Engineer Sacrifice Ritual (enhanced)

id agree ati, I assume if it was their homeworld, given the technology they have and given the nature of some of the weapons the have created, they would have a much better form of security and defence. david just enters the atmosphere, kills everyone and spends 10 years or so alone on the planet with no consequence in that time? im not sure about origae 6 either as im sure they would have sent probes ahead and would have picked up some form of civilisation in there findings no?

As for the lv-426/lv-223 mystery, nobody knows where they are. Anything is possible! Look at the two official definition and you'll find that they are contradictory: WY report:in the system/website info:outside the system...

According to Lindelof, they are not around the same planet.

its been well stated the 2 moons orbit the same gas giant. theres a third but no name or designation is given for it though.

yes anything is and seems to be possible in this prequel series

I do not know anything. :)

I just wanted to say that the sources available are contradictory. However, it is possible that this fact is intentional.

Perhaps the last chapter will reveal everything and answer every question. :)

Don't forget: the Weyland-Yutani report is just a collection of the info available. S.M was involved in the project but couldn't answer this mystery some months ago. He couldn't because it is impossible to answer.

Indeed the locations are the same, i would safely assume.. by that the Back Ground to the Alien Covenant Prologue and the Prometheus opening Scene.

But i think this is only as a Easter Egg a just by coincidence they look the same and i think its to relay the connection only as far as them both showing CREATION... the One Showing Mankinds Creation, and the other Davids.

I just cant buy that Weyland had any video or had any probe that had been to Paradise/Planet 4 prior to even the Prometheus Mission as this would bring in a lot of Plot Holes... like did they know of the Engineers all along etc etc

If the Prometheus Prologue was actually on Earth however... then yes i could see how the same location was used by Weyland.

But thats just my personnel opinion, i think we need not read to much into the Prometheus Prologue Setting and take it as RS intended to, which is to show us this is how the Engineers Seed Worlds and so that Scene could have been on any Planet, and not just Earth or Earth... his comment is ambiguous to mean either.

ati, im sure u know plenty bud and iv seen enough posts of urs to prove this. ur r spot on, a lot of what we see, read and hear so far has been completely contradictory. I think that's part of why certain topics seem be to be discussed time and again. there is no structure to the path that is being taken. and what ever happened to this so called '10 page bible' on the alien universe that was going to solidify things?

@ATI

Did Lindeloff actually mention this and when?  have you a Source? as this would be interesting, but then it depends if this is just his interpretation... maybe because the World he and RS had envisioned together is nothing like Paradise. Paradise looks a bit more like what the Source i had described.. which was not the Engineers Homeworld.  As they claim Paradise it not their Homeworld.

I think it would be a bit too Shoe-horned and a coincidence if Origae-6 is actually a Engineer Home-world or a World where they seeded Life.

Unless its a world that at one time had Life, connected to the Engineers but has long since been in Ruin.

the weyland files were put into the dvd boxset, if they wernt meant to be taken as fact, why they there?

sorry they were in the blu ray extras, my apologies. but they r as much canon imo as davids olive branch message to the company.

BigDave - You're asking about that we haven't seen the homeworld yet?

He mentioned this piece of info in an interview (no source, sorry) and he added that he thought that Ridley would show the Engineer homeworld in the next movie.

That's why I think that Origae 6 will be the homeworld. And, as you know, there will be a big meeting of four participants there. The best place for a this kind of meeting is a homeworld, isn't it? :D 

think the subject was on lv223 and lv426 and lindelof saying they wernt around the same planet. may be wrong though

I left out the cup going over the waterfall...the image really tied the topic together.

Thank you Lawrence of Arabia, BigDave, Ati, dk, ali81, and Space JOC for the discussion. Each of you have a rich contribution and I appreciate every word.

Cosmonaut-Copper, I believe David 8 told Dr. Shaw the Engineers were going to attack humanity to "create" something from humanity's destruction.

David 8 knew more than what he shared with the Prometheus crew regarding the Engineer's plans.

You're welcome Ingeniero :-) and thank you for the compliment on my wordplay. I pride myself on speaking well. 

As for my opinion on this matter, I try to take everything Fox has made official canon until the contrary. If it's available through official merchandise then it is canon imo. As to Lindeloff, I would take his view with a grain of salt since he isn't a part of Ridley's table anymore and is speculation. I would also be upset if Origae-6 turned out to be an Engineer home world because then that would be too convenient and Daniels & crew researched that planet to the moon and back and found no other life aside from fauna. As for the defenses on Planet 4, I would throw it up to the Engineers/whatever did not expect in the slightest another species finding their way there on a Juggernaut of all vessels. These are the gardeners of space and for all intents and purposes the creators of life, they have no competition.

Does any of this (below) in regards to the constellation, planet data visible, and Galactic Location mean anything to anyone?

I'm sorry if I missed someone's observation on the constellation and star maps. The images above are more clear than what I had seen before.

Great topic from BigDave on Planet 4 in the system.

Great screen grabs. Thanks.

I always thought the little objects escaping from the Engineers looked like swarms of bees or insects. I remember one of the commentaries on the DVD calls them gnats.

