Comments (Page 482)

Indeed, this is something that i have mentioned before, i wonder why i never put it in the replies, or did i?

So yes the only way it could make a bit of sense, is if RS is going the whole, Matrix kind of angle and Mankind is not in the know to what is happening and the AI is pulling the strings. Which is something the Source i had kind of hinted a bit at, but then the Matrix stuff could been regarding the Engineers.

My Prometheus 2 daft i abandoned did touch upon the AI, and was leading up to the actual reason for David 8 was that Peter Weyland was attempting to Perfect Synthetics, and then attempting to upload his own Memories and Experiences to a AI and Transfer this to a Synthetic... Weyland would then have conquered Death.

This was to be called operation Rook, (Chess Piece) but the AI had flaws and a uploaded Human Mind in the form of a AI had glitches and Weylands AI would become unstable even showing symptoms like Hal from 2001 but much worse until, the AI Weyland Program would just go completely Mental and break down.

So Weyland was at a bust... and turned to Dr Shaws findings in the hope of meeting the Real Gods.

The idea i was toying for in a 3rd movie would be to introduce how a Corrupt Weyland AI would spread around and infect the AI of the company, but that in the End perhaps Davids AI would upload itself to the System.

My Prometheus sequel plans would have required 3 movies to actually cover all the bases, as far as Weylands Agenda, Davids, the Engineers, their creators and the Company Merger and who is running it.

I think the problem with Prometheus, more so with AC is the overall PLOT is what is given the upmost importance and the Characters for the most part were just their to push certain parts of the Plot.  I think AR even did a better job of giving us a bit more about the characters.

This is something they need to correct, but looking at where Alien Covenants Sequel lies between AC and Alien and more so if there is only ONE movie, with so much to cover i fear again Characters will be a bit lacking.

AC did attempt to give us a Alien as far as a build up to the Characters, we need to remember that ALIEN basically only had the Equivalent of say Daniels, Oram, Tennessee, Faris, Karine, Lope and Walter/David so these 7 cast were like the 7 in Alien to a degree, but in Alien they was more fleshed out, which AC attempted to do with the Slow Build up, and i think it needed longer and maybe the Prologue Last Supper helped but the movie had a limited run-time

Hallet, Ankor, Ledwood, Cole, Rosenthal, Ricks and Upworth were kind of just like how in Aliens we had Frost, Drake, Spunkmeyer, Ferro, Apone and Wierzbowski etc, some to somewhat a lesser degree so Ledwood, Ankor were basically your Wierzbowski with Rosenthal and Upworth being your Ferro a Hallet being your Spunkmeyer and a Cole being your Drake etc

I am going to go out on a Limb here...

And i think the next Installment, be it called Alien Awakening or what ever... i think for the most part this would be a movie that would be set in the year 2112-2115, it logically has to be for a number of reasons.

1) David appears to be off to Origae-6 in the Covenant Ship, which will take 7.5 years to arrive there and so we are talking about 2112.

2) David appears to be going there for a reason, why would he need to go there, if all he wants to do is create Thousands of Eggs from the Crew, he could do this on the Ship, so why not go back to Planet 4 and do this and give the company some excuse that he has discovered Paradise. And the Colonist are setting up home?  David could turn up at Origae-6 and then One by One try and awaken Colonist and Sedate them and take them down to then be experimented on to create his Eggs (less risky than on the Ship).

3) RS has pondered what kind of World would David create, and regarding becoming a Ruler of, i am sure David on Origae-6 with a Army of Xenomorphs would be pretty lame.... David did also say to Daniels, if we are kind it would be a kind world... when she asked him about what kind of a world can they now build.

4) The movie has to have Human Characters, i doubt we will see David interacting on the Covenant all nice as pie with the crew on their way to Origae-6 for a lot of the movie, and also we have Daniels who knows who David is, and Tennessee would be suspicious if Daniels just happens to bit the dust...   So chances are a Colony will be set up on Origae-6 but how they deal with Daniels and Tennessee  is interesting as they have written themselves into a corner.

5) The Covenant mission (i have not read the Prequel novel) but clues in the movie and the Viral stuff, appear to suggest that Origae-6 is a Earth like World that is presently not inhabited by Humans.

6) RS has said and hinted that they will go to Origae-6 (David and the Covenant) but that there would be 3-4 other parties involved, and David has informed the company about his experiments and they would know where he is going, so we can assume a Military/Well Prepared Ship is on the way... unless the writing is poor and we get Dumber than Dumb Company Ship Crew in the Know.... Unless the company sends a Human Ship purely as Bait, Lambs to the Slaughter, but would they not expect David would use the Colonist for this?

7) One of the incoming parties will be the Engineers, who arrive at Planet 4 and discover the devastation that has happened,  do these Engineers know of the Black Goo, where it came from? How can they be sure that David was behind it, as they would uncover dead Humans no doubt, do they know of Mankind on Earth?, are they aware of the LV-223 Outpost and Mission to destroy us?, did they assume this went ahead? surely if not the would (provided they are aware of the original intention 2000 years ago) surely want to stop us now.

But how do they know/find out David caused all this?  We can safely assume Engineer Ships can Travel Faster than Human ones (why have Maps to other Galaxies) and so they cant arrive hot on the heels of the Covenant that has not long departed... as they would intercept this with ease.

So when considering all of this, it paints a Picture.

The Engineers must arrive at the very least long after the Covenant has left and even after the Covenant has arrived on Origae-6, they must find Walter and somehow from him or other clues found in the wreckage of the Covenant Lander, that David is off to Origae-6 and how to find the location.  Otherwise we are talking massive Coincidences again... more so if they go the route that Origae-6 has Engineers (it cant do) but it could have done, or other Humanoids seeded by them but this would be a massive Coincidence again.

I would Safely Assume, that David takes the Covenant to Origae-6 he repairs himself (uses Walter Parts) or builds a Walter and Transfers his AI into it, and he does this so he can Pass Off as Walter, and have the other Colonist not be aware of the events of Alien Covenant.  He would have to cook a Elaborate Excuse for what happened to the Fallen Crew.

I would assume that piece by piece David helps them to establish a Colony, piece by piece, maybe he even changes his mind about using the Xenomorph?  I think we will either see these events, or arrive in a aftermath...  but along this path, David will try and establish himself as a Leader and Superior to the Humans, and i think we could see some Rebellion by them as some fail to take David as Leader/King.

