Comments (Page 193)

Very funny comments are here)

Ohh...thanks!

But wait a minute... I just read a snippet of "Alien Resurrection"'s plot on Wikipedia, and I remember I saw it before when I was a bit younger with my grandpa and dad... and I'm scarred for life XD 

I can try it again though, maybe I won't be as shook (Edit, NEVERMIND, I saw Prometheus, not Alien R. OOF) 

Thanks for the recommendations, DK.

Wonder how they studied Origae 6? With a space telescope?

That means the image is 1700 years old.....much can change in that time..Earth went from living under the stars to traveling to them in span.

Asteroid collision could have wiped the surface...happens on Earth and maybe the Origae system doesn't have a Jupiter to gobble up stray killer asteroids.

BigDave

I actually think that the original Alien monster looked more organic, more real and alive than the xenomorphs in AC. I think it might have to do with CGI not being used at the time. It was a man in a suit and you saw very little of the monster, but when you did, it looked real: smooth motions, drooling jaws etc.

Giger's art is biomechanical, and the creature doesn't look real in his art, not living, but the creature in the movie does.

BigDave

"All about everything."

One of the essential differences between the A L I E N franchise and the projected P R OM E T H E U S franchise is the former is grounded in a Universe of Mankind where the only thing that is out there is to coin a phrase "a noise in the attic" and the latter is saying Mankind is a foot note and everything is out there.

Once you take the latter on board its much easier to make sense of how the dark angels would have viewed us.

One of the unexpected pleasures of this project has been taking a scene from the movie and writing it down. I am just doing a final correction read through and have reached the point where Elizabeth gives birth but its scenes like David attending to Meredith when she wakes up which tell us so much about a potential creator/creation relationship. David is essentially a utility, in one of Damons scripts or IV's he describes David as a Toaster. So then apply that to what the Engineers thought of their creation out of rebellion, asking why did they come here is obvious, idol curiosity and to stir the pot. Its just its very hard for human beings not to be human centric in their view. 

I mentioned recently that D & E are not so much in love with each other but out of love with everything else.

It really begins with "what if they are no better than us" but twice Elizabeth reflects on the fact that she had very little in common with the six billion souls that Janek, Chance and Ravel save. David not only recognises in Elizabeth that she treats him entirely different to anyone has before but she shares his puzzlement with mankind.

Then go to the next level. If the dark angels made us then what about the other guys who travel the Universe Seeding worlds would they really be taking an interest in whether Samantha or Craig got their grades what would be the pre occupations of a God who uses knowledge to sustain the Universe through billions of years ? 

I like the story of battling different xenomorphs and the winner going after its creators. Sort of a revenge/just desserts type story.

Kamoebas V.6  and Flyleaf-Rapt0r  I would encourage you to watch the Quadrilogy (Alien through Resurrection). It seems you are into action maybe and the xeno itself so I would actually recommend watching Resurrection first. There are themes in that movie that are similar to the OT story. (You might even see an aqua xeno of sorts lol!)

Welcome to the forum and expressing interest into the franchise- it's never too late to watch!

Side note. I am not familiar with the Aqua and Killer Crab. I would sort of expect the Killer Crab to win if fighting under water- that is where it would have its best mobility along with claws and the tail with its spear. Crabs don't generally do well on land but are quite swift and efficient in their under water element. The Aqua Xeno appears to not have any kind of exo skeleton or protection on its limbs, so the KC should be able to shred its flesh?

Actually, a crab can be formidable on land too. Imagine if it was bred with a xenomorph:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QaAKi0NFkA

Love the ancient astronaut Nazca lines! That gets my vote.

I think it should be a lifeless world to save on budget.

I'm starting to think there would should be a security force among the Covenant colony? 

@hox

Yeah..I just re-watched the scene...Sounds like a bunch of writer/plot induced nonsense.

"Our super powerful data acquisition service only extends a couple of feet from the exterior of the ship.....perhaps we should have upgraded to a ham radio?"

I'd Rather have had MUTHUR tell them it was an unessential signal and to continue on their mission....but that might bring up a MUTHUR can't be trusted plot line.

"What are you hiding MUTHUR?!"

@MonsterZero, some kind of account was given in the movie as to why the Planet 4 signal wasn't picked up by the ship. Something about Tennessee being beyond the extent of their internal communication buffers, or something like that.