So is that what I see swarming all around the Engineers after David drops the black fluid jars on them?

Here is a major David quote from the novel, talking to Oram in his lab. It fully explains how the black goo works. Note, no mention of the tiny insect-spores here, just airborne black goo particles -

"How could your body's own immune system possibly defend itself? A genetically engineered counter-virus, for example, or a human body's own white blood cells, would immediately be met by the pathogen adapting itself, to counter the counter, and so on. As a weapon or a method of biological cleansing, it is simply impossible to defend against. The original liquid atomizes to particles when exposed to the air. It then reproduces in whatever host it happens upon, and eventually gives rise to more liquid, which at the approprite time atomizes, and so on and so on, the cycle repeating itself almost endlessly."

The spores-insects from the mutated fungus are very different to the airborne black goo particles we see floating off the Engineer and/or raining down from David's black goo attack in Covenant.

Youre welcome Ingeniero ;)

As for the Graphic of the System.... i am not sure where it is. the Draft by Logan posted yesterday does suggest the Covenant Ship was some 246? or so Light Years from Earth when it intercepted the Transmission from Dr Shaw etc.  But as we dont have any departure date for when the Covenant left Earth we cant be sure of the Speed of the Covenant.. because if the draft had mentioned they had been traveling for say 2 years and then the jump to Planet 4 was 7 weeks  then we could estimate that Planet 4 would be about 260-265LY away give or take... but with no date for when the mission left we simply cant be sure... if we did have a date or departure or how many years they traveled for example if it was 2 years and the distance given in Logans Draft is correct then we could estimate that Origae-6 would be say about 1160LY from Earth.  But as we dont have ANY Data as far as time traveled by the time the Covenant encountered the Neutrino Burst its hard to say.

So all i can make out is that this System has a very Earth like Star and 5 Planets, and that Paradise is the 4th from the Sun, but one of the Planets has a elliptical orbit and so this Planet could at times be 3rd closest and others 4th/5th.

Thanks, I have read those book quotes here many times. I thought he was talking about the original goo leaking from the urn room in Prometheus. That reacted with the air when the door was opened.

Thing is, in Covenant the black goo needs some way to move through the air. Liquid cant just move on its own. Both movies shows us swarms of something flying through the air.  I have read both the Alien Engineers and the Covenant script leaked yesterday and they both describe insects up close but we never go to see that in the actual swarms scenes.

I guess this is just Scott wanting to be vague and not tell us exactly whatis going on. It seems we are supposed to come to the conclusions that the goo converts its victims tissue into insects that fly around and infect other victims.

@ATI

I remember these interviews, where he and RS had said they are off to the Engineers Homeworld,  RS had however referred to Planet 4 in Alien Covenant as the Homeworld of what he called the Original Engineers.

But its likely Planet 4 is just one of many Outposts/Colonies these Engineers are on.  I had mentioned this a few times, well more lol  and that Paradise in context to the Bible is...

*Not where GOD comes from.

*Not where the Angels come from.

*Place where the Garden of Eden is located

*Place where the Cradle of Human Civilization originated

*Place that is Guarded and Watched over by the Cherubim Caste of Angels

If we take Planet 4 as being the Proverbial Paradise, then it shows us that this World is where Mankind came from that our Origins came from here and the beings who dwell on Paradise. And these beings are watched over by another Hierarchy Race of similar beings who may Originate from another place and come back time to time to check in on the beings on Paradise.

I think this is not far off what Alien Covenant is showing.

I think Origae-6 to be a Engineer world would be a bit too much of a Coincidence, but it sure makes for a Shoe-horned plot.  But some already complained how could David had arrived and Bombed a Engineer World... so i guess we have to ask how does David arrive with a Human Ship and merely Alien Eggs and unleash Hell on those Engineers of Origae-6

I think the Engineers Origins are Ancient and located across vast distances of the Universe never mind our Galaxy and so i think it would be a bit to coinsidence that a Engineer Outpost was located 39LY from Earth, and then Paradise say 250-270LY from Earth and then another more Engineer Homeworld located just 7.5 Human  Ship years travel from Paradise.

I would assume the point is that Origae-6 has not Humanoid life on it... but thats not to say they cant show us the place ONCE had a Civilization that lies ruins, and had been destroyed thousands of years earlier.

So its still pretty open and up for debate what Origae-6 would be like, all we can tell is that Paradise/Planet 4  Minus the effects of the Bombardment by David, was a more Earth like World than Origae-6 was.

@Ingeniero - Great topic!

"Does any of this (below) in regards to the constellation, planet data visible, and Galactic Location mean anything to anyone?"

I compared those to the graphics in Alien and Prometheus, and nothing seems to match. I think we have gone round and round on that one with nothing definitive, since the non movie sources contradict each other.

Going by only what we see only in the movies  -

Alien - Lambert says the moon is "just short of Zeta 2 Reticuli". We see a ringed gas giant with three moons orbiting it. The moon they orbiting the gas giant is later named as LV-426, but that's not in the movie.

