Who Needs a Cooked Beast When You Have James Cameron?

The beast can stay but it doesn't need to be the main focus.

Much untapped potential in the Neomorph, there is. 

dk

Disagree. The beast must be in the main focus. Engineers, humans, WY, AI (especially), black goo - just around. Engineers, probably not, but another themes is so boring.

And the beast isn't cooked, of course. We still haven't seen smart aliens. And, I think, need another movie with alien hive on eggmorphing base. We still haven't seen Ultramorphs, btw. Eventually, need Alien movie with true Space Jockey biomechanical decorations and aliens inside (yeah, AVP2 has a great setting, just replace predators on engineers and greatest dark sci-fi movie is ready!).

I take Aliens over the prequels any day because Aliens had better characters. Despite of this Aliens feels a bit dated, like you can tell that it is an 80’s movie, I am not sure what it is though it is just a vague stupid feeling that I get. My reason for saying that it is a stupid feeling is that I dislike when I can just say that it is a feeling that I get and can’t explain it intellectually, bleh.

Alien 5 is nothing that I am interested in, at least if that means retconning Alien 3. Even though it would not mean that I still am not interested in it. Ripley did fine in Alien 1, 2, and 3 but then it should have ended. This is not to say that I am a huge fan of the prequels, there are some characters that are alright and there are some interesting ideas, monsters, and landscapes but the characters are mostly lame.

DK is right when he says that the beast can be in it but not be the main focus. To me it is more about the human adventure and what you do when you face a dangerous situation. Because of this Alien and Alien 3 are the best movies this far. Different monsters are all fine but if I can not sympathize with the characters then it does not matter how great the effects are or how interesting the monsters look.

Maybe the alien is not cooked but it must not be shown very often. Keep it in the shadows because the imagination is often more powerful than any monster. One example is when you hear the Wampa kill the Tantaun in Star Wars five, you never exactly see what happens so therefore you can use your imagination to fill in what you believe happens. Leto is totally correct that the androids should be in the background otherwise it gets boring (AC is a prime example of this where the androids were given most of the attention and the rest was not handled well) and I also agree that it would be interesting to see an Ultramorph. What I do not agree with is when he says that even the humans should stay in the back for the monster since for me the human characters are the most important thing.

I think it depends how we look at the Xenomorph, and i have to agree it has been Cooked... There are a number of reasons for this....   The First Time we saw the Beast, it was Special, kind of Unique and how it was used made it Scary.

The same could be said about the First Few Freddy Movies and First few Jason Movies.  But the more these Scary Villains/Monsters are Shown, the more they just lose their Effect.   This becomes Repetitive and what does not help is once it is NO-LONGER Fresh and Movies are made purely based off the MONSTER alone and you get some Stinkers! 

This applies to Jason Voorhees and Freddy Krueger too once they started to use the same Formula over and over and a few Poor Movies came out, then the Characters lost their Credibility of HOW SCARY they Originally were. 

The same happened with the Xenomorph, especially after AVPR and the Problem with the Xenomorph compared to Jason or Freddy, is the Xenomorph is NOT Immortal and so it becomes even LESS of a THREAT

Not only Movies like Aliens, Alien Resurrection and the AVP movies but also the Comics and Video Games show us the Xenomorph while Dangerous, is a Threat that the Well Trained and Equipped can deal with.   The countless Xenomorphs killed in Comics, Games and some of the ALIEN movies and AVP means the Xenomorph is simply not the same as a Jason or Freddy, it comes into the Category of Vampires, Zombies and Werewolf's!

Its Life Cycle is Unique and Gruesome the Face Hugger, the Chest Buster etc... but once you have seen this done over and over, it NO-LONGER has the same Effect.

The Beast was revealed as some kind of BUG by Cameron, but we have to remember that RS had said before ALIENS that the Xenomorph was meant to have some Insect and Reptile Traits with a Feminine Beauty to it..  Cameron did not invent the BUG idea so to speak....

Lets look at the Xenomorph before ALIENS!

We have Thousands of Eggs... which means if the Cargo got to Earth we could basically have a AVPR on our Hands... and see Hundreds if not Thousands of Xenomorphs...  while seeing them go around Egg Morphing would be shocking.... the Theatrical Cut showed us they basically go around Hunting and Killing!

