Comments (Page 186)

Nope, not neomorphs. The creatures coming from the engineers would be the first stage of the neomorph life cycle. Think of what came out of Shaw after her black goo exposure via sex with Holloway. Also, what came out of the mushrooms after their exposure. The first stage is some kind of parasite, which will then attack another creature and impregnate them with some kind of neomorph. The neomorph is the final stage, not the first.

It was too early to commit Another Life to the MMBT file I Raptus. The Mobius Strip ships in the last episode were enough to keep the series out of the same classification as Eyes Wide Shut.

Alien Series Blueprint

As far as a blueprint for an Alien Series...that is a good question because the story/character development does begin on Earth and a crew is selected to investigate areas not seen before.  The extraterrestrial arrival, to me, doesn't fit unless it is changed to a hostile Engineer visit or a Xenomorph outbreak.  

The character development cited above is vital and a continuing challenge in the narrow window of an Alien film. An Alien series would certainly have the room to address this.  Private Rosenthal and Sergeant Lope have a great time fighting local terrorists just outside of London in the early 2100s in the Alien: Covenant Origins novel.  

This scenario would provide the character development in a series that builds up to or following a film such as Alien: Covenant. And who is against micro-drones attacking a flying 4-door sedan over a field of synthetic animals attacking the security forces...that would create a lot of character for the series.

Thank you for the topic enrichment Gavin.  

I had no idea what you were talking about and it was interesting to research it.  We focus quite a bit on the content product but there is just as much drama in the development of the games, films, tv...below.

Sega blames Gearbox for mismanaging Aliens: Colonial Marines marketing (source)

"Cocooned Woman" is Barbara Coles (source).

"Newt's Mother" is uncredited, played by Holly De Jong (source). 

Great question dk.

Yeah, why would she hot-foot it back to Hadley's Hope for a short back and sides?

Also, it was Dietrich who found the lady in the picture above. "Get over here, we've got a live one!"

I never thought they were alike.

Different eyes.

Different hair color/cut.

"I think maybe kind of, its HARD to come up with anything thats never been done before in Sci-Fi"

That is certainly easy to argue BigDave with the explosion in Sci-Fi content over the last 50 years.  Almost every conceivable concept has been explored in various quality over the decades.

Secret Agendas

"she additionally begins uncovering secrets and techniques hidden inside her personal programming, secrets and techniques that might assist her shield her household, however may simply as simply destroy them.” (source)

The above character background of the mother android (Amanda Collin) on the planet reveals secrets. It would be nice to see something like the special orders in the Alien movies or Advent where the colony was a test environment...not necessarily a Xenomorph hive but that would be really nice.

"I suspect we will see Inner Conflict for those Children as in Discovering what other Humans are like and what Drives them, and some of this could be Appealing to them, some could be Disturbing to some...

While some of those Children could maybe see the Care that the Androids had placed into them, and see the Potential Bad in the Influence/Corruption and Conflict the Arrival of these other Humans could have on their PARADISE."

The Netflix I Am Mother scenario is very similar in concept in regards to the inner conflict of a child cared for by an android that you describe above BigDave.  This child is later exposed to another human for the first time and taught to be suspicious and I suspect any human visitors on the Raised by Wolves planet will be treated the same way. 

Raised by Wolves 

The character biographies below were in the article.

Matias Varela - Lucius

“a loyal soldier, who’s attempting to make up for the perceived failings of his father, a person whose sense of kindness and mercy have been his final undoing. Lucius is so dedicated to reversing his father’s legacy, that he devotes himself to serving the very man who executed him, a person he believes could also be a savior to his folks.”

Travis Fimmel - Marcus

“a roguish, charismatic soldier, who was the last word survivor again on Earth. To flee the doomed planet, Marcus and his spouse Sue made a harmful resolution that they have to hold secret in any respect prices. However now that they’ve arrived within the new world, Marcus is struggling to reconcile the sins of his previous, at the same time as he continues to embrace the killer instincts that at all times stored him alive within the first place.”

More secrets...can't wait.

Just finished reading, amazing stuff!

