New Replies (Page 169)

I think when we look at the Reason for WHY we was scheduled to be DESTROYED its another Open Question to a degree, YES at first it in part was NO Coincidence to the Crucifixion of Christ, but then he had said that was TOO on the Nose and that Christ was a Emissary.

If we are trying to look at it in Context to Prometheus etc, then its Pretty Obvious that Jesus is not depicted as 7-8ft and Bald ;) and so likely he was a Hybrid or a Human that was TAUGHT the ways of the Engineers, and sent down on their Behalf.

If you have Created a Sub-Species and wish to Interact with them and Guide them and teach then Limited Knowledge, maybe in Time you would find it Better for some Reason to SEND down beings that look more ALIKE the Humans, than sending down 8ft Members of your Not Quite Human Race.

So there could be MANY such Emissaries, well certainly more than just the ONE.  And it would seem as far as the Engineers that they had send down these Emissaries to try and Guide us to a Path or Behavior that the Engineers felt was Appropriate because we had started to Behave in Ways that Offended them, and turning out to be a Civilization doing things and seeing the Engineers in ways that the Engineers had not DEEMED.

We have to assume these Emissaries are Considered Good as far as the Engineers would see them, but then if we consider Prophets and the like, such as Jesus in this Context are seen as doing GOOD for Mankind, then surely the THINGS they are trying to Change in Mankind are NOT considered to be BAD/EVIL.

But after we had Disobeyed the Engineers or/and Offended them and KILLED the Emissaries that were Sent Down to put us back on Track, then this resulted in the ORDER to CULL our Species if you would...

This would have to be seen as these Engineers doing something that is Beneficial to their Species/Ways/Order, but that would seem Wicked and a Overreaction to Mankind.

Again these Subjects are something that can have Multiple Ways to explain and Explore them. 

What we do know is the Engineers or Emissaries had Visited Mankind across various Periods and Places in Time for at least 35'000 Years.  I think we have to Consider the Prometheus Mythos quite a bit too, rather than be looking at Biblical Accounts by Virtue of the Space Jesus Angle ;)

So maybe we had some Engineers or Watchers if you would who are TASKED with keeping a EYE over us, maybe Teaching us Limited Stuff.... we could WONDER had some of these began to Pass-On Forbidden Knowledge?

Could these Watchers if you would then have been Banished and even Punished for the HARM they had Caused... and the Hierarchy decided to send down Emissaries who looked more Human to TRY and put things RIGHT?

Again trying to Figure Out who the Good/Bad Guys are is something thats Interesting but something that may be HARD to get to the Bottom of.

I will say the Planet 4 Engineers never came across to me as a Malevolent Species.  But then Mankind may not be considered likewise... but they may be considered likewise if we looked at Blade Runner as far as how the Sentient Replicants would feel about their Purpose and then how Mankind saw them as a Threat and wanted to CULL them.

Thats not saying Blade Runner and Prometheus are Connected, but just that when looking at the Sub-Creation, Purpose and then attempt to CULL the Rebellion, is something that is maybe at Play on Multiple Levels as far as the Engineers and their Creations ;)

Well this is a TOPIC that has No Real Answers because it Potentially has MANY ;) it really is Very Open for Debate and its certainly part of a reason i abandoned making my own Prometheus Sequels (stories) due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of.

Maybe we should-not be looking too LITERAL, but certainly that many Mythos and Connections had arose from our Interaction with the Engineers.   I was going to START a Topic today that may Conflict with this ONE.. well in Part what it covered can be covered on this Topic.

I think we need to go BACK to the Beginning if you would, the Sacrificial Scene seemed to indicate and RS and others comments also Implied that the Seeding of Worlds was done with Good Benevolent Intentions, or certainly what are Beneficial to the Engineers.

And yet Ridley Scott then said that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's he also referred to them as like the Fallen Angels.  And i have said a Number of Times we maybe need to look at what he meant by this!

Fallen as in Demons as in EVIL, Wicked and Cruel? which is what some look at THE DEVIL as being. Well having them being called Aggressive £!"$£"% and depicting them as having NO LOVE for Mankind could FIT that Bill.

