Comments (Page 211)

I think you are all fucking idiots. You can clearly see that as Walter is punching david towards the end that fluid sprays out with each punch. It is quite obvious from watching based on both the sound of his voice, and the liquid coming out that David was on his last leg. Plus every movie does this. They make up this implausible situation that as someone is on top beating the shit out of someone by some miracle they dont notice them grabbing an object and allow themselves to get hit? That is so fucking stupid. No one could be that stupid in a fight. 

I forgot to add that with Prometheus it was indicated the Entrance to the Juggernaught was actually at what MOST would have assumed to be the REAR of the Ship, but it was revealed the SHIP flies different to what we would have assumed at the time prior to Prometheus.

I have indicated as such with the RED Arrow on the Derelict.  Something to Consider is Externally in Prometheus we saw NO clear Doorway at that part of the Ship (but it is where they Entered) we also saw NO clear Door/Mechanism from where David had opened up to Drop the Black Goo in Alien Covenant.

So its LIKELY that the Technology allows for Doors/Holes to SEAL UP and seem Concealed, and so we cant rule out the same for Interior Doors on the Derelict.

It makes sense as looking at the Entrance Point the Crews of the Nostromo and Anesidora used they are NOT Practical for use by a Space Jockey as shown in the image above.   And so as Prometheus Indicated there must be a Entrance the Space Jockey could use at the other END of the Ship, that maybe Conceals itself when Closed.

"he wonders if this is really a part of the ship or a cave beneath it"

It appears the author is Toying with the Ambiguity to STIR-UP some doubt/debate in that they (Marlow) could not tell if it was a Cave or NOT.... just as Kane thought it looked like some kind of Cave.

So this as well as the other comments do-not give any Clear or Concrete Clues to what the Space Jockey (apart from indicating its a Suit) is or the Cargo Hold

So these are Helpful in they allow for the Debate to carry on and DONT contradict what ever they will do IF/WHEN we get to Finally See the Derelict Event.  In doing so it leaves those WHO eventually Answer that Event to have the Freedom to Explore it in a Number of ways, compared to if the NOVEL have Concrete Proof that the CARGO HOLD was NOT part of the Ship and say Concrete Proof the Ship had been there for Thousands of Years.

As this would Contradict the Path that Ridley Scott had seemed to be taking, which if we get a Conclusion and it goes against what the Alien Isolation Novel shows, then it would essentially place that Novel as NOT-CANON.

The way it seems to have been covered, leaves it OPEN to explain the Derelict in a number of ways, IF we ever get to EXPLORE it on Screen..... or IF not then it allows it to be a Ambiguous Mystery.

I have not read any Novels apart from ALIEN and ALIENS, so i cant comment on the Ramp.  I think certainly there had to be a way those Eggs got on the Ship.  The way this happened and lay-out really depends on what the Purpose was for.

It is indicate the Eggs are a Bio-Weapon that was intended to be USED, and we have covered HOW the Eggs would be deployed before, i cant see them being DROPPED down, certainly NOT from any Height.

We have to ASSUME there is a way to Access the Cargo Hold from inside the SHIP.  As this could be a Plausible way that the Space Jockey got infected by his OWN Cargo.  The other option would have to be that a Face Hugger had got loose and  found a way to the Space Jockey away from the Cargo Hold.

Regarding the MASK, then indeed if we are looking at the Space Jockey as NOT a Suit then it does get around HOW the Face Hugger could get to the Pilot.

But something to Consider is Prometheus were we saw the Engineer got into the Seat and the Seat Attached the Suit to the Engineer.  So maybe the Derelict Pilot Chair functions the SAME, i would assume so.

"Somebody must’ve knocked the door off”

I am going to assume the NOVEL is recounting THIS Mission from the Game.  I wonder HOW different the Novel describes the Event and Layout compared to the Game, as in the Game they Enter via the Same openings that the Nostromo Crew do, only they Follow the Tunnel around and it Gradually leads to the Pilot Room, it appears the Entrance Point to the Pilot Room from this TUNNEL has NO kind of Door.

The only visible other Door Ways are the one that leads to the Beacon and again this has a similar TUNNEL to the Entrance and again NO visible Door.

Thats not to discount what the Novel is describing, just saying the Derelict Beacon Mission shows NO signs of a DOOR..   Was Foster just making a Assumption, or are there indications that there should have been a Door?

In ALIEN we never got to Pan around the Room to see its Layout and Doors,  however with Aliens: Colonial Marines we also visit the Derelict were it indicates there are Multiple Passage Ways on the Ship, and some do lead down to the CARGO HOLD, it also shows 2-3 Large Doorways that connect to the Pilot Room. The Aesthetic of the Ship is a little less Organic than we see in ALIEN and the Alien Isolation Game but not as Mechanical as in Prometheus/Alien Covenant.

The Interior to the Alien Colonial Marines Derelict scene is MASSIVE.. much Larger than the Interior of the Juggernaught and yet the Juggernaught is Larger (Externally) than the Derelict., but the same can be said for the CARGO HOLD in the Movie ;)

I dont think we should consider Alien Colonial Marines as Canon as far as the Lay-out unless the Engineers/Space Jockey use the same Technology that Dr Who does with his TARDIS

But considering some parts of that game i would assume there would be Entrances to the Pilot Chamber that are NOT like in Alien Isolation (Space Jockey would not FIT).  And its also likely there is a Route to the CARGO HOLD which we would ASSUME would have a Door that can be Closed.

