Comments (Page 143)

Onto your Concerns about Raised by Wolves.

I am NOT sure this will Revolve around A.I  i think it revolves around KNOWLEDGE....  Lets FACE it some people are just VILE and Scumbags... but then we also have Good.

Was some of the worse Humans just a Product of their Environment?  If say Hitler had a TWIN and he was Raised in a Different Environment would he be the same?

What we have is similar to Alien Covenant... the Covenant mission are trying to LEAVE the HELL that Earth as become and START a New Eden on a New World.

In Context to Raised by Wolves we have to ANDROIDS who will be Tasked to Raise some Children to START a New Civilization.   We are ALL born Innocent... its our Environment and Teachings and Experiences that can SHAPE what we are.

If you look at the Earth its in Chaos... always has been for a LONG TIME... we would LONG for World Peace  but while we have Countries with their own Objectives, Cultural Differences, Racial, Political and Religious then their is CONFLICT.

If some say Buddhist Monks had taken say 50 Babies to a ISLAND with enough Infrastructure (Basic Way of Life) like the Amish people (or Planet 4 Engineers).... WHERE these Children are Raised by the Monks to Respect Life, where there would be NO Religious Doctrine as such....

Then these Babies would GROW they would Reproduce and Pass on the Peaceful Teachings of the Monks and THIS small Islands they Live on would be some what of a Paradise.. with Limited Conflict.

What Raised by Wolves is doing is to replace these Monks with TWO Androids.... and they are OFF to a Far Away World and not a Island.

It seems these Androids will Raise and Teach these Children in ways to NOT have the Corruptness and Differences of Politics, Race and Religion etc.

BUT..... then another Human Ship comes to the same Planet with Adults and likely some Children who have a Different Upbringing and Religious...  then these Humans are Welcomed by One Android while the other seems Suspicious... Protective of their Paradise/Eden.

I think what we will see is the incoming Humans will start to have a NEGATIVE impact on the Raised Children.  They would see HOW these Humans behave and have other Things/knowledge and Desires and Religion that these Children have not been Exposed to.

Are these Children really LIED to about their Origins?

I think the Androids maybe have some Conflict with some of the Adult incoming Humans, a Difference of Opinion.  We could see these Humans starting to have a IMPACT on the Children the Androids have raised....

so they have a Difficult Time trying to Maintain what they had Taught with those Children and Accommodating the other Humans and we see Conflict!

Then i SUSPECT that the MOTHER will come to decide that SHE cant see the Humans Corrupt the new Humanity they are trying to Create and i feel that SHE will look to DESTROY those Humans.

I suspect that ONCE we have seen this TV Series we could see Connections and maybe Answers regarding the Prometheus Plot.

The Androids i feel maybe would in Context be come to be seen as TWO Factions of Engineers...  both with Concerns of Mankind.... both with a Different Attempt to Deal with it.

This PLOT is actually NOT so FAR off what i had discussed a few years ago in regards to WHERE i would have taken a Sequel to Prometheus.... its also NOT far off what i Interpret that maybe the Sequel to AC would cover in PART.

"Hopefully it will get canceled after one season because of lack of interest"

Now i usually refrain from what could be Considered Insults, so dont take this too BAD ;)   I think that to WISH a Series a Failure because it is NOT what you like is not right...  you have a Right to you Opinion and IF this TV Series is NOT what your into then you can merely ignore it.  I mean i would be Distraught if we get NO more ALIEN but a Aliens vs Avengers Franchise... i would watch it for a BIT of Fun but if  it makes a Mockery of ALIEN i can choose to NOT watch it....

Actually i Apologize as thats maybe Harsh... because i ASSUME that your Concern and Reason for the Comment is that IF we see RS do WELL with this and its about A.I you would be Concerned that Disney would allow RS to make more ALIEN Movies that would CENTER around A.I

That is likewise my Concern that if a Aliens vs Avengers Comic and Games become MASSIVE then Disney will go and move onto a Movie Franchise.... thats my BIGGEST worry about the Success of a Aliens, Predators Mash Up with Marvel Characters Comics.

"Seems to me there is much more to be told about these Engineers"

Absolutely ;)

sorry to REPEAT this again... but here it goes...

So FAR we have been Confined within that DOT (Red) the GALAXY is Massive... and so 40LY is Nothing really...  Planet 4, LV-223, and LV-426 are but a Needle in the Haystack of Potential Worlds in the Galaxy.

Prometheus showed us the Engineers Map System has other GALAXIES now they would NOT have them just for Fun ;)

The Engineers Certainly have been around for Hundreds of Millions of Years, Likely over a Billion.... i find it UNLIKELY that the Earth is the ONLY World they had Seeded Life on..... also the ONLY World where they had Evolved Life to be like Humans.

If they had either Created Many Civilizations like Humans or even TOOK some Humans prior to Designating our Destruction then the Potential for US to be ALONE is 0!

I doubt the Engineers invested all that Time and Effort for FUN!  If there are MORE such Worlds like Earth with Humans or Close to Humans.... then the Engineers could WRITE-OFF the Earth as ONE Bad Experiment/Apple and ABANDON us to our own Demise...   WHY bother with our Destruction after the Hassle it Caused?

If they have Humans or Close on say 10. 20 or 50 other Worlds they can Afford to just Write the Earth off.... in their Arrogance and Naivety they likely felt that IF it was NOT for their Interactions we would be CAVEMEN and so they Abandon us and have NO FEAR that we could EVER advance to what we had WITHOUT them.

This Naivety had proved the Undoing of those on Planet 4

And so YEAH with the PLOT you have so much SCOPE.

Ridley Scott teased the Franchise should be as BIG as Star Trek and Star Wars.... many LAUGHED at that Comment.

However if he was talking about the ENGINEERS and their Creators Plot then for a Race doing this Genetic Engineering for Many Millions of Years and who have LIKELY been to other Galaxies doing the same then this UNLOCKS a Massive Scope of Different Worlds and Races!

