Comments (Page 213)

"I wonder how you deduce the Engineers being sterile? "

I must Apologize for some Confusion, i am assuming this is in reply to my TOPIC?  If so i understand that sometimes wires can get crossed, well that its sometimes a Tedious Task to Read my Long Replies/Topics so something can be missed ;) (by the reader).

I do-not speculate our Engineers in Total are Sterile, Alien Covenant proves this to NOT be the case.  But prior to Alien Covenant this was a subject to debate regarding our Marble White Engineers. which the original idea was that they WAS (Sterile) a potential consequence of Genetic Manipulation gone too far. But off course this does-not mean thats the case as far as the Theatrical Release of Prometheus.. it was something that was NEVER answered either way, despite the Sacrificial Engineer having NO Nipples.

With RS coming out to say the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals i think leaves it open for the Prometheus Engineers to be a Engineered Sub-Creation or a group that had Genetically Enhanced themselves and this opens up the debate about IF those Engineers (Prometheus Marble White Dudes) are Sterile?

But thats probably better off discussed on the Topic The Engineers (Sub Creation)

The relation to this Topic as a Invitation is only relevant in maybe WHICH of those Engineer Groups had left those Star Maps.  Which really could be a open ended debate with a number of more Possibilities if we are Wondering WHICH kind of Engineers had interacted with Mankind.  But then who is to say that there is NO real difference between those Engineers and the comment by RS about the Planet 4 ones being Originals does not imply any Genetic Differences. Or Certainly not from a Engineered POV.

PS i Apologize again...

Realized that i had mentioned it on this Topic here

"The Earlier Drafts do give some possible hints, as far as Prometheus goes, which maybe sets us on a path to Ponder that these are a Species who LOST the ability to Procreate"

So this was as i was saying, in context that the Original Idea was a Species that LOST the ability to Procreate (Alien Engineers) which Prometheus was a little more ambiguous about.  So the point i was making was as far as when RS called the Planet 4 (not so Engineer looking) guys the Originals.... and how RS then also called the Replicants a A.I... so i was WONDERING if this means those Prometheus Engineers are like the Engineers versions of Replicants and thus wondering if they are Sterile ;)

There is very LITTLE doubt that the Planet 4 Engineers cant Procreate, it seems Certain they can.  We dont 100% know if the Prometheus ones can either thats a bit more OPEN for Debate... unless we assume they and the Planet 4 Engineers are the Same.  Which they could be as its only a comment by Ridley Scott and comments about not wanting to meet Gods in the First Movie that can leave us to Speculate the Prometheus Engineers are different.

BigDave

I would say that there is a difference between biological (organic life) and synthetic. AI is, therefore, simply artificial. The neomorph and the xenomorph are artificial if, from the beginning, they are made in a lab from non-living substances. If, however, they originate from a living creature (DNA) then life itself is not artificial. Ju might, of course, blend these things (organic and non-organic) but then you have "life" as a starting point. Is David really living?

As for a connecting movie to Alien, it seems a bit weird if the Engineers start developing the pathogen and the xeno-traits, David continues it, and then the Engineers picks up the baton again.

How about some people from W-Y and some marines come to a destroyed and desolate planet. In a ruin, they find a recording from David. In it, he explains what has happened after they left Planet 4. He explains how everything he's dreamed of has gone up in smoke (literally). Engineers have blown up everything (nothing is left) and left that part of the galaxy. Before the end, David realizes his folly.

But, in a flashback scene (2000 years back in time on LV-223) we see an Engineer running towards a juggernaut, sets off, but eventually crash lands on LV-426 . . .

BigDave

I wonder how you deduce the Engineers being sterile? In that case, wouldn't Planet 4 be empty of Engineers (2000 years after the outbreak on LV-223)? Just a huge graveyard?

Yes, there are themes of not being able to procreate: Sir Peter Weyland has only a daughter. David is the nearest he gets to a son. I wonder why he didn't get more children (he's got everything)? Shaw is unable to get children (although she births a trilobite) and David obviously can't create children (not human anyway).

But the Engineers? Why shouldn't they be able to procreate? They lived a happy life on Planet 4 with Engineers in abundance (until David arrived).

BigDave Yes there could be the reveal that David goes back in time and creates the Bible stories and every myth based on his exploits, while also creating the human race, his sheep.

Don't fall however to the Hollywood cliches, the notion of Over-man has nothing to do with the body, it is related to overcoming nihilism, which is another term requiring an explanation.

"I'd be careful in what Ridley says about AI. There's AI and there's AI."

Certainly i think we also have to remember that A.I is Very Ambiguous, most seem to think it has to do with Robotics and Software.

If we was to Advanced Genetics to the Point we could create a Hybrid Human/Ape that would then gain more Intelligence lets say we have Created this!

You could say this would be a Artificially Created Intelligent Life Form... thus a A.I.

We could Ponder if David takes those Embryos and he Enhances them, maybe even giving them None-Human Traits then they would be a A.I too.

Yes we could also consider that if the GOO from the Prequels is NOT a Natural Substance then it could also be classed as a A.I

I do suspect that the Prometheus Engineers are Genetically Enhanced Sub-Creation by the Planet 4 Engineers (which could class them as a A.I), or if not they are a Group who had Genetically Altered themselves in which case we maybe cant class them too much as a A.I.  I have made this TOPIC to cover that and what such a Revelation would have on the Plot.