Should I get into Alien?

I like xenomorphs, I think they're cool

But I'm a baby and I probably couldn't get through 1 movie

oof big words

Certainly some Remnants of a Long Lost Civilization with the remains of Hangers and other Landing Platforms/Run Ways would be Interesting.

I think its always Interesting to Speculate about the Xenomorph and especially as far as a Engineered Weapon.

So those who would Create/Engineer such a Organism would surely like to Experiment with Different Versions and put them to BATTLE so they can then see which Experiment/Hybrid would be the more Superior in Application

"Put simply Prometheus the Movie is a morality tale about hubris on every single level"

+

"Jon Sphaits makes it clear when describing the choice of the title that it is about rebellion, theft of technology and punishment"

Totally Agree this is how i see the Movie too.

The whole Christ Aspect i am Glad they toned away from that, the Notion that RS had instead implied he was a Emissary i find is more Interesting, and has some applications.

The David and Sexual Desires is Interesting as we see David Lacks any Sexual Organs and  Hormones and so i also think that it would be ODD for him to have such Desires...  i think maybe he could be Frustrated that he Cant Create, if he Deems that the Inability to Create is what makes him just a TIN CAN... but then i think he would Pursue other Less Natural ways to Create, which we had seen in Alien Covenant.  And what we see with what the Engineers had also been up to.

With Dr Shaw i feel she had Accepted that she could-not Create, i think if she could have Bore Child then it maybe could have Effected her Reasons to go for Answers... by having NO ability to Naturally Create Life, she had NOTHING but the Pursuit of WHY these Would-be Gods wanted to Created and then Destroy us.

So i found it Interesting as far as if David started to Feel Compassion for her, that WHAT if he had suggested he could TRY and find a way to allow her to Give Birth... to Start a New Eden.....  would she have REJECTED him?  David seemed to have indicated as such.

But in this is in Context to how it turned out, and not as in Terms of HOW you would have Chosen to Take things.

I think its Very Interesting as far as what you are Choosing as far as to Tackle a lot of the Subjects at hand.

When Speculating about the Answers, in Part i was always drawn to our Creation not being much different to Davids, and i think a Good Analogy would also apply to the PLOT of the Planet of the Apes Reboot.... there was NO LOVE in the Artificial Evolution of that Chimp, and Science would just Further Evolve and see what these Improvements would allow, NOT to the Chimps benefit but as merely a way to HIGHLIGHT just how Great the Genetic Engineering of those Scientists really is....

What would be the END GAME to that Plot?  it surely would not have been to allow such Chimps like Caesar to become a New Branch of Humanity where they can Live Among Mankind as another Race of Humanity... Nope i feel it would have been to put them to USE for Tasks so that Mankind would NO-LONGER have to do them... much like how Androids would be USED.

And so this is HOW i mainly viewed our Relationship with the Engineers as Intended by them..  By that i am talking Broadly, as far as the Applications of the Discovery of the Agent ALZ-112 not so much its Original Intention.. so i was drawn to the Engineers motives being similar in that our Creation was done ONLY for some Benefit for them on ONE hand and maybe to Highlight what they COULD do on the other.

And so Fundamentally  "The Engineers did not create us out of love but curiosity. They did not visit it us because they loved us they visited us to toy with us give us a bit of rope and see whether we hung ourselves"  I agree with this ;)

KENNER ALIEN TOYS! I always wanted these as a kid

@MonsterZero

The TWO Xenomorphs is interesting to Ponder, as i said before in other topics the Lazy Route would be that they Produce a Egg Laying Queen... but i dont think Ridley Scott would have gone the Camerons Queen route.  But as far as the Egg Morph i think that is something he could have Explored.  The other way to Mass Produce a Xenomorph from TWO would be IF he has any Black Goo, he could then use this to obtain and then merge the Xenomorph Traits to either those Embryo's or even Egg Cells.  And so i would assume we would have seen ONE or BOTH of those Methods of getting more Xenomorphs and NOT any Camerons Queen.

@hox

Indeed such a Plot (Upload his Soul) could become a Plot Convenience for any eventual Conclusion, as it would NOT be dependent on having to re-cast Micheal Fassbender.   I would suspect that any AI based sequel could indicate a Transcendence of Davids Soul to the Company Computer Systems and so in effect MUTHUR could become David.  And so a Company who at some point is RAN by the AI of David would explain the Agenda of Obtaining the Xenomorph without any Concerns of the Human Cost.