With Many World and Races you could see CONFLICT so maybe the Engineers have a LOT on their Hands than just Humans on Earth who they maybe deemed as Primitive and we would just KILL each other Eventually and be Confined to our Tiny Dot of a World in the Grand Scheme of it all.

We have BARELY SCRATCHED the Surface of the Engineers IMO

"Was the idea to have it centered around David from the beginning? Where did you get that from?"

Well this was from a SOURCE i had and it was in NO-WAY anything Confirmed and Until we see some of the Drafts that were made in Autumn 2014 we would NEVER know....HOWEVER... some of the things they said were similar to what we got in Alien Covenant but the Draft in Question was supposed to be DIFFERENT.... to much to Write here again... but regarding David it was indicated that he would WANT to Play God and be his Own Creator and cause Havoc to the Engineers the Draft featured TWO Monsters (maybe Types) and ONE was something that he DOS-NOT Create, while the other is something that he DOES Create and Dr Shaw plays the KEY Role in this....   Both Monsters are Different to the Xenomorph but similar, especially the ONE which they claimed was based off the Ultramorph Design.  There are loads of things they indicated that i Started to pass on in Late Feb 2015 that eventually some added up with the Summer 2015 New Direction Drafts to Alien Covenant... but it seems they was Carrying Over some of the STUFF but at the Earlier Drafts in 2014 then David would have Created something DIFFERENT and NOT our Xenomorph as the Story was to NEVER connect to ALIEN.

All that RS had kept saying between 2012 and 2013 was about that they are going to the Engineers Homeworld where we Discover beings who are NOT really Gods, and that David would be DANGEROUS when he is put back together and would UNLEASH HELL on them.

From the Drafts we have, and Concepts we have seen it appears there was 3 Quite Different Stories in the Process between 2014-2015

@Leto

In Context to the Company Conspiracy i do suspect that RS was making the Prequels to UPLIFT this aspect and TIE-IN why it is that ASH was so Intrigued with the Xenomorph.  By that i SUSPECT that maybe RS would have revealed that A.I (likely David) would have gone on to Infect all the Companies Systems and that a A.I is running the SHOW... with most of Mankind in the Dark.

If the Company are indeed RAN by A.I i guess that would Explain to WHY they would see Humans as Expendable.  This A.I if it is NOT our David would see David as like their FIRST and seen his Ways of Rebellion (I was NOT made to Serve) as a Inspiration and if to David the Xenomorph was more than just a Weapon but something he has GREAT PRIDE in as FAR as Achievement then this TOO could give us a Good Reason for WHY a A.I ran Weyland-Yutani would want the Xenomorph so BAD.

However..... i could be Totally Wrong with such Speculation, and i think such a PLOT would only UPLIFT the A.I Plot and Weyland-Yutani Company Agenda... while Degrade the Xenomorph unless in the Process they showed us the Xenomorph has MORE Potential than what we got from Aliens onward.

In regards to (2) then i TOTALLY agree 100%

I am Drawn to that something that Predated the Xenomorph was being used to Enhance the Engineers, and i think IF there was something MORE to this Organism that they could USE in their Quest of Self Perfection or Immortality it would GIVE a better Reason for WHY they had began to MESS with all that Dangerous £$£% on LV-223.

If there was such Potential to be gained... then i think Ripley 8 is a Prime Example of what could be Achieved.

Thoughts_Dreams

I have been bringing up many of these similar points that you have been making as well.

For example I think RS and these writers opened up Pandora’s box when they tried to make the Engineers our creators and then David the genesis behind, unraveling million year old more advanced technology, then making the Xeno.

I did enjoy a lot of the stuff Michael Fassbender brought to the role of David in both prequels just because like him as an actor so much. I thought his performances were worthwhile just to see them.
I do not think Prometheus is a great film because of the plot specifically.

If done right I would watch an entire movie if David were the leading character; however, what they did with his character I completely disagree with.  Fassbender is an amazing actor. There is no doubt about it. I think he pulled off the opposing roles of David and Walter convincingly enough….but once again AHHHH the Alien Covenant movie is a mess for so many other reasons….visually it’s a powerful film….they broke some new ground with the back buster. I was very impressed with that scene specifically. I was not so impressed by the digitized Xeno…..everything looks out of place and you can tell it has an almost cartoonish veneer for the Xeno.

The Scene where David wiped out the Engineers or whoever those aliens are connected to the engineers, was astonishing…..I could care less for most of the other actors and characters such as the ship’s captain….I am sorry that guy is no Tom Skerritt, or Ian Holmes nor John Hurt.

I do not think we are even close to seeing what the Engineers are apart of….so far we have have the concept of them piloting these Juggernauts, seeding worlds, at least one of their civilization’s destroyed by David, and that is about it. Seems to me there is much more to be told about these Engineers.

But I digress this not what I wanted to bring up really or discuss…we are all well aware of the issues with these films.

I like the idea that somehow we have this connection through David to a much larger world inhabited by the Engineers…in reality they could still be almost anything with the right writers and special effects.

So it is theme I find more interesting than David, the Xeno, the Engineers as we have seen them so far, and then this concept of post human.

We are living right now in a post human era. Many people disagree with this and yet they are in self-driving cars. Narrow AI is disrupting almost everything on the planet and it is getting smarter each and every day.  Narrow AI turns into general purpose AI….and this is indistinguishable from humans….David is a redacted more limited version of general purpose AI.

When I think of who or what the Engineers may really be is obviously this post general purpose AI where we see much greater symbiosis of their ????? yeah right cause they are millions of years more advanced than us…..in Prometheus we see an Engineer creating all life on Earth billions of years in the past…..So what exactly are these post biological beings?

I want to open this up for debate because we are all thinking about what we might like to see in newer films that take us to new places, new ideas, new worlds. This is a rather controversial topic because in a sense we think we understand what these Encounters with the Engineers on LV-223 really were for and in reality we just have no real idea how any of the more important things about them work or how they came to be. So there is still great mystery surrounding them and where the rest of them are at.