If the Engineer got hugged before he got into the chair - no problem.

Well, the hole could be a “plot convenience” but there might as well be a ramp down to the cargo hold just around the corner (which in fact it is in some of the novels). The hole makes sense in the light of when Alien was made.

When Alien was made, the Space Jockey was a “fossilized” (long dead) extraterrestrial creature. This being didn’t notice the hole or was too much in a hurry to do anything about it. He could then have sat in his seat when a face-hugger crawls up through the hole and attaches itself to his face. When the pilot wakes up, later on, he starts to get chest pain and crash lands on the nearest planet (or moon) which happens to be LV-426.

However, with Prometheus, the Space Jockey turns into a suit and a mask and the problem arises how could a facehugger attach itself to the Engineer’s face without any damage to the mask?

Another thing: the eggs in the egg chamber aren’t “placed” neatly in rows like you would do, as a gardener, if you grow vegetables e.g. The ramps are placed symmetrically but not the eggs.

Another thing thats maybe a Oversight...

In the Alien Isolation Derelict Mission, there is a LOT of Equipment/Gear at the Scene, these were NOT brought on by Marlow and his Team!

Yet Dallas and his TEAM did-not bring No-Where near as much with them either!

Merely Oversight, Inconsistency? (Franchise has a Number of them).  And so Games Developers could make same Mistakes.

OR had someone else been there after the Nostromo and before the Anesidora?

"And another thing: If there's a connection to LV-223, wouldn't there be urns (filled with pathogen) instead of eggs in the cargo hold?"

This is a VERY valid point at the Time of Prometheus.

Certainly there was a Connection... Alien Engineers and Genesis did-not have Urns as Cargo they had various Holds that contained Variations of Xenomorph Eggs.  There was Urns elsewhere but they Contained a Method (Nano-Scarabs) that would Pass On traits of the Xenomorph.

Prometheus was Ambiguous, it could only lead us to Conclude that maybe some of the Experiments were LOADED onto the Derelict Class Ships... or that Eggs were taken from the Derelict Class Ships to Experiment with.

We have seen those Urns can Leak, also we see they can Disintegrate (Alien Covenant) under certain conditions.  So we CANT rule out the Urns Leaking and Dissolving and being Infected and the Result is those Eggs, as the Neomorph Spores likely Resulted from Leaked Black Goo.

However i would FIND such a Random Event that would lead to HOW those Eggs seemed to be Arranged in more Uniform Rows... as NOT Plausible.

Ridley Scott had Confirmed the Space Jockey Event back in 2012 he then further added more detail in 2013 as he SUGGESTED that something in the CARGO-HOLD had Evolved and got to the Pilot.

This could be indicated as Urns that become Eggs, even via a more Plausible Explanation i gave above this is a bit ODD. 

It could also be considered that he had been infected by something from the URNS elsewhere that had Evolved into a Organism and Infected the Space Jockey.... this would maybe have us Wonder if this Organism then Burnt the Hole down to the Cargo Hold and LAID the Eggs.

Again i DONT buy into that because of HOW the Eggs were in Uniform Rows to a degree and the Blue-Myst.

The ONLY way that makes sense is the Eggs had been Transported to the Cargo Hold at some point.

I think if we can be Honest Movies have Flaws and some IN-Continuities and ALIEN was not alone with this, things change during Production and then some things are NOT completely thought out...  a sometimes things are added as Plot Convenience but then they are NOT that well Planed, because its Considered they dont really matter, there could be just Small Details that should be just OVERSIGHT.

Now i dont want to change this to another Egg Hold debate so i am only just pointing out that LIKELY that Set-Production began with the Notion of a Separate Egg Silo, which was Merged as Part of the Ship due to Budget/Time Restraints...  which then you needed a PLOT CONVENIENCE to get from the PILOT Room to the CARGO Hold below and this is LIKELY were the HOLE was Created, as a Plot Convenience, where they maybe just Never gave what caused it much Thought at the time.

Some Good points about the Hole Size/Shape, you would assume a Chest Buster or Face Hugger would NOT make such a Hole.   Even the Chest Buster was to Scale with the Space Jockey so 250% Larger than a Human Chest Buster i am NOT sure it would make such a Hole.

The area where the Hole had happened is like a Layered Hole prior to the Acid Burn.

So a way that HOLE would make sense would be IF the area was Filled with Acid like substance that Filled the area to a Level before it Started to Dissolve through the Floor!

Considering this as a Good Explanation could lead us to Speculate that the HOLE was made on Purpose, but by WHO and WHEN?

It would Likely be after the Derelict had been there and the Space Jockey Chest Burster, as that makes more sense than the Hole being there Before the Space Jockey got to his Seat..

Which i why i STARTED this TOPIC were we could discus a Idea about a Event that happened after the Space Jockey Event, indicating the HOLE had happened at a Latter Point.

However.... Sabotage?  that cant be RULED-OUT for example, maybe the Space Jockey had arrived to his Pilot Chair and saw that HOLE and realized that would Compromise his Mission so then he went off to Quarantine the Ship on LV-426.   The Questions this would raise would be....

HOW does a Face Hugger infect a Masked Engineer/Being (they can but we see NO Evidence of the Mask being Damaged unlike Kanes).

WOULD the Engineer/Being be so Stupid to walking about the Room with NO MASK after encountering the HOLE?

@Leto, I don't believe chli was suggesting that urns would turn into eggs.

