Comments (Page 167)

from my understanding the chestburster feeds on its hosts blood supply and would probably releases a form of pain killer while gestating before its born

I think we Cant really be taking things too Literally, but this is the Problem Caused by going for the Chariots of the Gods type of Plot.  I would assume the Plot was NOT trying to put too much Emphasis on any Particular Mythos or Religion and so we have to Try and look at any Common Themes within them.  However some could look at the 2000 Years ago Date, and Various Christian Elements within Prometheus and Conclude that Christ had to be a Important Factor.

When looking at the Pharaoh Heads they are Elongated and some of the Concept Work for the Engineers had more Elongated Heads so you could wonder was there some Engineers/Visitors with Elongated Heads?

The Prometheus Engineers had a Slight Elongation but they was more of a Protrusion than Elongation.  Maybe some Engineers are Different and have Elongated Heads?

Or maybe they just wore Head Accessories and the like that gave the Impression they had Elongated Heads, and so Ancient Mankind then assumed without such Head-wear they would have a Elongated Skull?

Also a lot of Ancient Depictions and Art do tend to Exaggerate things so for instance a 8ft Person could be Drawn or Depicted as being FAR larger than 8ft.  some Ancient Cultures also Depict persons in Power, Royalty or would be Gods as being TALLER than a Normal Person as a way to Indicate their Higher Status.

I think when looking at our Engineers it could be that they would COME and GO at Certain Intervals and so they may come and STAY and Teach us Certain Things for a Number of Years and then they would Leave and Return Hundreds of Years Latter.

It could be that at ONE point when they was away for a Few Hundred Years they came back and saw that SOME cultures had Started to Develop their own Rules, Rituals etc that the Engineers saw as Concerning and the Roman Empire indeed could be ONE of those Civilizations.

The Egyptian Pharaohs could be Engineers or a Hybrid so sort of Demi-God/Engineers who are in Effect the Emissaries on the Engineers behalf who are Tasked to Maintain what the Engineers want from us and how we should be Governed etc.

If we accept this, and see how the Roman Empire had Influenced many Cultures with their Quest for Domination and Enforcing their Ways on the Various Civilizations they came into Contact with and Conquered, then INDEED you could bet the Engineers would NOT be Pleased ;)

 @BigDave: OMG, Ice Warrior and Otto Dix Invalid rolled into one;)

@BigDave: Is there something way bigger our ancestors might have done beyond the crucifixion of Christ that might have had the Engineers incensed enough to drop barrels of death and shit on us?  Given the shape of pharaoh heads being akin to the xenomorph, might it be the Roman conquest of Egypt? Or something else? 

Above is as Much as i have seen of the Master Narrative, if anyone has the Full Version or has a Better Idea what the Missing Words are then feel free to post ;)

I will add the Problem with Humanity would seem to be something that they became Concerned with and Decided they Needed to Create something to DESTROY us with.

I think we should not just look at this as purely being that we KILLED a Space Jesus though ;)

Creation, Sub-Creation, allowing or Creating something to become Sentient, and Procreate can Potentially be a Problem when this Creation does-not view its Creators as Superior or see the Need to Worship and Follow the Rules set by their Creators.

These Themes apply to Multiple Layers, and i think The Problem of Humanity is one of those Layers.

If we take WALTER is he a Concern?  Maybe NOT.. but if the Walter Models can become Sentient, have own Ambitions, Feelings/Emotions like David then that could be a Problem.... then what if the Androids could then Procreate (even if thats to MASS PRODUCE many in Factories).  This would become for us "The Problem of Synthetics" and so i think if we go the Level Back to Engineers/Humans then the The Problem of Synthetics for us is the same as The Problem of Humanity for the Engineers.

I think that may be one of the MILLION $$$$ Questions ;)

Alien 01: Master Narrative was the Pitch that Jon Spaights made that then Evolved to his Drafts, which include Alien Engineers and Alien Genesis, which then got Quite a Re-Write when Damian Lindeloff came aboard.

The Alien 01: Master Narrative i think could have Held Many Answers, Sadly i dont think its Available anywhere. We only had a Glimpse of some Pages from the Furious Gods Documentary.

I think we need to LOOK at what Little we got and apply it to what we saw in Prometheus. 

So in the Master Narrative these Engineers were likely Very similar to Mankind at some point, they had over MILLIONS of years at least, Evolved as far as Technology, Philosophy where some things became more Important to them than some Cultural/Society Norms.  These Engineers had Advanced Themselves Genetically and NOW they Live for Thousands of Years but they had also became Sterile.

Not Satisfied with this Level of Evolution, they likely Strive to be more, to become Immortal as they are Mortal After-all.  And so while they are Trying to Discover ways to Further Evolve themselves to some Higher State, they had Created Mankind.

They had Nurtured, Evolved our Species, Taught us Gradually many things, One Day in the Hope that ONCE the Engineers had Found their Godhead (Divinity) then Mankind could Inherit what they had Left behind and maybe ONE day when Worthy we could attain the same Status as them.

I would say that while Mankind Started to Learn Fast from our Creators, our Creators had Reached a Limit to how FAR they can Pursue becoming Gods/Divine as far as Attaining some kind of True Immortality.

While they Struggle to take to that Next Stage of Evolution, they maybe saw that Mankind was becoming Sentient, Realizing its their Creators Technology and Knowledge that ONLY makes them really GODS.

Once Mankind is able to Learn all of their Secrets then in Time we would Advance just like them.  (Imagine the Medical Advancements in Thousands of Years Time, would we be Confined to Living for 90-100 Years in say 5'000 Years Time?)  And so if a Species has these Secrets NOW and we Gain Them, then we could reach such Levels that would take us Thousands of Years within Hundreds.

So if the Engineers could No-Longer Procreate, and Mankind can in Great Numbers and we are becoming Sentient, and yet the Engineers have attained the Limits of Evolution, it is LIKELY they would FEAR that we would Eventually Overthrow them and Become the New Gods.

A King has his Reign....then he DIES.

And so in PART this is what the Problem of Humanity would be in Context to the Master Narrative, i would add However that this is only Interpretation and Speculation based on the Master Narrative Plot.

The Engineers Plot has likely Changed quite a bit in that Context, but i think my Reply does Apply quite  a lot to our Prequel Engineers.

@Thoughts_Dreams

Certainly the Occupant does-not have to be Human looking, i made this Image for a Topic on here Quite some time ago.

The Possibilities are kind of Endless to what a Alien Organism inside of a Space Suit could look like, i would like to think it best to USE something that we can make some Connection to the Xenomorph and Ancestry though, or Certainly some Unused Concepts from the Franchise or HR Gigers Work.

The Image i Posted in the OT was one of the Concepts for Fifield that has a similar Body Proportions to a Space Jockey (or so it appeared)  and aside from the Read or the Head which is a Bit Pointed, i think it would PASS as the Space Jockey, in the Image i also had the Cryo-Sleep Engineer, to show the Snorkel could be some Contraption that would Attach and FUSE with the Wearer and the Suit could be just as the Engineers  Cry-Sleep/Pressure Suits.

Like HR Gigers Necronom 7

We see some kind of Helmet/Mask that does-not Enclose the Entire Head, with Typical HR Giger style this Mask looks like its Attached/Fused with the Wearer.

So what i am saying is as with the OT is that maybe the Space Jockey Head is the Skeletal Remains of some Organism with a Elongated Head but the Snorkel is some Bio-Mechanical Apparatus that attaches to the Organisms Face and this Connects to the Suit that then Connects to the Chair.

The Occupant could be something thats NOT really the same as a Engineer or Human.

@hox

Certainly i think when we look back to when we First Saw the Space Jockey (for those who see ALIEN before the Prequels) it was Bizarre, so thinking that this PILOT was a Slave to the Ship, that he is Permanently a Prisoner of the Ship is something that some of Wonder before, and i think this is what James Cameron felt about the Space Jockey.

Trying to Imagine that this Pilot was Part of the Ship, that he was Enslaved or has some kind of Symbiotic Relationship is something that more Bizarre than a Bi-Pedal Organism/Entity that can come and go from the Chair at Will.

