Prometheus is dead...long live Prometheus

I always appreciate your input Thoughts_Dreams,Thank you.I do agree the lack of xenomorph isn't a problem for me, same kinda with Covenant I prefer the neomorph over the xenomorph as well.And I'll never understand the fifield swap either.

I enjoy Alien all the way to Covenant and will agree Prometheus and Covenant have the weakests characters in the franchise...

"Petting a space snake, thinking that they would get there before the storm would get them. Shaw holding on to the head instead of thinking about her own life. Holloway taking his helmet off in the what ever the place was. There are other things as well."

These were kind of silly, if you look at it being a rational prepared Scientist... 

The Space Cobra petting, we had Milburn who may have been like a Space Steve Irwin, but when your on a Alien World you would be more Cautious of a Life-Form that NO-ONE has ever encountered.

Its a case that the Drafts have better explanations, such as the Suits are described as being Very Resilient which would have given Milburn bit more of a security blanket if this was explained more on Film... but even still it was not the most sane decision he made, in the Draft it was Fifield who was STONED and he handled the Hammerpede and kind of threw it towards Milburn.

Holloway was a reckless Character a Risk Taker, he always had a hunch the Star Maps lead to some Ancient Race who visited us and so finding the Temple and then detecting the Air was Breathable gave him insight that this place was Habitable like the being inside the Prometheus ship... so he chose to put it to the TEST... Also this was before they realized any outbreak or dead Engineers... but even so you cant account for any Bacteria etc in the Environment and you had to be Questioning WHY these Gods gave us this location and NEVER returned... No One was HOME!

Dr Shaw and the Head was not as bad... the Discovery of this PLACE was the Greatest Discovery of Mankind, we Finally Found other Intelligent Life in the Galaxy, a Race who are connected to our History, but they was ALL GONE... but the Head was well Preserved... this was seen as a VITAL piece of evidence for Dr Shaw to be able to gain some insight into who these would be GODS are.

So in the Heat/Panic of the Moment, she realized the Head was of GREAT Importance to the Discovery of potentially our Ancestors or Creators... a Discovery FAR Greater than her own LIFE.... she was also of Faith and would have comfort that in DEATH there is Resurrection for her.

A lot of it comes down to being able to explain things more in a Book/Draft and things have to be CUT when making a Movie, the same is true with Alien Covenant and how they wandered onto that Planet with NO Helmets...   In the Novel it had Walter go outside and Test the Atmosphere etc and determined it was breathable and NO signs of Pathogens etc.

IF the Drop Ship had some kind of Mask/Backpack Apparatus bit like a DIVERS mask and Oxygen Bottle if we saw these and Oram saying to Walter go outside to test the Atmosphere... then he says its Clear No Need for any Breathing Equipment... then that scene would make better sense.  Or if they sent down a Probe First.. (but that would raise the problem of why not probe the whole area within so far and how would they miss the Dead Engineer City). 

But to have either would have added to more Screen Time and so some things that would make scenes/action seem less dumb, just get left out for pacing.

The Alternative Fifield was better, there was some even better Props worked on and Concepts... that would have made a more clearer connection with the Xenomorph DNA.. again the drafts even showed us that Fifield had ACID BLOOD which would have been another Clue to the Xenomorph Connection.  Ultimately Ridely Scott was happy with Sean Harris Performance in that Scene... also i think the CGI Fifield was not as Polished as would have hoped for.

“If you are someone who saw ALIEN a lot and looked at interviews with RS years prior to Prequels and Concept Work for ALIEN etc... then seeing Prometheus you got more of a connection."

What i meant by this was that Prometheus toned down quite a lot, in terms of DNA of the Xenomorph and ALIEN movie itself.  The clues to the Xenomorph were subtle, the MURAL being something that stood out...  but it was again brief and gave no explanation.   How you connect to what was shown, and being connected to ALIEN depends on HOW MUCH you are aware this was in the Alien Universe and how much you are aware of the ALIEN movie.

If you asked someone these Questions.

Do you know what a Face Hugger is? a Xenomorph?

Do you know what Weyland-Yutani is?

Do you know what the Derelict/Space Jockey are?

How much someone knows about these, for example those who saw the Juggernaught and could connect it to Alien would see a connection, those who had to have it pointed out would not as much and those who would not even be able to picture what a Derelict was, would have NO CLUE.

So it depends how much you know about the Franchise and Understand.... someone who only seen ALIEN 1-2 times, and ALIENS 1-2 times and went into watching Prometheus with NO knowledge it was a Alien Franchise movie... they would not have much of a idea that its even in the same Franchise.

Those who are aware of the Connection or even just more aware of the Franchise, would see some Connections... the Juggernaught/Engineer Suits and Derelict/Space Jockey, the Mural, the Deacon Chest Buster.... and the Weyland Company... But for many of these fans the Clues never really EXPLAIN the connection deep enough..

Even without investing into the Extras and Interviews and Concepts and Drafts..... if someone who was a ALIEN fan watched Prometheus, then watched Alien again and then Watched Prometheus again... it would become more apparent.

I agree the Destruction of the Engineers was harsh, but we dont have any LIVING Egyptian Pharaohs but we can understand about them from whats left behind...  But it is a shame we never got much of this from the Engineers and it would have been interesting to see more about them.

The Problem comes from the SET UP..

We Discover these beings played a role in our Creation, then they intended to Destroy us... we have to ASK... would they be Welcome Open Arms when David and Shaw turned up?

This would depend on IF the World they arrived at those beings had the same outlook as those on LV-223 in regards to wanted us DEAD..   If they dont want us dead, had no knowledge of our Creation or intended Destruction or did, but become very interested in seeing Dr Shaw and David... it then leaves a PLOT HOLE as to WHY they never came back within the ALIEN Franchise..

A way around this would be they had no knowledge or abandoned us BUT their Home-world is on the other side of the Galaxy and maybe David and Dr Shaw take Hundreds of years to arrive...   The Problem with this is HOW do you introduce Human Characters... as a movie cant HANG on David and Dr Shaw, and some Engineers, even if they discover a way that allows Dr Shaw to understand them.

Paradise being a place that is SOOOOO FAR away that the Human Ships in the Franchise simply cant reach that far, would then limit HOW we get more Humans.. unless Fans could put up with Engineers, a Robot and Dr Shaw (who many was annoyed with).

By Virtue of going a Direct Prequel by having the Events of Alien Covenant predates the Event of ALIEN and by Virtue of the Xenomorph Orgins being explained as Chronologically after Prometheus.  Means the introduction of Humans incoming to Paradise (Covenant Ship) means they would have to make Paradise more closer to Earth.

Which would mean a lot depends on HOW those Engineers React to David and Dr Shaw and Mankind and knowing we can go around the Stars and use their Technology... would they be sitting back waiting for more Humans to Arrive and invite them for a Cup of Tea?

By Virtue of the events having to lead up to Alien, and introducing more Humans from Earth to the Engineers Home-world, really meant Paradise had to be closer, and to deal with any potential Problems as to HOW the Engineers would have Reacted.... it was maybe Necessary to have them KILLED OFF.

Which really limits us to what we can do with the Engineers now... but this is a consequence of having to MAKE the Prequels now literally connect to ALIEN and bring back the Xenomorph.

A think to consider... is it appeared the Engineers were always going to be KILLED by David or Dr Shaw. But we certainly would have discovered more about them with a Prometheus 2.

Ridley Scott confirmed they was off to the Planet of the Engineers to meet these BEINGS who are NOT Gods, (not in the traditional sense).  They are FAR from Benevolent, but David is BRINGING Hell with him... WHAT happens when the Bio-Weapon (Black Goo) infects a God or a Machine?

So ULTIMATELY it seemed that those Engineers were always going to be WIPED out... even as far as the Plans from 2012.

I think in context to Prometheus, and Alien Engineers is ONCE you take away the Xenomorph and Related.... what we are left with is the Mythical, Religious, Theology, Philosophical Elements that are all left very open and interpreted in a number of different ways.

Some may read too much into it Literally as far as Religion and the Soul and After-life... but by Virtue of RS mentioning these things, you cant blame people for thinking about those kinds of avenues.  I feel it was going to be FAR from Dr Shaw meets the Creator of the Engineers who is a Benevolent Spiritual Being and Dr Shaw is reunited with her Mother/Father and meets Space Jesus ;)

I think this takes the Franchise too FAR from ALIEN, and i am sure its not a path many fans would wanted.