@Leto

I think it really depends on WHERE they would take us, it does appear that RS had intended at least TWO more movies before we discover who is in that Chair on the Derelict.   It appears that Oriage-6 will be the setting of at least the Next Movie, and the Incoming Engineers could likely had been the Source of the Derelict.

For the Prequels to Chronologically Conclude with the Derelict on LV-426, then a Engineer Ship would either have to be heading to LV-223 or leaving LV-223 at the Climax of the Prequels before that SHIP is FORCED to Land on LV-426

But thats ONLY if they Continue with Chronologically Connecting to ALIEN.

Neutrino burst:

I find it more interesting that MUTHUR didn't alert them to Shaw's signal. Tennessee had to pick it up on his suit! Mother probably deemed it unnecessary for the intended mission....then probably relayed it Earth?

Its garbage...

By the way,this is what the Xenomorphs i chose look like:

Aqua Alien

Killer Crab Alien

tbh

I don't like idea that next film will be "about AI". It just sounds boring. And inspires thoughts about another android-show, what AC has already done. Yeah, yeah - AI it's not only androids, but whatever you want. It seems that Ridley has his own meaning of AI.

And I don't like idea that David return to LV-223 or stack on Planet-4. It's just a waste of expectations and marking time. It must be Origae-6; possibly with connection to LV-426, but not necessary.

BigDave

As you know my style on the forum is to offer my conclusions and why, rather than your speculative approach of rehearsing all the potential questions. 

So I will answer your speculations and provide answers and why.

There are many sources relating the story of Prometheus, some of which are contradictory,

This is a quote from a paper on the link between Prometheus his brother and Frankenstein. The argument the writer uses to make his point is based on this

Percy Shelley describes Prometheus as a character “susceptible of being described as exempt from the taints of ambition, envy, revenge, and a desire for personal aggrandisement”.

So one needs to interpret whether the film and its title come from this particular notion/ variation of the myth and the answer is NO. 

Jon Sphaits makes it clear when describing the choice of the title that it is about rebellion, theft of technology and punishment. That is the Prometheus that the film deals with and that was the guiding principle for what the travellers come into. 

That the Engineers visited earth is a given in the film and the book. 

The earth is a petri dish in which mankind is an experiment according to the narrative. 

The story of Weyland/David is a personal metaphor of our relationship with our creators and David has been upgraded 8 times and Weyland does not love David he improves him. He revels in his achievement but humiliates him (in the holographic speech)

The facts are that mankind learned to read write and kill with even more ruthless efficiency in double quick time in a 10,000 year span from 18,000 to 8,000 years ago which is a point that Elizabeth in my story is pondering as we come across her for the first time in my book. 

So taking these three things together the mode of creation by these dark angels is out of a desire for self expression. That self expression reaches its Zenith or Nadir, depending how you look at it, when they decided to pursue an upgrade 2,000 years ago.

In between our creation they visit us until the point 2,000 years ago when they wanted to destroy us.

The visits represent observation, a desire to show off their knowledge and see what we do with it. Prima facie they did not come to bring love healing and grace because thats not where we ended up. We got more knowledgeable more fractionalised and learned to kill each other with more efficiency.

The film makers considered looking at whether Christ was the trigger, the end point and rejected it as a more general sense of displeasure. But thats a speculative conversation over a  latte with a journalist none of this comes out in the Furious Gods what comes out is what the Moon was doing was wrong and the Engineers got bitten on the bum.   

Personal

I cannot see how you can ascribe Christ to the notion that he is connected to dark angels who make monsters. A very interesting paper was written at the time by a catholic theologian who made the point that christ was left out, thats what Lindelof said, but 2,000 was deliberate and that the message of the cross would be seen to be caught up in the broader explanation of what would be offered in the second film. He makes a distinction between the Gnostic Engineers of the Moon (who were wiped out) and the Universal Engineers of the Waterfall Incident of millions of years ago and there relationship would provide an explanation of how the Cross fits into the story. Whatever story one choses to write that supposition is logical and coherent.