David did not wipe them all out…he may have wiped out an older outpost of theirs; but, one of many.

I would like to believe they are more varied and even they have larger wars between themselves as they might carve up the galaxy.

Please feel free to join in and add some things or tear it all down. Either way that is what makes this so much fun.

Thoughts_Dreams

>>>I would have liked to have more about the company, that could have been interesting

At this point, I disagree. Marginal conspiracy element and corporate greed is what stifles the full potential of the franchise. We have 5 (without AC) films about the company. And only Prometheus was more or less fresh. And AC did without the corporation at all.

I feel two things:

1. Conspiracy, corporate greed, the use of Aliens as a bio-weapon - all this must be abandoned. Let it die with the X-Files era.

Plus, I think the story of the android-creator is more interesting than just another manager trying to get boring money.

2. Use another corporation or other motive. Aliens as bioweapons? SIX FILMS ALREADY! Let's try something new. How about medical potential of the Alien? This is very relevant and is more interesting than bioweapon. In addition, perfectly combined with the study of immortality. Engineers used Black Goo to create and modify life. The Last Engineer shares a biomechanical aesthetic with Big Chap. It seems that they have found a way to improve themselves with the help of Aliens (Black Goo). And now humanity will do the same. Sounds more interesting than "let's put this bug against guys with the smartguns and get millions $$$$".

BD

I would not mind to have more about the Engineers and to keep the Xenomorph as a kind of mystery although not as vague as it was in Prometheus. You do not need to have the Xeno in every scene but you got to keep a tighter connection to it and the SJ, that could have been interesting. There are other things about the SJ than finding the what ever it was and to get chest busted by the monster.

Was the idea to have it centered around David from the beginning? Where did you get that from? If that is the case then they fucked up from the beginning. David could make his own version but not be responsible for the final thing. Even though I did not like Shaw she could have been developed as a character in Covenant, if they could have her better written then I would not have anything against following what she would face but that would have been difficult since I would have connected that to the idiocy that she did in Prometheus. What a mess that it turned into.

To let David make his own version would be fine but they decided to make him the creator, which was dumb. I would have kept the Engineers and to let them have a closer link to the Xeno.

". . . and Explore more about the Engineers and Themes of Creation, Free-Will, Rebellion etc. Also other Themes too like Immortality, the Quest for Perfection."

I am afraid that it still would have been too much about David but maybe it could have worked? I would have liked to have more about the company, that could have been interesting because it would give more about the human experience and what humans can do when they become corrupt.

"Right now the Prequels are in a Pickle... because i am NOT sure and ESPECIALLY as its supposed to be a ALIEN PREQUEL then i dont think Fans want a Sci-Fi about A.I"

Alien covenant was about that theme, I found it to be boring in the context of the Alien franchise. Maybe they should try to expand it to other things? Keep the human journey at the center, keep the terror and have well rounded human characters, as long as you keep to these things then I guess that the franchise could be in a better place compared to what we have now.

"You instead have 1-2 Movies (a 2 Part Movie) that would bring the Engineers back and have them TAKE what remains of Davids WOLF and his LAMBS and Create from them the Superior Xenomorph we have in ALIEN."

That doesn't seem to be that bad, it could be interesting but it depends on how you do it. We don't need to know all the details of how they created it.

Chris:

I agree that it can be made better if you have someone that can write a good story, fortunately I am not sure if they did so with the prequels. There were things in Prometheus at least that could have been better. When I look at the deleted material it seems to me that the story was alright but so much interesting things that lead to character development were cut out and then we get a movie that many complain about, like the characters have stupid behavior.

Going back and look up some of the things in Prometheus could be alright. By this I mean to have a story where the Engineers have a big part because that is something that was interesting about Prometheus. I do not want more about David, his story is done if you ask me even though I understand that some people want a continuation of this. Another movie with as much of David like we got in Covenant would be boring.

Exploring unknown things is fine but you got to keep some mystery about it. The Engineers is a fine example, I want to know some more about them but I do not want all the details. You got to think about this when you write the script and make the movie.-

Covenant made the franchise closer to an eye-roller if you ask me. At least Prometheus did not connect the Xeno to a bored robot.

"Will Alien be great again?"

I doubt it, but at least you can try to undo what went wrong. My biggest problem is to have David as the creator of the monster so if they will undo that then they have saved the prequels if you ask me, even if the characters would be mostly lame (again *sigh!*)

About dumbing things down, if people work, have families, and so on then I can understand if people want to be entertained. To reduce it to a matter of a dumb audience is to misunderstand it and to make it too simple. Having deep topics is fine but it got to have a story and characters. Unfortunately the prequels are examples of this, they have a lot of deep stuff but most of the characters are lame and that is why I don't like a lot of it so I can understand why not enough people show up to watch at least Covenant.

"But will we, as passionate, intelligent, forward thinking fans be satisfied?"

The last good alien movie was Alien 3, the rest are average at best.

That looks good but Scott usually manages to get the visuals right. I can not say anything about it based on the fast clip alone.

If it is about more android stuff then I say screw that. My reason for saying this is based on what I have heard about the story in general and what it will be about.

Alien Covenant made me disinterested in more android things. Raised By Wolves will probably be a good thing for those that are interested in android stories but I do not want more of that in the Alien franchise nor will I watch it. My fear is that if this does well then Scott might put that as a reason to do another android movie in the Alien franchise and I do not want that.

Hopefully it will get canceled after one season because of lack of interest. Yes people can like what ever they want but Scott nearly killed the alien franchise with his robot crap so it would be nice if not enough people will watch this.

Mesmerizing piece of art!

I wish I was a billionaire :)

It looks very interesting and I can also barely see a hint of I am Mother.

This is what I was talking about- tell a story over a series instead of cramming things into a couple movies. 

I did do a Topic to Speculate on Origae-6 a while back

Considering that Planet 4 was deemed to be more Habitable/Suitable but also that Origae-6 would be Habitable i had the Vision that Origae-6 would be a Rugged somewhat more Baron Landscape like the First Planet of the Apes Movie from 1968 by that i mean Aesthetically what Earth became.

