Prometheus is dead...long live Prometheus

Prometheus good because placed in Alien Universe.

The Face of Alien Universe is Xenomorph with a unique shape.

The Alien shape created by H.R. Giger.

Giger is an artist for Jodorovsly's Dune.

Jodorovsly's Dune is the greatest trip movie which was not filmed.

Prometheus is a great trip movie.

So... it's perfect in Alien Universe.

I've always said that Prometheus would have been better received had it not been advertised as an Alien prequel, but a stand alone Sci-fi movie.

From the beginning Ridley stated that it was an original story which branched off from ALIEN & took its own path. Fox seriously screwed up its marketing.

The irony is, that the more time passes & because its themes are now being largely ignored, it will be left on its own. The scope of the story was just too expansive for some.

Well, I'll always regard it as the movie which sewed the seeds for what could have been. I think it's brilliant, because Ridley dared to do something completely different, yet connected recognisable elements from a host of Sci-fi, not only ALIEN. Something pretty bloody incredible actually!

Yes nin, I think more & more people are beginning to catch onto what Prometheus started & the golden nuggets it contains.

I made this reply in the other Topic, but it suits this thread more..  funny i made the reply before seeing this Topic as its a very fitted reply for this thread...

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Lets hope Raised by Wolves is interesting....

And it allows for some Company to BACK our RS in exploring a Sci-Fi movie that would be a Spiritual Successor to Prometheus ;)

Where he can have FREEDOM to show us some Philosophical Creation Movie thats very Space 2001 and HP Lovecraftian with a serving of Blade Runner that Prometheus was intended to be..

Which suffered due to the Shackles of it being a Story set in the ALIEN Universe and connected to the Space Jockey, when it seemed a Distraction from the Xenomorph which many may feel a ALIEN movie should be about.

I cant help but in HINDSIGHT wonder if RS got his Alien Engineers Rejected/Canceled... in favor of FOX going for a ALIEN 5 rather than getting Lindeloff in to make Prometheus Draft...

Then RS pitching his ideas to another Studio who would run with his ideas... only now he has to not have Xenomorph looking connections, or Space Jockey/Derelict looking Creator Race and Technology

Keep the PLOT... but it has NO Space Jockey/Derelict or Xenomorph Aesthetic or NO Weyland/Yutani Company Names.

Then just LAMENT over the Freedom he would have had, in giving us a Project that does-not get retrained by the idea having to connect to ALIEN.

"Prometheus good because placed in Alien Universe."

I have to agree LETO to a degree..

In Hubris the Problem was that Prometheus did-not give Alien Fans enough answers, or any real Alieny Threat, had they incorporated say 20% of the more ALIENY scenes from Alien Engineers....  and LESS ambiguity.

Then those Alien Fans would have had more to please them and some more clues, and seen some more Alieny Attacks rather than Zombie Fifield and Hammerpede. It needed a bit more... and more Xenomorph DNA

They could then CLOSED the Door to ALIEN and been allowed more FREEDOM with Prometheus 2 that would NOT cover the Xenomorphs.  

By Virtue of the Xenomorph Origins being hinted at more, what connection LV-223 and Space Jockey had.  By Virtue of having some Xenomorph like Monster... even if it was more close to the Neomorph.  Then they would have been Pleased more..

Leaving Prometheus 2 more Freedom about the Engineers, but then this sequel would have to have been a bit more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic and more Surreal HP Lovecratian and HR Giger

Then we could have had something SPECIAL..

Ridley's original intention was to move each of his sequels farther away from Alien, but that idea reversed with Covenant.

I think the whole crux of the matter is that Prometheus, though it does have Alien origins, doesn't need to connect directly with ALIEN. It can be it's own entity.

That has proved a stumbling block for many people.

Its a shame i LOST my work on a Prometheus Re-write where i was changing some scenes, adding some scenes, that would have been less ambiguous... it still may not have pleased Hard Core Aliens Fans as there was NO Xenomorphs.

But WE did see a more Alieny Fifield, we saw a glimpse at a Mural and Sacrificial Room/Incubation behind the MURAL and a Neomorph like Chest Buster from Milburn, which does-not grow to ADULT... and we also see a Hammerpede Killed which revealed it had Tiny Eggs similar to a Xenomorph.

More closer look at Chest Busted Cryo-Tube Engineers.

And all in all, hints that this Place was One Outpost where they had created a Variant of the Xenomorph and Dialog from David suggesting to Shaw there are many more Ships, at other Outposts.   Where she then says to David but this place is DEATH and he then says the other Outposts likely are separated to STOP Cross-Contamination and he then claims the Engineers had been working on Various Forms of Experiments.  And she would be SAFE provided she does-not contaminate the complex like they did with this ONE.

It should provided enough clues to show that Each Complex had a different Variant of the Bio-Weapon and that contamination with the Black Goo could evolve Organisms to become Hybrids, and that these Hybrids would go on to try and Procreate.

The Careful Reader, would then get a Picture to Ponder if a Outbreak before, and infected Worms had made Hammerpedes that could have Infected those Engineers (in Cryo-sleep) resulting in their Chest Busting something similar to what comes out of Milburn.

Which i envisioned to be a Cross between these Concepts...

Something similar to this i was thinking but with a more Bulbous Head of the Baby Head.   I have edited the Concept to make it more Bulbous and have a Eye, i was thinking something like this but with the Baby Head at the Bottoms Body.

I had this vision for what i wanted when working on my Re-Write in Late 2013, i had discussed and shared similar concept and edited version on here early 2015.

It seems they had decided to use similar take on concepts that was unused to make the Neomorph.

Certainly LONE..

Which is why i think had Prometheus been more a bit of Alien Engineers, like if you took 25% of that and Merged it with Prometheus, or even the kind of Edit i did for Prometheus (which i seemed to misplaced) then it would have pleased the Fans wanting Xenomorphs more.

And Allowed Prometheus 2 to explore what RS wanted and if Prometheus 2 had disappointed because it was LESS Alieny than a more Alieny Prometheus before it... then the 3rd Movie could have got more HR Giger and Alieny.