The Space Jockey had gone through some Evolution from Inception, starting off as being the Skeletal Remains of a Organism that is NOT very Human looking, who just Happened to Fall Victim to the ALIEN just as the Human Crew that Many Many years latter suffered the Same Fate.

This Dead Pilot having a Few Designs that were Nothing like a Human, Until RS had came across HR Gigers work and Necronom V

Ridley Scott liked the look of the Being that was like Riding on the Back of the Feminine Humanoid Figure (which inspired the Xenomorph in part).

The thing that RS did like was that it seemed this Being was Fused with what he saw as a Chair and he was SOLD on this idea for the Pilot and his Pilot Chair.  And so YES the idea of the Space Jockey being something that is FUSED to the Chair for Eternity is something that Originally seemed to be what they was going for.

This Necronom V was used as the idea for the Alien Pilot Species and it was drawn in some Ridleygrams.... but then they got HR Giger to come up with a Concept that was based on that and this is when we got the Space Jockey that we ENDED UP with.

HR Giger also doing some Concepts such as Face Huggers, and a Mural and these seem to depict Space Suits that had a somewhat Familiar Look to the Space Jockey, the Occupants were BALD Humanoids.. so this was something that HR Giger had drawn out, but from his Concepts you cant HELP but think these depicted some Species that were Enslaved to whoever had Created the Ship/Xenomorph.

I think before we got to Alien Covenant, then the Space Jockey was Ancient and so it could have been Explored as another Species, a Bio-mechanically Entity and indeed Certainly something that has become and has been at ONE with the Ship.... where we could then Speculate the Engineers had merely Reverse Engineered the Technology.

Alien Covenant makes it more difficult because it appears we must Accept (but its Subject to Change) that there is NO crashed Derelict or its Pilot as of the Time-Line that Alien Covenant had taken place...

This does not mean the Derelict cant be Introduced as a Incoming Ship, or that its Occupant is David, a Human or any kind of Engineer we have so far seen.

It could be a Space Suit with a not-so Human looking Occupant or a Totally Bio-Mechanical Construct, but i would assume they would be revealed to be Bi-Pedal and can Enter and Leave the Pilot Chair but they become as ONE while they are Connected.

Certainly would have been interesting in see how their WHOLE Society and Culture is RAN, and from these we could look at our History and what Differences we had and when.

When Chris Seagers compared the Hall of Heads to the Hierarchy, we have to assume these Statues represent like the Founders of the Ways of the Engineers, so they would have been the ones who had Set and Governed the Ways and Knowledge and so WHILE they may be gone, their Ways are likely Still Stored in that Cathedral on those Scrolls.  Much like how Abrahamic Religions would have their Books that keep the Ways of their Religion to be Taught and Passed on.

We can only Speculate on what those Hall of Heads guys looked like, as i would Assume they are LONG GONE, if they are NOT then surely they must be somewhat Divine or have Achieved some kind of Psychical Immortality which i doubt.

We cant really say if they are/were Vastly Taller, they could even be SMALLER than our Engineers.  It seems the Planet 4 Engineers would Vary quite a bit in Height, it appears they could be about 25% Taller than Humans and so maybe those Engineers can Range from 6-9ft

The LV-223/Prometheus Engineers had more of a Enigmatic look to them, they were like a Adonis Marble Statue of sorts, it could be that these Engineers are a Genetic Experiment/Upgrade and so they are more likely to be the Same as the Genetically Created Slaves in this Movie from 2016  called 2307: Winter's Dream/Solider 

"They are interesting but they could also introduce something that is farther away from humans"

I think that could work, as i had said by Adding another Layer to the Cake but we can only Imagine how FAR away from Humans these may look.  I am sure there are a Number of Plots you could use to Introduce some other Hierarchy above the Engineers.

Do they have to be a Organism?  What if the Higher Creators are Synthetic, well some kind of A.I but it could be that they was NOT always that way, but they Transcended themselves PAST the use of a Mortal Body... maybe they want Bodies Back?

This seems NOT too FAR from what Jon Spaights had as the Back Ground Plot when he pitched his Idea for a Prequel which had then gone through a Evolutionary Process until we arrived at Prometheus.

YEAH!!!!!

YEAH!!!!!

Ingeniero: I like that they used the Trilobite as a precursor to the facehugger. Compare it to how some birds have evolved from the dinosaurs. To me it looked like a more clumsy facehugger which is totally okay, I still wonder how it is able to move. Maybe they would have used something similar to it in another movie, I do not know but maybe they can be used in some comic book or something.

I am not sure about how this fits with the topic but it was about the hierarchy. I think that it would be interesting to see something about their society. Maybe they have something like priests, guards, doctors, and so on, each that has its purpose in their society.

If their society is hierarchical, then in some way those high up could also physically be taller to show strength so that could show that strength was something that the Engineers found important. Maybe this is a bit dumb but I just thought about that.

Sometimes practical effects work and sometimes they are needed. In this case I think that they should have been used because the Engineers should have looked more intimidating. Unfortunately what we got were some people that looked like humans with white face-paint which I think was a disappointment. They should have looked closer to the one in Prometheus simply because that looked better.

They are interesting but they could also introduce something that is farther away from humans because it could bring some needed mystery especially if they will go with the effed up idea that David created the monster. More Engineers would be nice and to see some about them but to have more mystery about them now that they have messed with the Xeno as a result of a bored robot.

That has been a mystery for so long so no matter what you do you will disappoint some people. How ever, something could be to have something that is above the Engineer sin the hierarchy to have as the Space Jockey, I am thinking about how disappointing the Planet 4 ones were and even if I found the one in Prometheus to be interesting what we saw in Alien Covenant made me wish that the SJ would be someone higher up in the hierarchy.

Maybe something more Alien than an Engineer could work. I am thinking about the Orchs in Lord of the Rings trilogy, not to say that you need to copy that but they look a bit human still different. The worst case scenario is to have David as the Space Jockey, or a human so if that is their plan then they should not make another prequel at all because the situation is bad enough as it is.

When we look at the SJ and compare it to the Engineers I think that there is a connection there. I think that having something above the Engineers could be a way to go if they will do another movie at all. Sorry but I do not think that that David should have anything to do with it at all, I am tired of that. You have had two movies where David has a big role and at least the second did not do too well so it would be foolish to have another movie that is about him, I am not interested in that but they could expand on the Engineers.

@BigDave,

I think that the HR Giger Aesthetic of Bio-Mechanical is what made ALIEN what it was, and i think we can only Hope the Space Jockey is such a Bio-Mechanical Entity but maybe we shall never find out. The purpose of this Topic is to Voice how you feel about the Space Jockey and what kind of Hopes that people have for HOW they would like it to be Revealed.

My own feelings are that embracing an Engineer in a chair does a disservice to Giger. Many of his paintings depict “creatures” that are bonded with their environment. The Giger print hanging on my wall, for example, shows a woman (of sorts) mechanically bonded to scuba gear, her mouth invaded by an oxygen tube. Some of her constraints blend into her body.

To a degree, this is successfully observed in the suits worn by the Engineers themselves: they blend seamlessly into the Engineer’s skin. I’m fine with that - very Giger-esque. But where I have total disappointment is the notion that the original SJ was just an Engineer (or similar) that just hopped into the chair. Even my cat can tell that the SJ meshes into the chair, bonded to it. Constrained. Trapped. Consumed. An integral part of the terrifying and alien whole.

Some still would like to see it as a Skeleton of some being and while it may not look like a Traditional Skeleton, we are talking a ALIEN Species and so we CANT assume their Skeletal Structure would be the Same as Organism on Earth.

Dead right. Our skeletons help us to move around. The SJ may or may not have had the ability to move around, but he ends up being part of a machine. He doesn’t need to run around, and he’s just fused with it. However it happened, and whatever its ultimate purpose, it’s alien and weird so we don’t need to worry too much about the details.

But as the ALIEN Franchise was Very ALIEN and there appeared to be a Connection between the Bio-Mechanical Ship and the Xenomorph, then WHY cant the Pilot be Bio-Mechanical?

Why not indeed.

I guess the only Problem then would be to ASK how can a Bio-Mechanical being become Chest Busted?