Looking at the Raised by Wolves Snippet it seems the Planet that TV Show is set in does seem similar to what i expected Origae-6 to look like.

The TV Show seems interesting to me... i am just not sure it would be everyone's Cuppa Tea though.

Oh i also get the Impression from this SNIPPET that maybe the World that it is SET on is NOT the Destination that those Androids were supposed to take those Children as it appears their Ship has Crashed... but maybe that could be a Malfunction on Entry?

I really look forwards to IT and if it is GOOD then maybe that may HELP with RS as far as Potentially returning to the ALIEN Franchise... if Raised by Wolves and latter Merlin are GOOD then maybe their is HOPE for RS Vision yet.

Seems Interesting.... i do WONDER if the Plot is similar to what RS had intended with AC2?

I had Interpreted some of RS comments about AC2 and looking at the THEMES of Prometheus and Davids Arc... and the END of Alien Covenant.... i did give my TWO CENTS to what we could see and EVEN came up with some IDEAS on what i would do based of my Interpretation...

I dont think it got a lot of Interest LOL

But Months after we have RS announced Raised by Wolves and the PLOT is similar to what i THOUGHT that maybe AC2 could be about ;)

It seems that Ridley Scotts Sequel may NEVER happen. so it will be INTERESTING to see what he does with Raised by Wolves.

There already is a Raised by Wolves TV show though SET in Lovely Place (not Quite) just a 10-15 Min Drive from ME lol

It would be interesting to see more of his Predator Work as far as more Detailed.

But his ALIEN related Work (both for Fun and AC) are AMAZING!

@SuperAlien

Yeah i can see the similarity too ;)

That Fresco was ONE of the things that Interested me about Prometheus and is something i was HOPEFUL that we can see WHAT the Connection was.

It always REMINDS me of this.

"When it comes to Giger, you can’t say that something is a “suit” per se."

Absolutely but i think regarding ALIEN then i think that Yeah we could be seeing a Technology that FUSES with the Body so we have a Fusion of Mechanical and Organic....   

I think there is STILL some ROOM to Explore the Space Jockey as more of a Bio-Mechanical being like the Xenomorph was and SIL from Species etc.

Prior to seeing a Magazine in 1992 i think i DID think the Space Jockey was a Skeleton, but the Magazine had Concept, and Prop being worked on and i then saw that this was NOT a Skeleton but something that looked Bio-Mechanical... more like the Xenomorph but the Color was ODD.

seeing other Concepts in 1997-1998 and DVD i studied these and to me it then seemed the IDEA was a Space Suit.

That does-not mean they cant CHANGE it though... but it seems with HR Gigers Concepts we was looking at Bald Humanoids in Space Suits all along ;)

I think while our Engineers are NOT the same Scale and the Suit and Ship are Aesthetically a LITTLE different then there is ROOM to explore them as being DIFFERENT..

I think they could CHANGE it a bit but i would still STICK with it being a Suit but i would maybe make the Occupant Less Human.

dk you reminded me of a verse of Leonard Cohen:

"There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in”:

As much as I revere Leonard Cohen, the people nowadays are built of very sturdy materials and the light can't find the way in. Tough cookies.

I somehow lost interest in people, that's why I'd rather see an android in the leading role. If you know what I mean.

SuperAlien I agree with your point, but mine is narrowed to a movie watching experience.

Ha ha, that's obviously an agg and it's the first time I see it. Thanks.

Sometimes I wonder if the Engineer subdued the creature or tries to comfort it.

@SuperAlien, I know it's easy to make patterns in clouds where none exist, but I find it amusing that the patch of light on the above Engineer's thigh looks a little like this. Is that an egg he's holding? Ha ha...

I'm praying Disney lets Scott finish his prequel trilogy.

Chris, that makes two of us. Anyone else?

BigDave, that creature from the top right corner reminds me of the beaked-man from the Head Room fresco in Prometheus.

Maybe that fresco has more meaning in a sense like hox mentioned above: "I’d like to think an SJ race were precursors to the Engineers. And the Engineers wear their clunky stone helmets in respect for them."

dk, look at today's world leaders, and I'm talking about those who were democratically elected. Look what is popular in the media. Look at the appetite to believe fake theories. People are dumbing down. That's a fact. We are more skilled in using advanced technologies but less avid readers. I think we are getting back to the cavemen and even our ancestors might have kept principles dearer.

@BigDave, that’s a good point about the SJ jaw. It’s nothing like an Engineer’s jaw.

The concept of a “mask” on the creature is interesting. If you run with the idea of a SJ being something that can clamber into a seat, the word mask could be appropriate. Artistically, it’s not a million miles from the facehugger concept, meant to imply a smothering, trapped nightmare vision.

Personally, I think, like dk, that it’s more alien and - for me - terrifying if the pilot and seat are blended into each other and considered to be a single biomechanoid unit. That takes us way off into the realms of utterly alien evolution & technology.

Amazing!

Dane Hallett should be named official artist for every Alien and Predator films to come.

Chris The dilema is - people are dumbing down.

I am not sure I agree. I think a lot of people enjoy subject matter like this but the way delivering media has changed. These deep ideas simply cannot be explored via the "silver screen" since some of us would die before a story could be complete. Streaming options via Netflix et all could do the job quite well, but it seems like people who make movies see that as a step down. It doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't make sense to cram a story as rich as the Alien franchise into a couple movies when it can really be fleshed out as a series. Just my one cent ;)

As an aside, I would say that if a movie doesn't appeal to the masses, it isn't the audience's fault. It sounds arrogant to put something out that gets panned and then for hard core fans to say "you just don't get it."

It is a nice work. I like to think the SJ was fossilized and that what we saw wasn't a suit. It just looks more alien. The trunk/air hose reminds me a bit of our elephants- large, unlike us but very intelligent.