@BigDave, I agree, it's very likely that the Engineers have overseen the development of countless humanoid races on numerous worlds. It would be interesting to know if their efforts are highly directed to construction of the humanoid form. That would be consistent with the story of God creating Man in his own image.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that the Engineers would find ways of 'improving' their own form to produce a higher form of perfection, or indeed practise eugenics to create individual castes. Who knows, the Engineers on LV-223 might have been specifically created to  make a caste best-suited for space travel. I suppose you could call such beings Replicants. More Engineer than Engineer.

I'd be careful in what Ridley says about AI. There's AI and there's AI. A swarm of infectious particles (in Covenant) could be operating in unison by completely artificial and computational means, but that's a long way from how we ordinarily think of AI as being a completely artificial thinking entity. We could bio-engineer humanity ourselves, if ethics permitted, but we wouldn't have created an AI.

I think when the Engineer was looking at David it was certainly with pity. He would have appreciated that a highly intelligent thinking machine was in front of him. But he wasted no time at all in destroying what - for him - amounted to an abomination. Symbolically bashing in Weyland's skull with the product of his creation was a nice touch!

The Engineer certainly knows the potential of the upstart creatures that broke his millennial slumber. Indeed, he would see their presence as an immediate affirmation of the Engineer code of ethics, which I believe are: Thou shalt not create thinking machines. Thou shalt not permit thinking machines to be created. Thy children will permit enslavement on pain of extermination.

Three amazing pictures:

In continuation...

Ridley Scott has made some interesting comments about the Xenomorph in regards to the Future, he had claimed the Xenomorph has YET to Evolve a bit more before we get to ALIEN.

He had said that the NEXT Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph but what KIND of a World that David would Create.

Now it depends on HOW you read into that, because maybe if a Movie just had NEOMORPHS would it Technically NOT be about the Xenomorph?

He said it would be about AI, and now we cant conclude this means ROBOTS... a AI simply means a Artificial Creation that has some Intelligence, and so a Xenomorph and Neomorph could be Considered as such.

He also said that there was ONLY so much you can do with HIM (assume Xenomorph) but you can EVOLVE him.

Most Recently he talked about the Xenomorph by saying that you could explore different ways to Evolve it, and explore different ways of Procreation.

So maybe on our ROUTE to ALIEN... we can hold some hope for seeing Various Hybrids and Forms of Procreation.

If the ENGINEERS return, and we know they are a Species who take a Great Interest in Genetic Engineering and Evolving Species, and at some point some of them had taken a Great Interest in Organisms that Predate the Deacon and lead to the Deacon.

Then there is the Potential that IF we see David go on to Create Various Hybrids... that maybe the Engineers could take a INTEREST in these and decide to TAKE some of Davids work and EVOLVE it themselves..

Off to LV-223 maybe they go to Experiment with David's Creations.... to the SPACE JOCKEYS...... HUBRIS!

We have to REMEMBER that we are 2-3 Movies away from ALIEN as far as RS has his plans... i see NO RUSH to please Fans to go about with Xenomorphs and Cameron's Queens.

As long as Fans see something ALIENY and know we are on the ROUTE to seeing Xenomorphs down the Line i think that should please most Fans.

A Plot that ENDS with maybe the Engineers or their Creators FOLLY at trying to Obtain and Evolve David's Experiments could be the IDEAL way to Rescue the Origins of the Xenomorph.

so someone ELSE plays the Final Roles in the Evolution to what we had in ALIEN.  (thus David is the Middle Man).

Certainty and thats WHY i mentioned the Deacon being a Good Starting point, while David did-not see the End Result.

If we take this Scenario of David being interested in WHY and WHAT was happening to Dr Shaw, then if the GOO was needed to Infect Sperm Cells or even if the GOO just needed to be applied to Egg Cells, you could certainly consider David would like to try such Experiments.

The Neomorph was a Very Rapid Gestation, something to have little Control Over.

The Deacon Infection is different, in that it appears to be LIKELY a infection/evolution of a Human Egg Cell.  What we also saw is that even though Dr Shaw had Terminated the Birth via C-Section the Trilobite had continued to Grow/Survive.

So if we Speculate here, and imagine that David found out HOW/WHY our Dr Shaw had been Impregnated with the Trilobite Fetus (David would have known it was NOT Human).  Then in Theory he could infect her or a Female and then Surgically Remove the Fetus at a Earlier Stage.  If he found a way to Store/Contain them then he could OBTAIN a Trilobite or Similar a Number of Times.

Back to the Topic of the Eggs, it is likely that David had used Dr Shaws Egg Cells to Produce the Xenomorph Eggs... which would mean that there is a LIMIT to how often and how many he could obtain.

And so like the Creation of the Trilobite there are Limits as far as how often you could produce such things... Using ONE Host/Egg Donor.

"“She” would then produce the xeno-eggs directly (cesarean because of the size?) but still only 12 per year?"

