How to save the franchise
joylitt
MemberNeomorphAugust 04, 2017This Youtuber seems to know how. In just 8 minutes, and with a side by side selection of footage from the different entries in the series that speaks for itself, he offers a very sensible analysis of what the franchise needs to do in order to move forward.
I had to stop listening to this youtube rant after a few minutes, because the guy is just so full of it. The reasons I love Prometheus and Alien Covenant are exactly the reasons that he lists as a problem at the start of his diatribe:
1. RS is not conservative. He has thrown in bold ideas, with immense subtleties. Not the best thing for the popcorn brigade, but definitely right up my street.
2. These movies have their own strengths and do not need to repeat ad nauseam the old Alien tropes.
3. They can appeal to anyone who enjoys thinking, not just those who want to see something slinking around in the shadows.
If I had my way, I'd love to see an Engineer movie that didn't feature a single face-hugger or bit of goo. As well as, of course, more Aliens. The genre has been expanded to encompass far more than cheap scares.
You can read in my review on this site what i did not like in it. And I don't understand how it did not disregard Prometheus both the engineers and Shaw were killed off (here faith was only the true moving thing in here, in rest I could not care about any of the new characters). Or Ridley Scott's 2012 idea for a Prometheus sequel was this all along? I also hated in Covenant that parts felt like watching a Reboot with reused music and lines. Being the most nihilistic movie in series did not help either, after the more hopeful ending of Prometheus.
Id prefer if they finish off the franchise with a sequel to Covenant and then just leave the IP alone.
I have a feeling that the Alien franchise will become stale much like Terminator or Jaws. If the IP is left alone all of the films that are bad or mediocre (Alien 3,Alien: Resurrection, A:C) will be forgotten and the interesting and good films will become timeless classics (Alien,Alien 2,Prometheus)
@hox
I had to stop listening to this youtube rant after a few minutes, because the guy is just so full of it. The reasons I love Prometheus and Alien Covenant are exactly the reasons that he lists as a problem at the start of his diatribe:
1. RS is not conservative. He has thrown in bold ideas, with immense subtleties. Not the best thing for the popcorn brigade, but definitely right up my street.
2. These movies have their own strengths and do not need to repeat ad nauseam the old Alien tropes.
3. They can appeal to anyone who enjoys thinking, not just those who want to see something slinking around in the shadows.
If I had my way, I'd love to see an Engineer movie that didn't feature a single face-hugger or bit of goo. As well as, of course, more Aliens. The genre has been expanded to encompass far more than cheap scares.
I absolutely agree. Action and gore gets boring. There's no story to it. The first Alien wasn't about gore, and it certainly wasn't action-packed like Aliens was. That's what made it so successful.
And I don't understand how it did not disregard Prometheus both the engineers and Shaw were killed off
Why would it disregard an entire movie that set up the reason for David and Shaw to be on Planet 4 in the first place? If Noomi had been able to return, they would obviously have had to include her in the film in some fashion.
In the UK in 2015 the audience age group of 15 -34 made up 48% of the cinema audience. However the population in the United States is 6 times greater. In Asean many countries populations are largely skewed to the young having put on a terrific spurt since the end of the wars and hostility in Indo China. In Vietnam 60% of the population has been born after 1979. So there are huge new territories for the studios to pursue.
If you are going to spend 160 million dollars the budget for Covenant (Ridley did it in a ton) you have to point the movie at the biggest segment of your audience. However if you look at these figures
Skyfall Sony 103.202
The Dark Knight Rises Warner Bros 56.303
Marvel's Avengers AssembleWalt Disney51.904
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Warner Bros 40.805
The Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn - Part 2 EOne Films 35.506
Ted Universal 30.307
Ice Age: Continental Drift 20th Century Fox 30.108
The Amazing Spider-Man Sony 25.909
Prometheus 20th Century Fox 24.7010
The Hunger Games Lionsgate 23.80
It would suggest that Ridley was wrong to react to the internet chatter because Prometheus amongst that film audience including nearly half at 15 to 34 made it the 9th biggest gross.
I agree with the view that a largely US centric audience is wedded to the marines narrative of A L I E N S and they are the most keen on a re run with Blomkamp. These are the people who constantly quote lines of dialogue from that movie ...endlessly, and effectively want it made again.