I think the idea for the hole was that it was made by a face hugger or burster from the Jockey. It was a clean and large hole though. If the bugger did it, I would expect to see some sort of trail. Sabotage of some type seems plausible.. But by what or whom?

Based on current posts, it seems reasonable that the prequels are pretty far removed from the Quadrilogy. 

That hole idea is important though. It looks too perfect- I doubt the movie folks thought much about it at the time.

And another thing: If there's a connection to LV-223, wouldn't there be urns (filled with pathogen) instead of eggs in the cargo hold?

No. Just no. Urns turning into eggs - is more silly than egg bombing. Just imagine and laugh.

Regarding “the hole”, I think it’s too big and symmetrical (a square or rectangle) to have been made by a facehugger (climbing up and burning through the floor). Wouldn’t it have been much smaller, just so the facehugger could squeeze through? It’s big enough for people with spacesuits to climb through, perhaps even big enough for Engineers? Another possibility would be that there was a hatch which has either been opened or removed (this could suggest sabotage).

And another thing: If there's a connection to LV-223, wouldn't there be urns (filled with pathogen) instead of eggs in the cargo hold?

This is why Isolation works. It fits in with the series without interfering with the movies. 

I think Certainly it helps to clear that up... and as daliens had said this as Canon covers up the Derelict Signal prior to Hadleys Hope.

It throws us a Stick to open up the Mystery for debate by Virtue of inferring a 16ft Pilot, and that it appears to be there a LONG TIME... but these are by No Means a indication to Disprove the Prequel route that Ridley Scott was taking, as the Conclusion could introduce a 16 Ft Engineer and maybe explain WHY it looked so Aged for not being there for that Long.

But it also at present gives hope that the Prequel Route of Alien Covenant cant lead to ALIEN as far as Derelict/Space Jockey.

so as SM had pointed out accepting the Novel does-not really Effect the Outcome of the Derelict Event.. this still remains a Mystery at Present.

And Perhaps thats how it should Remain ;)

Everything mentioed in the OP supports what we know - Jockey is an Engineer in a suit; while maintaining the ambiguity of how the Derelict got there and when.

I don't see a problem.

I will add that there are Differences between the Derelict and Juggernaught and Unless its a Big Oversight....  they are NOT the same Ship.

Differences are not Limited to.

*Size and Dimensions of the Ships (External/Internal)

*Slight Aesthetic Differences (External/Internal) 

*Different Layout Inside.

*Slight Differences to the Chair/Controls

*Differences to Pilot Suit/Size

Ridley Scott had said that they are Related, like Brothers and he said that MAYBE the Juggernaught and Derelict are Separated by a Few Hundred Years, this could mean they are a Different Model, like how you could take say a 1970s Mustang compared to a 2010's Mustang.

This does-not change how the Derelict could be on LV-426 for Thousands of Years or 10-15 Years... as they could introduce in the Alien Covenant Sequels a different Version of Juggernaught, and Larger Pilot that FIT more with the Aesthetic/Size of the Derelict.

Or they could just Give us a Juggernaught, Load it with Eggs and show it Head down to LV-426 and show the Space Jockey Suit as the same as in Prometheus and 8-9ft Tops and SIMPLY not care about any Aesthetic/Size Differences and it would be just a Oversight!

I hope if we get to that POINT they are not so LAZY! but in doing this would leave it OPEN to Argue that this CANT be the Space Jockey Event.

I also hope what ever route they take... be it SHOW that indeed as of 2105 there is NO Derelict/Eggs on LV-426 or they Indicate that there INDEED are a Ship/Eggs a LONG TIME before Prometheus...

I just hope they Respect the other and try and Tidy Up some of the Inconsistency.  So if we go for the DAVID Creator or he Simply Created the Proto-morph, then i HOPE they have a Good Story and show us a SHIP and PILOT that matches the Size/Aesthetic of the Derelict/Space Jockey and maybe come up with a Good Reason WHY it looked like they had been there a LONG TIME.

If they INDICATE or Prove the Eggs and Derelict have been there for a LONG TIME and that David did-not/could-not have Created those Xenomorphs, then i hope they come up with some Explanation to WHAT/HOW it is that David had Created Similar.  And hopefully allow them to Follow what happens to the Covenant and allow David to then Evolve his Xenomorphs to a Different Form or make them more Superior in some way...

"The question remains: Did something come up, or did something go down?"

Certainly is a Mystery one that changes a little with Alien Covenant... however as my previous Post indicated we are NOT at the Conclusion yet.  So we can Speculate WHEN this happened.

It seems almost 100% Certain the Space Jokey was infected with his Cargo.  The Answer to this had been implied/changed a little with the Prequels as far as Drafts and Ridley Scotts comments.  With Alien Covenant we have to Consider that is offers us TWO outcomes that this Event Happened After 2105 or that it was Ancient.

But this should NOT affect Speculation about the HOLE.

So lets look at Possible Ways that it could have happened.. if we IGNORE every Answer we had been given as we have NOT been shown what happened on Screen so we are left with some of these.

1) Face Hugger gets loose Crawls up the Cargo Hold and Burns through the Floor to get to the Space Jockey (UNLIKELY*).

*Hole looks Burnt downwards!

2) Face Hugger had infected the Space Jockey some other way, the Space Jockey throws the Face Hugger to the Ground and it Dies and Dissolves causing the Hole. (UNLIKELY*).

*Unlikely the Space Jockey encountered the Face Hugger in that Room.

