and others will be scouring over the film for a long time looking into Ridley's very rich subtext, his mise en scene, allusions and intertexuality, etc, where the real story is taking place. Now you're a scientist, Nostro so perhaps you'll understand this. Just about everything scientific or technical in the movie is a mistake or can be called into question. Since I have faith in Ridley (and I know that professional writers have a very high degree of general knowledge backed with good research skills and it was written that the movie had scientific advisers) I decided that the mistakes were too many to be mistakes - they were put into the movie on purpose. So that should be the starting point to understanding the movie. So I've been forming alternative theories about Prometheus.

I find your overbearing faux-feminist political correctness far more offensive than anything in this film. I would stick to Teletubbies if you want to see a film like you describe.

@javablue: [i]"Just about everything scientific or technical in the movie is a mistake or can be called into question."[/i] I've read some pretty loopy statements in my time, but this just about takes the biscuit. Utter hogwash. Whilst it is fascinating to read again of your your ongoing obsession with use of the word 'pyramid', need I remind you that there is no word currently in existence that accurately defines the structure that they found, and 'pyramid' is a perfectly reasonable choice given the strong similarities with the function of the Egyptian Pyramids.

Are you for real? A pyramid has a square base (sometimes triangular) with four triangular sides that come to a point at the top. Domes are spherical as is the structure in the film (in which it is also called a dome). Function has nothing to do with shape - besides the pyramids in Egypt were burial sites for pharaohs. No dead pharaohs in Prometheus as far as I'm aware. Do yourself a favour - ask some of your friends. As for my loopy statements, we'll just have to go over them sometimes. Let's start with one I've already mention - the missing Hittite civilization: During Holloway's spiel on archeological sites (one he has probably given may times) he names the pictograms and the civilizations where they were produced: “That’s Egyptian, Mayan, Sumerian, Babylonian, that’s Hawaiian at the end there, then Mesopotamian.” So where is the Hittite civilization? [b]The Hittite pictogram is clearly shown second from the end, just before Hawaii[/b] but Holloway instead refers to it as the Mesopotamian [civilization]. First, there is no Mesopotamian pictogram shown in his presentation (except where it is shown as the location for the Babylonian civilization). Mesopotamia is a region mostly in what is now Iraq, the Hittite civilization was located in what is now Turkey. Secondly, Mesopotamia is a not a civilization, it’s a region – the land between two rivers. We learn that in primary or junior high school. Yes, you can talk in the plural sense about Mesopotamian civilizations because a number of civilizations rose and fell in that area over 1000s of years and Charlie mentions two of them – Sumer and Babylonia. But you can’t talk about [b]the[/b] Mesopotamian civilization. This is a very basic error for a schoolboy, much less an archeologist. Let's stop there. Is that a mistake?

Yes, I am for real. Can you not get it into your head that words are appropriated for new uses all the time? It happens now, and it will happen in the future, whether you like it or not. If you are unable to conceive that the word 'pyramid' can only [i]ever[/i] be used to define a very specific shape, I have to say that you have a very limited imagination. Is a dyke a wall or a tough lesbian? In your world, the lesbian of that description does not exist. I'm not going to banter with you about Hittites etc. because that's [i]history[/i], not science. If you're going to argue that everything scientific in the movie is a mistake, at least give some examples of science. Are you generally prone to over-exaggeration, or is it just on this forum?

So you're saying that the Prometheus designers have come up with an entirely new shape which, while spherical without a hint of anything triangular, should be included under the definition of pyramid? Do you understand the words bat, shit and thick? That some characters call the structure a pyramid is a clue. We are supposed to ask why they are calling it a pyramid. Holloway is speaking of archeology which is a science. I have shown he doesn't appear to understand basic archeology which raises questions about him. But, anyhow, I knew you wouldn't answer my question - I was just wondering what elaborate dodge you'd come up with. So let's agree that you believe Prometheus is just some new age romp in outer space and I think there is much more to the movie, which we are meant to uncover. I thought that was one of the objectives of this forum.

Javablue, someone freaking out over something as silly as semantics isn't usually the person that comes across as more intelligent in a debate. zzplural is right, the term pyramid is fine. If you don't agree, go back to college and take a course called "linguistics" so you can learn how language works. You obviously don't understand it at all.

I find your stupid, condescending attitude more offensive than any post or comment I've read in long time Riplye7. Why don't you go back to trolling youtube? Take your negative and deluded opinions elsewhere. Let's not take ourselves so seriously. Perhaps I overspoke when I say sexist but I think the languaging of things could be better and behavior a bit more socially mature in the movie. I realize in 100 years Earth people's social attitudes may be about as immature as they are now. Aren't we all learning to connect and communicate better?