The Face Hugger could be Cut and Bleed, and so we can assume the Xenomorph in ALIEN if it landed on Earth and was faced with 10 Marines with Pulse Riffles... it would end up in a Acid Bloody Mess!

This is unless the Xenomorph is in a Environment it can use to Stealthy take down the Humans a Few at a Time!

AND ALAS..... this is what made it Work in Some Movies...

And so the points that Thoughts_Dreams makes over and over are VERY VALID! The Xenomorph is more Scary when it Lurks in the SHADOWS... but it is more Scary when the Characters are in a Jeopardy against the Beast and are not Equipped to deal with the Situation.

In Alien those Humans were not Equipped or Trained to deal with the Xenomorph, they had not idea what they was in for, and they had no means to deal with it... The confines of the Ship suited the Xenomorph, even if they attempted to Shoot it and KILL it then they risk a HULL Breach!

Had they encountered the Xenomorph on a Planet that had a Breathable Atmosphere like Planet 4  they could have attempted to escape into the Open and take what Weapons they had (Guns) and would stand a better chance should the Xenomorph attempt a attack in the OPEN.

This would not have made for a Intense Set of Scenes, not like it did in ALIEN and this is purely because itst he situation of being Helpless that made the Xenomorph Scary.   The same Applied to ALIEN 3

Compare Aliens Colonial Marines or AVP Games with Alien Isolation  and we can see the same effect that the difference between a Alien/Alien 3 has and a Aliens, Alien R and AVP movies had.

If we added a extra element to Alien Isolation where you played instead a Team of Marines in Space Suits Armed to the Teeth, the Xenomorph would not be as much of a threat, it would have to HUNT the Marines using Stealth and the Marines would have NO FEAR of shooting it, because they have Space Suits and so a HULL BREACH would not be a major issue.

Then we have to come back to Thoughts_Dreams again, were indeed, the less we care for a Character, the Less Sense of Helplessness they have, the LESS the effect is.

With the Xenomorph it has to be about HOW it is used, and then the Characters who are faced with the Dilemma Threat have to be ones we can connect with and be put in a Plight that is Helpless.

Also again as Thoughts_Dreams mentions sometimes its what we DONT see off screen that lets us imagine the worst.

I think we also need to look at the Xenomorph as it is...

When we first Encounter it (Alien not AC lol) we had to ask what was the Purpose of those Eggs?

Was it some kind of Alien Organism the Space Jockey Encountered and attempted to take away to Study/Re-Engineer (similar to the Star Beast Plot)...?

The Answer even as far back as after Alien appeared to be NO.... it was not Coincidence the Xenomorph and Derelict shared a Aesthetic and so it was indicated (and confirmed by RS) they was both Created by the Space Jockey Race for the Purpose of WAR... a Bio-Weapon and means to Deploy it.

With such a ROLE, it limits the scope for how SCARY the Xenomorph is, where its only its appearance, the way it KILLS and Procreates that is what makes it Fearful...

Once we have been shown this, there is only so much you can show of it, before it becomes nothing special...

It is then the Purpose and Agenda behind WHO and WHY would someone Create Such Horrific Bio-Weapons that becomes the more Sinister Objective... Hence the Prequels Plot to show the Engineers did it.... changed to David did it.

Thus there is only so much Snarling, Face Hugging, Chest Busting and Killing that can be done before it gets Stale/Repetitive and with NO History/Agenda for the Organism apart from being a Engineered Creation intended to Destroy...  it really limits how FAR and how MUCH we can show the Xenomorph over and over.

This is where you have to Evolve the Organism, have them become Sentient and intelligent and basically do with them what has been done with APES in the PLANET OF THE APES.

Maybe they can Evolve on there own? But to what Level and how long would it take?

Having a Plot were someone attempts to Re-Engineer and Harness the Organism, at a Great Hubris that allows them to Create a Variant that then goes on to Evolve into some kind of Sentient Species with a Agenda, Goal and Conquest is maybe the ONLY way to go.

This may take away some of its Natural Killer Instinct and Feral Nature.... but thats maybe a Sacrifice thats needed.

I think some of Blomkamps ideas could be the way to GO... if done right, but certainly ditch the Ripley, Newt and Hicks and Retcon Alien 3 concept!