I got Prometheus i could see the Clues, you had to look back at concepts and Alien Engineers for Clues to make more sense but there was enough in Prometheus by doing this to then make a connection... Just some Fans would have needed it SPOON FED.

Maybe if Prometheus was extended and Dr Shaw discovers the Missing Military Guy, and we have this Scene set when Dr Shaw is just heading to go to the other Temple, and we see the Deacon go after them and KILL the other Merc, but then get Killed by Dr Shaw... maybe this would have helped a little. Plus Alternative Fifield Attack.

But even so some Fans would expect to know HOW the Xenomorph was created as in actually shown in more depth than we got from Davids Experiments... and some may even still ask WHAT happened to the Space Jockey and WHEN.

I think that would have meant making a Prometheus that gave away TOO MUCH!

Huhuhu... guys you make me laugh!

Do you say that Prometheus will better without connection with Alien. Or add more alieny stuff. Or something else.

But you forget one thing. I repeat - ONE THING. Yeah, exactly, I'm talking about Millburn and the same, you know.

And please, tell me - do you really believe what movie will better without Alien stuff, but with stupid characters?

I don't consider them stupid, btw, but we talking about theoretical auditory. What do you think?

I think what people expected a sci-fi film, when "sci" means science. But Millburn absolutely meh about Engineer corpse and go with Fifield. Why? Well, he want meet a friend, not meet an alien life. Yeah, it's answer. It's not a joke! He character perfectly for exploring. He must explore the Engineer's head, and DNA analysis.

Hi Leto!

I'm not saying it would be better without Alien connections, they are there for all to see. I should have expressed myself better, apologies!

For example, we don't have to know who Giger's Space Jockey, or Engineer if you prefer, the one in the derelict, actually is for Prometheus to work. In fact with hindsight I don't think that is even necessary.

I'm in favour of leaving that to personal interpretation. We should have some mystery left & being totally selfish, I want to continue to believe that the SJ's were another race altogether. Although, if things continued on from Covenant we likely would have had an explanation for who the pilot was & why he had the cargo of eggs.

Also, from Prometheus we could assume that each of the Engineer silos contained something different. Maybe some had eggs? Perhaps there were even different species or hybrids in each? Who knows the extent of the LV 223 experiment.

I loved that this was left open.

I think it would have been better as a stand alone movie.

"Also, from Prometheus we could assume that each of the Engineer silos contained something different. Maybe some had eggs? Perhaps there were even different species or hybrids in each? Who knows the extent of the LV 223 experiment."

That's explain why Black Goo from Prometheus beginning works for life creating; from LV-223 as mutagen; from AC as pathogen.

I don't think what Space Jockey should be mystery. And I always liked Engineers from LV-223, they cool.

After all, another reason why people was disappointed with Prometheus. Because Engineer was just an angry biomechanical bodybuilder. :)

About unnecessary Engineers in Prometheus. Well, when Ridley said what Alien prequel mutated in stand alone movie, he meant to the concept of the story what will be focused on Engineers, not on Aliens. He did not mean another universe, which was forced to connect with the Alien Universe. And Prometheus wasn't a story about AI. It's all about Space Jockeys Engineers.

I liked the Engineers, but I want Space Jockeys too, I'm greedy! :) ...even if they are only in my own imagination.

I think it could spoil ALIEN if we view it in the future & know who the pilot was, unless there's a very interesting explanation given.

No sooner were we introduced to the Engineers, when wham, David wipes them out in a flash! Then again Ridley claims they were the real deal, but to me they looked like a human-engineer hybrid.

It's so interesting how we all take different things from both movies & perceive them differently. There's so much food for thought here. 

Prometheus added landscapes and expanded the mystery, to me, in a good way in the Alien franchise.

A lot of the other films' scenes were in cramped/confined space areas while Prometheus started out and continued on with beautiful landscapes and Engineer mythology.

The Engineers, mutagen, and other lifeforms in Prometheus enriched the story in my opinion. And yes, I do like the technology shown including the busy android as well.

"I don't consider them stupid, btw, but we talking about theoretical auditory. What do you think?"

I agree with that, i think regardless of if we got Prometheus, Alien Engineers or Blomkamps Alien 5, Characters have to be done well... lets not Forget ALIENS had some Goofy Characters whats much difference between Hudson and Milburn, Hudson is more of a Goof-Ball, but his Character was Executed Better, by showing he may be a Goof-Ball but he can do his JOB WELL (Kill Stuff), with Milburn he made some silly cheesy mistakes, that fits more with AVPR than a ALIENS... and so was not as Clued-Up or Cautious as a Biologist should be.. but the drafts indicate reasons for this... and deleted scenes to a degree.  He is NOT the ONLY Broken Character in Prometheus though....  My Re-write i attempted to adjust some of the Dialog/Characters and make the SILLY moments seem more Logical...  such as my SPACE COBRA petting Scene... which is more longer and has good reasons for it.

I agree that some of Characters seem to not perform their jobs right in Prometheus... maybe the Vickers never chose the best so the Mission Failed Explanation can go some way to explain it...  But its still not ideal...

For example...  prior to the Hammerpede Petting, i went with the draft idea showing Fifield was smoking POT, and then he takes a Great Interest in the Green Crystal and he attempted to Grab it which then Activated the MURAL Door to open... This was one scene used to show a bit after the Hammerpede Scene  a brief look into the Room Behind.

Milburn is also more careful of the Hammerpede, but he Slips over and ends up facing the Hammerpede... while Fifield is Freaking Out... Milburn turns to tell Fifield to stay calm, and takes his eyes of the Space Cobra which then goes to Strike Milburn, but he manages to Grab it... and then goes to stand up, but then the Hammerpede Wraps around his ARM.

The Alternatives i looked at using the Sacrificial Cup instead, in which case, i had Fifield once covered in the Black Goo Stumble into the Altar and Knock the Cup over and this activated the MURAL Door.

