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even Cameron thinks part 1 didn't add up logically.

Prometheus Forum Topic

djamelameziane

MemberFacehuggerApr 20, 20145521 Views68 Replies

Well it seems even james cameron has joined the 'it didn't add up logically team' now! http://www.kpopstarz.com/articles/88550/20140418/prometheus-2-james-cameron-scott-ridley-avatar.htm assuming it's real of course. The lovers got to be a bit convinced by now eh? :P

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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oduodu
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Not surprised by his reaction

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Fleshvessel
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I couldn't care less what James Cameron thinks. Next to resurrection, Aliens was the worst in the lot. This guy took a beautiful and carefully crafted horror classic and turned it into an all-out American action movie.

Cameron can't compute because Prometheus is an original creation, not some contrived, cliche' turd like Avatar. (See Shogun, Dances with Wolves, The Last Samurai, shall I go on?)

@James Cameron- thanks for T2, now kindly fuck off. Thank you.

 

THETRICKISNOTMINDINGITHURTS
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Major Noob
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Ha ha while I was editing the nastiness out of my post Fleshvessel hit it on the head!

Thankfully, Cameron is not the last word in fine film making. If I wanted his version of logic I'd watch more than the 30 minutes of Avatar I did watch. So no, he hasn't altered my view. 

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Ruhaniya
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Bug Hunts rrrRight!?

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Something Real
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Though I'm a huge fan of Cameron's work, I've never truly liked his spin on the Alien universe - far too much gun-play and not enough suspense/mystery. If this girl wants romance and beauty in a film, she'll go with Cameron; if she wants something that's going to make her think and keep her up at night, she'll go with Scott. That's the beauty of there being many good directors in the world! :)
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oduodu
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"@James Cameron- 
thanks for T2, 
now kindly fuck off. 
Thank you."
Fleshvessel 
3 hours 
after reading that 
I am still LMFAO !!!

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Cremildo
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I count myself - proudly - as a lover.

 

And no, I'm not "convinced" of anything.

 

Cameron's opinion is just that, an opinion.

If his word is gospel for the haters (how convenient!), what's going to happen if another filmmaker actually says the exact opposite?

And further yet: he didn't even elaborate on his opinion. No reason to be bothered by his unsubstantiated remark.

[url=http://mulhollandcinelog.wordpress.com/]http://mulhollandcinelog.wordpress.com/[/url]
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Batchpool
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Talk about the pot calling the bloody kettle. Cameron does’nt like A3 because Fincher altered what Cameron had created  with Aliens. So let me see, Scott does Alien, which is an original work whilst Cameron alters an idea. Dan O ‘Bannon /John Carpenter have a knife scene in Dark Star which was an original idea, for Cameron to alter. Prometheus is based on original ideas. P2 requires original ideas. Some people just can’t take a hint.

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Anunnaki50
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Liked Avatar but its too damn long even steals some of the music directly from one of my favs Apocalypto with my native indian peoples. When I heard the music it made me realize that his soundtrack wasnt original. Terminater 2 is good, i dunno hes good at action movies with CGI blue people but not a thinking and mystery type of movie like Prometheus. His comments are moot just like dj melziamane.... I cant even pronounce his name without getting frustrated by the spelling.

The Anunnaki were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, mighty men of high reno

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Redant
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@Something Real,

Whats your favorite part of Prometheus?

Ladies and Gentlemen such harsh tones for Cameron. While I do not want to get booed out of the debate I would like to point out that Cameron is exercising his criticism in a respectable way. It is in private that I would like to hear what he has to say about the film.

I have said this before and I will say it again. We all know that the producers screwed with Ridley on the budget for this film and there were problems with the script that could not be reconciled after Ridley had started to MAKE A Much LARGER MOVIE...well it got downsized quite a bit as the producers no longer wanted to spend the money for our beloved artist's vision.

That is show business for you!

Forget about all that bull Sh!t. Ok the producers were screwing Ridley’s create reputation so they got exactly what they deserved back.

You know the stupid part of all of this is that when the movie took in global profits it still made an impressive half a billion dollars. Not bad for a movie that has a less than average script, many scenes that have too much hit the digital cutting floors, and yes those damned plot holes so big you could fly a space ship through.

Ridley’s films have grossed well over 5 billion dollars adjusted for inflation…Alien made 104 million in 1979. Today that 104 million would be close to a billion. Just one film.

Do you know what it is to go Ridley Scott and say some dumb stupid ass hole thing about spending 50 or 75 more million to get back another easy billion and half on a three movie deal.

People! The producers of Prometheus should have just showed up to the set and threw dung at everyone they were so crazy.

