Hollywoods Worst Kept Secret?

Personally, I'm glad that the secret is out - at least in part. The back story to the Engineers' universe has hardly been tapped and there is plenty of scope for wonder (and horror) in that realm. What we're missing is imagination and creativity. Unfortunately, I don't think that Hollywood/Disney would be able to stomach a movie that is utterly alien in its nature, because audiences wouldn't be keen. As for myself, the weirder and more alien the premise, the better!

For a long time, I imagined that the Derelict Egg Chamber was once flooded with water, and had been parasitised by a water-borne monster.

Then, looking more closely at the vaginal openings of the ship, I wondered if the ships were partly organic and could reproduce sexually - perhaps with a male counterpart. The life story of something that wild could make an interesting movie on its own.

I mean, just off the top of my head... a pregnant ship lands on an outpost and is approached by humans. It fires defensive darts from its "skin" that tag the intruders. Later, their guts explode in a blizzard of whirling, lashing, arachnid forms. That would be fun. 

woow.

It seems best to speculate than a franchise to churn out movies and prequels that basically leave more questions. Off shoot stuff is fine, but if a way forward cannot be forged, it should end- with no cash grabbing prequels.

hox brings up an excellent idea but it would likely be too much for theaters or too niche to be profitable.

I think that the way to forge ahead is to continue after Resurrection and it doesn't have to have Ripley involved. Prequels haven't done much for the franchise.

All secrets will be revealed. It's unavoidable.

But, I agree with dk.

>>>It seems best to speculate than a franchise to churn out movies and prequels that basically leave more questions.

No answers is better than mystery only for mystery. I call it - forced mystery. For example:

Alien has a good mystery stuff. Who is Space Jockey? What kind of cargo is he transporting? Where did he get this deadly cargo? What is this cargo for? Where did he come from?

This is a background mystery. You can speculate and at the same time have a solid film with a finished story! Why? Because these issues are not directly related to the plot of the film. You can answer these questions in another movie if you want. But. Do. Not. Try. To. Create. Forced. Questions!

Another example:

Prometheus has a forced mystery stuff. The film was supposed to answer all the questions. It was positioned as a film with answers. I specifically emphasize this. Because we can that why did you expect Aliens in this film? The film was never positioned like a movie about Aliens. It's true. You may also ask - why this film is not a prequel? The film was never positioned like a prequel. It's true. But the truth is also that the film was positioned as a film created for the answers. You cannot argue against this. Because this is how the film was presented to the public. Point of sale, if you will.

Prometheus sets the whole plot point about this ... and doesn't give answers. Just because Ridley wanted a mystery.

It all depends on what you mean:

>>>i think ULTIMATELY they should have KEPT the Entire thing a MYSTERY!

If you mean some entire mystery about Alien Universe - it can be speculated.

But if you mean those secrets that Ridley forcedly left in Prometheus, then they should definitely be answered. Because it was a promise. It was an idea. That was the plot point.

hox

Great ideas!

I also have ideas that the Derelicts were a kind of biomechanical life forms. A giant bio-brain is growing in the central part of the ship. And the observation dome is the eye. Engineers catch these ships and remove the brain (a kind of lobotomy). At the place where the bio-brain used to be, they mount the Pilot Chair.

The ship also produces Black Goo. Actually, that's why the Engineers catch them. Black Goo - the most important thing in the universe. The source of life.

But sometimes something goes wrong. The appearance of ovomorphs on Derelict (and the strange impregnation of pilot) is a kind of ship's immune system that responded to the invasion of the Engineers.

I think that there was many ways that the MYSTERY could have been Answered, but what we END up with is something which would NOT please everyone....  If you are NOT careful then the Answers could take away the Mystique of the Mystery.

What Prometheus had done was to begin to Answer who the Engineers were, they gave us this Chariots of the God Plot, Creation, Visitation, Knowledge and Rebellion. 

As at this TIME they felt that you did not have to Continue with Answers to ALIEN and continue about Xenomorphs and that you can LEAVE those a Mystery, with Prometheus just providing some Clues but still leaving it Ambiguous.