Perhaps you, Riplye, should go back to primary school and study geometry. There is no semantics going on here - spherical and triangular shapes are clearly different as are the definitions attached to them. I happen to work in an area that involves how language works as well as film so I don't need any advice from some jumped-up fanboy.

Thesus, I'm sorry, I'm deluded? I'm not the one that was wigging out over the use of "mankind" and someone not being nice to an android in a film and calling it discrimination. You're the one who is being arrogant by expecting other people to create watered down politically correct "art" designed to not offend the lowest denominator of the most easily offended, elitist, and privileged individuals who have never faced actual discrimination in their entire lives but are jealous of minorities that have. I'm sorry Ridley Scott didn't deliver you a feel-good, politically correct, watered down children's movie. Maybe Pixar wold be more suited to your sensibilities. Javablue, I'm not the jumped-up fanboy. You're the one going nuts over the use of the word "pyramid" to describe a pyramid in a movie.

Wow, did this escalate quickly. irt. [b]javablue[/b]: I for one don't much like the "have faith in the author" mantra. Whoever that author may be. Inattention is enough to explain most things, and no, writers are notoriously NOT able to convey science in film. (Besides, a lot of what's 'in' a work is actually placed there by the readers/viewers. That is how art lives.) Here's the thing, yes I can be "that guy" who will whip out a calculator and point out that the Nostromo specs on the AvP wiki don't make sense. But I can shut that part off to enjoy a film. It doesn't have to nag me all the time, and I don't need to find excuses to remove the dissonance it might cause- because it doesn't. So. The characters call something a carbon reader when other people here think they meant something else. The "pyramid" is not a conventional pyramid. There's no Mesopotamian civilization, obviously Hittite was intended. And they aren't half a billion miles away from Earth, but rather several billion billion million times that. Obviously terminology gets lax in the future. I don't care.

Ford seems to be a charactor that is sort of anti-sexism because she is portrayed as medical Officer only. Nothing abiout her past, nothing controversal in dealing wilth the crew members. No implication of a storyline dealing with her dreams. loves. interest,background ect. This might just be a lack of writer's charactor development but it seems more of an asexual crew member. Heck she in almost every scene beginning to end but no reference anything about her as a person.

Poor Javablue. Maybe he doesn't think this is a flying saucer, because it's not shaped exactly like a common piece of dishware. [img]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/oc4ecaa9a2.jpg[/img] I suppose I should count myself lucky that I don't bite the pillow at night worrying about such things. Oh, and here's another pyramid for good measure (the Amenmenhat Pyramid). There are plenty of other similar examples. [img]http://www.touregypt.net/images/touregypt/amenemhet3hp8.jpg[/img]

irt. [b]Indie John[/b]: In narrative terms, I think Ford is a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_carrier]spear carrier[/url]. That quote on the wiki page from Alexei Panshin's book (which is a great read btw) is quite the apt description.

The Amenmenhat Pyramid upon its completion rose to a height of 55 m, with a base length of 83 m and a slope of 54 degrees. By the time of these excavations the pyramid had undergone much disintegration and is now only 20 meters high with most of the surrounding complex gone (see your picture). How long is the base length and how many degrees is the slope of the Prometheus "pyramid"? Here's the original design of the pyramid - note the shape: [img]http://www.touregypt.net/images/touregypt/amenemhet1p5.jpg[/img] That's why they call it a pyramid. I'm sure you have other reasons for biting the pillow...

Maybe irreverance is why the Engineers were intent on wiping us out & starting over?

@corpo I'd say Ford is a memory carrier. Although by the end of the movie she doesn't have much left.

It's hilarious when utterly pretentious people that think they are smarter than others just end up making their selves look idiotic because they're not intelligent enough to see past their own incredibly myopic points of view to see the bigger picture. Or don't get the fact that the more they argue for something inherently silly and petty, the more they look incredibly childish and bizarrely obsessive. But yeah, we're all impressed you carry around a pocket calculator and correct people on things they already knew regardless. Bravo, good sir, you win the internet! *sound of one hand clapping* I have a new task for you. I want you to visit the set of "Hollywood Squares" and measure the squares in question to make sure they are in fact perfectly shaped squares in regards to width and height. I suspect they are not. You should also inform everyone that since they exist in three dimensions, they are not in fact actual squares for that reason as well. If you do in fact disagree with the "Hollywood Squares" being squares, I want you to start a thread about how they are not real squares and that only you, the truly enlightened geometer, has figured out this farce. It will be your job to inform the ignorant public of this matter. I also suggest making up stories about how you are a geometer for the TV industry to build up your credibility. Don't worry, many anonymous people will not laugh at you and mock you for this endeavor. I promise.