3) The Space Jockey is Chest Busted and the Organism Grows and somehow it is able to Burn through the Floor by Producing Acid.  (MAYBE*).

*seen similar in other Movies (inc AVPS).

4) The Xenomorph cant Escape the Room it Dies and then Dissolves and creates the Hole (FLAWED*)

*The Nostromo Crew managed to Enter the Room, surely a Chest Buster could escape it.

5) The Space Jockey managed to Grab and Kill the Chest Buster and throw it to the Floor, it then Dissolves into the Hole. (MAYBE*).

*while Chest Busting kills, we saw Ripley was able to Hold on to hers while she was falling into the Furnace Engineers are STRONG and maybe could Grab and Kill the Chest Buster with its Last Breath!

6) The Hole appears after the Space Jockey Event, someone else arrives at the Derelict before the Nostromo and encounter a Xenmorph Life Cycle that is KILLED and thats how the Hole occurs. (MAYBE*)

*Certainly No Reason why someone else could NOT have been on the Derelict after the Crash but prior to the Nostromo.

I would add that its UNLIKELY the Hole had Formed before the Derelict had Crash Landed or Moments prior.

EDIT:

“Somebody must’ve knocked the door off”

Taking the NOVEL as Canon and a Clue...

Then this could lead us to OPTION 6

I will however say that the Layout of the Derelict and Juggernaught are DIFFERENT.   While the Bonus Mission for Alien Isolation attempts to Explore the Room/Ship its layout is a bit different to what we saw in ALIEN... with ALIEN the scene is Dark so we DONT get to see the FULL SET so we cant assume the Room is exactly as the SET, if we do then this Conflicts the Design shown in Alien Isolation.

Another point... the Door they Enter in Alien Isolation and the Door to the Beacon are TOO SMALL for the Space Jockey, it would be a Tight Fit for a Engineer too.

The Space Jockey would have to CRAWL through these and then it would be Tight like a AIR VENTILATION SYSTEM.... maybe thats what these Entrances are?

I think maybe we could look at the Differences in Climate as Regards to the Effect on the Space Suit... we know that on LV-223 the Atmosphere inside (Outpost and Ships) was Breathable for Humans, we have to assume that in ALIEN that LV-426 is Hostile Environment and that inside the Derelict it likely has LOST its Environment that is Sustainable for us without a Space Suit.

So YES maybe that could account for the Colorization, but also maybe such Factors could Speed Up the Rate of which the Suit Decays/Withers away?

Regarding Alien Covenant it is a Prequel, one that was to go on a Direct Route to LEAD to ALIEN... but indeed as the Movie Ends we are 17.5 Years away the Nostromo turning up at LV-426 and that does-not leave much time Considering that Ridley Scott claims we are at least TWO more Movies away before we Discover WHO is in that Chair and HOW/WHY those Eggs get on the Derelict.

IF we assume the route being taken and Events Chronologically lead to the Derelict then as of 2105 we have to assume there is NOTHING related to the Derelict and Space Jockey on LV-426.

A Bitter Pill to swallow for a lot of Fans...

But ALAS... and the point i think you raise LETO is that as of NOW those Prequels have-not Concluded at Present with ALIEN we know the Derelict is there and its a Mystery of Sorts... at Present in Context to LV-426 it is Unexplored and so we have NOT been shown what is on that Moon so we could NOT rule out there is NO Ship or that the Derelict is THERE already!

And so while there is NO Conclusion, we can Clutch at Straws in the Hope that we get a Different Reveal or that it gets left a MYSTERY!

Something to Consider......

As of Prometheus they felt you did-not have to Show the Xenomorph Origin,  you did not have to have Xenomorphs running around Killing people because we have seen that OVER and OVER so they thought you could do away with that and Concentrate on the Space Jockey Race while giving us Clues to a Connection between Horseshoe Ships, Bio-logical Warfare Horrors, and the Space Jockey, leaving the Derelict a Mystery but inferring that its Connected to what the Engineers were up to Thousands of Years ago!

Then they can go off and make a different Franchise that is NOT about the Xenomorph!

However at this TIME while they kept it a Mystery the Truth at that Time was that YES the Derelict is related to LV-223 and it has been on LV-426 for between 1800-2200 Years (Give or Take).

But some Backlash to Prometheus, how it never gave the Answers a lot of Fans Expected (at least more indication) and the lack of Xenomorphs (well at least similar Monsters in Action).   Had made FOX decide that Actually its maybe better to Provide a Route to the Origins of the Xenomorph, and Eventually lead to the Space Jockey and also introduce Xenomorphs again!

Unfortunately the Plot they gave us and that Curve-ball was something that has Disappointment Fans and IF this is the True Avenue to the Xenomorph then its going to leave a lot of things that have to be Covered, as there are a LOT of Conflicts/Contradictions at the Moment.

But the Purpose of that Last Part of my Post is to show that Alien Covenant came about from Fan Reaction to Prometheus.  (yes it had other Flaws, but FOX felt that going away from Xenomorphs and NOT giving the Origins or Derelict Event any answers was a MISTAKE and is what Fans would prefer).

Certainly the Path they took i feel has disappointed more Fans than Prometheus NOT having Xenos and Answers. (be Careful what you wish for).

But the Knee-jerk Reaction that created Alien Covenant shows that Fan Reaction can SHAPE the Future.

