Comments (Page 106)

We have the problem of what might please a majority (economically satisfying) and what would please (some) fans (even avid fans have different opinions about the franchise).

There are, at least, four things to consider in an eventual sequel:

* Much action (Aliens)

* More creepy atmosphere (Alien)

* Deeper questions (Prometheus)

* The story arc (Aliens continued the story of Alien; AC continued the story of P etc.)

Even James Cameron expressed doubt about killing off the main characters of Aliens in Alien 3. There was a special bond between Ripley, Newt and Hicks - a potential family.

So, do we want more episodic films without continuation of the story but only connection to the “Alien Universe” or do we want to see what happens to the main characters: David, Daniels, Tennessee, Ripley, Hicks, Newt?

“Anakainosis” roughly means “to think in a new way”. But often we want the same thing, e.g. things connected to tradition. Every year Santa Claus brings Christmas presents. A film, novel or short story usually have the same dramatic structure: exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, denouement.

But I think the most important question is if we want a continuation of the story and a denouement or do we want to leave this behind and search for answers to deeper questions within the “Alien Universe”?

You could have both, I suppose? :)

MonsterZero,

PRICELESSSSSSS - LOOOOOOOOOOOL

"Alien3 felt like episode 7 of season 2..the prison planet episode."

Christmas came early this year LOL please keep up the good work and deliver more presents!!!

" it was probably a wrong decision not to continue the story of Ripley, Hicks and Newt."

With Respect i dont agree, this would be a PANIC of Running Out of Ideas and Lack of Imagination.

HOWEVER.... there are a Number of Fans who was REALLY Excited about Blomkamps Alien V and Felt that it was INSULT and a Waste of Opportunity to go and KILL off Hicks and Newt (if i came on board during the Writing/Production of ALIEN 3 i would have had the Chest Buster come from Newt... that would be Shocking and the LOSS to Ripley and Hicks would Elevate their Characters.... i would have had Hicks be the ONLY Survivor as he is taken away on the USCSS Patna but you can then have HICKS go and VOW that he will do EVERYTHING to make sure NO ONE will get their Hands on a Xenomorph again.... so the Torch is Passed to Hicks) But ALAS!

As i was about to say.... Ripley and Eggs/Xenomorphs and the Queen are more Familiar and Associated with ALIEN Franchise to the General Public and so YES it could be that DISNEY could see this as the SAFE BET!

But WHAT kind of Plot do you have? And after WHAT do you do as Sequels?

I think that Blomkamps Alien V and Red Harvest Project could WORK.... but they DONT need to have any of the ALIENS Cast for it to Work.

@Chli

without trying to get Bogged Down in Speculation of Circumstances from 2094-2105 as its been Covered in other Topics (i mean No Disrespect as i would discus these in a Relevant Topic), i Feel the Relevance to this TOPIC is merely to Determine the Distances that a Engineer Juggernaught can Traverse per Year.

I think that we can Safely Assume that about 11 Months Past since the Juggernaught left LV-223 Atmosphere and Entered Planet 4 Atmosphere but as David said he has been on Planet 4 for 10 Years that may NOT be Exact to the Day... so lets say we are looking at 10-12 Month Ball-Park instead of 11.

Regardless HOW FAR it is to Planet 4 we can Assume via the Covenant Recycle Charges and Amount that Remain to Origae-6 that they Suffered the Neutrino Burst again about 11 Months into their Mission, and Planet 4 was a Few Weeks Further.  But again lets PLACE the Journey from Earth to Planet 4 within the 10-12 Month Ball Park.

From the ADVENT we are lead to the Signal Originated in a Area that is NOT FAR from where the Zeta Reticuli Binary System is Located in the SKY!  But we have to Bear in Mind that just because a STAR may seem close to another in the SKY then the Distances could be GREAT and so we CANT go and Assume Planet 4 is maybe 40-50LY, looking at the Drafts it could be at least 250LY Away.

Now the Covenant had Re-Charged/Suffered Damage a Few Weeks from Planet 4 and so the Covenant was Traveling in the Vicinity of the Zeta Reticuli System (Well a Area near the same Location in the SKY) so on its Course to Origae-6 it was Traveling Past this Area of the Galaxy/Star Charts.  And so the Covenant had taken say 11-12 Months (well maybe 45-50 Weeks) from Earth to Planet 4

While David had taken maybe 40-50 Weeks from when they Departed the Surface LV-223 to Planet 4 again we dont know HOW FAR it is 100% from LV-223 to Planet 4 but the Covenant would likely have Passed by the Zeta Reticuli System by say 10-20LY lets Estimate?  My Point being that the Covenant likely had a Extra 30-50LY to Travel within that Approx 11 Months than David had from LV-223 in about the same amount of Time.

Looking at that does this mean the USCSS Covenant is FASTER than a Engineer Juggernaught?  It really would depend on HOW LONG had the Juggernaught been Floating before Dr Shaw had Fixed David and then she was Placed in Cryo-Sleep and then HOW LONG had David been Planing and Studying the Engineers Ways before he SET COURSE to Planet 4..... did he take the SHIP at Full Speed?  Did he take it SLOW and the Scenic Route we just cant be 100% sure.

I think when we Consider the Engineers Plot and they have been Seeding Worlds for Many Millions of Years... Hundreds at Least...  and RS had said maybe the Juggernaught Technology is Millions of Years Old.

I FAIL to see how such a Advanced Race would NOT be able to Traverse Space at Greater Speeds than a Human Colony Ship.

But this does-not mean the Engineers Ships can Travel say Hundreds of Light Years per Year.... we know they have Cryo-Pods that sustained a Engineer for at Least 2000 Years... thats HANDY for Traveling say Thousands of Light Years if you Ships are NOT really so FAST

Regarding the other Galaxies i cant see them having these in the Navigation System if they CANT go to them, but maybe it takes them TENS of Thousands of Years or Hundreds of Thousands?

IF the Ships dont have any kind of Technology to OPEN say Wormholes or Gateways/Portals....  then i would SUSPECT that throughout the Galaxy there could be such THINGS that the Engineers can reach and USE to get to other Galaxies.

If so then do these Gateways require Engineer Technology to Activate?  If NOT then should a Human Ship discover such Wormhole/Gateway then WHO KNOWS to where they could Travel!  Which OPENS up the Franchise.

The Points i have Raised in Context to the Engineers are that i FEEL its Unlikely  and a Missed Opportunity that the ONLY Places connected to them and were they have BEEN/ARE is Limited to Planet 4, LV-223 and Earth and so within a 50LY from Earth or Potentially 250-300LY to Planet 4 thats a DROP in the Ocean of where i EXPECT the Engineers to be able to Explore.

I am not sure the Sequel to AC is so Relevant to the TOPIC as i was mainly looking at HOW/WHERE we can go in the Alien Franchise if we dont go to LV-223, Planet 4 or Origae-6

But the Process from AC to ALIEN seems to require at Least 2 Movies, it would seem David would be off to Origae-6 first..... in a Movie about A.I and Creation and NOT about the Xenomorph...  But the Engineers will return and be after David and there would be other Parties too...

It is likely the After-Math of that would give us WHERE our Derelict/Engineer Ship could come into Play.

What becomes of Daniels and Tennessee who knows... Daniels is a Problem for David shes Knows who he is... if he makes her Disappear then Tennessee could get Suspicious so its a BIT of a Pickle.!

What they should have done is have Daniels go into Cryo-Sleep and be TOTALLY unaware... as she goes Under then WALTER says Sleep Tight dont let the Bed Bugs Bite in Davids Accent and the Revelation is Revealed to the Viewer but Daniels is NONE the Wiser so they Wrote themselves into a corner with that ONE.

I cant see the Prequels being Finished... although i do have a WORK AROUND IDEA ;)  and YES it has NO DAVID!

The USM couldn't successfully clone Ripley 200 years post-Alien 3.  It's safe to assume the Company explored such an idea beforehand and similarly failed.

Well, David and Shaw have 5 days to collect things (extremely dangerous because of the lurking Deacon) and find the juggernaut. To get to the other juggernaut, they must pass through the pyramid so they must have seen something. Was it empty? Were there Engineer bodies scattered about with holes in their chests? Were there rooms with urns or perhaps with strange-looking eggs?