I know what I think, you guys know what you think so why didn't more people go to the movie ? I actually think giving it the Alien Prefix narrowed the audience potential. I am convinced the Alien franchise after 38 years is niche and Prometheus was an attempt to break out.
You say you do not understand why some did not like Covenant. Thats not the problem its that people did not go to see it in sufficient numbers.
As I keep on saying I found it an entertaining routine film which followed a hackneyed formula and the 2nd act was muddled (Shaw) and offered unsatisfactory/no answers set up by Prometheus. Could you confirm whether you understand that point.
The answers we were looking for were :-
1) What was LV223 and its relation to Paradise.
2) Where do the Engineers fit in to the hierarchy and what is the significance of the tear drop ship and the acolyte.
3) Most importantly why did they want to kill us if they created us. That was the huge set up of Prometheus.
4) What do the artefacts in the headroom mean .
5) How was the Alien Pathogen created and how does it link in with the life giving catalyser that the acolyte ingested.
6) Why did the Engineers suffer a fall and begin their own sub creation.
7) Who is the Engineer in the headroom.
Once we arrive at Paradise.
1) What is the relationship between the inhabitants of Paradise who appear different to the Engineers of LV223 why ?
2) What is the significance of the Plaza, the docking vehicle and why were they open to David 's juggernaut what were they expecting.
3) What did David "find out" on his journey to Paradise.
4) What happened and when did he wake Elizabeth.
5) What is the significance of the holo message and what were the circumstances of its recording.
6) How much of what David offered Walter as explanation was the unreliable narrator. ADF indicates that Walter deduced the ship did not crash it presumably crashed when Elizabeth tried to get away.
Put simply instead of answers we have none and many more questions except David is mad as a hatter and has created (Ridley) the particular variant of the alien pathogen outcome known as the Xenomorph or ADF he found an egg lying around.
Those are the reasons why Covenant is considered a disappointment and have been repeated endlessly on this forum others get gnarled up over gestation periods, hair growth, CGI, lack of safety protocols but the central problem is the STORY.
Noomi was very anxious to reprise her role and had many interesting ideas as to how to progress her character. She was written out when John Logan took over the script writing. In the Green and Paglan scripts she was in. She was available.
1) What was LV223 and its relation to Paradise.
2) Where do the Engineers fit in to the hierarchy and what is the significance of the tear drop ship and the acolyte.
3) Most importantly why did they want to kill us if they created us. That was the huge set up of Prometheus.
4) What do the artefacts in the headroom mean .
5) How was the Alien Pathogen created and how does it link in with the life giving catalyser that the acolyte ingested.
6) Why did the Engineers suffer a fall and begin their own sub creation.
7) Who is the Engineer in the headroom.
Once we arrive at Paradise.
1) What is the relationship between the inhabitants of Paradise who appear different to the Engineers of LV223 why ?
2) What is the significance of the Plaza, the docking vehicle and why were they open to David 's juggernaut what were they expecting.
3) What did David "find out" on his journey to Paradise.
4) What happened and when did he wake Elizabeth.
5) What is the significance of the holo message and what were the circumstances of its recording.
6) How much of what David offered Walter as explanation was the unreliable narrator. ADF indicates that Walter deduced the ship did not crash it presumably crashed when Elizabeth tried to get away.
I understood your stance perfectly. However, I disagree about the muddled plot. It was not a perfect movie, but why should it be? And, why should we be given all the answers when there is another movie or two to come?
In answer to your points, I think we did get answers to some -
1) We already know that LV-223 was a military installation for the Engineers. As Janek said, they aren't stupid enough to keep the Pathogen on their homeworld/s
2) We only saw a two minute clip of the teardrop dock/ship, so I'm not sure we were ever going to get an answer. Theories will likely be rife until the next film.
3) An answer we would have gotten, had David not killed them all on Planet 4. It is an answer we may still get in the next film. As David said to Shaw at the end of Prometheus "The answer is irrelevant", so we were never going to find out from him. He didn't care.
4) Do you mean the Ampules?
5) I have a feeling they are the same thing. As David says, "to create, one must first destroy". That's what the Pathogen does. It breaks down the existing DNA and rewrites it based upon the host and the surrounding environment.