You would have to be out of your fking mind not to trust Ridley to make Prometheus the way it needed to be made. Parts of the movie are a master piece as far as fine art is concerned. You all got to see things in this film never seen in the medium of film before. There was supposed to be so much much more in this film…don’t hate Cameron because he is telling the truth. Hate the stupid dumb producers for not trusting Ridley to make a film that likely would have had no equal for a long time.

When I watch Prometheus and I have watched it a couple dozen times all the way through, I can only imagine what we could have really saw had the producers not been so cheap and stupid.

These engineers are 15 maybe 20 foot tall highly evolved bio “synthetic” (engineer made) nano mechs, hundreds of thousands of years evolved.

You know what we got to see…some shit head in a cheap poly-rubber grey suit with plenty of ok FX painted makeup. Yeah we got screwed bad.

I have no doubt that Ridley could have pulled this off. What you saw in Prometheus were just a few of the sets. Most of the sets that were made after the movies budget got cut were just a bunch of little shit boxes so that the whole movie would not have to scrapped and wasted.

Ridley will never admit all of this because he has to be the true gentleman that he is and uphold the fine reputations of the actors in this movie. People have to get paid in this business to make a living.

Believe me the producers are going bat shit crazy because they realize now how bad they fked up a multi - billion dollar franchise that Scott so brilliantly and easily gave them and they did nothing but
insult him, insult his talent, his true vision.

Honestly, if you want to at least read a pretty great interpretation of what Prometheus could have been ask BigDave to write just one chapter from any part in the movie and you will understand just how incredible this movie was supposed to be.

For some thirty years I have enjoyed the scene in Alien when Cain has the face hugger on, Dallas says
yes yes cut it off! When that acid sprays from the digit incredible! That’s the genius of Ridley right there. All these other directors had a lot more money to work with and all of them together could not have put a film like Alien together.

My favorite scene in Prometheus is the reanimation of the head. For me this individual part in the movie is the finest thing in science fiction movie making. It is a singularly unique piece of fine art. I would have paid a full admission price just to see that one scene.

Honestly a lot of these producers are fking up the business of movie making bad. We need to let people buy into making a movie and cut out big producers if possible. I would be glad to pay full price right now for Prometheus 2 if Scott were to get the money first to best decide how it would be spent to make the next film and the next. Crowd sourcing is just as valid a way to produce art as already banked money. 

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brego
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Cameron is a great Writer and Director and deserves props....

As much as I love Ridley, I have to agree that certain aspects of Prometheus didnt make sense or are Logical.... Having said that Mining "Unobtainiam" from beneath the most populated area on the planet in Avatar instead of from the hundreds of giant floating hunks of rock floating around the planet does......

Just sayin.....

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Necronom 4
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Lets all imagine what kind of film Prometheus would have been if Cameron would have made it.

Lets put it this way, we wouldn't all be on this forum discussing the film because Cameron would have force fed us all the answers in his usual patronizing fashion.

The Space Jockeys would probably be giant, blue cat people.

The aliens would probably have been giant cockroaches.

And there would have undoubtedly been the usual "platoon of obnoxious marines."

Then, the obligatory brady bunch ending.

Avatar sums up Cameron in a nutshell; an overrated, overbearing, piece of pretentious cr@p from start to end.

The poster was good though!

 

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oduodu
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Imagine what a movie 
Prometheus would have 
Been if ridley scott had the
Final and only 
say in its making.

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Necronom 4
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@Oduodu; agreed. The producers and studio executives would do well to keep their beaks out and allow more creative freedom!

The poster was good though!

 

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Major Noob
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Redant, wow, beautifully put. I second everything you said.

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Membrane
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I am not one to post crass stuff, but when I hear opinions, I can't help but think of someone I know who always says, "Opinions are like a**holes.  Everyone has one and they almost always stink."

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Major Noob
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I'm just gonna condemn myself here and say that one of my favorite movies is Casino Royale, the 1968 James Bond spoof with David Niven as Bond. It's truly a mess, but a spectacular one and when I first saw it as a kid I had no understanding of the rules of film making, or story telling, it was just a surreal, super cool movie like no other and I love it to this day. The opening credits alone are a marvel, and the score is fantastic. It's just so absurd.

I don't think Prometheus suffered from the excess and ineptitude that Casino Royale did, but it's somewhat that movie's spiritual doppelgänger, you have to just let go and enjoy the ride. And I really don't think it was by accident. I do agree with everything Redant said, based on everything we've heard it suffered at the hands of commerce, but not necessarily stupidity. Even with too many cooks we still got a movie that is utterly unique in the realm of science fiction blockbusters. A gem.

I've enjoyed every James Cameron movie I've ever seen, with the exception of Avatar. But not one of them has captured my imagination and held it like Alien, or Prometheus. I'm perfectly happy to let logic have a holiday. Ridley Scott himself said that the beauty of Alien was that it defied logic. Why wouldn't he go for that again, on a larger scale?