They leave LV-223 on the 1st of January and arrive at Planet 4 in December the same year. This is a time span of roughly 11 months. We don’t know how long the trip from LV-223 to Planet 4 took. We have to consider earning trust, how much food and water there is, and Shaw’s hair (which could be just something they didn’t care about when filming “The Crossing”). I can’t imagine them having the juggernaut on the ground for months, like a house, walking in and out with a hungry Deacon lurking about (it doesn’t matter if they don’t know about it).

If the juggernaut had been just floating about in space for, say, 10 months, what would be the point in putting Shaw to sleep when there is just 1 month left? Did the food supply suddenly run out? Also, you get the impression that David is alone for a long time (which he, sort of, points out himself) and during that time he learns about the ways of the Engineers.

As we have discussed before, we have a time span of about 18 years. During this time, the experiments of David’s should evolve and make their way to LV-426 in time for the Nostromo to arrive. David himself says that he is on his way to Origae-6 and he has about 2000 colonists and about 1100 embryos to experiment upon. He might, of course, stop by on LV-223 to refuel mutagen.

If we look at just the plot and the characters, it was probably a wrong decision not to continue the story of Ripley, Hicks and Newt. If we don’t focus on deeper questions, there is also a story to be told about what happened to Daniels and Tennessee and the rest of the colonists, or are we supposed to conclude that David murdered them all in his experiments?

@Leto

Absolutely there is ALWAYS a Market for the ALIEN Franchise beyond the Big Screen... this is where you can RISK things, and Offer Various Avenues that are all Expanded and dont have to Connect... Numerous Alternatives if you would.

I think in Terms of a Movie then its a GAMBLE... where do you GO? Would it Please Everyone?  And should a MOVIE be Made and BOMB or just Disappointment then it could be CURTAINS as far as Theatrically...

Do they RISK a Bigger Budget of $200-250M if this only brings back say $300-350M then it would NOT be deemed a Success and it would be DOUBTFUL they would Continue.. if it Fails to make $250M then i Feel its Curtains!

To Resurrect the Franchise i think DISNEY would Need to see a 200-250% Return... so a $200M they expect Box Office of say $450M+ to be Worthwhile to Consider MORE...

With a Lower Budget of say $80-120M would be Less Risk but it would LIMIT what you can do with Special Effects, Sets and A-List Stars.

This is WHY i have been Concerned they would PLAY SAFE.... and try to make a Alternative Alien 3 with Ripley back...... and Eggs and Queens... and IF this does not make 200% Min Return then its R.I.P to the Franchise..

Well for 15 Years before a Complete 100% Reboot!

But lets Wait and see what ALIEN DAY 2021 brings.. as well it seems we have a Project in the Works.. that WONT continue with the Prequels... and well lets say WONT have Ripley either!

Wait and See Game now... ;)

"Alien is an extremely difficult series to reinvigorate"

I would agree with this Especially if they want something more FRESH than say to go and Bring Back Ripley, and IGNORE say Alien 3 and Alien R and then what we get?  Oh the Company has gone to LV-426 and recovered the Derelict or some Eggs... and Ripley like "oh no they DONT i am gonna put a STOP to that" Very Original  YAWN!!!

The Prequels with Prometheus was NOT to everyone's Cuppa Tea.... the idea of Blomkamps got some Excited because they maybe FELT that PROMETHEUS was NOT a Worthy ALIEN Movie...  But thats the Point it was supposed to be SET in the same Universe but to STEER AWAY from ALIEN and Sequels would do something DIFFERENT!

In Hindsight i think FOX Needed to Invest, take a Gamble on TWO Movies, it seemed they was going to GO for Blomkamps Idea with Ridley Scott even to be  a Producer but they WANTED to get the Sequel to Prometheus out First and that was BOMB! of Sorts.

Blomkamps Idea could have worked... just DONT need to have Ripley in it.. shes DEAD!

I have said this OVER and OVER...  I think what they SHOULD have done was this...

Prometheus Sequel that would be Released First that would GO BACK to LV-223 they could Cast Fassbender as another David Clone (or have a New Android).... One that does-not have a Mind of its Own...    We basically have a more Action Movie that would be more Similar to Alien Engineers... We get more Clues/Answers to the Xenomorph Potential Origins we DONT have to have Xenomorphs but similar, maybe a FEW different Monsters... some Answers to the Murals and Frescos...

We can THEN go and CLOSE the Door to ALIEN and allow for another Sequel that goes with Dr Shaw and David to a FAR FAR FAR away world where we can Find out more about the Engineers and NOT be Shackled by ALIEN.  Thus giving us a Expanded Prometheus Universe that has LITTLE to do with ALIEN!

The ALIEN Franchise would NOT have been Finished.. such a Prometheus 2 like Alien Engineers would OPEN THE DOOR to other ALIEN Movies due to the knowledge of the Horrors the Engineers had Conducted on LV-223, inc Xenomorphs and Similar and we could ASK... ok so did any of this STUFF get Unleashed on a World?

If so then thats a AVENUE for a ALIEN Movie..

But... ALAS!

"If there were other juggernauts leaving LV-223 at the time of the outbreak with biological weapons aboard, where did they end up?"

I think this Depends on IF we Consider that AC is Canon.

*Have the Engineers used the Bio-Weapon we saw on LV-223 on other Worlds, even as a TEST?  If so then WHAT had become of these Worlds and WHERE are they?  This is a Avenue for a Story/Plot ;)

*Prior to the Outbreak had they Decided to Eradicate all Humans or Similar they have in the Galaxy and so maybe some Ships Left before the Outbreak had Started?  Or was their ANGER only with Earth in which case we know that NO SHIPS had Managed to Reach us so maybe the Outbreak had PUT a Stop to the Engineers Plans Totally?

Looking at prior to AC then YES at that Time we had RS go and Explain the Space Jockey, he indicated the Event Happened likely a Few Hundred Years after the Outbreak as something EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and Infected the Pilot, this Most Likely Happened prior to Leaving LV-223, but could have Happened shortly after Departure..

The Space Jockey knowing he was Infected had Set Course to Baron LV-426 to Quarantine the Bio-Weapon/Cargo.

IF we consider AC as Canon this would Indicate at some point in the Future between 2105-2122 then the Experiments of Davids are either being Taken to LV-223 to Study but Evolve and get to the Pilot who only makes it to LV-426..... OR we have  Davids Creations taken to LV-223 to be Evolved and  then the Derelict would LEAVE to go somewhere but ONLY gets as FAR as LV-426

Regardless of if we take AC as Canon, or Prometheus or IGNORE the Prequels.... then it does-not matter which we Consider, we have to ask WAS the Derelict the ONLY ship that had the Eggs?  We cant 100% Rule out that other Ships had them to REGARDLESS of what Scenario/Canon we are going for ;)

"the Engineers managed to get some DNA from this creature and concocted the mutagen from it?"

Certainly is Possible.... the Fresco and Mural where Interesting in Prometheus and IF we take a Look at Alien Engineers/Genesis then it seems to IMPLY that the Engineers back in that Draft had USED their Creation Tool on something they Encountered to go and Create/Experiment on Various Horrors.

In those Drafts it seems  the Holloway Morph was the ORIGIN to those Experiments.... when we get to PROMETHEUS then we can Speculate... and Wonder.. was the FRESCO what was the ORIGIN?

All Interesting things to maybe have had Answers.... where a Movie/Plot to LV-223 could have Provided instead of giving us Alien Covenant ;)

@Chli

Where do i START ;)  You raise Good Points i think a LOT of Problems came from the Decision with Alien Covenant...

IF they had gone with something like the Plot/Idea i had as to WHERE it would be that David and Dr Shaw go then these Conflicts would be Reduced.  Because i was taking them to a FAR FAR Place, like 10'000LY at least maybe even 50-60'000..... WHY maybe another Galaxy!

Going Further means maybe they DONT go and Arrive for a LONG TIME and the Events of Aliens/Alien 3 have Passed by the Time they ARRIVE... so any Aftermath could SPILL out to after the events of Alien Resurrection so you DONT go and Conflict the Franchise.

But then a Problem we also see and its NOT limited to the Prequels but the Prequels are more GUILTY is it seems they DONT go and Consider as to HOW the Plot could Effect the Future or Conflict/Contradict the Franchise.