However we also have to Consider that Fallen is also what becomes of those who go AGAINST the Hierarchy (or GOD) if you would.  In this Context then you look at the Devil as being a being, a Creation that was Perfect, Sentient to a Degree, who then began to Question as to WHY he and the other Angels should BOW down and Serve God and be Servants... he was Very Arrogant and had Pride in his Abilities which he felt he was being Limited.  And so his Rebellion against Gods Rule is what was his First Fall. Does this alone make someone Wicked?

With Mankind you can look at Lucifer as either Deliberately Corrupting Mankind to SPITE his old Master GOD and show that his NEW Creation could be made to Disobey the LORD too.  Or you could see it that Lucifer simply saw that Mankind was Created to be another NEW Subservient Species that would be HELD BACK by the Knowledge that GOD would Forbid them to have... would this be Considered a Wicked Act?  As far as GODS Purpose and Agenda then it would appear to be a GREAT disobeying with severe Ramifications.   And so Considered BAD by GOD.

I mention the above because i FEEL they are a KEY to what is going on with the Various Engineers we see ;)

With Prometheus we had the ELDERS who appeared to look like the Engineer but just more Frail and Old... but as this SCENE was removed (Elders) it maybe means we cant assume the Hierarchy is intended to look as those Elders did.

Ridley Scott had mentioned he removed the Scene as he did-not want to give too much away, and that he did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie.  This could imply that those Elders would either be the Hierarchy/Gods or that  he was going to replace them with something that would be the Hierarchy/Gods.

When talking about Prometheus 2 he said that those beings in Prometheus where the FALLEN ANGELS, which implies they are either Wicked/Evil and Deceitful or they had Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy. It was likely something between those TWO.  

He then had also mentioned that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings.. who are NOT really GODS! Not in the Traditional Sense and that these beings are FAR from Benevolent.  This could mean that they would be seen as more Malevolent, but this could just be HOW we would see them as far as their Intentions with us. (are Mankind Evil because we Experiment on Guinea Pigs and Apes).

If we try and Combine what was said by RS, then it could imply that the World that David and Dr Shaw would arrive at (Paradise) maybe contained beings who were DIFFERENT to our Prometheus Engineers, but who were still NOT really GODS and would be seen as FAR from Benevolent as far as how they would see and act towards Mankind.

This maybe does-not mean the Engineers are Malevolent but that as far as we are Concerned we would Consider them as such.  By that i think its easy to Consider the Replicants, would you Consider what the Blade Runners were Tasked with as being Malevolent?   If say we see Walter Models become Sentient like David, maybe NOT all of them would be Wicked to Humans... but they would pose a Concern to Mankind and a great RECALL well a CULLING of them would be required.. would that make Mankind Evil?

So its a Tricky Question when dealing with the Engineers, as its such a OPEN kind of Plot.

But its maybe one that makes more Sense IF maybe we look at the Prometheus Engineers more like Lucifer and David and Replicants.  

When trying to figure out WHO really are the Bad Guys i think its Very Open... there could be ONE Wicked Faction but then they all could be GOOD/BAD depending on how we look at them and MANKIND.

@Nathan Adler

Certainly the Term Deacon had been brought up because of how the one Concept that they decided to go with did look like it had a pointed HAT of a Bishop, so i dont know why they never just called it a Bishop ;)

A Deacon as far as Religious is a Servant of the Church (also a Rank that they take up on their Progression to a Higher Rank within a Church), and so as you mentioned as far as Ministerial Rank if we try and apply that a bit Literally to the Organism then it must be some kind of Servant, i think you could end up interpreting this in many ways though ;)

Certainly seems the Deacon as per say is a Organism that Predates the Xenomorph (even prior to the release if AC).  The Conclusion i reach is that the Engineers had been Experimenting with Various Hybrids that are related and Predate the likes of the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph and so after a lot of Experiments they had achieved something they deemed as a Masterpiece and they then made that MURAL to Celebrate what they had achieved.  This Organism being to the Engineers, what the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant was for David... the FRUITS of their Labor/Experiments.

Its interesting to bring up Norse Mythology, i think one of the Interesting things with Prometheus was to WONDER how they would eventually/loosely tie in the Various Mythos and Religions to the Engineers Agenda/History.

And Certainly YGDRASSIL is interesting as its like a Central Point to the Cosmology of the Norse Mythos, Branching off to the 9 Worlds of the Mythology.