I think when we consider a Hybrid we cant rule out how many Traits the Black Goo would Evolve... or Xenomorph DNA would Evolve... if the objective of the Species Created would be Procreate then its likely that Dr Shaw's method of Procreation could be Evolved.

So who knows HOW often and HOW many Eggs a Hybrid could Produce....

There was some SMALL Eggs in Davids Workshop, he also had obtained some SMALL Face Huggers.  So maybe the Eggs obtained are NOT so Large but GROW.

So we could Speculate maybe a Hybrid would Produce Smaller Eggs that can be extracted or maybe even LAID?

I have done a Edit of some of the Artwork.

If something like this is Possible, we can only imagine how many Eggs could be Laid, Certainly more Frequent than a Human Reproductive System  and so something like this Created by David would indeed be a way of Perfecting his Queen.

EDIT:

A Female Human has Thousands of Eggs, but only Ovulate about 12 a Year, so we could consider that a Hybrid with a Hybrid Reproductive Egg Laying Cycle could Ovulate MUCH more than that, and maybe even Utilize most of the Eggs the Female has (Many Thousands).

I would certainly be interested in seeing such a Hybrid in Future.

"Maybe billions of years ago they fought and won wars against machines, and it's now completely taboo for them. Instead they live like monks"

Certainly you seemed to see some Compassion in the Engineers eyes towards David we could ponder if they had seen similar in the past with Consequences. 

The Engineer also seemed interested in Dr Shaw, especially if we look at the Extended Scenes of the Engineers.  Ultimately he witnessed via Peter Weylands Actions and Demands that Mankind are a Race that are Selfish and Wicked and NOW have Finally Evolved Technologically to Reach the Stars and maybe be able to USE their Technology.

But back to DAVID....

The Revelation by Ridley Scott that those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and how he mentions about AI and the Replicants are AI.  Taking this on board then it could be a Indication that the Augmented/Enhanced Prometheus Engineers are more similar to the Replicants?

If so then the Engineer would have been looking at a Mirror of himself when he saw David, and this maybe explains his PITY.  But Ultimately he also realized the Hubris and Downfall a Sub-Creation could bring, maybe he knows the Potential because this is what they had attempted against their Creators?

@Hox

Firstly yes we have to look at things from the Engineers Perspective, so lets assume if we look at a Plot similar to Planet of the Apes and we play GOD and find a way to Imprint some of our Genomes into Apes so we Evolve the Apes a little.

If we see that our Creation has started to become Independent and a Threat then it would give GOOD REASON for us to UNDO what we had Created for the Greater Good of Mankind... because the Potential is there for our Creations to become Sentient, Unruly and a Threat.   We would maybe NOT view that those Apes should have the same Rights as us, if it was NOT for us they would not had been Created in the First Place.

So it would be our DOING that created a potential Calamity and we could feel its our right to UNDO it.

The Same applies for David... we see he has Feelings, and if Walter had gained similar Emotions and Freewill then Synthetics would certainly feel Compassion for their own kind, but in the EYES of their Creators.. Mankind they would NOT be seen as a Sentient Life Form like ourselves.

Another thing to Consider is that the Engineers could likely have many Worlds that have Very Human Life on them or they could have taken Humans in the Past or even just prior to the Intended Destruction to another Place.

So they would NOT be Destroying the Entire Race of Mankind, if we they had other Very Similar Creations or indeed 100% Humans elsewhere then for the Engineers the Destruction of Mankind would be something that WOULD-NOT weigh so much on their Mind.

It would have been Interesting to had seen what other Engineers would have Felt had Dr Shaw had got to MEET them.

Which will bring me to the Next Post.

@Chli

Certainly there are Many reasons for WHY would someone want to Create Life, i think in Context to the Engineers we have to maybe look at it from a different perspective than Natural Procreation.

But thats not to say that some of those Reasons cant apply, Certainly as far as a Intelligent Species who have the ability to make a Choice to Procreate or Not.

When it comes down to the Engineers i think the Question of WHY is something that was NOT clearly laid out, not as far as the Theatrical Movie.  And so we can only Speculate Widly if we only use that movie as a Source of Creation, there are Hints to possible Motives in Prometheus and Alien Covenant if we maybe look at David's Creation, or maybe Ponder WHY he also attempts to Create Life. But as far as the Engineers go there really is NO definite reason given.

The Earlier Drafts do give some possible hints, as far as Prometheus goes, which maybe sets us on a path to Ponder that these are a Species who LOST the ability to Procreate and so the Sacrificial Route was a way to Populate themselves to a degree.  However after Prometheus we had Ridley Scott suggest the Engineers could Create Life in other ways and the Sacrificial Ritual was just how they CHOOSE to do so.

The drafts for Alien Covenant we do have David drop a hint that we was created as Machines, which implies to Perform Certain Tasks so the Engineers would not have to.

If we take into account various Religion and Mythos then there are some things that Match as far as Creation but then there are some other things that Differ.

If we look at WHY would Weyland Create David then we could consider the following.

*Weyland is a Inventor a Innovator and Creating a Humanoid Synthetic who is Virtually Indistinguishable to ourselves but is also Superior, would be such a Accomplishment for Weyland to Serve his Ego.  As he would feel he has Surpassed what GOD had Created and so he would also leave a LEGACY.