The MURAL Room Shot would have been a quick distance glimpse where you would make out Murals on the Wall similar to HR Gigers Face Hugger Concept. It would show a Octopoid looking Organism, on the Face of a Humanoid, there would be a Image of a Chest Buster like Organism, and a Ovoid like Spore.   The Room also had a Table, and on the Walls Cryo-Sleep Chambers and Smaller more Round Canister like Chambers much like the ones that the Ripley Clones where Grown in, but with a Engineer Tech look to them.

Indicating this Room is where the Engineers would Contain Sacrifices in Storage (Much like the Prisoners in Alien Resurrection) But in Chambers more like Engineer Cryo-Pods, and Eggs in similar to Alien Resurrection but more Round Canister with Engineer look to them.

These Egg Containers are placed Above the Cryo-Pods (or Below) and they are Activated they Move towards and Tilt towards the Cryo-Pods and then they connect much like the Alien Resurrection Face Hugger Scene... but this is NOT implied in the Room we only see the Cryo-Pods and Egg Storage Pods in the same Vicinity and they are all EMPTY the Table in the Center has Drainage Holes and Tubes, i do not show the Roof... but if i did it would have a like Glass Container that would come down onto the Table and Seal the Sacrificial Host on it, much like the MED-POD this is lowered and raised by a Mechanical Arm/Device.

So Visually this scene which would not be shown for long would show us that this Room is where Organisms related to the Deacon/Xenomorph are Stored along with Sacrificial Hosts  and these Hosts are then Infected in a Controlled Environment.... then they are placed on the Table.

This Functions to Contain the Chest Buster... which they then sedate.... then they have TWO options.

1) Obtain Organism and move it to a Growth Pod/Storage.

2) contain the Organism on the Table/Pod and introduce the Goo to it, to then Break Down its DNA and collect the broken down Substance that drains down the Tubes and then taken to a Place via Pipes to be Stored into Containers.

So as to show this Room is where they Gestate a Organism related to the Xenomorph/Deacon and then they Break Down/Obtain its DNA to be stored in the URNS.

I had a idea to expand this, buy having another Character/Merc Wonder and become locked into this ROOM where they explore the Room Beyond that, which is Larger and is some kind of Factory where the Drained DNA of the Sacrificial Room, is placed into the URNS.

However such a Scene would add to the Movie Length, and also having ANOTHER missing Character, would make it even more SILLY to go down to look for Them, Milburn and Fifield.  But its still a scene i would contemplate doing.

All in all, this would reveal what i interpreted the MURAL as and show HOW the Goo got into those Urns.  its just little more detailed scenes like this that would reduce the ambiguity of the Movie.

Regarding the ALIEN connections, as i said you need better Characters, you needed a few more scenes that would be more ALIENY and less Ambiguous as i attempted with my Re-write/Edit....   Then MAYBE it would be enough to please those who was not happy at the lack of Xenomorph Clues and Monsters..  It would sweeten them a little, while still NOT giving too much away...

So then a Prometheus 2 could NOT have to cover the Xenomorph as per say..   But a Prometheus 2 would still have to balance out the Ancient Gods Plot, with something more HP Lovecraftian to be able to make it viable as a ALIEN connected movie..

For example Alien Covenant was LESS of the HR Giger/Derelict like Aesthetic than even Prometheus, where it needed to Maintain more of that Aesthetic but also have the Ancient Looking Buildings... a BALANCE.. But instead this Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic was all but dropped.

I think the broader idea and themes could have worked well as a STAND ALONE movie that had No connections to anything in ALIEN, from Derelict Ship/Space Jockey as far as design/aesthetic.. it could be Bio-Mechanical but just not too much like the ALIEN movies Elephantine Suit, or U/C Shaped Ships.... and also have NO company named Weyland or Yutani, and lastly Monsters that are NOT too close to Eggs, Face Huggers and Xenomorphs.

So yes it may have been for the best if it was like this... PURELY down to how it would not have had to be Shackled with ALIEN and Fans expecting Each movie to be about Xenomorph like Monsters.. and more Horror/Action than a Space 2001 meets At the Mountains of Madness  Space Adventure into the Unknown

Its NOT that having it in ALIEN Universe was wrong, it was that the Balance was not right, the first movie needed to be more like a Alien Engineers, well 50-60% Prometheus, 25-30% Alien Engineers and 10-25% some other things added to make the Aamalgamation more seamless.

Leaving a Sequel to explore the Prometheus elements, to like 80% and ALIEN (HR Giger/HP Lovecraft) elements at 20%

But in HINDSIGHT the Balance was not enough, the connections not enough, and not even ALIENY threat, by that Alien Covenant had this with Neomorph/Xenomorph more than Zombie Fifield and Hammerpede Throat Rape!

So some Fans wanted a more Xenomorph Sequel, and Spoon Fed Origins... and this is what they got with a TWIST they wish they never had!

"For example, we don't have to know who Giger's Space Jockey, or Engineer if you prefer, the one in the derelict, actually is for Prometheus to work. In fact with hindsight I don't think that is even necessary"

I think if we look at HR Gigers Concepts, it shows us Bald Humanoids as the Space Jockey, and the concept idea behind the Prequels was ok, the PROBLEM was the Scale!

The Drafts had 15ft Engineers, then down to 12ft and Finally as of Production Design they was intended to be 10ft but we could see due to lack of Special Effects like used in Game of Thrones and The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, our ILLUSION of a 10ft Race never worked and they passed as 8ft Tops... this is the same Error made in Alien when our Space Jockey went from about 21ft to about 13-15ft by virtue of swapping Child Actors (4ft) with Adults (6ft) when up close to the Space Jockey.

This Error in Size did allow for the Introduction to another Race to be the Space Jockey, or inferred as... and maybe yes they could be LESS Human but would still have to be Humanoid in a Space suit.   But this kind of Reveal is more limited now with the Alien Covenant route of the event NO-LONGER being Ancient.

"Also, from Prometheus we could assume that each of the Engineer silos contained something different. Maybe some had eggs?"

I would TOTALLY agree, because if we look into the Alien Engineers Plot, it seemed to indicate the Engineers came across a Organism they likely NEVER created, (similar to what infected Holloway) then the Engineered/Experimented with it using the Nano-Scarabs (Goo) maybe similar to HOW we had David use various experiments to make different versions of the Deacon/Neomorph related Organisms while on Planet 4.

