Comments (Page 213)

Pretty sure RS described the Engineers as a civilization in the commentary of AC when he was describing the hall of heads.

As far as the Planet 4 Engineers being the originals again, it was mentioned by David in the novelization.

"...with nothing to occupy myself other than the compiling of a simple collection, I began to do a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Simple cross-breeding, hybridizing, what have you. I like to think that the ill fate inhabitants of this world, the original Engineers, would gaze on my work with approval."

Kudos to this topic: http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/45718

chli I've just rewatched the scene after the crash. Shaw is to leave the "life boat" with a bag of supplies. The Prometheus blew up to smithereens so it is highly likely that nothing remained to salvage. The pictures of Shaw (1 in the derelict and 1 on David's altar to her) in Covenant is pure magic as I don't see how could have survived the explosion of the Prometheus neither does Shaw take with her pictures (only the ring). 

First of all, it’s 2000 years between the Engineer we meet in Prometheus and the Engineers we have a brief view upon in AC. What has happened during that time? What has evolution executed? Have the Engineers changed physically and psychologically? Have they changed in their way of viewing the world and life?

We know there are different races on Earth who look differently, have different customs. traditions and religions. But we also know that we strive to perfect ourselves, get rid of disease, longevity etc.

Are the Engineers we encounter on LV-223 genetically enhanced or perhaps made in a laboratory in order to perform certain tasks? Or are they just another race and separated by 2000 years between the ones we briefly encounter in AC?

Humanity consists of individuals who are different. They are therefore suited for different tasks: some are strong, some are fast, some are intelligent, some have empathy etc

I think the Engineers on LV-223 were just militaries (we're in the army now :) ) and scientists in their service. The task was to wipe out humanity since we didn't reach the wishes that "the gardeners of space" had hoped for.

The Engineers had left all human strife behind a long time ago. They had understood the folly . . .

Shaw went to Miss Vicker's life pod because she needed oxygen. It was not in order to stroll about. The photograph of her and Holloway can hardly have been in Miss Vicker's quarters . . .

As for "the wolf". I interpret it as meaning the xenomorph (not genetic engineering). David also has his "lambs" to experiment upon, but "the wolf" is "the perfect organism" which David will unleash if they don't heed his olive branch (peace treaty).

Is David the creator of the xenomorph or isn't he? That is the question. A "best of both worlds solution", would that really satisfy everybody?

"Planet 4 inhabitants and Ridley told him that they were simply the civilians of the Engineer race while the ones from Prometheus were militant types"

Yeah i have heard RS call them Military a few times, i dont think this adds up but thats for another Debate. Thats because when i look at the overall clues and the Ships i come to the Conclusion they are Seeding Ships.

I will add as far as Original and Military then again we could consider the LV-223 kind are Enhanced, so kind of like a Cross between Replicants and Universal Solider if you would ;)

I am having trouble finding a Source for what RS had said.

I have to try and dig it up.... but he had said those Engineers in Alien Covenant are the Original Engineers, he also had implied that the Engineers are a Civilization and not a RACE.. again i cant seem to Find a Source...

Now did it just Imagine it lol

@Dark Nebula

Nice Catch i can only make out the E the other one below is hard as its not full but could be Engineer Letter Q or R

I think its a nice touch to go and see it on the Big Screen, as sometimes you dont get that same effect when watching a movie on the Small Screen.

"But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?"

Your reply kind of would have been like mine,  in that Dr Shaw and David had obtained ... a Star Chart, a Table, the Flare Gun, Tools to repair David and picture of Holloway/Shaw among other things that surely could not have all been found in the Wreckage of the Prometheus.

We have to bare in mind if we consider the Ending of Prometheus as Chronological then the Deacon had Gestated in the Engineer for over 4 days... enough time for David and Dr Shaw to Salvage from the Life-Boat, the Engineer maybe appearing as Dead?

Again its a case of Poor Writing and Oversight perhaps.

Regarding the Quote i took, as far as "But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?"

Well the Crossing Draft by Logan seemed to show the Juggernauts have Showering Facilities and a Room that grows Fruit lol...  But then also Dr Shaw was attracted to David and they Sex so enough said about that Poor Writing ;)

@Chli

The Banish the Wolf comment is Ambiguous it could be regarding the Genetic Engineering using other Organic Traits to Evolve themselves.

I think its a case of how do they Fix it?

1) Cave in and U-Turn again and somehow show that the Xenomorph is Ancient and David does-not create it?

2) Continue with the David as the Creator Arc despite it NOT pleasing most Fans..

3) Try and find a way to give a best of both worlds Solution?

You're welcome Ingeniero :)

Perhaps the gardener/sacrificial/worship Engineers kept specimens of all of their creations in the silos & the LV-223 'fallen' Engineers turned those silos into hostile biological weaponry vessels.

Wonder if there were even giant Juggernauts which carried the silos & placed them in situ, as the base of the silo has legs?

Hah, that's a pretty cool idea Dave! Arcturians who can bewitch & enthrall other species, using a form of telepathic mind control.

Much easier than shape-shifting! ;)

chli Wasn't Shaw scavenging for resource on the life boat when the Engineer attacked? I cannot see from where else she could  have found anything as everything else blew up. But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?

Well for RS, David becoming the Spacey Jokey probably would have been a great twist, but reactions happened...

I will get my copy of this great book next week.