I don't believe for one minute that the prop/set designers took their creations far beyond what is seen on camera. For example, I imagine that Ridley quickly sketched out an oddly profiled tunnel where the explorers in Alien check out the derelict. It looks good and weird in and of itself. The set constructors didn't need to worry themselves about where in the ship that tunnel was. Similarly, when it came to showing the egg chamber, a glorious expansive cave is all we need to see on screen. It might be an underground,  cavern or deep in the belly of the ship. It doesn't really matter, so long as it looks good (and plausible).

Inconsistencies in what is shown are certainly oversights, but perfectly understandable ones. I don't suppose that any of the designers imagined that 40 years later, we'd be nit-picking about it on something called 'the internet'.

BigDave

You use the word oversight a lot when you are dealing with inconsistencies. Implying the designers and filmmakers have overlooked the differences. I don't think they have it's just they think the connections they make are strong enough and viewer suspension deals will the rest and whatever they change is for story values.

Less you think I am suggesting you are in a minority of one I have noted all deep fan sites of film franchises are preoccupied with the same issues and people become very rude about those responsible for these oversights but thats mankind for you fragmented, angry and adversarial.  

chli

I thought you would enjoy the joke as you are avowdly in the camp that if David is the Jockey with his cargo of Eggs from the Covenant sleepers it would be tosh. 

When Ridley decided to return to the franchise he said no one had dealt with the question of the guy in the chair.

I decided with the information of Prometheus to recalibrate the question no one had asked the question as to the target of the derelict and its cargo?  Once I had an answer to that question it became clear that Kane’s intervention and his subsequent child was an unintended consequence and were a diluted degraded outcome lacking the purity and full potential of the Engineers work. I thought this was an original idea but it turns out that was precisely the vision of Steve Messing one of the design artists of Prometheus.

There were two other elements I decided came into play which explained its behaviour. The Mutagen is a combination of the Fire of Life and a contrived element, which in combination catalyses organic outcomes by biomimetic fabrication and subjects them to an inbuilt base sequence of control by tagging.

However, all life mutates to its circumstances and conditions and Kane’s intervention and the earlier one in my story represent unauthorised interference. So part of the creature's behaviour is about retribution on the host species for interference. That explains its unbridled hostility and remorseless determination to destroy any member of the host species. It is the ultimate example of a punishment tag.

However, there is another element which Chli has very kindly raised up for conversation. Given the actual target of the Ovoid’s would result in an outcome, which is as much about the host as the ovoids, would not mankind’s behavioural tics bleed into the creature.

Mankind is adversarial, driven by fear particularly fear of death (Weyland), over-sexualised (Milburn, Charlie, Vickers in my story) is one of the few species that kills its own kind. Many examples are dysfunctional, unable to cope without drugs (Fifield) or drink (Kane and in a sense Charlie). Mankind was created in the image of their Gods but doesn’t hold on to the beauty and symmetry of David or Venus.          

So it’s contribution to Kane’s child is to be over-sexualised, unable to communicate effectively and metaphorically entirely correct has acid for blood. It's also profoundly dysfunctional, and misshapen, echoing Frankenstein’s creation with its bizarre unlovely rear skeletal structure.

The most elegant element is the head shape shared by the apex of their achievement the Deacon Upgrade, and the head shape turns out in my story to be an echo of a Home World creature with a special destiny, but on the creature it’s a metaphor for male sexuality.

I also felt that each time a Face Hugger/Creature appeared you needed to say something new and unique about it and go into the territory that Chli is raising.

In the first instance, the exchange is between a creature born of a decent host and a female. The exchange between them is built around Ridley Scott and Veronica Cartwright’s observations about what was going on between the creature and the woman.

The first thing the creature does is to pass its tail between her legs and holds her up by it. The implications are obvious he then goes on to spit a secretion on her visor, which could be interpreted as a form of pre-ejaculation. Obviously the female has no idea what this means but she is coming apart at the seems (heart rate through the roof, bowl loosening etc) and in any event, she would consider the creatures next move as rape. But equally, a crewmember is looking on who rapes and murders his victims so a comment about connected behaviour (Chli's point) which bleeds into Elizabeth’s story in Act 3.