That’s a good question because you first have to know what an alien biomechanical being actually is. Let’s say, for example, that the ship itself was constructed (or grown) organically. Yay, that’s what super-advanced aliens can do. Did the chair and SJ grow together? Was the SJ grown separately and ultimately fused with chair? Can he ever leave? Is he happy with his life? Is he “fed” by the ship in a similar same way that a facehugger feeds its victim? Whatever, its organic history could likely be its Achilles Heel, and I imagine it could be chest bursted quite easily. Adding a bit of horror, let’s just suggest for a moment that a regular facehugger could penetrate a host by sucking out an eyeball and inserting its proboscis there. That would be a bit of fun, wouldn’t it. Not exactly Disney material, though!

The problem then is that it’s strongly implied in Prometheus that the SJ was something that just hopped in to do the piloting. As you know, I’m not happy with that idea for ideological reasons. One way out of that conundrum would be for the Engineers to be revealed as a race that revere a pre-existing civilisation/technology, and they emulate their forms. Or, here’s another scenario...

The ship slowly formed, and attained a size where it could detach itself from its umbilicus. The pilot chair grew and, with it, the pilot bud grew in size. Gradually becoming aware of its identity, environment and purpose, it suddenly sensed pain as it detected an invading creature hacking at its limbs. Screaming in terror, the young pilot could do nothing as it was excised from its mother. It twitched and withered on the cold platform as a bipedal form took its place. With no concern and utter alacrity, the Engineer powered up the navigation...

@Ignorantguy

I have not played the New Doom Games, i dont own a Latest Games Console, and my PC is about 10 Years or so OLD... i was a BIG Fan of the Original Doom Series though ;)

Looking Quickly into the Maykrs then i can see a bit of a Connection as far as to Angels etc.... they look at Quick Glimpse like say what Robocop 2014 was

As far as taking some Parts of a Organism but have the Rest of their Body being Mechanical/Synthetic...  again such a Future could await Humans in Thousands of Years Time as a way to try and Gain more Life!  But thats a different Subject all together.

I think that the HR Giger Aesthetic of Bio-Mechanical is what made ALIEN what it was, and i think we can only Hope the Space Jockey is such a Bio-Mechanical Entity but maybe we shall never find out.

@Hox

To be fair i think some Parts of the Ribs do look like Skeletal, but on Closer Inspection they look ODD for Ribs.

I have used the Image above to Highlight what i mean, when i refer back to the Concept Work and look at these Details it seems that what we have is either a Space Suit or a Totally Alien Bio-mechanical being like the Xenomorph.

I understand for some its a Disappointment to try and Reveal this as a Space Suit, and Certainly to have Humanoid Occupants.   I mean NO kind of Disrespect to whatever anyone else wishes to believe or hopes for the Truth to be.    We have covered the Space Jockey a bit as far as the Skeleton Debate, and while Dallas seems to indicate it is, we have to Remember that he is NO expert (but the Dialog was added for a reason).

The purpose of this Topic is to Voice how you feel about the Space Jockey and what kind of Hopes that people have for HOW they would like it to be Revealed.

Some still would like to see it as a Skeleton of some being and while it may not look like a Traditional Skeleton, we are talking a ALIEN Species and so we CANT assume their Skeletal Structure would be the Same as Organism on Earth.

So a Skeleton is something that while Unlikely, its something that CANT be 100% Ruled Out as we have YET to reach any Conclusion.

Above are TWO of the Space Jockey in the Flesh interpretations from the Older Comics, there was a Third but that was Comical.   So by all means WHY NOT as far as a Skeleton.

But as the ALIEN Franchise was Very ALIEN and there appeared to be a Connection between the Bio-Mechanical Ship and the Xenomorph, then WHY cant the Pilot be Bio-Mechanical?

I guess the only Problem then would be to ASK how can a Bio-Mechanical being become Chest Busted?

@Leto

Certainly the Intentions was to give us 12-15ft Engineers, but RS at Production had decided to Downgrade this and attempt to use Camera Angles to Allude to a 8ft Engineer, the Actual Cryo-Pods would only Accommodate up to a 8ft Tall being.  I think if we had a Continuation then we would have to Accept our Engineers as being a Average of 7.5ft Tall as a Race when not in the Space Suit.   But as NOT every Human is about 5ft10, then there could be 9-10ft Engineers as the Extreme of their Species, which would appear Taller when Space Suited and the Final Piece of the Puzzle is (as Dallas said) the Pilot could have Grown out of the Chair.

"strange biomechanical pilots"

I think Certainly that could be a Option, the more i had studied the Space Jockey over the Years (prior to Prometheus) it seemed to be more of some Space Suit or a Truly Bio-mechanical Being like the Xenomorphs are for example.

The Engineers Certainly could be looked at as being a Evolved Humanoid Species, who knows what Mankind could look like in say 10'000 Years.... but maybe we would be more like David by then ;)

I think while there are some Differences between the Space Jockey/Derelict and the Engineers/Juggernaught although the Intention seems they are the SAME... any slight Inconsistencies allows for Deniability by the Fans, and allows for things to be Changed.

If what we got was the SHIPS looked Aesthetically more Closer, and the SUITS likewise and we saw the Engineers as 10-12ft on our Screens and the Dead Engineer Suits became a Bone-Like Color or getting there..... then there would be more Concrete Proof and us having to Accept that they are the Space Jockey.

@Ignorantguy

David behind the Space Jockey is maybe a likely Scenario, Certainly as far as if he could either Transfer his Soul to a NEW Body/Being or he had Created the Space Jockey, i would think that these are a Possible Path that RS would have taken us.   As far as it just being Regular David inside the Space Suit then again this CANT be ruled out.

We could expect that it would be a Engineer, we could HOPE that its either a Newly Introduced Species or Taller Engineer/Humanoids, i think its maybe Clutching at Straws to be the Skeleton of some Species.

But if we got a Continuation it seems the Path to ALIEN is a Chronological One and as the Themes Explored are about Sub-Creation and Evolution and also RS seems interested in A.I then i do think that we could have ENDED up being shown that the Space Jockey as a Creation/Organism is something that has NOT yet been Created as of Alien Covenant.

Not what i would have liked, but i am one who can take that Bitter Pill and Swallow it, hopefully there be a Spoon Full of Sugar to help that Medicine go down ;)

@BigDave, I’m not sure why you say on close inspection the rib cage doesn’t look like a skeleton. When Dallas peers over the SJ body and says the bones are bent outward, it sure looks like a ruptured skeleton to me. The broken jagged bone ends look like something you’d find in a butcher’s shop. I mean, tell me these aren't bones!

@BigDave I still believe that the Space Jockey in the end would have been David, sorry. That makes thematic sense even if you don't like the idea.

Have you seen Doom Eternal? In it that they introduced the Maykrs and they have a SJ flavor to them (biomechanical and the rest). And the new Icon of Sin... 

I like the humanoid Engineers (both from Prometheus). They look like ideal humans. Or future humans - Engineers are different from humans in the same way that humans are different from apes.

But yes - the main point is the height. Engineers should be higher. I understand that Ridley wanted to make Engineers look like humans for a story point. But I don't see any "story" reasons why they should be roughly equal to the size of us. Most likely this is a technical aspect, but not the story.

Maybe Ridley did not want to mess with the angles of filming. Or didn’t want to use CG (I respect that). Or in the script already was a moment in which the Engineer went on the human ship. Therefore, for the sake of this scene, he had to adjust the height.

Back to the topic. About Space Jockey.

I want to see them, as strange biomechanical pilots, who grow out of the chair, but I feel that showing these creatures will look like a kind of "backtracking". A recognition that they screwed up.

It seems like - "Well, we have Engineers who look like humans, but their spacesuits look like Space Jockey. And now we are introducing the Space Jockey, who look like Engineer's spacesuit, which look like Space Jokey... Well, a true Space Jockey from Alien. It's not the suite."

I feel that this will be an even bigger confusing mess. Especially if Ridley says: "Ho ho ho! I want to leave some mystery and will not explain anything to you."

P.S. Nice picture with marked details of Space Jockey.