I feel those Themes are only there to be considered LOOSELY and only from a Philosophical Element were it seemed RS was more interested in the concept of Creation, Sub-Creation, Knowledge and Miss-use of this and Hubris and Rebellion...   Were we are to discover there is NOTHING Divine or Special about our Creation or Creators.  And things such as Immortality, the Soul and After-Life would be shown more in context of DAVID.

But again i think these are Elements that some Fans are not interested in and would be taking the Franchise a bit away from ALIEN... by Virtue/Curse of making it a ALIEN Prequel, they have limited it and written themselves into a Corner now.

Fans are mainly going to be looking forwards to the Prequels in Context to ARRIVING at that Point the Derelict is LOADED with that Deadly Cargo!  And the Moments that lead up to this EVENT

They would be looking forwards to seeing Humans Pitted Helplessly against and caught in the Middle of a BATTLE between the Engineers and David and his Xenomorphs.. i think Fans would care little about what else David would want to go and Create!

Ive noticed a lot with ALIENS fans and other SITES! that the Majority are wishful that David does-not create the Xenomorphs, and the Engineers Rock up with a Cargo of Eggs and we have the Queen explained for how they came to be!

So the Prometheus Elements discussed at the START of this Post i feel are Greatly going to be Ignored, the 2nd set in context to David i feel would have been explored... which i think a lot of fans are not happy with... and so i cant see them being explored either.
 

So PROMETHEUS is Dead.... its now LONG LIVE Camerons ALIENS and what ever he intends to do with the Franchise.  And looking at his comments regarding the NONE Cameron Terminators... i would not be suprised if he will IGNORE Alien 3 on-wards and even REBOOT the Prequels.

I guess we'll see if and where Cameron takes Alien if he gets his wish. For a fact he'll ignore Alien 3 which he's referred to as a slap to the fans faces comparing to The Temple of Doom and referring to the script as stupid.Sad part is Cameron doesn't realize how popular Alien 3 has become,but if he did I doubt he'd care.Much like Thoughts_Dreams said he just has to have his way.

Ive noticed a lot with ALIENS fans and other SITES! that the Majority are wishful that David does-not create the Xenomorphs, and the Engineers Rock up with a Cargo of Eggs and we have the Queenexplained for how they came to be!

In my mind still David Did NOT create the xenomorph,so I agree with those who might feel that way.

"I learned their ways"-David

Well ALIEN 3 never had any clear vision it went through so many changes, that it has some flaws... You could even argue the same with Alien Covenant... it had a lot of changes forced upon it from the Route that Prometheus 2 was having.

Its a case of IF we see Disney allowing Cameron to have FULL control over the Project.... i think however the Popcorn Elements that Cameron would want to add, are what Disney would want anyway.

Cameron and Weaver are close, and so i FEAR it wont just be a case of removing Alien 3 etc from Canon... i think we would get Camerons ALIENS 2, and then a sequel and another sequel and all be about Ripley, Hicks, and Newt... maybe even Bishop...   There are some interesting ideas from Blomkamps concepts... but i dont think we need to Resurrect Ripley, Hicks and Newt to make the Franchise Good Again!

"In my mind still David Did NOT create the xenomorph,so I agree with those who might feel that way.

"I learned their ways"-David"

The learned their ways, likely has nothing to do with the Xenomorph, some fans even use the Novel and how it states that David told Oram he found the Egg as it was...

Ridley Scott however confirms that David is the Xenomorphs Origins... and it fits with the Philosophical Themes...   Even though its a SLAP to the Face of the Franchise Fans!

I agree a bit about that.... i think ULTIMATELY what they have to do is either!

1) Have Engineers (or their Creators) come along and see Davids Xenomorph, and they take it and EVOLVE it to get to the Classic Xenomorph.

2) Indicate that David's Xenomorph is his Evolution of the Ancient Xenomorph.

@ninXeno426

I have read your thread starter and your remarks about your parents which tie in with Lone's excellent remarks about marketing. This post is a direct response to you.

I represent your parents generation, we were not a new audience we are the original fans of  A L I E N, and we look back on it fondly as a rather superior slasher movie.

I have spoken to people in the UK, Australasia, Canada and on the internet about their reaction to Prometheus and it chimes with your parents views.

As regards the follow up as Damon said, Elizabeth a person of faith, was the proxy for the audiences questions at the end of the film.

My generation loved Elizabeth and her journey through the film and Noomi captured the wide eyed naive wonder through to the knowing warrior perfectly.

What 'we' expected from the follow up was the realisation of an Intelligent Universe hinted at by the magnificent opening scene.

Damon and Ridley discussed at length their vision for the Engineers Home world. It connected to our myths of Paradise but not in a traditional religious sense. Unsurprisingly no one I have spoken to, religious or not, believed we were going to meet a kind benevolent God as expressed by the Abrahamic faiths and certainly not the Son of God. As CLM said faith and science went in search of mankind origins and none of them were correct it was a train wreck.

What is clear from Noomi and Damon is there was never a story merely a destination.

Damon in 2017 remarked as follows.   

"he (Ridley) was interested in this idea of creation and that there were three generations of creation. You have man and his creation, which are the synthetic beings, the androids, the robots, replicants, whatever you wanna call them depending on which Ridley movie you’re in. And then what’s the next level of that, which is who created man? So that search for God as it were to go and ask, ‘Why did you make me and to what end?’"

So Elizabeths question was still alive for the second film "Why did you make us and why did you want to destroy us."

Religion 

I would like to focus on religion because my sense is that most people here think faith equals stupid and their personal antipathy to organised religion affects their ability to look at things objectively regarding spiritual matters. The reality is it was Elizabeths faith kept her going, it was her driver.

During the filming of Prometheus there were three important faith based signposts under consideration.

1) The donation would be promised a return of the soul.   

2) Pietro Scalia indicate that at one stage the Moon was supposed to reflect Paradise Lost. 

3) The alternative ending dialogue had the Engineer referring to a place David called Paradise.

You know the implications of the catastrophe occurring 2,000 years ago.

You I am sure are aware of the constant riffing of Christian symbolism through out the film brilliantly described by the blogger Cavalorn.

To my generation, and possibly your parents, and I repeat the original audience of A L I E N, this was of profound interest because it was a way of recalibrating a religious narrative within an Engineered creation.

However this kind of profoundly interesting line of thinking whilst you can see it expressed in "Seven Worlds" would not sit with the Xenomorph fanboys and their toys and games.

Oddly the non consensual rape and impregnation of a man in the first movie fits beautifully with the notion of an Intelligent Creation gone wrong and that of course is where the story comes from. Engineering is a procedure its unsentimental and requires the rules of mechanical creation to be adhered to. Thats true in the real world and this imagined one. If you do not stick to the rules things happen and they can be very ugly.

If you then place David the mechanical sub created construct and Elizabeth the biological sub created construct in the "Seven Worlds" environment you can then tell a story.

I do not like repetition where people make the same point over and over again or "thinking aloud" but I will permit myself one repetition which I trust you will bear with, you need a story and then you need characters and then you can tell people about your sub created world. The professionals tasked with finding that story from 2012 to 2015 could not find the story which would answer two simple questions posed by Prometheus and reflect the sub created Engineers Home world.

1) Why did you create and want to destroy us.

2) Why was the catastrophe of the two moons left unattended for 2,000 years.      

It sounds and probably is self important to say I have broken my vow to stop posting but I thought your very down to earth mention of your parents reaction a simple and well made point was worth responding to.

The various people I talk to about Prometheus have been to the cinema to see Green Book, Colette and Its a matter of sex. I can find no evidence they are playing games on computers with scenarios of Ripley verse The Creature. I say that to show how disengaged my grouping who wanted Prometheus 2 is from the core fan segment who want dark corridors, dripping water and somebody called Ripley or "Another glorious day in the corps." Am I allowed, without being rude, to say how desperately anchored, how artistically bankrupt such thinking is ?  

Certainly Michelle...

Prometheus did set-up something different to expand upon, and like i have said quite a lot on here over the years, a Prequel that is just to show the Egg Cargo Origins and Space Jockey Event  is something that ONCE you have shown this, its WHAT NEXT?

This is where the whole Creation Plot comes in, and so certainly they was having Problems on WHERE to take the Story Next, Between 2012-2015 and you can see what problems this caused because the OPTIONS for how you should/could cover what happens next, while considering what then happens in a Prometheus 3, is something thats very hard to come to a SOLUTION.