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HiveMinded
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@MajorNoob "Ridley Scott himself said that the beauty of Alien was that it defied logic. Why wouldn't he go for that again, on a larger scale?"

^^ Exactly. The Alien defies logic. We can't completely understand the Alien by framing it with human anthropological/biological concepts...The Engineers are us, so there are many things we can learn simply by applying cross-cultural analysis techniques. However, the Aliens are supposed to be "Alien" to us, or at least strange/bizarre, possessing traits that are seldom seen in organisms on Earth. Traits that are truly alien to us. I think the Spacejockies were revealed to be much like us, genetically and anatomically speaking, so that it would be easier to understand their culture...

The original creature was only partially based on insects. The Alien's mode of reproduction was based on the parasitic wasp species that infects ants with a fungus, and turns the ants into zombie hosts for its young... The ants become confused and useless to their hive. The fungi starts to rule the ants mind, turning the ants into mindless zombies to their hosts.  The wasp uses the ant's body to produce its young.  The larvae will burst out of the ant's head, because the brain of the ants is infected first by the fungus... That's where the ants' genetic instincts are...In humans there are collections of nerves by the pancreas that produce "gut feelings", or intuitions, possibly instinct... Aliens might be able to burst out of organisms' heads, or their guts..  Cameron did a terrible thing when he compared their social organization/hivemind to ants... He got it all wrong.  I think they're more like wasps in some respects, as well as decomposers, part of the natural order of things, but alien to us and can't be pinned down to most living species' modes of behaviour. They're close to death at all times, so you can't kill them, part of their role in the natural order of things is to break life down as decomposers...The Marines are the ants. IF Cameron hadn't compared them to ants then maybe Alien social organization would be more like the parasitic wasps that turn ants into zombies...

I don't think we need all the answers just yet... The ability to rely on instincts might be important, Shaw has this "in her", she's a survivor. Instinct isn't guided by logic. It's not guided by intellect alone. Instinct is a natural part of the way things think. The Alien is the perfect organism, it doesn't rely on logic...It relies on instinct, and has perfect survival skills, amazing adaptive mechanisms/ defensive abilites, acid for blood "you don't dare kill the son of a bitch". I don't think David has all the answers...he had to draw interpretations on things. The adventure defies David's logic as well... David is a bit of an artist (we see him painting in the virals, he likes films, he's pseudo-emotional etc). David had to be able to interpret art, that's what the happy bday viral was all about...They made David able to perceive and interpret images in the happy birthday viral video, because the proper interpretation of the Engineer artwork could be key.. I think we're dealing with small pieces of a much larger picture.

Part of why Prometheus is so great, imo, is because it creates even more questions. It doesn't spell things out, or connect in a straight-forward, predictable manner.  It's more fun for me to learn things in stages and have all the potential clues to analyze; instead of being able to easily predict where things are going.  We know about the Engineers/Spacejockies now, but we still have many more mysteries.

If the big picture could be glimpsed already, or if the whole puzzle could be solved, then it wouldn't be fun seeing the answers to some of the questions play out.. It might not add up logically yet, because we don't have all the data. That's the way I look at it... The simplest most logical explantions are best, however you need all the data/observations accounted for..  You can start to "work out the broad strokes" like David, but even he only has access to a certain amount of data so far, doesn't have complete data about the Engineers and although he can make better interpretations than us he remains vague or ambiguous to cover what he knows/doesn't know... A big part of my overall theory is that David still doesn't know everything about the Engineers, only "the broad strokes" and hasn't formed a complete picture/interpretation of the data. I think the audience only has pieces of the puzzle so far, and in the sequel we would get a lot more data to work with, almost casting some things in Prometheus in a different light.

Ash: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.

Lambert: You admire it.

Ash: I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

Parker: Look, I am... I've heard enough of this, and I'm asking you to pull the plug.

Ash: [Ripley goes to disconnect Ash, who interrupts] Last word.

Ripley: What?

Ash: I can't lie to you about your chances, but... you have my sympathies.

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Major Noob
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That scene with Ash is one of the most chilling in the whole movie. Not just the words, but coming from a severed head drooling some material that looks like semen.

Prometheus is that sort of film that rewards any level of scrutiny, I think. I also think the universe, in Ridleys hands, is not bound to the Aliens story as Cameron told it. Or it will sidestep it. I think he's taking it back, and already the otherness on view is breathtaking. So what if the Engineers are humanoid? They're still quite cold and bizarre and if there's gonna be any human like beings in the Alien universe, it has to be them.

Inasmuch as I know the Morb was modeled after certain terrestrial life, I too don't see the bug connection. Or don't want to. And definitely don't have to, and yes that IS the brilliance behind this particular story, much of it can be whatever we want. Some things will never be answered. That's part of nature.