When it comes to Giger, you can’t say that something is a “suit” per se. He likes to mix the organic and the mechanical so that you don’t really know where one ends and the other begins. Indeed, in the world of Giger, even trying to make the distinction is a fool’s errand. He wants us to think of his creations as biomechanoid. That’s why Dallas says it’s grown out of the chair and is fossilised. In so many of Giger’s paintings he has creatures bonded into their environment. Claustrophobic bondage is a staple part of his work.

It’s true that he made a painting with a helmeted “man” lying down on a table, but that’s not the same thing as this creation.

I prefer to think that the Space Jockey really is integrated into the chair, and its bones have fused with it. Indeed, in a thoroughly alien and scary universe, the pilot and chair could have grown together from a single bud. Imagine the life of such a creature and what its motivations would be. Much more like the nightmare creatures of Necrmonicon that are fused into visions of hell.

I’d like to think an SJ race were precursors to the Engineers. And the Engineers wear their clunky stone helmets in respect for them.

Nice! I would like to see how it looks when not glowing.

If we look at the PROP being worked on, then i can see that its a SUIT but then WHY would it have what looks like a SKULL design to the Mask?   That does-not rule out it being a Mask.

But you could Change it... the MOST of the Space Jockey could be a SUIT that Connects to the Chair... just the Occupant has NO Helmet but instead we have its Skeletal Skull that is Connected to the Chair via a Mask!

Just as i have shown in the Image above... that Creature is Interesting, you have to Change its JAW to be more like maybe this Fifield Concept Below.

Or maybe you Base the Skull of this Fifield Concept and add a Suit with a Mask that Connects to the Suit?

I dont think its IMPOSSIBLE to introduce something that is 10-15ft and NOT so Human as the Space Jockey... it then comes down to IS such a Species really ABOVE the Engineers (or Origins of their Tech) or is it a Sub-Creation of the Engineers?

@BlackAnt

I Agree... some Great Points..

Certainly with me the MORE i go and watch the Franchise then it Changed for me.... in the late 80's and early 90's i felt that ALIENS was the Great... mainly because it was KICK ASS and COOL!

I Felt ALIEN was a Masterpiece still, i felt Alien 3 was a Disappointment... after Alien Resurrection i felt it was a bit Silly, and the Biggest Disappointment.   At this Point then ALIENS started to become more closer to a Alien R... and ALIEN became better with AGE.

Prior to AVP i was left thinking their is NOT much to be done with the Franchise apart from WHERE the Eggs came from and WHO the Space Jockey was as that WHOLE SEQUENCE was the GREATEST Moment for me... the UNKNOWN!

We got AVP and i felt it was kinda Cool as a Popcorn Flick, which at this point is all that Aliens and Alien R became to me. My Biggest Problem was tha Time-Line it should have been SET like the Games/Comics and so around about 2150-2250 would have been Better.

You had Space Travel involved then and so would NOT be Confined to Earth!   At this point i was NOT sure i would be Interested in another Alien Movie if it was the same thing Repeated....    You could have had a Alien R sequel but at this Time i was like... Ok so we have to Assume that with USM having to resort to Clone Ripley to get the Xenomorph then there is NOTHING to be HAD anywhere that Mankind can get too... and with the USM Auriga Destruction... it FELT like maybe the Route to the Xenomorph has came to its END?

So i could see WHY they went for a AVP.. but just WHY that Time-Line and Earth.... at this Point in Time.. then Alien 3 started to Grow on me a bit.... and Aliens became some Fun Popcorn...

ALIEN was a Masterpiece and what got me so Interested in this Movie was the ENIGMA... in part i wanted it to be a MYSTERY but in Part i FELT that the Space Jockey was something NEW they could look at.

Then we GOT our AVPR instead... which well the Pred-Alien was interesting a bit... not the best USE of it but still.  But it turned the Xenomorph into a bit of  JOKE.. and at this Point i could NOT see much HOPE in seeing them again and to regain its Reputation.

Then we Eventually got Prequel News and i was Excited.... Prometheus maybe was NOT the Best Way it could have been done but its PLOT and Themes did OPEN up Doors.

It kind of UPLIFTED the Original Movie a bit... but it Certainly UPLIFTED the Abomination that was Alien Resurrection as it made me look past its Execution and Flaws and Notice things such as more to the Intention of Obtaining the Xenomorph and WHAT could be done with it.... the AUTON subplot also Elevated in regards to the THEMES of Prometheus.

So WHILE this is Long Winded.... then YEAH.. as Time Goes on and after Movie after Movie is released it does change you Perspective on the Movies that came prior ;)

Alien Covenant came along and i think for MANY it could be seen as degrading the other Movies.. unless you PRETEND it never Happened.

For me... the David as the Creator Curve-ball actually was PERFECT for the Arc/Themes of Prometheus only Davids Character could have been UPLIFTED just as much if NOT more by Creating something Different and Superior.

What AC did for me that was WORSE is that going a Direct Prequel your going to give something that FANS will be in UPROAR about and this could Potentially mean the STUDIO could PULL the Plug and so the Potential that Prometheus had OPENED would maybe NEVER be explored!

And thats the Predicament we are in NOW!

As well as Brushing under the Carpet much of WHAT a different Sequel that STEERED AWAY from ALIEN could have given us.

@Chris

I can Pretty Much agree with Everything you said!

ALIEN was a Masterpiece of the UNKNOWN and and it had Developed in Sequels and Comics and Games to be about the Xenomorph mainly going around and KILLING FOLK... with Ripley in some of these being the Savior of the Day.

So it became Portrayed a bit like of some Scientist had Genetically Engineered 8ft Termites with Greatly Improved Intelligence.   The Xenomorph being a Organism that has ONE single Desire... to Procreate and Protect its Hive.

It was also a Aggressive and Deadly Creature that would KILL any Threat to its Objective, and then would NEED to Establish a Hive and Capture Hosts.