David 

Again to retain the integrity of the movie Prometheus I started from the point that David did not have a sexual agenda or in robot terms it was not part of his programme. What he did have is a capacity for understanding human emotions and began to build up a series of experiences which he could use and as Michael said he played it that they had cognitive meaning to him. Charlie began to irritate him but he did not target him he just happened to be there. Whereas by the end of the movie he wanted his parent Weyland dead. Don't we all? No David. 

So the David that Elizabeth heals/repairs does not have a sexual agenda. 

Elizabeth 

There is nothing to suggest she wants to be cured of being barren she just offers a sense of regret in the movie. However events overtake her and like everyone else on the journey she receives her answer but it isn't quite what they asked for. 

In summary in my view Elizabeths journey is a philosophical one looking for a complete answer not a complete body. The Mutagen (of Prometheus) hijacks her and we never got to see if that had any more application than in the Crossing were she was dying of it according to her director and the actress that played her.

Summary

The Engineers did not create us out of love but curiosity. They did not visit it us because they loved us they visited us to toy with us give us a bit of rope and see whether we hung ourselves. 

David did not have a sexual agenda.

Elizabeth did not desire to make good her barren body.  

David should die off in a viral video like Shaw did. I wasn't a big Shaw fan but the character deserved a better send off. As for Shaw, so for David.

MonsterZero Good choice! And that basket ball shot........

Happy birthday to the true queen! Gonna watch Alien:Resurrection to celebrate. 

'Ridley Scott had claimed the Next Movie would be about AI, and What Kind of a World that David would Create and NOT about the Xenomorph he had also said the Replicants are a AI'

With 2 embryo's,  that's 2 xenomorphs?.so yeah...I'd say less xeno action...Unless the laboratory aboard the Covenant is something special or a modded food replicator(joke).

David: Space Jockey 

David has already crashed(or been shot down)a juggernaut! I can't believe they would repeat that idea?

I mean, he crashes one in AC and another in AC2?!?

I really hope they don't do this.

Surprise

I'm with you, BigDave, on the idea of the Space Jockey being an ancient race. I've always thought that would be a more interesting backdrop to the story.

Interesting point about David perhaps uploading his 'soul' from one creation to another. That would actually be a get-out option if he wasn't available to take part in another movie. I'd still like to see Fassbender back in action, though.

Happy Birthday Miss Weaver

David could still end up the Space Jockey and have it FIT with the Prometheus Themes that are Overlooked.

David is a Creation of Mankind... yet he is Created as SUPERIOR in many ways.

LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Original Engineers, those on Planet 4 are and yet they look In-Superior.

The Deacon was worshiped in some way, it was indicated by David that "sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy" and so this could imply those Engineers saw the Deacon as a Natural Order of Evolution they had Engineered.

David had experimented on many things on Planet 4, but saw the Xenomorph as his Masterpiece.

So what we have really is the Pursuit of Perfection from Sub Creating.

Ridley Scott had claimed the Next Movie would be about AI, and What Kind of a World that David would Create and NOT about the Xenomorph he had also said the Replicants are a AI

when he told Daniels i will TUCK the Children in, before he Regurgitated those Embryo's then this all adds up to some Plans for those Embryo's

It is likely David would UPLOAD himself into a Walter Spare Body made from Parts...

IF we see David goes on to Engineer/Create a Humanoid Figure that he sees as Superior, then a ULTIMATE Hubris for him could come from either.

1) This Race Rebels...

2) He Uploads his Soul to this Creation

IF he say does Option (2) and Creates a 10ft Superior Humanoid, with somewhat Regenerative Ability where he would see this Physical Body as Superior or more Beneficial than his OWN (like maybe he can Procreate in this Body)   Then for him to have his SOUL in this NEW Form could come back to BITE HIM if he was to be Infected with the Xenomorph!

I would NOT have put this past being similar to the Plans...

But i would much Rather the Space Jockey being some Ancient Race who have some Connection to the Engineers.

Regarding FTL Communications we had that in ALIENS, contact between Hadleys Hope and Weyland, but this is set 85 Years after Dr Shaws Warning.   I would doubt that Contact from the Prometheus to Earth would have taken 39 Years we can assume it would take at least TWO Years though.

Regarding the Neutrino Burst it was a Plot Device, and maybe something NOT SO thought out... they should have indicated Gamma Ray Damage.