When you consider the logic, they actually went to some lengths to connect certain dots. But then, when they did, the answers weren't satisfactory for some. I want SOME clarity but only because I'm excited to have a better grasp. But yes, if we had the whole thing right now we probably wouldn't be talking. And I don't expect to ever have the whole picture. Or, if I do, I hope I get to savor it first for quite a while before Im satisfied.

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Something Real
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REDANT - I've two favorite segments in Prometheus. The first is the moment when the exploration crew has stepped foot onto the Engineer planet (LV...I forget) for the first time and is beginning to explore the area and the structures they'v discovered. There's something that I find extremely compelling about the whole feel of discovery and subtle fear that accompanies that section of the film. My second favorite segment is actually when the Engineer is awakened from hypersleep and Rapace's character begins shouting at him "Why do you hate us?!" "What did we do wrong?!". The look of shock, uncertainty, and confusion in that large man's eyes - despite their glassy nature - struck me as being quite human. Not only that, but it makes the Engineer seem as if he as no bloody clue what's going on! He's just awakened after 2,000 years to have a woman scream at him while an android is making a mockery of his language. It's unlikely he that understand English, and he displays the fact that he doesn't much care for David speaking to him in an extremely clear and decisive manner. It's simply a very complex scene which i enjoy attempting to disect! The runner-up to those segments is the moment in which Rapace's character has to remove the infant trillobite from her body via the med-capsule. That scene very nearly made this girl squirm out of her seat! I loved it! There was something incredily visceral about the whole affair! :)
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Necronom 4
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Cameron doesn't have the vision of great film makers like Kubric and Hitchcock, but Ridley does.

In the fullness of time, greatness is discovered, and that is how Prometheus will be viewed over time.

The flipside to that coin is that films like ALIENS - In the fullness of time - will be outed as being nothing more than overrated, hyped up, self indulgent sh!te!

I mean, if anyone requires proof of this, all they have to do is read most of the comments on this thread and other threads from members who are amongst the biggest fans of ALIEN and Prometheus in the world. Who were once fans of ALIENS (including myself.)

The poster was good though!

 

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Major Noob
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Hey N4 I totally agree with the Hitchcock parallel, which I think is really strong in Prometheus. Kubrick, too, but that's more obvious.

Cameron's a great film maker, no question, I enjoyed the hell out of Aliens too but its been overshadowed, now. It should be noted, to be fair, that he also said he was glad Prometheus was made, although in context the comment seemed a bit back handed. He is arrogant, but unlike Michael Bay he's earned it. Yes, he's known for big action films but at least they're coherent, whereas Bay is just juvenile.

And before the issue of coherence is brought up about Prometheus, I think for all its surreal fable spinning it was quite coherent. I had no problem understanding the basic story. The rest is up to the individual to decipher as they see fit. I think that was the whole point, sort of honoring the ambiguities that drove the popularity of Alien for 30 years, and expanding them.

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Necronom 4
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Noob; Ok, maybe i'm being a bit harsh on old Cameron, but i can't think of one good film he's made since T2.

The poster was good though!

 

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Something Real
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NECRONOM4 - It might be due to the fact that I'm a lady (and fairly girly), but I loved the Abyss and Avatar a great deal. Now, I know, they weren't Terminator 2 (that movie stands head and shoulders above nearly every other movie Cameron's made). That being said, there's a certain amount of, hmmm, let's say "emotion" that goes into each of Cameron's films. I firmly believe he wants to entertain his audiences and make them feel. Of course, after reading some of the artcles that have recently cropped-up, I realize that Cameron is an incredibly tyranical director - something I would never have thought given the tone of his films. I guess we learn something new almost every day! :)
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BigDave
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Well its all down to difference of oppinions, i for one really liked Aliens as a movie, it had a bit of everything.

Alien was a Enigma a Mystrey, and maybe should had been left alone as a standard movie, but then maybe we would never had seen all the Merchandise and Spin offs that came from exploring the Xeno more in Aliens. 

The Space Jockey was a Enigma, and some now disapointed at maybe the injustice that Prometheus did to that Enigma, and the sequel could even go futher to damaging the Space Jockey we just dont know, but could be another Xeno fest.... i hope by Alien-y they mean more of a suspense horror... but with a exploration/recover mission and a host of David 8's i dont think it would be so much, i think we would get more of a Alien 3 with more different xeno related Monsters..

As far as Cameron and the Xeno goes, Ridley had also long before Aliens sugested that the Alien was kind of insect like....  just as he said way before Prometheus and even Alien 3 that the Space Jockey was a Space suit.