Prior to Prometheus what we had was this ALIEN Ship, with what we assume was the Pilot who had been Obviously Infected with the same Cargo that Kane had.

The Pilot was Fused to the Chair, like Technologically Connected and so it was Highly likely that its RACE had Created the Ship.... or the Ship was Created Specifically for the Space Jockey.

The Cargo was something that was Equally Deadly to the Space Jockey as it was any other Unsuspecting Life Form.  The Xenomorph was like a Amalgamation of Organic and Mechanical Aesthetic, which the Derelict Ship seemed to also SHARE...   Surely NOT by a Coincidence there had to be a Connection.

So there was some Connection between the Ship, the Pilot and the Cargo.   Which for me left me to Ponder (i am talking 20+ Years ago.

1) The Xenomorph Organism was a Natural Organism well something the Space Jockey had Discovered and had USED this Organism to Evolve/Create Technology from, maybe the Organism had Multiple Uses for the Space Jockey.

2) The Space Jockey Race had Created the Bio-Mechanical Ship and the Eggs are a Engineered Organism that is likely used in some kind of Conflict (Biological Warfare).

3) There is some other Race that for some reason has a USE/NEED for those Eggs and they Created the Ship and they had either Created or Enslaved the Space Jockey Race to use the Derelict Ship to Transport those Eggs... for what reason we can only Speculate...  was it for Warfare? for some Technological Reason? or for some other reason to Procreate the Organism?

For me the Shared Aesthetic was NO Coincidence, and so for me Option 1 did not seem so likely, if it was then the Space Jockey Race had been Transporting and Using the Xenomorph for Thousands maybe Millions of Years.  There was NO-WAY the Ship had recently just came across the Eggs.

So i was drawn more to Option 2 or Option 3

The Prequels did begin in Order to give us Answers but even at the Early Stage it was not so SPOON FED... at some point they decided you DID-NOT have to have Xenomorphs or even SHOW where they came from and HOW they got onto the Derelict.  They felt that discovering WHO the Space Jockey was is more Important as NO-ONE had covered them and if the Xenomorph is after all just a Engineered Bio-Weapon then surely the Space Jockey Story was more Important to tell.

What it did do is indicated some Connections that left some Mystery, what we should have been able to Connect was that the Xenomorph is related to what ever they was doing on LV-223 many Thousands of Years ago.

Which should have Narrowed it down to TWO Connections.

a) The Xenomorph was ONE result of the LV-223 Experiments or Outbreak, either by Design or Accident.

b) The Xenomorph was the BASIS that had led to the LV-223 Experiments that eventually lead to the Outbreak.

Alien Engineers seemed to indicate a THIN LINE between the TWO in which something related to the Xenomorph was surely the Basis of Experiments of which the Xenomorph was but ONE eventual Outcome.

But this was NOT really Spoon Fed in Prometheus.

Prometheus did leave another Mystery which was details of exactly what LV-223 was for and what Happened on LV-223 before the Engineers abandoned the Place.  We also never knew 100% how LV-223 connected to the Eggs and which came First?

Never-mind HOW/WHEN the Derelict event Happened and HOW the Eggs got on the Ship but surely before Prometheus this was not ROCKET SCIENCE ;)

It seemed the Intentions of the sequels would have to NOT really give much away about the Xenomorph, its Origin or a Detailed Explanation of Events from when the Engineers First Set Foot on LV-223 to the Outbreak/Space Jockey event.

So all we had at this POINT in regards to the Mystery was.

The Space Jockey are Connected and Likely Engineers who are a Humanoid Race who had played a Role in the Creation and Evolution of Mankind (likely among other Worlds/Races) a Race of would be Gods who go around Seeding Life and Visiting and Evolving Worlds, both Genetically and Technologically but without giving us a reason WHY.

At some point this Race or a Faction of them had began to Experiment on LV-223 with Experiments that would lead to Horrors that appear to have some Aesthetic Connection to the Xenomorph without giving us the Exact Connection.

