Fate of the Engineers

Michelle Johnston

You keep saying about this mechanistic nature of the engineers but how do you explain the self-sacrifice practiced by them? And the ancients worship (the statues of Engineers all over Planet 4)? What need for any of that if you are a machine hence without a "soul"?

And the opposite of Paradise is not necessarily Hell, as that is populated by fallen angels not by primordially evil angels. And It would have not be necessary to be inspired only by Abrahamic religion, as the Engineers were already a mish-mash of fallen angels, Greek statues and Sumerian gods. Why not go wild and make a version of the Xenomorph the original "gift-bearers", as in the case of the Sumerian primordial goddess Tiamat? 

What ever ... we have an insane robot on planet for 10 years studying a planet he bombarded with a substance that wipes out all animal life, but finds specimens to draw, to dissect, to temper with their dna while living in a cave, using quills as writing instruments and playing to the picture of the Woman he loved and killed. And he even created some species of flowers in her memory...

"Bigdave, how can the xenomorph or black goo be useful to eradicate a species? You would then need to eradicate the xenos just to utilize the planet again for a new experiment"

I think this could De-rail the Topic a bit and go off track but i will try and answer this as quick as i can, we certainly dont have any full information on the Reasons and Agenda yet as far as the Engineers, its open to debate and personnel theories... AC changed the Plan, made David the Creator but in doing so gave us some more clues to WHY he did the things he did... which could take up a lot if it try and explain why i feel he did.

So i will try and address it at the basics... We dont have much of a answer for the Black Goo as its something those working on the movies are tinkering with as far as the Plot, so looking solely at Prometheus and then taking Alien Covenant into account can give us a different verdict.  But at the Basic Level here is what the TWO Bio-Weapons show us.

*The Xenomorph appears and did before to be a Invasive Species, a Parasite to a degree but more evolved to a Engineered Organism (from Aliens on wards) that acts purely as a Invasive Species, if you have a Massive Rat/Mice Problem you get some Cats, and this i feel simply was the case with the Xenomorph it would be unleashed and just Procreate its kind and kill all Life (well most) on a set Location it is unleashed on.  As a Bio-Weapon its not very effective.... its kind of the Same as inventing a Zombie Virus Bio-Weapon unleash it on a Country and then the infection will spread and destroy all Life in that area.

The thing we have not seen yet or been shown, but RS had pondered is IF the Xenomorph has a limited Life-Span then as a Weapon it would be more effective, you wait until the Xenomorph has killed off most of the viable suitable sized Organisms, and then the Xenomorphs die off... then you come back and the World has had its Slate cleaned to a degree and should be ready for Re-seeding.

This makes more Perfect Sense as a Weapon if the Xenomorph is as Alien showed, and it does not Procreate, then as a Weapon it is Effective, but with the DC we see the Xenomorph can Egg Morph, which if the Xenomorph has a limited Life Span could result in the left over Eggs, which could maybe be obtained to use again.. so this route is still a decent Weapon.

The introduction of a Queen however does make this more of a case of introducing a Pest/Parasite to Eradicate another Pest/Parasite, its the case of the Story of the Woman who Swallowed a Fly, then Swallowed a Spider to Eat the Fly etc.....  More so if the Xenomorph can spread over a wide area where Multiple Nests/Hives can be set up and each with Queens... Essentially if the Xenomorphs are like Giant Space Ants/Termites then they indeed are effective Weapon but not ideal unless you only intend to Destroy the Life on that World.

But the Engineers may as well use some kind of Nuke or Biological Disease.  So yes your Question is a good one, and the Big Question depends on how long does a Queen Live? and do Xenomorphs die out eventually.  Then depending on this answer... we have to ask WHY use such a Weapon then... if its used just as a State would with a Nuke, then i guess the whole ALIENS Bio-Weapon makes sense.  But then we dont know if the Queen was a Unexpected Mutation.