There is one interesting little detail, when Daniels, David, Tennessee, and Lope escaped from the planet 4, in the next shot of Covenant orbiting the planet some Engineer letters are visible on the surface.

Our main admin Chris was formally invited by 20th Century Fox to the premiere of Alien: Covenant. At the premiere, he got to meet Ridley Scott and asked him some questions regarding the film. He asked him about Planet 4 inhabitants and Ridley told him that they were simply the civilians of the Engineer race while the ones from Prometheus were militant types (he didn't publish the interview anywhere for some unknown reason, he just mentioned that in one of my threads). 

As far as the planet 4 Engineers being the originals, I think that was mentioned in the novelization of the film. 

Nevertheless, comparing both factions side by side might imply that Planet 4 Engineers were simply just civilians, the original, pure race, thus why they appeared human-like (their planet is identical to Earth btw). And the Prometheus ones were just enhanced soldiers, thus the whiter skin, blacker eyes, and enormous strength.

Maybe you're right. Some of this stuff was already discussed after Prometheus (Annunaki vs Iggigi, war of the gods, creation of men to do the work of the Igiggi etc.). Sounds reasonable. More so since Prometheus (=Lucifer/Satan) indicated, that there is a tension between two fractions: Zeus vs Prometheus or God vs Luciter/Satan. I hope that he will give the Engineers back some of their majestic appearance - which they lost in my mind in AC (being killed of like that without any form of defense was dissapointing to me).

However this might be a good opportunity: you said again and again, that RS stated the Planet 4 Engineers were the Originals. Please show me the source. I've googled it and this Comment by RS was nowhere to be found! This seems like one of the most crucial comments regarding the Engineer-backstory so please show me where he said that. I'd like to find out more.

Well, David and Shaw must have had a quick look at the wreckage site (They wouldn’t go to Miss Vicker’s lifeboat. Shaw knows what’s there) on their way to the other facility and the juggernaut there.

Yes, at present, W-Y knows about LV-223, Planet 4, and Origae-6. These would, therefore, have to be wiped out. Otherwise, there would be no point in going to LV-426 in search of a xenomorph.

Yes, David becoming the Space Jockey would be unsatisfactory, to say the least . . .

And I can’t see Engineers continuing David’s work since to me it seems they left that path a long time ago: “they tried to banish the wolf. And undo their creation”. For what they had done, they thought that “sacrifice cleansed them of their sin”.

Certainly we dont know 100% what Transpired between Prometheus and the Crossing.  It certainly looks like a number of Items had been Salvaged from either the Prometheus Wreckage or the Life-Boat before Dr Shaw and David had departed LV-223, so David could have gone back we simply dont know.

LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 offer some Conflicts with the ALIEN Franchise at Present... after David sends the Advent Message you have to think the Company would Investigate at least TWO of those Places.

LV-223 and Planet 4 have Experiments, Black Goo and Organisms related to the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph and so we have to ask WHY does the Company only Pursue LV-426 and then Ripley in the ALIEN Franchise?

So its likely these places would be DESTROYED or of NO USE to the Company by the Time we arrive after the events of ALIEN at least.

Considering the Plot of Alien Covenant and what Ridley Scott says about the Engineers will return and how we have YET to have the Space Jockey/Derelict event, then we have to WONDER what becomes of the Engineers after the events of the Prequels that are YET to unfold.

I will add in Context to the Events Connected to the Eggs... that a lot of Fans are NOT pleased with the David as Creator Plot, i think Best Case Scenario for them is some Indication in a Future Movie that SHOWS that the Eggs had been on LV-426 for a LONG LONG Time.. (Prior to Prometheus).  A Number of people would actually rather see a Reboot of the Prequels to De-Canon Prometheus and Alien Covenant... i cant see that happening.

A Worse Case Scenario for some Fans... Definite Proof that David's Eggs get on the Derelict and WORSE!  That David becomes the Space Jockey.  I feel this Scenario is actually more possible than a Indication that the Derelict and Eggs are a Ancient Event.  Because it would fit with the THEMES at play in the Prequels and would either show David's Hubris or his Redemption.

I think we need to look at a Scenario thats Middle Ground that places David as a Middle Man, and that the Experiments with and Evolution of his Creation at the hands of the Engineers proves to be THEIR Hubris.

So our Space Jockey is a Engineer or some Related Species..... the Destruction of LV-223 could be used as a Plot Device to Tear a Hole in Space/Time that sends the Derelict back Thousands of Years.

(but this could also cause a Paradox)

Once again i have to thank SPAM for Bumping a Topic i missed.

I think Certainly there is Potential to have a Sequel to ALIEN, and one that does-not contradict ALIENS.  With the Prequel Route of ALIEN Covenant which appears to Indicate that as of 17.5 Years prior to ALIEN the Derelict and Egg Cargo will NOT have been on LV-426.  We dont know HOW the Prequels would End...

But it appears that as of the Year 2105 there is NO Crashed Ship on LV-426 that leaves under 18 Years for the event that leads to the Derelict to Transpire.

This Potentially means the Derelict could have only been on LV-426 for like 5-10 years prior to the Nostromo being re-routed to the Location, to carry out Special Order 937 it is possible HAD the Prequels concluded we would have some idea of what Triggered  had Special Order 937

How does this relate to a ALIEN Sequel....  well we have to Wonder about Special Order 937 and having issued this Order and the Failure to Carry it out in ALIEN, we have to ask would the Company just simply Give Up?