With such a Bold Plot, and Massive Scope and Questions, its a bit of a Poisoned Chalice, something i struggled to come up with when thinking HOW do i tackle the same subject, i had many ideas for this and that, but could not concentrate on just a set that would not conflict other ideas i had.

Certainly is more easier to write a PLOT like Alien Covenant, the problem again with a sequel to that is RS has made comments that open up a Interesting Plot, that once again is going to be difficult to pull off....

Were as a David Creates Eggs from Human Embryos, and uses Colonists as HOSTS and then waits for the Engineers and Weyland-Yutani to turn up... This more ALIENY Plot is more easier to cover....

Thats the Problem when you try and come up with a real THOUGHT PROVOKING Movie like Ridley Scott had intended.

The WHY we was created, is a Question i dont think we will get answers for now...  This was a Question that has many options as far as how to tackle it.....  You have the Creation by a Divine Being as a Favored Beloved Creation. Much like you would for the Birth of your Children....  On the Flip-side you have it as David pointed out to Holloway when he Mocked David and claimed he was created because WE COULD.... and so David throws back the Question of WHAT IF he found out OUR Creator, did the same with us.  Because they Could!

Whats interesting is all that GREY area between both  those Answers..

There are various reasons for Creation, if we cover Science, Mythos, Religion, and the Chariots of the Gods type Theory.  I was always drawn to maybe the Answer could be more closely linked to WHY was David Created. Which has Multiple Reasons for WHY but certainly is not as Basic as because we COULD.

Once you have figured out the WHY you would Create, it makes the WHY you would destroy part more easy.

Ridley Scott had thought about the Space Jesus but he felt it was too much on the nose, (i am not sure he was ever going to introduce a Literal Jesus).  But he said you need to look at HOW we (Mankind) was behaving back at the time of the Roman Empire, certainly how Mankind behaved,  viewed our Gods/Creators and the things we was doing are NOT how our Creators would have intended.

Ridley Scott in 2017 had gave another Reason for WHY the Engineers would create Bio-Weapons and he claimed it was to PROTECT themselves.

I think it makes a bit more sense when we look at DAVID..  when you see what he has become, imagine Thousands of Davids....   Androids who have Rebelled against their Purpose (they are not happy to make us Cups of Tea no more).   The THREAT of Thousands of Androids with the same outlook on Mankind, and interest in their own Ambition/Life as David would be a Great Threat, more so if they could start to Create too... be that increase their numbers.

You would see these Androids Created to Serve, and Not Question us (like Walter) that are not Behaving as Intended, they are out of Control..... and its THEN when we would look back in Hindsight and think... we should NEVER had created them... or granted them so much Knowledge/Free-will and then you would be left with NO option but to Destroy your Creation.

I ponder if this Scenario is at play on Multiple Layers... and so as i described with David, is whats going on between Engineers and Humans, and indeed Engineers and their Creators or other Sub-Creations..

The same thing as discussed with WHY we was created, is also applicable with PARADISE... people think of Paradise, they may think its place that our SOULS go to... Heaven if you would....  But maybe it would have been revealed as just a Rock these Engineers came from and thats that... so NOT a Paradise as in how many Mythos/Religion have it..

But again there is not just ONE explanation for what Paradise is, and again i Ponder that they would have been exploring the various reasons for Paradise and trying to come up with some Amalgamation of various meanings of Paradise.   Before Alien Covenant i had looked at it from the Biblical Context mainly... but not as in a Heaven... but the Origin of Creation (Garden of Eden) and when i look at Planet 4, to me this fits very much with that interpretation.  Where we can then throw in a few other meanings but not too Literal...

Sorry for the big post....

I think it does show that there was so much that Prometheus allowed to expand on, and these things, plus the David AI arc are barely scratching the Surface of what Prometheus Foundations had laid down.

Earth the only place these beings Created Life? Planet 4, and LV-223 (Zeta 2 System) the only place our Engineers have ventured?   So the scope for Many Many Worlds, Many Many races was their to EXPAND on the Franchise...

But FOX felt all of this was a distraction and Fans wanted Xenomorphs.... which again... the Scope is that as a Consequence or Intended Result from the Creation Tool and Experiments.... then LV-223 could Spawn many more Horrors than just Xenomorphs.

"The reality is it was Elizabeths faith kept her going, it was her driver."

Absolutely and you could interpret that David viewed how her Faith was something that kept her going on, in-spite of all the Revelations.  Something that has crafted her Strong Will, and also guided her Kindness.  Certainly Aspects that it appeared David admired.

Left something interesting as far as David goes, he could have looked at Dr Shaws Resolve through her Faith, and gone on some kind of Spiritual Journey/Soul Searching for himself.  You could even ponder IF and WHEN she got her Answers and they Shattered her FAITH!  What would this do to her?  Break Her! then what does she become?

Which is where a David could comfort her, and show her he has learned from her Faith, that it gave her Strength and Resolve, and Kindness and a Good Soul and in-spite of Discovering say there is NO Soul,  there is NO God of her Faith, she is broken.... David could relayed to her that while her Faith made her who she is... that Discovering her Faith is a Sham of sorts... should not change the SOUL she has.  So he could have dragged her from the Brink of the Abyss into Darkness (Dark Soul).

I discussed on here years ago such a thing... and that Dr Shaw had NOTHING... but her Faith and her Desire to get her Answers, then when her Faith is Broken because of these Answers... when they arrive at Paradise..  What does she have then?

David for Companionship...?  This is where i discussed this next part a number of times.... Dr Shaw could not CREATE!

If she could have had Children or had them, would she had wanted David to take her HOME? So as i discussed on here years ago before AC, when Dr Shaw's Discovery on Paradise Shatters her Faith!  Maybe After She or David then Washes Away those Evil SOB's that inhabit Paradise.

What if David could offer her a chance to CREATE Life... to start a New Eden from the Ashes of the Fallen Eden?

This could have been interesting.....

And indeed years after i discussed such things, we do have David in Alien Covenant (or the Advent)  mention that he offered Dr Shaw the chance to Create a New Eden but she Rejected it!

I am drawn to maybe this is what Guides RS with what he intended next, in what kind of World David would create... which is not going to just be some Xenomorph Factory!

The Application of the Creation Tool, does open the possibility for Genetic Manipulation.... which is why i think those Embryos (Human) would be playing a Key Role if Ridley Scott could have finished his sequel.  

We could also consider Resurrection of Dr Shaw... if David has some DNA, he could Clone Dr Shaw... maybe he could upload some of her Memories to this New Being, in a effort to Resurrect her...

Matt Hatton and Dane Hallet, had pondered/teased that David could have Cloned her over and over to perform all those Experiments, that was depicted in those drawings... they also said or he could have Resurrected her over and over... but then they said or this could have all just been the Twisted Thoughts and Dreams of the Demented Android.

So using her DNA/Genome to Map/Change those of some of the Human Embryos is something they could have explored in Alien Covenants sequel..

Its entirely possible that David could have IF she was willing, he could have granted her the gift of Child Birth. When the Leaked Set Photos of his Lab came out before AC hit the Box Office, i was drawn to the tiny Humanoid Skulls and discussed/made note on here that these are HUMAN baby Skulls.... which got me thinking maybe indeed David had allowed Dr Shaw to bare Children...

At this Period in time we had no Trailers/Scenes that showed Engineers, and so at this time, we never knew they had Females....  The release of AC showed they had Female Engineers and this was likely (latter confirmed) where those Baby Skulls came from....

So this means there would be Engineer DNA or even Sperm... that David could have obtained and Engineered with the Black Goo to allow Dr Shaw to give birth.

Thats why i am pretty sure in the Sequel to AC, Ridley Scott was intending to have David Create a Paradise/Eden that he wanted to do with Dr Shaw... and by that he would be looking to Engineer a Superior Humanoid than Mankind.

@ninXeno426

I do apologise there were two other pertinent things which I wanted to add to my reply.

Ridley made it clear that the connection with mankind's origins was linked to the theft of technology. The question then arises who was the theft from, another set up gone missing and one that is an obvious point from which to begin to construct a continuation and one that would bleed into why the two Moons are simply abandoned. 