Maybe David then introduces kinds of Punishments, so he can subjugate the colonist? or maybe not?

I feel at some point the Colonist, would maybe find out about what David has done or get suspicious and David then uses the Xenomorphs?  Or maybe he plans this but he has to allow for a Colony to be set up first.. so he is buying his time?

Maybe i feel David could have some place on Origae-6 a Cave or someplace he will indeed had been subjecting some Colonist to his experiments and some Colonist discover this place?

We will see maybe 1-2 Company Ships arrive, and i would wonder does all these things i suggest happen in real time? or would they been events that have past, and the Company Ships arrive at a aftermath, just as the few remaining Colonist are fighting for their Lives, the Company Ships land...  So this could get a bit ALIENS all over again.... but then prior events could be a bit ALIEN 3 again.

I would assume we get some Flash Backs where David explains certain things and events...

I would assume the movie would go back and forth a few times maybe showing when the Engineers turn up at Planet 4? discover what happened and find out WHO DID IT and WHERE THEY ARE but certainly i feel the Engineers turn up on Origae-6 towards the End...  which would lead us to the Next Movie.

Where i assume the Engineers and Davids Experiments head towards LV-223.  Or David and his creations dispatch the Engineers and he steals their Ship and heads to LV-223 which would set up the 3rd Movie.

THIS.. is what i have read into the clues so far, and its certainly the kind of route i would take.. HOWEVER.. The Question is what route are they taking now?  And we also have to take into account when RS mentioned Alien Awakening he was pretty excited about the sequels and even suggesting the Franchise has to be about HIM (Xenomorph).

The Backlash for Alien  Covenant could indeed have him and FOX reconsider what plans they had at the time of Alien Covenants Release.

Alien Awakening (which was actually Blomkamps Alien 5 title) will most likely be the next movie, RS even let slip that the next movie would be Alien Awakening, and that the order would be Alien Covenant, Alien Awakening and a 3rd movie.

This puts Alien Awakening at a point after Alien Covenant, if they are sticking to this Name, and RS now intends to cut the Xeno down or out, they would be in for some trouble because Awakening would be to do with the Xenomorph, we assume... if its about Awakening as in something else, AI or Engineers then it could wind some fans up.

But they need to understand the ALIEN Prefix is just to suggest the movie ties in with the Franchise, for example ALIEN Covenant was never about Xenomorphs making a Pact/Agreement with anyone.  In fact the Title does not seem to even suggest any Covenant had been made at all, aside from a Pact between David and Shaw that David broke... which the movie only shows us the aftermath, and The Crossing Prologue shows us a Covenant had been made between them.

Sadly i dont think we will ever see what happened between Prometheus and Alien Covenant as far as Dr Shaw and the Engineers and David, clues in AC and the extras do suggest not all the Engineers died after Davids Bombardment.  But we wont see this explored....   We did hold up hope that the AC Prequel novel would cover this... but the AC Prequel just covers a bit about the Yutani Company, and the Preparations for the Covenant Mission and how someone is trying to sabotage it..  But i have yet to read this...  but while its a prequel to Alien Covenant, its only as far as the Covenant Mission and has nothing to do with Aliens (as far as i am aware).

It would be nice to have a Book that explores the events prior to AC surrounded Dr Shaw etc, but i dont think we would see such a thing, But i would be Happy to work on a 10pg plus Synopsis for someone to evolve into a Story ;)   I was going to do so, but i never bothered as i thought the ADF Prequel would cover it, but alas it never and at this point i have had some problems that limited my ability to commit to such things.

Likewise LV-223 and the Outbreak, i have a good theory on this, and indeed i am sure many would like to know what was the Purpose of this place, and what went down.. My Prometheus 2 i abandoned did begin to cover this.   I am sure we would love to know what happened, but again i am not sure we would find out about this.

HOWEVER... at present.. we can assume that LV-223 is still there, and we have to ask why the Company has never been back after Aliens or indeed after Prometheus, and so surely the reason that this place must have NOTHING to be gained... has to be covered in the next TWO movies.

"....because most of Mankind in the Alien Franchise were completely oblivious to who the Engineers are, and most of the stuff Prometheus and Alien Covenant opened up."

I think most of this can be explained by the AI controlling what humans know. Returning false positives and faulty info from planet surveys. Basically lying to humans to protect them.

Besides, 95% of humans want to sit in a hot tub, drinking beer and eating pizza.

Pretend your dog is human and you are AI.............Your dog is running around crapping everywhere, getting in fights, being lazy..sleeping all day...bark, bark, BARK!....THIS is what AI must think of humans?

@drucea

Interesting point regarding how the Suit Dies... i have made this point a number of times over the years, looking at the Engineers Suits, they appear to be a suit that has bonded with their bodies... so its not like when we put on a Snake/Crocodile Skin Coat and Bottoms, or like a Fur Coat.

It would be like if we had a Fur Coat that when you put it on it would actually attach to you and become part of you, just like it was to the Animal it was removed from.

If we take the Skin of a Snake, or even look at if you cut away your own skin from your body and left it to dry out, then its appearance is very different.

Also if we consider the Engineers Suits have a like Leather/Rubber look to them, more like the Flesh of a Dolphin or Shark.   Or almost like the texture of a Cactus.

If you look at a long dead Shark Skin or Cactus then the color changes to a more light brown kind of Space Jockey color.  And so indeed i also think their Suits become part of them, and they have a Organic Atheistic to them, maybe like a Cactus Flesh or Whale/Dolphin/Shark.

And so when they are dead, these to deteriorate and change texture and color.  I feel this is what the Space Jockey suit has become.

@Monsterzero

Indeed AC also showed a different effect too, why did those Engineers not break down or become Fifield Engineers?

I think there was a lot of clues with regards to Prometheus which lead me down to TWO Explanations for the Space Jockey. The Chest Busted Cryo-sleep Pods also apply in Prometheus.

1) Worms from the past had been infected to become Hammerpedes (Worms + Black Goo had been on LV-223 way prior to Prometheus) and thus a Hammerpede had infected the Space Jockey/Engineers.  Hammerpedes Evolving from Worms who are Hermaphrodites and Egg Layers.  Maybe the Hammerpede went down Milburns Throat to implant a Egg/Embryo?   My Prometheus 2 Re-write was to show this.