So we have always had to ASK.... how come between sending the Nostromo to LV-426 and the Set-Up of Hadleys Hope how come they Never Went Back?

The Plot of Alien Covenant and its Advent Viral Video would indicate the Company would know quite a bit about the Xenomorph and Eventually LV-426 in order to issue Special Order 937

This leaves a few Avenues to Explore but as we DONT know how the Prequels would conclude what happens to LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 plus any other Worlds/Events that Transpire Connected to the Xenomorph and David.

There is ONE avenue that we know 100% what Transpired and that is we are left with the Derelict and Special Order 937 in the Year 2122

So when we come to ALIENS we see in the Extended Cut the Jordons are sent out to Investigate a Area of LV-426 and come across the Derelict.

We see the Jordan's appear to Enter from the Same Side that the Nostromo Crew had, only there is Damage to the Area the Jordan's pass through.  Its hard to make out HOW MUCH of the Derelict is Damaged but Certainly the ARM Section to the Left is INTACT..  the Scene is Foggy and so we cant see the FULL SHIP... but Certainly the Entrance Point appears Damaged in a way that would indicate the Damage is NOT on a Large Scale.  (Externally).

What can cause such a Hole, yet NOT effect the External Area or so it seems?

We could SPECULATE that some kind of EXPLOSION from inside could Cater for the Hole?

So this leaves it open to Wonder if another Mission had gone to LV-426 and gone to the Derelict and at the Climax a Explosion had Occurred from inside... maybe likely a Attempt to BLOW the Ship Up?

This Speculation does give us a Avenue to Explore such a Event in a ALIEN Sequel ;)   which likely means some kind of Cover-Up Conspiracy after.

Well, it’s possible, of course, that David went back to LV-223 when Shaw was in hypersleep but I see no reason for believing that he did. According to the movie he created everything in the lab (but not in the novel), eggs, hybrids etc.

Returning to LV-223 would be interesting indeed, seeing what's inside the other facilities. However, W-Y must know by now that there is something interesting on LV-223. Wouldn’t they go there rather than letting a star freighter check out a signal?

If everything is wiped out, Planet 4, Origae-6 (if they have been there) and LV-223, the Engineers can leave this part of the galaxy for good.

But there was one Engineer who left LV-223 2000 years ago . . .

@LONE

Having looked again at the Arcturian from  The Long Tomorrow i think its interesting to Ponder what Influences that James Cameron could have taken?

A Shape Shifting Species could be interesting, maybe a bit Complex!

How about a Species that may-not appear Visually Appeasing but Humanoid non the less.. who somehow have a Telepathic Link that can Effect the Minds of those they Interact with. 

By Curveball...

I think we are seeing a repeating Process of Sub-Creation.  That had not Started with the Engineers and maybe does-not End with David.

So by that i mean Revelations could come about that the Higher Level of Creation above the Engineers could come back to be via A.I or indeed a None-Biological Being/Race (Machine if you would).  Not David though lol

Or that maybe the Engineers (even Planet 4) are a Sub-Creation by another Ancient Ancestor of Mankind... meaning they CAME FROM US... or our Ancestors.

For example this is Interesting on the Earlier Concept work for the Cathedral Dome.... TWO Concepts by TWO different Artists.

Oh NO!  not that kind of Curveball!

In all Fairness you really cant rule out more Curve-balls that will UPSET the Fans!  The Space Jockey as David or one of his Creations?   Who knows what RS would have given us...  He had indicated that by the END of the Prequels we arrive at WHO is in the Chair on the Derelict and it was said in a way that seems to indicate he knows who is behind it, and we have seen them (one who Orchestrates it) and his comments could indicate its not as Obvious as a Engineer.

"the notion of Over-man has nothing to do with the body"

Indeed i think we can look at the Übermensch as not meaning Super-Human aka Human Enhancement as far as Physically/Genetically.  So we could look at it as in some other ways that Zarathustra covers.. In that the concept of having to have Gods and a Soul to counter our Meaningless Life...  if i recall right one Drafts or a Comment by someone working on Alien Covenant had indicated the Engineers got upset because we had invented the Notion of a Soul and a Route to Immortality/Afterlife.   so its interesting to look at the Nihilism connection... this is a Realization that Weyland had upon his Death "There is Nothing"

Maybe aspects of Nietzsche as far as his Works and Ideas could be applied to the PLOT?  I am not Expert on his Works, something i will have to do a bit more Research and reading into.

The context i mainly using in regards to Übermensch is the pursuit to Advance yourself, but indeed its interesting to consider this as not only a Genetic Evolution/Goal but a Spiritual/Philosophical one.

"But, in a flashback scene (2000 years back in time on LV-223) we see an Engineer running towards a juggernaut, sets off, but eventually crash lands on LV-426"

There are a number of ways we could go and indicate the Derelict and Cargo had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years, without having to SHOW the Event.

A Movie that goes to LV-223 could indicate this for us, by Virtue of Exploring another Complex and either on a Ship or in some Room have some Engineer Storage Devices that contain Small Xenomorph Eggs and either IMPLY that these are Successful Results or Eggs that the Engineers had used to Experiment with.

