Comments (Page 168)

Hey everyone I am new to this community so I do apologise if some of my points may have already been discussed as I'm sure they probably already have been considering the huge fandom surrounding this amazing franchise lol but I just want to highlight something.. doesn't the normalisation of alien Covenant describe the fact that David actually discovered an already existing alien Xenomorph egg? and due to the fact that he was not able to find a host or if in fact the egg eventually died as it shows that he already has an egg existing in his lab which he in fact sliced open and in the movie you see him pulling it apart but the scene was partially cut following that particular section..  maybe He retro engineered the exact same egg in order to create his own subspecies of engineered Xenomorph eggs (which for someone as intelligent as David would seem partially unlikely considering he is not creating anything from scratch at all, which goes against the notion of being an omnipotent creator if you are borrowing from pre-existing technology or bio-engineered aspects of an organism to literally just clone it or retrofit it or make a hybrid but maybe as people have stated in his hubris he simply just wanted to dabble his hands at creation.. I don't know) I guess I'm just trying to reconcile this but obviously this is fanciful and makes no sense unless more movies are made and Canon is finally explained properly with regards to leading up to the original alien movie. After watching Covenant the first time round I assumed that David was the original engineer with what we know to be the alien Xenomorph from the movies that preceded although from reading the normalisation it shows that the engineer's worshipped their Lord who apparently was conceived from a Xenomorph type creature or that they worshipped the original Deacon and used their Lords blood as a way to seed other planets.? I hope I have that correct I'm still trying to wrap my brains with regards to all the information that has been available over the years. Thank you for taking the time to read this if you have and thank you to the community. I love the atmosphere of creativity with regards to this particular niche aspect of movie history I find it fascinating and I find the whole concept of the Alien franchise amazing

I think that is a Interesting Idea by Leto

Certainly more Plausible with the Derelict due to its more Organic Look.

I did have a idea a while back on how to ADD another Layer to the Cake, i think i made a Topic on it, i at least did some replies about it.

I was looking at the World Turtle Mythos  and thought what if there was a GIANT MOTHER Ship that was like a Giant Bio-Mechanical Turtle of Sorts that would PRODUCE the Derelict Ships.

I certainly feel and especially before Alien Covenant we could have revealed that another Species was above the Engineers who used to GROW the Ships, and Enslave the Engineers to do their bidding before a Rebellion, Downfall and eventually the Engineers then Re-Engineering this other Species Technology.

You could have some GIANT Ship that would be where these Derelicts are Grown if you would. By Giant i mean like MASSIVE.... maybe Death Star sized or Larger.

The Head like Shape above the Door that leads to the Big Head Room, and above the Mural do remind me a bit of TURTLE SKULLS.

A Retracted Turtles Head does also look like the Vulva Openings on the Derelict etc ;)

I also thought these Bio-Mechanical Turtle Ships could also Produce Eggs...  and i mean Eggs as in the ALIEN Poster and that these can be used for Different Things... include Source of the Black Goo, but they could also be used to EXPLODE and Create Worlds etc.....  more like mixing the COSMIC EGG with WORLD TURTLE meets HP Lovecraft meets HR Giger ;)

I think we can all come up with some ALIEN ways to have expanded on the Origins....  Certainly ALIEN ships with Brains is a Interesting One ;)

Be it the Engineers Tore the Brains Out or Re-engineered those Ships... thats also something that sounds interesting and very HP Lovecraft too ;)

@Leto

Thats a Great Observation ;)

I had discussed on here quite a long while back now about if WATER  was important to the effects of the Pathogen, so its Nice to see this brought up again ;)

Spaights Scarabs were Airborne, but while its the Basis for what became the Goo, with Lindeloffs draft the Engineers Test the Water if i remember right... so it was IMPORTANT.

With Holloway it was not quite so easy to see what was Happening, what we do see is that he had a DRINK that was Spiked and so again maybe this Liquid which would have had a High % of Water is what made the Pathogen able to Create what ever then infected Dr Shaw.

We did see the Eye-Worm, which was a Puzzle but the Props that went unused seemed to show that Holloway would produce more of these.

However we never saw this on screen and what we did see was similar to the Sacrificial Engineer at a Slower Rate (or so it seemed via the Substance running through the Veins).  Even if we considered these Props it would seem the Worms are the First Stage of what had started to become of Holloway after he Collapsed in the LV-223 Complex.

Ridley Scott i think said the same thing that was happening to Holloway had happened to the Engineers on LV-223 and i do recall he 100% said that Fifield would have ENDED up exactly the same as the Engineer Head so his Expanding Cranium would have Exploded at Some Point.

Amount of Goo Exposure would also account for differences of Infections..

I noticed you also made the Holloway + Alcohol (likely 80-85% Water), and also i the Neomorphs too were from the Spores which likely came from Fungi/Mold that had grown near Water and so likely the Goo had entered a Water Supply running down the Mountain, through the Ship and into the Stream.

Overall i think you take on the Goo is Logical, i think its a Plausible Explanation ;)

The Engineers on LV-223 the Suits did seem Hollow so they looked like they Exploded but nothing remained, so that could be said about the Sacrificial Engineer...  ONE of the Big Questions was always HOW did they get Infected?