2) The Black Goo as far as the stuff inside the Glass Vials, are Nano-Parasitic Worm like Organisms, a large collection of these, much like a large collection of Sperm Cells (Semen) appear as a Goo, but they are just Millions of tiny Cells/Organisms.    These Nano-Parasitic Worms passed from Holloway to Dr Shaw and either

a) Fertilized/Mutated her Egg Cell (likely)

b) Used her Womb to Gestate

Thus these Nano-Parasites could have infected a Space Jockey/Engineers and Incubated inside and Evolved into either Face Hugger type Chest Busters (like the Trilobite) or they evolved into actual Chest Buster like Organisms  (Trilobite was a infection of these Worms with a Egg Cell).

I thought that one of these was the most likely candidates for the Space Jockey Incident.... BUT ALAS, along came Alien Covenant!

Onto the Space Jockey, there has been a share of people disappointed about the SJ being a Space Suit, but this is something RS had considered it has a long long time ago, RS has even a long time before Prometheus, explained what the Space Jockey was and the Event...  He even mentioned it again at the time of Prometheus and even added a little to it after Prometheus..  This being the Ship did not Crash, it had intended to land on LV-426 and something in the Cargo Hold Evolved.

The answers were staring us in the Face all along too.

Behold HR Gigers Space Jockey Concept in all its Majesty.

Note the Bubble around the Head, some kind of Glass? some kind of Barrier? But ok the Face looks like a Skull Face a little, but the Head has Cables/Pipes and Wires, only the Face and Rib-cage look like a Skeleton, the Hose looks Synthetic/Mechanical, the Arms do not  look like a Skeleton, especially if you study anatomy of Skeletons.

We only need to look at HR Gigers Mural.

To notice the suit (not so much helmet) is similar to the Space Jockey Suit. The helmet likewise apart from a few differences.

Then we need to cast our eyes at the Face Hugger concepts.

To notice the suit is the same as that in the Mural, and is similar to the Space Jockey... and Behold, the Bald Humanoid....  It would appear maybe our Engineers inspirations came from HR Gigers Concepts after all.

There is a lot to cover in this subject but first i will cover the "keep it a Mystery"

Here is the whole deal with why it was not to be.....  the Franchise after RS had not taken the Helm had evolved into something that maybe was not quite what RS would have done, had he taken control and made Alien 2, Alien 3 etc.   He lost creative control of how the Franchise Evolved.   The Beast had also been done over and over, included the Alien vs Predators and Comics, Books, and Games.

But none of the movies ever answered Big Questions.

*Who was the Space Jockey?

*Why did he have that Cargo?

*What was the purpose of the Cargo? (this one kind of covered)

*Where was he going?

*Where did those Eggs come from?

We also have the Question, What happened? But this really was quite straight forwards, The Space Jockey got infected with his Cargo.. more than likely..

From those Questions which no other movies answered, we could evolve them to be asking.

*What was the Space Jockey Race and Agenda/Purpose

*Where did the Xenomorph come from? (was it found or created).

so from these unanswered Questions, there was something to cover that had never been answered before.

Ridley Scott lost input on the Franchise after Alien and you bet you can be sure it does get to him a bit regarding how the Sequels had been explored compared to his ideas, he had no input and cant change them unless he attempted to Re-boot all ALIEN sequels..  HOWEVER... Ridley Scott could still have his own INPUT on HOW the Xenomorph Came to be and WHY the Space Jockey had those Eggs as well as explore who the Space Jockey Race was... which is something that had never been covered on screen.

Ridley Scott would surely know, that if he did not Answer those Questions, and if he went on to make a Alien R Sequel and intend to leave the Whole Xenomorph Origins and who the Space Jockey was as a MYSTERY  then RS would know that down the line, once the Xenomorph has been cooked, that THIS MYSTERY is something FOX could Cash in on, to bring some life back to the Franchise.

This could be done in many years time, even 10 years from now... when RS would maybe be too old to work on the project or (hopefully not for a long time) when RS has passed on, and so eventually you can bet that FOX would have Cashed in on that MYSTERY to make $$$$ out of a Drained Franchise.

so RS would have rather had Answered these Questions in a way that pleases him, rather than leave it for someone to do so at a time when he is long gone, or to old to be able to do so.

THIS^^^ is the very Reason RS was keen to work on the Project, Alien was one of his Babies, he lost creative input in how the Franchise Evolved, and so he was not going to pass up the Chance to Cover the Orgins of the Xenomorph and who the Space Jockey was.

With regards to the Thousands of Eggs, maybe its more than Coincidence the Covenant Ship has Thousands of Colonist?  Again another Spoon Fed, easy to Guess Plot.

David has TWO Face Huggers, unless he can experiment on one and splice its DNA with the Human/Animal Embryos, or he has or gains some Black Goo, then we could be looking at how do these TWO Face Huggers lead to Thousands of Eggs?

Does RS explore the Egg Morph Method that was in Alien that was removed apart from the DC?  Or does he go the route that one of these (Face Huggers leads to a Queen?)  I think this is something they would have to answer in the next TWO movies.

Regarding the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph, and the Question you pose....  its best not we bring up the WALTER-MORPH LOL as its a bit of a Sore Spot for other Sites.

But indeed it had been speculated on here, and Chris  was given some information about how David would use Synthetic Material to Forge the Classic Xenomorph, but FOX requested Chris to remove this information.

In a Spoon Fed, kind of you can see this coming a Mile Away (like the David is Walter Twist) It would appear that the Xenomorph gains its Mechanical Traits from a Synthetic could be something that could be explored.  I know when this was theorized before on here, it did not settle well with a number of Fans....  But i bet it cant be as bitter pill to swallow as David Created the Xenomorph basically from scratch, never mind the new fully formed Chest Buster.

I had wondered and speculated once RS mentioned prior to AC that Fassbender would be back to play TWO Roles... David and a Doppelganger, that the term Doppelganger has to be more than just another David, or a David 9 unless their was significant changes...  This got me to think about how FOX use a lot of unused ideas and concepts from previous movies in the Franchise that was never used on-screen.