Indicating these Eggs had been on LV-223 for Many Thousands of Years would give us some AMBIGUITY to Alien Covenant and allow the LV-426 Event to become a Mystery again... One that will NOT have a Answer but one where its left OPEN to those Eggs being there for a LONG LONG time.

Where Fans can Speculate if David had gone back to LV-223 to obtain one of those Eggs! Certainly gives David a good reason to have Dr Shaw placed into Cryo-sleep for a Journey that may-not have taken LONG but Dr Shaw does-not know that.

Certainly gives David more avenues to HOW he learned the Engineers Ways...

You could go Further by Spoon Feeding that indeed those Eggs had been on the Derelict, and that David had obtain them as such.

Problem is so much that counters that idea... David said his Creatures would be UNLEASHED on the Galaxy if Weyland-Yutani take up his Advent Message... but then we could Speculate this is regarding his VERSION.

If we got a Sequel that was more Alieny that went to LV-223, its a case of what do they then do with David and the Covenant and what happens to them?  Another Alieny movie about his Xenomorphs while giving Clues to the others...

Engineers rock up with the Original Xenomorphs vs Davids Cheap Knock Offs?

Some Fans would see this as a WET-DREAM... i think its quite different to what RS would have done...  But Disney will Call the Shots now and who knows..

I wont rule out a Ripley vs Engineers, vs Predators vs Aliens ;)

I think that to a degree yes the Neomorph is a By-Product of a A.I and maybe that does-not mean its a A.I.

The Xenomorph regardless if we look at the David Created it route, or the only other Evidence in the Franchise that covers the Origins a bit more (Alien Engineers).  Then the indication on Both Accounts is the Xenomorph is a Specifically Engineered Organism and so a kind of A.I

I think it depends on HOW you look at A.I as for the most part its associated with giving something a Artificial Intelligence as in allowing the creation of something that can THINK/PROCESS like a Human but Simulated and thus is connected with Computing/Programing and Software and not the Nuts and Bolts of the Machine, but what can make it become Intelligent and Function with Little or No Input from the Creator/User.

In this Context then the only way a Organic Life-Form can be considered A.I is if it has artificially been Modified/Engineered to have a Intelligence that is closer to a Human than what the Organism was Naturally.  

In this Context then Genetically Modifying a Apes Brain so that it becomes Vastly more Intelligent could be considered a A.I but it would be a more GREY area if we take a Human and Engineer some Ape Genomes/Traits to make the Human more Agile/Stronger because well if the Intelligence is the same as a None Ape Engineered Human then they would not be a A.I in this case.

It really is down to HOW you look at A.I for the most part it is Considered the attempt to Create a Artificial Brain or a Computer that can operate closely to a Brain.

Ridley Scott seems to suggest that David and Replicants are only different because mainly ONE is Synthetic and the other Organic... but both A.I as far as he is concerned. 

Regarding the connection to ALIEN...

This has been debated over and over, indeed the Original Idea was that the Xenomorph was NOT a Creation by David and the U-Turn/Curveball is something that in Hindsight may have been a Bad Call!

so its a case of do we ACCEPT this.... do those who will eventually give us the Answers Accept it, despite the Dislike by most Fans?

Or do we try and think of a way to Fix It?

The theory i put forwards makes sense to me, i understand it may not for others... it works for me because of the Themes at Play, Genetic Engineering. If we look at Genetic Engineering and Enhancing and look at WHY would anyone do this... usually you would find its to Enhance/Improve and Perfect something to Speed Up/Cheat Evolution.  I think the whole Space Gardeners and Engineers plot does show us a Species who go around Engineering Various Organisms.

Then if we look at the Experiments on LV-223 we could assume the Engineers had been experimenting with a all manner of related Organisms, trying to Perfect Something just as David was doing on Planet 4.

If we assume this was the case with some Engineers, then if they look at the Deacon they created, and then they saw what David had achieved with the Black Goo, they could be INTERESTED in what he has done and seen Great Potential in this.   So they decide to Evolve it Further.

I think that would Work/Fit for some it means that David still had a role in the Xenomorph and they Clutch at Straws that its still a Ancient Organism thats on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

Rightly so too, because thats what the Impression was, and the Original Intention..

The other FIX is they can come up with another way to show the Xenomorph was on LV-426 for Thousands of Years...   Then maybe they have to explain WHAT it was that David had done.  For this they maybe have to indicate to us WHY it is David had decided to and managed to Create Something Similar?  Where did he get the Eggs or was he just Following a OLD Recipe Book to Re-create the Xenomorph?

Some Fans use Evidence from the Novel to back this up, but alas it appears those are LINES that ADF had added. We could go this route.... but i think its SILLY to have the Engineers keeping something like  a Egg on Planet 4, more so to then USE them to Sacrifice Engineers/Humans on Planet 4 (as some Speculate).

A way to FIX it if we go for this route has to be via David and some dialog where he says he had taken the Engineers Xenomorph and Perfected it... which then means we have to be shown that David's version is a Improvement but this would NOT please Fans either.

How David managed to Perfect it as far as from what source can be left Unanswered and Ambiguous.

"I wonder how you deduce the Engineers being sterile? "

I must Apologize for some Confusion, i am assuming this is in reply to my TOPIC?  If so i understand that sometimes wires can get crossed, well that its sometimes a Tedious Task to Read my Long Replies/Topics so something can be missed ;) (by the reader).

