How to save the franchise

red0guy@gmail.co

I can see that there is a step missing in my point about the 15 to 34 generation which frankly I assumed everyone would connect.

When a studio underwrites a tentpole movie (100,000 million dollars plus) it does so believing it is going to capture the crucial segment of the audience to turn a profit. The crucial segment of the audience is 15 to 34 because it represents nearly half the audience.  

In the UK the over 55's love films like "Lady of The Van" which are made for a fraction of the cost and there are lots of lovely small films made for that age group. 

So your point is key and one which puts Alien Prequels in jeopardy as tent pole material. The crucial young audience are not naturally interested in the kind of sci fi that Alien represents.

There has to be a reason why Covenant did not do well at the box office and its not the early reviews, they were good certainly not negative, so it must be an Alien prefix movie is not a natural for the crucial audience. 

You then get those whom attend. 

Alien fans 

Aliens Fans 

Prometheus fans many of whom are original Alien films and thats when the highly fragmented feedback begins which you see on this forum and others. 

Finally

Whether you like him or not Damon Lindelof set up Prometheus to be speculative, which I loved, and intended those speculations would be answered in the follow up Prometheus movie. He has seen Covenant and said they have yet to reach the place where those answers would be found. So if the script writer feels we are in a holding pattern and thats how I see it then I am fairly clear  my response is correct. Meanwhile I can buy the Blu Ray and watch an homage to the first movie and a little of the second in the 1st and 3rd Act but because I know its familiar and I have been there before my interest is going to be to scrutinise the 2nd act and see if there is a coherent story about Elizabeth and anything remotely like answers on the Engineers that I missed in the cinema or Alan Dean Foster did not provide. I am expecting meagre fair. 

Seph7

Thank you for responding. I have my own set of views some of which overlap with yours but they are views and interpretations not answers. 

Why is this important.

Because the entire point of a prequel series, and it is why some understandably do not like the notion of them, is to provide a coherent set of answers to the creation story in which the XXX121 came about. Not necessarily precisely how the creature was specifically created but the world into which it was created.

There is a very simple answer. The Alien Pathogen was created out of punishment for unauthorised sub creation by fallen angels who were turned into serpents metaphorically speaking the allegory of Paradise Lost but Ridley rather than pursue that has in his view gone for the much more interesting story which many people here are in denial over which is David is the creator of the creature utilising the pathogen in a specific way.

So rather than deal with creationism and a mechanical view of our origins he is simply pursuing the dynamic of immortality (synthetic) mortality (mankind) or as Marc Kermode has said Bladerunner has hijacked Alien.

It is most interesting that those who give Covenant gravitas say and all the questions will be answered in Awakening - that is a cop out. They were in the environment where every single question left open in Prometheus could have been answered and instead they made an A L I E N retread movie.    

BigDave

"Then have the incoming Engineers arrive at the end, we dont have to see them on Paradise and this saves money.. they could instead have a Juggernaught turn up to Davids Horror and then Walter walks down.... and then we see Engineers."

David's true horror would not be Walter you know, but if it was a resurrected (reanimated, maybe as in American Gods) Shaw would come out and possibly kill him as a compassionate thing for life in the Galaxy.

I found this faux poster online. I bet this would have grabbed the attention of many Prometheus fans :-)

Michelle Johnston

I wish that the writers would only make it out to be only self perceived immortality.

red0guy@gmail.com

In one regard Covenant was audacious and ADF more so - the prologue. It really deals with this issue (as far as I am concerned) that Peter Weyland dazzled by his own creativity conjures up the notion that a mechanical being is immortal but he misses the vital point which could have been the basis for the most audacious and wonderful of stories that what makes mankind immortal is the soul.... which of course David when he is ignited does not have. 

In my vision the secret of Paradise should have been that the source of their power is mechanical (linking to the smaller theme of the Bio Mechanical creature). That David discovered the grace of humanity which is love in his feelings for Elizabeth and as a machine found his soul through infecting and destroying the source of their power. This with Elizabeths sacrifice would have brought the story in a majestic full circle from the acolyte of the new world to Shaw and David and reveal a truth which we all know that sacrifice small or large is an action of grace and goodness which years later Ripley pursues with the end of her story. 

Thematically all of that ties the big things from small beginnings of the entire series. Origin creationism, interfered fallen creationism and redemption through sacrifice. 

For those obsessed by the XXX121 all you need to know is it belongs to the second movement of the story.

I don’t think the creature is cooked. It’s just that many fans are a bit disappointed in how AC was made, but I think many of us will come to like it, sufficiently, as time goes by.

How to save the franchise? In what way does it have to be saved? It did/does reasonably well in theaters (concerning money) and money will pour in from blu-rays/DVDs etc.

I think that the alien franchise will live on and that there will pop up new films every now and then, just like King Kong, Phantom of the Opera, Frankenstein etc . . .

The genre is sci-fi-horror so you must of course like that genre in order to appreciate these films. “The Crossing” was very nice, but it’s more of the drama genre? I think most of us here wants to see more films/stories centred in the alien universe, just as it’s fun to see the continuation of the Star Wars saga?