Relooking at seven worlds, which offers a kind of cinematic impressionism of the Prometheus story, it makes "The Crossing" look more and more like a comment that Ridley wanted to make rather than join Prometheus to Covenant. It was certainly an extension of the Prometheus narrative but did not thread with Covenant at all. I might add, to contradict a view that circulates, that the script for Covenant that was green lit had no Shaw at all. The Crossing was added quiet late in the filming process and whilst there are echoes of earlier drafts with her in, the sentiment expressed in the short and the interaction between Noomi and Michael is quiet different.  

@BigDave

Your posts are noted. 

Big Dave I do Agree David's comments about learning there ways does likely have nothing to do with the xenomorph, but it is an interesting approach. David spent and undisclosed amount of time on the Juggernaut which carried a massive payload of black goo.I know Ridley had given his own reason what this meant, but since it was never explicitly detailed I think it's open for interpretation.

@ninXeno426

Certainly its a bit open to debate and subject to change regarding the Xenomorph Origins... this in part is thanks to the Ambiguity of Prometheus, and the Alien Covenant Novel which by its own admission claims David found the Egg as it WHERE....   Also if you look at the various Drawings by David, there is a Classic Face Hugger, Xenomorph and most Notable is the Classic Chest Buster.

The only problem if this work by David is taken as Canon which it is intended, is we could use this as evidence that David came across a Traditional Xenomorph Egg and used it on a Engineer Female which some could conclude this is PROOF the Xenomorph Original is not a Creation by David.  This however would raise a Problem of us asking WHY would David bother with all those Experiments to incorporate various traits of various Organisms, using the Black Goo and Deacon DNA and that of the Neomorph. to lets ASSUME reach his Xenomorph in Alien Covenant... when  he already had a Good Starting point with the Eggs he Discovered?

Bit pointless and shows David to not be quite as Smart as we think.... the only Logical Explanation if we ASSUME that David had discovered a Xenomorph Egg would be that he tried to Create Something using the Black Goo and Various Life-forms Traits and Neomorph... but he was not 100% Happy, and so he decided to take the Xenomorph Eggs he found and Cross-Hybrid those with his From Scratch Attempts to give us Davids Xenomorph.

If we ASSUME that there was NO Xenomorph Eggs on Planet 4, then the Logical Explanation becomes that Davids First Attempts were similar to the Original Xenomorph as in Chest Busters, and he had FURTHER Evolved them to the One in Alien Covenant... and at some point the previous versions by David are the ones that end up on the Derelict.

If we go by the Eggs were already on Planet 4 then we have to ask WHY did the Engineers keep them there? Especially when David said they turned their backs on what they had been up to...tried to Banish the Wolf! (this depends if we assume that means Xenomorph or related Experiments).

But indeed regarding that David Learned the Engineers WAYS... its quite open but likely have to be some reason that from these WAYS he determined they had to be Destroyed and so its likely these WAYS would be regarding the LV-223 Experiments and their Intentions for them. (Biological Warfare.)

David does indicate he Created all those Experiments on Planet 4, but then the Novel indicated he Did-Not Create them all.

Ridley Scott states that David has indeed Created the Xenomorphs, but as this is NOT on Film its subject to Change, because prior to Alien Covenant... Ridley Scott had indicated that the Xenomorph is something that Evolved from those Experiments/Outbreak on LV-223 Thousands of Years ago..  Prometheus even had clues.. but they was never SPOON FED and open to interpretation/vague.

I would say that we need to look at one of the MAIN themes of the Prequels... which is Sub-Creation and Pursuit of Perfection.

So its very fitting if David goes on to Create his own Perfected Humanoids, that make his superior to the Engineers versions (Mankind/LV-223 Engineers) and so its also then fitting if David either Created his More Perfect Xenomorph.... OR... have the Engineers or their Creators take Davids Xenomorph and EVOLVE it.

They could even had gone the Curve-ball that Davids Creations (Humanoids) go on to Perfect the Xenomorph, but this would again NOT please many fans.. who would always see the Xenomorph as a Ancient Organism and for some even something the Engineers/Space Jockey are not responsible.

With how the Franchise is in LIMBO regarding the Xenomorph Origins which the U-Turn for Alien Covenant was intended to SET-UP and eventually explain...  its a case of IF/WHEN we will ever get the Definite Answer to the Xenomorphs Origins.

I have upcoming Two Topics based on the Xenomorph Origin and also Davids Creations..

I actually think it's an interesting Angle that David isn't as smart as we or he thinks he is.In Covenants prologue Peter Wetland dismissed his rendition Of Wagner's "The entry of the gods into Valhalla" as being "anemic with out the orchestra" and later on Walter corrects David that is was Shelly NOT Byron.David through out the film is shown to be imperfect, I felt it was natural that he might attempt to recreate the xenomorph only to fall short with the "protomorph" falling short of being the perfect organism.

A bit off topic lol.As for Scott saying David created the xenomorph, it's comparable to him saying Rick Deckard is a replicant all the while Harrison Ford and Hampton Rancher say Deckard is not a Replicant. But both John Logan and Dante Harper back Ridley up on this, So as far as Covenant is concerned... David created the xenomorph.

Certainly David had made a few errors of Judgement, i just feel that IF he already had those Eggs on Planet 4, he would have turned to Re-Engineering them, and not as it seemed indicated, taking the Neomorph Spores and Black Goo and Cross-Hybrid these with traits of Various Life on the Planet to Create the Xenomorph.

Regarding any 100% Proof, unless anything is shown Theatrically with No Question to its explanation, then its open for debate and change... Much like the EGG MORPH... it never appeared in any of the Movies apart from Alien DC and for all intensive purposes unless any future movie shows us a EGG MORPH then it CAN-NOT be considered as 100% Existed.

So what i am saying is this leaves it open to change the Xenomorphs Origins, its as i said before.. what Ridley Scott says which is intended to be the 100% Truth is always Subject to Change unless its been shown Concrete in the Theatrical or Home Video release of the Movie, so its as a example RS had mentioned the Space Jockey Event was Thousands of years ago, going further to say it was within a FEW Hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak which gives us a 1800-2200 years ago Ball Park.  But Alien Covenants Plot would contradict this comment by Ridley Scott.. so by the same token, the David Created it Arc could be CHANGED.

The movie does-not suggest David Discovered the Eggs, which kind of helps to avoid WHY the Engineers would keep them and WHY in that Complex/Cathedral...  But some of his comments in the Advent could indicate this place was used for Sacrificial Rituals.   By Virtue of him saying the Engineers knew they had to give LIFE to both the Wolf and the Lamb and when he said he has Found his Wolf... we can assume thats his Xenomorph, and so the Engineers had their own prior (but could mean the Black Goo experiments on LV-223).

I actually think in HINDSIGHT they should never had even gone the Direct Prequel route...  you never had to do this to introduce the Xenomorph, and especially HOW the Eggs got on a Derelict, you only needed some clues to show the Engineers more concretely had storage of Eggs from thousands of years ago..

A lot of Fans are upset with the David Creator Plot, and the Dr Shaw not having much to do with the movie but to a lot to do with Davids Creation...   But the Source i had from Feb 2015 (which was taken from a October 2014 draft) claimed that there would be TWO Xenomorph related Monsters, and ONE is something David had Re-Created. and they indicated Dr Shaws role was Small but Vital to that Creation.

IF this source was correct though, they descriptions they gave for the TWO Monsters are different to the Xenomorph.  They broke down full details of each, but in a Cryptic Manner such as ONE was Pale and Transparent to a degree, and ONE had Kind of  Eyes the other None, ONE had the Dorsal Tubes, the other just Spines/Spikes.  They gave few more details like that but never said it like "one had no eyes, Dorsal Tubes but is Pale in Color etc"

The Main thing they said was that ONE was based on the Necronom IV and Ultramorph Concepts and the other was based off the Original Concept but a Fresher Take on it... now the Original Concept was based off Necronom IV, and they said they was NOT Xenomorphs but similar, so the other could not be based of HR Gigers Xenomorph Concepts either.  

Sorry this gone bit off Topic... but assuming the Source was correct, then it showed even as far back as 2014 they had intended to have David conduct Experiments to Re-Create IT... the IT being a Deacon/Xenomorph but by the descriptions he would have created something SIMILAR. but NOT the Original Xenomorph.

If this is TRUE then it would seem they carried over a similar PLOT.. but then RS came up with the Curve-Ball.. "you know what... lets not have David Re-Create his own version, lets have him be the Creator of the Original"

But if we assume David was Originally just going to Create his OWN version of it, then this is something they could still show us that he has done.