*David was like the Son he never had and so its likely that in Part his creation was for Companionship too.

*David was also created to Serve Weyland, to Perform Tasks for his Master, and the Creation of more Synthetics would be used by Mankind to Serve and Perform Tasks so that we do-not have to anymore.

The thing that was Revealed with Alien Covenant is that David felt that he was NOT treated as Equal or how a Son should be treated by its Father.... and indeed most of Mankind.

But i do speculate if there was another Reason for his Creation, which is Longevity a Pseudo Immortality if you would.  If Peter Weyland could Create the Perfect Vessel for a Immortal Soul, and then he found a way to Transfer a Human Soul into  a AI then Peter Weyland would in Part have gained Immortality.   This is merely a Assumption/Idea by myself as Immortality was a Big Agenda for Peter Weyland.

So when looking at the Engineers there could be many reasons.... we cant rule out the because they COULD either, or indeed as David had said "devil makes work for idle hands" and so we have to consider as you mentioned with Building a Beautiful Garden that in part its a case of Creating Something to get around Boredom so you have something Nice to come out of the Work you put in.

@chli, good point about anarchy going unpunished in a disorderly universe.

Shaw asked the Engineer why he hated us so much. I don't think it's quite so simple as that. They likely do what they do out of a sense of duty and tradition rather than emotion. Maybe the writing was on the wall for humans when we started warring amongst ourselves and enslaving people. Would it really be a good idea to let aggressive monkeys loose in the cosmos, armed with high technology? The kind of creatures that would be likely to create aggressive thinking machines? Probably not. Maybe the Engineers had the right idea...

When the Engineer listened to David, there was a real look of pain on his face as he listened (shortly before David's rapid decapitation). What pitiful abomination have these humans created? It's not a new idea (see, for example, Dune, Neuromancer etc.), but it could be the case that the Engineer civilisation is totally and utterly averse to the creation of thinking machines. Maybe billions of years ago they fought and won wars against machines, and it's now completely taboo for them. Instead they live like monks.

I believe the Engineers lived in the same way for many millions of years, living a frugal, reflective, religious life. They see it as their duty to seed the universe with life, and to safeguard it against corrupted forms. If that means creating despicable agents of destruction to wipe out a planet or two, so be it!

I think we can rule out egg morphing since the route David has taken is the creation of his perfect queen (of Daniels). We saw in AC that David eventually managed to create xenomorph eggs by using Shaw’s body. It seems that he kept her alive but transformed. In “Advent” it seems that he plucks eggs from her body which is mixed with the pathogen (and perhaps neomorph DNA) eventually resulting in xeno-eggs (waiting for a host).

A female body can produce 12 eggs per year but perhaps David can speed up the process? Furthermore, half of the colonists are women (about 1000) . . . A human hybrid, as you propose BigDave is of course also possible. “She” would then produce the xeno-eggs directly (cesarean because of the size?) but still only 12 per year?

As for Holloway’s transmission of the “xeno-traits” to Shaw (her egg), I think it seems likely that Holloway’s body (his cells) is mutated, even his gametes.

Certainly, i would like to think the TRUE revelation would had been NOTHING like Dr Shaw's Faith. 

It seems reasonable that Shaw was right about the Engineers being creators and looked at them as god like, but her notion of faith and (what Weyland mentioned- the existence of a soul) were wrong. I agree the TRUTH was that she was pretty much off the mark, as she eventually said- "We were so wrong." Seems like a form of self importance although unintentional. That is a reason she could not be a sympathetic character. There could be a God, but don't expect it to be like what was taught over centuries.

Do you really have to have a purpose in order to create? Does there have to be another reason for creating other than enjoying it? Most people create babies because they enjoy doing it. They enjoy having sex and/or they enjoy having children. All (?) species reproduce only because it’s part of their nature, an instinct.

Humans can control their creation through birth control. In former times and in developing countries you might create children because you need more hands on the farm, or a king or nobleman needs an heir to take over land, properties and duties.

Sir Peter Weyland created synthetics in order to serve mankind just as Dr Elden Tyrell created replicants to do hard and dangerous jobs. Another purpose might have been to earn money . . .

But if we are to look upon the Engineers as gardeners of space, don’t they create just because they enjoy doing it? A real gardener might create beautiful parks because it’s his job (he gets paid) but if you cultivate your own garden (Il faut cultiver notre jardin :) ) you do it because you enjoy it. You enjoy the beauty of it. Your own Garden of Eden filled with trees, bushes, flowers, butterflies, birds and pets . . .

Concerning control, you cannot give children, pupils or pets full freedom to do whatever they like. That would result in anarchy and chaos. Concerning the tree of knowledge (or the Prometheus myth), to pass on knowledge isn’t dangerous in itself, it’s how it’s used . . .

The First Engineer

The Engineer first appeared in the 1997 final story arc of Stormwatch volume 1, ("Change or Die"—Stormwatch issues #48–50), by Warren Ellis and Tom Raney. He was part of a superpowered group called the Changers, led by The High, who wanted to change the world by removing the structure of society itself. There would be no more laws, no authoritarian structures, no crime, and no war. The Engineer's role in this plan was to seed nanotechnological oases across the planet. These oases would serve as "horns of plenty" providing every imaginable food, product, and tool anybody needed. This first Engineer died with the rest of the Changers in issue #50 when Stormwatch, under the command of an increasingly maverick Henry Bendix, destroyed their base with Hammerstrike Deep Sanction missiles consisting of biowar payload and tailored acid bombs.