You would assume they would have Safety Precautions and are used to the Pathogen as far as working with it. The Space Jockey Suits likely Function more as a kind of Bio-Hazard Suit.   And a Contaminated Water Supply could be a Answer to a Infection, especially if Sabotage was involved ;)

Another Interesting thing was the URNS that had been Activated in Prometheus, they seemed to LEAK a Oil Like Substance, that appeared different a bit to the Sacrificial Goo and when David had opened a Urn and taken a Ampoule Out.  What it seemed like was that a Smaller Amount of Dark Dirt/Sand Particles were Suspended within a Clear Liquid.   The URNS maybe have Multiple Components something triggered the Contents of the Urns to Dissolve together and Turn it into the Oil Like Substance.

David had said regarding the Bombardment that the Pathogen Atomizers with the Air, which could explain WHY it also effected the Engineers in the way it did.  The Ship maybe Weaponizes the Urns a Certain way compared to HOW they had Leaked in Prometheus (likely also after the Crash in Alien Covenant).

I think we also have to remember that David said its a Form of Radical A.I which basically makes it a McGuffin to do what ever they want it to do ;)

I do find the GOO as something Interesting and something it would be Good to know more about, it does seem very Plausible that a Number of Things can Effect how the Pathogen would behave.

Water indeed being something Clearly to NOT over look.

My Topic was to suggest maybe a WHAT IF there was some Device/Safety Precaution that could have been Activated to account for the Desiccated Engineers, there is however NO real Evidence to suggest this is the Case.

I think its interesting to discus if they had Safety Precautions though, i would assume the SUITS are one part of that.   Also the Big Head Room seemed to somehow HALT the Infection before the Room was Contaminated.  Once that Door was open something had Affected the Room, but we see that Engineers had Entered the Room in the Past as they was RUNNING towards it.  The Body of the Headless Engineer appeared Hollow, yet the Helmet Contained a Head that was Preserved.

A Pressurized Environment could Answer it, hence the Need for the Engineers to have their Suits. (Deleted Shots indicate they could Survive outside without them), but a Pressurized Environment could remove 100% Oxygen and Hence the Need for the Suits.   But then it could also be the Prometheus Crew without Helmets that affected the Room (CO2 maybe) which is Hence why the Engineers have the Suits?

I would like to thank you for your input, it certainly makes sense as are indeed things i had considered too.

"A giant bio-brain is growing in the central part of the ship. And the observation dome is the eye. Engineers catch these ships and remove the brain (a kind of lobotomy). At the place where the bio-brain used to be, they mount the Pilot Chair."

The above ideas are fabulous Leto.  

Sincerely, that truly sounds alien and hard to imagine how it would look with ancient highly technical Engineers capturing and overwhelming a massive biomechanical organism.  That is well though out.

Awesome.  I wan't two servings of something like that.

1. I think we forgot about one important component - the water. The first stage of process with the Sacrifice Engineer is very similar to what happened with:
1) the inhabitants of the Planet 4.
2) the head of an engineer on the LV-223.
3) the corpses of engineers on the LV-223.
4) Charlie Holloway.

They all started (at different speeds) to decay and explode.

There is one difference - the second stage - The Sacrifice Engineer fell into the water; and DNA reconstruction and the formation of new cells occurred in water. Without water, the Engineers of Planet 4/LV-223 (and Charlie for sure too) just exploded. And eventually they just withered.

2. The second important component - the filter. The Sacrifice Engineer could be some kind of filter for a pathogen. Well, the filter-creature is just a life form that interacts with the pathogen. Engineers, humans, worms, etc...

3. The third important component - the dosage. The Sacrifice Engineer drank a small glass of pathogen and (don't forget about water) that’s why it worked. But Engineers of Planet 4 were literally covered in pathogen + lack of water = they burned as filters.

David said: "it either kills or spawns a hybrid form". I think it depends on the dosage + water:

1) Small dosage + water = decay, explosion and DNA reconstruction. (The Sacrificial Engineer)

3) Big dosage - water = decay, explosion and spawn of hybrid form. (Hammerpede, strange creatures from the Engineers of Planet 4).

4) ? dosage - water = only decay and explosion. (Engineers LV-223, Enginner's head)

5) Mid dosage - water = slow decay and explosion. (Fifield)

Questions:

a) Origin of Neomoph spores? Dosage ?, water confirmed.

b) Origin of Trilobite? Small dosage - water + alcohol as component?

I get what you mean hox...good point.  It was a throw out into the open for us to debate.  Good stuff....I didn't catch that the cat wasn't around when they woke up.

"Who is to say Jonesy was not a synth cat?"

Great question dk and the introduction of synthetic animals in the novel Alien: Covenant Origins was one of the most interesting parts of the book.  Alien: Containment gives us a look at that as well, below.

The texture of the surfaces of the buildings in the Messings' art is such a close match to Beksinski that one might think it was an inspiration.  Great comparison BigDave and a great excuse to look at Steve Messings' art again.

Some of Beksinski Aesthetic (from the image you shared) did seem to be what Planet 4 would have looked like from some of the Early Concepts.  (Certainly  Steve Messings)

Regarding the Pathogen.... i think it depends on what it really does.

When looking at the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus we see the Engineer Consumes the Substance and his Body Breaks Down/Apart...  he is deconstructed Molecule by Molecule.

Then we see his Chains of DNA begin to Repair themselves.. then we see Single Cells Evolving to Multiple and Replicating.

This Indicates that the Sacrificial Scene has likely done of of TWO things.