The Black Goo Weapon, again this depends how we view this Weapon, it has flaws as far as its purpose because it seems FOX/RS cant make there mind up what it is....  The basics as far as what Prometheus showed and Alien Engineers (earlier draft to Prometheus) that the Seeding Catalyst Substance, is a means to Spread a Organisms DNA to allow this DNA to Evolve Organic Life to take on traits of the Organism the Seeding Catalyst Substance has been exposed too...  But Alien Covenant muddied the Waters with this a bit.

So what we have now is the Black Goo in Prometheus would mutate Life on a World into having Xenomorph DNA.... but then it depends how the Black Goo reacts when used in this FORM. Ridley Scott suggested that Fifield and Holloway would have ended up the same fate as the Engineer Exploding Head.  And so we can assume the Substance (Activated Urns) on Humanoids, infects them mutates them and makes them agressive but then they simply would break down into more Parasitic Substance (Top Part of the Glass Vials in the Urns) or just become NOTHING.

Alien Covenant appears to show us that the Urns when Activated in different way (maybe Programed) to work in a different way, will when applied in Large Doses either attack Genetic Material and break it down, or (maybe depending how Weapon is Activated/Programed) will just turn the Genetic Material into hardened Material and Solidify Genetic Matter.

However the effects, on other Life, or maybe areas not hit by the main Blast Radius will see Organic Matter (maybe just some kinds of Organism) take on Traits that are related to the Xeno/Deacon DNA.  Or that maybe leaking Urns not Activated by the Ships Weapon System, that get loose and LEAK will infect Life in a different way.

So the Black Goo

1) if we look at Prometheus would either infect most life to Evolve into something with Xeno DNA, or that the Lifeforms would mutate but then break down either into more Parasitic Substance Material or to nothing.. (well Genetic Building Blocks would just be scattered to nothing) this makes for a Potentially Dangerous Weapon and again we have to wonder if Life Evolved by the Black Goo can Procreate and if it has limited Life Span then we can be looking at similar to the Invasive Xenomorph Species affect.

If the Goo mutates then breaks down Organisms into nothing, then its a Perfect Weapon for Totally Eradicating Life... If it breaks Organisms down into a Substance/Virus/Parasite then its a case of how long before the resulting Parasite/Virus dies off..... so thus not so much a Perfect Weapon.

2) With what AC revealed, then the effects would be pretty much similar to the latter part of above, where Organic Life would be mutated so that each Genetic Building Block would eventually mutate into a hardened material, or break down into  nothing.....     Then this would seem a Perfect Weapon to Eradicate Life.  But then it depends really on what caused the Neomorph Spores etc instead.

You see the Problem is not a lot of explanation and thought is put into the Black Goo so you have to try and find a solution....  I have a Explanation... which the Black Goo comprises of Components and it depends how these Components are affected/activated to how they react.    The Ship Activates the Urns by some means that Changes how the Components inside operate.... they are then dispersed and Explode and the Resulting Infection Attacks Genetic Material of Organic Life, where it attacks the Cells, Replicates and breaks down the Building Blocks of a Organism (image a Statue made of Lego, getting broken apart) and then after a period of Time, the Parasite just dies off.. as in IT and effected Material it has infected, just turns into Hardened Molecules.

The None Activated Urns could accidentally leak where the Parasite Mutates Organic Life but eventually this Organic Life breaks down into the Parasite, its Building Blocks just evolve into the Parasite and break down into a Substance.     The Period of Time before Organism breaks down, depends on amount of infection and the Type of Organism...  its open to suggest/wonder if this Black Goo affects only some kinds of Organic Matter (because of the Hammerpedes) or would they just break down in time too?

The Urns components are the Glass Vials that contain a Mutagen that effects Organisms Different its maybe a Parasitic Micro Organism, and the amount of this stuff exposed determines the effects.. These Glass Vials are surrounded by a Chemical Material that reacts to certain Environmental Factors and begins to dissolve the Glass and Mix itself with the Pathogen inside becoming a Mixed Biological Soup that rabidly spreads and multiplies the Parasite.

The Urns are supposed to be activated by the Ship in a way that the internal components are effected in a more extreme/intended way so they Explode and Rain down the Mixed Concoction on a World with a different effect.  I did this whole analogy before and i had to use a Nuke to Explain what i was on about.