BD:

“So in the Heat/Panic of the Moment, she realized the Head was of GREAT Importance to the Discovery of potentially our Ancestors or Creators...”

I understand that but that doesn’t justify almost killing herself. If I as in the situation I would say F the head and try to save myself. Sure I would be sad to loose the head but you got to be smart.

“A lot of it comes down to being able to explain things more in a Book/Draft and things have to be CUT when making a Movie”

Well then either have it explained or cut it out, otherwise it will just look silly.

“(but that would raise the problem of why not probe the whole area within so far and how would they miss the Dead Engineer City).”

No technology is perfect so there could be a way to explain that. Technology is made by humans, humans have flaws so there will be a risk that even the most foolproof technology might have problems.

“But to have either would have added to more Screen Time and so some things that would make scenes/action seem less dumb, just get left out for pacing.”

Yeah but then if the thing seems stupid then leaving things out for pacing is not a smart choice. I would rather have a movie that is a little longer that is smart instead of one that is shorter and makes you go “huh?”.

“Ultimately Ridely Scott was happy with Sean Harris Performance in that Scene... also i think the CGI Fifield was not as Polished as would have hoped for.”

He is not a story guy, he is a director, and besides he says that the Xeno is done so he should not have any input story wise, otherwise we will get shitty things. The Zombie Fifield is just a thing that might get there when he tries to interfere with the story. Sorry but the Zombie thing is still disappointing, to say the least. Sure the Xeno Fifield could have been better (it was not as polished as you said) but it was a lot better than the Zombie. When I see the Xeno one I am like “shit! That is great!”, when I see the Zombie afterwards I am like “well that is a disappointment *sigh*”.

“A way around this would be they had no knowledge or abandoned us BUT their Home-world is on the other side of the Galaxy and maybe David and Dr Shaw take Hundreds of years to arrive... The Problem with this is HOW do you introduce Human Characters... as a movie cant HANG on David and Dr Shaw, and some Engineers, even if they discover a way that allows Dr Shaw to understand them.”

I see your point but there could be a way. Eventually they could have changed the ending of Prometheus that could have left David and Shaw (better written) in while getting better written human characters also and they go on a mission to discover more about the Engineers, something similar.

“.. unless Fans could put up with Engineers, a Robot and Dr Shaw (who many was annoyed with)”

The Engineers could have been better written and kept that mystery (which was there in the franchise since day one like the Derelict). David could have been more like he was in Prometheus, which is that he was less sadistic/not as evil. Shaw could have been better written, like she was in the end. New human characters could have been introduced by a better writer. If this would have been the case we might have been given a better movie.

Yup, the Xeno connection was too loose in Prometheus, which was a shame.
“So ULTIMATELY it seemed that those Engineers were always going to be WIPED out... even as far as the Plans from 2012.”

Sure but they could have been in the movie for a far longer time than what it became.

“By Virtue of the events having to lead up to Alien, and introducing more Humans from Earth to the Engineers Home-world, really meant Paradise had to be closer, and to deal with any potential Problems as to HOW the Engineers would have Reacted.... it was maybe Necessary to have them KILLED OFF. “

I am not sure if I agree with this, I think that there could have been a way to make it work. I am not sure how but to me the Engineers are more interesting than a mad robot. As far as the distance to Paradise and how to make space travel and that, well this is science fiction so there could probably be a way to figure it out. Don’t ask me about details because I don’t know, but there might be a way.

“I feel those Themes are only there to be considered LOOSELY and only from a Philosophical Element were it seemed RS was more interested in the concept of Creation, Sub-Creation, Knowledge and Miss-use of this and Hubris and Rebellion... Were we are to discover there is NOTHING Divine or Special about our Creation or Creators. And things such as Immortality, the Soul and After-Life would be shown more in context of DAVID.”

Scott might be interested in it but what we see is a story about David, which is a story that I don’t care about. I would rather have it about humans, the monsters, and the Engineers. I am done with the David story but I would like to see more of the Engineers.

“They would be looking forwards to seeing Humans Pitted Helplessly against and caught in the Middle of a BATTLE between the Engineers and David and his Xenomorphs.. i think Fans would care little about what else David would want to go and Create!”

I would rather have that than what Scott did with AC if the next movie would mean more androids.

“Ive noticed a lot with ALIENS fans and other SITES! that the Majority are wishful that David does-not create the Xenomorphs, and the Engineers Rock up with a Cargo of Eggs and we have the Queen explained for how they came to be!”

He could create his own version that he does in the ADF novel but to have him responsible for the original is lame. I would think that it would be interesting if we see the Engineers taking off with the cargo if eggs in the end which would point to the Derelict. This could be interesting but I guess that Scott has other things in mind, that are probably worse. I am not very interested in the queen because she has been done a lot of times, egg-morphing and other versions of the Xeno monster is more interesting to me. At least Alien Covenant gave us the spores, they are more interesting since they show what the goo can do. The queen has been featured a lot of times so I am not very interested in seeing another version.

“So PROMETHEUS is Dead.... its now LONG LIVE Camerons ALIENS and what ever he intends to do with the Franchise.  And looking at his comments regarding the NONE Cameron Terminators... i would not be suprised if he will IGNORE Alien 3 on-wards and even REBOOT the Prequels.”

Cameron can say whatever, he is only interested in his thing and since he will retcon Alien 3 I will not pay to see his version. His version would not exist in my canon, that could be like separate route at best but I would not like to see that either (not a single fuck given, which means that I will not watch it). It is a difficult time being an Alien fan (I like the first three movies).

“Ridley Scott however confirms that David is the Xenomorphs Origins... and it fits with the Philosophical Themes...   Even though its a SLAP to the Face of the Franchise Fans!”

I will not accept that, it is stupid makes it too close to humans and makes the franchise based on a mad robot. This is so dumb so I do not have words for it. This is why he should not have anything to do with the script. I would not mind of David’s version is one in a long line to get the ultimate weapon but I refuse to accept that his version is the one on the Derelict.

“With how the Franchise is in LIMBO regarding the Xenomorph Origins which the U-Turn for Alien Covenant was intended to SET-UP and eventually explain...  its a case of IF/WHEN we will ever get the Definite Answer to the Xenomorphs Origins.”

That is what you get when you have a director who is trying to affect the story but who is not a writer.

Certainly Thoughts_Dreams

I agree that a little more thought would help with some scenes, i gave some explanations to WHY we kind of ended up with what we had, and Totally agree some things that was in draft/novel to explain some silly scenes SHOULD have been added... My attempts to offer Alternative Scenes that made more sense would ALSO had likely been thrown out because it would have made Scenes a bit too long...

I can understand that Dr Shaw should have valued her Life more than the Head, but sometimes people do make Rash Decisions for things that are Ultimately on a Personal Level not as Important than you own LIFE...   some people would risk their Lives to save a Baby thats NOT even theres... some would maybe not... for Dr Shaw all she had was her Faith and Work (and Holloway) and if she had a Great Deal of Faith in her GOD, she would maybe be more willing to take Risks knowing that Death would only lead her to Paradise...  

But indeed it was not the most Rational Choice she made, but sometimes people can do such things.

Regarding Fifield.. i agree this was not the best version, and its a shame we never got more Time/Money spent on giving us a better version or Polish up the CGI one  a bit more.  I for one was not a Fan of Toxic Avenger Fifield ;)

Regarding the Engineers, i also feel we should have seen more of them, and while it may have indicated a Prometheus 2 may have seen them or most of them KILLED off i would like to think a Prometheus 2 would not have done so in the same Fashion as we saw in Alien Covenant and even if it did... i am sure we would have had a few Survivors who we could have learned more from...  Alien Covenant was kind of a After-Math to what a Prometheus 2 may have been.   Also as i have said a number of times they could have had Dr Shaw and David go to a place FAR FAR away... and still have Human Characters by virtue of us asking.... is EARTH the only place where Humans are in the Galaxy, could the Engineers have many Human Settlements?

This certainly would have meant No-Need to bring Paradise right on the Door Steps of LV-223/426.  So indeed a bit more thinking by those working on the Sequel could have gave us some other Humans.

"I would rather have that than what Scott did with AC if the next movie would mean more androids."

I can certainly see that Problem, i feel it would concentrate on David quite a lot, which is not to most peoples cup of tea.. the AI aspect however i feel does not mean its about DAVID because its about AI, or other Robots... the AI aspect would simply be regarding a Artificial Creation... which again would be about David having a Big Part in said Artificial Creation and by that i think the AI Creation would be David Re-Engineering/Evolving those Human Embryos...