1) The Substance breaks Down the Engineers DNA into Particles/Molecules if you would from his ONE Body he breaks down and Reforms into Millions and Millions of Cells and these Cells become the FIRST signs of LIFE or at least a Basic Life that then Evolves.

2) These Millions of Millions of Particles if you would go on to INFECT some Basic Life that is already on the Planet and Evolves this Life into a Complex Life. So the Sacrificial Scene is a Catalyst that causes Basic Life to Evolve to Complex and this Complex Life carries the Engineers DNA.

The Planet in Prometheus had signs of Plant Life, Algae and Moss and so OPTION 2 was most likely... when also looking at Jon Spaights draft Alien Engineers and HOW the Nano-Scarabs worked.. then again OPTION 2 seems the Likely Outcome of the Sacrificial Scene.

Considering that....

Could we ASSUME that if you FILLED the Urns up with the Sacrificial Goo and Dropped them down on a World then maybe it would Break Down all the Organic Life on a World and Basically send the World back to the Basic Stage of like the Sacrificial Scene?

If this is a Good Assumption then i think it makes just as GOOD a Biological Weapon.   You can in effect Return a Worlds Population back to a Evolutionary point that was Many Millions of Years prior...

Even if we just look at what Happened to the Sacrificial Engineer, he was NO threat once that Consumed Pathogen had Infected him.... he was in EFFECT... KILLED.

If you rained down Millions of Gallons of the Sacrificial Goo onto a City you can Safely Assume the Same Fate would await those who are in contact with the Pathogen.

Therefor the Sacrificial Goo makes a BETTER Weapon.. one that you just wait a While and then you can Return and the Life-Forms that posed a Threat are GONE...

As the Engineers are Genetic Gardeners of Space and Seeding Worlds and Creation seems to be more there thing as opposed to Creating Horrors like the Neomorph/Deacon.

Then the Sacrificial Goo makes a BETTER TOOL to Reset a World...   AND... if you are NOT so Happy with the DNA of Life on Side World... then you can surely Sacrifice/Collect the DNA of a Desired Organism and Store that in the Urns and Bombard that so this DNA then Evolves the Life on said World.

This is HOW i saw the GOO from Prometheus, it is also appears the WAY that Jon Spaights had intended it.

If this is the CASE then the Engineers would NOT be so Concerned about a Returning SEEDING ship. (Originally there was NO Pebble Ship but it was to be a Croissant Ship) so if these Ships are a UPGRADE to the Seeding Ships then a Returning Ship would be Welcomes especially if its considered a Honor, Right of Passage and a kind of  Immortalization that being CHOSEN and used as a Sacrifice would bring.

However such a TOOL can be Miss-Used..  if you came across some Organism that you liked the Traits of, or you wanted to Experiment and Create something that you then become Obsessed with and see THIS Organism as the Perfect DNA to be Seeding Worlds with instead of Engineer DNA.

Then that could indeed Lead us to the LV-223 Perversion of the Creation/Evolutionary Tool ;)

Looking at the Video then the DRONE came across about 7ft Tall bare in mind it was not Standing Completely Upright However, Certainly would not be 8ft 3" as indicated.

The Warrior looked about 6ft7-8" Mark but we have to Consider that Ripley was more closer to the Screen and so the Warrior would in effect be just under 7ft.

By the Time we get to the Runner it appears to be 6ft 2" Ball Park but again Perspective is hard to judge as Ripley appears to Walk up to 6" closer to the Screen

But then we should not Nit-Pick i think a lot of Effort went into the Video and should be Applauded.

The Drone in ALIEN was 7ft 2" when Fully Suited, i would say that Xenomorphs can Vary between 6ft 8" and 7ft 6"

"When I first saw the Prometheus trailer, I thought the Engineer was Dr. Holloway after the mutagen had run it's course"

LOL yeah i remember that Speculation ;)

The First Trailer was Good it did-not give too much away ;) i remember looking at it over and over and Speculating on here what is going on.   And indeed in Part i felt the theory that this was Holloway was Plausible at the Time as we do see the LATER SHOT of him (2:08) and you could think the Shot from (0:16) as being the same Person, but it seems the Same Thing was going on.   However i read into the "king has his reign" as something IMPORTANT and so when looking at the Viral Website and Virtue of the Name DAVID then i was lead to a PINOCCHIO moment when considering ALL of the Trailer... i had discussed on here and thought we would see some Crew Infected with the Pathogen, and then David would INFECT himself and become the Space Jockey we see in the Trailer... in part i Concluded this from this SHOT.

As this certainly did not look like a 7ft being NEVER-MIND a 12 Foot+ Space Jockey, but from this Perspective then Ian Whyte looked around 6ft something Mark ;)

So i thought right we are gonna see the STUFF that Mutates people, then it will do something different to David to make him PART-ORGANIC and then the Octopus like Fetus of Dr Shaw will INFECT our David as he is in the Chair and this becomes our SPACE JOCKEY and the Chest Buster will be a Queen and LAY the Eggs.... That in Part was what i was Drawn to at that time and i FELT it made sense but then SUCKED because it would mean the Xenomorph was NOT Ancient and the Space Jockey was just a ROBOT lol.

However upon seeing the 2nd Trailer my thoughts turned to this being Peter Weyland instead ;) a little...  but also by this time looking at the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods and Big Head Statue i did think this was the Character in the Opening Shot... but i had wondered if the Character who was attacking Dr Shaw was Weyland as he Evolves himself into that BEING...