Disney would want to MAKE sure that any Future Movies will MAKE $$$$ which means giving Most Fans what they want or at least AVOID anything that would have Fans Protesting and being Disappointed..

so INDEED until we have a Conclusion to the Prequels or UNTIL a Alien Movie provides Concrete Proof that would show the Derelict as Ancient then at the MOMENT...

LV-426 and the Derelict remain a MYSTERY.

Leto

Well, Dallas says: "Looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized"

I agree, how about a twist in AC2?

During the Space Jockey scene, Dallas was the narrator. If he said: "Looks fossilized". It's true.

Another point - Alien Covenant it's not a prequel to Alien. it's a prequel to AC2. The story is not finished. Trying to explain the Alien in terms of AC it is very far-fetched. Without AC2 - AC is just stand alone story, a sequel of Prometheus, without any connections with Alien.

dk

No, no answer to that riddle.

The question remains: Did something come up, or did something go down?

To the OT- I completed the game but did not read the novel. Question- was there any mention of how that hole was made in the floor? It was implied that a face hugger or chest burster created it.

As for "fossilized", they say it looks that way. The correct term might be mummified or that it's desiccated. The mummies we usually think of are about 4000 years old or so . . .

Much material is organic (leather, wool) so what happens, in time, is that body and clothes mould together as they decay.

The Space Jockey is in a climate where he is exposed to the condition of LV-426, which is harsh. The "doors" of the juggernaut are open. But he is not directly exposed to it. The hole down to the egg-chamber (where there is a different climate) can perhaps also affect the climate in the pilot room?

I’m wondering why the Derelict Space Jockey looks like he’s grown out of the seat, and the Engineer in Prometheus most definitely does not. Perhaps the seat stays ‘alive’ for a long period of time and sends out creeping tendrils that eventually engulf the pilot, wrapping him in a deadly embrace like ivy smothering a tree. Ultimately they might become one and the same ‘organism’...

 BigDave there may be a difference between the Engineers' suits, although they look similar, they may have different fabric and purposes. I think there is the Pilot suit, that grows out of the chair and the other suit hanging on board the Juggernaut or worn by the LV223 Engineers. If the latter are kind of chemical / antiexposure suits they might be more resilient and not change aspect / colour with time.

Regarding the spoon feeding novel, I do not agree with such approach and I believe it will not end the debates regarding the origin of Space Jockey and the xenomorph. But alas, the most important thing is that the beacon was switched off and the mistery of setting the Hadley's Hope next to the deadly ship is solved.

@Tiwaz

A lot has changed regarding the Goo and LV-223, each Draft/Movie things get changed... Originally (Jon Spaights Prequels) it seemed the indication was the Engineers encountered a Organism they then used their Creation/Hybridization Tool (Nano-Scarabs) on to Experiment and Create Various Versions of this Organism, the Xenomorph being ONE Variety they Re-Engineered.  It appears Prometheus had same intention only making it Vague....  but then we had EDITS and stuff...

There Definitely was a Connection between Black Goo and Xenomorph...   The Black Goo either came from a Xenomorph, or it leads to the Xenomorph as a result of Experiments or a Accidental Outbreak. Or they both came from another Source.   I am more drawn to that the Black Goo comes from Various Experiments they had conducted, but these all Started with some Organism they had NOT created... but they use the GOO to Experiment with this Organism.

But then we have that Curve-ball and i can Understand WHY... but then it would have made more Sense for David to Re-Engineer something Similar and Improved.. but ALAS!

At the Moment.... its a bit of a Mess... but there are ways around it... unless Disney Stick to Ridley Scotts Guns!

I think Regarding RS...

We have to Remember as of the Prequel Concept the Derelict had been on LV-426 for a Long Time.. Alien Engineers is a bit Flawed... its ENDING cant lead to ALIEN for a number of Reasons...  thus its intention was likely to show that a Similar Fate had happened to the Space Jockey Thousands of Years Prior.

Prometheus was more ambiguous but it was to indicate a Connection between LV-223 and Black Goo and Xenomorph but it was left with NO spoon Fed Explanation.

However RS had confirmed what happened and indeed as of 2012 the Space Jockey/Derelict was a Event that was Connected to LV-223 and happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak on LV-223 some TWO Thousand Years (give or take).  Thus its likely the Derelict had been Sitting on LV-426 for about 1800-1900 Years (give or take).

But ALAS... we got the Alien Covenant U-Turn which you have to wonder if they Considered the contradictions and things that need Clearing up by going the Route they had.. if we assume its that as of 2105 there is NOTHING on LV-426.

The Regenerate Comment was a bit ODD... we dont see Camerons Xenos Regenerate... or those Xenomorphs in Alien Resurrection...  maybe it takes Time?

The most Logical and Best way to Incorporate any kind of Regeneration would be that ONCE the Organism Dies... from its Body it will Decompose into a Mass that a Egg or Eggs will Grow from..

Making it ACT like a Cabbage ;)

Ridley Scott had said that the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant has got some way to EVOLVE before we get to the Bio-Mechanical Beast from ALIEN (read into that how you will)  Ultimately.... we have NOT concluded the Prequels and so things can Change... i would say more likely than NOT as Disney would want to Please Fanboys... and i would say even MOST of the Fanbase would think the idea of the Xenomorph/Derelict as NOT being Ancient is well DAFT!