And it made me think of the Fire and Stone Comics, where Elden was a Synthetic Construct, basically Part Synthetic, Part Organic and so i felt if Fassbender played a updated model that was a Synthetic Construct this would indeed play a very Spoon Fed way to have the Xenomorph come from a Synthetic Construct.  You see in Fire and Stone, Elden was infected with the Black Goo and so it could infect a Synthetic Construct but not a Synthetic... and so i thought well surely a Face Hugger may be able to infect a Synthetic Construct and Produce a Bio-Mechanical Off-Spring.

Looking at the Walter Viral Marketing, some of his construction did appear to be some what Organic, like the Brain for instance.  So maybe indeed the WALTER-MORPH could be something they explore.

A key thing to remember is RS comments prior to AC,  this was the movie would address, WHY and WHO would Create such a Horrific Beast, it Felt like a Weapon and Bio-Mechnoid and AC would begin to answer this.

After AC, RS had mentioned that the Xenomorph we see in Alien is not-quite there yet, it nearly is but it has some evolution to go....  Thus this implies that the Not-So Bio-Mechanical Alien Covenant Xenomorph will at some point gain its more Mechanical Atheistic at some point in the next TWO movies.

"Prometheus BD has additional materials and one of them has a mail with report what Weyland already know about LV-426 and Derelict before the Prometheus mission."

Indeed, and the Wayland-Industries Viral site that gave us a History or the company also shows that the company had knowledge of the System too, it think as far as the year 2034? But dont quote me and the  Wayland-Industries Viral site has been replaced, it appears FOX/RS are Re-writing the History books in a number of ways as the Viral Site gave us a time-line of the Evolution of David models, it now appears they are going with David 8 actually being David the First!  And thus why the Marketing Site for Prometheus has been replaced.

So the same goes with any other marketing, as you see its a game of Make-it-up and Change as we go along, and who knows how many changes and U-Turns we get by the time they are finished... so the BD material has to be considered NON-CANON

It appears that sadly for some, just as our Space Jockey was a Humanoid 7.5ft tall Race (supposed to be 12-15ft) and not no Skeletal Remains of a 15ft plus giant Elephantine Alien Race.... so we must now accept David created the Xenomorphs, which means as of now... 18 years prior to Alien... there is NO Derelict on LV-426

Thats a good point, which shows the writing for Alien Covenant was flawed, in many ways...I may consider taking Alien Covenant and doing a Re-write myself, i did start with the same with Prometheus but abandoned it however...

So we do need to look at the events from Alien Covenant to Alien, we have about (maximum) 18 years before we get to Alien, if David created the Xenomorph so lets say if Dr Shaw decided to leave David in Two Pieces at the End of Prometheus or even just recovered his head and tossed it into the Flames of some of the Prometheus Wreckage... then we would not have no Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict?

If indeed David is the creator, so here is something else to consider... David must be able to increase the number of Eggs to Thousands and for them to get onto a Engineer Ship, all within 17-18 years, with just TWO Face Hugger Embryos.

It appears David will be going to Origae-6 which will take 7.5 years and so by the time David arrives at Origae-6 if we assume he uses the Covenant, then we only had a Period of 10 years for Thousands of his Creations to be ready in Egg Form and end up on LV-426 which we can safely assume is no where near Origae-6

We can assume the Covenant Ship has Laboratories, Med Bays etc, and so maybe one way could be if David was to Tinker and Experiment with one Embryo to then extracts its DNA and Splice it with the Human (we assume) Embryos?  But having some Black Goo would make this Task easier, maybe he snuck some on the ship with him?  But its a bit of a stretch, but then so was him having time to make himself look like Walter and Obtain those Face Hugger Embryos.  I am sure while he was in his Workshop it would have taken but a minute longer maybe less to get a Black Goo Glass Vial.

But then what is stopping David from going to Planet 4 again to pick up some more Black Goo and/or Eggs/Embryos?

The only other option would be one of...

A) The Xenomorph Procreation, does his creations Egg Morph, or does one become a Queen?

B) The Engineers arrive and take Davids few Creations to LV-223 where they begin to Mass Produce them?

Well it was interesting to see Ridley Scotts comments,  after Prometheus he said there would be a sequel, this soon changed to maybe needing TWO... 

Then we get to AC and RS informs us he intends to do a new Trilogy and it appears he meant this was Alien Covenant and TWO sequels before we get to the Back Door of ALIEN, and RS even a number of times confirmed it would be TWO more movies before we connect to Alien.

The concern for me was when he said he could do another 6 movies and he wanted to take this into a War of the Worlds kind of Scenario.....   I feel this would be hard to do unless every aspect of Production and Casting and Shooting was Near Perfect.... especially if the Xenomorph plays a role in each one as how can we have 6 more Xenomorph movies without the Beast Getting Cooked.

However... Prometheus opened up the Universe, the back ground to the other movies we often overlook because we associate them with Xenomorphs and Ripley, also open up the Franchise. You only need to look at Call from Alien Resurrection to know there is a bit of History on Earth etc with Synthetic Rebellions and Synthetics creating Synthetics and a host of Philosophical Questions, and who knows if these are things that Ridley Scott had taken on board when working on Prometheus, because this touched upon Creation, Sub-Creation Synthetic Rebellion and Synthetic Sub Creating (AC), Call was Religious yet she was a Synthetic with no Soul.... certainly see a bit of Dr Shaw with her.

So yes the ALIEN Franchise has the Potential to expand many movies, we have Weylands History, and Agenda, we have a History of the Synthetics and Flaws and Problems they caused, we have the Rivalry and then Merger of Weyland and Yutani Companies...   Never mind the Engineers Plot as Creators of Mankind etc and how this opens up the Franchise to explore and wonder how many other Worlds have been seeded with Intelligent life, who created the Engineers, where does the Sacrificial Goo and Black Goo come from.. Never mind the other Creations that could come from this... which are not limited to Davids experiments and what the Engineers had been doing on LV-223.

So yes another 6 Movies, potential War of the Worlds... YES.. i could see this, but these have to explore some of the other things as i put in the previous Paragraph and not the Xenomorph... not for 6 movies.

The Problem is contradictions and Plot Holes as far as the Alien Franchise, and so Ridley Scotts 6 movie Plan could come unstuck... because most of Mankind in the Alien Franchise were completely oblivious to who the Engineers are, and most of the stuff Prometheus and Alien Covenant opened up.