A later Stormwatch arc, collected as the trade paperback A Finer World (Stormwatch vol. 2 issues #2–4) explored this Engineer's legacy: the Nevada Garden, his first and sole surviving nanotech oasis, was secretly commandeered by the United States military and used for weapon creation. Apollo and The Midnighter destroyed the site on behalf of Stormwatch, and brought most of its nanotech 'trees' into Stormwatch custody.

Sorry, @BigDave, my bad. I induced you in error.  WARREN Ellis and Tom Raney  are the creators of the wildstorm character known as The Engineer.

COMICS ARE THE MAIN SOURCE OF  INSPIRATION TO FILM MAKERS.

I dont own any at the Moment.

The Extra Detail of these ones is something that certainly Tempts me to get them ;)

"1997 Creator: Warren Ellis; The Engineer"

Interesting Share ;)

Certainly could apply to our Engineers from the ALIEN Franchise.

"The question “Why did they create us?” could get the same answer that David gets from Holloway:"

Certainly, i would like to think the TRUE revelation would had been NOTHING like Dr Shaw's Faith.  In that these beings had Created us to Look Over us, Cherish us and Love us.  When we are looking at the Scale of Creation in context to Prometheus i think we have to always ask "whats in it for the Creator?"

The Drafts for Alien Covenant seem to indicate that they was attempting to build Good Machines. So this could indicate we was Created for some Purpose to Serve a Function.

Maybe if we look at WHY would Mankind Create beings like David, then maybe the Engineers Created us for the same Purpose?

The whole Reason for Creation could be something very Ambiguous that we could come up with various Reasons, and maybe more than ONE could apply.

We cant rule out us being Created for a Purpose and then after this Purpose some Engineers decided that there was more use for us than to be merely a Labour Force for Example.

Its WHY the Answer to WHY we was Created is maybe the Biggest Question.  And maybe its not as Simple as because they COULD...   I think Holloways comment about that to David was just to get under his Skin.

There are Multiple Reasons that Weyland would Create a AI like David.   And just because he could would only be ONE part of this.

The Control Over these Gardens is a GOOD point.

If we take the Fiji Islands and these were Places that the rest of the World Hundreds of Years ago had Agreed to NEVER visit or interact with.   Then its likely they would be NO-WHERE near as Advanced as most of Civilization is now.  We could Ponder the same with the Americas if Europeans never SET-FOOT there.

When Outside people would Visit these places, then the Knowledge Passed on would allow them (Natives) to Advance, but this can be controlled by How Much Knowledge you give them.

We could wonder if some of the Engineers had NOT committed a Hubris, but maybe they had Passed On too much Information and maybe we was NOT supposed to be passed on as much as some Engineers had, which became the Hubris.

We could take Planet of the Apes as a Example... if we Genetically Advanced Apes to be more Human for example, then if we placed them on a Island that is VERY FAR from other Lands, then you could LIMIT and Control at what Rate they would Advance and if they showed signs of Advancing on their own that you was Concerned with then you could PUT a stop to it.

Allowing Genetically Advanced Apes the Freedom and Access/Knowledge that Mankind has, could lead to them gaining a Equal Footing or even Surpassing us. (if they are of Equal or Greater Intelligence).  

And so indeed Controlling the Knowledge that Intelligent beings can gain and Free-will/Freedom to use this Knowledge is something that you would want to be CAREFUL with when it comes to what you allow your Creations to HAVE/DO.

When things GET out of Control.... then its what action do you take!   The Engineers Answer seems VERY FLAWED and Overkill.

Unless they have Seeded Similar to us on other Planets or had came to take some of us with them before they PULL THE PLUG! (think like Noahs Ark).  But again this really does depend on WHY we was Created and WHAT Purpose they had for us, and WHAT happened once we are NOT needed for that Purpose anymore!

1997

Creators: Warren Ellis and Tom Raney

The Engineer

The Engineer has spent his adult life extending the possibilities of his own body with technology using his own body as a test bed for the changes he wants to make to the world. He tried to give the world nanotechnology, miraculous engines of creation no larger than bacteria. The authority stopped him from giving the people a thing that would remove need from the world.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Engineer_%28Wildstorm_Universe%29

Certainly this is NOT something i had overlooked, we have witnessed the Deacon but David has NOT..

However he had Witnessed that Dr Shaw who could not Bare Child had became Pregnant per-say with a None Traditional Fetus. David would likely be Curious to what would have became of Dr Shaws Child. We have to assume he could make out more from LV-223 than the Viewer Could....

And so cant rule out him wishing to Retry the Experiment that he had done on LV-223 but be around to see the Results.

Indeed he had witnessed the Neomorph which was created NOT via any Sexual Intercourse...  But what we could also Ponder is that does David know for 100% what caused Dr Shaw's Trilobite?

If he was unsure he could maybe want to Discover what caused her to be able to Give Birth (Gestate) such a Creature.