"If the sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus is seeding Earth"

Ridley Scott said it does-not have to be Earth... so this could be at ANY Point and even another World... he had said this was JUST how the Engineers Seed Worlds and so at some point the Engineers would have done Similar on Earth, maybe Multiple Times and maybe they EVOLVED the Process ;)

But YES they would likely have to be Hundreds of Millions of Years OLD at the Very Least... likely Much Older.  And so its a Good Question to HOW COME their Technology has NOT really Advanced much in Millions of Years or the Engineers themselves!

"One problem with the Engineers travelling to other galaxies is, of course, the distances."

They could have WORM HOLES that maybe are Natural or Engineered at Certain Points in the Galaxy... Portals they can Access?  Maybe at the Center of the Galaxies?

Otherwise then YES it would take VERY LONG to get to other Galaxies but thats maybe WHY they have Cryo-Pods.  If the SHIP has Technology to Reach Galaxies in Short Time then Travel in our Galaxy would NOT take Long!

Looking at Planet 4 it seems Close to Zeta 2, it Certainly would seem its not Hundreds of Light Years.... this is a PLOT Convenience for the Covenant Plot.

However i dont think it took the Juggernaught say 11 Months...  It had taken the Covenant something near that to get to Planet 4 from Earth...  this would make the Juggernauts much SLOWER than the Covenant.

Dr Shaw had left the SOS/Warning Message saying it was January 1st 2094 we can maybe Assume this was WHEN they Left, but she could have SENT this LIKELY via the Lifeboat, then had set off on the ATV to go to GET another Ship.

The Crossing we see the Ship is Floating... David is in TWO Pieces and Dr Shaw has had some Hair Growth i would Estimate she had been on the Ship for 6-10 Months before her and David had SET the Course to Planet 4 and Dr Shaw was placed in Cryo-Sleep

We dont know for sure HOW FAR away it is to Planet 4 but its within a Year for the Covenant i dont recall any information is Given.   We have the Advent which places the Signal near the Zeta Reticuli system but with a Point in the SKY does not mean its close in LY to Zeta 2/LV-426.

Just Checked and IF we can take the Information from Alien Covenant Draft as Accurate then Planet 4 is over 250LY away.  But Considering that as Canon... means the Covenant is WAY more Quicker than the Nostromo and in the Time the Nostromo would go from LV-426 to Earth the Covenant would cover like 6X the Distance and YET is Older.

Anyway i am Babble On a bit... to the Point i would ASSUME the Juggernaught would reach Planet 4 in say 3-5 Weeks at the Very Most.

"Where have the Engineers been for the last 2000 years?"

This is a Great Point, after the Outbreak those who WISHED to have us Destroyed would maybe have been all KILLED (Maybe Bar the Last Engineer) or they had Decided to Abandon Earth and the USE of the Bio-Weapon.

They likely thought "Screw the Earth Humans... without our Help they WONT go and Advance and maybe we would even go Backwards and also Eventually Destroy ourselves"  In their Arrogance i think they would ASSUME we would NEVER go on to Advance to what we have and would remain as Technologically Advanced as we was 2000+ Years ago.

The Engineers could Visit Worlds that are Vastly FAR apart he had Indicated they Seed Worlds and Attempt to Reset/Destroy them then they would come back every Few Hundred Years.  It would be LIKELY that LV-223 and everything they was doing there had been ABANDONED.

And Earth was on the Naughty List where we are Abandoned and Left to ROT!   Why CARE about  us if they have maybe MANY other Worlds with Humanoid Creations of even Humans?  We cant RULE that out.!

@MonsterZero

We had similar PLOT for Alien Isolation

I am NOT sure they would WAITED say 57 Years to Investigate the Nostromo, i would ASSUME that at some point after NO-CONTACT they would either Conclude the Ship is LOST or maybe they had Investigated or some way they Discovered it was Destroyed Prior.

Ripley had left a LOG about the Nostromo and maybe this was Transmitted and Picked Up eventually so the Company would be AWARE of the Fate of the Nostromo...  Makes you Wonder if this was the case, as to IF or WHY NOT had they gone to TRY and find the Escape Shuttle (Narcissus) rather than just picking it up 57 Years after as it was Floating at the Outer Rim.  Regardless then NO soon as they recover Ripley then they would be AWARE of the Fate of the Nostromo.

Surely maybe someone Related could have wanted to know WHAT had Happened to their Family Member from the Nostromo but this is something that Alien Isolation had done with Amanda.

I think if we IGNORE the Prequels for a Moment, then looking at ALIEN and the 57 Years to ALIENS. And the Aftermath to both 2122 and 2179 then we have to Wonder would the Company simply just NOT take a Interest in going back?

Firstly to cover the Later Event.... its likely Patna picked up a Distress Message/Information from the Sulaco after the Incident that lead to the Survivors being Evacuated off the Ship.  And so it could be on a Intercept Course to the Sulaco before getting the Message from Fury 161 which lead to the Patna going to that place to ATTEMPT to Obtain the Specimen from Ripley.

After that was  BUST.... i think the USCSS Patna would surely go to LV-426 to Survey the Destruction of Hadleys Hope and Probe the Surface for signs of the Derelict to assess the Viability of the Ship and IF there is anything to Salvage.

IF not then surely at some-point the Company or others would go to Investigate LV-426..... Regardless of WHICH then IF this Proves to be a BUST then this Closes a Avenue to a Specimen and Potential Story/Movie.

If they do Attempt to Salvage something this can OPEN UP a Avenue to Explore (it seems this could be the ROUTE that Blomkamps Alien V had taken).

NEXT... we go to the Aftermath of ALIEN would the Company (or other) had SENT another Mission to LV-426?  Again this is whats implied with the Alien Isolation Plot.

But if the Games are NOT to be Canon, then i think when we look at the Damage to the Derelict in Aliens we have to ask HOW did this Happen?  Storms? Volcanic or Seismic Activity?  

I DOUBT IT.

Looking at the Damage to me it looks more likely to be either.

1) Damage from a Meteor Strike.

2) Damage from some Missile Strike (or Similar)

3) A Explosion from Inside maybe via a Attempt to BLOW UP the Derelict?

When looking at Option 3 this Provides a Avenue for a Movie, Comic or Game!

So there are Avenues to another Movie where they dont have to Continue/Connect the Prequels, where the dont go and Continue after Alien Resurrection and where they CERTAINLY dont have to Retcon anything and make Alien 3 onward NOT HAPPEN!

However... ONCE you apply the Prequels (or Reboot) then you GREATLY increase Avenues for another ALIEN MOVIE.

Firstly SILLY me when i said a few Times 100 Years when its Clearly 200 ;)

I think that INDEED its likely the Patna went to Intercept the Sulaco, i would NOT think that a Fire would Destroy the Entire ship but i would say for the sakes of Continuity i dont think there would be ANYTHING to Recover from the Sulaco.

Regarding Fury 161 then on that World there would have LIKELY been TWO Face Hugers we have to assume that Ripley was Infected in EEV.

And so INDEED somehow the Ripley DNA Sample was Obtained at some Point... likely NOT that Long after the events of ALIEN 3 (not like USM gonna go to Fury 161 some 200 Years latter for it). 

You would expect the Crew of the USCSS Patna would have done a Thorough Search of Fury 161 and you would Expect they would Discover at least ONE of the Face Huggers unless UNSEEN on Screen we have Ripley go ORDER the Destruction of them!

So in Context of the Franchise and Avenues for Continued Story/Plot after ALIEN 3 then we CANT 100% go Rule Out that Weyland-Yutani had NOT managed to Obtain a Face Hugger from Fury 161 to Conduct Experiments.

We have NO PROOF this had Occurred but that does-not mean it cant be Explored ;)

They didn't give. WY was bought by Wallmart and then became part of USM. In fact, this is one organization (or something like that). The only difference is that WY does not dominate now but obeys.

Why 200 years? Do not rack your brains over what the writers did not think about. It just sounds cool and big.

In any case - why did they find strange blood samples, but not a facehugger?

I assume that the W-Y Corporation meticulously searched Fiorina 161 in every nook and cranny for possible biological residues and facts about what happened? Wouldn’t they have found the remains of Bishop? I also assume that this is when they find Ripley’s blood sample in the med lab? This would make it 200 years until they decided to clone Ripley - by another organisation: USM (not W-Y).

What happened during these 200 years and what happened to W-Y?

As for USCSS Patna, it would seem that it was on its way to the Sulaco when, after receiving information about the pregnant Ripley, they headed for Fiorina 161 instead?