I have not read the Novel (i tend to not read any, i have to maybe make time and buy some) so i cant speak to much about it. As in i can only take what is put down by those who have Read It.

so i think sometimes its a case of WHAT is Canon, i think certainly ALIEN exists within the Alien Isolation Time/Event Line (Reality) but as far as IF the Alien Isolation is Canon to ALIEN is up for debate, Alien Isolation kind of Gives us a Alternative Story but i do think its Considered Canon to a degree.

Maybe FOX use expanded Material to tease/explore a different outcome than the Prequels had teased and indeed what RS had indicated?

I think Firstly YES the Derelict/Space Jockey does-not look like its been there up to 17 Years, as far as when the Nostromo Crew Arrive...  we really dont know what route RS was going but if its that in the Year 2105 there is NO Derelict then its a case of would they just have us to have to Accept the AGE of the Ship as far as HOW-LONG is something that would be a Oversight?

The Prequels have NOT concluded and so that route can be contested and changed..  they have to find some reasonable explanations WHY the Derelict is Ancient though.. but again even if we get a U-Turn we could get a Lazy Oversight again.

But to cover the Isolation Novel from what you have mentioned.. There are some Flaws... the Space Jockey Prop is 16ft Long the Space Jockey does-not account for the hole of it...  Its is likely the Space Jockey was about 13ft but as we dont see the Legs.. it would be between 12-15ft. (which was what they was going for in the First Prequel Drafts). 

But thats just Nit Picking... so yeah the Space Jockey Certainly could have been 12-16ft.

The Fossil Comment could be because again Marlow had interpreted the Rib-cage as being part of a Skeleton... but we need to look at what is a Fossil, but more so maybe Scrub that... but consider what could the SUIT BE..

“it’s hard to tell where the suit ends and the wearer begins, but it’s not a synthetic. It’s definitely a life form”

As this is the Biggest Clue, it indicates its a Suit, one where its hard to make out what is the Suit and Wearer...

So it implies the Suit is Organic and Attached to the Wearer.  So this comment kind of Rules Out a Few Things but leaves others Open...

This is indicated by RS and attempted to be shown in Prometheus, but the Engineers Suits are somewhat more Mechanical than the Space Jockey Appeared.  (Maybe Technology Age Difference?).

I think its best i USE the Old Analogy i used on here in 2012 which is the Cactus...  The Suits could be somewhat Organic, like a Plant (HR Giger said the Derelict was likely Grown like a Plant).

If we look at a Cactus the Flesh (Green) is Leathery to a Degree, Smooth almost Synthetic Feel to it, yet also Organic.   When a Cactus Dies then its Color Changes and it withers away a bit.

Regarding HOW-LONG the Derelict had been there... well its a case of if Marlow thinks 30+ Years is a Long Time?

Surely he felt it looked like it had been there Longer than that!

I think the BIGGEST Flaw with the Space Jockey/Engineers as far as DATE! is the Suits.. we have to ASK this Simple Question.... WHY did the Long Dead Engineer Suits in Prometheus simply NOT look as Withered/Aged as the Space Jockey?  Yet they had been on LV-223 for 2000 years?

You could Conclude the Space Jockey must have been on LV-426 for Much Much Longer than 2000 years.... unless the Suits/Being are NOT the same or some other Explanation to HOW the Space Jockey withered away Quicker?

Would such a Conflict be Addressed? or a Oversight like the Size Difference?

@chli

The opening scene seems to show a Primordial World, a World that is in Change, it has Waters, Evidence of Shaping from Volcanic Activity and other Geology...   The World has Greenery though.. this indicates the WORLD is NOT Lifeless...

And so indeed the Scene would be a VERY long time ago

There is NO given Date... but it appears to indicate this Certainly is before the END of the Precambrian Era and so its likely the World had Basic Life, and Basic Plant Matter but that most Life occurred in the Waters at this Time..  The Engineers Sacrifice was likely what provided the Catalyst that Evolved Life so that it would become Complex and Evolve to then Live on Land.

So its likely IF this was Earth that the Seeding Pebble Ship had arrived between 0.5 and 2.5 Billion Years ago.  However its does-not mean this is Earth but its likely Similar had happened on Earth and so its also likely Earth may-not have been the First Place this had happened..  and so we can Speculate the Pebble Ship Certainly is a Technology that is more than Many Millions of Years Old, and indeed likely Billions.

Also a Good Point about the Juggernaught, they could have Multiple Uses... that makes Sense..

The Crossing Draft had indicated (which i felt was odd) that the Juggernauts had Rooms that Grew Fruit, and had Rooms with Running Water so that Dr Shaw could Eat, Drink and Shower etc...  This shows that John Logan had Thought/Discussed the idea the Ships have these.

My Prometheus 2 i worked on in 2013 (mainly odd Flash Back) had a opening scene like Prometheus only we go across a Land that is more Evolved (Trees, Wildlife) and we see a Shadow of a Ship.... Horseshoe.... we then see its a Juggernaught and we then go inside we see some Engineers walk over to a Cryo-Pod and inside is a Primate they are Transporting... we zoom onto the Primates Eye... then we Zoom Out and its Dr Shaw's Eye, the Engineers replaced by David... so begins the Prologue of David wondering what is she Dreaming!

The purpose of this was to Indicate the Engineers would come and take Life from Worlds (Earth) and take them to LV-223 where they Experiment/Evolve them and then Return them to Earth when pleased with the Result...

So yes i think the Ships can have more than a Single Use!

so the Planet 4 Engineers would maybe have NOT expected this Ship would be Carrying a Bio-Weapon let alone that it would be Dropped on them.