Its indicated it was purely Coincidence via the Birth of a New Star.  The Covenant was likely just on its way to Origae-6.   How did David use his Security Code, thats something for a Conspiracy, he could have Programed that into the Ship in a Period of Time that was NOT shown in the Course of the Movie.  But to do this he would have had to use Walters Security Codes and so we have a bit of Plot Hole, where we can ask HOW did he obtain those and YET fail to obtain knowledge about the Cabin on the Lake... Likely Answer he only Probed Walter for Specific Information.

It would be ODD for David to issue a Warning (Derelict) and then if he had a Change of Heart then WHY not Transmit it into a Language that Humans would Understand?

So whatever Route they take, i think it would be IDEAL to keep the Space Jockey and the SOS as None Human, None Android and also NOT by something David would Create in Future.... and so keep it as a Engineer unless we reveal another Ancient Species for the Space Jockey.

'Yes FTL communications is canon as evidenced in Aliens and Covenant.'

Ahh. Thanks.

David as the space jockey....He could of had passengers(other than the eggs!)? The derelict on LV-426 wasn't thoroughly explored by the Nostromo....There could still be Engineers or humans still in cryo chambers? Maybe the passenger(s) turned on the beacon and then died/rescued.

One thing about David possibly being the Space Jockey on LV-426. I don't think that could be true. He's not stupid. Why would he transmit (or allow to be transmitted) a warning message from the derelict ship? Ripley decoded the message and interpreted it as a warning. That's not David's intent at all if he wants the destruction of mankind / Engineers. Unless, of course, he had a change of heart. Anything's possible when you go crazy, I suppose. And he was crazy.

"Neutrino burst is not a wall or wave. > It is a sphere with a very small diameter".

This is not true. The result of a cataclysmic event (e.g. a supernova) can send out a blast of neutrinos that expands as a shell that increases in diameter forever. It thins out over time, obviously but can travel right across the universe.

Where Covenant gets it quite wrong is that neutrinos very rarely interact with regular matter and would not mess about with the spaceship in the way that it was portrayed in the movie. Neutrinos stream out from the centre of our Sun all the time in vast quantities as a result of nuclear reactions in the Sun's core. They travel straight out from the core through half a million miles of the Sun, 8 minutes through space, right through the Earth and right through your body. Trillions pass through your body every second and you don't know about it. Neutrinos are absolutely tiny. A neutrino is to an atom as an atom is to a solar system. On Earth we have to fill massive tanks with special chemicals to detect solar neutrinos. If we're lucky, a few detection events occur every year. That's how feebly they interact with regular matter.

2) Had the Company prior to 2122 detected Dr Shaws Warning and WHY had they NOT been back to LV-223 (or could they have?).

3) and WHY had it not been Investigated between 2094 and 2105 (or had it?).

4) And then WHY had they not been to Investigate prior to 2122 with the Nostromo (or had they?)

I think, we can use Alien: Covenant as a hint. This is so strange that Covenant flying across the huge space and get damage by "immossible" neutrino burst. > Neutrino burst is not a wall or wave. > It is a sphere with a very small diameter. > This sphere went straight to the ship. > In the end, the crew received the message from the planet, which was located a couple of weeks from them. By cosmic standards, this is closer than the distance between your head and the monitor.

Coincidence or someone's plan? David activate some Engineers technologies? Or WY sent Covenant in the proposed location of the disappearance of Prometheus?

Or both. WY sent Covenant as a gift for David? The "Covenant" word also mean "contract", "deal". This can be the one huge deal between WY and David. And, of course, David wants to destroy the humanity, but it's his wishes. This does not contradict the fact that he can work on WY. This can be subconsciously, with hidden subroutines.

I try not to get caught up in time lines. I watch the movies for what they are and see that Prometheus is first followed by AC and then the Quadrilogy. Theatrically, it seems we need a follow up to AC if nothing else for David's story arc. 

The above posts suggest time travel whether by FTL or worm holes. Those would be new concepts to pitch a follow up to Disney- whom already seems lukewarm to Alien at best. Theatrically, I think we need Awakening (whatever that might be) or a sequel to Resurrection. Anything else should be explored via streaming services imo.

Yes FTL communications is canon as evidenced in Aliens and Covenant.