Going back to the Alien 01 The Master Narrative then the Engineers were attempting to Transcend as beings of Energy to traverse and see the Ten Dimensional Multi-Verse, which if we apply the  YGDRASSIL then this could be seen as what Connects  those Dimensions the Root, the Branches the Bridge.

But then this is a bit Off Topic.

We can only Speculate that the Alter Contained upon it something that was either a Source to allow them to Create Life, or something that they was using to Achieve a Different Form of Life/Evolution.

@Michart

What i see is a Indentation as indicated in the image below, it does not seem to be any kind of Body Part of any Organism, but this does-not mean that it Contains something inside that is related to the Deacon or other Organism.  Such as Ancient Organisms that are Crystallized in Amber.

I think as i said before that Regardless in the SHIFT from the Sacrificial Bowl to the Green Crystal, i cant see the SHIFT from the Purpose of the ALTAR being changed Dramatically, but that ASSUMES that it had a Purpose and was not just their just to look COOL.

There is that Draft that mentions the Blood of their Lord etc, but this is 95% Certainly just a FANS addition/edit.

Things do Change, but i feel we can still take Clues from Spaights Earlier Work such as his earlier Drafts... ONE massive Clue would be his Alien 01 The Master Narrative if we ever got the FULL version of this i think it could be used to UNLOCK some of the Mystery/Secrets.

What it seemed to indicate are the Engineers were quite like Mankind back Millions of Years ago, as they continued to Evolve, and make Scientific Breakthroughs, they eventually Evolved Culturally beyond the Needs for Entertainment like Music and Arts, they had Pursued the AGENDA to Genetically Enhance themselves Physically and Mentally which lead to Great Advancements that eventually made them Sterile.  They had the Ultimate Agenda of Evolving/Transcending themselves BEYOND a Physical Form and thus a kind of Immortality.

But ALAS we cant take this Plot as being what is the MAIN reason for the LV-223 Connection in Prometheus. We dont have the FULL version of  Alien 01 The Master Narrative, from what we have it seems to FIT more with the Engineers being a Ancient Race trying to Evolve themselves to Divinity, choosing to Create Life in their Image to Pass on their Knowledge for the Time when they Eventually Reach that Godhead. 

So it was more about Creation, Seeding, Knowledge etc than the Pursuit of Horrors like the Xenomorph... until a Certain Point they felt they Needed Such Horrors to Protect themselves from their Creations.

But as i said such a PLOT may not be relevant as of Alien Covenant, i think when looking back at Prometheus the indication seems to be that the SACRIFICIAL Scene seems to be a Important thing that Predates the Infatuation with the Deacon and the like.

Looking at Alien Engineers and Alien Genesis it appears likewise that the Engineers Agenda was Creation, Passing on Knowledge until a Certain Point in Time they instead became Obsessed with such Horrors relating to the Xenomorph.

So trying to get back to the OT... in context, then i think the Sacrificial Cup or Crystal was likely the Source of a Powerful Tool that can be used to Create/Evolve Life, that at some point those Engineers began to TEST this with another Organism or Accidentally had done so or came across something and then became OBSESSED with using this Organisms DNA...  maybe as they saw this Precursor to the Deacon/Xenomorph as having something within their Genetics that is of GREAT Benefit to the Engineers or something they Felt could lead them to a Greater Next Stage of Evolution for their Species.

so i would ASSUME the Agenda and Plot was not that some Ancient Deacon like being was the LORD of the Engineers or their GOD, or that they had the Agenda to Create such Horrors from Day One.... but that at some point they DISCOVERED something related that they saw as having the POTENTIAL to Transform them to a Greater Stage of Evolution.

A deacon is the lowest ministerial rank so what's up with the Engineers on LV-223 worshipping it?  That is, it would seem like the earliest prototype for the xenomorph.

@BigDave: The Forbidden Tree, if growing eggs seems to be similar to Norse mythology's great ash, Ygdrassil, growing the gods from its pregnant branches after Ragnarok.

Look at Item sunk on crystal. IT looks like bone. Bone of the first Deacon or The One Choosen

I think its something to consider, we cant be 100% sure WHY they would have changed the Sacrificial Cup to this Crystal, it does have a SHAPE that does-not look like its a Randomly Cut or Broken Shard.

It appears to be Rounded, and as some have Speculated it looks like the Rear of a Xenomorphs Head but that does-not mean it is the SKULL of a Xenomorph or Related.