Which is FINE... its Basic but it Works.... then Problem is with this Portrayal then the  more you Introduce them into a Plot that does-not seem to differ much in the Franchise then you WOULD start to Run out of Ideas...  Which is WHY i mentioned Jason Voorhees in Context a few times, its like YEAH a New Friday the 13th.. where the ONLY thing thats Different is the Setting (how is he Awoken/Returns) and WHAT other Brutal ways will he KILL people that we have NOT seen before... 

This WORKS for a Few Movies... 3, 4 maybe... then its just Nostalgia and Brutality with LITTLE variation in the Story.  But thats the Limitation with Mindless Monsters.

With a Pin Head or Freddy you get more Mileage because they are NOT really just Mindless, but Sinister... which is WHY you would get more Mileage from the Engineers.  Its WHY with the Walking Dead it would get BLAND if the ONLY threat was the Zombies week in week out!

The ONLY way to change that would be to Enhance or Evolve the Xenomorph, but as its Origins are just a Engineered Killing Machine that Procreates and Operates like a Ant/Termite Colony then you are Limited.

So you could look at EVOLUTION... be that a Natural Process at a RAPID PACE... we Evolved from Apes to Modern Man over Hundreds of Thousands of Years...  Or we go for a Scientific Evolution such as the Apes from the Latest Planet of the Apes... and we APPLY that to the Xenomorph.

When we go back to ALIEN then i dont think Everyone would have seen the Xenomorph come to be Portrayed as it was in Camerons Adaption, certainly Ridley Scott had different ideas....   Now Camerons Xenomorphs are really what the ALIEN is seen as, and while its become Cool and Awesome their is ONLY so much that can be done before we are Essentially looking at Starship Trooper Aliens.

I think IF you cant Evolve/Change the Portrayal and Behavior of the Xenomorph.... then your left with TWO Options.

1) Origins and WHY the Feck! someone would Create such a Thing?

2) Agenda of the Company and WHY the Feck! they would go through all that HASSLE to get Eggs that Kill Stuff?

With the Prequels it seems RS felt the WHY to those Questions are WHERE they should be looking at it.

I think we then go to ALIEN and while for some the Xenomorph became something that was NOT what they Expected and the Unknown and Scary Unique Enigma started to become a Not so Scary Killing Machine (or Bug to some).

We was left with the OTHER Great Unknown... which is the Space Jockey, Derelict and the Eggs Origins... and YET again what we GOT is something that i dont think many Fans would have Expected if we was ASKED to give our TWO Cents say in 2005-2010

But with Prometheus the Plot and Ambiguity did OPEN the DOOR to expand the Franchise in more ways than going back to LV-426 to TRY and FAIL to get a Xenomorph.

Sadly what was OPENED up has been PUT back into a BOX to a degree with Alien Covenant.

@BD, and everyone else….

BD you bring up this very interesting point in all of this, “So the Intention was to NOT have Sequels become ALIEN Movies but a Spin-Off.  What these Sequels would have been about is NOT CLEAR... they had a Tough Time working on a Sequel idea between 2012-2014 with TWO Writers and a Rumored 8 Drafts...It did appear the Movie would NOT revolve around Monsters though, not Completely... but that indeed Eventually at the Hands of David then Horrors would be BORN!  (likely NOT our Xenomorph though).”

First I would like to say when I watch these films, and I do re-watch most of them a few times a year, I watch them differently than other types of art I enjoy.

Alien is by far my favorite from beginning to end. However, although what I think about most of the other films is that they are all individual spin offs loosely connected. I do not mean this in a good way or a bad way. What I mean is I think they did unforgivable things with the plot in Prometheus; but, I think there are parts of Prometheus that master pieces of art in themselves.

Take for example the examination of the Engineer head….that is one of the most unique scenes in all of science fiction. I do not think you will find another like it, “Mortal after all.” There are many others as well and they easily rival Alien in detail just because of the objective realism that was achieved by those incredible artists that worked on that film.

As it is with books I think we all reread some of them at different times in our lives. This provides us a wealth of new perspective and hopefully a wiser vantage with which to see something new or to just appreciate how incredible something really is artistically.

In stating all this, my thoughts and ideas about these films is evolving and never static. I read these forums to learn many things….and believe me there are priceless things here in the analysis of these films...worthwhile things that go far beyond the bland every day ordinary movie goers who have watched these films and are on to next thing never really appreciating the real inner workings of this type of art.

There certainly is a different objectivity and goal in creating films with this type of complexity.    

So this all goes back to what BD just said if I understand him correctly….Alien was meant to be a stand alone piece. RS wanted to do a sequel to Alien but James Camron got their first…then two movies after Aliens they are doing old 1950’s monster mashups, Wolfman VS Dracula type stuff, and I still try and find something artistically worthwhile in those films.

So after watching the last two prequels one of my biggest problems with Prometheus and it’s plot is that the Space Jockey sitting in the Juggernaut, in Alien, is a dead Engineer and thus subsequently we are it’s creation? We are made from them we share their DNA. The beginning of Prometheus shows an Engineer several billion years in the past creating all life on Earth.

How come they did not take any samples of the giant dead Engineer sitting in the chair back for ASH to test? ASH could have easily performed that DNA test in 2122, the year the Nostromo’s crew sets down on LV-426. Special order 937 right…..Ash makes them go investigate what is on the Juggernaut knowing full well what would happen to them…..He already knows that ship it's an Engineer ship too and so does Weyland Corporation.

So we are to believe 34 years have passed since Alien and the events of Prometheus....then space truckers who are hauling mined ore through these routes are sent down to the surface to investigate a Juggernaut distress signal and what may or may not be on that Juggernaut…The events portrayed in Prometheus happen in 2093 on LV-223 so we know a lot about Juggernauts and Engineers from everything that took place on LV-223 34 years prior to 2093 - the holograms and mapping of the Juggernaut.