UNLESS......

Ridley Scotts Plans are a Re-boot where his Prequels and Alien are the RS Canon and allows him to create a Alternative Story set after Alien, in effect maybe removing Aliens as Canon, just as Blomkamps Alien 5 would have done with Alien 3 and Alien R.

Thats the only way that makes sense to me.....  as to keep all those as Canon, and then bring in another 6 movies could well lead to some conflicts.

I think it depends what you mean by a Shot in the Head and Light in the Mind?   Maybe i just could not quite understand how the OT was laid out to lead to one of these, but thats no fault of yours.

I assume you was asking is the direction we have taken with the Franchise a Enlightening Prospect for the Franchise or has the direction shot itself in the Foot so to speak.

If this is correct then i would have to say i feel the Franchise with Alien Covenant has Shot itself in the Head, but its not all bad, it can be resurrected, just the approach taken does limit the way the Engineers could have been explored compared to if AC Plot had been tackled differently and also by now going the path of a more direct set of prequels leading us to WHO, HOW, WHEN and WHY the Xenomorph was created, which AC kind of answered, all thats needed is to Set up how Davids Creations end up on the Derelict.

which kind of limits the avenues this can be explored, but now they have gone this PATH they cant abandon it.

Some Fans wanted the Space Jockey to be kept a Mystery... Sorry this looks unlikely.

Some Fans wanted the Space Jockey to be a Skeleton of a Large Alien Race, Sorry this wont happen.

Some Fans are now hoping that the Xenomorph will not be Davids Creation, again sorry this wont happen.

The only kind of saving Grace now is IMO and kind of the Plot i was going to start to touch upon in my Prometheus 2, and mainly answer in P3, was to have the Engineers merely be just as David is and a Servant Species to some higher, yet still Humanoid Race who come back and find their Servant Race/Crop has been decimated and they are off to find out by whom....  or similar and so reveal the Space Jockey as a 12ft Tall Race (still a Space Suit) who then discover Davids Creations and then decide to take them to LV-223 to Evolve them.

This explains why the Davids Creation, is a bit different and ends up on the Derelict in the LV-223/426 system, it introduces a Race of Taller beings above the Engineers who can be portrayed as more sinister and awe inspiring.

As much as I dislike Prometheus, I do like to talk about it and see other members shed light on it (AC and the franchise as well), so I have a good time here. Often I enjoy everything here more than the movies themselves.

chli Everything is relative except for what I stated. Kane had screen-time, yes, but it wasn't character development it was plot driven. After watching the film several times the only thing I know about the character of Kane is that he was Dallas' right-hand or something, he stared into the egg, and gave birth to the Alien. I feel most fans are looking at the originals with rose-tinted glasses because the characters weren't all that great and they made just as many dumb decisions but everyone looks past all that because they love the film, I do as well but objectively speaking the only interesting character was Ash, Ripley, and maybe Parker. Aliens had 16 characters and most of them hardly had any development before being killed off. 

I do agree it's more than simply throwing a monster in there but the way Covenant did it wasn't any different from most Alien films aside from the focus on A.I.. Everyone likes to praise Alien on how Lovecraftian it is but when we get a real Lovecraftian horror tale everyone freaks out because humans aren't the focus, which is contradicting.

I don't think knowing will ruin anything other than the people that end up not liking whatever the explanation is.  I think it would be more intriguing to know, then you can expand more on the when and why.  You can only speculate on these things for so long before you get the real answer.  You know that once the space jockey identity is revealed, that will give this forum another year(s) worth of new material to speculate about and come up with more fanfiction, polls, etc. 

If you don't have good actors playing interesting characters, you won't have a good movie. And it's not just to throw in a monster in a movie, it's what you do with it that counts.

Lawrence of Arabia

Well, everything is relative (except the speed of light), but I would say that Kane had more screen time in comparison to Ledward. He was seen now and again before their picnic to the Derelict, and their excursion was quite prolonged. You could hear his voice (which is special) over the com.radio. After his visit in the cargo hold and the face hug, he was seen in med lab and also after the facehugger had implanted the embryo and he woke up. Then there was some more dialogue and then the kitchen scene . . .

But I think one key thing is that they were only 7 in Alien (15 in AC) which makes it easier to get to know them better. All (except Weaver) were skilled actors so Scott could focus on the visionary parts of the movie. The other actors were actually afraid that this rookie would ruin the show, but she didn’t. Besides this, I would say that the characters were more special and interesting in all the other films. McBride was something of a character actor, but not close to, say, Paxton or Glover.

...emphasize (no edits allowed here, it seems).

And, please let me enphaze it, H.P.L's COLOUR (the spelling fits the bill) is far more scaring than the famous and adored bug you guys are fighting for.

 Where does the mechanical aspect of the xenomorph come from?

Fair point. Back in the late '70s, I doubt RS or anyone else thought much beyond Alien. Now the expectation is to make it all tie together after 6 movies.

@Lawrence of Arabia

Perfect!

Cosmic horrors, and humans just being a small part of the everlasting time (?) running.

Howard Philips Lovecraft... Maybe people should be exposed to hardcore Sci-Fi - for there's too much whining about this and that character.

Should we give them COLOUR OUT OF SPACE just for them to mourn Nahum Gardner (and family) and bitch about the director/screenwriter/actor?

I have one thing to say: TWIN PEAKS (1990/1) was ruined after we knew who killed Laura Palmer - at least, audience numbers said so.

I love David Lynch and I know he was against letting people know the murderer's identity - WHO didn't matter, and as soon as it was public knowledge, all the fun was lost, back then.

But I don't think it's the same here - or it might just be? Let's check it in our hearts.

TWIN PEAKS 2017: Out of the blue, we had TWIN PEAKS 2017, and it entaintained loads of people, although everybody knew who killed Laura Palmer.

My opinion: it takes courage to face and expose all the "mystery" some want to keep "secret" - TWIN PEAKS again - and, yet, you have a significant part of the audience asking for more. A face, a motive... what, where and when...

Or just accepting a different movie from what we had expected at first.