To a Degree in context of Prometheus/Alien Covenant, Mankind is maybe also a AI unless the Creation from the Sacrificed Engineer is anything Natural?  Even the Biblical Creation of Adam is a indication of Artificial Creation to a degree.

While a AI Creation as such could be interesting, i feel that its a bit of a DISTRACTION from what fans expect from a ALIEN movie, and ONE that is to connect to ALIEN... but i think the Big Problem for many is that having explore Humans being Engineered is ONE THING... but having David being the Puppet Master in it all will not sit to well with many.  So i agree most fans would not like the Focus on David.

Regarding the XENOMORPH... i understand it fits with the Philosophical Themes... but i think its a mistake... having him PERFECT his own version is more fitting, or have the Engineers shown as taking Davids Xenomorph and Perfecting it.

Anyone thinking or wishing those Eggs on the Derelict are something the Engineers Created or Came Across Thousands of Years ago... seems a bit WISHFUL at the moment...

But things can Change...

I agree the David is the SOLE Creator of the Xenomorph is not the right route to take the Franchise.

The various people I talk to about Prometheus have been to the cinema to see Green Book, Colette and Its a matter of sex. I can find no evidence they are playing games on computers with scenarios of Ripley verse The Creature. I say that to show how disengaged my grouping who wanted Prometheus 2 is from the core fan segment who want dark corridors, dripping water and somebody called Ripley or "Another glorious day in the corps." Am I allowed, without being rude, to say how desperately anchored, how artistically bankrupt such thinking is ?  

This I a fare assessment, But it's all a matter of personal opinion.For Example my Mother,much like me,her favorite film is Aliens. She did not care much for Prometheus. She's 52 now, she initially rejoiced when Neill Blomkamps Alien 5 was announced because she was excited about the prospect of seeing Ripley again. Similar with my father who is 57,I never really knew his opinion of Prometheus, but I am aware he enjoyed Covenant for being an Alien film.

Opinions on Prometheus as well as Covenant differ from Alien community to community. I see Those that love Prometheus and condemn Covenant and Vice versa.Some love both,some hate both.As I've said I enjoyed Prometheus for being different, and Covenant for being Alien. To be fair and honest I will say I was initially disappointed with Covenant when I saw it in its opening weekend.It wasn't until my second viewing on DVD that I appreciated Covenant for what it was instead of condemning it for what it wasn't.

The point of this topic is to show that thanks to mtments in the Alien saga such as the Amanda Ripley campaign consisting of the Mobile Game Alien Blackout,Aliens Resistance and the upcoming Aliens Rescue,an Alien Isolation digital series courtesy of IGN,and an upcoming Alien Isolation novelization. That and the possibility of Alien 5 being resuscitated,it feels as if the powers that be at 21st Century Fox are putting Prometheus, as well as David 8 and Elizabeth Shaw in there rear view mirror,and putting  focus on the name Ripley,which is more loved and fondly remembered than anything Prometheus related.For better,or for worse.

Certainly share your Concerns....

The Franchise is more than Ripley, Eggs, Face Huggers, and Xenomorphs/Queens..  While these still make money and interest, its a case of ONCE you have gone over and over these Tropes, its then WHATS NEXT?

To Continue this way, things could get stale especially with a few STINKERS!

AVP was a decent Popcorn Flick, it may have given a conflicting history on Weyland, the Xenomorph and how little was known about it in ALIEN.. but it was a decent stand alone Popcorn Flick!

A continuation could have worked... if it was done RIGHT! but as AVPR showed... this is how a continuation can SUCK! If they MILKED the Ripley and Queens, and we got another 3-4 movies, it only takes 1-2 of them to be DUDS and it could discredit the ENTIRE Franchise!

Sadly the Franchise of ALIEN and Predator are both in a bit of a Problem Area at the moment....

And i am not sure doing a Cameron's Plans for TERMINATOR with the ALIEN Franchise would be the way to go, because once we start to DISCOUNT the Stinkers and Start Again.. its where do we STOP?

How many times can the Terminator Franchise just keep Rebooting and giving us Arnie T-800's and having Sarah and John Connors...  eventually we would have to ask, do we use the Original Terminator 2 cast?  Or how long before we have Movie after Movie with different people being cast as the Main Characters?

Sometimes you can expand the Franchises, but introduce NEW Stories and Characters... or have a way to PASS the Torch on to a New Character who will then take over, while other Characters are removed...  The NEW Star Wars Trilogy was doing this... but even this sometimes does-not work.

But i think the main FLAW was just Rian Johnson but the ALIEN Franchise only needs another Stinker to make it hard to recover from... to a degree Alien Covenant was viewed as such, and hence maybe the Reluctance to even go back to the Prequels.

If a ALIEN 5 comes out and performs/disappoints like The Predator for example... then we have to ASK.. where do we go then?

The same would HOLD TRUE for Star Wars EP9 and Camerons New Terminator Flick... if they disappoint/do bad, then those Franchises would likely be left ALONE!

But Nostalgia is the Cause of a lot of it.... sometimes its a case of making complete Reboots/Alternatives rather than any continuation (Planet of the Apes, TMNT, Robocop etc) and these can work, but then they can equally not do well.

I would not like to see such a Attempt with the ALIEN Franchise or Predator however..... and i can see that a Blomkamps Alien 5 would be like doing what the HALLOWEEN 2018 Movie attempted.. but even if this works i am not a fan of Ret-con any of the ALIEN or Predator movies.

AVP series apart ;)  I think this needs a REBOOT!

I think the ideas that PROMETHEUS had laid down,  are still interesting and it would be a SHAME to Can them!

Why i think that a NOVEL to cover such things are the way to go... a Series of THREE would do the Trick!

The Alien Covenant Origins was a interesting attempt.. i feel a Novel that would give more Depth to what becomes of Weyland Industries after its CEO and Daughter go AWOL, while touching upon the Conflict between both companies prior.  So yes a Prequel to Alien Covenant Origins Novel, that would also set up as a Prequel to Prometheus could be ONE direction to take a Novel.

A Novel that covers David and Dr Shaw from maybe when Dr Shaw had collected Davids Head/Body, or just from the Expanding Point of the Crossing... until the events of Months, Years prior to the Covenant Mission.

Then Finally a Novel that covers what happens from after Alien Covenant, until say ALIEN or setting up another Movie/Novel that would connect to ALIEN.. so basically a Novel that covers what ever Alien Covenants sequel would have covered..

Leading to what happens next to be covered in a MOVIE, a Comic or Animated Movie/Short...    I feel likewise any Story that covers what happens to LV-223 (unless this would be covered in the series that chronologically has events from Alien Covenant to ALIEN...  would also benefit from a Comic or Animated take on it..  (not inc Fire and Stone as i consider them a Alternative as they connect to the Predator Franchise too).

Basically any potential Popcorn/Action Stories to be covered in a Comic or Animated/Anime form could be the way to go.. and any more Deep, Thought Provoking and Historical Stories that DONT revolve around Xenomorphs should be covered in NOVEL format.

I am sure Fans of the Prometheus/Ridley Scott Concepts wont mind having to Read and then think/imagine how the words/scenes described would appear visually in your head (as books offer).   Leave the Popcorn stuff to Comics/Animated.

I feel these are maybe the BEST way forward at the Moment, as its unlikely we would be seeing a MOVIE apart from a ALIENS Re-hash! AKA Cameron Terminator 6 2019/Blomkamps Alien 5

I would've watched Prometheus regardless because the trailer was just bloody epic.  I regret not putting my cheap attitude through a little trauma by seeing it in the theaters.  I think I've learned my lesson from that.

I didn't know it was a part of the ALIEN franchise until the last scene.  Even after knowing it's a part of ALIEN, I still love it just as much or even more.

I give the movie a 9/10. There are some scenes that I don't like, but I still think that maybe they were done right upon reflection.

It should be a part of the ALIEN franchise in my opinion and I really wouldn't change much. Just a smidge actually.

I LOVE PROMETHEUS!

Back after some time away (like, the immediate months after the released of A:C).

ninXeno426, I just saw the movie, yesterday, all the way through for the first time.  I didn't ever see it in theaters, and when it was on TV I'd catch it at different parts. The lead up to Covenant actually got me interested in it as I'd kind of tuned out of the series after Alien 3 (I saw Resurrection and was deeply disappointed).