I do-not speculate our Engineers in Total are Sterile, Alien Covenant proves this to NOT be the case.  But prior to Alien Covenant this was a subject to debate regarding our Marble White Engineers. which the original idea was that they WAS (Sterile) a potential consequence of Genetic Manipulation gone too far. But off course this does-not mean thats the case as far as the Theatrical Release of Prometheus.. it was something that was NEVER answered either way, despite the Sacrificial Engineer having NO Nipples.

With RS coming out to say the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals i think leaves it open for the Prometheus Engineers to be a Engineered Sub-Creation or a group that had Genetically Enhanced themselves and this opens up the debate about IF those Engineers (Prometheus Marble White Dudes) are Sterile?

But thats probably better off discussed on the Topic The Engineers (Sub Creation)

The relation to this Topic as a Invitation is only relevant in maybe WHICH of those Engineer Groups had left those Star Maps.  Which really could be a open ended debate with a number of more Possibilities if we are Wondering WHICH kind of Engineers had interacted with Mankind.  But then who is to say that there is NO real difference between those Engineers and the comment by RS about the Planet 4 ones being Originals does not imply any Genetic Differences. Or Certainly not from a Engineered POV.

PS i Apologize again...

Realized that i had mentioned it on this Topic here

"The Earlier Drafts do give some possible hints, as far as Prometheus goes, which maybe sets us on a path to Ponder that these are a Species who LOST the ability to Procreate"

So this was as i was saying, in context that the Original Idea was a Species that LOST the ability to Procreate (Alien Engineers) which Prometheus was a little more ambiguous about.  So the point i was making was as far as when RS called the Planet 4 (not so Engineer looking) guys the Originals.... and how RS then also called the Replicants a A.I... so i was WONDERING if this means those Prometheus Engineers are like the Engineers versions of Replicants and thus wondering if they are Sterile ;)

There is very LITTLE doubt that the Planet 4 Engineers cant Procreate, it seems Certain they can.  We dont 100% know if the Prometheus ones can either thats a bit more OPEN for Debate... unless we assume they and the Planet 4 Engineers are the Same.  Which they could be as its only a comment by Ridley Scott and comments about not wanting to meet Gods in the First Movie that can leave us to Speculate the Prometheus Engineers are different.

BigDave

I would say that there is a difference between biological (organic life) and synthetic. AI is, therefore, simply artificial. The neomorph and the xenomorph are artificial if, from the beginning, they are made in a lab from non-living substances. If, however, they originate from a living creature (DNA) then life itself is not artificial. Ju might, of course, blend these things (organic and non-organic) but then you have "life" as a starting point. Is David really living?

As for a connecting movie to Alien, it seems a bit weird if the Engineers start developing the pathogen and the xeno-traits, David continues it, and then the Engineers picks up the baton again.

How about some people from W-Y and some marines come to a destroyed and desolate planet. In a ruin, they find a recording from David. In it, he explains what has happened after they left Planet 4. He explains how everything he's dreamed of has gone up in smoke (literally). Engineers have blown up everything (nothing is left) and left that part of the galaxy. Before the end, David realizes his folly.

But, in a flashback scene (2000 years back in time on LV-223) we see an Engineer running towards a juggernaut, sets off, but eventually crash lands on LV-426 . . .

BigDave

I wonder how you deduce the Engineers being sterile? In that case, wouldn't Planet 4 be empty of Engineers (2000 years after the outbreak on LV-223)? Just a huge graveyard?

Yes, there are themes of not being able to procreate: Sir Peter Weyland has only a daughter. David is the nearest he gets to a son. I wonder why he didn't get more children (he's got everything)? Shaw is unable to get children (although she births a trilobite) and David obviously can't create children (not human anyway).

But the Engineers? Why shouldn't they be able to procreate? They lived a happy life on Planet 4 with Engineers in abundance (until David arrived).

BigDave Yes there could be the reveal that David goes back in time and creates the Bible stories and every myth based on his exploits, while also creating the human race, his sheep.

Don't fall however to the Hollywood cliches, the notion of Over-man has nothing to do with the body, it is related to overcoming nihilism, which is another term requiring an explanation.

"I'd be careful in what Ridley says about AI. There's AI and there's AI."

Certainly i think we also have to remember that A.I is Very Ambiguous, most seem to think it has to do with Robotics and Software.

If we was to Advanced Genetics to the Point we could create a Hybrid Human/Ape that would then gain more Intelligence lets say we have Created this!

You could say this would be a Artificially Created Intelligent Life Form... thus a A.I.

We could Ponder if David takes those Embryos and he Enhances them, maybe even giving them None-Human Traits then they would be a A.I too.

Yes we could also consider that if the GOO from the Prequels is NOT a Natural Substance then it could also be classed as a A.I

I do suspect that the Prometheus Engineers are Genetically Enhanced Sub-Creation by the Planet 4 Engineers (which could class them as a A.I), or if not they are a Group who had Genetically Altered themselves in which case we maybe cant class them too much as a A.I.  I have made this TOPIC to cover that and what such a Revelation would have on the Plot.