6) Do you mean the bodies found in the ship in Prometheus? I always thought they'd let the Pathogen get loose...
7) The decapitated one? Perhaps he was no one... An Engineer equivalent of a low ranking private?
Planet 4
1) I have feeling we'll find out in the next film, if we do indeed see Engineers arrive there to see what happened. I have a personal theory that it was a colony of theirs...
2) They likely couldn't see David, so why would they be suspicious to one of their own ships?
3) I'll admit, this is also something I would like to know... Perhaps he learned that they were very much like humans, and was disappointed...
4) Something I would like to know too... Perhaps if Walter is revived/awakens, he will be able to discover what exactly was done to her...
5) I doubt she knew she was being recorded. My theory is David did it secretly, knowing exactly what he was going to do with it, knowing that it would tempt someone to come looking for it.
6) I think David flew it into the forest deliberately, once he'd taken care of the Engineers, just the right amount to cause some damage, but nothing monumental. I would imagine that once Walter realised that he had been lied to in regards to Shaw's demise and resting place once he'd found her mutilated body, he quickly realised that David had engineered everything.
The Alien franchise needs saving from some of their fans. They do not grasp what Alien is but instead want cheap scares and action with no subtext unless it's full of hope. Alien has always been an nihilistic art film, it's a thinking man movie, and Covenant embraces that.
"The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts."
What I noticed about Prometheus and Covenant, is that both the stories and the viral campaign have become too whimsical and self referential; honestly, I have my doubts Ridley Scott takes the material very seriously, and he doesn't seem interested in moving away from formula. As the video suggests: new movies in the franchise should be faithful to the original in spirit, and they don't even have to be set on a starship or have the same type of characters.
The Alien franchise needs saving from some of their fans. They do not grasp what Alien is but instead want cheap scares and action with no subtext unless it's full of hope. Alien has always been an nihilistic art film, it's a thinking man movie, and Covenant embraces that.
Absolutely agreed. I'm tired of the gore-seekers... That's not entertainment.
Precisely. Gratuitous, computer generated gore like the one in Covenant is not interesting nor entertaining. Provide suspense and an intelligent script and the masses will flock to see the next movie.
I agree, to a degree, that "Alien" required no prequel. No movie ever does...except those that have a fanbase that wants to know more. And "Alien" fans are those people. We DID want to know. We all were clamoring for the "why" about that big ol' "Star Beast Big Chap". Now, we might not be happy with the answers we have received, but who ever is? I am still going to my grave never believing that "David" the AI is the ultimate XX121 "creator". I will NEVER buy that...ever. No matter what they show me on film.
So, yes...A:C is "weak"...that I agree. But, it's still a wonderful movie; however, had the Prometheus story been told in the right way...right Director? I don't know...then we could've/would've had a fantastic "beginning" that everyone would've been interested in. Now, we simply have a confusing mesh of ideas from varying scriptwriters and a Movie House wanting "More Xeno" in order to try and push up the bottom line. None of that is "wrong", but the story...if there ever was one...has certainly suffered, IMHO.
Can it be saved? Yes, it can be. But the director is the LAST person that is to have that much effect on it. The writers and the movie house are going to be the final dictators of that.
The zeno is NOT cooked. If fox would have kept the original ending and killed Ripley they would have had a great franchise. The slow methodical movements of the alien itself and look of it were incredible and still cannot be beat. Aliens was a disappointment when it came out and I was 12 when it came out. The plot of Ripley going back was stupid. I think that plot was chosen to show off the fight scene at the end. Also stupid. The queen looked ridiculous. Hudson would not shut up. The rubber suits looked bad. And the same 2 idiots continued the alien design flaw thru 4. I can totally rip apart the stupid character decisions that were made during Aliens like trolls like to say about AC. Like the fact that even though marines sat through the "meeting" the 1 still climbs on the ship after noticing the "slime". The list goes on. Continue with the prequels and reboot with the alien and queen floating in space. Remember Cameron established that the aliens can breath in space. You know, the queen hitched a ride. NO MORE RIPLEY!!!! NO BLOMKAMP!!!!!