*Was it a case of Infected Sperm, Fertilized one of her Egg Cells?

*Had Holloway only been the means to Transfer the Pathogen (maybe Eye-Worms) to Dr Shaw and THIS is what infected her Egg Cell?

*Or would these merely had been passed on as above but only Needed a Womb to Gestate and so NONE of her Egg Cells are involved?

Those are the 3 most likely Scenarios to HOW she came to grow the Trilobite inside of her.  I think its ok to ask the Question of IF our David really knows what caused it.  Or IF-NOT then would he maybe want to try and Replicate it?

Its all speculation but if you was in David's shoes and was willing to Experiment with the Neomorph and Black Goo, then we cant rule out him wishing to see what this stuff does to a Female Productive System.

""more Perfect Method", if David would hear you, he would surely snap your neck."

You certainly would not put that past him... i dont think he is the Type to Make and Keep Friends ;)

WildC.A.T.S/Aliens was a one-shot comic book and intercompany crossover event, published by Wildstorm (while still part of Image Comics) and Dark Horse Comics in 1998. The comic was written by Warren Ellis, pencilled by Chris Sprouse, with Kevin Nowlan inking and Laura Depuy as the colorist.

When the idea for the crossover was explained to him Warren Ellis was not enthusiastic; he kept telling them he thought the idea was "Bloody stupid" but was won around when "he was told that he could kill any character he wanted". It was this free hand that allowed him to clear the decks and launch a new superhero team with his own characters (the exception being Swift), the Authority. Scott Dunbier, the editor in charge at the time, explained the thinking behind this: "One of my goals was that this should be a book with lasting effects, unlike the usual cross-company epics that come and go and mean nothing. Since Warren Ellis was wrapping up his run on Stormwatch, before diving into The Authority, I thought it would be an interesting idea to kill off a large portion of the remaining Stormwatch characters, the ones that wouldn’t be moving on to the new book."

dk, you've made a good Point. Imagine that the first movie that a person watches from the Alien Saga is Alien Resurrection. Then, yes. For that person, the first human burst is the medically assisted burst of the Ellen Ripley's Alien Queen. 

It's kind of sad, weird and funny.

BigDave

As you said, when Shaw says “We were so wrong”, it could mean a lot of things. Wrong about going there, wrong about the Engineers (being nice), wrong about “an invitation” etc. The message could also have changed from being an invitation to not being an invitation.

As you also point out, it’s possible to look upon the Engineers as gardeners of space seeing us as micro-organisms in a petri dish carefully controlling that the lid is on and nothing (no one) escapes (from Earth). LV-223 could have been like a greenhouse where they investigated and experimented with people which would fit well with the Hill abduction.

Yes, it’s possible that the Engineers in their endeavour of creating beautiful worlds filled with perfect beings eventually suffered from hubris, going too far with genetic engineering. In their pursuit of creating perfect worlds and perfect beings, instead, they eventually created monsters . . .

The question “Why did they create us?” could get the same answer that David gets from Holloway: “We made you because we could”. Why do we create perfect, beautiful gardens or parks? Because we can and we enjoy it. But we also have to control them so that it doesn’t go out of control . . .

BigDave But David never saw the mature trilobite, only as a incentive thing in the womb using an ultrasound machine. He has never seen the deacon. He had only seen the neomorph which does not involve nothing sexual. 

"more Perfect Method", if David would hear you, he would surely snap your neck.

Certainly there was a LOT of potential to WHAT does a Engineer World and Ships look like... that Sadly with Alien Covenant it just never seemed to match Expectations.

To be fair way back at the Time of Prometheus i think we could have Envisioned Worlds like KRYPTON from the 2013 Movie Man of Steel (Superman).

If you have ever seen that Movie, if you look at the First Act and Imagine this World but with a Touch of HR Giger more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic then INDEED it is maybe NOT far off what many expected to see with the Engineers.

I think that Man of Steel also did seem to be very Prometheus like as far as the Engineers go, it seemed to borrow some ideas from Prometheus as far as Concepts and Earlier Draft Ideas.

You could actually look at the Man of Steel Plot as far as the Kryptonians and apply that to Prometheus History. We have a Race who are Ancient and Advanced who go to Worlds to Terraform them so they can Live on other Worlds, their own WORLD is Dying... 

They are a Race who Struggle to Procreate Naturally and use Technology and Advanced Nano-AI to help with this Process and their Technology.   The whole SEND out Kal (Superman) to Earth Plot kind of mirrors what Ridley Scott had said about the Engineers and Jesus Christ ;)

I only say this because when i look at Krypton and the Technology the Buildings and think WHAT if we had a HR Giger Spin on this... then it would INDEED had fitted Perfectly with the Engineers.

If the Engineers Ancestors had Destroyed their own WORLD too, and began to Terraform Worlds to Spread their Species across the Galaxy, then maybe we could actually have MASSIVE Engineer Ships that Act like Huge Cities?

So maybe somewhere in the Galaxy we have many remnants of the Engineers Ships, surely its NOT just limited to the Pebble Seeding Ship, the Juggernaught/Derelict and the Scorpion Ship from Alien Covenant!

dk, i'm talking about the moment when the newborn bursts from the womb of the full grown Alien Queen, that was surgically removed from Ellen Ripley's chest. The video that i above linked is This scene that i finished to describe.