After finding the blood sample of Ripley, couldn't they have cloned Ripley immediately? I assume that the technology was available at the time? Why wait 200 years and why give (sell?) Ripley's DNA to another organisation?

"57 Years"

Cool name for a Alien tv series. 

Have the series focus on the Nostromo's disappearance.

Have a team of insurance investigators track down what happened.....There are still plenty of eggs on Lv-426 for them to find.

Pavonis Parker is searching for his dad (or at least his remains) ?

"The Nostromo Report" 

X-files type drama. (Must be thousands of odd sightings in deep space....most of them xeno related. )

If the sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus is seeding Earth, then the Engineers must have been around for more than 4,5 billion years. Wouldn’t they have developed more? Mankind has only existed for about 4,5 million years and we are soon populating Mars.

One problem with the Engineers travelling to other galaxies is, of course, the distances. If I remember correctly, it took David and Shaw about 11 months to travel to Planet 4 (which is not that far off). Are they using wormholes to other galaxies?

Where have the Engineers been for the last 2000 years? Were they confined to Planet 4? They never revisited LV-223 (I assume the snoozing Engineer would have been found) and they never revisited Earth. Why didn’t some other Engineers carry out the extinction of mankind?

We have the enigma of the Space Jockey. To make some sense of it all, it seems likely that an Engineer travelled from LV-223 around the time of the outbreak with the intention of wiping out mankind. He didn’t make it, though, since he was attacked by a facehugger probably from the cargo hold. He crash-landed on LV-426. If there were other juggernauts leaving LV-223 at the time of the outbreak with biological weapons aboard, where did they end up?

In order to make some sense of the xenomorph, it must be just one of many outcomes: Deacon, neomorph, ultramorph, xenomorph. The mutagen has the potential (or necessity) of creating these kinds of creatures. They are the bioweapon? That is why the “perfect” organism is portrayed on the wall in the Head Room? The question is, of course, if the mutagen “creates” the perfect organism, or, the perfect organism is out there somewhere and the Engineers managed to get some DNA from this creature and concocted the mutagen from it? If the latter is the case, then there might be a homeworld somewhere for the ancestor of the xenomorph?

Thanks S.M

Salvaging the Sulaco from the bottom of the ocean on Fury 161 might make a cool episode.

Bennet "Are we sure there is nothing on the Sulaco?"

Taylor "It's never been fully vetted sir"

Bennet "Send an ops team..."

When they go down to check on the Sulaco they find large stone Engineer heads. Fury 161 is a prison planet, the oceans are just used for fishing..never been mapped.

I absolutely agree with almost everything you say except for the last paragraph.

Alien franchise is alive and thriving.

There are 2 films released in each decade.

Alien in 79 and after 7 years - Aliens.

Alien 3 & R in 90s.

AvP & AvPR in 00s.

Prometheus and Covenant in 10s.

Plus - tons of comics, books and board & video games.

Plus - an active fan community. Creative - including.

Here are the facts - for now, the Alien franchise is doing better than ever.

My perspective is most movie franchise's feel played out in someway or another. Alien's glory days are well behind it. About 5 or 6 years ago my brother and I had observed nearly every major sci fi franchise had something in the pipeline. Everything from Alien, Predator, Terminator, RoboCop, Star Wars, Star Trek, Planet of the Apes, Riddick, Jurassic Park, Godzilla, BladeRunner, Independence Day and more all had something on the way. All seemingly promising these old series were back and here to stay. 5 or so years later, most of these series have once again gone dormant. Something we all have in common here is we all love the Alien franchise to varying extents. For a fact most of us will agree on 2 movies in the series. For a fact all of us will definitley agree on one movie, that being Alien.

Like I said to the guys on Alien Theory's discord, its an old franchise that has only produced two truely classic movies. The rest all have fans, but remain divisive. All I got to do is go through a ranking of David Fincher's films and see Alien 3 consistently ranked dead last with said site just saying it's a bad movie. Alien 3 may have been reexamined and somewhat redeemed among a certain portion of the fanbase, it however has not been treated with respect the same way Blade Runner has. Blade Runner was much like Alien 3 where studios interfered too much and the theatrical release suffered for it. Only in the decade that followed did Blade Runner eventually a merge as the classic it is renowned for today. Instead Alien 3 has the dubious reputation that truely killed Alien, a good amount of fans still hate it as well as hating every movie since. Critics and casual audiences don't care either. 

When you look at it from this perspective, Alien is an extremely difficult series to reinvigorate. Its now just an old movie to modern audiences who'll probably know it better from references in movies like Infinity War or Ready Player One than actually having seen it. Like I said, if Star Wars is officially a hard sell, then it's a even harder sell for Alien.

I think that there are OPTIONS to do a ALIEN Movie where we DONT have to Retcon or Reboot or bring back Ripley.

ALIEN is our First Introduction to the Franchise, and Special Order 937 came about some HOW and i think with the Prequels it may have SHOWN us HOW that came to be, and so the Company was AWARE of something on LV-426.

With ALIENS we go back to LV-426 some 57 Years and it seems the Company at Present have NO knowledge about the Derelict...  It is only when the Coordinators are SENT to Hadleys Hope that the Jordons go to Investigate that the FALL of Hadleys Hope begins to the Point that after Two Weeks the Company has Heard NOTHING.

Would the Company had just Abandoned trying to Investigate LV-426 after the Nostromo Mission?

If you consider the Prequels this would seem UNLIKELY unless they can Obtain Something from another Location that is Connected to the Prequels.

But i have brought this up before....

What Caused this Damage?

With Prometheus we saw the Juggernaught took a Good HIT and had Rolled on the Ground and YET it had NO SIGNS of Major Damage.

The Derelict we are led to that it Crash Landed and again it seemed Intact!

So with the Damage we see in ALIENS when the Jordons go to the Derelict, this is OPEN to Wonder as to HOW this Happened?

Another Plot/Story that would Eventually Conclude with a ATTEMPT to BLOW UP the Derelict with POWERFUL EXPLOSIVES could be HOW the Damage had Occurred.

The Result of this could have KICKED UP a lot of Dust and Debris etc so they would ASSUME they had Destroyed or Rendered the Derelict as VOID!

There could have been a COVER UP to Erase All the Information about LV-426 and the Derelict... that when the Company had began to Build Hadleys Hope they was NOT aware of the Derelict.

So again there is a Potential Avenue for a ALIEN Movie.

There are others... the Franchise does-not have to be DEAD and it does not have to Resurrect Ripley again.

Certainly SM

I think something to remember is that some EVENTS could have Happened that we had NOT seen on Screen.

Such as if Ripley was aware they FOUND a Face Hugger she would likely WANT to have it Destroyed so the Company cant get their Hands on it ;)   While this is NOT shown it could be used as a Explanation that there was NOTHING they could gain... not a DROP of DNA...  Until 100 Years Latter when the USM go and Captain a Specimen from Cloning Ripley.

I think Regarding the Sulaco if we only go by Movies, then we know there was a FIRE, would it have Caused the Destruction of the SHIP?  Who knows... 

It Certainly would have Caused Damage to Part of the Ship, and so they could have it that the Area where the Eggs where had Suffered so much Fire Damage that their is NOTHING to be Obtained!

I think that after the EVENTS of Alien 3 at some point be it Days, Weeks, Months or Years... surely they would SEND out something to Survey LV-426 and see if anything can be Salvaged.

Just because 100 Years latter they Resorted to using the DNA of Ripley to obtain a Specimen...  This does not mean that something could have been HAD from LV-426 or some place else...

But IF they do Obtain something between 2180-2220 for Instance then in the AFTERMATH then what ever they had Obtained would surely be DESTROYED with NO Trace for them to Obtain anything else.

Regarding the Xenomorph....

I think regardless of HOW it ENDS up on the Derelict and WHO would have Created It....   can we really just ASSUME that the Derelict was the ONLY such Ship that was LOADED with the Cargo?

We see the Engineers have been messing about with STUFF on LV-223 and we have at least 5 of those Complexes, do all of them Contain the SAME BLACK GOO?  Do all of them have the same Mural/Fresco?

Or could EACH of them have a Different Variant of Experiments?

We know they LIKELY had Results... and so would such Beasts had been Stored and Transported to some Place?

We have seen the Black Goo was able to Mutate Life and Create Horrors we can Draw some Connection to the Xenomorph with... Hammerpede, Trilobite/Deacon and Neomorph.