Covenant - We see and are told that the system has a main sequence star like Earth and 5 planets. Planet 4, where they land, has two moons orbiting it. Planet 5 is a ringed gas giant.

Prometheus - A menu graphic on the DVD/Blu Ray states this is the Zeta 2 Reticuli system, but it is never stated in the movie. Holloway's graphic shows us a ringed gas giant with only two moons, one labeled LV-223. The gas giant in the movie looks very different to the one seen in Alien, so it is not the same planet, just another planet orbiting the same star as in Alien.

Since the Covenant graphic only shows one gas giant orbiting the star, it is not the same solar system as we see in Alien and Covenant. Also, David and Shaw would have been there in no time if it was just a matter of going from one planet to the next in the same system.

...and speaking of star maps. This is Shaw's map from the Weyland website.

It is the same map as the Betty and Barney Hill UFO abduction from the 1970s.

They claimed to be kidnapped by aliens from the Zeta Reticuli system, and drew that map of where they went. I don't know if that was supposed to be a little joke from Fox or not.

@Thombach - I think you hit the nail on the head. The visual evidence points to flying warms of "something" in both scenes, but until we see it happen up close we will never know for sure exactly what those things look like. All we have is that drawing from David showing a mote up close and the script references to extrapolate from, which point to tiny flying insects.

Kethol, thank you for the compliment. And let me add how ridiculous cool you are for including the map above from the 1970's.

"It is the same map as the Betty and Barney Hill UFO abduction from the 1970s."

That is so great. We all spoke about this months ago and I had never seen this comparison.

"A menu graphic on the DVD/Blu Ray states this is the Zeta 2 Reticuli system, but it is never stated in the movie. Holloway's graphic shows us a ringed gas giant with only two moons, one labeled LV-223. The gas giant in the movie looks very different to the one seen in Alien, so it is not the same planet, just another planet orbiting the same star as in Alien.

Since the Covenant graphic only shows one gas giant orbiting the star, it is not the same solar system as we see in Alien and Covenant. Also, David and Shaw would have been there in no time if it was just a matter of going from one planet to the next in the same system."

Great point again Kethol.

We just couldn't trust David 8 in what he told Dr. Shaw regarding how far the Engineer home world was. It could have been the next planet over and David 8 would have just lied to get her to go to bed.

You are correct Yog Sothoth.

The many forms of black goo have yet to be shown but the "activation" seen in the urns when David 8 was dropping them on the Engineers below is different from the boiling over disbursement of black goo shown in Prometheus.

"The spores-insects from the mutated fungus are very different to the airborne black goo particles we see floating off the Engineer and/or raining down from David's black goo attack in Covenant."

Yes, the black goo delivery mechanism, quantity, and mutagen-solution type has been quite different in each case.

You're most welcome Thombach.

"So is that what I see swarming all around the Engineers after David drops the black fluid jars on them?"

To try and answer your question, Kethol has a great topic in regards to the ailment befallen the Engineers David 8 visited here.

we also don't see any motes or insect like organisms flying out of the goo when the goo spills out of the urns in Prometheus. it looks just like a liquid goo. more inconsistancies as if there were, why didn't they go for milburn and fifield? plus looking at how quickly they envelope the sacrificial engineer and the engineers on planet 4, the whole crew who entered the room would have been infected. so why wernt they? 

Because those were two different forms of the pathogen. The type that infected the temple worms and Fifield was the mutation version.

We never see Milburn get infected by the black pathogen, so to speak. It appears the hammerpede just killed him. His dead tissue looks pretty messed up though.

that's the reason I think the same, there is more than one form of it

Here are additional shots of the Covenant screens in search of where the Paradise planet/system is and to the topic (where did the Engineer sacrifice himself).

Thank you for the great discussion on black goo forms ali81.

I created "Millburn's Folly" to explain characteristics seen in the form of black goo in Prometheus carrying on to the neomorph seen in Alien: Covenant.

Kethol created the topic "Various forms of the Black Pathogen" and goes to great length explaining this subject. 

so 'get back to the effing topic ali81'? lol

sorry was only responding to comments. on the topic, my 2 cents worth. I don't see the point of it being anywhere other than earth. yes ridley says he gets annoyed everyone automatically puts it on earth and true, it could be anywhere and just showing us the process. but then why not earth if, if the plot of Prometheus is humans, created on earth, are searching for our makers? to me the intention of the opening scene is to show the viewer 'this is what happened hundreds of thousands of years ago on earth, and we are the result'.

"Thank you for the great discussion on black goo forms ali81."

Oh no ali81...I was sincere in regards to the discussion. I was sarcastic-huffy earlier in the topic when discussing the planets but please know I appreciate the contribution from you. 

Black goo is definitely on topic but I wanted to point out Kethol's topic above on the subject because it is so thorough. For real, thank you and please discuss as you wish. 

"yes ridley says he gets annoyed everyone automatically puts it on earth and true, it could be anywhere and just showing us the process. but then why not earth if, if the plot of Prometheus is humans, created on earth, are searching for our makers?"

Ridley Scott's comments were why I was convinced that the opening scene of Prometheus was not Earth.