Anyway, I think Promethus as an idea works well in the Alien universe.  I'd have much rather the movies in the series would have been prequels than sequels, in fact.  I was always interested in the mysterious origins of these creatures.

I despie Covenant tying Prometheus to Alien more directly, I think Prometheus was a better movie, tonally.  The problem I see with the prequels is that Prometheus was maybe a bit TOO little about Alien, a bit TOO disconnected from the story started in Alien.  And because of that, if you're going to do three-movie prequel, the second was always doomed in that it was going to HAVE to be hamfisted in its execution to get you back to Alien.  I was also super disappointed in the focus on David as a god in Covenant.  It wiped away a lot of Prometheus, and the droids have never been of interest to me in these stories outside of supporting characters.

In short, Prometheus makes the most sense in this franchise, but perhaps the execution shouldn't have been so open-ended and maybe could have been a bit longer.  I feel the first 15-20 minutes of the movie were kind of wasted.  I didn't want nor need every question the movie left open answered, but perhaps a bit more explanation about what had happened on LV-223, more look into the philosophy and motivations of the Engineers, etc. could have been hashed out.  And if not in Prometheus than at least in Covenant, but it didn't happen there, either, because they essentially made David and Walter the center of that movie.  Everything just ended up so disconcordant.  Seeing Prometheus after Covenant brings down my opinion of Covenant even further.  :(

BTW, what even with general detail are we supposed to have guessed happened on LV-223 from the little we get from the holograms?  We are led to assume that the Prometheus crew set-off another mini meltdown by exposing the room with the urns to the atmosphere inside the Engineer base. But I'd assume when the base was up and running you had the occupants going in an out of rooms on an hourly basis.  So what are we supposed to assume set of the emergency that required the Engineers to flee?

"TOO little about Alien, a bit TOO disconnected from the story started in Alien"

That certainly seems to be a Opinion a number have, its certainly ONE of the reasons we got Alien Covenant (to have more Alieny Elements and Origins Answered).

Another point raised is also Valid... Prometheus was a bit too much OPEN ENDED and Ambiguous.

The Intention was to give Subtle Clues that those Engineers and that Place (LV-223) are Connected to ALIEN and the Derelict, these clues were just TOO Faint for most to even see any Real Connection.

The Lack of Xenomorph DNA which was only really shown via the Hammerpedes, the Trilobite/Deacon and shown via the MURAL were all a bit too LOOSE for Fans too, and the only Real Xenomorph like Attack Scenes could be the Hammerpede vs Milburn, and the Trilobite vs Engineer which leads to the Deacon... which some Fans may have been Disappointed we NEVER saw this Organism do anything but SNARL...

Plus where was any Connection to the Eggs/Derelict which some may have Expected!

The Movie Lacked these, and i think those who complained about such, and the Interest from Blomkamps Alien 5 had Forced FOX to conclude they need to give the Origins of the Xenomorph and Introduce the Beast back.

This could have been AVOIDED if they had gone back and Changed Prometheus a little.... Alien Engineers a prior Draft showed us TWO Kinds of Face Hugger and showed us THREE Kinds of Xenomorph well this is what we would have got had this Draft been made into the Movie.

Powers that Be.... had decided maybe we DONT have to give the Answers to ALIEN, maybe we dont need Xenomorphs, maybe their is a Bigger Picture and Avenue to go as far as the Engineers etc.

And they was CORRECT!

However in HINDSIGHT.... they should have used Prometheus as a BRIDGE to ALIEN and to Expand to something NEW, and therefore they should have had LESS Vague Clues, and they should have given us more Xenomorph Related Attacks.... as Toxic Avenger (Zombie) Fifield did-not cut the MUSTARD!

I attempted this with a Re-Write of Prometheus which i had 50% Completed and then LOST...  and i attempted to find the Balance by making Prometheus have about 20% of what Alien Engineers had... as far as Alien Encounters and Clues.

For Example....

Fifield was more Xenomorph Hybrid and eventually was Killed outside and had Acid Blood. (just as he was intended in Alien Engineers).

The Hammerpede had led to a Chest/Back Buster in Milburn the resulting Chest Buster does-not get Far before being Killed, but does Savage Ford's Face First.

The ONE Hammerpede is SHOT and we see inside there are TINY Eggs not too Dissimilar to those in ALIEN but a Little Different.

More Time spent on the Mural/Fresco.

More Time spent on the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods

A Brief shot of what was behind the MURAL Door (more Mural/Frescos, showing a Sacrificial Ritual a Number of Cryo-Pods and a Equal  Number of Smaller Tanks/Containers with Engineer Aesthetic.

Which all should have offered more Clues...

But again this would maybe NOT be ALIENY enough for some Fans, or offer Spoon Fed Clues to the Derelict.

The ONLY real way to had given them this would have been to Introduce More Alieny Scenes... Milburns Chest Buster escapes and Attacks more Crew as a Adult...  Maybe show the Deacon Attack too.  A Alternative Expanded version of my Re-Write was going to do both... VICKERS was not to be Killed by the Juggernaught.

I even Wondered if Vickers should be Killed by the Milburn-Morph and then either Show the Engineer KILL the Milburn-Morph or maybe the Deacon Kills it?

The ONLY other option for more ALIENY Movie would have been instead to make a SEQUEL that goes to LV-223 that is more like Alien Engineers and offers more Clues to what Ridley Scott had said at the Time regarding the DERELICT.

Which was that the Derelict Event had happened within a Few Hundred Years of the LV-223 Outbreak 2000 years ago, the Derelict had left LV-223 but only got as FAR as LV-426 because the Pilot was infected with his Cargo (which had Evolved).

This was Ridley Scotts explanation and Intention, but something he felt that you NEVER had to show, but it is something that PROMETHEUS simply did-not provide enough clues to Conclude this Explanation.

If Prometheus was more ALIENY or it had a Sequel that went to LV-223 that was more ALIENY... then in either case they could have CLOSED THE DOOR to ALIEN and Dr Shaw and David could have gone off on a Odyssey that is NOT connected to ALIEN but could expand on what Prometheus had laid down.

But ALAS..... and we got Alien Covenant.

@ Waltermorph

You may have noticed my observations further up this thread. There is a Ripley/Aliens audience which might feel there is unfinished business which the OP refers to regarding his parents I respect that even if it is a reunion greatest hits tour. But there is a slightly older audience and interesting enough all the feedback from people all over the world chimes with your views. What I found fascinating when I wrote a follow up to Prometheus is people immediately said could you do that for the movie because I didn't get that from the movie. So I did and what is interesting is all the points you made are handled by "Pandora's Urn" which covers the period of the 25th and 26th December 2093. 

There are in retrospect two errors in Prometheus which are Ridleys fault and probably the result of film making  pragmatism.

Lindelof removed the outbreak of Xenomorph's and put Weyland on board the Prometheus and changed the purpose of the mission. What Ridley did not request of him was make the creature connection clear and make the hubristic nature of the mission and in particular David/Sir Peter's relationship clear. As an aside if you have Sir Peter on board you have to do more with Meredith Vickers and you have to make more of his antagonistic knowing support.

This is not fan obsession about size, distance and all the other stuff that is recycled on forums like this it is about story and character. The stuff that makes people watch a movie, play or read a book.  

So when i wrote a treatment of the movie three things happened:-

1) The purpose of the mission and Davids feelings about Weyland were clear from the outset, what he felt when he was woken in Weyland's home is known to the reader.

2) The cause of the disaster is left clearly ambiguous rather than muddled ambiguous. The Janek/Vickers deleted scene and Ridleys "Seven Worlds" commercial provide the answer as of course does the fork in the road sequel but then it is in the movie just observational third person.      

3) The creature in Pandora's Urn is used as a plot device. Can you imagine a hapless victim with a psychopath looking on and the narration offering a hint of what the creature is. Well thats what you get. As an aside the lone craft and its cargo is a plot device in Regained, the sequel to Pandora's Urn and the importance of what we fondly know as the Space Jockey is HUGE. Ridley said in 2012 he was a brother of the Engineers on the Moon whose brother? 

So I agree with you the story could have been imaginative and yet make clear what Kane's child and the derelict meant and I know people would have found that satisfying but the real key is its important, but nothing as important as finding out who the real monster is and why.

That lack of clarity meant we were deflected from the real journey, the answers to Elizabeth Shaw's questions.