@daliens and ignorant guy.

Great Points and this is kind of what i was getting at, you TWO summed up it very well.

So Indeed daliens i remember those comments by RS and i had used them before when pointing out about Planet 4 and Paradise and how it seemed those beings are Chosen to be used as Sacrifices, and so they become Immortalized in that NEW Life is Created from their Body/Soul and maybe those Statues are Erected in Honor and Memory of those Sacrifices so they LIVE on and are Remembered in that way too.

Certainly ignorantguy i made this Topic more so to not suggest they are War-ships but to Question that maybe that is not what they were Intended for.. quite how you had mentioned a few things ;)

I think if we look at the Sacrificial Scene... imagine if the Substance in the Bowl was contained in Hundreds of Urns/Canisters instead?

Drop that on a World and we can assume the Life on that Planet would BREAK DOWN and from this would SPAWN new Life and so would be a kind of RESET switch.

So using the Sacrificial Goo on Earth would make more Sense as far as to DESTROY Life but then from this it would RESET back to the Sacrificial Scene Time... to a degree (would not be as Big a Set Back) and also dropping such a Reset Switch from the Juggernauts would be Efficient.

So i still suspect the Engineers or a Group of them had discovered something THEY had no part in Creating, and Encountering this Organism they saw some Potential with it and they began to Experiment with this Organism using their Genetic Engineering Tools.

Because to me looking at the Engineers and the Goo it makes more sense to Sacrifice more than ONE Engineer in some kind of Room/Container where you can Collect the Result and then place this into URNS and Drop them down onto Worlds to EVOLVE them and pass on Engineer DNA and also offer more Genetic Diversity.

Have a Problem with a Creation/World then it makes more Sense to FILL the Urns with Sacrificial Goo and Bombard them, thus RESET the World..

The using of Black Goo that can Mutate into Parasitic, Invasive and Aggressive Organisms just makes LITTLE sense.

UNLESS those Engineers wishing to use this have deemed that Evolving Life to take on those Traits is Ideal and seen as the Next Best Course of Evolution.

So they saw the Deacon, Neomorph, Xenomorph like DNA/Traits as being Superior and more Ideal to Evolve Worlds than Engineer/Humanoid DNA/Traits.

I think Certainly that could apply a little...  I think it depends on what we look at, if we look at the Sacrificial Scene then the Style on the Sacrificial Bowl could be a Much More Ancient System the Engineers used a VERY VERY Long Time ago.... before the Dawn of LV-223 and the Juggernaught Technology.

The Prometheus Head Statue looked like a Transition from that System to the More Common Engineer, so maybe the Sacrificial Bowl System Evolved to what was on the Head Statue that then Evolved to the Engineers Cuneiform they commonly use?

The Peculiar One is the URNS/CANISTERS its a little odd that the Urns seem to be suited to the Juggernaut as far as Storage and Deployment, yet the Cuneiform on those Canisters is VERY unlike that which the Juggernaught uses and Engineers Bases/Buildings.

Was there a Intention here?  was it just Cool to have different types of Writing from the Production Standpoint...  we have to ask WHY did the Urns not have the more Common Engineer or Sacrificial Scene Cuneiform?

Did One part of that Puzzle Out-date the rest? so for example when the Urns were Conceived the Engineers used that System and then a LONG time after they created the Juggernaughts and a NEW writing system and they simple decided it was too much HASSLE to Re-Label the URNS...

Or Vice Versa?

It would be like say RUSSIA designs a Large Craft with their Writing System throughout, but then then use for the Weapons say Bombs that have say Chinese all over them!

But this may make sense in that the Chinese could supply the Ammunition i guess...

Could the same be said with the Engineers, are the URNS supplied by another Race/Species or different Culture/Civilization of Engineers?

Are we looking at a Collaboration? or a Theft, or just a CANT be bothered to update with Newest Writing System on older stuff they had?

Nice Collection HOX

I think looking at both Replies so FAR then indeed the Main Point was WHAT kinds of Work by Giger would you like to had seen used or something based off in the Franchise...  and so we INDEED could look beyond just Xenomorphs, Neomorphs, Deacons and Hammerpedes and Various Morphs as such.

so what i mean is that HR Giger has a Armory of Art that Depicts a Lot of Surreal Crazy £%"£$"

You have the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic Applied in a number of ways, you have Organic Beings and Material Connected to Mechanical Stuff were you can make out whats Organic and Mechanical but its still Disturbing and Surreal how they are being Merged..

And you have pieces with Various Organic Matter/Organisms being Deformed, Morphed, Warped and Merged and sometimes with Horrific looking Consequences... that would NOT look out of place in The THING!

The same could be said with some of Davids Artwork, which some are Experiments others likely his Wild Disturbed Imagination.

So there is scope to explore some F$£"% UP $"&%

Its a case of HOW do we apply any, for what Reason.

We see that Li Khang had done some Gruesome Concept Work, never-mind what Hallet and Hatton had came up with.  Thats without looking at HR Gigers Warchest of ART.

So indeed we could look at the Effects of the Black Goo and Mutations, and when looking at many works of HR Giger i am sure some of them could be Disturbing to be brought to Life....

The Egg Morph was kind of Disturbing, imagine something similar Explored now with the Technology and Effects we have nowadays.

Imagine if the Engineers that were Bombarded had NOT turned to like Stone, but there Bodies began to Deform, Merge with each other, leaving a Mass of Twisted/Merged Body's with aspects of the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic or Certainly other Worldly Organic look (like a lot of Davids Drawings)..