I’m looking forward to Alien: Awakening as well as Alien: Covenant - Origins. The show must go on . . .

"Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if its appearance disturbs you, surely you can admire the skill that went into its design.  In case you are wondering,  I had nothing to do with it.  It lies as I found it,  a supreme example of the Engineers' skill.  And also, I suppose,  of their hubris." Those were the words of David while showing the Egg in his lab to Oram. The eggs were created by Engineers in thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. David only did reverse engineering re-creating small eggs like those on the table until he made the ones in the basement. So the meaning is that the eggs were created by biological and genetic engineering.

 With the words'in order to create one must first destroy' David describes his experiments on Holloway, Shaw, all Engineers and fauna of Paradise. He destroyed them all in his pursuit to create the perfect organism. He does not refer to the pathogen and my theory is that the catalyser ingested by the sacrificial engineer is totally different from the pathogen. 

The eggs from the derelict ship in Alien could not have been created by David because the chestburster looked different in both movies. The one from Alien looked more of Engineers ancient design.

hox

@joylitt, Nobody laughed in the (large) audience at the screening I attended. In my opinion, the scene is sheer brilliance. The baby Alien has glistening beauty in the destruction that it creates (hard to disagree with David's description of perfection). The music is rousing. David signals his presence, begging an acknowledgement, echoing the theme of Holloway's sacrifice. The limbs unfold and spread. The little monster, only seconds old, senses its power and superiority. It doesn't see, but it sees. It acknowledges its maker.

Same here. No one laughed. The only snigger came from the predictable innuendo of David's like to Walter "I'll do the fingering"

Love it or hate it, the birth is an incredible use of CGI... Something so terrifying looks almost vulnerable with its spindly legs and tiny teeth... We of course know this to be a false sense of security...

Michelle Johnston

There is a very simple answer. The Alien Pathogen was created out of punishment for unauthorised sub creation by fallen angels who were turned into serpents metaphorically speaking the allegory of Paradise Lost but Ridley rather than pursue that has in his view gone for the much more interesting story which many people here are in denial over which is David is the creator of the creature utilising the pathogen in a specific way.

So rather than deal with creationism and a mechanical view of our origins he is simply pursuing the dynamic of immorality (synthetic) mortality (mankind) or as Marc Kermode has said Bladerunner has hijacked Alien.

It is most interesting that those who give Covenant gravitas say and all the questions will be answered in Awakening - that is a cop out. They were in the environment where every single question left open in Prometheus could have been answered and instead they made an A L I E N retread movie.

The problem is, regardless of which movie we got, whether it was the Prometheus follow-up, or the modern Aliens for the Cameron die-hards, these answers were never going to be shoved into one movie.

Focusing the movie on the Engineers alone, as much as many of us would have loved it, would have put the franchise into Cardiac Arrest. Unfortunately, too many want the action of Aliens, which is why RS brought back the Xeno at all. It really is a case of trying to please as many as possible by giving the action fans the Xeno moments, and the exposition fans of Prometheus, a little insight into our so-called ancestors, something I am glad for, however small the nod was. It at least means that we will see more of them in the next film.

Well...compared to Star Wars:

Alien series 6 films: 2 great, 4 mediocre.

The bad:questionable storylines, silly scenes. ?

Star Wars 7 films: 2 great, 5 mediocre.

The bad: Jar Jar, midichlorians, fighting yoda, questionable acting, child actors, questionable storylines, silly scenes, etc...So many cringe inducing scenes. I've probably forgotten another hundred....

I would think Star Wars should be the one who needs saving! Lol!

We've ducked the child actor trainwreck(Newt was excellent *whew*)

No Jamaican accented synths. "Yo mon, needs the servin'?, okey dokey....catchen' ya' later then mon"

Alien: Covenant could have introduced child actors(it's a colony ship)! Have a scene or two, where the children are threatened by a facehugger! Cool movies poster maybe? 

I think the series is really, really solid compared to Star Wars. Just doesn't have 1/4(?) of the fanbase.

I think another reason why Covenant did not perform as well as expected was because it was marketed and tried to be a horror movie. 

The thing is, unlike watching Alien for the first time, we know what a xenomorph looks like. They have been seen in five movies now and the Giger design has lost alot of its fear factor because we know it is and how it works. 

Covenant tried to combat this by adding the Neomorph but it had barely any screen time and was pretty much a xenomorph lite.

Prometheus has showed us that there are different species in the Alien universe. I would prefer seeing different Giger monstrosities rather than constantly revisiting the xenomoroh

I'm not against gore and I thought Covenant did it well but that's not all Alien should be about and it didn't start that way either. Alien is a deep and layered franchise and should continue as such. I liked what Covenant did in uniting all the films by following similar themes and I look forward to what Ridley has in store next.

daliens While the novel does bring in a lot of much needed insight at times, it isn't canon. For all intents and purposes, David created the Xenomorph from scratch using what the Engineers have already done, the Deacon.

Seph7 "The problem is, regardless of which movie we got, whether it was the Prometheus follow-up, or the modern Aliens for the Cameron die-hards, these answers were never going to be shoved into one movie.