So i think in AC the Black Goo infected a lot of Life as we saw... but it could not infect all life as there was some Safe Zones where some Life was not infected....   After Davids Juggernaught Crashed into the Mountain which a stream ran down.... some Un-Activated Urns fell out and leaked the Black Goo like in Prometheus into the Stream and this Evolved some Fungi to become the Spores.

I suppose i could have done a nut shell version of above Critters ;)

Here it is....  It depends on the Procreation of the Xenomorph Eggs, does the Organism have limited Life? and is the Queen a Evolutionary Mutation, and the Weapon was not intended to have a Queen but it was a accidental outcome....   Depending on how would a Xenomorph thrive and Procreate on a World when all HOSTS have been used/killed.   Will depend on a World basically being written off, or having to eradicate the Xenomorphs/Queens.

The Black Goo again in a Nutshell (but read my previous post for more info) maybe had a Certain use, the Component in the Glass Vials was not intended as the Weapon, it merely is like say the Plutonium/Uranium of a Nuke.   The Urns as they was stored was intended to be Activated in a Certain way by the Ships Weapons System to effect Life like we saw what happened to the Engineers on Planet 4, so a Reaction is started in those Urns activated by some Mechanism/Process of the Ship... much like how further reactions in a Nuke effect the Plutonium/Uranium to activate a Atomic Explosion.

However these Urns had a Flaw, when not contained a Certain way the Materials can be infected and Merge (substance around the Glass Vial and contents of the Glass Ampoules) which results in the Black Goo effects we see in Prometheus and this stuff can leak into Water and then have different effects...

So as maybe what if the Queen was a accidental Mutation of the Xeno Weapon,  a leaking Un Weaponized Urn can leak into a water and/or effect certain Organic Matter to Produce a Hybrid... hence the Spores.

Thus maybe the intention of the Xenomorph (based on Alien) would be to go and eradicate Life, maybe Egg Morph and Die out, leaving either Nothing or Eggs (if we take the DC version).   The Engineers/David would then have a World Wiped Clean with nothing left, or Eggs to Re-use. 

But the Queen became a Mutation that allowed for Procreation.

Then the Black Goo again intended to Eradicate Life on a World, but a leaked Un-Weaponized Urn can lead to different results which lead to the Spores.

IF-NOT for the Leaked Urns after the Crash (in my proposed theory) the Life in that Area or the World would be Wiped out....  But the crashed ships left over Cargo leaked and caused the undesired Spores.

As far as the points raised by Michelle and Red0guy both good points and this shows the ambiguity and scope of any explanations, they are many and finding which one to think is Correct is hard, its why i abandoned my Prometheus 2/3 drafts attempts... i just could not find ONE Explanation i am happy and i could not incorporate all elements of the different explanations i had to fit nice and not contradict each other.

Red0guy

You are very Correct with your reply, i felt Prometheus had Set us Up for a Story that within RS version of our existence, the Many Ancient Mythos and Religions are just Tales Told and Changed over time of Genuine encounters with these Genetic Space Gardeners who played a role in our Creation and Evolution and were seen by Ancient Man as GOD/Gods

A lot of Ancient Cultures where Polytheistic and then we have the Abrahamic ones that are Monotheistic but all do share some similar themes and stories, yet all differ slightly...   Prometheus showed us all these came from interactions with the Engineers, and these Mythos/Religions are just interpretations from those interactions.  so to UNLOCK the Engineers we have to look at what connects each Ancient Mythos and Religion etc. This is not a easy task...  but my preferred way was to base it more on the oldest recorded Mythos the Mesopotamian ones which most my theories center around but also consider all other Mythos/Religion applied loosely.

However Michelle's points are also Valid because the Prequels appear to touch upon Biblical Connections and well little references here and there more than other Mythos etc,  Ridley Scott even mentioning Biblical connections in terms of Fallen Angels, Paradise Lost and the Space Jesus...  does this mean RS had a greater Emphasis on the Abrahamic themes?   Or are we only to look at them loosely and not take them too literally.

so Jesus = Hybrid Messengers sent to Guide us (so Jesus is one of many, which explains other Star Maps Holloway and Shaw found dated after 2000 years ago Post 0 AD).