Imagine a Group of Humans coming across such, and we see Protruding from this Mass of Merged Bodies/Matter some Eggs Sacks or Growths and Wonder what Horrors they Conceal ;)

You could Ponder what Failed Experiments, Mutations could look like some of HR Gigers works.

What other Species could be Explored that are very ALIEN...

So Certainly there is a LOT to draw inspiration from ;)

HR Giger has been used as inspiration for other Movies which include the Species Series, i think these would not look out of Place with the Franchise.. especially with the Engineers and Genetic Engineering and what Horrors could result from Experiments on LV-223.

I think its nice to discus what would really have been cool to see in the Franchise.... a PROBLEM of some becoming a Reality is the HR Giger Estate.. which is why some of Hatton and Hallets work got Canned.

I really would LOVE to have seen the Unused Ultramorph's that never made it into a Prequel that were based off Necronom IV

Hm, it's been a while since my last post here.

Anyway, I don't think the jockey is fossilized. The requirements for that aren't met. Like Gavin in another post, I think our big friend is mummified or sthing alnong those lines. But does that make it less old? No. Especially since there are hints all over for the xenos to be around for a long time (books etc).

IMO David recreated the Alien. I believe the goo always produces a Xeno, no matter who's fooling around with it. Thats what it is meant to do, so to speak.

Kinda like this:

1.)

Black goo is used in a rather uncontrolled fashion (Bombs, drinks, other ways of exposure) which leads to mutations and/or the breakdown of organic matter.

2.)

The mutated organisms develop more and more towards the final form, the xenomorph.

3.)

Once the final stage is reached it produces and uses the black goo in a "proper" fashion to create offspring.

That's at least what I get after reading Alien: The Cold Forge. There the facehuger doesn't use an embyo but goo to impregnate it's victims.

Well, the problem is that the scene at the beginning of Prometheus depicts what happened perhaps 3 billion years ago. I would also like to believe that it was on Earth and it's about the creation of life. In that way there is a circularity, the beginning and ending of Prometheus show that the Engineers created us (life) but that they can also end it: "Sometimes to create, one must first destroy".

The pebble spacecraft was 3 billion years ago. Something must have happened with their technology since then . . .

Why not see the juggernaut as just a means of transportation through space. The cargo hold could as well contain seed, plants, animals as well as the deadly pathogen . . .

Ridley has contradicted himself over the years, so I'd take his statement with a pinch of salt. For sure, David tampered with some genetics to make the particular Xenomorph we saw in Covenant. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the same beast we saw in Alien and Aliens.

Come to think of it, Ridley has said some pretty daft things. On the Covenant commentary, after the Xenomorph gets minced, he says that it could regenerate itself from one of its detached limbs! Ho ho, he's probably been watching too much Carry On Screaming, where Oddbod regenerates from a finger!

IgnorantGuy

At least two people have now "misread" the age of the Space Jockey. Both of them were accompanied by two other people (who didn't contradict them) which makes 6 people.

I might add that Russ and Anne Jordan also saw "the mummified bones jutting out of its exosuit, and the hole behind its ribs". So there must be some kind of mass hallucination . . . :)

I care if the xenomorph is a) an old species (discovered by the Engineers) b) created by the Engineers or c) created by David.

The problem is that 20th Century Fox doesn't seem to care . . .

There is, of course, a point in making things ambiguous. It keeps an interest going. But, the problem is that Ridley Scott doesn't seem to want ambiguity, because he's said that David is the creator of the xenomorph. 

I have a lovely biomechanoid print in my garden room, hot from the Swiss Giger Musem. The underwater girl is so hot, I'd love to see her in a sequel.

(In case you're wondering, the other pieces are a part of the Prometheus set and a production storyboard from AVP).

chli You have missed my point. I was only trying to find ways how David could fit into the picture. As many people said before, it could have been Dallas mis-reading the age of the fossil. But the author of the novelization seems to go by this interpretation, and it makes sense in the Lovecraftian setup (trope). But David being the one creating the xenomorph makes sense in the limited context of Covenant. And RS is not particularly interested in continuity, so why should we try to solve unsolvable riddles?

To clarify, I don't care who created the Xenomorph because it is a stupid monster at the end of the day, who is killed in almost every movie (perfect organism my @$$). I don't care who ends out to be the Space Jockey as it also does not matter. And I don't find Covenant David compelling at all.

PS. Let's not forget about the dreaded time travel!

IgnorantGuy

I'm afraid I don't agree with your interpretation. Marlow says that their's a hole in the ribcage and that's it's organic. "It's definitely a life form" and "it's not a synthetic".

But the biggest problem is the age of the Space Jockey. Both Marlow and Dallas says that the creature has been dead for a very long time and that it looks fossilized. We're talking millennia - not just a couple of years. This rules out David! If we go by this, David is neither the SpaceJockey nor the creator of the xenomorph.

BigDave Why do you even think that they waged wars like us? Firstly against whom? Other species, against themselves? Maybe they wanted to finish humanity because of it's warring habits?

As it was show the Juggernaut would have been a terrible vessel against other vessels. It is full of empty space and does not seem to have weapons to shutdown the Prometheus. A clue might have been how the Scorpion thing and David's ship crash in Covenant but that was not shown.

I cannot not recall exactly who said it, but the Juggernaut is the evolution of the Pebble ship, so the latter was probably out of use.