However a OPTION 3 is possible, which is that the Green Object does look Egg Shaped.

Maybe it could be some Ancient Fossilized Egg, however its shape is NOT 100% as Rounded/Curved.  However something i used to do in the Summer with one of my Dogs many years ago was to FREEZE a Egg and then Peal the SHELL away to reveal a Frozen Contents which would loose its Roundness a Little and be Transparent to a Degree.

If you kept this Frozen Inner Membrane and Yolk at a Cold Temperature it would NOT defrost, if this Green Object was similar and kept Cold by the Alter then it could have some Device/Probe that could Heat Up and acquire just a Small Amount of its Contents... if this Contents is what is the GOO or is what the Goo is Created from then that is a Option.

I would say this is Unlikely... i am not sure they are that Imaginative but this is the Idea i was going to RUN with as far as a IDEA to expand the Origins... which would introduce the ALIEN Poster Egg as the Source of the Goo.  And that a Giant Bio-Mechanical Turtle would Produce them ;)  But this idea is VERY Bizarre.

So going back to the ALTAR i think that Option 1 for the Sacrificial Cup was Certain/Likely but who knows where the Substance was Sourced.

A Source i had who claimed to have some Knowledge of Prometheus 2 as of October 2014 had claimed the Goo was Sourced from a Giant Obelisk that was neither Metal or Rock, that was Grown from the Ground, and Glowed Green. They claimed this acted as the Forbidden Tree from the Biblical Context  as in it would represent both the Fruit of Knowledge and Life.  And was used by the Engineers to obtain their Creation Tool.  They Claimed the Green Crystal was a SHARD of this that was STOLEN and that the PLOT was actually a bit of a DARK CRYSTAL rip off. In Context to Source of the Goo and the Engineers Fall.

Again until we see any of the Earlier Drafts by Paglen then this Information can not be taken with even a Pinch of Salt.

It was however Interesting.

There was some Concepts for a Earlier Prometheus Draft which appear to FIT with Alien Engineers.

These kind of could be similar to what the Source Explained as far as a Obelisk, however these Concepts when looking at HOW/WHERE they FIT with the earlier Drafts seem to FIT with whatever the Engineers had used to TERRA-FORM the Outpost.

So there is NO proof that this was the Source of the Goo, because at the Time of these Concepts we can assume they was for Alien Engineers/Genesis where the GOO was actually Nano-Scarabs at this point.

However Future Projects do at times USE some Unused Ideas or Concepts or at least expand on them.

So IF we ever get any Answers to WHERE the Goo came from and WHAT that Crystal was, then a Shard/Piece of some Larger Object does seem Plausible.

I like your option 2, BigDave. It’s intriguing to wonder where the green crystal (big or small) originally came from. To me it hints at an era before the Engineers came to prominence, maybe in a galaxy far far away and a long long long long time ago. Perhaps the handiwork of something we now glibly allude to by the name of “Lucifer”. Oram saw The Devil at work in David’s mind, but the Evil One has a long history.

Welcome Venusflyman

I think a lot of Confusion comes from the Various Sources of Information.

Indeed there is quite a bit to Contradict the David had Created the Xenomorph Plot in the Franchise, but then when we ACCEPT this and look at it again, then there are things that would NOW make sense.

But ALAS those who worked on the Movie had decided it would be a Interesting Curve-ball to make David as the Creator and Ridley Scott had confirmed this to be the case.  In Hindsight he should have Created a SUPERIOR version thats Aesthetically more different. (it is likely this was the Plan between 2013-2014).

Davids Lab Notes and Drawings with other stuff considered, does Indicate that he had Experimented and Cross-Hybrid various Organisms Traits with the Black Goo and Neomorph and used Dr Shaw's Reproductive System as the Last Part of the Puzzle to Create the Eggs.

The Novelization does suggest he had DISCOVERED the Egg and added a FEW other things, which do seem to be something that ALAN DEAN FOSTER had added himself and that was NOT in the Earlier Drafts that he had Worked from.

"that the engineer's worshipped their Lord who apparently was conceived from a Xenomorph type creature or that they worshipped the original Deacon and used their Lords blood as a way to seed other planets.?"