"we still have the issue of the Derelict (filled with thousands or millions of eggs and the space jockey looking fossilized)."

Absolutely as of the Time David had Tucked Daniels into BED so to speak we are 17.5 Years away from when the Nostromo Crew Discover the Derelict.

The Space Jockey/Derelict look like they had been there for MUCH longer than that, and indeed it was ORIGINALLY intended to had been there for Thousands of Years.

But ALAS things Change.... but they can also Change again... who knows IF we will see Disney offer a Explanation to the Derelict and IF they would make a U-Turn to Please Fans?

Regarding the Perfection of his Queen, for him to make this Statement he must feel PLEASED with his Xenomorph he just needs to Perfect a way to Procreate them.

Some Fans (usually on other sites) think this does mean we would be seeing the Creation of the Xenomorph Queen and this would explain the Many Thousands of Eggs.

Because WELL we see David has only TWO Face Huggers and 3000+ Good Souls.... so thats not going to be Many Thousands of Eggs and HOW does he Change those Colonist and Embryo's into Thousands of Eggs?

If we go by the ALIEN Franchise... we could assume.

*EGG MORPH but then its a case of if we would see TWO Xenomorphs going around and Egg Morphing Thousands of Humans...

*QUEEN this is more Easier, we could see someone Birth a Queen, why maybe the Space Jockey Births the Queen and lays all those Eggs... SIMPLE!

But i dont think Ridley Scott would be going the James Cameron Route!

David does appear to have a Interest in Daniels, he wants to do to Daniels what he did with Dr Shaw... which does-not just mean he wants to try an Kiss/Have Sex!

Its indicated that he required Dr Shaw to be able to achieve the Results that he had with his Xenomorphs. This could lead to some Speculations to HOW.

Some of David's Drawings could show us what he had done or attempted/had planned.

1) Infected Dr Shaw with one of his Xenomorphs, then Removed the Organism and Repeat... BUT then how does this explain the EGGS?

2) Used Dr Shaws Reproductive System/Egg Cells to Produce the Eggs.

3) Evolve Dr Shaw into a Hybrid to then Create the Eggs.

The Closest we saw to a XENOMORPH in Prometheus came from Dr Shaw, by Virtue of her Unnatural Child the Trilobite (a kind of Face Hugger).

So a GOOD Starting point for anyone Interested in Replicating a Deacon would be the Knowledge that either the Black Goo infects a Egg Cell or a Infected Sperm infects a Egg Cell.

Replicating this would be a Good Starting Point, but then you could attempt to Engineer/Evolve the Offspring, we also see how the Neomorph Procreated via the Spores and so David had likely created a Hybrid Neomorph and Deacon and Experimented Numerous Times to get the Xenomorph..   ONCE achieved he could maybe with the Black Goo Break this Organisms DNA down and apply this to the EGG CELLS to create the Eggs.

If this is kind of what happened, then David's comments would imply the Lengthy Process was Tedious and he needed to find a more Perfect Method.

so if Infecting a Humans Egg Cells to Produce Xenomorph Eggs was Tedious.  Then maybe he could Ponder what happens if you have a Human Hybrid instead?

So that the Female is Part Xenomorph and would Pass on Traits to the Egg Cells, maybe if the Procreation Traits of the Organism are more Prominent than a Humans then the Egg Cells could automatically become Xenomorph Eggs instead.  Which would be a Less Tedious method to obtain Eggs.

So maybe the above is some idea of the Queen that David wishes to Perfect and what FATE lies ahead for Daniels?

Of course the Lazy Route would be that David Engineers a Face Hugger to Produce a Traditional Queen, but i just DONT think this is something that Ridley Scott would have shown us.

"Well, we don’t know for sure whether the star map given to early civilisations was an invitation or not."

I think it depends on what you take into account, as i had said earlier on the Topic, while Dr Shaw makes some assumptions First that it was a Invitation and then that she was So Wrong.... she also Chooses to Believe her Faith in-spite of her Findings... so we cant take her as 100% Reliable.

The Biggest Question should be about the Reasons the Engineers Created us and then spent Time coming down to Interact with us... for WHAT reason?

The Answer will HELP us make sense of everything else... but indeed things can Change... and Dr Shaw wanted to know WHY the Engineers Changed their Minds.

The Engineers Agenda and Purpose is the BIG ONE as far as how it Effects everything.  Ridley Scott keeps mentioning they are Gardeners of Space.  (Genetic)

But indeed you DONT leave you Calling Card and Address to People who you DONT want to Find you. So you could look at this being a Invitation..... but in reality its likely that the Engineers had NEVER intended us to Leave Earth on our own Terms and without the Engineers we are supposed to have been Incapable of this FEAT!

How Wrong was they!

"which might have been a happier place in times of yore"

Certainly having LV-223 as a Bio-Weapons Facility for over 35'000 Years with the Intention of using the stuff to Destroy their Creations...  JUST dont make Sense!   As far as WHY they would Pinpoint this place.