I don't know if FTL communication is canon or not in the Alien verse?

Shaw's message is going to take 39 years to reach Earth...Maybe the relay can open a wormhole(or some other trope) and transmit instantly?

I hope for no FTL communication....feels more isolated...you are truly on your own. Only way to deliver a message quickly is a fast vessel/probe.

Prometheus should have been a sequel of Alien.

Yes! Works for me.

Consent 

Within the narrative there are issues about non consensual demands without explanation of the consequences.

However this is really about :-

“Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay / To mould me Man, did I solicit thee / From darkness to promote me?”

Adam makes an error and is banished from Paradise, well excuse me God you made me. The creature in Frankenstein did not ask to be made and he is even more angry with his creator. David has only been active seconds, and much like Frankenstein, Weyland has an instant but different reaction he sees a danger. 

So in an intelligent creation is there a danger that those whom are "Manufactured" and for a purpose might broadly speaking operate in the same area and deal with the same dilemma. 

What strikes me about the Moon is there is a good deal of self expression going on (The Fresco's, The Mural)  and given it has been left unattended for 2,000 years no one else is interested. At an authorial level I took that to mean they wished to express themselves through sub creation and the ultimate expression of that, the creatures in the Mural, is a living entity capable of procreation based on the Riff at the end. These guys on the Moon had created us who were capable of self sustaining life and the deacon race who could achieve the same, but in their eyes better. So life is created which is self sustaining (Not an accidental parasite) and would not ask consent of its parents but the reality in the story is none of this has consent.

So what does have consent in an intelligent creation and why?

How do you create, without love, and rub along amicably.

We know mankind creates across a range of emotional reasons and we do not rub along amicably.

So what would a universe look like where the issue of consent did not create a problem between the origin creators and the created, because its not relevant. Our proxy's for looking at this are David and Elizabeth. 

As for "is creation violent?" I develop that theme out of the idea Ridley offered they are aggressive f.....

In my vision, you receive various forms of sexual knowledge in the first movement. Vickers/Janek, Charlie/Elizabeth and a nasty three way exposé which includes the creature.

In the second movement its all about the revelation of creative knowledge how it has been applied why it went wrong (on the Moon) and how Elizabeth reacts to it.  

All the examples of creative knowledge are pursued in a profoundly aggressive manner driven by a desire for self expression.

However the most interesting example is back in the first movement where there is a confluence of creative and sexual knowledge where Elizabeth gives birth to a horribly deformed child which merges the two elements. In that instance the child immediately wants to destroy the parent. Is that a comment on creation out of chaos or the paranoid world view that all children want to destroy their parents (which actually isn't correct).     

David and Elizabeth (Bigdave)

In a universe where creation has gone astray and we have a barren woman and a brilliant android incapable of finding meaning in a creative sense, you can pervert the rules of creation and make them a new Adam and Eve but that seems to me to be to easy and merely the inverse of the Covenant narrative where the android stole her non performing reproductive organs and made the creature out of this and other ingredients to get more bums on seats.

All I will say say is one reader said the outcome for them was incredibly sad and another a wonderful vision of the future. In other words their journey is bound up with so many elements that it depends on the reader as to whether what happens to them is profoundly sad profoundly encouraging or even both.

If one believes in nothing at all then reading the books has no point at all because it isn't about nothing at all its about something. Put simply when you have a very broad scope the responses tell you more about the reader than whats read. To elaborate on this.     

If people do not like science fiction thats fine.

If people want endless rehashes of A L I E N and A L I E N S tropes thats fine. 

If people are profoundly "religious" and find you tinkering with God, Christ and creation and find that blasphemous thats fine. 

If people are certain that Darwin was 100% right thats fine. 

However if you want to take human nature, the big questions and offer to explain why we are the way we are and its neither Machines or Abrahamic Gods but essentially about what is morality ? Then you might be curious.

Put simply Prometheus the Movie is a morality tale about hubris on every single level from Fifield right up to the Dark Angel so what I found profoundly amusing and fascinating is how we react to this story.

You could argue Sir Ridley was also guilty of hubris but its quite clear he knew the risks he was taking and to be fair he nearly pulled it off, its the top grossing movie of the franchise it doesn't belong in, say some, the perfect hubristic comment on Monster Love.

Nice.