@BigDave, I agree, it's very likely that the Engineers have overseen the development of countless humanoid races on numerous worlds. It would be interesting to know if their efforts are highly directed to construction of the humanoid form. That would be consistent with the story of God creating Man in his own image.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that the Engineers would find ways of 'improving' their own form to produce a higher form of perfection, or indeed practise eugenics to create individual castes. Who knows, the Engineers on LV-223 might have been specifically created to  make a caste best-suited for space travel. I suppose you could call such beings Replicants. More Engineer than Engineer.

I'd be careful in what Ridley says about AI. There's AI and there's AI. A swarm of infectious particles (in Covenant) could be operating in unison by completely artificial and computational means, but that's a long way from how we ordinarily think of AI as being a completely artificial thinking entity. We could bio-engineer humanity ourselves, if ethics permitted, but we wouldn't have created an AI.

I think when the Engineer was looking at David it was certainly with pity. He would have appreciated that a highly intelligent thinking machine was in front of him. But he wasted no time at all in destroying what - for him - amounted to an abomination. Symbolically bashing in Weyland's skull with the product of his creation was a nice touch!

The Engineer certainly knows the potential of the upstart creatures that broke his millennial slumber. Indeed, he would see their presence as an immediate affirmation of the Engineer code of ethics, which I believe are: Thou shalt not create thinking machines. Thou shalt not permit thinking machines to be created. Thy children will permit enslavement on pain of extermination.

Three amazing pictures:

In continuation...

Ridley Scott has made some interesting comments about the Xenomorph in regards to the Future, he had claimed the Xenomorph has YET to Evolve a bit more before we get to ALIEN.

He had said that the NEXT Movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph but what KIND of a World that David would Create.

Now it depends on HOW you read into that, because maybe if a Movie just had NEOMORPHS would it Technically NOT be about the Xenomorph?

He said it would be about AI, and now we cant conclude this means ROBOTS... a AI simply means a Artificial Creation that has some Intelligence, and so a Xenomorph and Neomorph could be Considered as such.

He also said that there was ONLY so much you can do with HIM (assume Xenomorph) but you can EVOLVE him.

Most Recently he talked about the Xenomorph by saying that you could explore different ways to Evolve it, and explore different ways of Procreation.

So maybe on our ROUTE to ALIEN... we can hold some hope for seeing Various Hybrids and Forms of Procreation.

If the ENGINEERS return, and we know they are a Species who take a Great Interest in Genetic Engineering and Evolving Species, and at some point some of them had taken a Great Interest in Organisms that Predate the Deacon and lead to the Deacon.

Then there is the Potential that IF we see David go on to Create Various Hybrids... that maybe the Engineers could take a INTEREST in these and decide to TAKE some of Davids work and EVOLVE it themselves..

Off to LV-223 maybe they go to Experiment with David's Creations.... to the SPACE JOCKEYS...... HUBRIS!

We have to REMEMBER that we are 2-3 Movies away from ALIEN as far as RS has his plans... i see NO RUSH to please Fans to go about with Xenomorphs and Cameron's Queens.

As long as Fans see something ALIENY and know we are on the ROUTE to seeing Xenomorphs down the Line i think that should please most Fans.

A Plot that ENDS with maybe the Engineers or their Creators FOLLY at trying to Obtain and Evolve David's Experiments could be the IDEAL way to Rescue the Origins of the Xenomorph.

so someone ELSE plays the Final Roles in the Evolution to what we had in ALIEN.  (thus David is the Middle Man).

Certainty and thats WHY i mentioned the Deacon being a Good Starting point, while David did-not see the End Result.

If we take this Scenario of David being interested in WHY and WHAT was happening to Dr Shaw, then if the GOO was needed to Infect Sperm Cells or even if the GOO just needed to be applied to Egg Cells, you could certainly consider David would like to try such Experiments.

The Neomorph was a Very Rapid Gestation, something to have little Control Over.

The Deacon Infection is different, in that it appears to be LIKELY a infection/evolution of a Human Egg Cell.  What we also saw is that even though Dr Shaw had Terminated the Birth via C-Section the Trilobite had continued to Grow/Survive.

So if we Speculate here, and imagine that David found out HOW/WHY our Dr Shaw had been Impregnated with the Trilobite Fetus (David would have known it was NOT Human).  Then in Theory he could infect her or a Female and then Surgically Remove the Fetus at a Earlier Stage.  If he found a way to Store/Contain them then he could OBTAIN a Trilobite or Similar a Number of Times.

Back to the Topic of the Eggs, it is likely that David had used Dr Shaws Egg Cells to Produce the Xenomorph Eggs... which would mean that there is a LIMIT to how often and how many he could obtain.

And so like the Creation of the Trilobite there are Limits as far as how often you could produce such things... Using ONE Host/Egg Donor.

"“She” would then produce the xeno-eggs directly (cesarean because of the size?) but still only 12 per year?"

I think when we consider a Hybrid we cant rule out how many Traits the Black Goo would Evolve... or Xenomorph DNA would Evolve... if the objective of the Species Created would be Procreate then its likely that Dr Shaw's method of Procreation could be Evolved.

So who knows HOW often and HOW many Eggs a Hybrid could Produce....

There was some SMALL Eggs in Davids Workshop, he also had obtained some SMALL Face Huggers.  So maybe the Eggs obtained are NOT so Large but GROW.

So we could Speculate maybe a Hybrid would Produce Smaller Eggs that can be extracted or maybe even LAID?

I have done a Edit of some of the Artwork.