Again this was purely down to HOW SMALL they looked in the Shot i put as a image above, and the Pilot Chair Scene they never looked as Big as the Space Jockey and so i thought our Space Jockey in this Movie was either gonna be David or Weyland ;)

HOW WRONG was I ;)  as we got to the other Trailers you could make out Davids Head on the Floor, and the Engineer appeared to be over 7ft so at this point i had concluded it was NOT going to be David and maybe it could not have been Weyland but then i was not 100% sure and the being still did-not look to be LARGE enough to be a Space Jockey or the Giant Like beings from our Ancient Mythology etc.

But alas it turned out our Engineers/Space Jockey were 7-8ft Tall ;)

I do recall the Excitement of the First TWO Trailers and Anticipation for the Prequel, i came away not 100% Satisfied but after watching it Twice more i came to Appreciate it and what it SET UP for any Sequels.  I did not see a Problem with HOW it had kept some Mystery and offered us some NEW Mysteries but then i was hopeful these NEW Ones would be answered in a Sequel. 

I remember i was last as Excited (prior to Prometheus) about a Prequel with The Thing 2011 and Star Wars Phantom Menace and both of them Disappointed me much more ;)

The painting above from Beksinski is a shockingly-relevant example of what we are discussing when comparing it to what happened on Planet 4.

Beksinski could work as concept art for the prequels....

"Ridley Scott tell us that the Engineers use it to CLEAN UP places, and they would Return Hundreds of Years latter to then be able to START AGAIN. This would be a BIT ODD if the Pathogen goes on to Create Hybrid Horrors like the Neomorph."

Great point on the Neomorph...they are so very uncosmopolitan.  Any reasonable, civilized Engineer knows how difficult it is to enforce the requirement that Neomorphs must wear a cloak while in town.     

Director Commentary

There are a couple of items to also note in regards to Ridley Scott...in the director's commentary if you haven't listened yet in Alien: Covenant.  

He mentions that "The six elders of the entire civilization" when showing the large heads in the temple on Planet 4 and the mutagen is referred to as "filth" as "this filth, kills the planet in months, years to clean, evolve, and start again.."

@Thoughts_Dreams

You raise some Valid Points, i certainly think that when you leave it SO LONG with a Franchise before a Sequel then your always going to find it HARD to compete with the Original, and Reboots often Face the Same Problem...   With ALIEN one of the things that Stood Out even after the Sequels, AVP and Countless times we see Xenomorphs in Comics and Games was that for the Most Part (apart from in a few Comics) their Origin and that of the Space Jockey was a MYSTERY

I think you could have Disney wait and then REBOOT the Prequels and Answers and even then its UNLIKELY they would get it RIGHT too.

Regarding the Prequels we have something that had Evolved over Time, there was Valid Reasons for why we had the Engineers Plot, there was a Good Reason to then give us Prometheus, as a Mystery is Good for some but for others they expected SOLID Answers.

We need to not overlook other peoples influence on what we got though, FOX Executives, Hill and Giler etc... as i do seem to think that AC was NOT what Ridley Scott wanted, but if he got his way then i still think we would have had a Prequel Series based more about David than the Xenomorph, but its likely he would have been Responsible for something Different and leaving the Xenomorph Origin as a Mystery.... but instead we now have it appear that he is the Creator.... but we have covered this OVER and OVER ;)

I think its Interesting to Discus what we interpreted before the Prequels and what we would have liked to have seen.  I think there is SCOPE to introduce something more ALIEN and LOVECRAFTIAN but i doubt we will see that.

As its stands then it is TOO Connected to Mankind as far as the Space Jockey Connection and NOW the Xenomorph which i think prior to the Prequels are TWO things that we would have imagined as being FAR FAR from Connected to Humans and Earth.   I think its easy to blame Ridley Scott, but we have to remember that David Giler and Walter Hill have more Influence and they Introduced the A.I to O'Bannons Story (which i think was a Great Idea)  they introduced the Conspiracy/Agenda of a Company wanting to USE the Xenomorph... which is a Big Theme of the Franchise.   But we have to remember had Hill and Giler got their Draft 100% made, then it was the Company that had Engineered the Xenomorph on LV-426 which i think would have taken away the ENIGMA of the Organism... which essentially the AC Plot has repeated :(

When I first saw the Prometheus trailer, I thought the Engineer was Dr. Holloway after the mutagen had run it's course.

The Trilobite is still very impressive and I believe gives a glimpse into other organisms we may see other than the bipeds spawning from the mutagen.

Regardless of canon and Wikis- If Ripley was about 6 feet tall, the only creatures' heights that look the most accurate are the Runner and Deacon. 

As the films show, she doesn't move with the egg sack.  She detaches.

Diesektor:

Thanks for posting this, it was interesting to see what you have written. I enjoy fan-writing since it shows how many ideas that the fan community has and how everyone have their own idea of what could have happened.

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That was interesting although the queen looks a bit ridiculous. How would she be able to move with that huge egg-sack and do not get me started about the Newborn.

It is nice to see a new thread, good work.

About the prequels, if we look at how they have turned out I wish that they should never have been released at all. They do not stand a chance against the first three.