I think trying to get back to the OT as far as what you may be referring to, seems to be that One Species/Faction of Engineers had Created us for Good Intentions while another had intended to Destroy us with Different.

If this is to suggest that our LV-223 Guys had intended to Destroy us because we KILLED the Emissary and they was UPSET at the Civilization/Culture of the Roman Empire and maybe then WHY does Planet 4 look so much like such a Culture?

This is a Rabbit Hole that has a number of ways we can look at it.  For example had the Planet 4 Engineers had Influenced our Roman Culture, was this against what the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers had intended?

You would have to Wonder WHY had the Planet 4 Engineers not been Punished/Destroyed?

Maybe they knew the LV-223 Engineers was not pleased with how Mankind had became, and maybe they too Feared they would be on the Receiving End of the LV-223 Engineers Wraith... and so they Intervened in Sabotage or Similar to Eradicate the LV-223 Engineers causing the Outbreak?

A Problem with this is that the Planet 4 Engineers did-not look Concerned about a Incoming Juggernaut but its seemed the Ship was Familiar to them but they had NO Fear, so they either must have been Confident the LV-223 Engineers are all DEAD and these Juggernauts are not Confined to LV-223 or that both sets of Engineers may be on the same Page?

You could look at it as though they (LV-223 Engineers) decided to GIVE UP on Mankind, but they had taken some Humans to Planet 4 and so Created/Interbred what we see as the Planet 4 Engineers and left Earth to ROT as without their HELP then Mankind would be STUCK on Earth.

The Problem is that RS and Seagers had indicated that Planet 4 would Predate Mankind and so the Architecture on Earth including the Roman Empires are Inspired/Taught by those who had Constructed the Buildings on Planet 4

I guess we could look at the Engineers on LV-223 as being tasked as being Watchers, but they decided instead to Interfere and Confidence Mankind to follow their Ways, and so they wished to Influence Mankind in ways that the Hierarchy of the Engineers would have Forbidden...   But just as the LV-223 Engineers decide to go against their Hierarchy wishes... they discover that Mankind become Rebellious and go against the Watchers (LV-223 Engineers) intentions and ways, and so they decided to REPLACE US with something Else.

The BIG Problem with such Ideas as i have discussed in this REPLY is the Location of Planet 4 in relation to Earth and LV-223, had the Engineers Home-World/Planet 4 been Located FAR FAR FAR away like 1000's of Light Years, then Scenarios as i put in this TOPIC could be more Plausible.

I would Safely Assume that if RS was not Forced to make Alien Covenant a Movie that would Directly begin to Connect to ALIEN and introduce the Xenomorph...  then i would assume that a Prometheus 2 would have taken David and Dr Shaw to a WORLD that is FAR beyond the Reach of Human Technology even as of ALIENS.

They seem LESS-SO by Virtue of Planet 4 and LV-223 being on the Door Step to Each other and a Stone Throw away from Earth in Terms of Engineers Technology.

Which would have left LESS of a Restraint and more Flexibility on Expanded the Engineers Agenda and History.

"So they made new models - the Planet 4 beings: more submissive, obedient etc"

This Certainly was a Conclusion you could draw, One that i was a Little Drawn too, until some of the Commentary Came out, but it seems those Planet 4 Engineers could Predate Mankind.

Maybe we was a latter Experiment, that Failed when we became a Race that Left Alone would Develop to have our own Views and Cultures and ways than KEEP to what the Engineers wanted from us.

I cant seem to Find where i had read that either Ridley Scott or Chris Seagers had referred to the Planet 4 Engineers as the Originals...  maybe i was mistaken?

It certainly is the case the Hall of Heads guys predate us, but thats not to say they are the SAME as those Planet 4 Guys, and so in FUTURE it could be revealed on Screen that the Planet 4 Engineers are a Hybrid of Humans and Engineers and that WE do Predate those Planet 4 beings...

I will add a lot of this Subject may end up being similar to what has been discussed in other Subjects like THIS ONE of yours Dark Nebula we have had Plenty of Subjects on the Engineers over the years.

The Main Purpose for this Topic (but i welcome things that go Off Topic a bit) was to discus the Hierarchy Order of the Engineers and we have to ASSUME that the Hall of Heads represents this, so its a case of are we  PLEASED about that?  

Should those Hall of Heads guys be revealed as being much Taller?  The Space Jockey is one Dilemma that Bugs some Fans, Particularly the Height, but we have debated this quite a LOT over the years.

Alas they was supposed to be 12-15ft, but RS was against using Special Effects and wanted to be as Practical as Possible.  This does-not rule out a Introduction to a Taller Race of Engineers, or even a Engineered Giants.

We have discussed such things before however... the Scale Difference for our Space Jockey could be explored by introducing another Species/Modification of a Humanoid.

We could maybe even introduce the SJ as another Species all together.   I think when looking at Prometheus and to a degree Alien Covenant what we see (and it applies to Various Mythos/Religion) is a Sub-Creation, Creator and Rebellion Narrative.

Engineers Create Mankind, who Create David, who potentially could Genetically Engineer the Human Embryo's to Create his Own Humanoids... and each time there is a Rebellion of Creation against their Creator.

And so the Origins of the Engineers could be from a Enslaved, maybe Created Species that are a USED by another Species until a Time of a Rebellion and Down Fall of this other NOW FALLEN Species from Millions and Millions of Years or Much Longer in the Past.

Such a Species could be FAR LESS Human looking if they chose to introduce such a Layer to the Cake.

I am Fine with the Engineers, and having to accept our Space Jockey is a Engineer... i would however like to see another Layer of the Cake that is NOT SO as Human as Mankind and Engineers.... be this Layer Pre-Exists the Engineers or is something that say David would Create.

I dont think we need to go too ALIEN with it though ;)

"I have long speculated that the hall of heads was some kind of Parliament"

That certainly is a likely Prospect, what we have to remember is some comments that RS has said about the Engineers.   It seems indicated that Earth is surely not the only World they had Seeded and Manipulated Life in their own Image.   They (RS and Seagers) had indicated the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization, and RS has said before that just because Mankind has Various Races, then WHY cant the Engineers.

As you noted Dark Nebula some of the Hall of Heads Engineers do have some differences like how Various Races of Humans on Earth have some differences as far as Eyes, Nose, Bone Structure etc.  The image i posted above is interesting because Number 3 looks quite different, Number 4 a little too, they have somewhat of that Star Trek Bajoran look to them.  So its possible there are Differences to the Scale of in Star Trek as far as some Humanoid Races, for example Vulcans look Very Human.

But then Humans can also look different to each other especially some Races seem to have more Variety in Appearances between themselves.

I think however if we bring it back to the Hall of Heads then its likely these GUYS are Long Gone, unless they have Found a Secret to Extend their Lives, or they as Founders and Ancient have a Longer Life Span than the more Modern Engineers.  But it would seem likely those beings who had those Statues Made in their Image are GONE if we assume these Statues are Many Thousands of Years Old.   But then they may-not represent individuals but Entire Different Species/Races of Engineers. 

But as RS said they are the 10 Apostles then its likely they represented 10 Individuals, but these Individuals could have some Racial Differences. 

The Whole Engineers Background could have been expanded in MANY ways with Curveballs... like they could have revealed that they came from US.. Mankind, and so that Humans Predated them many Millions of Years ago, but these Humans (from Distant Worlds) are Gone but maybe some Engineers began to Re-Create us on Earth?

Or that many Races Existed and their was some Great War of the Worlds, and at the End of this, Various Humanoid Races decided to come together and START a New World on Planet 4, in Peace and Intermixed with each other.

There are so many ways that their History and the History of Humanoid Species could have been Explored.

The Engineers are Gardeners of Space, we can assume that ONE of their Main Objectives would be to Experiment, Evolve and Engineer various types of beings in their Image and with their Mixed DNA.

The Engineers come and go to that place (Planet 4) as far as RS had said, and so its likely they either have other Worlds or they have other Worlds they have Sub-Creation like Humans on that they Visit.

Planet 4 maybe being a Genetic Stock Pool from which they Source Material to Seed/Evolve Worlds, or they do these on other Worlds until they achieve a desired Result and introduce this Species to their Gene-pool on Planet 4.