Ive discused this lots of times, but a comparison with Ants is good, as Ants are the perfect lifeform in a sense, yeah they ant no Mankind, but have we been shown that the Xeno even in Alien was a creature that would do what Mankind can?

Nope it was a Parasite, that becomes a killing machine whos only purpose is to procreate its own kind and that was it simple as that.... And thus having a Queen fits in with that, and the Egg Morph well if thats how they make a Queen when there are none again makes perfect sense for a lifeform whos aim is to procreate and invest/wipe out.

some like to argue the Alien Xeno was more than that, it was clever, well i cant say Alien showed us down the path that it would get to Earth kill us off and take over planet and then start to create any kind of civilisation.

Oh but it was clever and Camerons Bugs was not.... nope it was showing signs of a creature that was in ideal enviroment to hide against a crew who are unarmed and trained, and its prime instinct was survive so that it can procreate.

Aliens we saw the Xeno cut the power, we saw how i protected the Hive at all costs, we saw how it then took to the space inbetween floors to avoid the sentry guns.  All signs of something more than just mindless Bugs like Star Ship Troopers.

Yes Cameron wanted the happy ending, and thank go we never got that, i think what Alien 3 did then was great.

I have also used the analogy of how a team of a few special ops when they are out numbered behind enemy lines with a clear objective to destroy something or someone would take a cautious aproach..

compared to how a team of say 30+ Marines and Navy Seals would react as far as protecting a objective, these marines would take more risks for the greater cause as opposed to being more stealthy.

Cameron has made some good movies, but he is argogant, Ridley is to a degree but not as much, Ridley has made some wonderful movies and visually with the details and especially when he does not use much in way of effects but uses real props and sets, its amazing...

But not with its flaws... (Gladiator Men in Jeans etc) and failures to produce Scale... Space Jockey and Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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@Redant

Excelent points....

 

Look if we can believe what we hear in that Ridley really liked Spaights draft and wanted to give us more answers to Alien etc, and thus he went ahead and put Spaights draft to the big screen.

We would have got something that would been too Alieny and something that stood between a Alien+Aliens with mix of Prometheus.

I liked what Lindeloff tried to do, but wish they then got someone else in or that Ridley then took Lindeloffs and Spaights and tried to marry the two and reach a draft that had a bit of both.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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I guess Avatar as not everyones cup of tea.... it was a idea to give us a whole new world to explore and a family movie as much as anyting, and it did fantastic.... we cant argue against that even though the movie was not my cup of tea, movies like that are not.  But i think they did wonders with creating the World etc.... again not my cup of tea.

End of the day Prometheus was a great potential, maybe Fox wanted to tone down the Xeno, because well as Ridley said every one as seen the Xeno done to the death, but we could have got some clues more than we did.... the movie was to explore the Space Jockey and that was the right thing to do.... only and especially with the cut we got, we never really explored them enough.

Going the route that they created us and are maybe the interpetations of many cultures Myths and Religons are based on is a MASSIVE SCOPE... but just as much a MASSIVE PROBLEM... you see when i worked on many ideas for how i would gone with Prometheus Part 2 most was simple..... apart from this connection, as i had so many ideas that kind of contridict and well was a massive task so i stopped doing rough draft as for the Engineers Agenda i had like well too many ideas that are all equally AWSOME but you could not have every idea used and i just could not think which to go with...

Thats the task that the production and writting staff now face, they have a MASSIVE TASK... but maybe going away from the Space Jockey/Engineers and going more back to the Alien Xeno is a easier way out.... and i fear thats what we will now get.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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Ideally....

I would have loved to see some other writter come onboard and merge best parts of Spaights and Lindeloffs work, with trying to tie in the ideas from Star Beast that never made it to Alien.

Then give it a 200M budget and 3 hour movie directed by Peter Jackson and John Carpenter input...

But alas.......................

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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one more thing about the Xeno....

 

We still do not know its full PURPOSE! 

That is up in the air for maybe future movies to explore, but Prometheus did give us some clues, that could lead us down a number of paths.

In Alien all we had was that there was some Eggs, that produce a Parasite that infected a Hist to produce a Organisms, whos aim was purely to procreate itself... in essense what we got was more like a FLY than anything else, simple as....

Aliens tried to show us that there was more to it than that and that while the Agenda is procreate its also that they do so in a hive, like how Termites, Bees and Ants do.

So Alien sets us down the path of a FLY, or Beetle...

Aliens down the path of a Bee or Ant...

Again the Alien deleted scene could show us maybe it dont create a Egg, but just stores a Hosts DNA in some kind of container that can be extracted some way, to the Space Jockeys Agenda..... thats one way to look at it.

But then again it could just be purely like Star Beast the final process to restart the procreation Cycle....