On the second occasion a face-hugger alone appears and in a confrontation with David shows its capacity to adapt and use its host's knowledge. David taken by surprise handles it and finds himself outwitted as it attempts to sever his head from his body with the tail of the hugger.  This kicks the narrative forward but enables David to feel rage. 

Finally, there is an incident where a host realises it has the capacity to control what is incubating inside it. This is part of a journey for a host and the mutagen and to show the many-faceted options for both.  Almost the crossroads where Ripley had arrived at but going on further.

chli

I got your point about Kane's drinking it's not about the drinking it's the psychological background to all substance abuse.  

As far as I'm concerned, Ridley can't repair what has already broken. Covenant had great potential, but flopped at the box office, last time I checked it only made $70 million. In my opinion, Blomkamp's Alien 5 should have been made and afterwards, Scott's prequels should have been made. But as we all know, Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 is dead in the water thanks to Ridley and Fox.

Michelle

Well, if David’s behind the eggs, then they are not there in 2019. :)

hox

It’s an interesting idea that a juggernaut perhaps can die (like a vegetable without nourishment).

BigDave

It’s possible that someone has tried to destroy the Derelict (because of its dangerous cargo). The crew of the Anesidora were there about 15 years after the crew of the Nostromo. Perhaps others as well?

Russ and Anne Jordan enter the Derelict through a gash in the Derelict's arm. Was it there when the group from the Nostromo were there? They enter through one of the three holes in the centre.

These "doors" were open, by the way, as if the crew had been in a hurry to get out. As the team from the Nostromo looks at the Space Jockey, Lambert says: "What happened to the rest of the crew?" Perhaps there were more Engineers on the ship and they fled from a xenomorph attack and succumbed somewhere on LV-426?

Well, alcoholism isn’t a psychological trait but rather a behaviour in response to an underlying psychological trait. Anyway, a loving xenomorph would be something, wouldn’t it? :) But in this concept art for Alien 5, they seem to have domesticated some xenomorphs:

One of the best moments in the film. Also nice videos. I still don't know what happened with engineers - it's neomorphs burst from them?

ignorantGuy Thanks- I mis-typed and you are correct.

dk

Despite? No it is quite the opposite. Because of his delusions of superiority could simply not care about others.

hox The first video was different. It was a time lapse video of stage setups. It has been updated. 

The pathogen video serves as a good reminder of what an evil prick David is despite his dilutions of being superior and god like. 

Huh? What was all that stuff dropping from the ship and bursting out of the Engineers, then?

More importantly, why does the same video appear twice above?

The videos have changed. Unfortunately I cannot delete my first post.

The video has no black goo scenes or sets at all.

hox Yes, xenos are plenty mean enough sober.

It doesn't really make much sense to think that an Alien could acquire psychological traits like alcoholism. Although a movie featuring an Alien that likes a drink would be a bit of a laugh.

I can well believe that an Alien could acquire the instincts* and physical capabilities of its host, since they are encoded in genetics. If that makes the Alien a better killing machine, that can only make it a more "perfect organism", as described by Ash.

*apart from certain instincts such as nurturing, compassion etc. The Alien would have no need for those traits.

"In ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event"

I must admit, when I saw the Aliens Special Edition, where we got to see the derelict in poor condition, I thought to myself that the ship had been there for an absolute age, yet in the space of a few short years since Alien it was oddly falling to pieces.

On the other hand, we're dealing with completely alien technology here. If the ship was biomechanically 'grown' or replicated, whatever you want to call it, maybe it can in a sense also 'die' under certain circumstances.

Some traits can skip generations. Others may or may not be triggered due to several factors like environment or upbringing or being generally predisposed. The xenomorph seemed intelligent and all about survival- with some malice from the get go. Not sure how much of those traits came from the host or were inherent to the creature.

I have yet to Read Michelle's work i really must do so.

In Context to your Topic, then this is KIND-OF what Dan O'Bannon  had as a idea of the Starbeast, that they can LIVE ON in a New Host and so have some kind of Genetic Memory which is NOT so FAR FETCHED as Ripley 8 had this and so maybe it is something the Xenomorph Possesses.