I feel like a lot of the fans misinterpret the character roles of the Alien films. Every Alien film had a cast of characters we barely got to know until further re-watches familiarized us with them. Yes, they are there for us to relate to the situation and it helps that they are likable but the real story is of the creature and the cosmic horror that follows. That's why we watch these films, right? For the Lovecraftian horror and spectacle, not for a lovable cast of rascals? I'm not saying the A.I. element is more important when it should be the same but, as Ripley (Human) was the protagonist of the originals, David is the main attraction this go around so it makes sense that they want to delve more into those elements like they did with the former. Prometheus was always a marriage between Blade Runner and Alien so it makes sense the narrative direction Ridley is taking.  I love the Xenomorph just as much as any Alien fan but we can only make so many films about being chased down corridors until it gets cooked and I think that is where Ridley is coming from with his statement of the beast almost running out. You need a new hook, something different to shake things up and take the heat off the beast so it can uncook so when we do get a Xeno-centric film it will be a breath of fresh air. It also doesn't help that when he tried to reinvent the creature people freaked cuz it wasn't traditional or what they expected or that it was sidelined somehow despite the beast being prominent throughout the film (the Neomorph is a Xenomorph without armor). I think everyone just needs to take a chill pill and be glad that the Alien franchise is still kicking and that the man who created the universe is trying to make fans happy while trying to evolve it beyond simply rehashing.

@BigDave, thanks again. Intriguing, as usual.

And as you are someone (among other people, of course) who writes what I actually read here, may I ask (and, please, make up your mind): A Shot in the Head or A Light in the Mind?

It would be interesting to find this out....   a lot of Evolution has happened from the Origins.

Starting with Star-Beast about a Long Lost Ancient Alien Culture/Civilization who required Sacrificial Hosts to procreate their Species.  This Race had died off, but in one of their Pyramids remained the Spore/Egg part of their Life-cycle that a Giant Alien Race had stumbled across and fell victim to, but they managed to set off a Warning about this  Place so others would stay away..  But a Human ship interprets this as a SOS and investigates and falls Foul to the Same Star-Beast Organism. Thus the ALIEN was a Ancient and somewhat civilized Race, who had died out or left this place, but left behind there YOUNG, the Spores/Eggs that would remain Dormant until Hosts would come by so then the Organism can begin its Life-Cycle again.

This Evolved to ALIEN were these Spores are now Eggs, and the Giant Alien beings who fell foul to the Organism, was a Pilot Carrying those Eggs on his Ship.  Ridley Scott latter suggesting it was a kind of Bomber and carrying Bio-Weapons.  Thus the Eggs were a Bio-logical Warfare used by the Space Jockey Race, but we was never told WHY, and HOW the Eggs came to be... was they found.. like in Star-beast? or was they created by this Race.   What we do see is via HR Gigers Aesthetic  that the Derelict Crafts Aesthetic is similar to the Xenomorphs, the Construction appeared to be similar to the Xenomorph Hives.  Both Part Machine and Part Organic...  The Pilot was less so connected, but still somewhat Bio-Mechanical.

HR Giger had designed the Mural, and a number of Face Hugger Concepts, that Showed Humanoid's in Space Suits appeared to be Sacrificing themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph, his Mural is Ambiguous but does seem to suggest a connection between the Derelict Space Ship, the Xenomorph and those Eggs as far as DNA/Atheistic.   It was HR Gigers intention to have these Murals placed in the Egg Silo/Cargo Hold, where the Walls of the Egg Silo/Cargo Hold had like as he put it Pregnant Bio-Mechanical Bellies that would Produce the Eggs.   HR Giger also suggested the Derelict Ships were Grown.

Then we get to Prometheus, where we have the Engineers as the Space Jockeys, and indeed we see there Derelict related Ships (Juggernauts) Carry a Bio-Weapon which is stored in Urn like Vases, these contain a Black Goo Pathogen, that when it comes into contact with Life (depending how) it mutates Lifeforms into something that carries over Xenomorph DNA.    We are shown via a series of Events with a Black Goo infection that Dr Shaw births the Trilobite, in effect a Xenomorph/Human Hybrid Face Hugger, which latter leads to the Deacon Chest Buster, which is similar to what we see in the Prometheus Mural.   This was all to show us these Space Jockey/Engineers had conducted Experiments with the Black Goo that are related to the Xenomorph in some Capacity...  Ridley Scott and Damien Lindeloff both then suggesting the Black-Goo is a Ancestor to the Xenomorph, well the Deacon is.

Prometheus was not very clear in how the Black Goo connects,  as there was another Substance that was used to Sacrifice a Engineer which implies via this Mankind Eventually Evolved.  Yet mankind has no Xenomorph Traits, not like how the Black Goo in the Urns/Vases worked.

But alas... Jon Spaights Alien Engineers, draft which Prometheus was based off, had the answers, instead of Sacrificial Goo, we had Nano-Scarabs that consumed a Engineer, each Nano-Scarab storing the Engineers DNA and one of these Bites a Early Primate and this Primate Evolves into a Hybrid, having Engineer DNA injected into it which is implied what leads to Mankind...  Primate + Engineer DNA via Scarabs = Humans.

The Alien Engineers draft also had Urns, these were knocked over by Fifield and Scarabs escaped and attacked Fifield, one gets into his Helmet and Bites him, and we see Fifield Transforms into a Hybrid Xeno/Human with Acid Blood, he does not break down or be consumed like the Sacrificial Engineer, he is evolved like the Primate...ONLY the DNA appears to be connected to the Xenomorphs.

Thus its via Alien Engineers we can assume the Deacon Mural was a Organism, that was Sacrificed so its DNA could be used to infect Organisms and be used to experiment with and create Xenomorph related Organisms.

Alien Covenant kind of expands on this, where the Black Goo is used to infect the Environment and eventually leads to the Spores (Neomorphs) David then experimented with these and various other lifeforms and the Black Goo to create a all manner of Xeno/DNA related Organisms.

It thus appears to make more sense that the SACRIFICIAL GOO is  Creation Tool that allows for Splicing of Genetic Material/DNA of One Organism with another.  HOWEVER... they had changed things and tried to explain the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo as ONE substance, and even explained to a degree how it would work, but in a way that contradicts what Prometheus shows... especially the concept works.

Alien Covenant even further making things a bit Cloudy... in how the Bombardment Scene we see the Black Goo affected the Engineers different to what we saw in Prometheus.