But then again it could tie in to Aliens, in that how Ants and Bees can create a Queen in a certain way when all Queens are dead or if there needs to be another, then again the Egg Morph could be a way to create a Queen... to me this makes the most sense to tie the whole franchise together.

But now we are left with WHERE DID THEY COME FROM ORIGINALLY... ? DID THE ENGINEERS CREATE THEM AND WHY?  and if not then WHY DID THE ENGINEERS HAVE A CONNECTION?  and finally WAS THE ENGINEERS ONLY USE FOR THEM AS A WEAPON?

These are the things that need answering once they are answered we dont need to see the Xeno again..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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Something Real
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BIG DAVE - Yes! I've always wondered what the full purpose for the Xenomorph might be. It's one of those nice little brain teasers I like to play with while I work!
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djamelameziane
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:) I guessed this would be the response even though some of these people were praising james before he said this. Lol one of you love the film for being illogical :D ! But facts are facts time after time you hear this opinion and even when one of the most ah wait no the most successful director says it you still ignore it lol. Still hearing the in the future everyone will love it. Well actually we are in the future now and all I see is less support :O . Not that I'm a total hater but more of a disappointed fan of Scott. Has to be said that unfortunately Cameron is winning hands down in the money making department getting 7 times the amount prometheus made with an unknown film at the time (having no fan base unlike prometheus) called avatar no less. Even though I hated the story for that. Avatar being number one in the money making chart number two being Cameron's as well with titanic which is an awesome film aliens was amazing too through not great as alien. So yes you could think one of the best directors of all time who's made the most money and even directed an alien film is wrong and millions of people support the same idea but seriously wtf! but then again there's still some people that think earth was made in 7 days so I guess it's not so strange :p. Let's hope part 2 saves the day!

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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meshuggah
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Because we all know Avatar added up logically lol All Hollywood movies placed under close scrutiny never add up logically, what he's saying has no content at all. He liked the film overall though but to be fair Prometheus wasn't made to be self-contained, as it relies on a second installment for context. Avatar on the other hand is completely self-contained and has some pretty big flaws. I dare Cameron to speak to Scott about Prometheus. 

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meshuggah
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@dj Just because a negative opinion of Prometheus happens to be quite popular in many circles doesn't mean it's better than other opinions and vice versa, nor does Cameron making more money make his opinions have greater validity than others, you're making an ad populum fallacy. Prometheus operates on a very symbolic and ironic level thus it doesn't have to be entirely beholden to elementary logic. It's not a question of whether Cameron is wrong, he offered his opinion on the continuity, nothing more. Avatar falls apart under scrutiny, thus his comment is rather hypocritical. There is no definitive opinion on Prometheus, especially when questions were deliberately left unanswered, hence all the debate in the first place. Where there are well argued criticisms there are equally well argued counter-criticisms.

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djamelameziane
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Like I said I personally hated avatars story even though it was unbelievably well made in other ways. But you can't knock the fact that he does seem to be doing way better in selling cinema tickets and getting critics to like his films than Scott lately even though Scott I reckon has made way better films in his earlier carrier. And no you can't really knock much of the logic in alien were as pretty much all of prometheus you can but that takes us back into all the old threads so I won't being them up again! And it's very different when a film it's set in our universe as such and is trying to be realistic like prometheus because then we can actually say hmm no people don't act that way etc....and I was just pointing out that certain people have more weight in there observations like you might ask a doctor about your health or maybe the most successful director in history about a film lol! Funny stuff...

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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meshuggah
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Last I checked Prometheus takes place in the Alien universe where creatures subvert the rules of conservation of mass and where space is ruled by corporations. And who said Prometheus was trying to be realistic? The film operates on a mythic and ironic level thus it doesn't have to be limited by the strictures of realism. As for the dubious actions of the characters, that was exactly the point, why did people expect credible scientists? The movie was all about flawed and foolish characters confronting forces greater than them. No credible scientist would ever sign up to a years long journey into space without knowing why, especially if they knew the mission was based solely on the premise of cave scribbles and the hubris of a dying megalomaniac. The whole thing was a corporate funded farce, we sympathise with David because he is our audience surrogate, Lindelof wrote David as a counterpoint to the humans that Lindelof deemed to be 'morons'. Thus when people complain about the humans being stupid they don't seem to realise that that's exactly the point. 

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djamelameziane
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You       don't        think     prometheus.....was trying to be realistic    :O sorry my jaw just dropped to the floor ok that will explain everything no need to go on. LOL    

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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Batchpool
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I’ve nothing personal against Camerons’ films and he has done some good work. The way I see it, Cameron is critical of any film and we all need a hobby. Even if you have a film that wins higher acclaim than Avatar, he will find something wrong with it, or something that in his considered opinion needs improving on. Hurtlocker is a good example of that.

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What if each group has a different view of the universe, and the Alien’s place in it?