And so Alien Engineers showed the Engineers had Engineered from some Organism, 7-8 Variations of Organisms Genetically related to a degree.

So its likely Each Temple Complex on LV-223 either had a Different Variation of the Deacon or contained the same Deacon Base but using Different Hosts and thus Each Temple is dedicated to a different Created Race...  The ONE in Prometheus by Luck maybe for Humans. (Fire and Stone also indicated this)  and so either or a combination of the above explanation has to be in and around the correct BALL PARK.

So indeed LONE i feel your was correct with your reply ;)

"And Prometheus wasn't a story about AI. It's all about Space Jockeys Engineers."

I will first add, that the Prequel had started to be more ALIENY, but then it was deemed that the Xenomorphs had been shown over and over, and maybe the other aspects of Alien Engineers was better to Evolve and add more Depth.

Because ONCE you do a Literal Prequel all you are doing is connecting the Dots, or even Marching to the Inevitable.  Most who had seen Alien and Aliens should take away from it, what the Xenomorph was.. 

It was inferred and confirmed by RS way way back, that it was a Bio-Weapon... it was left ambiguous to where it came from... but indicated it was either something they Created as a Purpose of a Weapon of Sorts, or Discovered and seen as potential to use as a Weapon of Sorts or a Combination in something that was Discovered and Engineered/Weaponized on to make a Bio-Weapon.

We only never got any Direct Answer or Spoon Fed showing of this..    

What happened to the Space Jockey? again pretty obvious he was infected by his own Cargo, HOW? well getting Face Hugged but we never got a Spoon Fed series of Events that showed HOW/WHEN he got Face Hugged by his own Cargo.

Some things maybe dont need fully explaining in such detail..

But the idea is ONCE you explain the Xenomorph Origin and if its was as i suggested above (which is what RS had hinted at).  Where do you GO then? once we know the Xenomorph was a Weapon Created by the Engineers, and the Space Jockey Fate explained..  WHATS NEXT?

More Xenomorph Movies?  Xenomorphs vs Engineers vs Marines?

Once you have explained the above, its the WHY that is important, WHY they created it, and for against WHO, and the Process that started it...  show it was Created from Scratch,  Engineered from something Else etc... but its the WHY and for WHO against thats the Bigger Questions to expand on... which could take us to the Space Jockey Race, Culture, History and Conflicts.

So this is what they wanted to START to do, and then decided do we actually need Xenomorphs that have been seen over and over, and do we need to Spoon Feed the Space Jockey Ancient Event?  So lets keep some that Mystery!

The Problem being that taking out the Xenomorph was a issue, not too much... but they needed to replace it with something similar and the Fifield Zombie, Hammerpede Scene, the Trilobite and only seeing the Chest Buster Deacon simply were NOT enough ALIENY encounters and Scenes compared to what Alien Engineers had.. and so they needed for these Scenes a BALANCE.   And so in this Regard... Alien Engineers maybe too much and had more Xenomorph like Monsters (actual Face Huggers) and Prometheus had too Less.... where something in the MIDDLE would have been best.

"And Prometheus wasn't a story about AI. It's all about Space Jockeys Engineers."

So back to this point, indeed to a degree..  but its about Creation, Sub-Creation, the Hubris of this and especially when your Creation gets too much Knowledge/Free-will and become a Threat/Concern and then you Sub-Create something Horrid to use on your Creation that you cant control. Its about Rebellion against your Creator and the Limited Role intended for you.

The AI aspect i feel Ridley Scott is trying to show that AI does-not mean Robots... 

Lets say we go back to WW2 and Hitler Won... and then he decided to Engineer Hybrids, by Crossing Humans and Apes to make Planet of the Apes Super Soldiers then these would be a AI by Virtue of them being a Intelligent Creation but one that is created by Artificial Means.

He could have been setting up that the Engineers in Prometheus are similar, in they are Artificially Engineered.   We need to look at his comments about AI in context to discussing the Alien Covenant Sequel..

He suggested the Replicants are AI and when we consider he called the Planet 4 Engineers the Originals, we could conclude those LV-223 are maybe like Replicants are to Humans in Blade Runner.

I feel he was also asking us about AI in terms of this being a kind of Conscious/Soul and indeed asking IF we have a Eternal Soul...  and i am led to him to go the route of showing WE DONT.. but a AI could, (as in a Synthetic Brain/Conscious Program).

Going further maybe to suggest, IF we ever could Transcend our Memories, Experiences, and thus SOUL into a AI Program (like Transcendence or even the Software used in the Movie The 6th Day to back up these from Humans to be transferred into a Clone when their Original Body is Damaged/Destroyed.

If we ever could achieve this... then we would gain Immortality and a Soul that lives on after Death, and can be Resurrected..... which a AI like Davids Soul could... but maybe a Human without such Technology Achievements would not..

I am drawn to BOTH those uses of AI as subjects RS was looking to expand on, that relate to Engineers and their Creation, and Creators. But also with David and what he wants to Create too.

Lone I agree with the botched marketing on Prometheus.I recall reading an interview in a magazine with Lindeloff.In the interview he stated that Prometheus was a prequel but not in the traditional sense using Star Wars as an example because they were stories we all knew where they were headed.This after all that "don't call It a prequel" publicity.

Another example on how it's advertising may have confused was my Dad's reactions to the advertising.My Dad can count himself among those who saw Alien back in 1979,yet he was completely unaware that Prometheus was a prequel of sorts but was non the less intrigued by the film.I never told him either, instead I said pay close attention next time he saw a commercial for it and he might recognize somethings.He did figure it out.

I saw it in theaters with him, and while I loved it my Dad was only confused as to what the hell it had to do with Alien.My Mother had a similar reaction when I first showed it to her as well.Being tied to Alien created expectations which may not have been fair for Prometheus.

ninXeno426 I can relate to and agree with your parents since I had a similar reaction. It has aged better though.