When I am finished watching Alien the question is among others – who was the pilot and how did he get that cargo with eggs. There is a mystery there that is very interesting but that is also difficult to live up to when you try to give it an answer. The problem is that Alien itself is such a good movie so any attempt to answer the cargo will likely turn out to be a disappointment. I like the idea of the Engineers but I do not like that they have pointed to David as the eventual creator of the monster since it makes it too close to humans. While I understand the theme it becomes a disappointment from a story kind of view.

"By attempting to ANSWER in part at least the Mystery, they was NEVER going to reveal Answers that would Please everyone…"

I agree but they could sure have come up with a better answer than to show us that the monster was a result of something that we have created. I kind of understand why they did that but from a story point of view it was a huge disappointment. This is what happens when you let someone that does not understand good writing affect the story.

"That for many has NOW become a Worse kind of Secret (Revelation)."

Yeah because it is shit, crappy story writing. If this is what they thought was good writing and something that many would appreciate it has turned it into somewhat of a joke. Look, if they thought that AR was bad actually the idea that David created it makes at least certain parts of AR look better. At least it has not made important aspects of the franchise into a laughing stock but to be fair I think that AC as a whole is better than AR.

"Should it have remained a Secret?"

I think so, but since they have not finished them I would say that it could be wise to erase them from the official time-line and maybe let someone with better ideas and better writing re-make them. The probability that they will throw more crap at the franchise than the prequels have done is small.

"What kind of Ideas/Answers did you Imagine in your Mind before the Prequels?"

I am not sure but at least it was something that was far more alien than what we have been given and it was not about a stupid fucking robot. Probably that the pilot was from a sort of civilization far away that had a deadly cargo but I did not know what his mission was or how the eggs got there. So many possibilities but unfortunately they let Scott affect the story and we have what we have.

hey man, just seen this post - massive thanks from myself and teh band for posting and writing about us - if any one would like to check out teh music you can listen to us here https://www.youtube.com/user/diesektor666/videos?view_as=subscriber we have lots of tracks all with alien style theme and concept 

"The ship also produces Black Goo. Actually, that's why the Engineers catch them. Black Goo - the most important thing in the universe. The source of life"

I think something like this could have worked, especially if we never had Alien Covenant, as at this point we certainly could have Speculated that the Juggernauts are Reverse Engineered from the Derelict Ship.

There was a lot that was ALIEN about the First Movie, with ALIENS and the Queen revealed as a Egg Layer it did kind of replace the Egg Morph but thats not to say a Queen does-not make sense.

Looking at the Egg Morph and the Black Goo, then we dont really know HOW the Egg Morph happens, we know that the Xenomorph must do something to the Human Host, but we dont know the Process of this.  However when looking at the Black Goo then you could speculate the Xenomorph could Infect a Host with a substance that is similar to the Black Goo that then Re-Writes the Hosts DNA and Mutates it into a Xenomorph Egg. 

This Mural by HR Giger is Very Interesting as to me it seemed to indicate the Xenomorph is Genetically if you would connected to the Derelict, and that the SHIP would Produce some kind of WORM like Parasite that would then Evolve/Grow into a Egg.

The Substance the Engineers use in Alien Engineers are Nano-Scarabs, which are replaced with the Black Goo but at a Microbiological Level the Black Goo could be TINY Nano Worm like Parasites.

We have some indication of this in Prometheus (especially unused Props) and some work on a Earlier Version of a Prometheus Sequel.

So if they had introduced the Derelict as a more Older Ship that Produced the Parasitic Pathogen that can produce Eggs, i think that could have worked and we can speculate on WHAT is needed for the Ship to Produce the Substance in the First Place and surely come up with some Horrific and very ALIEN ways that this occurs.

But it is Extremely Unlikely we would get anything revealed like that, and we have to accept a Derelict is the same as a Juggernaught and are a Manufactured/Engineered creation of the Engineers.

I guess they could give us another LAYER above the Engineers and introduce something more Lovecraftian and Surreal but i doubt we would ever see such a thing.

I think between O'Bannon's idea and what went on in HR Gigers Mind could have given us a ALIEN/LOVECRAFT revelation of the whole Derelict, Eggs and Pilot.

But that Ship has sailed a long time ago.... with the Prequels.

Watched the Video its a Good Effort the Deacon seems to be Smaller a little and the Neomorph is a bit taller than it is.

Nice video. The Queen always seemed taller than 15'- maybe due to the huge egg sack it was attached to. For some reason, the egg sack here appears to be attached to the queen's back.

There are a FEW things missing.

Like the 10ft Genetically Engineered Predator from The Predator.

I had speculated a LONG while ago that IF the Deacon was Humanoid to a Large Degree and would thus GROW at a Rate that a Mammal would then our Deacon would like Grow to 12-15ft Ball Park when its ADULT.

We then got Fire and Stone Comics where the Concept Work seemed to indicate the Engineer Born Deacon would have Grown to become 10-12ft Tall

If we look at the Source Material.... STARBEAST

What we had was that the Xenomorph was a Juvenile Stage of a ALIEN Organism that were Ancient and Advanced somewhat.

The Space Jockey was just another unrelated Alien Race that had came across the remains of this LOST ALIEN Civilization the Egg/Spore Stage of their Life-Cycle.  This unsuspecting Giant Race had suffered the same Fate that the incoming Human Crew had suffered.

The in effect Space Jockey had decided to take some of the Eggs/Spores to their Ship for Study and became infected.