The androids might believe that the Alien is the “perfect organism”.

The Engineers seem to place a high degree of importance on the Alien in their artwork. It's a part of their culture, and plays a role in how their culture operates. Shaw and Holloway might have thought that the mural was depicting mythological beings, but the Engineer artwork is conveying information about how the Engineers view themselves, the alien, and the way things work. How they organize themselves etc. In some ways, the mural represents the Engineer view of the universe, and the Alien lifecycle etc. It's an attempt to convey meaning, much like the Sistine chapel.

The film suggests a ceremonial/ritual aspect to the way the Engineers setup that room. Fifield and Millburn ask if they worshipped the giant head as a god. The Engineer culture has their own beliefs about the universe and the alien, their own system of organization. Which is completely different than ours.

The artwork is like a cross-section of how the Engineers think. It can be analyzed to start learning about the people who created it. It has some sort of meaning to them, and the Alien is part of what they choose to believe..

We can't determine exactly what the typical Engineer view of the Alien or the universe around them is yet, or how their culture operates. That’s the thing that’s going to be the most different between Engineers and humans: how they think and why they think it.. I've mentioned that their genetics and physiology are a match for us. So they’re like us physically, and that puts certain constraints on them, as well as helps us frame them. However, we have no clue how they think. Nor do we know about their technological prowess. 

The engineer brain would perceive the world around them in a much different way. They've had more time to develop tech, but it's nothing we couldn't develop without time and access to similar resources. Technology is a growing body of knowledge, and each culture develops their own technology as a way to master their environment. Every single species is constantly modifying their surroundings, "building better worlds" for themselves, "we're the gods now"... Conservation of resources/energy is a constant struggle. There's no organism known to man that leaves zero impact on the environment... No man needs nothing. There are slight phenotypic differences, but no differences in genotype between humans and Engineers.  Engineers need resources too...

There's some form of energy that makes David "run". I think this android eats because he needs an energy source.. David hopes he's not made "too close" to humans. No other android eats... IMO sometimes the Alien needs to consume inorganic or organic material to grow, but needs less energy. It's rarely seen feeding, however there are indications that the Alien eats when it needs to grow... Very few things would grow in that desert, the worm is evidence that there was a little bit more than nothing in the desert.. Each species acts to preserve its own interest. The Alien is a survivor; it has survival instincts in it, like Shaw..A natural form of intelligence that's hard to quantify or qualify.

In the virals they give the crew an early assessment where their brains are being scanned. I think all the crewmembers were chosen specifically for being able to be manipulated; chosen specifically for not having enough logic in their heads...Shaw had survival instincts "in her" and David actually gave her a compliment, meaning that she was naturally smarter than the rest of the crew..

In the Spaights script, David says "you're all so stupid" and attacks Shaw. I think these characters are supposed to have "half a brain", they're supposed to be slightly illogical... Supposed to be able to be manipulated by Weyland's agenda; analyzing their subconscious minds is an extension of profiling & controlling what they're thinking about by bringing certain memories to the surface. David stimulates these memories at certain points. Holding onto and giving back the cross is part of a study he's running on Shaw's mind, and how the subconscious mind influences humans' actions.

David taking the cross away, then giving it back when Shaw survives, is a form of operant conditioning,...He hopes to lead her on the next stage of his adventure with his tricks... Weyland corp has deceived people throughout the whole series. The trick concept, tricking the brain back to life, deception and even self-deception could be a big part of this series by the end. "the trick is not minding that it hurts". Shaw follows her instincts and stands up to them. She takes the alien out of herself before they get a chance to freeze her. Shaw didn't know what would happen, she suspected something was up...Just like Ripley did. Shaw reacted instinctively and kept herself alive, David admires this form of intellect. She had no proof that Weyland corp was up to no good other than the weird way David was acting, She had a gut reaction to things... Her head wasn't doing the thinking.

Their psych profiles were taken in spaight's script. I think a lot from Spaight's script was simply moved into the background by Lindelof's script. Davis/David said Shaw/Watts has the highest IQ. The dream visor, the Happy birthday viral, and the crew interviews are possible evidence that even in Lindelof's script David and Weyland corp have been messing with and analyzing their minds, as well as perceiving things no one else can... There's a psychological component to this movie. Lindelof said he only changed things around so that the emphasis was on the Engineers. It's not straight forward, the subtext of the movie tells more story than the movie itself, and I can see how Lindelof steered it away from definitive answers, for now. David has to be juxtaposed with characters who act illogically because he sees himself as superior to us. He's driven by logic. He wants to be closer to the Engineers, because he perceives them to be the superior species. David was made in our image. Some of David's comments are a critque on humanity & human culture as a whole. That's what people might not get until the second movie... David's our male lead, and his perspective is important. That first crew was expendable, as are all others to Weyland corp, and David knew this going in. Shaw is our female lead. David isn't a side character, he's just as much the star of the series as Shaw. He's a driving force in the story now...If my theory pans out the next story is partially about how Androids perceive us to be illogical, and how David thinks he can gain his freedom from us by joining with the Engineers... He knew about Weyland's true agenda. The Aliens are pure, they're free of any delusions of morality and 'you don't see them screwing eachother over for a percentage". David's beliefs might be more inline with those of Engineers...Humans can be irrational and illogical at times because of their emotions. To err is human. and we learn from our mistakes. it's what makes us human, and David has made some mistakes..