What becomes of LV-223 from 2100-2150?

Is this the ONLY place the Engineers had Experimented on and Created Horrors?

Is Planet 4 the ONLY place that has suffered a Bombardment of the Bio-Weapon?

So there could be other EGGS or related Horrors out in the Galaxy, that are YET to be Discovered.

I think the MAIN way they Painted themselves into a Corner is that its Logical that we would Eventually go and Connect to ALIEN.  Which means that Eventually we would see Davids Creation become Evolved somewhat and END UP on a Engineer Ship that would END UP in the Zeta 2 System.

Likely had been going to LV-223 or Leaving LV-223 before the Space Jockey gets a BAD CASE of Indigestion ;)

"Well, as for Engineers, there seem to be none left"

I would doubt it, we have had Ridley Scott suggested that Engineers would RETURN to Planet 4 and so in his Mind and Plans for the Prequels there are MORE of them out there.

We have to bear in mind that the PLOT of the Engineers opens up the Franchise to a HUGE Scale... BIGGER than Star Wars and Star Trek....

*The Engineers have been around for at LEAST many Millions of Years.

*It is Unlikely that the Earth is the ONLY place that they Seeded and Visited.

The Engineers Navigation System showed other Galaxies, if i Remember right i recalled about 9, but it could be a bit more or less.  IF they have these in their Navigation Systems i think it means they can TRAVEL to other Galaxies and if they have say 7-10 in that Navigation System they could have MORE than that... as FAR as what they can Visit.

IF they can Traverse to other Galaxies then surely they can Reach anywhere in our Galaxy.  The above Image i have taken a Section that is 3700LY give or take and ZOOMED it in as this Area is where the Earth is and bound to be where the Franchise took place... The TINY RED DOT is what Covers a 50LY Area...

THIS is just a Needle in the Haystack to the Engineers.

"Big Things have Small Beginnings"

The Franchise inc Prequels may have Confined us to say 50LY but the PLOT of the Engineers can Expand to a IMMENSE amount of the Universe, so many Potential Worlds and Races and Horrors.

It would be WASTED to just go and say.. ok Engineers on LV-223 Gone, Engineers on Planet 4 Gone... NO more Engineers.

@MonsterZero

RS did say the ALIEN Franchise could be like where the Star Wars and Star Trek are NOW.. and people LAUGHED at his Comment.

However... what if he meant in Context to if we have these Engineers who for Hundreds of Millions of Years have been Creating Life across the Galaxy and they can also GO TO other Galaxies...  then that means SO MANY WORLDS..

What Races, are all of them Engineer Creations? What Conflicts?  What Horrors?

With the Prometheus Plot we LET the Franchise out of that Small RED Box!

It would be  CRIME for them to think SOD that.... lets go back to LV-426 and the Derelict and PUT the Franchise back in that TINY BOX..... more so if its a OH! and Ripley will LEAD the Charge because Alien 3 had NEVER Happened.

The Franchise has the Potential to be BIGGER than the Xenomorph and Ripley... just have they got the BALLS anymore?

Oh anyway MonsterZero my POINT is that within the Revelation of the Engineers, then the ALIEN Franchise could Expand to Offer just as MANY would be Races as Star Wars and Star Trek ;)

The Sulaco has a number of fates depending on whether you take the novelisation, Alien 3 - The Gun, the Colonial Marines Tech Manual, Aliens Infestation, Aliens Colonial Marines, or the first comic book series into account.

I generally go with the novelisation - it was damaged by the fire and an impact with an empty rogue EEV - but otherwise continued back to Gateway.

For the Patna, I go with it being a bust and they found nothing other than Ripley's blood samples.

So where is the Sulaco in all this? Did the fire cause her to burn up in the atmosphere?  

I'd think enough fans would know what the Sulaco is/was..maybe make a series about her.

Yeah Big Dave! I Would love a tv mini series! Build a foundation.

Alien3 felt like episode 7 of season 2..the prison planet episode.

A:R episode 4 of season 3. The military one.

Alien Covenant  a two part season 5 finale.

Alien, Aliens, Prometheus seemed like movies to me.

If Star Trek and Star Wars can do both tv and the big screen.....then Alien can to!(along with Predator)

Well, as for Engineers, there seem to be none left. All Engineers on LV-223 died because of the outbreak (the last one thanks to Janek’s sacrifice) around the time of Christ. David exterminated the rest of them on Planet 4, which was their homeworld. In Prometheus, we are shown that the Space Jockey is, or rather was, an Engineer. We have also been told what they were up to so there seems to be nothing more to explore about the Engineers.

We have also been told that David created the xenomorph because he wanted a “wolf” to avenge everybody who had wronged him (mankind) and have the power over the galaxy. So there is nothing further to explore there either.

So, it seems they have painted themselves into a corner . . .

Absolutely MonsterZero  as i mentioned in another Thread the Characters are what can MAKE/BREAK a Movie.

I think with ALIEN it was a Small Cast and a Slow Build Up, as in General its about the Character and Background and also the amount of TIME that is Spent on a Character, the Latter in a Movie a Character is Killed or in Jeopardy the more we have a Connection.

So my point being with say ALIENS if Hicks was Killed during the First Encounter with the Hive we would likely be Meh!  But if he say Died to Allow Newt and Ripley to Escape to the Dropship then it would have more Effect on us.

With ALIEN i feel less of a Loss for Kane and Brett compared to the others, again likely as they NEVER got as much Screen Time plus both kind of let Curiosity Kill the Cat..... thats NOT to say they was not Good Characters though.

With Prometheus i kind of could Connect with Dr Shaw and Janek but the REST as like Meh!

With Alien Covenant for me i felt more of a Loss/Connection with Faris, Oram and Karine, maybe a Small amount for Lope and Rosey.

The Rest i was like Meh!

I think when your making a Movie that is connected to others as in it is Part of a Franchise then for it to Really Work you Need to have NOT ONLY some Good Strong Characters but a Set-Up that some of these Characters will Return in a Sequel.

This is WHY maybe some who have worked on a Idea for a ALIEN Movie (Blomkamp, Hill and Giler) think about how Characters may not have worked in the Prequels and KNOW that with Ripley she was a Established Character we are Connected with and so they think that your BEST to go and Resurrect her Again!

I dont think you have to do that... but you can use the RIPLEY Connection with a Good Plot Idea.... a Great Example is Amanda Ripley and the PLOT behind her (Searching for what Happened to her Mother) If we NEVER had the Game and the Sequel Comic Series... then SUCH a Plot may have Worked as a MOVIE.

PS: I think that with a TV Series you have more TIME to Introduce and Build on Characters...  and so a 6 EP TV Series with a Budget of say $30-40M would surely be able to PULL something Decent Off... provided the Plot, the Characters and Execution is Right.

I think when looking at something to PULL in the Viewers to make a Connection to Characters then what Alien Covenant was about and Raised by Wolves could have worked...

And NOPE i am NOT talking about Robots!  But in regards to a Colony Mission to a World they HOPE to make a New Home but they Discover the Place has a Horror in store for them.

If we say NEVER got Alien Covenant the Movie but they did a TV Series that was based on the USCSS Covenant and we have the Ship arrive at Origae-6 but discover that Origae-6 has some Horror from either Xenomorph Eggs being taken to this World, or something the Result of a Black Goo Bombardment or Spillage.... then i think maybe something like this COULD have Worked.

Even if by the 2nd Episode we see some of them Explore a Outer Region and Discover some Broken Urns.... then on their way back we see ONE of them tread on a Spore and then we get the Neomorph Infection.

As you move Forwards... eventually we see another Neomorph event where it has Captured someone and we see them Cocooned and Turning into a Egg.

You could eventually show from the Egg comes some kind of Face Hugger and we get another Beast that is Different to the Neomorph a little, and something Vaguely like the Xenomorph.

By that i think the Covenant Mission was a Interesting Plot, if it had Discovered a World that had been Bombarded in the Past i think it could have worked...  the Neomorph was Interesting and to had Expanded on it and show it Egg Morph someone to Create something a little more Familiar with the Xenomorph and that we have Evidence of Urns from Prometheus... this would have Helped to make a Connection to Prometheus, and to ALIEN by showing HOW via a series of events you can get something SIMILAR to the Xenomorph Egg and Organism.

But you cant really go and do such a PLOT now as well its been done in Alien Covenant, but then WHAT kind of Plot has NOT been done in the Franchise?