I would say these Hall of Heads are the Founders of a Culture and Ways that these Species had decided to adopt be it that they are ONE Race, or a Group of Races that had came together to FORM a NEW ORDER.

I have long speculated that the hall of heads was some kind of Parlament, but also a very old and sacred place for engineers. Looking at each stone head in the hall, I noticed that each stone head depicts a different engineer: One head depicts an engineer with wrinkled skin, raised brow ridges, high nose bridge. Another head depicts a younger engineer with raised brow ridges and a high nose bridge (similar to that of a sacrificial engineer), the other head depicts an engineer with low nose bridge and wrinkled skin, etc. You get what I mean. There are 7 stone heads in total.

The stone heads also appear in David's lab.

It seems to me that each stone head depicts an elder, and that specific elder is a representative of a race, culture of engineers. Ridley did say that the hall of head depicts elders; intellectuals, artists, wise men. So, one stone head might represent Planet 4 engineers, the other one LV-223 engineers, as for the others it remains a mystery.

As far as another species being introduced, I already pointed this out in other topics, the space jockey might just be one of the LV-223 engineers, genetically enlarged and enhanced for specific jobs. I drew my own depiction of SJ, so I will show it here:

I apologize for my Long Posts ;)  its hard to keep things short on some subjects and this certainly is one of them.

I think regarding the Space Jesus i think its something we have to NOT try and look at too Literally the Plot seems to be just as much about other Various Mythos as well as the Abrahamic Aspect.  And so i think the Emissary take on it works better.

I think its likely the Engineers may have been Disappointed with Mankind prior to the appearance of that certain Emissary and so these were sent down to TRY and Guide us back to ways that appeased the Engineers, but we instead had KILLED some of these Emissaries.

I think the Anger was more so than just the Roman Empire, i think they saw various Civilizations that were not behaving in the way the Engineer liked, they likely saw how much the Culture and Ways of Large Empires had Spread, and Felt that to simply Eradicate a Certain Continent/Empire would NOT be a way to Guarantee that the WAYS of Man that offended or threatened the Engineers would NEVER reappear again.

I think the Plot is to show that a lot of the Architecture/Constructions of Mankind are Influenced by the Engineers.  There certainly is a Aesthetic Connection to Planet 4 and some Cultures on Earth in the past like the Roman Empire.  I think maybe we have to ASSUME that this kind of Aesthetic Architecture on Planet 4 does predate those on Earth.

I think its so OPEN for debate and Speculation as to HOW FAR they influenced Mankind and IF everything that we was TAUGHT had came with the Consent of the Engineers Hierarchy.

I think in Light of this we have to maybe try and APPLY the Fall of Lucifer and Prometheus Betrayal to the Plot, more so than any kind of Space Jesus plot as per say.

So it becomes a Question of WHO is Prometheus more so than who was Christ in the overall Plot.  And this is a Question where we dont have a Definite Answer, but i think we can assume by Virtue of the Prometheus Poster etc that the BIG HEAD has something to do with this.

Some think it represents the Sacrifice of the Sacrificial Engineer and so he is Prometheus but this would not FIT with a lot of the Prometheus Mythos and so i think we cant look to LITERAL and so as with the case of a Space Jesus so to Speak, the intention (well comment) by RS could suggest he was NOT the only Emissary and so when looking at other Single Figures such as Prometheus it could be applied that its not a SINGLE Figure but a it represents a Group.

So this Raises the Question of are the LV-223 Engineers the Prometheus, was Mankind Created without the Consent of the other Engineers, or was we designed for a Purpose but the Promethean Engineers had Taught us more than we was Intended, was this done for Good, or to Spite their own Hierarchy?

I think there are Many ways this can be Interpreted and Speculated, and its something i am sure we would have liked to had seen EXPLORED... which with AC we sadly got No Answers.

I will say there is quite a Connection Between Figures such as Lucifer, Prometheus and Enki likewise maybe between GOD/Angels, Titans/Olympians and indeed Annunaki/Igigi and i think a number of Fans may have wanted them to LOOSELY try and Expand on this in Connection to the Engineers.

When we look at these Various Figures, its a case of do we Consider that Enlil, YHWH and Zeus the GOOD GUY? and so are Enki, Lucifer and Prometheus the BAD GUYS?

You consider the Former to be the GOOD GUYS... but then if you look at the Intention for Mankind and who wants to be giving out the PUNISHMENT and Destruction then those Good Guys intentions are NOT so Good for Mankind.

The other Guys had Disobeyed the Hierarchy, but they in doing so had Enlightened Mankind... to Levels the Hierarchy had NOT intended or Forbidden.... and so maybe there is a SIMILAR kind of Connection that we could apply to the Engineers.

"due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of"

Great point but dude, you need to make your Comments shorter^^

Who the "good" and "bad" Engineers are is maybe a question of perspective. My point here is this:

2.000 years ago the Romans crucified Jesus. Ridley Scott didn't mention that in Prometheus explicitly (because it would be "to on the nose") but this is definitely what he had in mind. This crucifixion was obviously not for the joy of the Prometheus Engineers (which is why they tried to destroy humanity) and so they were not sympathetic to the Romans' way of life. But the AC Engineers resemble the Romans so closely that they must have been the ones who taught the Romans how to do business. And so the Prometheus and AC Engineers must be at odds with one another.

This is my point. Who is the god/Zeus/Satan/Prometheus/Annunaki/Igigi party surely is up to debate!

But maybe this is all wrong and the beings on Planet 4 are not an active player at all! David and Walter may mimic humanity and the Planet 4 beings. Like David and Walther are discussing:

"You were too human, too idiosyncratic, thinking for yourself. So they made the following models with fewer complications."

"More like machines..."

Maybe humanity resembles David - the Engineers first try: individualistic, idiosyncratic and with a mind of their own. But quickly the Engineers got scared of us. So they made new models - the Planet 4 beings: more submissive, obedient etc. and they set out to destroy their first creation - humanity.

This is my big beef with AC: You have the Planet 4 beings (Engineers? One of their creations?) right in front of your f*** nose and you learn nothing. Absolutely catastrophic decision by RS in my mind.

I think if i look more at the Question of is there Good/Bad Engineers.

Then i would say thats likely, Certainly in the Past, but if we are talking about Currently Factions that are Good and Bad then i think thats more Difficult to Conclude.  You could have a Country who you would consider are GOOD but they have people who are BAD, as well as GOOD.. this Country could Consider another as BAD, but then this BAD Country could consider the Accusing Country as BAD.

Mankind is both Good and Bad, and looking at the Engineers i would consider that they have become something thats just Neutral if you would.  But they may consider themselves Good, but others may consider them as Bad.

We had RS mention that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's and the beings that David would encounter are FAR from Benevolent, but this does-not make them EVIL.  Sometimes there are Necessary Evils for the Greater Good (like you could consider if the ATOMIC Bombs had NOT been Dropped on Japan then in the next 5 years it would be likely MANY more Lives World Wide would have been Lost, including the Japanese).

Ridley Scott always seems to indicate the Engineers as Gardeners of Space and puts a Emphasis on Creation more than the Destruction.  He refers to the Sacrificial Act as a Benevolent one.

He calls the Planet 4 Engineers as the Civilians of the Engineers Society and the LV-223 as the Military, and YET the Sacrificial Engineer looked more like the LV-223 Engineers than Planet 4 and this maybe is NOT a Oversight.

so the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers appear to be the same, they appear Genetically Enhanced for their Purpose.

So they use these Adonis Specimens for Seeding but also to use for WAR... but the Juggernauts do-not look like they are WARSHIPS... they are merely a SHIP that carries Cargo that can be used as a Biological Weapon.

So if we assume that indeed they use these more Enhanced Specimens to Seed Worlds and this is what Creates Life but not Necessary Horrific Life such as the Neomorph.  Then this ACT of Self Sacrifice is seen for the Greater Good and BENEVOLENT.

The Actions of the LV-223 Engineers however is Considered to be Malevolent but is it really on the GRAND SCALE?

Provided the Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Engineers are on the same PAGE.. then their Actions could be Deemed as Necessary for the Greater Good and so are NOT a MALEVOLENT Race.