So who knows where the Black Goo now comes from?

My Conclusion was and is, that it is the result of exposing the Deacon in the Mural to the Sacrificial Substance, and storing the resulting Pathogen in those Urns... which leaves it open that the Deacon was a Organism the Engineers had encountered and never created, or that it was a Evolution of some Organism/Parasite related to the Deacon and Xenomorph.

Its a Question now... is this the path they will go?  will we ever even know where the Black Goo came from, and what the Mural and Fresco in Prometheus meant?

"Also, before Hurt (Kane) gave birth to the alien, you had gotten to know him. He was a character that you felt for."

Explain where in the original did they flesh Kane out? He was the red shirt of that film and they did not give him any screen time aside from occasional camera pans. They barely fleshed out any characters in the original aside from Parker and his bonus situation and Lambert's mood swings. I cold argue A:C followed n the same Lovecraftian spirit, where the human characterizations were minimal and superfluous to the cosmic horror. A:C had decent actors, Waterson, Crudup, and McBride, but did consist in a lot of new talent to which I guess was suppose to help their careers like the original did for Weaver but nonetheless did a great job. Both Carmen Ejogo and Amy Seimetz did excellent performances as well as the guy who played Ledward.

Chli, totally agree, even Alien 4 had better character development than AC. There was virtually none. Prometheus and AC could have been incredible in so many ways and in the end they are just such mediocre movies. 

Yea Drucea that would have been cool and fresh with the Deacon vs Xenomorph

Well, if there's mystery we want, then I guess Scott has already ruined it. In Prometheus we learned that the space jockey wasn't a skeleton or a fossil - it was a space suit and a helmet (looking like a fossil). And in Alien: Covenant we learned that David created the xenomorph. What mystery is left to leave out or reveal? Who's in the pilot chair? Well, if it isn't an engineer you'd have to search for him in the left leg or so of the space suit (because of the size). :)

After the release of Prometheus Ridley Scott had said although the movie could kind of be seen as a Stand Alone Movie, it Logically was left open to lean towards it requiring a sequel.  RS had said that actually it could become more than one Sequel, he also stated that Prometheus left it open with what it was showing and that on One Hand it could lead to Alien, but then the other ending could lead to something New a New Direction.

And that you could not leave the Cliff-hanger of Dr Shaw and David leaving LV-223, you had to go to where they was heading.  And so a sequel would steer further away from Alien.

He latter added that THEY (Shaw and David) would be off to the Engineers Homeworld, and that they will find these beings, but these beings are not GOD's (not in the traditional sense) and they are far from Benevolent. However David will be bringing Hell with him.

Ridley Scott also mentioned at this time, he Did-Not want to meet GOD in the first movie, this was in reference to the removal of the Elder Engineers.  He also referred to the Engineers as Fallen Angels.

Not a lot during the next few years came about regarding P2 only that now and again RS has said they are planning to make a sequel and it would follow David and Shaw as they are off to Paradise, he also now and again asked the Question what is Paradise, and how maybe Paradise could be a very dark concoction of a place.

We had Rumors P2 was off, then on again and then that Jack Paglen was approached to work on a Draft, we then had RS confirm a number of drafts had been worked on, and its making good progress.  Then it was announced that Micheal Green would come in and work on the drafts by Paglen.

Then it all went a bit quite, at a time when Alien 5 by Blomkamp was announced as a idea by Niel Blomkamp while he was working on Chappy....  It then came out that P2 looked unlikely as they appeared to be having trouble with a Script.   Now and again RS had mentioned that a P2 would happen, and brought up about the Engineers being Fallen Angels and also about they have looked at John Miltons Paradise Lost.  He did also mentioned again they would be going to the Engineers Homeworld, and David would be back in one piece and once David is back together he could become very Dangerous.

But then nothing came out for a while as attention was drawn to if Alien 5 would happen, which latter Ridley Scott had said it was a interesting idea and he would be Producer.   It was around this time, or not so long after that someone i know, had spoken to someone who claimed to have information about Prometheus 2, (passed on to me about February 27th 2015) which was going to drop the Prometheus name, and be called either Paradise Lost or would be called Pandemonium.   I wont go into detail about what they hinted the movie would be about, but it was to give answers from Prometheus and follow the Agenda of the Engineers and introduce TWO Monsters, and More than one David.  And hinted that David Re-creates (Xeno or Deacon) and Shaws role is small but a a Large Part of the Plot.

Then we heard nothing...... but then latter RS had announced that indeed Prometheus 2 was getting the Go head, the Script was done, and also Alien 5 is put on indefinite hold.  Again RS then announced the Title would be ALIEN: Paradise Lost.

Again he brought up about David and Shaw going to the Engineers Homeworld, and how David will be back in one piece and how they had a very interesting way this happens, and also suggesting again that David in one piece would be Dangerous.  He again mentioned inspiration from the Paradise Lost Poem.     He then also mentioned the Engineers are not Creators or God,  and then he mentioned if the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then who/what makes it so Worlds are able for this to happen... where is the BIG GUY?

He mentioned about how the Big Bang maybe is not a accident and how Stephen Hawkings even thinks this, and then he also mentioned about the Fallen Angels and how he saw those Engineers as Fallen Angels and Aggressive $"££$&^ but then he also said...  You have One Guy who is Hansom, goes to all the Parties gets all the Girls, while you have another Guy who is not as Hansom and stays at home being boring.

Then it was only a matter of weeks before RS announced the Movie is going head and would now be called ALIEN: Covenant...  and it would be about how THEY (David and Shaw) are off to the Planet of the Engineers, but there would be another group (Human Explorers) incoming, he then also mentioned about how they are off to the Engineers World which could be a dark and sinister place and not the Paradise, the incoming Humans are expecting.  He then mentions that the purpose of the Movie, is to show WHO and WHY would someone make such a Horrific Beast, if Felt like a Weapon, it was Bio-Mechnoid and the movie would begin to answer those Questions to who would make such a thing.

Then we got some insight into a kind of early Synopsis, regarding they are off to the Planet of the Engineers, where they would discover a EVOLVING Creature which THEY had made.  This They was a interesting statement as surely it could not mean They as in the incoming Human Colonist?   So it appeared we was being led to it being the ENGINEERS... but then the THEY could mean David and Shaw?