I agree.I've always enjoyed it,but I thought perhaps because I am a little younger than some and didn't have a lot of expectations. I honestly didn't know what to expect.I didn't follow it heavily on the internet, instead getting most of my knowledge from various magazine articles.The first trailer I saw was in front of The Walking Dead season 2 finale lol.

My first real taste of the movie was by looking at the art book of all things,and it impressed me because what I had seen showed the Alien universe in a way I had never seen before.Prometheus remains the most unique Alien film in terms of visuals.

Thats some good points about expectations... it really depends how much of a ALIEN Franchise Fan you are, and how much you have seen the movies and how much you can recall of every Scene

Next its then how much knowledge you knew of a Prequel being made, and then how much you saw of the Trailers, the Marketing and then looking into the Comments/Interviews.

Depending on all of this, would determine the expectation and knowledge about what you was in for... Point Being that someone who has seen Alien a few times and are not considered a Fan, who then went to see the movie with No Trailers may NEVER even know its connected to ALIEN, even seeing the Trailers...  If you pointed out prior its a Alien Franchise movie or the person is more of a casual Fan or had knowledge of it being a ALIEN Prequel... they would likely be ASKING... so how does this really connect to ALIEN movies?

If you are someone who saw ALIEN a lot and looked at interviews with RS years prior to Prequels and Concept Work for ALIEN etc... then seeing Prometheus you got more of a connection.

I knew about the Prequel i followed very comment/interview in the run up, and saw the Trailers and even without using sites like this, i knew it was going to be a movie to cover the Space Jockey Race, that would likely NOT be a Direct Chronological Prequel.  I did have some concerns that it MAY indeed be some kind of Prequel though, especially with rumors about how it was intended as a kind of Direct Prequel at first.... which to me meant the events of the Film lead to the Derelict, but about 75% of me was expecting it to NOT be as such, and that it would maybe give clues to the event that was Ancient.

And so when seeing the movie and finding the clues to be more ambiguous than expected (i never felt it was going to be Spoon Fed as i paid a lot of attention to the run up).  But the movie had enough clues for me to narrow down the connection...    But to Truly get it, required seeing the movie over and over and taking on board concepts, and previous drafts and comments by RS.

Its not a movie you could show someone who has only seen ALIEN recently for 1-3 times, and they would get it, the only stand out connections would be the Weyland Name, and the Engineers Juggernaught for those paying attention to Alien, the Space Jockey suits maybe to a lesser degree.

IS PROMETHEUS DEAD?

I would say Maybe.... as it is now...  IF we had Alien Covenant do well, then i would still say some of Prometheus would be Dead.

What was Prometheus intended to do?

It was a Prequel to show us WHO the Space Jockey Race was, and what their Species is all about, and to indicate WHY they have those Ships and Bio-Weapons... this was toned down to be less ALIENY than it was in Alien Engineers, but the Principle was the Same these beings are indicated to having those Ships to use as Cargo ships that contain Biological Warfare... be it Eggs or Black Goo.

Seeing Prometheus alone would not have showed directly HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph was created or came across, but enough clues was there to show they are connected to the Black Goo, the Deacon etc, it was just NOT 100% shown which Order the connection was.

Seeing the movie alone would also NOT indicate WHY they use these Biological Warfare not if we only consider HOW does it connect to the Xenomorph... it loosely teased that this was DONE, because "sometimes to Create One Must First Destroy"  which is quite open, but would lead you to consider the Engineers intended to Evolve us into Black Goo Organisms (Hybrids) but it could also mean it may indicate that they need to RID a World of Current Life they deem not necessary or a failure before they can Start Anew!

Its only when you listen to Ridley Scott and others working on the Project and see the Concepts and Early Drafts that you can piece together what this all meant.

We get a more better CLUE of WHY they intended to Destroy us, but again its still not 100% Spoon Fed.

Prometheus was NOT intended to Spoon Feed and Explain the Space Jockey Event or Xenomorph Origins.

Prometheus was setting up to maybe explore/answer in more depth... WHY they created us, WHY they wanted us destroyed and WHY/WHEN they would create such Biological Warfare.

This part of Prometheus is somewhat dead with the Inception of Alien Covenant but gives some clues...  But Alien Covenant switches to show us the Xenomorph Origins and WHO/WHY and WHEN as being the most important thing with the CURVE-BALL they threw...

But alas prior to this, those would have been answered, as we would covered more about Creation, Sub-Creation and Rebellion, while teasing on themes like is there a GOD and a Soul, and WHO is at the Top of all this Creation, are the Engineers the GODS... (No) and this would have been the main basis of Prometheus that sequels would have followed.

These themes that with Alien Covenant are tackled on a different LEVEL after the Anchor to those Questions.. Dr Shaw and the Engineers were KILLED off.

We are exploring those themes, to a degree now but from the Layer of David, and what he would Create, as opposed to more answers about the 2-3 layers above David (Mankind, Engineers who created them) we get those answers very loosely, and it seems the themes will be explored now from David and down as he is now the CREATOR in that Creation Role/Chair.

The Engineers would have returned but would we have got those Questions about Creation and them Answered.. like maybe a Prometheus 2 would have?

Or would they only had been shown in the Angry Giants (not quite so Giant) that we saw in Prometheus and say the Fire and Stone comics where they would be shown to be Technologically Advanced and Strong Bad Asses who will intend to go and Destroy Mankind and maybe then take Davids Creation and use for their own Devices/Study.. like at the Hubris that becomes the Space Jockey Fate.

So we would not get any real depth behind the Chariots of the God like Plot, its likely this VERY Prometheus Plot... will be toned down to basically loosely and maybe in no Deeper Explanation than Prometheus Gave.... these beings do go around to Create/Engineer Life, but then they get Fed up and Disappointed with the Creations and Destroy them to Start Again.

Prometheus 2 may have gave more depth to those LV-223 Engineers and Origins... but Alien Covenant had shown us a little of what this could have been as in only via the ruins of their City... The many Questions from Prometheus are tossed aside... to answer the main thing...

The Xenomorph, WHY/WHEN and HOW and then HOW it gets on the Derelict which is where the Engineers returning would be how the ships comes into play.

So YES.... Prometheus is Dead...