In Context to the OT... then i think its Plausible that some Psychological Traits are Passed on as well as Genetic, but i think the Beast/Survival and Procreation Instincts take over Mostly (by that a Face Hugged Mother Teresa may-not be a Loving Friendly Xenomorph LOL)

I dont mean to take this a BIT off TOPIC but i guess this is a Expansion of what your Suggesting...   so IF the Xenomorph can somehow Retain and Pass One Genetic Memory then if you could Figure Out HOW this happens, then it could be a KEY to Unlocking a Kind of After-Life/Immortality. 

Ripley was in EFFECT Dead.... Resurrected by her Xenomorph Infected DNA she managed to Regain some of her Memories.... if she Eventually Regained Most of her Memories then in EFFECT the Xenomorph had Granted Ripley a Reincarnation into a another LIFE.

IF this is a attribute of the Xenomorph or a Organism that Predated it, then in Context to the Engineers and Sacrifice what we could have NOW would be a attempt to use the Xenomorph, Black Goo or Organism that it all Originated From as a means to TRY and Unlock a Route to Reincarnation..... thus Immortality.

I think as far as a PLOT then this would have MERGED the World of Prometheus and Alien and indeed been somewhat Lovecraftian....   I always FELT that to use the Xenomorph purely as a Bio-Weapon has too many Pit-Falls and surely there are better ways of Defense..

But if this Beast as other Uses for Genetically trying to Gain some Traits from it, or IF indeed it could provide the KEY to passing on Genetic Memory then the Pursuit of the Beast makes much more Sense.

Great Topic for Discussion as Always ;)

@Chli

I apologize for  taking it OFF TOPIC, i was going to make a New Topic or look at another that discussed the LIKELIHOOD or NOT that the Cargo Hold would FIT inside the Derelict, but i noticed this Topic was more Active and Debated such things, as in Relation to the OT.

So with what i had done is to INDEED conclude that Forensically we should be looking at a UNDERGROUND Storage Facility and as such if this is the CASE then in Context to the OT... I think the Potential for their being something Salvageable after the Destruction of Hadleys Hope is Greatly Increased if we have a Underground Facility, compared to the Less Likely chance of Salvaging anything if the Cargo Hold was on-board the Derelict.

@Michelle

Certainly in Terms of the Story, i think its a case of Accepting what they are showing us and Inconstancy would have to be merely a Oversight..  The Derelict and Juggernaut are intended to be Similar they form a Purpose for Carrying Loads of Various Bio-Logical Warfare and so Internally they can be Configured different from Ship to Ship, also likely the Derelict could have been a Older or Newer Model but looking back prior to Alien Covenant you would be drawn to Conclude the Derelict was a Older Model that has been Stranded on LV-426 for a Long Long Time.  And so with the Image Below it could be a case of Same Purpose, just Newer Model and so there would be some Atheistic Differences, but as FAR as the Purpose and Internals then they are supposed to Perform a Similar/Same Task.  And rightfully so with what you mention, we should maybe NOT be drawn too much in Specifics and Differences as they are for the Story Purpose intended to be Very Similar, because they would NOT effect the Overall Plot/Story.

@Michelle

In Follow up to your Last Reply.. 

"I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict"

I think this is VERY Plausible and a Avenue for a Book or Movie, as i mentioned a Few Times before that in ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event, and so it could be a Attempt was made to DESTROY the Derelict that did-not do the JOB.

@Gavin

Indeed a Avenue could be to Explore a Salvage of the Cargo and WHAT would become of Contaminated Cargo from Radiation...   Some of the Newer Concept Works for Blomkamps Alien 5 do show signs of Mutations and so this could be the Result of a Contaminated Cargo after the Hadleys Hope Destruction, or Experimentation.

And so that leaves it OPEN to explore a Movie that goes back to the Derelict Post 2179 but prior to 2379 and so in Context to the OT its a case of is there anything to Salvage and what Condition are any Eggs that Remain.

Remember when Gearbox Software and SEGA included the 'pups' inside the derelict, obviously assuming before the movies release that they were Engineer/Space Jockey technology.

@chli,

The answers to the op really boil down to three answers...

#1 - Yes - If the derelict somehow avoided destruction from the atmosphere processor explosion, or if the eggs are indeed within a separate structure.