The only other way is something FRESH which the Prequel ideas had, but NO soon as Prometheus 2 became a ALIEN Prefix... then Fans are going to expect the Xenomorph to play a LARGE Role!

Here is an idea likely to be unpopular:

Explain the Space Jockey fate. This can be tricky.

The original vision was an egg silo per HR Giger. BigDave expertly demonstrated the proportions of size and scale from the Juggernaught and the silo. It seems the budget couldn't handle that vision in 1979.  

Anyway, explain how the SJ got facehugged and the hole got burnt into the Juggernaught floor. Maybe it is best left a mystery, but it would be the most interesting thing to be explained. A PRIMER: Maybe the facehugger buggered off after impregnating the SJ and burnt into the floor. That would at least explain not finding it near the SJ. BTW- it would have been a BIGGUN to hug that SJ.

It kind of depends on how they use it. Really I think that the demystification started with Aliens where they became canon fodder. Aliens is an OK action movie but the alien was scarier in Alien compared to Aliens but they are two different genres so that might explain it.

Movie monsters very seldom scare me, world events do and movies are fiction, so. They can be but then they must be done and used well.

To me the Xeno can be a part of a movie but not what the movie is about.

Perhaps new versions that are less known and that are also deadly but in different ways can be used but then how many times can that be done? Maybe Scott wants to show us that AI is dangerous but I do not think so since it is man-made so to speak and the Xenos are not. To me Xenos are scarier than robots.

Both the beast and the pilot should have been frightening and they could be. The unknown of the pilot is what made it frightening at least to me perhaps even more so than the Xeno or at least it seems more menacing now when we have seen the Xeno so many times. I mean, if a pilot would carry a plane filled with bio-bombs to a country and try to bomb it, that would be scary and the same applies to the SJ.

".... the Theatrical Cut showed us they basically go around Hunting and Killing!"

Which is why it would be lame to show a movie where the SJ have successfully reached earth and dropped the Xeno there. If they just show us that they crashed then we can imagine how it would be if it reached our planet or if many of them did so. Because they wrote it the way they did it means that we can imagine that scenario even if we are not shown so to speak, that is more scary if you use your imagination.

"This would not have made for a Intense Set of Scenes, not like it did in ALIEN and this is purely because itst he situation of being Helpless that made the Xenomorph Scary. The same Applied to ALIEN 3"

This why it works better in 1 and 3 since there it is just not only to shoot it but they have no weapons so they got to try to figure out more interesting ways to get rid of it. Sure you can not shoot it but when that is out of the options then what do you do? To me this is one of the reasons why Alien and Alien 3 work because it is not about shooting it, you got to try harder so That is scary.

"Also again as Thoughts_Dreams mentions sometimes its what we DONT see off screen that lets us imagine the worst."

Exactly, one thing that happened to me some days ago is that I lost my keys so I started to panic when I thought about what could possibly happen (it went fine in the end though). It was all in my head but I did not see where it was. The same thing applies to scary things in movies about what you see and do not see.

"Then we have to come back to Thoughts_Dreams again, were indeed, the less we care for a Character, the Less Sense of Helplessness they have, the LESS the effect is."

Yeah, I also think about this that they say that the Xenos is cooked and that there were many failures after the first three movies. I would like to argue that the prequels have also done damage to the franchise by demystifying the monsters combined with characters that we do not care for. They also have not managed to make the Engineers horrifying enough even though they could be if they get another movie right but it would take a lot of work. If done right the Engineers could replace the Xeno as a threat, unfortunately how they were done in AC did not help one bit.

"With the Xenomorph it has to be about HOW it is used, and then the Characters who are faced with the Dilemma Threat have to be ones we can connect with and be put in a Plight that is Helpless."

Yes

"It is then the Purpose and Agenda behind WHO and WHY would someone Create Such Horrific Bio-Weapons that becomes the more Sinister Objective... Hence the Prequels Plot to show the Engineers did it.... changed to David did it."

Unfortunately they have both demystified the SJ and the Xeno in the prequels but that is a risk that they took that did not work out well. Add to this the fact that David created it which makes me think that has made more damage to it then the over-exposure that they did with it before. Especially AC made it worse.

"Thus there is only so much Snarling, Face Hugging, Chest Busting and Killing that can be done before it gets Stale/Repetitive and with NO History/Agenda for the Organism apart from being a Engineered Creation intended to Destroy... it really limits how FAR and how MUCH we can show the Xenomorph over and over."