The Engineers may be used as a Plot Device, and more like we see them in the Fire and Stone Comics including the AVP Ones...    In fact maybe we got more depth from the first AVP movie about Predators Rituals and Culture than we would from the Engineers from now one.

The Predators are shown to be 7-8ft Technologically Advanced Ass Kickers, who go around the Galaxy Hunting different Species for Trophies... we dont get no deep History into their Culture and Arts...  AVP gave us more insight to that but only in context to a Alternative Canon of interacting with Worlds/Civilizations to create Temples to use as Place to Gestate and Hunt the ULTIMATE Hunt!   We dont get no details about them interacting with Ancient Mankind in depth or their History.

The Predator Movie throw in the Predators go around Genetically looking to Evolve themselves Plot...

And my point is both AVP and The Predator gave more back ground to the Predators... but still NO-WHERE near as deep as maybe a Prometheus 2 could have with the Engineers.

And so ALAS... maybe this is how the Engineers would have been portrayed now.....  7-8ft Technologically Advanced Ass Kickers were we got some clues that they Created us, and other Species, and go around Creating but then they also go around Creating Horrific Bio-Weapons to Destroy unwanted Creations or those they feel threatened by or disappointed with.

And so as with the Predators Culture and Purpose... which is not shown in depth, i feel we would get the same with the Engineers from now on...

Where its mainly now to show them as 7-8ft Technologically Advanced Ass Kickers who are too much of a Match for Mankind... but have Problems with dealing with the Xenomorphs... but then they take a interest in trying to USE them as a New Weapon... just as in AVP the Predators use them as the Ultimate Hunt.

So Philosophical Prometheus is DEAD..

Popcorn Prometheus as in oh lets use them like the Predators Kicking ASS... is maybe the way we are heading.

Prometheus was setting up to maybe explore/answer in more depth... WHY they created us, WHY they wanted us destroyed and WHY/WHEN they would create such Biological Warfare.

I'd say that's a more than accurate assessment on where Prometheus divided the fans.It's a reminder that it's ties to Alien perhaps should have been loosed.

To answer the question I asked, Prometheus being an Alien film was the selling point.That being said I believe I would have been attracted to this film regardless because I am a big fan of science fiction in general.Prometheus's loose connections to Alien and general lack of xeno origins never phased me,nor did it's "stupid characters".I loved it and still do,It's a misunderstood masterpiece in my book. Where Alien goes from Here remains to be seen but it is safe to say we won't see a film like Prometheus again.

Being tied to Alien is a big reason why the haters hate. It was a decent movie by itself but was billed as an Alien movie- and it was a stretch.

There was also a shift in how people started watching content. Streaming is pretty natural now but not really back then. There is so much great sci fi content via independent shorts (DUST, Omeletto, et al) and streaming services that I will not step into a theater anymore. Theaters can rot for all I care. Directors, writers and producers should act accordingly.

I think a big problem was too much expectation  on it having to be a ALIEN movie where it was expected that we would see the following.

1) Who the Space Jockey Was (which we got indication of, something that would have been explored more in  a sequel aka Engineers).

2) Why the Space Jockey was carrying Xenomorph Eggs (we never got this answer, but we got the Black Goo Indicated as a alternative Bio-Weapon we may have found out why they use such Bio-Weapons in a sequel).

3) Where did the Xenomorph come from its Origins (again this was not explained in Prometheus, but clues to it being connected to LV-223.and the Black Goo...).

Then its likely Fans would have expected to see Xenomorphs or Similar, unleashed on the Human Explorers, even if it was like Alien Covenants Xenomorph/Neomorph but Prometheus never really offered similar.

You would have then wanted some fans (smaller %) who would have actually wanted to see or have explained the Exact Fate of the Space Jockey,  WHEN/HOW/WHY.

Prometheus offered a Ancient Aliens/Astronaut, Chariots of the Gods explanation for the Engineers, it was likely a sequel may have uncovered more about these beings... But the other drafts featured the same Plot.

I dont think most Fans had a Problem with this Plot, some may have, but this would be a Smaller % similar to those who wanted the Derelict Event shown/explained.

With Alien Covenant, this kind of Plot looks to have been toned down as far as not intending to explore it DEEPLY

Prometheus covered some Philosophical and Religious undertones... its quite open to debate how much they would have gone deeper with this in a Sequel.    The Route that Covenant had taken, seems to be exploring a lot of these themes through the World/View of David and what he would Create, as opposed to layers above Mankind/Engineers.

Prometheus raised some NEW Questions and did not answer the Expected Questions (Xenomorphs Origin and HOW/WHEN and WHY those Eggs got onto the Derelict.  And so Alien Covenant began to Answer and Set Up these Answers (Xenomorph Origins, Derelicts Cargo) but its been done in a way that i am sure NOW will make those fans DISAPPOINTED that Prometheus Did-Not answer them.... WISH that it was kept a Mystery ;)

The answers to WHY we was created and what is a SOUL etc i feel will be answered in context to what DAVID would do next, so if we look at his ARC... it could be  indication that the Engineers had the same Motives with us. (Sub-Creation, Rebellion).

Prometheus formula:

60% MYTHOLOGY (almost all staff and ideas, title name for example)

10% RELIGION (different links, hinting scenes)

5% PHILOSOPHY (well, relations of fathers and sons: engineers and humans, humans and androids. Anything else?)

15% OTHER STUFF

About answers - where? Anybody thinks what direct answer is a bad idea? Need only hints?

We still don't know: Do engineers really create a humans, or not?

About soul. This is not even a question! Really. Prometheus showed us: Peter use this words to belittle David, nothing more. And when Peter dies, he said: There is nothing.

THE END. =)

I think you bring up a Good Point on how to look at what the Prequels were thought of having to be about, the expectation.

What i mean by that is at conception of a Prequel for example if we was talking about doing a ALIEN Prequel 10 years ago, the Majority of the Fans would assume a Prequel would have to be about things that made ALIEN what it was... which would be about the Xenomorph, and the Mystery that was never touched up on in any ALIEN sequels... which was the Xenomorph Cargo of Eggs, WHERE, WHEN and WHY as far as where they came from, when they got on the Derelict and WHY the Space Jockey had them.