Focusing the movie on the Engineers alone, as much as many of us would have loved it, would have put the franchise into Cardiac Arrest. Unfortunately, too many want the action of Aliens, which is why RS brought back the Xeno at all. It really is a case of trying to please as many as possible by giving the action fans the Xeno moments, and the exposition fans of Prometheus, a little insight into our so-called ancestors, something I am glad for, however small the nod was. It at least means that we will see more of them in the next film." 

This. Ridley has planned for several films so of course he wasn't going to answer everything at once because then it would defeat the purpose and allure of the prequels. A lot of the answers from Prometheus are in the film for those willing to look too.

"Nobody laughed in the (large) audience at the screening I attended. In my opinion, the scene is sheer brilliance. The baby Alien has glistening beauty in the destruction that it creates (hard to disagree with David's description of perfection). The music is rousing. David signals his presence, begging an acknowledgement, echoing the theme of Holloway's sacrifice. The limbs unfold and spread. The little monster, only seconds old, senses its power and superiority. It doesn't see, but it sees. It acknowledges its maker."

Beautifully said hox :-)

daliens

Quoting elements from ADF's excellent novelisation has already done the rounds here from those like Chli who reject entirely the notion that the specific XXX121 mutagen outcome is the result of David's painstaking work carried out over his many years on Paradise. That a Xeno like outcome (a wolf) had been created by the Engineers in Eons gone by is obvious from LV 223. ADF is on record as saying the answer is meant to be ambiguous so people can work through their own need. This issue of when did the first face hugger get made worries some people and the creators respectful of this view give them a door to walk through. 

Seph7

Your conjecture that Ridley is trying to mediate the needs of those who want an action tentpole movie more akin to A L I E N S verses those who want something thoughtful and intellectually challenging where we are not spoon fed like Prometheus is actually the entire point of this thread and the danger for the franchise so we are constantly repeating the key theme and not recognising the reason we are here which is that Covenant undersold Prometheus.

Prometheus brought back people like myself to the franchise who are not the slightest interested in an action monster movie and one centred on a monster designed in 1979. Fox/Ridley, Speights/Lindelof recognised this tug of war. Paglen,Green/Logan tussled with this tug of war and the result is Covenant with its tired troped 3rd act and shorts outside of the movie like The Last Supper, Advent and the Crossing and the "Meet Walter" offering far more interesting elements which have drama, real emotional engagement and oddly enough in the case of Advent answer every question you have of David from the moment he was repaired to the moment of the last page of Covenant. Ironically this shows that exposition can reveal huge amounts of story in very short order when executed in a creative way. The notion that thoughtful exposition kills off momentum was never an issue in the 20th century cinema its just in this hyper knowledge saturated age where people have the attention spans of a gnat have made studios nervous. But I put it to you those shorts full of all types of different content show that 5 minutes can achieve a huge amount in cinema without killing the narrative.   

That said as Dave has said like me when he left viewings of Covenant he heard people say it was OK but wow it was far to slow and took to long to get going. They are there for their breaking bones fix whilst they much on Popcorn and nothing else and unfortunately in the more general publics mind that what an Alien prefix movie is all about. I  have a number of friends who are surprised that I would go and see Covenant knowing I like a thoughtful film that again demonstrates the problem with the brand. If you want bigger audiences you need to break out and ensure that if the fan boys go you explain why they are not wearing helmets.   

Michelle Johnston well, I want to believe the Juggernaut found on the derelict in Alien is not David in his attempt to set loose his creatures to rule the Galaxy.

And the mural from Prometheus clearly shows facehuggers, so they were on the market thousands of years before David or Weyland-Yutani. 

I choose to believe that David tried to replicate the alien morph and the eggs were the result of genetical engineering and intended as a biological weapon. By Engineers. 

So far I still have reasons to believe so, no matter some consider same as not being canon. The canon is continuously updated by Ridley Scott but some predictability is there, the puzzle gets some clarity.

@ Michelle

I agree with your description of the tug-of-war between satisfying a broader audience (so the production company will get its money back), that is between a straight forward sci-fi-horror-action movie, and a more drama-based story with emotional and philosophical depth. But would you have preferred that the movie flopped, and that just a bunch of intellectuals ravished in its depth?

There is also a gender issue here, I think, where women tend to be drawn to drama (emotional problems between the characters) and men who are more drawn to action (sci-fi, horror, and action are predominantly male movie genre preferences). So, from that point of view, in order to get a broader audience (women), it might have been even wiser to focus more on the relationship between David and Shaw (like in “The Crossing”)? James Cameron succeeded with just this in Titanic where you have a perfect blend of the love story between Rose and Jack, and the action filled catastrophe?

I don’t think I quite agree with you when you say killing off momentum wasn’t an issue in 20th-century cinema? In fact, that very aspect was the reason why they cut out the scene where Dallas is egg-morphed (Alien -1979). Interestingly, Ridley Scott put that scene back in the director’s cut (2003) so this must be considered as canon? So, there we have the egg which is consistent with Giger, the mural etc, and back to square one whether David could be the creator . . .

However, I have come to look at it as “the creator-issue” not being too important. All agree that the engineers created the pathogen/mutagen, and that is the real weapon of mass destruction.