But when we are due to be on the receiving END of their Actions, as a Precaution to Eradicate a Threat then from our Perspective it would seem a EVIL ACT.

However Consider this.... it seems likely (as indicated by RS) that WE are NOT the only World the Engineers had Seeded and maybe Created Intelligent Life, this would be a WISE idea for the Engineers.   And so if ONE such Worlds Inhabitants are deemed Rebellious, a Threat or a Failure then to Eradicate them, and Start Again makes Sense.

We need to Remember that to the Engineers we could be Considered nothing but Chimpanzees...  so lets Consider these TWO Scenarios.

1) Scientist Mess about with the Apes and Evolve them Mentally like we saw in Planet of the Apes, and they also Evolve to be more Human as far as Dexterity (THINK about Planet of the Apes). 

2) We are Genetically trying a Bio-Weapon Virus on the Apes, and it shows signs of passing to Humans and getting out of Control. Then some Apes get loose...

If these Apes are Contained say in a Country lets say Australia, and are Considered a Mistake and Potential Threat.

Then our ONLY option could be to CULL them... it may seem Drastic but its Necessary, and we have other Apes on other Continents that are NOT effected so we are NOT exactly going to be Destroying their Entire Species.

What we do to those Apes would be Considered BAD especially for the Apes, but for the Greater Good it is Necessary and so we would NOT be considered as MALEVOLENT for this Action.

But we should then take NOTE and Learn from the Mistake or Face a Future Hubris, especially if we FAIL to CULL the Problem.   Do you learn lessons and improve SAFEGUARDS? or do you ABANDON any Future Experiments and Learn your Lesson?

THIS.... is how i think we should look at the Engineers, and in this case they may not be Considered EVIL...

We can be EVIL... we have Created David who we can see has become Evil to a Degree, yet we have Walter who we consider as NOT really Evil.... do we CULL the Synthetics, or Learn from the Mistakes of David, and hope that the Walters never suffer the same Issues.

Would Destroying the Synthetics be considered as BAD? it would if those Synthetics became Sentient like David, as far as how the Sentient Synthetics would deem such a Action.

So with the Engineers and Humanity its similar.

This HOWEVER... does not rule out that at Present of in the Past that Factions of Engineers had their own Conflicts of Interests and are deemed Good/Bad by their Agenda.. we also cant rule out that the LV-223/Prometheus Guys are to the Planet 4 Guys as the Replicants in Blade Runner are to Humans.

I think when we look at the Reason for WHY we was scheduled to be DESTROYED its another Open Question to a degree, YES at first it in part was NO Coincidence to the Crucifixion of Christ, but then he had said that was TOO on the Nose and that Christ was a Emissary.

If we are trying to look at it in Context to Prometheus etc, then its Pretty Obvious that Jesus is not depicted as 7-8ft and Bald ;) and so likely he was a Hybrid or a Human that was TAUGHT the ways of the Engineers, and sent down on their Behalf.

If you have Created a Sub-Species and wish to Interact with them and Guide them and teach then Limited Knowledge, maybe in Time you would find it Better for some Reason to SEND down beings that look more ALIKE the Humans, than sending down 8ft Members of your Not Quite Human Race.

So there could be MANY such Emissaries, well certainly more than just the ONE.  And it would seem as far as the Engineers that they had send down these Emissaries to try and Guide us to a Path or Behavior that the Engineers felt was Appropriate because we had started to Behave in Ways that Offended them, and turning out to be a Civilization doing things and seeing the Engineers in ways that the Engineers had not DEEMED.

We have to assume these Emissaries are Considered Good as far as the Engineers would see them, but then if we consider Prophets and the like, such as Jesus in this Context are seen as doing GOOD for Mankind, then surely the THINGS they are trying to Change in Mankind are NOT considered to be BAD/EVIL.

But after we had Disobeyed the Engineers or/and Offended them and KILLED the Emissaries that were Sent Down to put us back on Track, then this resulted in the ORDER to CULL our Species if you would...

This would have to be seen as these Engineers doing something that is Beneficial to their Species/Ways/Order, but that would seem Wicked and a Overreaction to Mankind.

Again these Subjects are something that can have Multiple Ways to explain and Explore them. 

What we do know is the Engineers or Emissaries had Visited Mankind across various Periods and Places in Time for at least 35'000 Years.  I think we have to Consider the Prometheus Mythos quite a bit too, rather than be looking at Biblical Accounts by Virtue of the Space Jesus Angle ;)

So maybe we had some Engineers or Watchers if you would who are TASKED with keeping a EYE over us, maybe Teaching us Limited Stuff.... we could WONDER had some of these began to Pass-On Forbidden Knowledge?

Could these Watchers if you would then have been Banished and even Punished for the HARM they had Caused... and the Hierarchy decided to send down Emissaries who looked more Human to TRY and put things RIGHT?

Again trying to Figure Out who the Good/Bad Guys are is something thats Interesting but something that may be HARD to get to the Bottom of.

I will say the Planet 4 Engineers never came across to me as a Malevolent Species.  But then Mankind may not be considered likewise... but they may be considered likewise if we looked at Blade Runner as far as how the Sentient Replicants would feel about their Purpose and then how Mankind saw them as a Threat and wanted to CULL them.

Thats not saying Blade Runner and Prometheus are Connected, but just that when looking at the Sub-Creation, Purpose and then attempt to CULL the Rebellion, is something that is maybe at Play on Multiple Levels as far as the Engineers and their Creations ;)

Well this is a TOPIC that has No Real Answers because it Potentially has MANY ;) it really is Very Open for Debate and its certainly part of a reason i abandoned making my own Prometheus Sequels (stories) due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of.

Maybe we should-not be looking too LITERAL, but certainly that many Mythos and Connections had arose from our Interaction with the Engineers.   I was going to START a Topic today that may Conflict with this ONE.. well in Part what it covered can be covered on this Topic.

I think we need to go BACK to the Beginning if you would, the Sacrificial Scene seemed to indicate and RS and others comments also Implied that the Seeding of Worlds was done with Good Benevolent Intentions, or certainly what are Beneficial to the Engineers.

And yet Ridley Scott then said that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's he also referred to them as like the Fallen Angels.  And i have said a Number of Times we maybe need to look at what he meant by this!

Fallen as in Demons as in EVIL, Wicked and Cruel? which is what some look at THE DEVIL as being. Well having them being called Aggressive £!"$£"% and depicting them as having NO LOVE for Mankind could FIT that Bill.

However we also have to Consider that Fallen is also what becomes of those who go AGAINST the Hierarchy (or GOD) if you would.  In this Context then you look at the Devil as being a being, a Creation that was Perfect, Sentient to a Degree, who then began to Question as to WHY he and the other Angels should BOW down and Serve God and be Servants... he was Very Arrogant and had Pride in his Abilities which he felt he was being Limited.  And so his Rebellion against Gods Rule is what was his First Fall. Does this alone make someone Wicked?

With Mankind you can look at Lucifer as either Deliberately Corrupting Mankind to SPITE his old Master GOD and show that his NEW Creation could be made to Disobey the LORD too.  Or you could see it that Lucifer simply saw that Mankind was Created to be another NEW Subservient Species that would be HELD BACK by the Knowledge that GOD would Forbid them to have... would this be Considered a Wicked Act?  As far as GODS Purpose and Agenda then it would appear to be a GREAT disobeying with severe Ramifications.   And so Considered BAD by GOD.

I mention the above because i FEEL they are a KEY to what is going on with the Various Engineers we see ;)

With Prometheus we had the ELDERS who appeared to look like the Engineer but just more Frail and Old... but as this SCENE was removed (Elders) it maybe means we cant assume the Hierarchy is intended to look as those Elders did.

Ridley Scott had mentioned he removed the Scene as he did-not want to give too much away, and that he did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie.  This could imply that those Elders would either be the Hierarchy/Gods or that  he was going to replace them with something that would be the Hierarchy/Gods.

When talking about Prometheus 2 he said that those beings in Prometheus where the FALLEN ANGELS, which implies they are either Wicked/Evil and Deceitful or they had Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy. It was likely something between those TWO.  