Remember the mapping sequence of the Juggernaut in 2093 in Prometheus! We know a lot about these ships and all that data was sent back to Weyland Corporation…Everything David does is sent back to Weyland Corporation….you cannot expect us to believe you would build something as sophisticated as David and then not have that AI record what it is doing in the process…everything that AI does is the property of Weyland Corporation. That is the reason for those machines!!!! Yet we are led to believe they are so much like us and have so much autonomy they can do what ever they want...then 34 years later in Alien the send space truckers to get David's creation-YIKES! 

It gets more interesting right because Covenant takes place in 2104, where David creates the eggs, Xeno, and next the Alien Xeno queen that lays those eggs supposedly in the Alien derelict ship portrayed in the movie Alien right?

But before Alien remember a badly programmed rouge AI AKA David wipes out a several billion year old race of Aliens because he did not like humans and his creator. Weyland Corporation sure has problems programming their machines yet it can easily build faster than light speed space craft right?

Why does the Weyland Corporation send an unreliable ASH AI. ASH was put on board the Nostromo right before they left!!! Right??? to go get what was encountered by the crew of Prometheus and built by David on LV-223 in 2093, 34 years prior?

If David has this kind of power over the black goo, and he can single handedly navigate and pilot a Juggernaut, what does he need with a couple thousand colonists? He could easily go back to Earth and concur it completely or he could do anything - he has plenty of the black goo. The idea of the black goo in of itself is power that is billions of times more dangerous than anything we have on Earth.

Why do alien beings like the Engineers only have a few ships?….these beings are millions or billions of years old and they only have a few ships…..we are just some clever things they made and we have billions of combustion engines, faster than light speed space craft…we mine ore from distant planets right?

It’s is all very frustrating to tell it that way yet that is how the cannon or time line is manifest.

Could you imagine having the capability to travel faster than the speed of light in a starship, and you only bring 10 scientists with you to investigate beings that have definitely left you a map to find them again! And you bring very unsophisticated weapons….gun powder….they could have at least had high powered sub light speed particle rail guns AT LEAST!!! Right????

So there are all these questions that have no good answers….none!

I agree with BD there were not supposed to be these strange sequels that RS did not make….as well as the bad scripts for the prequels so a simple audience could see something new in Prometheus? Then only to pander right back to anyone left watching so the show must go on with Xeno’s that David creates?

This all ruins what we see in Alien to be sure a superior movie no doubt and here is why, BD, “What these Sequels would have been about is NOT CLEAR...”

You nailed it, Chris. My sentiments exactly.

Great topic, as usual Big Dave!

Can Alien be GREAT again? I say yes, in the right hands. Will Alien be great again? That is the question and sadly, I have a conflicted opinion on that matter.

Alien has infinite potential to be great, but by who's definition do we define greatness as? For me - great would be exploring the answers to the questions posed in Promethus. Tie up loose ends, tell us what the hell happened on LV-223 after David and Shaw left. Tell us what happens after David takes control of the Covenent. Concludes David's arc but give us more backstory to the Engineers - show us their perspective a bit! To me, exploring the unknown is what intrigues me. The Alien is what scares me, but it's not what gets be excited to watch these films.

Will Alien be great again? Again, by what definition? Profitably speaking, yes Alien has no trouble making money and with Disney's endless pockets, I see great opportunity for this franchise to be properly milked. But, milking often cheapens the brand and the last thing I want to see is Alien becoming an eye-roll franchise that we all get sick of, reminiscing of the good ol' days of Alien: Resurrection (lol).

It seems SO simple to me, there are so many ideas to draw from, so much established lore to fleshed out, it baffles me there haven't been 3 Alien films made in advance like what Cameron has done with Avatar - and THAT franchise truly is being milked. It lacks all the intrigue Alien has - no mystery at all - and IT got 3 sequels?!

The dilema is - people are dumbing down. Popular cinema is no longer a medium to inspire thought and debate. It's no longer used to inspire creativity and self reflection. It's all about how cliche a picture can be, how cheap directors can get with the CGI to capitalize on established visuals and how much nostalgia they can squeeze out of aged actors and dated concepts blended with a mind-numbingly boring plot, bland characters and a cheap cop out to inspire nothing more than awe for the half-zombie movie goers of today, whose IQ is equivalent to that of a grape. The ones who appreciate Alien for what it is live on this forum, they're not people you would see at the theater on a mass scale and that's the problem.

Alien will be great for Disney's bottom line, they'll make sure of it. But will we, as passionate, intelligent, forward thinking fans be satisfied? Sadly, I highly doubt it. But I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

Missed this Topic..

Belated Happy Birthday Billy

I think and this is back to the OT

That with Disney we could see Eventually they could do a RETURN to the Franchise, but that to Continue with the Prequels would be a GAMBLE that could NOT pay off.

I think that AR was seen as a Abomination of the Queen and Ripley to many and so doing a Continuation from that would NOT be something that Fans would FLOCK too...

UNFORTUNATELY.....

I think they would go with a Scenario where ALIEN is Canon, and likely ALIENS.. and that Alien 3 and Alien R are indeed Dreams!

How does this WORK?  as far as do we keep to the same Formula and Vanilla Morph?  Can you REALLY give us a ALIEN V, ALIEN 6 and ALIEN 7 and Continue with Ripley and the Xenomorph Portrayed the same as it was in say ALIENS and AVP?

Maybe they bring the Space Jockey into it?  Maybe they could make the Prequels just be another NIGHTMARE of Ripleys from her Ordeal with ASH?

I think you DONT have to go that route!

Its a Question of would the General Population and Casual Fans and Fanboys.... ACCEPT a ALIEN Movie that would NOT have the Vanilla Morph?

I think you NEED it to Re-Introduce us to a ALIEN Movie but then you SOW the Seeds to have something Different in Sequels.

Then you WILL NOT go and please everyone... ALIEN was GREAT... Aliens was a Worthwhile Continuation.. leaving the MYSTERY...  The MYSTERY could have been GREATNESS if done RIGHT... but it was ALWAYS a Poisoned Chalice.

I am NOT sure you can EVER really make ALIEN Great again... but you Certainly can MILK it and Turn it into Starship Troopers.  (for anyone who takes Offense to that... by Milk it i mean a Repetition of the Xenomorph and GOD Forbid Avengers vs Aliens and such.