The Reason for this is left a little Ambiguous unless we go by Ridley Scotts comments which would indicate that those Engineers had decided to Create Biological Warfare for Protection and to deal with preserved Threats of which Mankind was deemed one.  

But there was that Ambiguity where you could not rule out that some Engineers had become Obsessed with the Xenomorph or its Ancestor and had Experimented to maybe Perfect themselves or use its DNA to Evolve Life as they saw it as more PERFECT than their own Humanoid DNA.

But then we had arrived at Alien Covenant and the Revelations in that... which was just continuing the Themes that was more Present in Prometheus and so it likely took the MYSTERY and Answer that was connected to those LV-223 Engineers and Xenomorph and decided to make it that a Sub-Creation by Mankind had Created the Xenomorph instead... which maybe was something NOT far from the Truth... just in regards to HOW those LV-223 Engineers had done this instead....

And so in CLOSING...

What we had was a Ancient Humanoid Ancestor Race that had Created Mankind, that then had started to Conduct Experiments on stuff on LV-223 and maybe themselves, which likely resulted in our Super Engineers and other Horrors on LV-223. 

This answers our Space Jockey Race and Derelict Ships.

Then looking for this Godlike Creators we have some Humans Turn up at this Place of Experimentation with one of our own ENGINEERED Creations.... the Android David who then uses the Engineers Experiments to go and Continue and Evolve what they was working on and THUS give us the Xenomorph.

Space Jockey as 7-8ft Tall Humanoids who we are descended from via Experimentation and Seeding of their DNA.

Xenomorph that is the Creation of a Android who is not Happy with his Role/Treatment by his Creators Humans who wished to use the Engineers Experiments to Create his OWN Creation...

I am sure these are NOT what most would have expected the Answers to be some 10+ Years ago.

Thats why i think in HINDSIGHT the Mystery and Prequels should NOT have happened as then we have our own Imaginations of the Mystery.

Ridley Scott chose to Answer these because he LOST all control of what became of a ALIEN 2 and he surely knew that Eventually after a ALIEN 5, ALIEN 6 a AVP 3 and 4.... that Eventually he knew that someone would ANSWER the Mystery from ALIEN.

So he wanted to make sure he was a PART of this so that he could have some Input onto the Mystery and especially the Space Jockey Revelations.

If we look at the Source Material.... STARBEAST

What we had was that the Xenomorph was a Juvenile Stage of a ALIEN Organism that were Ancient and Advanced somewhat.

The Space Jockey was just another unrelated Alien Race that had came across the remains of this LOST ALIEN Civilization the Egg/Spore Stage of their Life-Cycle.  This unsuspecting Giant Race had suffered the same Fate that the incoming Human Crew had suffered.

The in effect Space Jockey had decided to take some of the Eggs/Spores to their Ship for Study and became infected.

This had EVOLVED with ALIEN that the Space Jockey Race and Eggs were NOW connected. The Connection was not really shown, but Ridley Scott had indicated that the Eggs were a Biological Weapon that the Space Jockey was carrying on his Ship.... we had NO reason for WHY or WHERE he was going.

The Virtue that there was a Aesthetically Connection between the Ship and Cargo meant they had to be connected as i described in by previous Reply.   The Xenomorph either came after the Derelict Technology, or the Derelict Technology came from the Xenomorph (Re-Engineering etc) or they both were Created together.

This is all we could Conclude before the Prequels...

HR Giger however had some Interesting Comments and Thoughts on the Xenomorph and Derelict.

He seemed to indicate that the Ship was Genetically if you would Connected to the Eggs, the Ship would actually Create the Eggs.  And the Ship was likely GROWN.

He felt the Pilot was Permanently Connected to the Chair. A Slave to his Ship.

He felt the Xenomorph was a Cyborg it was Part Organic and Part Mechanical which he also claimed the Derelict was.

His other Concept works did indicate that the Space Jockey was some Humanoid Species that would Self-Sacrifice themselves to allow for the Procreation of the Xenomorph, and along with the Xenomorph being connected to the Ship in his Concepts.. this seemed to Indicate that in his MIND the Space Jockey Race are just Humanoids that would be USED to Spread the Xenomorph around the Galaxy...