This had EVOLVED with ALIEN that the Space Jockey Race and Eggs were NOW connected. The Connection was not really shown, but Ridley Scott had indicated that the Eggs were a Biological Weapon that the Space Jockey was carrying on his Ship.... we had NO reason for WHY or WHERE he was going.

The Virtue that there was a Aesthetically Connection between the Ship and Cargo meant they had to be connected as i described in by previous Reply.   The Xenomorph either came after the Derelict Technology, or the Derelict Technology came from the Xenomorph (Re-Engineering etc) or they both were Created together.

This is all we could Conclude before the Prequels...

HR Giger however had some Interesting Comments and Thoughts on the Xenomorph and Derelict.

He seemed to indicate that the Ship was Genetically if you would Connected to the Eggs, the Ship would actually Create the Eggs.  And the Ship was likely GROWN.

He felt the Pilot was Permanently Connected to the Chair. A Slave to his Ship.

He felt the Xenomorph was a Cyborg it was Part Organic and Part Mechanical which he also claimed the Derelict was.

His other Concept works did indicate that the Space Jockey was some Humanoid Species that would Self-Sacrifice themselves to allow for the Procreation of the Xenomorph, and along with the Xenomorph being connected to the Ship in his Concepts.. this seemed to Indicate that in his MIND the Space Jockey Race are just Humanoids that would be USED to Spread the Xenomorph around the Galaxy...

For what Benefit this Humanoid Race gained was anyone's Guess.

So we never really got Answers... but when you look at Starbeast and HR Gigers ideas then i think there was a much more ALIEN and Lovecraftian Answer to the MYSTERY ;)

The Ship Producing the Eggs was interesting... exploring what it Needed to be able to do so could have been Sinister, Horrific and Lovecraftian.

But ALAS.

I think that there was many ways that the MYSTERY could have been Answered, but what we END up with is something which would NOT please everyone....  If you are NOT careful then the Answers could take away the Mystique of the Mystery.

What Prometheus had done was to begin to Answer who the Engineers were, they gave us this Chariots of the God Plot, Creation, Visitation, Knowledge and Rebellion. 

As at this TIME they felt that you did not have to Continue with Answers to ALIEN and continue about Xenomorphs and that you can LEAVE those a Mystery, with Prometheus just providing some Clues but still leaving it Ambiguous.

Prior to Prometheus what we had was this ALIEN Ship, with what we assume was the Pilot who had been Obviously Infected with the same Cargo that Kane had.

The Pilot was Fused to the Chair, like Technologically Connected and so it was Highly likely that its RACE had Created the Ship.... or the Ship was Created Specifically for the Space Jockey.

The Cargo was something that was Equally Deadly to the Space Jockey as it was any other Unsuspecting Life Form.  The Xenomorph was like a Amalgamation of Organic and Mechanical Aesthetic, which the Derelict Ship seemed to also SHARE...   Surely NOT by a Coincidence there had to be a Connection.

So there was some Connection between the Ship, the Pilot and the Cargo.   Which for me left me to Ponder (i am talking 20+ Years ago.

1) The Xenomorph Organism was a Natural Organism well something the Space Jockey had Discovered and had USED this Organism to Evolve/Create Technology from, maybe the Organism had Multiple Uses for the Space Jockey.

2) The Space Jockey Race had Created the Bio-Mechanical Ship and the Eggs are a Engineered Organism that is likely used in some kind of Conflict (Biological Warfare).

3) There is some other Race that for some reason has a USE/NEED for those Eggs and they Created the Ship and they had either Created or Enslaved the Space Jockey Race to use the Derelict Ship to Transport those Eggs... for what reason we can only Speculate...  was it for Warfare? for some Technological Reason? or for some other reason to Procreate the Organism?

For me the Shared Aesthetic was NO Coincidence, and so for me Option 1 did not seem so likely, if it was then the Space Jockey Race had been Transporting and Using the Xenomorph for Thousands maybe Millions of Years.  There was NO-WAY the Ship had recently just came across the Eggs.

So i was drawn more to Option 2 or Option 3

The Prequels did begin in Order to give us Answers but even at the Early Stage it was not so SPOON FED... at some point they decided you DID-NOT have to have Xenomorphs or even SHOW where they came from and HOW they got onto the Derelict.  They felt that discovering WHO the Space Jockey was is more Important as NO-ONE had covered them and if the Xenomorph is after all just a Engineered Bio-Weapon then surely the Space Jockey Story was more Important to tell.

What it did do is indicated some Connections that left some Mystery, what we should have been able to Connect was that the Xenomorph is related to what ever they was doing on LV-223 many Thousands of Years ago.

Which should have Narrowed it down to TWO Connections.

a) The Xenomorph was ONE result of the LV-223 Experiments or Outbreak, either by Design or Accident.

b) The Xenomorph was the BASIS that had led to the LV-223 Experiments that eventually lead to the Outbreak.

Alien Engineers seemed to indicate a THIN LINE between the TWO in which something related to the Xenomorph was surely the Basis of Experiments of which the Xenomorph was but ONE eventual Outcome.

But this was NOT really Spoon Fed in Prometheus.

Prometheus did leave another Mystery which was details of exactly what LV-223 was for and what Happened on LV-223 before the Engineers abandoned the Place.  We also never knew 100% how LV-223 connected to the Eggs and which came First?