A ALIEN prequel could have looked at other stuff than those Eggs, because what also made ALIEN what it was, was to show we had this Weyland-Yutani Company who appear to have little concerns about the Lives of Mankind as long as they can get their hands on Technology or anything else that would Benefit them.  A lot of fans would assume a ALIEN Prequel would still have to connect to the Derelict and so in context to the Company the only thing most Fans would want to know is WHAT did the company know before hand that lead to Special Order 937 and so they would not have accepted a movie that only gave us say the History of the Weyland-Yutani Company, or its advancements in Space Exploration, Terra-forming, Mining for Minerals or Technology including Synthetics.

It would only matter about WHAT role the company played in ALIEN, which was having prior Knowledge of something on LV-426 that it was willing to send a Secret Android with a Space Tug Boat and its Crew to go down and obtain a Specimen.

The other Aspect would certainly be to find out WHO the Space Jockey was which could open up avenues to who he was, where he was from, but for many fans it would be the WHY and WHERE did he get that Cargo from that would matter.

Which once you ANSWER that, and its been pretty much indicated before, but for those who ONLY see the Movies and dont look into Interviews etc, then those Questions had no real answers for them from ALIEN apart from that it was pretty obvious the Space Jockey became victim to his own Cargo... but with Camerons ALIENS, some fans started to speculate if there was NO Eggs on that ship until a Face Hugger infected the Space Jockey with a Queen!

so a Prequel would have been expecting to mainly show HOW and WHERE those Eggs came from and got on that ship... its a case of ONCE you answer that, then where do you go next?  

Back to more Ripley and Xenomorphs?

Explore who the Space Jockey Race are?

The latter is something you have to be careful with due to potentially causing In-continuity with the Franchise... for example if you discover Living Space Jockeys who have BAD plans for Mankind...  If the Prequel we discover NO living Space Jockeys or just a FEW who are killed off, its then HOW do you explore a Race who is then gone... WHERE do the rest of them come from, HOW far away.

Exploring some ANCIENT Alien Race who are from Thousands if not Tens of Thousands of Light Years away, involved in some Cosmic War  with their own kind or ANOTHER species, that may have ENDED many THOUSANDS of years ago....  this kind of Answer would limit the potential to cover these in sequels... because you have to have a HUMAN Character connection.

THIS.... is where they introduced the Chariots of the Gods type Plot (Mankind was Created, or at least Evolved and Taught by Alien Beings who we then interpreted as Gods and formed the basis for Mythos and Religions).

While this allowed a connection to Humans, it was maybe not the best reveal for a proportion of Fans, but i dont think this was a MAJOR problem, its SPLIT some fans, but it would NOT have mattered if the Prequel had Xenomorphs or at least similar and gave GOOD indication about WHY the Space Jockey/Engineers had and used Biological Warfare.. which PROMETHEUS did... but it was Way-Tonned down from anything like Eggs and HOW/WHERE they could have came from... where as ALIEN ENGINEERS, catered for the fans with this.

With Prometheus they felt that actually some Mystery is best kept, and we have seen Eggs, Face Huggers and Chest Busters enough times, and so exploring the Race behind them was considered the Plot from Alien Engineers to expand upon.

I DONT think we need a Spoon Fed what happened to the Space Jockey, its pretty simple, maybe not for fans who cant think about the clues..  but while its a Mystery its still open for it to be the Space Jockey found a Place of Eggs, got infected and Chest Busted a Queen ;)

I think WHAT should have been done, was to give more clues to WHERE and WHEN the Eggs came from however... once you answer that connection with the Space Jockey/Engineers we really dont need to cover WHEN/WHY the Derelict ended up on LV-426.... as long as we had more clues to WHEN/HOW the Engineers had the Eggs, and WHEN maybe the Space Jockey event may have happened. (which does-not have to show us the EVENT at all).

Sorry for the Ramble...  this shows what was expected and what was not delivered.

So then we had Prometheus NOT deliver on what was expected, as detailed in prior post..

What Prometheus was concentrating on was the loose Mythos and Religion more so than in Alien Engineers (just slightly more).  More so in regards to the Quest for Answers to the Gods, Creation, and Immortality, partially told from the Quest of Peter Weyland who wanted to NOT die.

Where do we come from? Where do we go when we Die?

What constitutes having a SOUL? Do we have one and WHY does David not have one?

What is Paradise? is this place in anyway similar to the Religious Context and After-Life or more the Mythical?

These were the Themes Prometheus was trying to Set-Up that was not so much included as deep in Alien Engineers.

Here lies the PROBLEM... if we was asked 10 years ago, would we want to see a ALIEN prequel, and what it should be about... IF we had Ridley Scott state the Main Focus would be about those Philosophical/Religious connections i Highlighted above.  And it would tie in how the Space Jockey and Mankind are connected... but it WOULD-NOT have any Xenomorphs or even explain WHERE the Eggs came from or how they got on the Derelict.

I am pretty sure a Majority of Fans would be like NO THANKS... what the Hell has that got to do with ALIEN and the Xenomorph!

Thankfully maybe for some, i feel these Elements (Why was we created, where do we go when we die) are passed by now, and would not be dealt with.

They seem to be set-up slightly in context to David now, and following the ACTUAL main Plot of Prometheus, which is the Creation Plot, Sub-Creation, the Hubris of this especially of your Creation is either Superior, has Free-Will, gains all knowledge of their Creators and can Procreate.

Again these are themes that i feel a proportion of fans would feel HAS nothing to do with ALIEN. But alas, it was not intended to do so, Prometheus was to NOT be a literal prequel as far as exploring the Xenomorph.  And to a degree Alien Engineers was not either.. but it did at least cover the Xenomorph... something IF we had Prometheus do, then it could have CLOSED the Door to Alien and gone on to do its own thing.

I would now LETO..

Like to tackle a few points directly...

"Anybody thinks what direct answer is a bad idea?"

I covered in my posts about this, in that i dont think we needed to see HOW/WHEN those Eggs got on that Ship, or even WHAT happened...  What we needed to do is see similar Eggs, and indications that they created Organisms like this and for WHAT purpose and WHEN they did this.