As far as i am aware this came from a FAN EDITED version of a Prometheus Draft, which is likely from a FAN who had added stuff because they FELT it made sense to the Mystery that Prometheus had left.

A lot has Evolved from Inception of the Concept, there is Quite a bit that has NEVER been Released that would Provide Answers (inc the FULL Pitch made by John Spaights Alien 01 The Master Narrative)

What we can Summarize from the later Drafts (Alien Engineers, and Alien Genesis) is the Engineers had some Creation Tool (Nano-Scarabs) and at some point they began to use this Creation/Hybridization Tool to Experiment with a Organism they LIKELY had encountered and they saw Potential with its DNA/Traits that they used the TOOL to Obtain its DNA and Create Various Hybrids from...  Which lead to Various Types of Xenomorph that they Intended to USE against their other Creations (Mankind).

Those Drafts did-not in detail show HOW this was done, but it is likely they had taken this IDEA/PROCESS and applied it to what David had been up to to make him Create the Xenomorph.

The Mural in Prometheus does indicate the Engineers were AWARE of or Created something that Predated the Xenomorph but it is NO indication that the Xenomorph had Pre-existed at this Point.    However comments by those working on the Project at the Time, had indicated these Experiments/Mural Predated the Xenomorph at this Time.

But at that TIME the Xenomorph was Conceived to STILL be something Created Thousands of Years ago.

I would think that regardless of the Sacrificial Cup or this Crystal i think despite the Replacement, i would ASSUME that the Purpose of the Object has to be similar.

The Sacrificial Cup we can Logically conclude one of the Following.

1) It was on the Altar as a form of Sacrifice, the Mural showing that they had used the Sacrificial Goo upon the Organism in the Mural to Break Down and Obtain its DNA and STORE this into the Urns.

2) The Blood/DNA of the Organism in the Mural is what the GOO which includes the Sacrificial Goo was made of, so they Obtain the GOO from this Organism.

When looking at the Original Drafts (Alien Engineers) then Option 1 is the more likely.

When looking at the Crystal and Considering the Above....

It is likely a Indication that this Crystal is the SOURCE of the GOO, and that it is OBTAINED from this Crystal.

This Crystal therefor could be either.

1) This could be like a Amber (think Jurassic Park) that contains some Element, DNA, Parasite or Blood that is the Source of the Black Goo.

2) The GOO is Sourced from some Larger Crystal that Contains Something, and this Temple has a Shard/Piece of this Placed on the ALTAR.

Looking at some Concepts from Prometheus, and what a Source had Alleged to me in 2014 (that Early Prometheus 2 was to conclude) then it would suggest Option 2

I think thats a Good Point... if we are looking in Context to the Franchise that our Mythos and Religious Accounts are based of Actual Events related to the Engineers, then we could assume the Deluge was caused by the Engineers.

Sodom and Gomorrah would therefor also be attributed to these Engineers but this Destruction is described as Fire and Brimstone (many people have looked at this in different ways/causes). But its mainly looked at Raining Down Fire and the Toxic Smoke of Sulfur.

It is a Punishment that GOD had Warned onto others before as Punishment for Sin and Turning Away from him.

When we are looking at Prometheus we need to understand the PLOT is that Actual Events regarding the Engineers become the Basis of Mythos and so there is a Degree of Fable and Interpretation.

so as a Example a Star Ship or even a Modern Fighter Plane could have been seen and described by Ancient People as Arriving on a Dragon or a Fiery Chariot.

So what i am saying is that Sodom and Gomorrah with regarding to the Fire and Brimstone could be a Interpretation of something else.

=================================

Lot ran, his daughters close behind. “But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt”

Genesis 19:26

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What had happened is she watched the Sulfur fall down and Consume everything from the Cities, as she stayed to watch she became Consumed by this Sulfur and turned to a Pillar of Salt.

We could speculate if this could be a Interpretation of a Similar Effect to what we saw in Alien Covenant when it Rained Down Exploding Urns and a Cloud of Black Goo which would have looked to Ancient People like being Rained Down upon by a Exploding Volcano (Fire and Brimstone).   And being Turned into a Pillar of Salt, or to Stone by some Interpretations is what the END result of those Engineers was.

However this does-not mean this is what Happened... the Engineers could have had other forms of WEAPON some have Speculated that Sodom and Gomorrah could have be Destroyed by some ATOMIC Weapon. 