@Michelle
Indeed i totally agree.. and i have noticed the AVPGalaxy contains a high % of Fanboys and they even dont mind Alien R and the AVP movies.
Give them a Tentpole, Popcorn Xeno + Queens and Ripley Flick and i think 40% of the AVP Galaxy site would love that.
If they continued with P2 and explored a different Plot with David and Shaw, where we would explore some of the Big themes about Creation and Rebellion and how the Xeno was just no more than what and how Gunpowder was a game changer to Mankinds Wars.. And so to step away from the Xenomorph and i think AVPGalaxy would have a 75% who would not like this.
Explore with Alien Franchise the AI being more a Key and even hint at AI actually running the company and mankind without us even being in the know... like the Matrix and again i dont think many on that site would aprove..
some would though....
red0guy@gmail.com
Your reply to Michelle hit the nail on the head.... i can see Michelles point and maybe fustration and this is the same i share and why my kind of Rant.... but you make the BIG POINT.. and that is the Modern Audience... and things have changed and indeed the Super Hero movies do seem to do well.
A lot of the current Generation of 16-25 year olds would maybe rather enjoy a Aliens and Alien R, and a bit of the AVP movies and AC compared to Alien, Alien 3 and Prometheus.
The 25-35 year olds do seem to be more inclined to Aliens
In general the 35-40 year olds may like the Apeal of Alien and Aliens and the over 40's seem to be interested more in Alien, this is in general though..
So FOX have to look at the Potential Audience and this is why AC had its problems... if FOX made a Alien Movie that was set to be aimed only at the Alien Fans or those who liked Prometheus, then some who liked Aliens and others may not be interested so they had to try and please all these people.
But the Kicker is if every single Franchise Fan who owns the DVD's and Watches the movies say 5-10X more than the average person who has ever seen a Alien movie or knows what they are about.. and so people who take part in sites like this.
If we all went to see a Alien movie at the BOX Office and only we saw it then it would Sadly not make back its $$$$$$$ and so they have to cater for trying to get casual Alien fans and non real Alien Fans and get them to see the movie.
Hence the Marketing..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I have a feeling that the Alien franchise will become stale much like Terminator or Jaws"
As long as it does not get to be like the SHARKNADO'S LOL
Michelle some good Questions... and this is the great thing with the whole Prometheus Plot the Questions that connect to Prometheus that are not answered, not in Prometheus and those not answered in AC and those that are a bit but raise more Quesitions
The Ambiguity and scope and how we have not had no Answers, and how the Plot and Clues are mean every point you made as far as Questions.. we can come up with more than one potential answer for each point.
There was a wealth of information we have yet to uncover.. sadly its how do they fit it all in? Even those from Covenant would need 2 movies to cover if we are also going to follow David the Covenant Ship to Oriage-6 where do we see what David does within the 7.5 years to Origae-6 or after.. and how do they then fit in 2-3 more Parties/Players coming in as well as the other which is the Engineers... its a hard task to do this with ONE movie... but indeed its a case of will FOX want to set this up as a TWO Movie in case the next one is a Flop and they are left Hanging with a unfinished Two-Part Tie in to Alien where they cant leave it alone... but then what risk to carry on.
I think the safest choice is to unfortunately do what AC did...
Alien Covenant was a Aftermath to the Crossing Movie that never was... but we just get the Viral Short Video and Davids Flashback to cover what a Movie between Prometheus and Alien Covenant would cover.
And so i think now they have to do the same with the Next Movie, and so By-pass the whole 2105 to 2012 Timeline.. and have it where David has set up a colony on Origae-6 with the colonist and they have part set this up... before David then goes about with his Agenda.
What happened on the Covenant from when David tucked Daniels into Cryo-sleep to when the Covenant made it and began to set up the Colony... have these as a few Flash Backs or Narrated by David.
Then have the incoming Engineers arrive at the end, we dont have to see them on Paradise and this saves money.. they could instead have a Juggernaught turn up to Davids Horror and then Walter walks down.... and then we see Engineers.