For what Benefit this Humanoid Race gained was anyone's Guess.

So we never really got Answers... but when you look at Starbeast and HR Gigers ideas then i think there was a much more ALIEN and Lovecraftian Answer to the MYSTERY ;)

The Ship Producing the Eggs was interesting... exploring what it Needed to be able to do so could have been Sinister, Horrific and Lovecraftian.

But ALAS.

"The ship also produces Black Goo. Actually, that's why the Engineers catch them. Black Goo - the most important thing in the universe. The source of life"

I think something like this could have worked, especially if we never had Alien Covenant, as at this point we certainly could have Speculated that the Juggernauts are Reverse Engineered from the Derelict Ship.

There was a lot that was ALIEN about the First Movie, with ALIENS and the Queen revealed as a Egg Layer it did kind of replace the Egg Morph but thats not to say a Queen does-not make sense.

Looking at the Egg Morph and the Black Goo, then we dont really know HOW the Egg Morph happens, we know that the Xenomorph must do something to the Human Host, but we dont know the Process of this.  However when looking at the Black Goo then you could speculate the Xenomorph could Infect a Host with a substance that is similar to the Black Goo that then Re-Writes the Hosts DNA and Mutates it into a Xenomorph Egg. 

This Mural by HR Giger is Very Interesting as to me it seemed to indicate the Xenomorph is Genetically if you would connected to the Derelict, and that the SHIP would Produce some kind of WORM like Parasite that would then Evolve/Grow into a Egg.

The Substance the Engineers use in Alien Engineers are Nano-Scarabs, which are replaced with the Black Goo but at a Microbiological Level the Black Goo could be TINY Nano Worm like Parasites.

We have some indication of this in Prometheus (especially unused Props) and some work on a Earlier Version of a Prometheus Sequel.

So if they had introduced the Derelict as a more Older Ship that Produced the Parasitic Pathogen that can produce Eggs, i think that could have worked and we can speculate on WHAT is needed for the Ship to Produce the Substance in the First Place and surely come up with some Horrific and very ALIEN ways that this occurs.

But it is Extremely Unlikely we would get anything revealed like that, and we have to accept a Derelict is the same as a Juggernaught and are a Manufactured/Engineered creation of the Engineers.

I guess they could give us another LAYER above the Engineers and introduce something more Lovecraftian and Surreal but i doubt we would ever see such a thing.

I think between O'Bannon's idea and what went on in HR Gigers Mind could have given us a ALIEN/LOVECRAFT revelation of the whole Derelict, Eggs and Pilot.

But that Ship has sailed a long time ago.... with the Prequels.

It is nice to see a new thread, good work.

About the prequels, if we look at how they have turned out I wish that they should never have been released at all. They do not stand a chance against the first three.

When I am finished watching Alien the question is among others – who was the pilot and how did he get that cargo with eggs. There is a mystery there that is very interesting but that is also difficult to live up to when you try to give it an answer. The problem is that Alien itself is such a good movie so any attempt to answer the cargo will likely turn out to be a disappointment. I like the idea of the Engineers but I do not like that they have pointed to David as the eventual creator of the monster since it makes it too close to humans. While I understand the theme it becomes a disappointment from a story kind of view.

"By attempting to ANSWER in part at least the Mystery, they was NEVER going to reveal Answers that would Please everyone…"

I agree but they could sure have come up with a better answer than to show us that the monster was a result of something that we have created. I kind of understand why they did that but from a story point of view it was a huge disappointment. This is what happens when you let someone that does not understand good writing affect the story.

"That for many has NOW become a Worse kind of Secret (Revelation)."

Yeah because it is shit, crappy story writing. If this is what they thought was good writing and something that many would appreciate it has turned it into somewhat of a joke. Look, if they thought that AR was bad actually the idea that David created it makes at least certain parts of AR look better. At least it has not made important aspects of the franchise into a laughing stock but to be fair I think that AC as a whole is better than AR.