And it was then we started to get a Full Synopsis, Cast Information, Shooting Dates etc etc... and we ended up with the Movie that was ALIEN COVENANT.  Which did not quite add up to what Ridley Scott had been saying just before and just after announcing ALIEN: Paradise Lost never mind the comments over the years prior.

The clues the Source had passed on actually did seem to add up to RS comments prior to the Source and even Months after, and so indeed its very likely that the Original Prometheus 2 Ideas where very different.

Michelle Johnston

When it comes to characterization/actors, I would say that AC is the worst of the lot (only Fassbender is interesting in his doppelganger roll). In Alien, all seven were good actors (Holm and Hurt with a background in theatre) and created interesting characters. In Alien 3 there were very good actors (Charles Dance, Brian Glover, Weaver of course). In Prometheus there were also good actors (apart from Fassbender) such as Pearce, Theron etc. Even Aliens had characters that were interesting and that you could feel for (the same goes for AR). But AC had none (except Fassbender’s characters). The acting wasn’t bad, but you need good/interesting character actors around the main character (who usually isn't particularly interesting).

Also, before Hurt (Kane) gave birth to the alien, you had gotten to know him. He was a character that you felt for. When Ledward is impregnated by the neo, all you had seen of him before that was him smoking a cigarette. Some of those who died in the neo attack and by one of the xenos, you had barely seen. I’m still not sure who they were. And Oram . . .

But this was supposed to be about how to cook a xeno . . . I don’t think everything needs to be “fresh” as you put it. Sometimes you enjoy the repetitive, just as Christmas every year is always (almost) the same, and you can watch “A Christmas Carol” (perhaps different versions) for the 50th time or so.

Furthermore, I don’t think you should compare the xeno with a serial killer. The difference is that the xeno is a healthy animal whereas a serial killer is a disturbed human. The xeno just follows its instincts and is amoral (which is scary in itself) but it’s not evil. IT (the clown entity) is evil.

Also, the xeno might have some “over sexualised characteristics” stemming from Giger, but sex and violence might be good to watch sometimes (katharsis), just to turn everything upside down and let out repressed things we have inside us . . .

Well that is the big question, we can only go by what comments Ridley Scott had mentioned, Alien Engineers was pretty much a more Xeno Flick, it had equal share of Religious/Philosophy (more so than Prometheus) with a equal share of Xenomorph type Action and covering the Engineers.  FOX actually liked the Curve-ball about the Space Jockey Race (Engineers) and decided maybe they could make this a kind of Spin-off than a Direct Prequel and so Lindeloff was brought in to tone down any Xenomorph DNA.

In Hindsight, this disappointed a number of the Fanbase (Ridley Scott even said during Promotion of AC that in Hindsight removing the Xenomorphs was a mistake) and so FOX simply Felt that bringing in the Xenomorph and making the Movies now Tie more Literally into Alien was the way to go so that this movie would impress more Fans and General Public than Prometheus did.  

On a lot of sites like this, Youtube and other Forums of Communication regarding the Franchise, a number of gripes by Fans was pointed towards Prometheus and its Lack of Xenomorphs, its concentration on Dr Shaws Religious Curiosity and Quest for Answers, rather than what a lot of Fans Wanted and Expected from a Alien Prequel...   Which was HOW/WHERE/WHEN and WHY the Xenomorph came to be.  FOX no doubt also so the interest that Blomkamps Alien 5 had gained and Ultimately i feel they realized that Actually the Fans want the Xenomorph back and Answers and they must have thought Changing the Plot to deal with this would be a movie that more people would see and that means more $$$$$$

Next i will try and cover what Picture was being painted with Prometheus 2

ali81 - I mentioned something like this a while back.. I always thought they could make an entire movie out of the LV 223 incident.  It would even fit into the whole Alien franchise movie type. It would provide tons of info and detials on the Engineers, while also still maintaining the whole franchise theme of a group of "characters" in a confined area being hunted down by something after some sort of outbreak. Prometheus set it up perfectly, and it would allow so much to be explored with the Engineer side of everything.  That could even be used to give their history and where the LV 223 Engineers came from and how they relate to the others.

Here's my fun theory that I just came up with and want to throw it out there just in case  it's close to what happens lol.

This would be if they decide to make the derelict not as old as it seemed originally.  Maybe the derelict driver seat is an actual biological suit that rots as soon as it dies, like bodies. I always felt the close up images of the space jockey looked more deteriorated than fossilized.  I'm having a hard time coming up with the descriptive words for it, but it was almost cobweb like or soft/fuzzy looking around the eyes and ribs area. I know fuzzy isn't the word but it's what comes to mind lol, like a felt type fuzz.  This would allow it to look the way it did in the first Alien after about 10 years sitting on LV426.

So somehow, through some turn of events, the derelict full of eggs was on a delivery to meet David and supply him with enough eggs to use on all of the colonists on the Covenant ship.  Maybe some deal is made with whichever race is still interested in using the Xenomorph creatures.  What good are all of those bodies and how do you make an army without either a queen, or a ton of eggs/facehuggers.  The two embryos David brought are only good for two Xenos, and it disn't seem like he brought anything he would have used to create the eggs on Planet 4 if they weren't already there to begin with.

That, or the sad reality of the original Alien movie is that all of the thousands of eggs on the derelict were created from all of the colonists on the Covenant, being transported somewhere before crashing and remaining in a stasis until the Nostromo crew comes across another distress signal that David created to lure passing ships as he did with the Covenant crew.

Mystery. But isn't the point of the prequels to answer the story of the space jockey??

If David is not involved in the derelict eggs, what is the point of David's story? Where does the mechanical aspect of the xenomorph come from? I hope that the derelict is ancient but with Ridley who knows, he could have changed his mind on the matter...

I agree ali81, less than two sequels and it fails. But I don't think he will get funding for two more films because I think these movies are cooked to the general public and will not make the returns Fox needs to justify them...

I would keep it a mystery....

But something that hasn't been talked about: IF the Space jockey had been infected with the black goo...wouldn't he/she/it be transformed ala Fifield or Holloway? Can't imagine the horrors the pathogen would inflict on a Engineer!    And IF the BIO suit is 'alive' then the black goo would effect it as well.....Zombie Space Jockey with an infected biosuit.