As Logically the Engineers would not know who did all that to Paradise, they would maybe know someone got to LV-223 and so they would likely be off to LV-223 and Earth... i cant see how they can find David because he is off on a Human Ship and we have to assume the Engineers arrive on Planet 4 way way after David has left, as it will take the Covenant over 7 years to Origae-6 and so if the Engineers arrive after 6 months they surely would catch David way before he gets to Origae-6
Also we dont know how far the Covenant had traveled when we see it in AC... it would be no more than 5 years away from Earth and i would say at least 18 Months as they had to make a Re-charge which is when disaster struck.
So in Space Terms the Covenant is not vastly far away and Mankind has a number of ships and so if the Engineers arrive on Planet 4 say 3, 4 or 5 years later and then go off what is to say they dont intercept other Human ships first, how would they know which ship to find.
So Logically they would have to get this information off Walter.
Also David has contacted the company, and it would take so many years i think for them to get the message so again the company would know what the Covenant was and its mission and maybe that it is heading to Origae-6 and so its Logical again the Company set off to Origae-6
The time a the company gets the message and then heads to Origae-6 if there ships are similar speed to the Covenant does then leave a Few Years after the Covenant would arrive.
So i think this makes sense.. but it may appear a bit more of a Aliens Remake...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think a Problem with AC, was indeed it was trying to please Alien Fans, Trying to Please Aliens Fans, trying to please Prometheus Fans but all in such a small way... it tried to give these Fans a little something..
While then throwing in something Fresh (Neomorphs) the U-Turn/Curveball David created the Xenomorph.
But in trying to please them all, it ended up disappointing them all for the a lot anyway. I think Aliens fans can pick a few Good Points, and pick some Bad... and have some more Wants (more Xenos and a Queen maybe). Prometheus fans can pick a few Good Points and some Bad and have more wants (more about the Engineers) and some of the more Purist Alien Fans would be left going WTF! and their Treat would be the Xenomorph on the Covenant Rushed Scenes.
Each New movie did add something a bit different but each new movie also split the fanbase up.
A quick Summary of a few of these...
ALIEN a near Flawless movie... that Aliens gave a decent sequel to, that may have spit some Alien Purist, in how it was a Popcorn Action flick but a decent one at that... that seemed to for some Alien Fans weaken the iconic Xenomorph.
ALIEN 3 continued on from Aliens, where it appeared the Xenomorph was no more and the only route to it was via Ripley as she had a Queen.. decent attempt a few raises questions (how the Eggs got to the Sulaco)
But for Alien Fans it was a bit of a return to Alien, but for Aliens fans it lacked the Action of the First Movie, for some it killed off Newt and Hicks off Screen... and then it Killed Ripley off.
ALIEN R with Alien 3 Ripley had met her End, but miss Weaver wanted to return despite wanting to be killed off in Alien 3 and so they had to come up with a interesting way to bring her back with a flawed way it would lead to a Queen... The movie really made the Xenomorphs more fodder again, the Queen was also made to be a bit dumb.. being pregnant and giving birth to a Newborn Hybrid Blah Blah..
This Split Fans again, as some Alien fans would not like it, some Aliens fans too... it kind of was not the best movie, it was not as serious as the others and touched more of a Hellboy kind of Comic book Character kind of flick... The Beast was Ba"$%^dized
Then came FOX who having decided not to touch the Franchise, as Alien R did get a bit of criticism, leading to a Plot where Ripley 8 would be on Earth and maybe then have to explore how the Xeno had got off the Crashed Space Station or a company used its DNA to introduce the Xeno and Ripley again but i think FOX was a bit uncertain about doing a Alien 5
And so we got the AVP movie which offered a back ground for the company and the Xeno being known for thousands of years.. while the Plot should be considered a alternative Time Line and Universe the movie was not to bad... as far as a Popcorn Flick was... it was like a Aliens meets Alien 3 meets Alien R with no Ripley.. to a degree.
But it made the Xenomorph look weak again, and while it gave us another Queen Battle since we saw Ripley vs the Queen . overall it seemed to damage the Xenomorph a bit.. and the Predator a bit.. and seemed to show well Humans are not so much Fodder.
They should have gone for a AVP set in the Computer Games and Comics Timeline..
Then we got AVPR which had a decent follow on Plot, that was then not expanded into a good movie due to a shocking script and acting and it seemed a very much Low Budget, Cheesy Horror meets Action flick where again the Xenomorph was just Fodder..