If something like this is Possible, we can only imagine how many Eggs could be Laid, Certainly more Frequent than a Human Reproductive System  and so something like this Created by David would indeed be a way of Perfecting his Queen.

EDIT:

A Female Human has Thousands of Eggs, but only Ovulate about 12 a Year, so we could consider that a Hybrid with a Hybrid Reproductive Egg Laying Cycle could Ovulate MUCH more than that, and maybe even Utilize most of the Eggs the Female has (Many Thousands).

I would certainly be interested in seeing such a Hybrid in Future.

"Maybe billions of years ago they fought and won wars against machines, and it's now completely taboo for them. Instead they live like monks"

Certainly you seemed to see some Compassion in the Engineers eyes towards David we could ponder if they had seen similar in the past with Consequences. 

The Engineer also seemed interested in Dr Shaw, especially if we look at the Extended Scenes of the Engineers.  Ultimately he witnessed via Peter Weylands Actions and Demands that Mankind are a Race that are Selfish and Wicked and NOW have Finally Evolved Technologically to Reach the Stars and maybe be able to USE their Technology.

But back to DAVID....

The Revelation by Ridley Scott that those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and how he mentions about AI and the Replicants are AI.  Taking this on board then it could be a Indication that the Augmented/Enhanced Prometheus Engineers are more similar to the Replicants?

If so then the Engineer would have been looking at a Mirror of himself when he saw David, and this maybe explains his PITY.  But Ultimately he also realized the Hubris and Downfall a Sub-Creation could bring, maybe he knows the Potential because this is what they had attempted against their Creators?

@Hox

Firstly yes we have to look at things from the Engineers Perspective, so lets assume if we look at a Plot similar to Planet of the Apes and we play GOD and find a way to Imprint some of our Genomes into Apes so we Evolve the Apes a little.

If we see that our Creation has started to become Independent and a Threat then it would give GOOD REASON for us to UNDO what we had Created for the Greater Good of Mankind... because the Potential is there for our Creations to become Sentient, Unruly and a Threat.   We would maybe NOT view that those Apes should have the same Rights as us, if it was NOT for us they would not had been Created in the First Place.

So it would be our DOING that created a potential Calamity and we could feel its our right to UNDO it.

The Same applies for David... we see he has Feelings, and if Walter had gained similar Emotions and Freewill then Synthetics would certainly feel Compassion for their own kind, but in the EYES of their Creators.. Mankind they would NOT be seen as a Sentient Life Form like ourselves.

Another thing to Consider is that the Engineers could likely have many Worlds that have Very Human Life on them or they could have taken Humans in the Past or even just prior to the Intended Destruction to another Place.

So they would NOT be Destroying the Entire Race of Mankind, if we they had other Very Similar Creations or indeed 100% Humans elsewhere then for the Engineers the Destruction of Mankind would be something that WOULD-NOT weigh so much on their Mind.

It would have been Interesting to had seen what other Engineers would have Felt had Dr Shaw had got to MEET them.

Which will bring me to the Next Post.

@Chli

Certainly there are Many reasons for WHY would someone want to Create Life, i think in Context to the Engineers we have to maybe look at it from a different perspective than Natural Procreation.

But thats not to say that some of those Reasons cant apply, Certainly as far as a Intelligent Species who have the ability to make a Choice to Procreate or Not.

When it comes down to the Engineers i think the Question of WHY is something that was NOT clearly laid out, not as far as the Theatrical Movie.  And so we can only Speculate Widly if we only use that movie as a Source of Creation, there are Hints to possible Motives in Prometheus and Alien Covenant if we maybe look at David's Creation, or maybe Ponder WHY he also attempts to Create Life. But as far as the Engineers go there really is NO definite reason given.

The Earlier Drafts do give some possible hints, as far as Prometheus goes, which maybe sets us on a path to Ponder that these are a Species who LOST the ability to Procreate and so the Sacrificial Route was a way to Populate themselves to a degree.  However after Prometheus we had Ridley Scott suggest the Engineers could Create Life in other ways and the Sacrificial Ritual was just how they CHOOSE to do so.

The drafts for Alien Covenant we do have David drop a hint that we was created as Machines, which implies to Perform Certain Tasks so the Engineers would not have to.

If we take into account various Religion and Mythos then there are some things that Match as far as Creation but then there are some other things that Differ.

If we look at WHY would Weyland Create David then we could consider the following.

*Weyland is a Inventor a Innovator and Creating a Humanoid Synthetic who is Virtually Indistinguishable to ourselves but is also Superior, would be such a Accomplishment for Weyland to Serve his Ego.  As he would feel he has Surpassed what GOD had Created and so he would also leave a LEGACY.

*David was like the Son he never had and so its likely that in Part his creation was for Companionship too.

*David was also created to Serve Weyland, to Perform Tasks for his Master, and the Creation of more Synthetics would be used by Mankind to Serve and Perform Tasks so that we do-not have to anymore.

The thing that was Revealed with Alien Covenant is that David felt that he was NOT treated as Equal or how a Son should be treated by its Father.... and indeed most of Mankind.

But i do speculate if there was another Reason for his Creation, which is Longevity a Pseudo Immortality if you would.  If Peter Weyland could Create the Perfect Vessel for a Immortal Soul, and then he found a way to Transfer a Human Soul into  a AI then Peter Weyland would in Part have gained Immortality.   This is merely a Assumption/Idea by myself as Immortality was a Big Agenda for Peter Weyland.