Leto: You don't understand, this series isn't what we thought it was. I was wrong. We were so wrong. We must forget about it!

Forum: Think of all we can learn from it! It's a the chance of a lifetime! We must see it!

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....

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Leto: Final report of the Alien franchise. The films and their legacy are gone. If you're receiving this transmission, don't try to get into streaming. There is only boring chatter, cheap cg effects and no place for space sci-fi here now, and I'm leaving it behind. It is New Year's Day, the year of our Lord, 20##. My name is Leto, the last survivor of the Alien franchise. And I am still hoping.

Holy crap! lot of good ideas!

My two cents:

The crew of the Nostromo was my world. RS made them every bit as important as the loss of Earth itself.

ALIEN: The lives of everyone on Earth or the Crew of the Nostromo? Nostromo. Sorry Earth.

Aliens: The lives of the Colonial Marines, Newt, Ripley or Earth? Earth loses again.

Alien3: Didn't care about a single character. Gonna choose Earth every time.

Alien:R: Earth without a doubt.  Felt sorry for the Newborn...Felt like it got a raw deal. Death to the rest.

Prometheus: Earth all the way...Has to be less dullards on that planet then on the Prometheus.

A:C Earth all the way. Covenant crew will not be missed. (If it turned out the Covenant crew was a bunch of escaped crazies it would make the movie more believable.) 

I just want to care about the characters again and where the monsters have to deal with the humans. I never thought the crew of the Nostromo were the victims. They were proactive, as with Newt and the marines...Aliens3 tried this but I didn't care enough about the characters. A:R? Lol! Victim central. Run away!

Prometheus and A:C? Coeds stumble in to a haunted house and get slaughtered. Poetic justice.

"They also have a preference to see a Colonial Marine story to which I also said no"

To be Fair i think as a TV Series then a Colonial Marine Story could be worth a Gamble.  However it depends as some Fans may Expect that such a TV Series would have to be about the Marines going down to deal with Xenomorphs.

We have the Impression that ALIENS was the Marines First Rodeo with the Xenomorph and well after ALIENS do we assume the Derelict is TOAST!

The Colonial Marines would surely be Involved in more stuff than Xenomorph Cleaning!

I think maybe a TV Series in the ALIEN Franchise about a Exploration Mission or Research where they Uncover something similar to the Xenomorph could work.  Some of the Anniversary Shorts were Interesting... so something like this but based on ONE Plot that covers say 6 Episodes with a TV Show you can Build Up Characters more, so you can have the viewers be more Involved and Fearful of their Losses.

If you are going to do that then you have to ask some Fundamental Questions.

*Do they Encounter some Xenomorphs if so HOW if the Derelict is the ONLY ship those Eggs are on... unless we go to Planet 4 or LV-223 which i doubt.

*Is there another World that other Engineer Ships with Eggs had been too?

*Is there some World where the Engineers came into Contact with a Ancestor of the Xenomorph who the Engineers then based their Experiments from?

*Are there Worlds that the Engineers had Bombarded with the Black Goo and what Horrors could be there?

OR... can you do a ALIEN TV Series that has NO Connection to Xenomorphs or Related Organisms or anything from LV-223 or other Horrors the Space Jockey/Engineers are involved with?

I say YES if its a Expanded Universe/Spin Off....  but if you USE a ALIEN: Prefix then it would be Expected to have Xenomorph Connections or Connections to the Engineers, Black Goo etc!

The same thing goes with ALIEN Movie it would be Expected to have Xenomorphs or something that is Connected.

"To argue that the lack of weapons increases the fear factor is academic nonsense"

Well that is your Opinion and i Disagree with it, i can see what you mean in that give Amanda a Pulse Riffle and 30 Shots would she still be able to KILL the Xenomorph or get Killed?   But then what if she had 10 Xenomorphs to Fend Off then the Weapon would be of Little Use!  (Forgive me if thats NOT what you meant).

I think if you was in a Situation say your Office Block has been Invaded by 5 Terrorists armed with Knives and a few Guns.... If you had access to say 3 Assault Riffles that you can Arm 3 work Colleagues you are maybe NOT going to feel Quite as Threatened and Fearful because you have Protection.

But this could Lead you or a Colleague to Feel Confident to Confront the Threat and maybe END UP getting yourself Killed anyway.

If we had a Mutated Pathogen that Turned people into Zombies i am sure the more Weapons and Type of Weapon would Certainly reduce the Worry about your Safety.  This does not mean you go Gung Hoo on the Streets Shooting Zombies... its better to have a Weapon and NOT need it, than to NEED a Weapon but have None.

When i have Played Survival Horror Games then the Tension and Stress and Panic hits more when your LOW on Ammo or have only your Hands/Feet or a Crude Hand Weapon to Defend yourself.

"Claiming that smart characters who understand the situation reduce fear and threat?"

I dont think i made that Claim...

What i was saying is that the Viewer will get more Fear, Concern and Tension if a Character they can Connect with gets Killed or nearly Killed... when you had Characters we DONT care about like Milburn then when they Die it has NO impact on us.

The Aesthetics of Most Monsters/Killers alone are NOT enough to cause Fear to many nowadays.  Its the Build Up and HOW they Attack and then HOW WELL the Characters/Victims are Written so we can Feel for their Survival.

A Jason and Myers Movie where they go to a Carnival/Fair and just go around KILLING like 15+ People is NOT really going to be Scary!

Only to those who are Squeamish to Gore and these Folk would have been Freaked out by say the Neomorphs in Alien Covenant!

I think going FORWARD then there is ONLY so much Mileage you can get out of the Xenomorph Alone and Especially in HOW we have seen it Portrayed... you also DONT need to Base the Franchise around Ripley!

I think that Exploring the Space Jockey and WHO they are and WHAT they are Involved in is the WAY to Progress the Story.. and Franchise.

It appeared Prior to the Prequels that the Space Jockey was Connected to the Xenomorph, and so we had to LOOK at WHAT this Connection could be.... but then AFTER you have made that its WHAT NEXT?

This depended on WHAT role the Xenomorph had, a Discovered Organism the Space Jockey used as a Weapon or Attempted to Experiment with... or even had Created via Experiments does kind of LIMIT you because UNLESS the Xenomorph is UPLIFTED beyond a Killing Machine or Space Ant then your NOT going to get much Millage from it.

So you would have to TRY something NEW and well the Space Jockey is something that was NEVER covered after ALIEN.

So the Bigger Potential was to look at WHO the Space Jockey are and their Agenda and WHY they had those Eggs.

*What Conflict was they in for them to WANT to use them to Destroy?

*Where they merely Explorers who had came Across the Eggs and if so... WHAT would have been their Intentions with them?  Or had they had NO knowledge of what they was Dealing with?

*Are the Space Jockey Enslaved to go and Drop these Eggs Off to Worlds... IF so then by WHO and WHAT do the Space Jockey Gain?

Some of this Potential was LOST when we got ALIENS as the Xenomorph became Portrayed as something that maybe could have been some Invasive Species that are like Space Ants... or merely a Engineered Weapon that would BEHAVE as such and in doing so its Need and HOW it would Procreate would make it Devastating to a World its Unleashed on!

Prior we had the Starbeast and its Plot that NEVER made it to ALIEN... if the Xenomorph had been Expanded to follow that Plot then it may have Offered more Options.

Anyway regarding the Space Jockey when we got the Prequels they had Evolved to become our Engineers and the Creation Plot... this OPENS up the Franchise for Expansion but after Alien Covenant then the Door to that is maybe CLOSED!

So thats WHY we are in a Pickle as to WHAT do they do NEXT?

There is a Project in the WORKS... we should Find Out more Certainly by Alien Day unless the Project gets Canned!

Its a Question of IF they are working on a Project then WHAT are they thinking of and CAN it get the Franchise back on Track?

To be Honest i dont think we have had a SOLID Script that went into Production since ALIENS. I am not a fan of when things go WRONG you just Scrub Away and come up with something else, and then when that goes WRONG you Repeat.  I always think you  can try and Rectify something but then that does take Hard Work and you run the Risk of Further Regrets....  I think regardless what they do its going to be HARD to get the Franchise back to Please most NEVER-MIND to make a Profit.

Regarding the Prequels then YES when you get a Announcement of them doing a Movie that would act as a Prequel of Sorts you are going to be Expecting TWO things for Certain.