He then had also mentioned that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings.. who are NOT really GODS! Not in the Traditional Sense and that these beings are FAR from Benevolent.  This could mean that they would be seen as more Malevolent, but this could just be HOW we would see them as far as their Intentions with us. (are Mankind Evil because we Experiment on Guinea Pigs and Apes).

If we try and Combine what was said by RS, then it could imply that the World that David and Dr Shaw would arrive at (Paradise) maybe contained beings who were DIFFERENT to our Prometheus Engineers, but who were still NOT really GODS and would be seen as FAR from Benevolent as far as how they would see and act towards Mankind.

This maybe does-not mean the Engineers are Malevolent but that as far as we are Concerned we would Consider them as such.  By that i think its easy to Consider the Replicants, would you Consider what the Blade Runners were Tasked with as being Malevolent?   If say we see Walter Models become Sentient like David, maybe NOT all of them would be Wicked to Humans... but they would pose a Concern to Mankind and a great RECALL well a CULLING of them would be required.. would that make Mankind Evil?

So its a Tricky Question when dealing with the Engineers, as its such a OPEN kind of Plot.

But its maybe one that makes more Sense IF maybe we look at the Prometheus Engineers more like Lucifer and David and Replicants.  

When trying to figure out WHO really are the Bad Guys i think its Very Open... there could be ONE Wicked Faction but then they all could be GOOD/BAD depending on how we look at them and MANKIND.

@Nathan Adler

Certainly the Term Deacon had been brought up because of how the one Concept that they decided to go with did look like it had a pointed HAT of a Bishop, so i dont know why they never just called it a Bishop ;)

A Deacon as far as Religious is a Servant of the Church (also a Rank that they take up on their Progression to a Higher Rank within a Church), and so as you mentioned as far as Ministerial Rank if we try and apply that a bit Literally to the Organism then it must be some kind of Servant, i think you could end up interpreting this in many ways though ;)

Certainly seems the Deacon as per say is a Organism that Predates the Xenomorph (even prior to the release if AC).  The Conclusion i reach is that the Engineers had been Experimenting with Various Hybrids that are related and Predate the likes of the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph and so after a lot of Experiments they had achieved something they deemed as a Masterpiece and they then made that MURAL to Celebrate what they had achieved.  This Organism being to the Engineers, what the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant was for David... the FRUITS of their Labor/Experiments.

Its interesting to bring up Norse Mythology, i think one of the Interesting things with Prometheus was to WONDER how they would eventually/loosely tie in the Various Mythos and Religions to the Engineers Agenda/History.

And Certainly YGDRASSIL is interesting as its like a Central Point to the Cosmology of the Norse Mythos, Branching off to the 9 Worlds of the Mythology.

Going back to the Alien 01 The Master Narrative then the Engineers were attempting to Transcend as beings of Energy to traverse and see the Ten Dimensional Multi-Verse, which if we apply the  YGDRASSIL then this could be seen as what Connects  those Dimensions the Root, the Branches the Bridge.

But then this is a bit Off Topic.

We can only Speculate that the Alter Contained upon it something that was either a Source to allow them to Create Life, or something that they was using to Achieve a Different Form of Life/Evolution.

@Michart

What i see is a Indentation as indicated in the image below, it does not seem to be any kind of Body Part of any Organism, but this does-not mean that it Contains something inside that is related to the Deacon or other Organism.  Such as Ancient Organisms that are Crystallized in Amber.

I think as i said before that Regardless in the SHIFT from the Sacrificial Bowl to the Green Crystal, i cant see the SHIFT from the Purpose of the ALTAR being changed Dramatically, but that ASSUMES that it had a Purpose and was not just their just to look COOL.

There is that Draft that mentions the Blood of their Lord etc, but this is 95% Certainly just a FANS addition/edit.

Things do Change, but i feel we can still take Clues from Spaights Earlier Work such as his earlier Drafts... ONE massive Clue would be his Alien 01 The Master Narrative if we ever got the FULL version of this i think it could be used to UNLOCK some of the Mystery/Secrets.

What it seemed to indicate are the Engineers were quite like Mankind back Millions of Years ago, as they continued to Evolve, and make Scientific Breakthroughs, they eventually Evolved Culturally beyond the Needs for Entertainment like Music and Arts, they had Pursued the AGENDA to Genetically Enhance themselves Physically and Mentally which lead to Great Advancements that eventually made them Sterile.  They had the Ultimate Agenda of Evolving/Transcending themselves BEYOND a Physical Form and thus a kind of Immortality.

But ALAS we cant take this Plot as being what is the MAIN reason for the LV-223 Connection in Prometheus. We dont have the FULL version of  Alien 01 The Master Narrative, from what we have it seems to FIT more with the Engineers being a Ancient Race trying to Evolve themselves to Divinity, choosing to Create Life in their Image to Pass on their Knowledge for the Time when they Eventually Reach that Godhead. 

So it was more about Creation, Seeding, Knowledge etc than the Pursuit of Horrors like the Xenomorph... until a Certain Point they felt they Needed Such Horrors to Protect themselves from their Creations.

But as i said such a PLOT may not be relevant as of Alien Covenant, i think when looking back at Prometheus the indication seems to be that the SACRIFICIAL Scene seems to be a Important thing that Predates the Infatuation with the Deacon and the like.

Looking at Alien Engineers and Alien Genesis it appears likewise that the Engineers Agenda was Creation, Passing on Knowledge until a Certain Point in Time they instead became Obsessed with such Horrors relating to the Xenomorph.

So trying to get back to the OT... in context, then i think the Sacrificial Cup or Crystal was likely the Source of a Powerful Tool that can be used to Create/Evolve Life, that at some point those Engineers began to TEST this with another Organism or Accidentally had done so or came across something and then became OBSESSED with using this Organisms DNA...  maybe as they saw this Precursor to the Deacon/Xenomorph as having something within their Genetics that is of GREAT Benefit to the Engineers or something they Felt could lead them to a Greater Next Stage of Evolution for their Species.

so i would ASSUME the Agenda and Plot was not that some Ancient Deacon like being was the LORD of the Engineers or their GOD, or that they had the Agenda to Create such Horrors from Day One.... but that at some point they DISCOVERED something related that they saw as having the POTENTIAL to Transform them to a Greater Stage of Evolution.

A deacon is the lowest ministerial rank so what's up with the Engineers on LV-223 worshipping it?  That is, it would seem like the earliest prototype for the xenomorph.

@BigDave: The Forbidden Tree, if growing eggs seems to be similar to Norse mythology's great ash, Ygdrassil, growing the gods from its pregnant branches after Ragnarok.

Look at Item sunk on crystal. IT looks like bone. Bone of the first Deacon or The One Choosen

I think its something to consider, we cant be 100% sure WHY they would have changed the Sacrificial Cup to this Crystal, it does have a SHAPE that does-not look like its a Randomly Cut or Broken Shard.

It appears to be Rounded, and as some have Speculated it looks like the Rear of a Xenomorphs Head but that does-not mean it is the SKULL of a Xenomorph or Related.

However a OPTION 3 is possible, which is that the Green Object does look Egg Shaped.

Maybe it could be some Ancient Fossilized Egg, however its shape is NOT 100% as Rounded/Curved.  However something i used to do in the Summer with one of my Dogs many years ago was to FREEZE a Egg and then Peal the SHELL away to reveal a Frozen Contents which would loose its Roundness a Little and be Transparent to a Degree.

If you kept this Frozen Inner Membrane and Yolk at a Cold Temperature it would NOT defrost, if this Green Object was similar and kept Cold by the Alter then it could have some Device/Probe that could Heat Up and acquire just a Small Amount of its Contents... if this Contents is what is the GOO or is what the Goo is Created from then that is a Option.

I would say this is Unlikely... i am not sure they are that Imaginative but this is the Idea i was going to RUN with as far as a IDEA to expand the Origins... which would introduce the ALIEN Poster Egg as the Source of the Goo.  And that a Giant Bio-Mechanical Turtle would Produce them ;)  But this idea is VERY Bizarre.

So going back to the ALTAR i think that Option 1 for the Sacrificial Cup was Certain/Likely but who knows where the Substance was Sourced.