Such a Weapon would be a GOOD way to Destroy a City, but it would NOT be ideal for the Destruction of a WHOLE WORLD as the Nuclear Fall Out would Render a World as USELESS for quite some time. But you could come back in Thousands of Years and Start Again.

The GOO makes a much more better Weapon, especially looking at the Results of the Engineers City, or if they Rain Down the Sacrificial Goo instead... that would be the Perfect RESET Weapon ;)

I think that in the green rock, crystal are sunk the relic od the Deacon, Engineers lord. Part od his body maybe a bone. Engineers worshipped this relic. 

If the Engineers from LV-223 were preparing to launch 2,000 years earlier to drop bacteriological drums of shit on us, and had previously been equivalent to Watchers, one would assume the Flood described in the Bible was their handiwork also. But what did they use that time to punish us, or for that matter Sodom and Gomorrah?

Hey everyone I am new to this community so I do apologise if some of my points may have already been discussed as I'm sure they probably already have been considering the huge fandom surrounding this amazing franchise lol but I just want to highlight something.. doesn't the normalisation of alien Covenant describe the fact that David actually discovered an already existing alien Xenomorph egg? and due to the fact that he was not able to find a host or if in fact the egg eventually died as it shows that he already has an egg existing in his lab which he in fact sliced open and in the movie you see him pulling it apart but the scene was partially cut following that particular section..  maybe He retro engineered the exact same egg in order to create his own subspecies of engineered Xenomorph eggs (which for someone as intelligent as David would seem partially unlikely considering he is not creating anything from scratch at all, which goes against the notion of being an omnipotent creator if you are borrowing from pre-existing technology or bio-engineered aspects of an organism to literally just clone it or retrofit it or make a hybrid but maybe as people have stated in his hubris he simply just wanted to dabble his hands at creation.. I don't know) I guess I'm just trying to reconcile this but obviously this is fanciful and makes no sense unless more movies are made and Canon is finally explained properly with regards to leading up to the original alien movie. After watching Covenant the first time round I assumed that David was the original engineer with what we know to be the alien Xenomorph from the movies that preceded although from reading the normalisation it shows that the engineer's worshipped their Lord who apparently was conceived from a Xenomorph type creature or that they worshipped the original Deacon and used their Lords blood as a way to seed other planets.? I hope I have that correct I'm still trying to wrap my brains with regards to all the information that has been available over the years. Thank you for taking the time to read this if you have and thank you to the community. I love the atmosphere of creativity with regards to this particular niche aspect of movie history I find it fascinating and I find the whole concept of the Alien franchise amazing

I think that is a Interesting Idea by Leto

Certainly more Plausible with the Derelict due to its more Organic Look.

I did have a idea a while back on how to ADD another Layer to the Cake, i think i made a Topic on it, i at least did some replies about it.

I was looking at the World Turtle Mythos  and thought what if there was a GIANT MOTHER Ship that was like a Giant Bio-Mechanical Turtle of Sorts that would PRODUCE the Derelict Ships.

I certainly feel and especially before Alien Covenant we could have revealed that another Species was above the Engineers who used to GROW the Ships, and Enslave the Engineers to do their bidding before a Rebellion, Downfall and eventually the Engineers then Re-Engineering this other Species Technology.

You could have some GIANT Ship that would be where these Derelicts are Grown if you would. By Giant i mean like MASSIVE.... maybe Death Star sized or Larger.

The Head like Shape above the Door that leads to the Big Head Room, and above the Mural do remind me a bit of TURTLE SKULLS.

A Retracted Turtles Head does also look like the Vulva Openings on the Derelict etc ;)

I also thought these Bio-Mechanical Turtle Ships could also Produce Eggs...  and i mean Eggs as in the ALIEN Poster and that these can be used for Different Things... include Source of the Black Goo, but they could also be used to EXPLODE and Create Worlds etc.....  more like mixing the COSMIC EGG with WORLD TURTLE meets HP Lovecraft meets HR Giger ;)

I think we can all come up with some ALIEN ways to have expanded on the Origins....  Certainly ALIEN ships with Brains is a Interesting One ;)

Be it the Engineers Tore the Brains Out or Re-engineered those Ships... thats also something that sounds interesting and very HP Lovecraft too ;)

@Leto

Thats a Great Observation ;)

I had discussed on here quite a long while back now about if WATER  was important to the effects of the Pathogen, so its Nice to see this brought up again ;)

Spaights Scarabs were Airborne, but while its the Basis for what became the Goo, with Lindeloffs draft the Engineers Test the Water if i remember right... so it was IMPORTANT.