Sure but to make it about a crazy and sadistic robot is not the answer.

"… but thats maybe a Sacrifice thats needed."

At what cost though and what to replace it with? They tried but they failed and now we have it centered around an asshole robot which no one likes and it is all about him and F everything else. I know that this comes off as drastic but they are driving the car (the franchise) in to a ditch so to speak (by focusing on David at the cost of everything that is not David). Sure some might dislike the bug aspect in Aliens but this is far worse, a lot. What is also a bit sad is that one of those that is a part in effing it up is one of those that started it that adds his own often bad ideas into it and screws it up.

"The only other way is something FRESH which the Prequel ideas had…"

A lot of the ideas are interesting but the execution often does not work enough in the prequels, unfortunately.

Fans of "Aliens" often complain about characters badly developed (on Prometheus and Covenant, that is).

But I ask those guys: how many of Cameron's sequel characters were there just to get killed and how's their level of stupidity?

Oh! But they were poorly developed characters of Marines by the All Mighty James Cameron, right? 

Apart from that, let's talk about the beast and how it was easy to be run over with a tank - Cameron's poor idea on how to kill a brilliant ideia that was not his to start with and make it cinematic for the 80's audience.

Cameron cooked the beast and his fans not only can't take it as they hate Sir Ridley Scott's attemps to renew it. Thus the controversial box office.

ScorpioStar I respectfully disagree on some points.

I enjoy the character development of the entire Quadrilogy and find it lacking for the prequels except for David and a couple others who showed promise but were killed off before they could develop.

Aliens characters were well developed regardless of screen time. Apone for instance, didn't have much screen time, but his loss was felt- a loss of Leadership. The Marine characters were typical hooah types from that time when Rambo and male military bravado was popular.

The hive aspect of the alien and how they could be mowed down was not a big deal to me. Their strength was in sheer numbers- consistent of actual hive creatures.

Cameron did not cook the beast. He expanded the possibilities. 

I will attempt to one up you on cooking the beast in general. Ridley Scott dropped the ball by not following up on Alien in the 80s- Cameron seized the opportunity to progress. RS came along way later and wanted to do prequels. He lamented on how nobody perused the SJ and went from there. 

Thoughts_Dreams 

You bring up many interesting points. 

Unfortunately they have both demystified the SJ and the Xeno in the prequels but that is a risk that they took that did not work out well. Add to this the fact that David created it which makes me think that has made more damage to it then the over-exposure that they did with it before. Especially AC made it worse.

That statement sums it up. There hasn't been any real scare factor since A3 imo. The creatures don't scare anymore. The unseen implications can and do scare and that is the direction things should go if the general franchise wants to keep its horror roots.

The Alien is a movie antagonist, and like all other movie antagonists in horror movie's its goal is to kill. If the Xenomorph is cooked then so too is the genre of horror. As it currently stands Ridley Scott is right, the beast is cooked. But before you call me on "didn't I say Scott was wrong before", let me clarify...

In Alien we had the Xenomorph stalk and kill all but one of the crew. This formula was repeated in Alien 3 and to an extent in Alien: Covenant. Like any experience, the first time is always the best, repetition of the formula has led to a predictable and tired antagonist. James Cameron understands this. The T-1000 is an entirely different beast to the T-800 in the original. Thus when he made Aliens he didn't recycle the formula of the first movie but instead evolved the threat from a singular killer to an overwhelming horde.

As I said the beast is cooked, but only so long as Fox recycle the creature. However, if the creature is evolved in some new, refreshing way that stays true to the core appeal of the franchise then the beast can become relevant and prominent again. Ridley was right, and wrong at the same time.

As for the focus of any future movies let me say this - In a new movie titled after a lead character, we expect to see that character in a leading or pivotal role (Predator, Terminator, Spiderman, Batman, Godzilla). Any movie featuring a lead character in an indirect fashion should not carry their name in the movie's title. In an Alien movie, audiences, both fans and generally, expect at least one Alien, same as with a movie titled Superman audiences expect Superman. The Alien is the prime focus, the anchor of the franchise. If you want to do a movie about Engineers or Colonial Marines or Weyland-Yutani then such movies should be spin-offs of the main franchise and not titled as an 'Alien' movie - Prometheus being a case in point.