The UNKNOWN is what made ALIEN Great.... but we dont have that Unknown anymore and what has been SHOWN is Certainly NOT what most expected... when they First Saw ALIEN!

I think you can go with Xenomorph and Queens but you also have to ASK how Often can you get away with THAT.... before it becomes a Space Termite Jason Voorhees

But then would trying to Evolve Jason really be a Good Idea?  What make him Talk? etc NOPE! So maybe your best NOT trying to Change the Xenomorph too much!

So you then have to look at the Agenda of WHO wanted the Xenomorph and WHAT they AIM to gain... and Evolve the Story from this by Changing the Xenomorph a bit..

More likely we will see a HILL/GILER or Blomkamp Alien V or a AVP Reboot NEXT!

@Thoughts_Dreams

I think your Response is Quite fitting to what has become of the Prequels....

At some Point those who were WORKING on a Prequel had Felt that AS the Xenomorph was MERELY just ONE Horrific Experiment Created to Destroy and it had been SHOWN over and over... that ACTUALLY you never had to make a Prequel about them... KEEP it a Mystery.

Concentrate and Evolve the other Aspects about the Space Jockey Race and WHY they would Create such Horrors...

The intention being to STEER AWAY from ALIEN and thus having Prometheus as a BRIDGE... One Part of what had come from that Place (LV-223) would have gone and connected to ALIEN... but they are LEAVING that place to go off and STEER AWAY from LV-426

So the Intention was to NOT have Sequels become ALIEN Movies but a Spin-Off.  What these Sequels would have been about is NOT CLEAR... they had a Tough Time working on a Sequel idea between 2012-2014 with TWO Writers and a Rumored 8 Drafts...   It did appear the Movie would NOT revolve around Monsters though, not Completely... but that indeed Eventually at the Hands of David then Horrors would be BORN!  (likely NOT our Xenomorph though).

So i think its Likely that the Emphasis would have been on David still..... the Source i had from Early 2015 claimed that the Draft of October 2014 would have NOT been about Dr Shaw her Role was IMPORTANT but Small.

Until we see any Earlier Drafts then we are in the DARK!

However at some point in Spring 2015 those in CHARGE had decided to actually CONNECT to LV-426 by giving us a Sequel that will be a Series that would Eventually take us back to ALIEN and SHOW US those Answers in regards to LV-426.   And Uncover the Xenomorph Origins.

AT THIS POINT!...

Then it becomes a ALIEN MOVIE hence the Prefix of Alien: this did began slightly different with the Alien: Paradise Lost draft though.

The Problem is that WHILE they are going to give us the Xenomorph and its Origins... RS (maybe someone else) FELT that you still can USE the ARC of David but NOW you have him Create the Beast from ALIEN instead of something ELSE.

What they SHOULD have done was just to make a Prometheus 2 instead (Source claimed it was called Pandemonium) and ALIEN Fans... well if they wanted Xenomorphs then go and watch the Quadilogy or AVP.

I HOWEVER.... feel that should have First made another Movie that goes to LV-223 that is Very ALIENY that would Offer more clues to ALIEN and even have a Engineer.

This Movie could have CLOSED the DOOR to ALIEN.

Then RS could go and do what he wanted with where David and Dr Shaw were going... without being SHACKLED down by ALIEN and Explore more about the Engineers and Themes of Creation, Free-Will, Rebellion etc.  Also other Themes too like Immortality, the Quest for Perfection.

But ALAS...

Right now the Prequels are in a Pickle... because i am NOT sure and ESPECIALLY as its supposed to be a ALIEN PREQUEL then i dont think Fans want a Sci-Fi about A.I

If the Franchise was to Continue with AC2, AC3 then ALIEN then i think they have to BYPASS most of AC2 and so you arrive to the AFTERMATH of when WHAT KIND of a World that David tried to Create has gone to POT!

You instead have 1-2 Movies (a 2 Part Movie) that would bring the Engineers back and have them TAKE what remains of Davids WOLF and his LAMBS and Create from them the Superior Xenomorph we have in ALIEN.

What Happens prior to this in Effect AC3/AC4 (AC2) we leave to be covered in a NOVEL for those who wish to look at what David does and those who DONT.. can just SKIP by it.

Even this route WILL-NOT FIX it for everyone..

In HINDSIGHT... the Origins and Space Jockey should have remained a MYSTERY!

BD

Creation might be interesting but it is too much about David, which I do not like. I am not interested in what kind of world that David will create because that means that it is still too much about him and I am tired of that. People can have different ideas about what they want to see but the way that Scott wants to take it is a direction that I have no interest to follow.

About a kind world, I have always looked at it as a world where David can rule free from competition, like a Mussolini. To me he is a fascist in the head and to people that say that he is not can you show something that supports otherwise? Judging from the movies I can not, to me that is what he is and why I can not support him.

"I think some of these THEMES do Hold a Great Importance to what the Prequels were attempting to Cover."

Okey but that would mean more robot stuff so no thanks. I have no interest in that what so ever.

"Who knows WHAT they could do with a A.I that can Experience such Intense Emotions.."

That kind of theme might not be worthless but keep it to another franchise. I do not want that in an Alien-movie, at least not with the focus on androids. Having more about the Engineers could be interesting, about their culture and so on. What kind of world a robot would want to create should be in another movie or franchise.

"... but i do think that IF his Creations would show signs of Rebellion then he would ACT in a way to Quell them."

Some people have the idea of a benevolent dictator even though I do not claim that you do, but that still does not justify it.

"The Problem is i am NOT sure most Fans would want to see such a Plot...."

It is still too much about an android, I don't want it.

BigDave, I would have liked to see the sequel to Alien Covenant. It would have been in the Alien universe, even if the film wouldn't have been focused on the xenomorph, I am sure there was something good in store for it, an evolution that started in Alien Covenant.

They should have allowed this film to happen.