A Source i had who claimed to have some Knowledge of Prometheus 2 as of October 2014 had claimed the Goo was Sourced from a Giant Obelisk that was neither Metal or Rock, that was Grown from the Ground, and Glowed Green. They claimed this acted as the Forbidden Tree from the Biblical Context  as in it would represent both the Fruit of Knowledge and Life.  And was used by the Engineers to obtain their Creation Tool.  They Claimed the Green Crystal was a SHARD of this that was STOLEN and that the PLOT was actually a bit of a DARK CRYSTAL rip off. In Context to Source of the Goo and the Engineers Fall.

Again until we see any of the Earlier Drafts by Paglen then this Information can not be taken with even a Pinch of Salt.

It was however Interesting.

There was some Concepts for a Earlier Prometheus Draft which appear to FIT with Alien Engineers.

These kind of could be similar to what the Source Explained as far as a Obelisk, however these Concepts when looking at HOW/WHERE they FIT with the earlier Drafts seem to FIT with whatever the Engineers had used to TERRA-FORM the Outpost.

So there is NO proof that this was the Source of the Goo, because at the Time of these Concepts we can assume they was for Alien Engineers/Genesis where the GOO was actually Nano-Scarabs at this point.

However Future Projects do at times USE some Unused Ideas or Concepts or at least expand on them.

So IF we ever get any Answers to WHERE the Goo came from and WHAT that Crystal was, then a Shard/Piece of some Larger Object does seem Plausible.

I like your option 2, BigDave. It’s intriguing to wonder where the green crystal (big or small) originally came from. To me it hints at an era before the Engineers came to prominence, maybe in a galaxy far far away and a long long long long time ago. Perhaps the handiwork of something we now glibly allude to by the name of “Lucifer”. Oram saw The Devil at work in David’s mind, but the Evil One has a long history.

Welcome Venusflyman

I think a lot of Confusion comes from the Various Sources of Information.

Indeed there is quite a bit to Contradict the David had Created the Xenomorph Plot in the Franchise, but then when we ACCEPT this and look at it again, then there are things that would NOW make sense.

But ALAS those who worked on the Movie had decided it would be a Interesting Curve-ball to make David as the Creator and Ridley Scott had confirmed this to be the case.  In Hindsight he should have Created a SUPERIOR version thats Aesthetically more different. (it is likely this was the Plan between 2013-2014).

Davids Lab Notes and Drawings with other stuff considered, does Indicate that he had Experimented and Cross-Hybrid various Organisms Traits with the Black Goo and Neomorph and used Dr Shaw's Reproductive System as the Last Part of the Puzzle to Create the Eggs.

The Novelization does suggest he had DISCOVERED the Egg and added a FEW other things, which do seem to be something that ALAN DEAN FOSTER had added himself and that was NOT in the Earlier Drafts that he had Worked from.

"that the engineer's worshipped their Lord who apparently was conceived from a Xenomorph type creature or that they worshipped the original Deacon and used their Lords blood as a way to seed other planets.?"

As far as i am aware this came from a FAN EDITED version of a Prometheus Draft, which is likely from a FAN who had added stuff because they FELT it made sense to the Mystery that Prometheus had left.

A lot has Evolved from Inception of the Concept, there is Quite a bit that has NEVER been Released that would Provide Answers (inc the FULL Pitch made by John Spaights Alien 01 The Master Narrative)

What we can Summarize from the later Drafts (Alien Engineers, and Alien Genesis) is the Engineers had some Creation Tool (Nano-Scarabs) and at some point they began to use this Creation/Hybridization Tool to Experiment with a Organism they LIKELY had encountered and they saw Potential with its DNA/Traits that they used the TOOL to Obtain its DNA and Create Various Hybrids from...  Which lead to Various Types of Xenomorph that they Intended to USE against their other Creations (Mankind).

Those Drafts did-not in detail show HOW this was done, but it is likely they had taken this IDEA/PROCESS and applied it to what David had been up to to make him Create the Xenomorph.

The Mural in Prometheus does indicate the Engineers were AWARE of or Created something that Predated the Xenomorph but it is NO indication that the Xenomorph had Pre-existed at this Point.    However comments by those working on the Project at the Time, had indicated these Experiments/Mural Predated the Xenomorph at this Time.

But at that TIME the Xenomorph was Conceived to STILL be something Created Thousands of Years ago.

I would think that regardless of the Sacrificial Cup or this Crystal i think despite the Replacement, i would ASSUME that the Purpose of the Object has to be similar.

The Sacrificial Cup we can Logically conclude one of the Following.

1) It was on the Altar as a form of Sacrifice, the Mural showing that they had used the Sacrificial Goo upon the Organism in the Mural to Break Down and Obtain its DNA and STORE this into the Urns.

2) The Blood/DNA of the Organism in the Mural is what the GOO which includes the Sacrificial Goo was made of, so they Obtain the GOO from this Organism.

When looking at the Original Drafts (Alien Engineers) then Option 1 is the more likely.

When looking at the Crystal and Considering the Above....

It is likely a Indication that this Crystal is the SOURCE of the GOO, and that it is OBTAINED from this Crystal.

This Crystal therefor could be either.

1) This could be like a Amber (think Jurassic Park) that contains some Element, DNA, Parasite or Blood that is the Source of the Black Goo.

2) The GOO is Sourced from some Larger Crystal that Contains Something, and this Temple has a Shard/Piece of this Placed on the ALTAR.

Looking at some Concepts from Prometheus, and what a Source had Alleged to me in 2014 (that Early Prometheus 2 was to conclude) then it would suggest Option 2

I think thats a Good Point... if we are looking in Context to the Franchise that our Mythos and Religious Accounts are based of Actual Events related to the Engineers, then we could assume the Deluge was caused by the Engineers.

Sodom and Gomorrah would therefor also be attributed to these Engineers but this Destruction is described as Fire and Brimstone (many people have looked at this in different ways/causes). But its mainly looked at Raining Down Fire and the Toxic Smoke of Sulfur.

It is a Punishment that GOD had Warned onto others before as Punishment for Sin and Turning Away from him.

When we are looking at Prometheus we need to understand the PLOT is that Actual Events regarding the Engineers become the Basis of Mythos and so there is a Degree of Fable and Interpretation.

so as a Example a Star Ship or even a Modern Fighter Plane could have been seen and described by Ancient People as Arriving on a Dragon or a Fiery Chariot.

So what i am saying is that Sodom and Gomorrah with regarding to the Fire and Brimstone could be a Interpretation of something else.

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Lot ran, his daughters close behind. “But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt”

Genesis 19:26

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What had happened is she watched the Sulfur fall down and Consume everything from the Cities, as she stayed to watch she became Consumed by this Sulfur and turned to a Pillar of Salt.

We could speculate if this could be a Interpretation of a Similar Effect to what we saw in Alien Covenant when it Rained Down Exploding Urns and a Cloud of Black Goo which would have looked to Ancient People like being Rained Down upon by a Exploding Volcano (Fire and Brimstone).   And being Turned into a Pillar of Salt, or to Stone by some Interpretations is what the END result of those Engineers was.

However this does-not mean this is what Happened... the Engineers could have had other forms of WEAPON some have Speculated that Sodom and Gomorrah could have be Destroyed by some ATOMIC Weapon. 

Such a Weapon would be a GOOD way to Destroy a City, but it would NOT be ideal for the Destruction of a WHOLE WORLD as the Nuclear Fall Out would Render a World as USELESS for quite some time. But you could come back in Thousands of Years and Start Again.

The GOO makes a much more better Weapon, especially looking at the Results of the Engineers City, or if they Rain Down the Sacrificial Goo instead... that would be the Perfect RESET Weapon ;)

I think that in the green rock, crystal are sunk the relic od the Deacon, Engineers lord. Part od his body maybe a bone. Engineers worshipped this relic. 

If the Engineers from LV-223 were preparing to launch 2,000 years earlier to drop bacteriological drums of shit on us, and had previously been equivalent to Watchers, one would assume the Flood described in the Bible was their handiwork also. But what did they use that time to punish us, or for that matter Sodom and Gomorrah?