#2 - No - If the derelict was destroyed and the eggs were within the derelicts cargo hold.

#3 - If another movie chooses to return to LV-426 then it all depends upon what the studio/writer decides.

But IMO I still believe that if they do return to LV-426 the eggs should be contaminated forcing 'the powers that be' Weyland-Yutani?) to look elsewhere for more sources of the Xenomorph.

chli

As to your question are the Eggs still there the answer is its 2019 so Yes. (haha)

As to whether they will be there deep in the future. I think in the profoundly dysfunctional world of A L I E N I do not think mankind will ever learn its lesson. But in the even-handed world of P R O M E T H E U S, I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict.     

"I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar."

@BD

If I may I would like to unpack this statement. 

If you were making a presentation to a group of prop movie design workers your statement is indeed correct. The way the props were made in 1978 and then 2011 was not signed off on the basis of forensic similarity.

However, in terms of the story being told the derelict/juggernaut relationship is exactly the same as the jockey/engineer relationship. We as an audience should take them as the same.      

Here is why.

In the furious gods documentary, it is made very clear when they are replicating and when they are trying to be different. No one ever mentions making the Juggernaut smaller for the simple reason there is no reason to. It's considered to be the same craft.

To give a contra example they very deliberately evolved the design of the craft above the waterfall from originally being a Juggernaut to something different, it's in the Pre Viz, but when they decided that the Waterfall incident and its participants were separated by millions of years from the Moon guys and had a different agenda they went for something radically different.       

There is one final piece of evidence originally the craft that fell out of the sky was the derelict and there is no evidence they changed the design when the story was altered.

So your right it's not an identical prop but in story terms its the same craft with some internal modifications. Like the Derelict its a bomber just with a different Cargo.  

Thank you for the analysis, BigDave. I suppose we can't come any further than this. What is good is that another alien movie could go either way.

It would be acceptable that the movie had as a premise that it is, in fact, an underground facility which a group enters after digging up the Derelict from the devastation from the nuclear explosion.

It would, of course, also be possible to accept that the eggs are in a cargo hold in the Derelict.

But this topic was actually about whether the eggs are still there . . . :)

I was thinking the other day about some of the Images i made, and how its HARD to Judge due to Camera Angle of the Cargo Hold, so i made this Image to Estimate how many Section of the Egg Storage Chambers would FIT along the Width of the Derelict.

This ONLY shows that to Scale it would NOT Fit, but that does-not mean that it CAN or WILL only be explained as a Underground Storage Facility/Silo.

It could be just a matter of Accepting its OVERSIGHT or maybe we could Accept the Technology of the Cargo Hold is similar to that of the TARDIS from Dr Who?

Until we have a Conclusion to the Prequels that would Directly show us the Ship and Cargo Hold and WHERE/WHAT it is...  or UNTIL we have another Movie that Re-Visits the Derelict then its still OPEN to Debate unless we ACCEPT the Explanation that Ridley Scott has given and then Accept its a Oversight.

EDIT:

I will add that taking into account the Arms and Curve of the Ship then IF the Ship was 40ft Higher, then the Ship would FIT about 10 of those Egg Sections. But for this to WORK then it would mean the SHOT from ALIEN would have to ONLY show 3-4 Sections in that SHOT... i assume we can see AT LEAST about 10 Sections.

So a 40ft Taller Derelict that is 2-3X Wider would FIT the Cargo Hold...  

@hox

This is the Quickest thing to get out of the way, Certainly they could explain those who had Built/Created the Derelict have some kind of Technology that is like what the TARDIS used, i have suggested this a few times over the Years, such a Revelation would be a Convenience to the Plot/Discrepencies, its a case of would FANS start to say its NOT Original and is just going to RIP off Dr Who and be a Lazy Explanation... but its a Easy Explanation that would END any debates about the Size of the Hold and HOW it can not be part of the Ship...   and so i cant see WHY NOT as far as the Derelict having similar Technology.

@chli

I dont think its Impossible for the Pilot Chair to Retract into a PIT of Sorts....  Kane Descended right on the Edge of the Platform and he could have Descended at a Angle, or a way around could be like in this IMAGE.