With Holloway it was not quite so easy to see what was Happening, what we do see is that he had a DRINK that was Spiked and so again maybe this Liquid which would have had a High % of Water is what made the Pathogen able to Create what ever then infected Dr Shaw.

We did see the Eye-Worm, which was a Puzzle but the Props that went unused seemed to show that Holloway would produce more of these.

However we never saw this on screen and what we did see was similar to the Sacrificial Engineer at a Slower Rate (or so it seemed via the Substance running through the Veins).  Even if we considered these Props it would seem the Worms are the First Stage of what had started to become of Holloway after he Collapsed in the LV-223 Complex.

Ridley Scott i think said the same thing that was happening to Holloway had happened to the Engineers on LV-223 and i do recall he 100% said that Fifield would have ENDED up exactly the same as the Engineer Head so his Expanding Cranium would have Exploded at Some Point.

Amount of Goo Exposure would also account for differences of Infections..

I noticed you also made the Holloway + Alcohol (likely 80-85% Water), and also i the Neomorphs too were from the Spores which likely came from Fungi/Mold that had grown near Water and so likely the Goo had entered a Water Supply running down the Mountain, through the Ship and into the Stream.

Overall i think you take on the Goo is Logical, i think its a Plausible Explanation ;)

The Engineers on LV-223 the Suits did seem Hollow so they looked like they Exploded but nothing remained, so that could be said about the Sacrificial Engineer...  ONE of the Big Questions was always HOW did they get Infected?

You would assume they would have Safety Precautions and are used to the Pathogen as far as working with it. The Space Jockey Suits likely Function more as a kind of Bio-Hazard Suit.   And a Contaminated Water Supply could be a Answer to a Infection, especially if Sabotage was involved ;)

Another Interesting thing was the URNS that had been Activated in Prometheus, they seemed to LEAK a Oil Like Substance, that appeared different a bit to the Sacrificial Goo and when David had opened a Urn and taken a Ampoule Out.  What it seemed like was that a Smaller Amount of Dark Dirt/Sand Particles were Suspended within a Clear Liquid.   The URNS maybe have Multiple Components something triggered the Contents of the Urns to Dissolve together and Turn it into the Oil Like Substance.

David had said regarding the Bombardment that the Pathogen Atomizers with the Air, which could explain WHY it also effected the Engineers in the way it did.  The Ship maybe Weaponizes the Urns a Certain way compared to HOW they had Leaked in Prometheus (likely also after the Crash in Alien Covenant).

I think we also have to remember that David said its a Form of Radical A.I which basically makes it a McGuffin to do what ever they want it to do ;)

I do find the GOO as something Interesting and something it would be Good to know more about, it does seem very Plausible that a Number of Things can Effect how the Pathogen would behave.

Water indeed being something Clearly to NOT over look.

My Topic was to suggest maybe a WHAT IF there was some Device/Safety Precaution that could have been Activated to account for the Desiccated Engineers, there is however NO real Evidence to suggest this is the Case.

I think its interesting to discus if they had Safety Precautions though, i would assume the SUITS are one part of that.   Also the Big Head Room seemed to somehow HALT the Infection before the Room was Contaminated.  Once that Door was open something had Affected the Room, but we see that Engineers had Entered the Room in the Past as they was RUNNING towards it.  The Body of the Headless Engineer appeared Hollow, yet the Helmet Contained a Head that was Preserved.

A Pressurized Environment could Answer it, hence the Need for the Engineers to have their Suits. (Deleted Shots indicate they could Survive outside without them), but a Pressurized Environment could remove 100% Oxygen and Hence the Need for the Suits.   But then it could also be the Prometheus Crew without Helmets that affected the Room (CO2 maybe) which is Hence why the Engineers have the Suits?

I would like to thank you for your input, it certainly makes sense as are indeed things i had considered too.

"A giant bio-brain is growing in the central part of the ship. And the observation dome is the eye. Engineers catch these ships and remove the brain (a kind of lobotomy). At the place where the bio-brain used to be, they mount the Pilot Chair."