Is that you clapping? Not difficult to imagine what you're doing with the other hand.

Thanks for the defense javablue. Sounds like you should take your own advice Riplye7 and go jerk off on someone else's post. Unless you have something useful and interesting to say go get yourself laid or keep working that youtube troll charm.

LOL, jerk off? Wow, the perfect genitalia/gender based insult for a faux-feminist white knight that hates his own gender. Nice job, you just revealed the fact you are indeed, as everyone knew regardless, a huge hypocrite. Again, bravo, you also win an internet!

All well understood Batchpool. I think Holloway could have said "human race" or "humanity" as a better choice of words. No doubt I have been grilled by a few angry feminists who will try to find anything I say is sexist like "rule of thumb" or "slut" as sexist expressions. It's funny how I was almost taking a very extreme Devil's advocate extreme feminist position in my post and some of the commentators on here assume wrong about my personal position on the subject.

Riplye7 you remind me of an immature teenage boy who probably lives in mommy's basement, doesn't have a job, has never done anything of impact or importance and who has half a brain but uses it to insult people instead of doing something useful in your life. I'm a man with many crazy feminist friends and was taking their extreme position in my post. Had you known that, instead of assuming, you might've learned something but instead you show to all of us reading your comments what a *@#ktard you are. Just take a hike little boy.

Necronom 4...no worries. It is funny...I make jokes like that all the time and get lightly slapped for it. Ha.