On the surface things seem illogical because we're not seeing the full thought process that led to some of the actions, and we don't understand why the characters act as they do.... Figuring out their true inner characters, and their personality types, can help explain why each character acts certain ways, and what each of their agendas were.

I think Janek was chosen specifically because he "only flies the ship"...I believe they were selected for their minds have been conditoned by Weyland. As part of Weyland corp's "trick". David brings up psychology when he asks "doesn't everyone want to see their parents dead?". I think he's been analyzing their subconscious minds to better understand their personality profiles... That's why he was watching Shaw's dreams. Because of the areas of psychology that ties into. David doesn't believe Freud's psycho-analytic theory (to which he's referring); he has his own thoughts and observations on peoples' subconscious desires... Weyland corp has been studying the crews' minds to understand how to control them... They used Shaw's beliefs against her, and almost programmed her like a robot by bringing certain thoughts to the surface and leading her on this adventure. "Anyone with half a brain can create life". Shaw's eggs were infertile, she wasn't barren.. David wants to keep her around because she's the only one who has it in her...

Self-preservation is a psychological drive that all species share. There's often not a lot of logic to it  It's not always about surivial of the fittest; it's about survival of the most adaptable... The Alien's survival mechanisms make it the "perfect organism" according to Ash. The Alien has advantages that make it more capable of dealing with its surroundings and spreading its genetics.. Ash can be objective because he's not alive, not part of the natural order of things. David's "too close" to us because of his artificial emotions... David is able to intuit some things, and can use inductive reasoning.  Death is part of the natural order of things, and the Aliens are close to death. They fill a particular niche.

Ash has an outside perspective on which species is superior; he gives the Nostromo crew his sympathies because he knows this organism is perfectly adapted for ensuring the survival of its own species... Anything it views as "the other" or "alien" it will destroy and use as a resource. The facehugger & hammerpede stage display impressive regenerative capabilities. The facehugger heals quickly, Hammerpede can re-grow its own head -- which may be advantageous for any living species... Engineers would have all of our senses, but they perceive the universe around them in a different way because of their access to different experiences and data.

Engineer culture has completely different tech, beliefs, systems of knowledge, customs/social practices etc. There are many differences to explore in the way each culture views the Alien, and the way each organizes information about the universe. Conservation of matter and energy might be viewed in a different light by them, thanks to the Alien...  Engineer brains and bodies are wired in much the same way as humans because we can use our tech on them.. However, as mentioned we can't understand exactly how the Engineers think. We don't understand how they perceive the universe, why they wanted to destroy us OR how they perceive the Alien, and why they use it as part of their system of worship..

 

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Major Noob
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DJ, bottom line, I don't care what Cameron thinks and I don't care what you think. I care what I think, I enjoyed the film and JC talking down to it is not gonna magically erase that.

And please, don't substantiate his position with ticket sales. I'm also not impressed by pedestrian tastes, McDonald's is similarly successful, doesn't make it good, doesn't mean I'll be seeking McDonalds opinion on fine dining.

And yes, I don't need logic, at least not in a fantasy setting. Kinda the whole point, really.

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djamelameziane
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Don't need logic that kinda ends any argument lol! It could be a blank screen for 2 hours and if you don't need logic it's the best film ever lol. I prefer reality...I'm just still stunned that people could view it as not being a realistic film (or at least trying to be). Did you not see star maps from our universe references to points in our history actual dates in our future...earth...people supposedly acting like people in real life. It set in our future in this universe and trying not to step out side of our reality. Alien did this so well prometheus did not ...so many people believed they could actually be in alien it felt so real which is why it was so amazing its very hard to do. Prometheus doesn't even come close to that it feels like a film and hardly comes close to real....anyway like I said can't really argue with don't need logic lol! And yes Mc Donalds isn't fine dining it's addictive food and it does what is supposed to very well prometheus did not do what it's supposed to do and I'm afraid you don't even realise what it was supposed to be doing in the first place lol!

So to sum it up I'm guessing you think prometheus is fantasy and I'm thinking its sci fi I'm really struggling to find were you got that idea from lol!

 

 "It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

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