So when looking at the Engineers there could be many reasons.... we cant rule out the because they COULD either, or indeed as David had said "devil makes work for idle hands" and so we have to consider as you mentioned with Building a Beautiful Garden that in part its a case of Creating Something to get around Boredom so you have something Nice to come out of the Work you put in.

@chli, good point about anarchy going unpunished in a disorderly universe.

Shaw asked the Engineer why he hated us so much. I don't think it's quite so simple as that. They likely do what they do out of a sense of duty and tradition rather than emotion. Maybe the writing was on the wall for humans when we started warring amongst ourselves and enslaving people. Would it really be a good idea to let aggressive monkeys loose in the cosmos, armed with high technology? The kind of creatures that would be likely to create aggressive thinking machines? Probably not. Maybe the Engineers had the right idea...

When the Engineer listened to David, there was a real look of pain on his face as he listened (shortly before David's rapid decapitation). What pitiful abomination have these humans created? It's not a new idea (see, for example, Dune, Neuromancer etc.), but it could be the case that the Engineer civilisation is totally and utterly averse to the creation of thinking machines. Maybe billions of years ago they fought and won wars against machines, and it's now completely taboo for them. Instead they live like monks.

I believe the Engineers lived in the same way for many millions of years, living a frugal, reflective, religious life. They see it as their duty to seed the universe with life, and to safeguard it against corrupted forms. If that means creating despicable agents of destruction to wipe out a planet or two, so be it!

I think we can rule out egg morphing since the route David has taken is the creation of his perfect queen (of Daniels). We saw in AC that David eventually managed to create xenomorph eggs by using Shaw’s body. It seems that he kept her alive but transformed. In “Advent” it seems that he plucks eggs from her body which is mixed with the pathogen (and perhaps neomorph DNA) eventually resulting in xeno-eggs (waiting for a host).

A female body can produce 12 eggs per year but perhaps David can speed up the process? Furthermore, half of the colonists are women (about 1000) . . . A human hybrid, as you propose BigDave is of course also possible. “She” would then produce the xeno-eggs directly (cesarean because of the size?) but still only 12 per year?

As for Holloway’s transmission of the “xeno-traits” to Shaw (her egg), I think it seems likely that Holloway’s body (his cells) is mutated, even his gametes.

Certainly, i would like to think the TRUE revelation would had been NOTHING like Dr Shaw's Faith. 

It seems reasonable that Shaw was right about the Engineers being creators and looked at them as god like, but her notion of faith and (what Weyland mentioned- the existence of a soul) were wrong. I agree the TRUTH was that she was pretty much off the mark, as she eventually said- "We were so wrong." Seems like a form of self importance although unintentional. That is a reason she could not be a sympathetic character. There could be a God, but don't expect it to be like what was taught over centuries.

Do you really have to have a purpose in order to create? Does there have to be another reason for creating other than enjoying it? Most people create babies because they enjoy doing it. They enjoy having sex and/or they enjoy having children. All (?) species reproduce only because it’s part of their nature, an instinct.

Humans can control their creation through birth control. In former times and in developing countries you might create children because you need more hands on the farm, or a king or nobleman needs an heir to take over land, properties and duties.

Sir Peter Weyland created synthetics in order to serve mankind just as Dr Elden Tyrell created replicants to do hard and dangerous jobs. Another purpose might have been to earn money . . .

But if we are to look upon the Engineers as gardeners of space, don’t they create just because they enjoy doing it? A real gardener might create beautiful parks because it’s his job (he gets paid) but if you cultivate your own garden (Il faut cultiver notre jardin :) ) you do it because you enjoy it. You enjoy the beauty of it. Your own Garden of Eden filled with trees, bushes, flowers, butterflies, birds and pets . . .

Concerning control, you cannot give children, pupils or pets full freedom to do whatever they like. That would result in anarchy and chaos. Concerning the tree of knowledge (or the Prometheus myth), to pass on knowledge isn’t dangerous in itself, it’s how it’s used . . .

The First Engineer

The Engineer first appeared in the 1997 final story arc of Stormwatch volume 1, ("Change or Die"—Stormwatch issues #48–50), by Warren Ellis and Tom Raney. He was part of a superpowered group called the Changers, led by The High, who wanted to change the world by removing the structure of society itself. There would be no more laws, no authoritarian structures, no crime, and no war. The Engineer's role in this plan was to seed nanotechnological oases across the planet. These oases would serve as "horns of plenty" providing every imaginable food, product, and tool anybody needed. This first Engineer died with the rest of the Changers in issue #50 when Stormwatch, under the command of an increasingly maverick Henry Bendix, destroyed their base with Hammerstrike Deep Sanction missiles consisting of biowar payload and tailored acid bombs.

A later Stormwatch arc, collected as the trade paperback A Finer World (Stormwatch vol. 2 issues #2–4) explored this Engineer's legacy: the Nevada Garden, his first and sole surviving nanotech oasis, was secretly commandeered by the United States military and used for weapon creation. Apollo and The Midnighter destroyed the site on behalf of Stormwatch, and brought most of its nanotech 'trees' into Stormwatch custody.

Sorry, @BigDave, my bad. I induced you in error.  WARREN Ellis and Tom Raney  are the creators of the wildstorm character known as The Engineer.

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