Basically if we had Alien Engineers but took out the Xenomorphs as far as ones that are similar/same, replace them with something a bit different (again slightly different Face Hugger, Egg and Organism) maybe keep Ultramorph as being close to the Xenomorph..

Then Alien Engineers with NO Xenomorphs but similar, would have given the Fans enough clues to determine the reasons for the Eggs.... and i think it would have pleased 50-70% of Fans but you would always have some who would wanted actual Xenomorphs and have the Space Jockey Event played out on Screen and be asking WHERE is the Queen!

"We still don't know: Do engineers really create a humans, or not?"

Its been indicated but again ambiguous to the degree you could ask DID they really create us? What is known for Certain was that THEY are connected, and those Engineers or some similar Race connected to them had visited Earth over and over... Ridley Scott had indicated the Engineers are our Forerunners... but he also implies the Engineers ARE-NOT the Top of the Creation Chain.  It is still open for debate... we could even have a Curve-ball that a more Ancient Version of Mankind Created the Engineers or Evolved themselves into Engineers.

"About soul. This is not even a question! Really."

Its not a Question really in context to what should connect to a ALIEN movie..  I think RS was looking at some Curve-ball ideas behind what is a SOUL..

Peter Weyland was not really a believer in such, not with 100% Conviction, hence his Quest for Immortality and his Mocking of David for lacking one... i feel was leading to revelations that INDEED we dont have a Soul... but actually a Synthetic AI has more of a Soul than we have... unless we could Transcend our Memories, Emotions and Personality into a AI then we would gain a REAL after-life and Eternal Soul.

But i feel these were done with Ambiguity.... the THERE is NOTHING comment, likely refers to there is Nothing as far as gaining Weyland more LIFE..

So then Weyland is dying and he will Discover that Answer regarding the SOUL (for which he claimed David does-not have and a Human does).  He will soon discover if indeed he has ONE or there is NOTHING..

Which is when David wishes Weyland a Good Journey this in turn is Davids Mockery towards Weyland.

Again all these kinds of things are NOT really what a ALIEN Franchise should be about... its a distraction from it, but i think it should not be about the Xenomorph either. 

The Engineers/Space Jockey is where we should have been heading..

But we are not following all the Themes and Philosophy though the Arc/Story of David and what he would create next... just as the Xenomorph Origins are also now though the Arc/Story of David

These Themes and Creation of the Xenomorph should have been explored through the Engineers ARC or their Creators... but ALAS.

NinXeno426, it is an interesting topic.

Prometheus was alright (I give it 2 out of 5), there are things that I like about it and there are also things that are lame. The biggest issue is the same as with Covenant, mostly lame characters although they are less annoying in Covenant. It did not help that they could not decide if it was an alien prequel or not, that was stupid.

Alien Engineers had less dumb things than what we got in the end but then the draft to Prometheus whole still having more things connected to Alien was better than the final movie. Both Lindelof’s version and Spaight’s version are better than what ended up in the movie. Once again Fox F’ed it up just like they did with Alien 3. I love Alien 3 but it would probably have been better if Fox wouldn’t have interfered.

The Engineers are one of the things that Prometheus got right

“So I ask this,do you think Prometheus would have been better off as an original science fiction film?”

Maybe, the story in itself is not bad but they messed up the characters mostly, that is my biggest problem with it. Supposedly smart people (scientists) doing stupid things. Some things:

Petting a space snake, thinking that they would get there before the storm would get them. Shaw holding on to the head instead of thinking about her own life. Holloway taking his helmet off in the what ever the place was. There are other things as well.

“Prometheus asked big questions,questions that don't seem relevant to the xenomorph.”

I would have liked it to be closer to the Xenos, the Engineers were interesting but the human characters were the biggest problem. The evil company should also have had more involvement if you ask me. One things that I want to make clear is that the lack of Xenos is hardly the issue that I have with the movie, the new monsters were interesting. Only Janek and David were well done, the rest were not, they should have had someone that could write human characters, it was the same with AC.

One things that I am disappointed with in Prometheus still is that they rejected the Xeno Fifield in favor of the effing Zombie, sigh but we have what we have.

Unlike you NinXeno426 I am not a huge fan of either of them, they both have their good and bad things but thanks for the post.

Ingeniero: Yeah the landscapes are great in Prometheus and I also like how they introduced the Engineers although they were a bit vague. Unfortunately the human characters are mostly not well done. They should have expanded on the Engineers in what became Alien Covenant but now we have what we have which is not good (both Covenant and the situation of the movies).

“I think the whole crux of the matter is that Prometheus, though it does have Alien origins, doesn't need to connect directly with ALIEN.” - Lone

To me that is a problem, make up your mind if it is or is not (I mean those that made the movie). How difficult can that be? I think that they were vague about it, I am not sure if it was Lindelof that was like that about it, but no matter who is to blame, it was not good. As far as the Engineers are concerned I think that it was a mistake to erase them in AC because that could have been really interesting, they responded in the wrong way in AC unfortunately.

“Just some Fans would have needed it SPOON FED.” - BD

Well, you don’t need to do that but it could have been less ambiguous without being obvious so to speak. You mention as much of an alien fan that you need to be to enjoy Prometheus. Prometheus should have been less vague about that even though I understand it kind of well after an X amount of viewings, but it seems to be about bad writing and/or execution.

“If you are someone who saw ALIEN a lot and looked at interviews with RS years prior to Prequels and Concept Work for ALIEN etc... then seeing Prometheus you got more of a connection.”

Yeah but that should not have to be the case though because out of let’s say 100 persons how many do you think will bother to do that, hell even out of 200?

Showing us more about the SJ’s is not bad but they are tied to the Xenos so the connection to the Xenos should have been better.

“The answers to WHY we was created and what is a SOUL etc i feel will be answered in context to what DAVID would do next, so if we look at his ARC... it could be indication that the Engineers had the same Motives with us. (Sub-Creation, Rebellion).” - BD

I don’t really care about another David movie, let it be.