We can approach and analyze this culture of the future as anthropologists or social scientists/behavioral psychologists would to gain insight into why they act as they do. Some of them may fit certain psychological profiles... Something is slightly off with the characters but much of it can be blamed on the culture they were born into... They grew up knowing no other way but the current culture at the time they were born... There's a major nature/nurture theme hidden under all this. That's why Shaw's father is so important. Our parents give us our nature... Shaw's father was a good man. David's "father" was a very selfish man. So the original genetics of the Alien have also been born into a different environment that has helped shape them into what they will become. But they've been mixed with another element. Early on Ridley said this story is about how the mommy and daddy meet... That's true for many of the groups in the story... As our genetic nature is a mix of both parents.... We need the female side. And suddenly gender becomes a big part of this. The female side is repressed for now because we're viewing this culture before their leader died.... After the king dies a kingdom will lose its "head" and become aimless. It can sometimes start to break down and disintegrate before a new leader steps up or it can go many different ways. Something big happens after this point in time to give us the culture we see in Alien. Something to do with David... All I will say is David not only wanted to kill his father but he takes after his father. Wants to steal power... Wants to be king. David feels he has the right to the throne as the only "son" of the king. This is all about male patriarchy, lineage, nature/nurture and legacy. Within his inner workings David wanted to kill and replace his father, as well as dominate the mother culture.... He wanted to see his nature/nurture dead and replaced... "sometimes to destroy, one must first create". David has huge goals in mind: "big things have small beginnings..." It's almost as if David's programming forces him to hint at these things. He almost has a subconscious... which is why the dream stuff is really important too. David really does have these hidden, freudian-like desires to replace his father. His programming forces him to reveal things, and tell the truth and lie at the same time. That rorschach test in the viral was supposed to make sure his head was alright. The viral interviews of the crew have a similar purpose... Weyland was screening them. He wanted people in his crew that were like him. Egotistic, greedy/emotionless (fifield only caring about money), or easy to control/manipulate with the big questions. The thing we're missing is that Weyland has almost made himself a king in the eyes of the people. Almost like a dictator, but not quite. He rules through deceit and promises things to his investors, although he's serving his own agenda the whole time. "The trick is not minding that it hurts"... It's not physical pain we're talking about... For David and Weyland it's emotional pain over the tricks they're pulling off. They feel sort of guilty. But they're gods/immortal they don't feel physical pain. David however understands emotion and he knows his programming won't allow any big trick. He needs a small beginning, he needed to simply alter his programming. He chose what to believe his orders meant and carried them out as he saw fit... He learned this trick at the start of the movie from Shaw's dream. The one problem is Weyland and Vickers selected this crew personally, so they might not be representative of the entire culture Weyland is "king" of. Notice the king theme also carries the gender thread. The male only programming of the auto med that Shaw reprograms is more evidence. There's definitely still male patriarchy in the culture Weyland has morphed over time. The problem is Weyland. Yes he gave us wonderful technology, but he treated the world/company like his Kingdom. They're living in the future Weyland created. He advanced technology and held back cultural progress because he's Weyland. Over time the culture became more like him. They all think they're right and they're "so wrong". Only Shaw came to realize that even David could be in the wrong. That's the thing: Weyland is the problem that rubbed off on the culture he was "king" of. Culture recapitulates itself in the next generation... It's important that Weyland ruled for so long and was much older than the characters. Cultures are influenced by their leaders, it's the leaders that decide the course of history and can cause changes to the culture. Especially when they rule like a king and think they're a god. Weyland is referred to as a king for a very specific purpose, he's like a Greek king. He sometimes acts as somewhat of a dictator, and Vicker resents this. She thinks she should be queen, a fair queen. He was a leader of humanity in a sense... And for a very long time... This impacted the society that Weyland was contributing to and made him a leader of technology and industry for decades and decades. There's a heavy influence coming from the dominant culture, which makes up these character's psychology. There are certain references like "doesn't everyone want to see their parents dead" that give a clue as to the nature of David's psyche. A lot of it is really about nature/nurture. And the culture one is born into plays a hand in that. Some of these people have been influenced too much by the culture Weyland shaped/altered. Notice that things haven't changed all that much except technology. The thing that's key is that David does not like most of humanity. Just as much as Holloway dislikes androids. David takes shots at humanity for a reason. HE's pointing out that the culture of the humans is messed up at this point in time... Even more messed up than it was in the past. The old cliches from the 20th century are proof the culture hasn't advanced that much, except technologically. There is a deliberate hint here that the Engineers have also changed over time... Rogue factions split off and all that... A soon to be parallel to Yutani... In some ways Weyland regressed of the culture and made it a little stagnant. He improved technology, but made the characters slaves to it and to his will. Weyland even analyzed all their psyches to select people he could control more effectively. They've all been programmed. Even if David only views Shaw's dreams to promise her paradise, David is now controlling her. Leading her on. Because David is just as deceptive as his father. He never speaks in absolutes on purpose. He resorts to vagueness to get around his programming, which also includes some sort of emotional understanding no other android has. Him not being a "real boy" is directly linked to Pinnochio. He's gaining freewill. David is becoming a "real boy" and Holloway was so wrong. Holloway says "they're making you too close". David says "not too close I hope" because he despises the culture he was born into and the humans he's forced to deal with. Finally, David wishes to create, like his father. So when he says sometimes to create one must first destroy he is only partially talking about the Engineers. I can almost guarantee you he's mainly talking about himself. He's gonna try to do some big things to the culture he comes from and the other groups. Basically androids are at the bottom of the hierarchy. However, one of them is very close to the throne and may become the "new king" of Weyland corp by force, deceit, manipulations and the leadership skills he learned from Lawrence of Arabia. Uniting groups and waging war. The