Never-mind HOW/WHEN the Derelict event Happened and HOW the Eggs got on the Ship but surely before Prometheus this was not ROCKET SCIENCE ;)

It seemed the Intentions of the sequels would have to NOT really give much away about the Xenomorph, its Origin or a Detailed Explanation of Events from when the Engineers First Set Foot on LV-223 to the Outbreak/Space Jockey event.

So all we had at this POINT in regards to the Mystery was.

The Space Jockey are Connected and Likely Engineers who are a Humanoid Race who had played a Role in the Creation and Evolution of Mankind (likely among other Worlds/Races) a Race of would be Gods who go around Seeding Life and Visiting and Evolving Worlds, both Genetically and Technologically but without giving us a reason WHY.

At some point this Race or a Faction of them had began to Experiment on LV-223 with Experiments that would lead to Horrors that appear to have some Aesthetic Connection to the Xenomorph without giving us the Exact Connection.

The Reason for this is left a little Ambiguous unless we go by Ridley Scotts comments which would indicate that those Engineers had decided to Create Biological Warfare for Protection and to deal with preserved Threats of which Mankind was deemed one.  

But there was that Ambiguity where you could not rule out that some Engineers had become Obsessed with the Xenomorph or its Ancestor and had Experimented to maybe Perfect themselves or use its DNA to Evolve Life as they saw it as more PERFECT than their own Humanoid DNA.

But then we had arrived at Alien Covenant and the Revelations in that... which was just continuing the Themes that was more Present in Prometheus and so it likely took the MYSTERY and Answer that was connected to those LV-223 Engineers and Xenomorph and decided to make it that a Sub-Creation by Mankind had Created the Xenomorph instead... which maybe was something NOT far from the Truth... just in regards to HOW those LV-223 Engineers had done this instead....

And so in CLOSING...

What we had was a Ancient Humanoid Ancestor Race that had Created Mankind, that then had started to Conduct Experiments on stuff on LV-223 and maybe themselves, which likely resulted in our Super Engineers and other Horrors on LV-223. 

This answers our Space Jockey Race and Derelict Ships.

Then looking for this Godlike Creators we have some Humans Turn up at this Place of Experimentation with one of our own ENGINEERED Creations.... the Android David who then uses the Engineers Experiments to go and Continue and Evolve what they was working on and THUS give us the Xenomorph.

Space Jockey as 7-8ft Tall Humanoids who we are descended from via Experimentation and Seeding of their DNA.

Xenomorph that is the Creation of a Android who is not Happy with his Role/Treatment by his Creators Humans who wished to use the Engineers Experiments to Create his OWN Creation...

I am sure these are NOT what most would have expected the Answers to be some 10+ Years ago.

Thats why i think in HINDSIGHT the Mystery and Prequels should NOT have happened as then we have our own Imaginations of the Mystery.

Ridley Scott chose to Answer these because he LOST all control of what became of a ALIEN 2 and he surely knew that Eventually after a ALIEN 5, ALIEN 6 a AVP 3 and 4.... that Eventually he knew that someone would ANSWER the Mystery from ALIEN.

So he wanted to make sure he was a PART of this so that he could have some Input onto the Mystery and especially the Space Jockey Revelations.

hox

Great ideas!

I also have ideas that the Derelicts were a kind of biomechanical life forms. A giant bio-brain is growing in the central part of the ship. And the observation dome is the eye. Engineers catch these ships and remove the brain (a kind of lobotomy). At the place where the bio-brain used to be, they mount the Pilot Chair.

The ship also produces Black Goo. Actually, that's why the Engineers catch them. Black Goo - the most important thing in the universe. The source of life.

But sometimes something goes wrong. The appearance of ovomorphs on Derelict (and the strange impregnation of pilot) is a kind of ship's immune system that responded to the invasion of the Engineers.

All secrets will be revealed. It's unavoidable.

But, I agree with dk.

>>>It seems best to speculate than a franchise to churn out movies and prequels that basically leave more questions.

No answers is better than mystery only for mystery. I call it - forced mystery. For example:

Alien has a good mystery stuff. Who is Space Jockey? What kind of cargo is he transporting? Where did he get this deadly cargo? What is this cargo for? Where did he come from?

This is a background mystery. You can speculate and at the same time have a solid film with a finished story! Why? Because these issues are not directly related to the plot of the film. You can answer these questions in another movie if you want. But. Do. Not. Try. To. Create. Forced. Questions!

Another example:

Prometheus has a forced mystery stuff. The film was supposed to answer all the questions. It was positioned as a film with answers. I specifically emphasize this. Because we can that why did you expect Aliens in this film? The film was never positioned like a movie about Aliens. It's true. You may also ask - why this film is not a prequel? The film was never positioned like a prequel. It's true. But the truth is also that the film was positioned as a film created for the answers. You cannot argue against this. Because this is how the film was presented to the public. Point of sale, if you will.

Prometheus sets the whole plot point about this ... and doesn't give answers. Just because Ridley wanted a mystery.

It all depends on what you mean:

>>>i think ULTIMATELY they should have KEPT the Entire thing a MYSTERY!

If you mean some entire mystery about Alien Universe - it can be speculated.

But if you mean those secrets that Ridley forcedly left in Prometheus, then they should definitely be answered. Because it was a promise. It was an idea. That was the plot point.