I have an extended version of "Aliens", where Newt, her brother and her parents go check the spacecraft we all know from "Alien".

How come Newt's parents found it suitable to go check an alien spacecraft with children on-board in their kind of "urbane" colony vehicle?

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is.

I loved "Alien 3", for it was an atempt by David Fincher to recover the atmosphere on "Alien".

Who hated it and why those hated it so much?

My guess: Cameron's fans, as usual, who want more of the same and won't let it go.

I do respect people who think Cameron is a great director, for everybody has their motives. But my opinion is that he is the worst thing that could ever have happened to the beast we all hate/love.

Nobody miss the Queen Alien Cameron created, for anybody - man or woman or dog - can be a "mother" for the creature, afterall, it is a perfect organism, it does not have to follow the rules as we know them (Mommy+Daddy=Baby).

I hated A3 back in the 90s but it grew on me after repeated viewings and it is rock solid to me now and has aged well- in part possibly due to having no advanced technology on the colony.

Aliens remains solid too but the director's cut with the Hadley Hope part is superior. I will only watch the director's/extended cuts from the Quadrilogy.

There is no reason why someone can't like all of them. I guess it is just a matter of opinion/tastes.

Dk,

When I watch a sequel, or #2, #3, #4 or whatever, I play close attention to what I feel after watching it.

When I watch "Aliens", I miss "Alien" and I dream of "Alien 3".

"Aliens" in my opinion lacks something very, very basic I can't explain - and I blame Cameron for it. He has always been a Disney person and now he's home with his "Avatar" sequels and whatever he's up to.

Can you imagine a Cameron's hypothetical version/sequel of "Thelma and Louise", "Gladiator", "Blade Runner"?

Can you imagine what the "Alien" universe would be like if there hadn't been a Cameron's "Aliens"?

For the better or worse, I can - and I picture it as a far better universe. Maybe the beast would be far more respected/hated/loved now.

I doubt anyone would have picked up the franchise if Cameron didn't first. Remember that in the 80s, at least in the US, action movies- especially military based ones, were huge. Aliens fit the bill and brought back a tense sci fi experience too.

I still want to see Cameron's Deep Sea Challenge movie.

Yes, Cameron can put off a lot of people but I like his cinematic results.

Maybe the beast would be far more respected/hated/loved now. What does that mean?

dk,

I respectfully disagree.

Cameron is, when I think of it, a block buster director who is so lost in his own lack of mind space he insists on the same title on and on again (AVATAR).

I won't say Sir Ridley didn't make mistakes - his "Exodus" was a historic mess. But when it comes to versatility and mindfulness...

When it comes to movie language...

Go check on IMDb.

Pleople here think on Cameron just because of "Aliens", I despise him (as a director) not only because of that.

But now Disney and Avatar Cameron will get it their own way.

Mark my words and see how bitter the end will be for the rest of us far left behind... - and, maybe, just maybe, you'll be among us.

We could all argue both for and against James Cameron and Aliens, but I suspect regardless of what anyone says ScorpioStar's opinion of Cameron will not be changed, no matter what the argument.

But, in a vain attempt I will say this - Cameron gave us the Queen, which has been featured in Alien 3, Resurrection, AVP, AVPR and referenced in Covenant, nevermind its numerous video game and comic book appearances, whereas the adaptive nature of the Xenomorph hinted at in Alien, with the exception of Alien 3's dog/ox-burster was not revisited until Prometheus and Covenant.

Also, for better or for worse because of Aliens, we got Halo and Starship Troopers.

I agree, Gavin

My opinion on James Cameron as a director and "Aliens" as one of his works won't be changed.

I don't actually care about an Alien Queen created by Cameron (too humanized for a perfect organism that could have been conceived as a hermaphrodite and didn't need a subservient court of males around), as much I don't actually care about AVPs and games and the sort.

But the real point is that, no matter what I think, Cameron will win in the end (for he is a big shot at Disney now, with his everlasting/family friendly AVATAR) and his fans will eventually be confronted with his final vision of the Alien with shooting Marines and the whole package they've been dreaming of.

What comes next?

Let's just wait and see - consciousness beats hope every time, for the former knows, the latter is what it is - a dream of an awaken (but not necessarily conscious) man.