Then Perhaps Fallen Angels as in Sinister/Malevolent culture and Agenda of the Engineers, maybe also could mean the Engineers or a Faction acted against the Orders/Agenda of its Hierarchy thus Rebellious. 

The Beauty of all this is any of these can apply, or RS could show us the Truth that all these Myths and Religions are all a Miss-telling/Miss-interpretation and so all these Mythos/Religons are in effect the same the the Dracula Tale (Vampire) regarding Vlad the Impaler  where actually they are not that close to the REAL History/Facts of Vlad the Impaler

I am inclined to RS showing us a continued tale of Creation/Sub-Creation Rebellion, that the latest Run of this Ladder is Davids Arc  which Echoes that of Lucifer and so i am inclined to think Mankind on Earth Rebel/Go against its intended Plans as far as why they was created, and they Sub-Create David and we see the same things happen to Synthetics, as we did against our Creators, and i feel this continues with the Engineers doing the same to their Creators and so on and so on.

Which if this is the case... then Davids Creation will Rebel against him.

red0guy & BigDave

I think your both slightly missing the point of my remarks. My views on what RS was trying to do at the time of Prometheus and what he was trying to do at the time of Covenant and what  the two films "mean" is long over.

I am answering Big Dave's point that it is to difficult to make a coherent answer out of what Prometheus implied or could have lead to. 

My view is quite different. With some small tinkering Prometheus could have set up the answers for a coherent and clear set of answers to be provided by Prometheus Pandemonium. 

The first film is about Weyland's search for our creators. Those ancient astronauts that visited earth and left behind clues and foot prints. The big reveal is we created a mythos around them which is entirely incorrect they were not spiritual gods they were merely using their gift to Engineer mankind. The gift made to them by the creators required a Covenant of sacrifice and it is the rebellion against that sacrifice that lead to LV 223 and a desire for unauthorised sub creation out of which the punishment of the Xenomorph emerges. The LV426 Juggernaut was a particularly ritualistic form of sub creation on route to Paradise to pollute the Einherjar of Valhalla. But because the Pathogen held a booby trap with in its creation gene it turned on its sub creators and wiped out LV 223 and the infested pilot of the Juggernaut. It would have made sense for the Jockey to be a particularly important part of this punishment for rebellion because its such an important part of the first films iconography. 

To me its obvious that a parasite that terrorises, subjugates, rapes its victim and then leaves its own mark on it is a punishment tool to make it a "species" is neither biologically logical or morally correct in the real world from which we view this entertainment.

The Engineers in their hubris built self reversional emblems of their conceit and the kind of imagery in both films, which we never receive an answer on, is about recognising particularly important Engineers in that sub creative process. ...except it isn't because the twist at the end of Pandemonium is that they are imagers of their creators (the occupants of the tear drop ship) and at the end of the second film David and Elizabeth after the destruction of Paradise and its mechanistic source of power they receive the revelation of the creators which can be left highly emblematic so we can place our own interpretation of its meaning on it. But the clearest dramatic point is Elizabeth finds her answers not in the Engineers but in the creators and David represents a turning point in the creation story of Artificial Intelligence but in the traditional sense both "die".

These two films would have been visually impressive and set the imagination wild but also left us to ponder and consider but not as we do from a position of chaos and contradictory narrative decisions but certainty. That these kind of movies would be strong on symbolism, high on character and in story telling terms look nothing like A or A's would have had the "monster we needs it" brigade foaming at the mouth but they are anyway. These would have been grown up films made by a man towards the end of his life bucket listing the question that my generation had when they watched A L I E N in the late 70's. and for any millennials who cared to think for themselves rather than be spoon fed an action monster movie.       

BigDave

"then David's Creation will rebel against him" that was painfully obvious from the start, enforced by him comparing himself to Ozymandias. Walter, that was the problem, not that he misquotes the poet, it is that he does not understand what he quotes. So what's the point of any sequel?