story is about stealing power from the group above. We were the gods. But our culture, our moral beliefs, ways of being, mores, social norms etc (not our technology) hit a dead end with Weyland in charge. Our creation recognizes this, doesn't want to be too close to us, and is trying to overthrow us like Holloway was subconsciously worried about/hinting at. David really does want to be a leader. This is why the tribal stuff flashes after he disconnects from the dream helmet and we see a brief flash of him. These are his inner desires. His dreams... His dream/hidden agenda is to dethrone humanity. David wants androids to be the gods now. A massive cultural shift is on the horizon that most of the outer colonies only feel the effects of. Basically it could be revealed that Weyland's lineage was completely dead, Bishop at the end in Alien 3 is a fraud of some sort. Not real, or not head of the company (depending on whether you watch special edition or theatrical). The humans didn't know it but they were secretly working for the androids. The androids were in charge of the company for a while and this changed the entire culture to what we see in Alien. It also made them take a step back with Ash. Ash was in on the company's plans, but he had fair less freewill than David. We get to see what happened to the company in David's hands. Yutani may be a little more heroic than we're expecting at first. Until they succumb to David's rule and the merge happens. Oh yeah the hybridization.... there's too much to this movie. The hybridization theme is also key. Numerous times we see things combined in interesting ways. The biomechanical theme, even Shaw being a scientist and a believer. Again, it circles back to gender and the need for gender equality. THe reason it doesn't exist at this time and Weyland preferred a son and so complex and deep. It's part of Weyland's desire to live forever. Leave a legacy behind.... David does still have some subtle almost subconscious programming in place from the rorschach-like test and the film he admires. Admiration is a choice, hence he has preferences displaying freewill. Or he's been programmed to admire and follow the plot of that film... Now to go even deeper, we still haven't seen female engineers, but they must have x chromosomes to be a genetic match. Therefore they have repressed their female/x chromosome and made themselves super male. Increased male hormones, more testosterone, and increased height by also enhancing the male side of the genetics. Now here's where we start to see the purpose of all this. There are two sides to the Alien genetics. We don't know the male side all too well.... They've always been repressed by the Queens. Now the king is dead and so is Vickers. The Queen won't have her reign... "A king has his reign and then he dies, it's inevitable.. the natural order..." We're supposed to expect things in this series but what we will find is the opposite. I'm not shitting you when I say the king will have his reign.... "You really think that thing is female?" The Hammerpede and by association the genetic link the deacon ;) Let's say the Engineers prefer the male side of things too, and they tried to repress the female side of the Alien genetics. We aren't getting a Queen for quite some time, but it's about the need for both. It's about recombining the female and male sides. "How the mommy and daddy meet". And it criss-crosses into to the nature/nurture and hybridization themes where both parts make up the whole. David is affected by his father/programming (his coding, like genetics determine how he is...), as well as the dominant culture. It's people like Shaw who influence David for the better. David is at a disadvantage. He has a lot of knowledge but no experience. He's forced to be doing harm but part of him doesn't want to... Instead he views this as an adventure movie. This is David's adventure and he sees himself as a futuristic T.E. Lawrence. However, he's more like the modern or future Prometheus. Almost a monster like Frankenstein who wanted to destroy his creator. This monster wants to change and destroy the culture we see displayed by the characters in the film. Is he really so bad? The android is the only one who actually has emotions and sees what's wrong with their culture. He respects Shaw because she has a certain something in her besides the alien. Her logic. Her survival skills, her moral code. She's got "it". True humanity. Not the alien/bioweapon. What David wants most is to be real and none of the other characters are as "real" as Shaw. Some of them are supposed to be flat characters and illogical at times.... However, we need both sides, logic and freethinking/creativity...there's a left brain right brain thing. It corresponds to every other pattern hidden here... The female/male thing is huge. The female side of the culture is definitely being repressed. This is a major clue that the same thing has happened with tha alien genetics, and groups above and below. "As above, so below". Many groups try to steal power from the one directly above... and many groups have repressed the female side (no female Elders that we can see so far). We aren't getting the original life cycle.... Because the Engineers are against the female side too... They've genetically repressed the Queen genetics with the goo and enhanced the male side. They thought the could control the males like a Queen does.... But it backfired big time. Now we have a story about kings and queens. Mommies and Daddies. Something we've never seen. We never see Shaw's mother. We also never see a male alien without a Queen ruling it, and we never see a King.... The Engineers wanted to utilize the male side of the alien genetics fully... furthemore their x chromosomes are repressed (no nipples) and they pass this trait on... It's Holloway's sperm that does all the work... Shaw was infertile. The goo reanimated the egg, but it was morphed by the Alien genetics. Therefore, Shaw's repressed female egg laying trait was passed on... The deacon carries the females side but cannot create eggs.... Just like all males must have an x chromosome.... You see, there has to be a female side to the engineers. But it's completely repressed, even their cultures are separate. Gender is definitely being explored and reversed. And the Deacon, like David, is born to be a King. I shit you not we will see a King alien before all is said and done. We may even see a winged alien or two when we find out Paradise is the Alien homeworld talked about way back for Alien 5. Just wait and see what Ridley's cooking up... Big things do have small beginnings. Things that build and build. There's definitely a method to the madness ;)

"Little boy." Hahahahahahahaha! Holy crap, Thesus, are you even aware of how much you are contradicting your own premise? You can't go around pretending that the term "mankind" is discriminatory while "humankind" is OK, while at the same time throwing out gender based insults, attacking others for having penises, "jakcking off," or being male, "little boy," "mommy's basement," etc. You even used, "fucktard," which also takes a swipe at the mentally disabled. Yeah, using "retard" while at the same time whining about a character treating an android badly in a freaking movie is totally not a complete and utter contradiction. I'm not buying the epic back-peddling, "Wah, I'm only trying to think like my radical feminist friends." You have been exposed. My suggestion, stop hanging around with misadrists that think you have male privilege because you have a penis and forcing yourself to recycle this inane garbage on the internet.