1) Clues or Answers to how the Xenomorph came to be connected to the Space Jockey?

2) Clues and Answers to WHO the Space Jockey are and WHY they had those Eggs?

You could maybe also Expect that to Include.

A) Origins of WHERE the Xenomorph came from or Certainly Clues.

B) More information about WHO the Space Jockey are and WHAT is their Agenda.

You could EXPECT but its NOT something thats Necessary to go and have the Explanation to the Space Jockey/Derelict Event and even SHOW IT!

When it came down to the Prequels its NOT as Clear Cut as some may think, it was a Progress of Evolution and Change.

The Inception of the Idea (Alien 01 The Master Narrative) seemed to have the Emphasis on the Space Jockey and their Agenda more than the Xenomorph being the Center Stage.  This is where our Engineers Plot was Born.

When we got to Spaights Drafts that had been leaked so Alien Engineers and Alien Genesis then the PLOT was about a LOT of things that Prometheus had touched on, only that it also DEALT in more Detail with what the Engineers were doing in their Bio-Weapon Facilities.

It did Contain more Clues to ALIEN and it did Offer more about the Origins and Purpose of the Xenomorph and it introduced us to a Variety of Xenomorph related Beasts.

At some point the Powers that Be had felt that this Plot was to ALIENY and that the other Parts of the PLOT were NEW and a Change and something you could EXPAND on in Sequels.  So they Decided to TONE down those Alieny Elements and Remove a lot of DNA from the Xenomorph as then you had more Screen Time to Flesh Out the other Aspects of the PLOT.

You see they MUST have Concluded that IF they had given us Alien: Engineers and revealed the Xenomorph and its Origins then its a case of WHAT NEXT?

Once you know HOW and WHEN and WHY the Xenomorph had came to be and the Derelict Event then where do you go?

To ALIEN?  but they saw Scope to make more Connected Movies to the Prequel Idea, and so ONCE you reveal the Xenomorph and its Origins do you make more Sequels that are about the XENOMORPH?

They Felt that the other Elements would be HOW you take it Forwards as it OPENS up another Plot... the Engineers who are they, where did they Come from? Who Created them as well as to maybe introduce other HORRORS that they could have Created... rather than to go back to Xenomorphs.

So they saw that we had seen the Xenomorph over and over and maybe they could TRY something NEW and Different and so began the Changes to we got to Prometheus.

The Problem is they TONED down the Clues too Much and their was NOTHING that was Relatable to the Xenomorph... well you had the Hammerpedes but all we saw was ONE attack Milburn.   We had the Trilobite and Deacon but this Essentially would be like ALIEN if it Ended with Kanes Son shooting across the Table and Escaping and Role Credits!

In Hindsight for the MOST Part i dont think it Needed the Xenomorph it just Needed something Similar with enough Clues to make us go...AH!... so thats maybe how the Xenomorph came to be!

Slightly to much Ambiguity and no Real Xenomorph replacement was a Problem... when you look at the Number of Monster Deaths and Screen Time... then Prometheus had CUT DOWN too much...

It was Fifield who did MOST of the Killing and he was JUST nothing really Related to the Xenomorph...  THIS was NOT the Case in Spaights Drafts!

Regarding Spaights Draft it was Flawed.. I had to Question how much of a FAN was Spaights of the ALIEN Franchise and how much did he know!

Some have seen it as a Direct Prequel so its Clear as Day how Spaights Story Ended and we got to ALIEN... i would ask those to go READ his work again and WATCH the First Movie again and you will see they CANT Connect.

The GREAT thing about his Work in regards to Closure to the Xenomorph is that it was NOT as Ambiguous to the Connections, and we had our Xenomorphs but we also had TWO more Variants and you can add the Hammerpede and a much more Xeno-DNA Fifield to that..

What we should have GOT from that Draft is it seemed to show these Engineers were our Creators and they had Visited us and Evolved us.... but at some point they Decided that we was a Problem and they had a Facility they had Experimented on something they Encountered (likely the Holloway Infection) and from this they had Created 8 Varieties of Monster of which the Xenomorph was ONE...  to be USED as Tools of Destruction.

The KEY to their Horrific Creations was using their Creation Tool on some Organism that they USED its Traits to Create the Various Organisms they were Storing on the Ships.

I think that in HINDSIGHT they made TWO errors!

1) Too much was Toned down for Prometheus it Needed to have the Balance in Xenomorph like Monsters and Clues to the Creation...  Alien Engineers maybe had too much... but Prometheus had FAR not enough.... you Needed like a Middle Ground....

Then they could have Closed the Door to ALIEN.... and we could have gone where Dr Watts (Shaw) and David would go and find out more about the Engineers.

2) Made a Sequel to Prometheus where a Mission to LV-223 would go and Uncover more Clues, more Monsters closer to the Xenomorph.... so Basically a Movie that would be Based Around the stuff from Alien Engineers that NEVER made it to Prometheus.

Then they could have Closed the Door to ALIEN.... and we could have gone where Dr Watts and David would go and find out more about the Engineers.

Agree.

The films formula for me:

Alien: Engineers = xenomorph + story about xenormorph + engineers + story about engineers + strong science.

Prometheus is not different film.

Prometheus = Alien: Engineers - xenomorph - story about xenomorph - story about engineers - 50% of engineers - strong science.

So, Prometheus is just a small part of the Alien: Engineers.

Yes, the reason for (some of us) wanting a retcon is that they did a really sloppy job on the prequels (scripts). I think the franchise would have been secured if they had chosen Spaihts’ script instead of Lindelof’s. The audience expected and wanted to see the alien creature. Spaihts’ script was much scarier with plenty of time for the neomorph (and also some time for the xenomorph). But he also introduced the Engineers (who didn’t create but bred the xenomorph). If Scott had followed Spaiths’ script, the reception would have been different and he wouldn’t have needed to force these things into Alien: Covenant.

Focus also changed during the prequels. From the beginning, the focus was on the xenomorph. In Prometheus, the Engineers were the focus, and in Alien: Covenant it was David (a synthetic).

In Prometheus, they don’t tell us that the Engineers created the xenomorph but in Alien: Covenant they do tell us that David did. Apart from ruining the mystery, it’s almost impossible (given the timeline and the fact that the Derelict looked ancient and the space jockey looked like a fossilised skeleton) that David could have placed the eggs in the cargo hold of the Derelict.

"If you could Find a Pulse Riffle and take out the Xenomorphs like in ALIENS and some of the Games then you would LOOSE that Fear Factor!"

Unfounded bs. Leave a character unarmed in the face of danger or give him a weapon and let him fight back - it all depends on how you do it.

If you give a character a weapon, but leave the threat at the same level, then it is likely that you will screw up. But if you raise the ante and increase the threat in proportion to the weapon, you will succeed.

There are a lot of games, movies, ect. - where the characters are armed to the teeth and still in an inferior, vulnerable position.

On the contrary - it increases the fear factor - increases the level of threat and tells you that the weapons will not solve your problem.

To argue that the lack of weapons increases the fear factor is academic nonsense. An empty theory, which is said by people who do not know how everything works in practice.

Worse still - how far can we go with this? Claiming that smart characters who understand the situation reduce fear and threat? Is it worth praising the dullards who do not see the danger in front of their noses up close? Is Millburn or Oram playing on the fear factor? NO!

When it comes down to Scare People!

I think that apart from Cheap Jump Scares that even a Kiddy Halloween Cartoon can Pull Off... then to TRULY go and Scare people is HARD to do nowadays.

You can Gross People out with GORE but that maybe not going to Terrify them... you can Disturb them with something Shocking that would Work Better.

Imagine in Alien 3 the Alien came from Chest Bursting our Newt that would have been Shocking!  The thing that makes things Scary Really is the Fear and Worry and Concern for the Cast of a Movie... but for this you have to get the Characters Right!

You could Worry and Fight for Ripley, Newt and Hicks in ALIENS but with AVPR well No-One cared about the Lives of the Cast as the Characters just was not Developed and Poorly Executed.

Regarding Alien Isolation its Scary because it places you at the POV and you have NO Weapons etc, so you find the Xenomorph your DEAD... and so you have HIDE and its the being Found or Sporting the Xenomorph and Quickly having to Fine a place to HIDE that makes it Scary well its Panic Stations..

If you could Find a Pulse Riffle and take out the Xenomorphs like in ALIENS and some of the Games then you would LOOSE that Fear Factor!