Michelle Johnston

Well, we have what we have, monster more and more monsters. Well isn't the mirror enough for anyone?

only way they can use the planet again is if the have something to counter act the pathogen or a some kind of virus that kills the xenos. this is ofcourse IF the engineers wish to use the planet at all. again we know nothing of the engineers or their motivation so its hard to gauge whats what at the moment. do they view species like humans as a mistake and wish the planet to be uninhabitable or do they have plans for the planet after the pathogen has been released? both are extremely effective weapons to kill off all fauna on a planet but the 'fallout' remains deadly  and makes colonisation of the planet very hard if not impossible unless there is a counter measure

Bigdave, I guess it also depends on if its the Engineers using the black goo or David because they seem to have different end games for its usage. 

The queen likely isn't going to be a mutation if David said in the deleted scenes that Davis will be his queen. 

Indeed Critters my points were based on what Prometheus kind of led us to, now David created the Xenomorph that changes things a bit.  I was looking at the Black Goo and Xenomorph Eggs for the Purpose of a Weapon used to clear out Worlds, assuming both was created by the Engineers.

We really need to know what is the Plans/Purpose for wiping out Life with their Bio-Weapons, if it is to return to start again, then there must be a time-frame after the Black Goo and/or Xenomorphs that the World would be Safe to Return...  who knows how many years this could take, it could take Hundreds or Thousands before a Cleansed World is now a Clean Slate again...  but these Time-Frames may not appear so long in the Grand Scheme of it all as far as the Engineers go.

I dont think the Engineers would use these Weapons to purely destroy a World and thus Write this World off, unless the Bio-Weapons were a more recent creation (thousands of years) as a direct reaction to Humans on Earth.

@Michelle

I have to agree with a lot of what you said, i think the beauty with Prometheus and its set up is the range of how things could be answered is quite large, the scope is massive...  I think behind the Plots, the Creation, Sub-Creation and Rebellion Themes are KEY the reasons why the Engineers may have wanted us dead could be the same reason that in Hindsight what Danger creating our own AI has become.  Also another reason for our intended Destruction could be similar to the reasons for David in part wishing to do the same.  Feeling that Mankind is a wicked race, and in-superior and do not deserve the life they was granted.

The layers that can be fit over this or explain this is where it can take many directions, i think this would have opened up a very interesting Plot, and hopefully we can still explore these. I think answering the WHY we was created and WHY the Engineers Seed Worlds, is something that has to answered, and then WHY invest in such Bio-Weaponology to then Eradicate Life they created.

I think Prometheus gave us a lot of clues to the WHY we need to be destroyed, and Davids Arc could well be giving us the answers we need, if David manages to use the Xenomorph, or not if AI becomes Sentient and overthrows Mankind on Earth... in Hindsight what a Hubris for Sub-Creating this would have been... in Hindsight Mankind would then realize creating AI let alone allowing it more Free-will is something we should never had attempted.

Again scenes with David also answer maybe WHY we was created, Holloway told David we created him because we COULD in part this is true, the Creation of AI David, shows off how far Mankind has come, that now we can play GOD and create Life in our own Image... for Weyland this was the Showpeice to show how Great Weyland really had became, the monumental achievement of a Synthetic being shows off how Great Mankind has become.  Weyland created him to show case how gifted Weyland is, but also to show case and leave a Legacy of LOOK i created this.. much as a Artist does with his Paintings. This Creation also makes Weyland feel he is closer to doing what only GOD had done prior.

But also there is another reason David was created... he was created as a Tool, to Serve and to perform some Function and do Tasks so Mankind no longer had to...

I think if we look at WHY David was created in those two points, i would not be surprised if the Engineers created us for those very TWO reasons too.

There really is so much to be covered with the Engineers, i just hope after AC that they have not done it so there can be no going back now.

A theory i had on David and one i exploring in my Prometheus 2 however, was he was Weylands hopeful way to Cheat Death... Perfect a Synthetic, Perfect a way to Transfer Weylands Soul into it and Weyland would have Cheated Death... his Hubris is he could not perfect the way to transfer his Soul... and having to resort to Dr Shaws findings and meet the real Gods to give him more Life... only to end up with one of these beings killing him with the head of his own creation.