"Should it have remained a Secret?"

I think so, but since they have not finished them I would say that it could be wise to erase them from the official time-line and maybe let someone with better ideas and better writing re-make them. The probability that they will throw more crap at the franchise than the prequels have done is small.

"What kind of Ideas/Answers did you Imagine in your Mind before the Prequels?"

I am not sure but at least it was something that was far more alien than what we have been given and it was not about a stupid fucking robot. Probably that the pilot was from a sort of civilization far away that had a deadly cargo but I did not know what his mission was or how the eggs got there. So many possibilities but unfortunately they let Scott affect the story and we have what we have.

When I first saw the Prometheus trailer, I thought the Engineer was Dr. Holloway after the mutagen had run it's course.

@Thoughts_Dreams

You raise some Valid Points, i certainly think that when you leave it SO LONG with a Franchise before a Sequel then your always going to find it HARD to compete with the Original, and Reboots often Face the Same Problem...   With ALIEN one of the things that Stood Out even after the Sequels, AVP and Countless times we see Xenomorphs in Comics and Games was that for the Most Part (apart from in a few Comics) their Origin and that of the Space Jockey was a MYSTERY

I think you could have Disney wait and then REBOOT the Prequels and Answers and even then its UNLIKELY they would get it RIGHT too.

Regarding the Prequels we have something that had Evolved over Time, there was Valid Reasons for why we had the Engineers Plot, there was a Good Reason to then give us Prometheus, as a Mystery is Good for some but for others they expected SOLID Answers.

We need to not overlook other peoples influence on what we got though, FOX Executives, Hill and Giler etc... as i do seem to think that AC was NOT what Ridley Scott wanted, but if he got his way then i still think we would have had a Prequel Series based more about David than the Xenomorph, but its likely he would have been Responsible for something Different and leaving the Xenomorph Origin as a Mystery.... but instead we now have it appear that he is the Creator.... but we have covered this OVER and OVER ;)

I think its Interesting to Discus what we interpreted before the Prequels and what we would have liked to have seen.  I think there is SCOPE to introduce something more ALIEN and LOVECRAFTIAN but i doubt we will see that.

As its stands then it is TOO Connected to Mankind as far as the Space Jockey Connection and NOW the Xenomorph which i think prior to the Prequels are TWO things that we would have imagined as being FAR FAR from Connected to Humans and Earth.   I think its easy to blame Ridley Scott, but we have to remember that David Giler and Walter Hill have more Influence and they Introduced the A.I to O'Bannons Story (which i think was a Great Idea)  they introduced the Conspiracy/Agenda of a Company wanting to USE the Xenomorph... which is a Big Theme of the Franchise.   But we have to remember had Hill and Giler got their Draft 100% made, then it was the Company that had Engineered the Xenomorph on LV-426 which i think would have taken away the ENIGMA of the Organism... which essentially the AC Plot has repeated :(

"When I first saw the Prometheus trailer, I thought the Engineer was Dr. Holloway after the mutagen had run it's course"

LOL yeah i remember that Speculation ;)

The First Trailer was Good it did-not give too much away ;) i remember looking at it over and over and Speculating on here what is going on.   And indeed in Part i felt the theory that this was Holloway was Plausible at the Time as we do see the LATER SHOT of him (2:08) and you could think the Shot from (0:16) as being the same Person, but it seems the Same Thing was going on.   However i read into the "king has his reign" as something IMPORTANT and so when looking at the Viral Website and Virtue of the Name DAVID then i was lead to a PINOCCHIO moment when considering ALL of the Trailer... i had discussed on here and thought we would see some Crew Infected with the Pathogen, and then David would INFECT himself and become the Space Jockey we see in the Trailer... in part i Concluded this from this SHOT.