@Michelle

Certainly the Vulva Openings in Prometheus seem to be about 28ft Total, in Alien they appear to be 20-22ft. The Entrances (bottom of Vulva's) seem to Start about 12ft off the Base of the Derelict (in Alien Rocks Obscure this) with Prometheus Juggernaut they appear to be about 20ft off the Ground.

These Entrances are still quite a bit Lower than the Mid-Section of the Ships, but with Prometheus we are shown the MAIN Entrance to the Juggernaut appears to be at what we would think is the REAR but turns out to be the Front.

What seems Strange is the Pilot Room seems Directly behind where that Entrance would be and so WHY does it seem the Prometheus Crew Enter at a Different Area?

I think as with ALIEN and the Entering the Ship Scene we are maybe NOT shown every Step they take on Film, but with Prometheus it would seem there is NOT much of a Walk from the Cargo Hold to the Bulkheads/Front of the Juggernaught.

And so looking at the Image it does-not make much Sense.. it must be the Entrance does-not Directly take you to the Pilot or Cargo Rooms, but it would Snake Around a bit...

So i have tried to think where the Prometheus Crew would have Entered and Walked to the Pilot Room, i then also Pin Pointed where the Covenant Crew would have Entered, which INDEED was a Bottom Layer as they Ascended up to get to the Pilot Chamber, but it seemed they also Descended at a Point too.

I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar.

However with the Juggernauts they appear to have Different Internal Layouts... this is a Error, but it is LIKELY done for the reasons you mentioned Michelle...

While we can Wonder otherwise WHY it seems they never paid attention to MATCH the Ships (Prometheus/Alien Covenant) there is NO reason why Internally the Ships can Differ, as a Example some of the Larger Aircraft that we have can be Same Model but Internally they are laid out Differently due to performing different Tasks.

Also who is to say the Engineers Technology means the Ships Internal Structure can Morph to Desired requirements for a Given Task.

In Closing.....

I have to agree with what you had USED in your work on Prometheus as far as the Ship should have had Cargo Holds to a Lower Level than the Pilot Chamber.

@BigDave, in the picture at the top of this thread, there is a tunnel in the far distance that snakes off to the left. It appears to have quite a lot of light coming from it. Any thoughts as to how that can be?

The whole (very large) thing is probably most easily explained by it being an underground cave complex that the ship is sitting on. But... here's one for your abacus!... if the inside of Dr. Who's Tardis can be a lot bigger than the outside, maybe the ship can be, too.

Gentlemen

Finally on the entrances.

On the original model, the vulva like entrance is at floor level and three circular elements almost at mid heights.

In Prometheus, the vulva entrances are considerably higher and D and E rappel down from the Vulva entrances at bridge level which would contradict the hologram images the Prometheus received with the heat signatures. (BD's point)

I kept with the original external design the Vulva entrances take you into the Cargo Bay you then in the standard variant climb a ships ladder (homage to Kane) on to the Bridge and the three circular elements are an emergency escape entrance and escape pods from the bridge. I found climbing ships ladders to the various levels communicated scale which works well in A. but is not there in P.    

chli

Spot on about the chair and the area where Kane descends into.

There are two points to this discussion:-

1) How do we interpret what we see which was the point of your posting?

2) Is it a relevant concern to each one of us?

My view on this subject that Ridley filmed a huge subterranean area which as the years went by became the Cargo of the derelict. That the matter is not forensically logical does not give me any concern nor I need to come up with plausible tenuous logic.

Quite separately from my view of the movies for my own vision I decided the consul, chair, propulsion and the origins of the craft can be wound into all the main character and story themes and all the design considerations feed into the story. 

Ingeniero was kidding but made a good point about Walter. Information and situations can change on a planet. Things may not be as hospitable for humans by the time they arrive. It might be a good idea to send Bishop, Call and Walter as the over all leaders and together could carry out navigation, exploration, recon and such with a human crew with different levels of expertise. They would be in hyper sleep pending the synths' navigation and assessment of the planet and situation to ensure their safety to carry out the mission. If it is ok, the crew would be awakened. If not, they could return home. I would not include Ash or David since they are basically corrupt in their own ways and may not hold the humans' safety as a priority due to Special Orders.