But then Dr Shaw and Holloway could have been mistaken and taken the Prometheus to the Wrong Place, as they could have pointed out Planet 4 (but as this place seemed to be HIDDEN, they maybe determined that the Map was to the closest place that seemed to be more Habitable... Hence LV-223

I still think LV-223 was likely a Sandbox/Nursery/Green House to Develop, Upgrade Experiments and then Seed down the Desired Results on Worlds.

At some LATTER point a group of Engineers had became OBSESSED with the Genetic Traits of a Organism that Predated the Deacon and they saw its DNA/Traits as being something more PERFECT than their own Humanoid DNA and so began their Obsession and what LV-223 then became.

If we come back to the Gardeners of Space then ASSUME the Engineers Prime Agenda is to Create/Evolve Life then we have to ask to what END?

If we take this to the Next Level in Peter Weyland and the Creation of Synthetic Life then we could look at a Agenda of the Pursuit of always trying to Evolve this Creation to Perfect it.... and if this is what the Engineers had been doing then lets change this to Mankind.

Throw David out and Replace with Replicants as its more Relevant..   so your trying to Created a Humanoid Species for a Set Purpose and your looking at how to make them more Enhanced (Übermensch ) then its HOW FAR can you Engineer a Superior Humanoid.

After tweaking the Humanoid Genomes and NOT being able to Perfect It, as there is always something to Perfect, you could be like... What if we gave these Humans the EYESIGHT of a Eagle or Owl, what if they could Grow Wings and FLY?

So then your trying to NOT Enhance the Human Genome but your trying to ADD some Traits from other Organisms.   I think this is where the ENCOUNTER and EXPERIMENTS with the Precursor to the Xenomorph came about!

it was something the Engineers had then experimented with that they SHOULD-NOT have...  I am sure if you look at the Traits of the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph then you could ASK.... if we could extract and apply some of these Traits to Humanoids then they could be of Great Benefit in Creating a Übermensch

But alas this all made more Sense before Alien Covenant, because NOW we have to contend with the possibility that there is ONE GOO and it always was able to Create Such Traits.

I could go on more in Detail of HOW it all could fit together (Engineers Agenda and Fall) but that would maybe be a little LONG WINDED...

But i think looking at Replicants and David gives us a Good View at what may have taken place.. But alas the PLOT is so Bold and Ambiguous that you could come up with any number of theories.

KEY points would be around WHAT the Agenda had been for the Engineers, and WHEN/WHY had this Changed.  And also HOW does the Fallen Angels and Prometheus Myth connect.

Then HOW does the "Sometimes to Create One must first Destroy"  fit... which really comes down to TWO Possible Reasons.

IgnorantGuy

David says: "But I've still one thing left to perfect", "My queen" (looking at Daniels).

David wanted to make Shaw into his "queen" as well, keeping her alive but mutated and experimented upon. Perhaps he used the eggs produced monthly by her (together with the pathogen) to make the xenomorph eggs?

There were perhaps 7 eggs in the basement which would then mean that Shaw was alive for about 7 months . . .

chli He says he found his Queen, but I think it is a reference to the queen of Bathsheba, the desire for whom marks the Downfall of the Biblical king David. It might be possible that Daniels will birth something, but I don't thinl she will be made into a Cameron Queeen. 

IgnorantGuy

Well, as I see it, it depends on two things (at least):

The first is what David means by saying that he will create a queen out of Daniels?

The second thing is that there seem to be millions of eggs in the cargo hold of the Derelict. David could perhaps create 2000 eggs from the colonists on the Covenant?

chli Is it even correct to assume that there exists a queen before the one in Aliens. It might as well be the first one.

Even if we accept that David creates the xenomorph that the crew of the Nostromo encounter, we still have the issue of the Derelict (filled with thousands or millions of eggs and the space jockey looking fossilized).

It's 18 years between the disaster on Planet 4 and Captain Dallas, Kane, and Lambert finding the Derelict. In this time David has to traverse long distances of space, creating a queen, and the Derelict ending up on LV-426 . . .

Well, we don’t know for sure whether the star map given to early civilisations was an invitation or not. We don’t know for sure why the engineers created us either and then decided to destroy us (that’s what Shaw wanted to find out).

One thing is for sure, though. If you don’t want visitors, you don’t give everyone your address. The address might have been LV-223 (which might have been a happier place in times of yore). Or the address might have been Planet 4 (presumably somewhere close by).

It’s possible that the engineers looked upon us as parents do. You can’t have meaningful discussions with children. They have to grow up first. When they grow up, there can be good relationships between generations but there can also be a generation clash. Maybe they saw us as mischievous children with no hope of there ever being a meaningful relationship?

Another possibility is that they demanded power and obedience and when humans stopped worshipping them it was time for vengeance (nemesis).

When the star maps were given to us, we hadn’t reached the technological level of space travel but the engineers visited us and saw how we evolved. Around the time of the roman empire, they decided to wipe us out so we didn’t reach the space age (All or some of the engineers decided this?).

The invitation was withdrawn . . .

setaverde I don't claim to know either. I might be missing something. This is what makes discussions interesting.

I think that Queen from AR was actually surgically removed and din't burst but I could be wrong. I haven't seen AR for more than a year.

@BigDave, This is the Proof that Alien films are much more than just Xenomorphs.