Ironically its art reflecting real life or is that the other way round. So if people want dripping water, dark corridors and someone called Ripley I am not surprised, that is all explained by the events of Regained. Remember what Elizabeth said as realisation of the essential truth began to dawn. "What if they are no better than us." What if creatures that pursued sub creation through hideous experiments on themselves using stolen technology to create their own hubristic vision are no better, indeed, but there is a chance of self awareness. "So long as they are no worse" and who said that? That gives the future a chance and after all David was aware of the great achievements of mankind the works of Michelangelo and Pietro della Francesca both of whom provided him with a sign post to his future. He knew were he might go ... given the chance.     

@Michelle

Its nice to see your Labor of Love is coming to Fruition, I am sure they are Certainly a Interesting Read.  I think its interesting that there are people who can see the Potential that the Prequels had opened up, beyond a Franchise that just deals with the Usual Tropes we see from Aliens ==> Resurrection.

I apologize in Advance for what i will reply to you post between Yourself and WalterMorph.  But its just to take a Quick Look at a Interesting Element that would have been Dr Shaw and David and i am sorry if this may seem like a Repeat of something i have said before.

I think there is a Interesting Variation between the Characters, we have Dr Shaw who although a Scientist she is Religious as its what she was brought up on by her Parents and so her Faith is Important to her, she is on a Discovery to see if INDEED the Star Maps would lead her to Our Makers and Hopeful they are closer to her Faith, but what Revelations she had.  Yet she still kept her Faith.

She has NOTHING to loose and wants her Answers, and its a shame that we never saw what Impact those would have had on her.

David is a bit of a Different Kettle of Fish because Alien Covenant gives a slight different indication of his Character, from Prometheus we are drawn to him being a Servant but one that had been Assigned as Weylands Personal Assistant with maybe more Benefits (Freewill) that came with this, we see him look more like a Pinocchio Character, a Boy in Wonder at Life, but also Hurt and Disappointed by his Treatment by other Humans.

He knew he was Superior, but he still seemed to be Hurt by the Notion that he was seen as NOTHING but a Soulless Machine.  It appeared in part that he played the Role of trying to Please his Father but Ultimately knowing his Father is Selfish and Uncaring and that Once his Father is Gone, he can be Free.  He seemed intrigued by the Engineers and Discovering that Mankind's Creators appeared to have Little Care for their Creations too, and seeing the Engineers were MORTAL it must have given him a Great Sense of how Superior he Potentially could be.

So we saw Roots of Discontent for Mankind.... but this is where David and Dr Shaw could have had a interesting Relationship... David was brought up on Science and so does-not share the Faith Views of Dr Shaw, he may have seen Evidence to show that her Faith is a SHAM!

But then he saw the Strength this Faith gave to Dr Shaw and its a shame as she could have HELPED him find his SOUL.  And likewise he could have HELPED her when/if she discovers the Higher Up the Creation Ladder the Less Loving Creation really is. (maybe it would been interesting to Ponder if David and Dr Shaw could have been Better Creators of a New Eden).

With Alien Covenant, David was portrayed more like a Robot who upon Activation KNEW he was Superior and saw in disgust that he is expected to SERVE his Mortal Master and he had Resentment of this, while also some Pity for his Master.

Which was not bad... but i think if you Ignored/Never saw Prometheus and The Crossing then it paints a Limited Picture of David.

Anyway sorry for a Not so Quick Reply...

I just once again thing its Fantastic when people put a lot of Passion into Elements of the Prequels and Characters that are seen as a Distraction from ALIEN Franchise (Queens and Ripley) its nice to see others who see Deeper into what could have been (especially with Engineers and Dr Shaw/David), and Certainly i am sure your Work would make a Very Interesting Read.

"BTW, what even with general detail are we supposed to have guessed happened on LV-223 from the little we get from the holograms?"

I think it was a bit Ambiguous among other things in the Movie, so i would like to touch upon your Last Paragraph.

Certainly you would have to ASK for how long had they Experimented with what they was doing on LV-223 to then LOOSE Control... the Star Maps indicated they had pointed this place out 35000 Years ago, and so was this place used for the Same Purpose for all that TIME?

The Pathogen is some Pretty Destructive Stuff... surely they are AWARE of this, and have Precautions?  Hence its likely the Space Jockey Suits are NOT used so they Can Breath because well we see that Humans Can Breath in the Outpost and so can the Engineers (they even can Breath outside where Mankind would last 2 Minutes).

So its LIKELY the Suits are kind of like Hazmat Suits, they Protect themselves from the Pathogen, but also Protect the Environment to becoming Contaminated so they affect the Pathogen (i think the Human Crew with NO Helmets could have affected the Environment)

The Ampoule Room seemed to be Sterile, it also seemed to show those Urns had remained Unaffected, until the Humans with NO Helmets turned up.  Its like the Environment for some reason Prevented the GOO from being Active!

We see the Engineers attempting to RUN to this Room, even those Dead Body's we saw are all up against a DOOR to that Room.   The Engineer Head was Well Preserved, yet his Body was a Empty Shell (Empty Space Suit) its as if his Body was NO-MORE... broken down.. Gone! We could Ponder if this was similar to what we saw happen with the Sacrificial Engineer?

Dr Shaw made references to a Outbreak like she has seen before (Ebola) and Janek mentioned about having to Destroy a Complex on Earth because some Scientist had Split Something...  I think a lot of the Dialog was there to Provide Clues and sometimes is Overlooked as just their Assumptions.

But then we have the SOUND that Screech, and so this makes some thing they are Running from a Xenomorph/Deacon and we cant rule this out... its maybe a Combination of Infection and running away from something that Resulted from Infection... who knows...

Its just something thats kind of open to interpretation

If we go to the Earlier Draft, Alien Engineers then its more Inferred that there was some Infection that resulted in some Engineers being Chest Busted.  And some other Dead Engineers wounds from the Adult Beasts that came from such Chest Busting.

But i was more drawn to a Outbreak from Prometheus, however when looking at the Neomorph in Alien Covenant then something similar to that could have happened. (by that a Organism Gestated from a Nano Infection and NOT by any Face Hugger).

How did they LOOSE Control?  we have to ask if they had suffered Outbreaks Before, they certainly had Witnessed Creatures like the Xenomorph, Deacon and Neomorph and so they must have had a way to CONTAIN them.

This is one of the MILLION $$$$ Questions...

Maybe we cant rule out Sabotage?

@BigDave

"It's All About Everything."

I took some pleasure from someone on the forum for the first time ever in seven years (that number again) articulating the character momentum built up by David and Elizabeth. In terms of story they were perfectly set up to go on. 

I found myself very nearly rehearsing the arguments about the rule book which knock every post about size, distance and what the internet call the black goo into touch but decided I was being held back from reflecting on the real audacity inherent in the set up. 

If you give yourself permission to admit that some thing went wrong between the Waterfall Incident and the disaster of the Moon and the Lone Craft what you have is a thriving Intelligent Universe the seeding of planets across the galaxy over the Eons and something goes wrong. What results are "dark angels' who we establish in Prometheus, a tale about stolen technology, are mankind's forebears. 

If you sit down and think about the potential of such a story its huge and like the best science fiction the further on you go the further you return. People show silly cartoons of an Engineer on the Cross but what if the unique personality represented something that was neither Engineer or Christ?

Then there is the other strand how does the fall occur what are its origins what does it lead to, how does it result in Juggernauts and the facility on the Moon and the summation of the experiments, the pinnacle the being in the mural, the unholy consequences of all the experiments that had gone before oh and what is Cain's child.      

But there is something else something ever more tantalising what is meant to happen what is the plan what does it look like.

Maybe that will explain why I sometimes display irritation with the tropes but that for me is the real irony the story is in part about a chosen people that could not see what it had, what was on its doorstep. David and Elizabeth were right and in looking at the fall of the people we meet on the Moon we see ourselves.

The other beautifully symmetrical point about David and Elizabeth is, Elizabeth believed in the nativity and David was woken in a room with a beautiful incomplete picture of it. However as I say in Pandora's Urn.   

"There was a Steinway Piano in a prime position and behind the piano on a feature mantelpiece an original of the First Folio of Shakespeare’s complete works.

David knew, like the Painting of the Nativity by Piero della Francesca, which Weyland owned, and the Carlo Bugatti’s Throne Chair that he had been sat in when his memories began, these were merely emblems to Weyland. He was not interested in them as works of art and he certainly could not play a note on the piano."

So who does Weyland refract and the brilliant David who does understand their meaning?