The ONLY ways your gonna make the Xenomorph Scary is use it from the Shadows, but its more so about your Characters being Totally out of their Depth with NO WAY to really Dispatch the Horror with Ease... but for this to WORK you have to Build Up the Characters to CARE about them.

Or have some Sinister Antagonist who is Placing the Characters in Peril and using the Xenomorph to Commit Horrific Acts! 

Or you UPLIFT the Xenomorph beyond a Mindless Killing Machine or a Space Ant!   so it becomes Sinister, Tormenting!

But again those will ONLY work if you can CARE about the Characters.

"You have to understand that what bored the fan might be a breath of fresh air for the casual viewer"

I think LETO thats a Good Point, the Die Hard Fans may have wants and likes and so are Disappointed with some Alien Movies and the Directions they took.

The Real Die Hard Fans do only make a SMALL % of the Box Office, and so Marketing something that would PULL them in is maybe how you have to do it... but i would say that Alien Covenant was kind of just that!

I think ninXeno426 hits the NAIL on the Head... well Miss Vickers more so... "a King has his Reign... then he Dies"

Some Franchises have their RUN.... a Good Run, but then the more you go back to it then the Interest goes away!  The Terminator Franchise may still make Money from Merchandise, Games and Comics but THEATRICALLY its a Gamble... i think the ALIEN Franchise has hit that same WALL.

We have seen some Reboots that just Failed to Live Up to the Originals..... they are always going to be Compared to the Originals.

Robocop, Total Recall, Nightmare on Elm Street... they did not give that Nostalgic Feeling and Failed to be as BIG a HIT as the Originals with a New Generation.. and so NONE of these will get a Sequel!

But to be fair i dont think any of them was BAD, yes they was NOT as Good as the Original but thats always going to be the Case!

Go and Remake ALIEN and you will be Hard Pushed to better the Original well as far as HOW people would accept it.

sometimes you do manage to SUCCEED the Planet of the Apes Reboot was Very Good and a Success... yet the First Attempt in 2001 never got a Sequel it was deemed to not be worthy of ONE, yet it was NOT a Bad Movie.

The IT remake was also a Success but again if they made a IT Part 3 and Part 4 they run the Risk of going to FAR and it NOT doing as well.

Halloween 2018 was Decent, but if they Churn out a few Sequels to that i doubt it can Maintain the Success.

Threes a Crowd... and so sometimes once you have made 2-3 Movies in a Franchise you then Leave it alone!  As it Mostly goes down HILL after that.

Back to the Future Reboot anyone?  That could be a Cash Grab and could make Money but then it could also be a FLOP and Tarnish the Originals...   Or maybe a Back to the Future Part 4 and bring the Gang back... again it would take something Special to do Justice to the Originals and so your BEST to leave it alone.

Maybe its a case of doing something NEW.... sometimes that works... AVATAR a Example.

Which i think its WHAT they was doing with the Prequels, especially Prometheus... something NEW that is SET in the same Universe that would STEER AWAY from ALIEN and i think Ridley Scott was right.... HOWEVER.. when you kind of make a Prequel which it was as it Covered the Space Jockey... you as with any kind of Prequel/Origin Story you are at the RISK of NOT living to the Expectations of all the Fans.

"I am surprised by the lack of ingenuity here. We know practically nothing about the engineers. There are limitless possibilities"

I think that was NOT the case with Ridley Scott and where he seemed to want to take us with a Prometheus Sequel, but such a PLOT is BOLD but with so much Potential its HARD to work out on HOW your going to expand it which is WHY they likely Found it Hard to come up with a Draft they was Pleased with...

Which in PART lead to a Change from Steering Away from ALIEN to actually making a Set of Movies that will BRING US BACK to ALIEN and give us the Answers to ALIEN and the Xenomorph...   But we know that NEVER worked out well.

So NOW they are in a Pickle and it seems they wish to ABANDON the Prequels... but its a Good Question to see if they have any Ingenuity if its a case of we NEED to bring back Ripley and Continue with the Xenomorph as we had seen in the Quadilogy then i think that shows Desperation and Lack of Imagination and Risk!

But you could say the Prequels where a attempt at something Different and Curve-balls and a RISK that never paid off.

To answer your Comment Black Ant...

I agree we should TRY some Ingenuity which is what i would do, and with the Idea i proposed would be as such, while the First Adventure would leave some OPEN ENDED Clues it would leave it for Sequels to then Elaborate on them and Answer them.

You see here is what i was thinking there seemed to NOT be so much Ingenuity  with the Quadilogy apart from ALIEN R as it pushed the idea of Hybrids, of what Experimenting on the Xenomorph DNA could lead to.

But the Movie had its Critics and it was Flawed... so they HIT a Wall as far as thinking HOW do we Continue.. we did have Ridley Scott and James Cameron thinking about doing a ALIEN Project...  both wanting to go to the Xenomorph Homeworld, with RS more looking at WHO would have made the Xenomorph and WHY....

But we got AVP and then AVPR which kind of Tarnished the Xenomorph.

So when they was looking at HOW to revisit the Franchise at First it seemed like some Ideas of a Sequel to Aliens was in Mind (maybe not a Direct One) but then they decided to go about with a Prequel, which in Part would Explore the Origins of the Xenomorph and WHO was the Space Jockey and WHY did they have those Eggs.

The MAIN Element of this Idea was our Space Jockey would be Giant Humanoids who go around and Evolve/Create Life and played a Part in our Creation/Evolution... our Engineers were BORN.

When you TRY and do a Origins Story you are ALWAYS going to NOT give everyone the Answers they Expected or wanted, this was always going to be the Poisoned Chalice of showing us WHERE the Xenomorph came from and WHO the Space Jockey was.

The Prequel idea had Changed and Evolved and we got Prometheus that decided to TONE down the Xenomorph Connections and attempt to offer a New Spin Off Franchise that would STEER away from the Xenomorph and Alien and be more about the Engineers and their Background Story and Connection to us and Creation..

This however is where it Divided the Fanbase..

*Some where not pleased with the Space Jockey being 8ft Bald/Albino Humanoids

*Disappointed with the Aesthetic and Scale differences to the Space Jockey and Derelict.

*Disappointed we Never saw the Xenomorph or its Origins Explained, or Certainly we had nothing that Connected too close.

*Some had FELT that the Xenomorph should have a HIGH place in the Franchise, and so it being a Engineered Creation did-not sit well.... as they rather and Interpreted that surely the Xenomorph should be WHAT the Engineers had Discovered and gained their Technology and Black Goo from.

HOWEVER... the Prequels had opened up the Franchise, we have these Engineers and can ask to HOW MANY places have they been? How Many Worlds, Races and then when we look at LV-223 we ask HOW MANY kind of Horror came from this Place.

As well as we could ask... WHO Created them... was their something that Provided the Basis for their Experiments on LV-223 and where did the Black Goo come from!

When we got Alien Covenant then while it introduced the Xenomorph Origins in a way that SHOCKED and Disappointed Most of the Fanbase... we seemed to NOT be going too Discover more of the Points i made above regarding the Potential a Prometheus Sequel could have gone!

I think while the Disappointment of Alien Covenant has led them to think a Continuation or the Prequels are BEST to be Ignored... i think there was so much Potential to what they tried to do...

So i think that going back to the Franchise and going "ok Guys lets go back to the Derelict get some Eggs" to me shows a LACK of Ingenuity.........

UNLESS they show us a Different Cargo Hold with a Different Variant had remained in tact after the Destruction of Hadleys Hope or that the Eggs are Defective due to Radiation and so they do Experiments to try and Obtain a Strain from them that can give them the Original while we see some Abominations on the way.

The Alien Red Harvest (Alien V) Project seemed to show this and i think that could WORK... but you DONT have to included Ripley!

But for me i think you cant revolve around the Xenomorphs.

I am sure that some Fans wanted..

*To see more about the Engineers

*To wonder WHO Created them (Maybe the Space Jockey is Different).

*Maybe the Xenomorph (or some Related Ancestor) was the Basis for LV-223 and the Black Goo.

And with my idea it would leave Clues Open so  that a Sequel you could Explore any ONE of a few of the above. As i think thats the way you have to Expand beyond the Classic Xenomorph.

Or you have to go to either Experiment/Evolve them or you come to a World where they have Evolved/Changed.  And Uplift them beyond Space Ants