And became Cooked..
so at this Point the Franchise Fanbase was Split they all had different likes and dislikes.... there really was not much they could do with a Alien R sequel... i guess they could have done.. but then it would just be like what AVPR had kind of done to a very poor level it had...
They could not surely do a AVP 3 even a Reboot because again AVPR had damaged that Cross-over and its a risk another movie would fail.
so the only thing left (apart from a Parallel movie set between Aliens and Alien R) was to explore the Xenomorph Origin and Space Jockey.
This brings us to PROMTHEUS.. at first it was a more direct kind of prequel.. but FOX did like the Curveball about the Space Jockey/Engineers and decided maybe tone down the Xeno as it had been done over and over, and maybe something new would be best.
Prometheus got some bad reaction, the Plot was good and Bold, the execution flawed, but it did give something to think about it did expand the Universe... but this Split Fans, because some wanted more Xeno connections, some wished it had Xenomorphs in it... and so yes some thought this would be a Alien Prequel and expected it as much...
Then we get to Alien Covenant.. which i covered before its failings..
So yes its hard to please them all, so FOX have a hard task at hand. I think and hope they stick with RS Vision and dont crack into doing a kind of Blomkamps Alien 5
I think Alien 5 could be good, if it was done right and passed on the Torch from Ripley, i would hate to see a Alien 6, and Alien 7 with it being about Ripely. A Alien 5 thats similar to Blomkamps that passes the Torch to Newt and sets up a Alien 6 that maybe covers other alternative Xenomorphs and Engineers i think could work.
The thing is FOX would not Fund and Back TWO movies at the same time... and IF they did or they was to appear near enough the same time.. Ridley Scott Felt his Prequels are whats more important, than resurrecting Ripley and the Queen and in doing so taking Alien 3 and Alien R from Canon.
Alien 5 had appeared to explore and touch upon some things that would conflict with things RS had planned with his Prometheus 2 and 3 and maybe how he wished to show the Xenomorph Origins and where any Engineer Technology is at the time of Aliens.
In addition... if RS made his Prometheus Sequel and Blomkamp his modified Alien 5 (remove bits that conflict) there is a risk that interest in Alien 5 could affect the Box Office Results of Prometheus 2
So logically they had to put Alien 5 on Hold.... but then after AC was in works, RS had wanted to do another 2-3 movies after Prometheus... and at least a Sequel (Alien Covenant) and then another after this... and so this would surely be a 5-6 year delay to even contemplating Alien 5 and so in effect put that movie to BED...
The Question FOX has now, is would a Alien 5 instead of a Prometheus sequel been better? maybe for $$$ but as for continuing the Story and the Franchise overall... then the Prequels had to come first.
its now after Alien Covenant, would FOX even consider leaving these Prequels alone and then do a Alien 5 to make $$$$ and get Miss Weaver in before she would be 100% too old?
If this was done and Alien 5 did not do well, then that would be Curtains for carrying on the Prequels...
So we can see why Alien 5 was canned...
The big Question now is where to they stand with Alien Covenants Sequels? Maybe they now would feel they had to add a bit more the Original 3 movies had that AC did not and maybe add some of what Alien 5 was going to have?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave Talking about Sharknado, Covenant has quite a few cringe worthy moments, like the birth of the chestburster, a scene that according to concept artists Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton was much longer in the test screenings. That was a truly laughable moment and a stab in the heart of the xenomorph reputation as a credible monster.
Covenant has found a niche audience in those who appreciated the whimsical nature of Ridley Scott's vision, but it won't find a larger audience. Even the home video release is getting a second wave of backlash, with more bad reviews and a dropping score on imdb. At 6.6, soon to be on par with Alien 3.
@joylitt, Nobody laughed in the (large) audience at the screening I attended. In my opinion, the scene is sheer brilliance. The baby Alien has glistening beauty in the destruction that it creates (hard to disagree with David's description of perfection). The music is rousing. David signals his presence, begging an acknowledgement, echoing the theme of Holloway's sacrifice. The limbs unfold and spread. The little monster, only seconds old, senses its power and superiority. It doesn't see, but it sees. It acknowledges its maker.