It seems best to speculate than a franchise to churn out movies and prequels that basically leave more questions. Off shoot stuff is fine, but if a way forward cannot be forged, it should end- with no cash grabbing prequels.

hox brings up an excellent idea but it would likely be too much for theaters or too niche to be profitable.

I think that the way to forge ahead is to continue after Resurrection and it doesn't have to have Ripley involved. Prequels haven't done much for the franchise.

woow.

Personally, I'm glad that the secret is out - at least in part. The back story to the Engineers' universe has hardly been tapped and there is plenty of scope for wonder (and horror) in that realm. What we're missing is imagination and creativity. Unfortunately, I don't think that Hollywood/Disney would be able to stomach a movie that is utterly alien in its nature, because audiences wouldn't be keen. As for myself, the weirder and more alien the premise, the better!

For a long time, I imagined that the Derelict Egg Chamber was once flooded with water, and had been parasitised by a water-borne monster.

Then, looking more closely at the vaginal openings of the ship, I wondered if the ships were partly organic and could reproduce sexually - perhaps with a male counterpart. The life story of something that wild could make an interesting movie on its own.

I mean, just off the top of my head... a pregnant ship lands on an outpost and is approached by humans. It fires defensive darts from its "skin" that tag the intruders. Later, their guts explode in a blizzard of whirling, lashing, arachnid forms. That would be fun. 

I think looking at the Potential for their being some other Safety Device then we know the Pathogen infects Living Organisms, well the MEAT if you would.  Then maybe something that would EFFECT all Living Matter in a Radius and basically just Solidify the Genetic Building Blocks in effect Desiccating Living Matter could also STOP the Pathogen from Spreading and doing what it was supposed to do.

Thats not to say this is what Happened, but something that could do this would be a IDEAL Safety Precaution.

I suppose we have to look at what the Pathogen was intended to do, we have Ridley Scott tell us that the Engineers use it to CLEAN UP places, and they would Return Hundreds of Years latter to then be able to START AGAIN.  This would be a BIT ODD if the Pathogen goes on to Create Hybrid Horrors like the Neomorph.

"sometimes to create, one must first destroy" this comment by David could mean the Pathogen is USED to Clean Up a World, or it could be the Intention is to Replace One Organism with another.

But another Explanation for those Engineers could be the Pathogen can be Weaponized and Programed to Infect only Certain Genomes and Spread and Eventually instead of Changing the DNA/Genome it just changes the Genetic Material into a Solid State.   This would indeed make it a IDEAL Weapon to CLEAN UP a World.

The Neomorph's are a different matter but i believe they likely came from a Spillage of Urns after the CRASH and so the Pathogen that Leaked from these was not Weaponized/Programed and so its Effects are more similar to what we saw in Prometheus (Hammerpedes).

Interesting you bring up the SHIELD as this is something i was also going to mention.  When the Bombardment Starts the Urns do seem to STOP at a Certain Height and Break and Spread Out, and you could be Forgiven for thinking they have such hit some kind of DOME.

Such as like the TV Series (Under the Dome)

So we cant rule out that Planet 4 had Similar, something to Consider is that Paradise well the Garden of Eden that is in Paradise is a Walled City.   There is NO better way to Control and Monitor a Population than to have them Confined to a Single Area/City much like the City (Bregna) from Aeon Flux

So maybe a Shield was NOT really created to Protect against a Bombardment because the Engineers were NEVER concerned about their own kind UNLEASHING the Pathogen on their own kind, and they were so Naive to think that NO other Species would ever be able to arrive at the Place they Create/Store this Substance.

But the Shield was a Good way to Prevent anyone leaving or entering the City.  Which maybe the Scorpion Ship was in Control of and ONCE this Ship had Crashed then the Barrier can not be Erected and also any Engineer Ships are Stranded.  So the Scorpion Docking Ship acts as a Form of Border Control and Watches over the City like the Relical from Aeon Flux maybe?

The Planet 4 inhabitants' awareness of the pathogen is interesting. It appears that the shield could have been meant to protect the populace against it in case of such an event that David brought. The shield may have been effective at the time it was created but maybe the pathogen had evolved to penetrate the shield and yield unpredictable results on the populace.

That  Beksinski painting is an interesting find. There is a lot to look at and speculate about.

yeah . . .but cool tho . . .id invite him to meet my parents if they was alive.

Not so much a catch as a throw, @Ingeniero. But you will find that a fair amount of my carefully crafted message is accurate :-)

I Raptus Did you mean Sulaco, not Nostromo?

That Roci example has bent antennae ... bad packaging destroying stuff :P

Another thing when looking at the Franchise are WHY they all Followed the Path of Ripley (i know its because she was the Main Character) but what i am talking about is from the Perspective of the Company.

The Companies must have had a Good Reason for ONLY wanting to Pursue the Xenomorph Specific to the Derelict, or there is NOTHING to obtain from Planet 4, LV-223 or any World that David goes to Next.

We have to assume that NOTHING was viable from LV-426 after the Destruction of Hadleys Hope which is WHY the USM Scientist resorted to Ripleys DNA.

However a Interesting Question to Ponder is CAN you Obtain Xenomorph DNA from a Dead Face Hugger?

Surely the Team from the USCSS Patna  could have obtained one of the Face Huggers from the Sulaco EEV Incident (includes the ONE that lead to the Xenomorph in Alien 3).

If you could obtain a Xenomorph via infected Ripley DNA then surely you could from a Face Hugger Specimen?