As this certainly did not look like a 7ft being NEVER-MIND a 12 Foot+ Space Jockey, but from this Perspective then Ian Whyte looked around 6ft something Mark ;)

So i thought right we are gonna see the STUFF that Mutates people, then it will do something different to David to make him PART-ORGANIC and then the Octopus like Fetus of Dr Shaw will INFECT our David as he is in the Chair and this becomes our SPACE JOCKEY and the Chest Buster will be a Queen and LAY the Eggs.... That in Part was what i was Drawn to at that time and i FELT it made sense but then SUCKED because it would mean the Xenomorph was NOT Ancient and the Space Jockey was just a ROBOT lol.

However upon seeing the 2nd Trailer my thoughts turned to this being Peter Weyland instead ;) a little...  but also by this time looking at the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods and Big Head Statue i did think this was the Character in the Opening Shot... but i had wondered if the Character who was attacking Dr Shaw was Weyland as he Evolves himself into that BEING...

Again this was purely down to HOW SMALL they looked in the Shot i put as a image above, and the Pilot Chair Scene they never looked as Big as the Space Jockey and so i thought our Space Jockey in this Movie was either gonna be David or Weyland ;)

HOW WRONG was I ;)  as we got to the other Trailers you could make out Davids Head on the Floor, and the Engineer appeared to be over 7ft so at this point i had concluded it was NOT going to be David and maybe it could not have been Weyland but then i was not 100% sure and the being still did-not look to be LARGE enough to be a Space Jockey or the Giant Like beings from our Ancient Mythology etc.

But alas it turned out our Engineers/Space Jockey were 7-8ft Tall ;)

I do recall the Excitement of the First TWO Trailers and Anticipation for the Prequel, i came away not 100% Satisfied but after watching it Twice more i came to Appreciate it and what it SET UP for any Sequels.  I did not see a Problem with HOW it had kept some Mystery and offered us some NEW Mysteries but then i was hopeful these NEW Ones would be answered in a Sequel. 

I remember i was last as Excited (prior to Prometheus) about a Prequel with The Thing 2011 and Star Wars Phantom Menace and both of them Disappointed me much more ;)

"A giant bio-brain is growing in the central part of the ship. And the observation dome is the eye. Engineers catch these ships and remove the brain (a kind of lobotomy). At the place where the bio-brain used to be, they mount the Pilot Chair."

The above ideas are fabulous Leto.  

Sincerely, that truly sounds alien and hard to imagine how it would look with ancient highly technical Engineers capturing and overwhelming a massive biomechanical organism.  That is well though out.

Awesome.  I wan't two servings of something like that.

I think that is a Interesting Idea by Leto

Certainly more Plausible with the Derelict due to its more Organic Look.

I did have a idea a while back on how to ADD another Layer to the Cake, i think i made a Topic on it, i at least did some replies about it.

I was looking at the World Turtle Mythos  and thought what if there was a GIANT MOTHER Ship that was like a Giant Bio-Mechanical Turtle of Sorts that would PRODUCE the Derelict Ships.

I certainly feel and especially before Alien Covenant we could have revealed that another Species was above the Engineers who used to GROW the Ships, and Enslave the Engineers to do their bidding before a Rebellion, Downfall and eventually the Engineers then Re-Engineering this other Species Technology.

You could have some GIANT Ship that would be where these Derelicts are Grown if you would. By Giant i mean like MASSIVE.... maybe Death Star sized or Larger.

The Head like Shape above the Door that leads to the Big Head Room, and above the Mural do remind me a bit of TURTLE SKULLS.

A Retracted Turtles Head does also look like the Vulva Openings on the Derelict etc ;)

I also thought these Bio-Mechanical Turtle Ships could also Produce Eggs...  and i mean Eggs as in the ALIEN Poster and that these can be used for Different Things... include Source of the Black Goo, but they could also be used to EXPLODE and Create Worlds etc.....  more like mixing the COSMIC EGG with WORLD TURTLE meets HP Lovecraft meets HR Giger ;)

I think we can all come up with some ALIEN ways to have expanded on the Origins....  Certainly ALIEN ships with Brains is a Interesting One ;)

Be it the Engineers Tore the Brains Out or Re-engineered those Ships... thats also something that sounds interesting and very HP Lovecraft too ;)