The above ideas are fabulous Leto.  

Sincerely, that truly sounds alien and hard to imagine how it would look with ancient highly technical Engineers capturing and overwhelming a massive biomechanical organism.  That is well though out.

Awesome.  I wan't two servings of something like that.

1. I think we forgot about one important component - the water. The first stage of process with the Sacrifice Engineer is very similar to what happened with:
1) the inhabitants of the Planet 4.
2) the head of an engineer on the LV-223.
3) the corpses of engineers on the LV-223.
4) Charlie Holloway.

They all started (at different speeds) to decay and explode.

There is one difference - the second stage - The Sacrifice Engineer fell into the water; and DNA reconstruction and the formation of new cells occurred in water. Without water, the Engineers of Planet 4/LV-223 (and Charlie for sure too) just exploded. And eventually they just withered.

2. The second important component - the filter. The Sacrifice Engineer could be some kind of filter for a pathogen. Well, the filter-creature is just a life form that interacts with the pathogen. Engineers, humans, worms, etc...

3. The third important component - the dosage. The Sacrifice Engineer drank a small glass of pathogen and (don't forget about water) that’s why it worked. But Engineers of Planet 4 were literally covered in pathogen + lack of water = they burned as filters.

David said: "it either kills or spawns a hybrid form". I think it depends on the dosage + water:

1) Small dosage + water = decay, explosion and DNA reconstruction. (The Sacrificial Engineer)

3) Big dosage - water = decay, explosion and spawn of hybrid form. (Hammerpede, strange creatures from the Engineers of Planet 4).

4) ? dosage - water = only decay and explosion. (Engineers LV-223, Enginner's head)

5) Mid dosage - water = slow decay and explosion. (Fifield)

Questions:

a) Origin of Neomoph spores? Dosage ?, water confirmed.

b) Origin of Trilobite? Small dosage - water + alcohol as component?

I get what you mean hox...good point.  It was a throw out into the open for us to debate.  Good stuff....I didn't catch that the cat wasn't around when they woke up.

"Who is to say Jonesy was not a synth cat?"

Great question dk and the introduction of synthetic animals in the novel Alien: Covenant Origins was one of the most interesting parts of the book.  Alien: Containment gives us a look at that as well, below.

The texture of the surfaces of the buildings in the Messings' art is such a close match to Beksinski that one might think it was an inspiration.  Great comparison BigDave and a great excuse to look at Steve Messings' art again.

Some of Beksinski Aesthetic (from the image you shared) did seem to be what Planet 4 would have looked like from some of the Early Concepts.  (Certainly  Steve Messings)

Regarding the Pathogen.... i think it depends on what it really does.

When looking at the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus we see the Engineer Consumes the Substance and his Body Breaks Down/Apart...  he is deconstructed Molecule by Molecule.

Then we see his Chains of DNA begin to Repair themselves.. then we see Single Cells Evolving to Multiple and Replicating.

This Indicates that the Sacrificial Scene has likely done of of TWO things.

1) The Substance breaks Down the Engineers DNA into Particles/Molecules if you would from his ONE Body he breaks down and Reforms into Millions and Millions of Cells and these Cells become the FIRST signs of LIFE or at least a Basic Life that then Evolves.

2) These Millions of Millions of Particles if you would go on to INFECT some Basic Life that is already on the Planet and Evolves this Life into a Complex Life. So the Sacrificial Scene is a Catalyst that causes Basic Life to Evolve to Complex and this Complex Life carries the Engineers DNA.

The Planet in Prometheus had signs of Plant Life, Algae and Moss and so OPTION 2 was most likely... when also looking at Jon Spaights draft Alien Engineers and HOW the Nano-Scarabs worked.. then again OPTION 2 seems the Likely Outcome of the Sacrificial Scene.

Considering that....

Could we ASSUME that if you FILLED the Urns up with the Sacrificial Goo and Dropped them down on a World then maybe it would Break Down all the Organic Life on a World and Basically send the World back to the Basic Stage of like the Sacrificial Scene?

If this is a Good Assumption then i think it makes just as GOOD a Biological Weapon.   You can in effect Return a Worlds Population back to a Evolutionary point that was Many Millions of Years prior...

Even if we just look at what Happened to the Sacrificial Engineer, he was NO threat once that Consumed Pathogen had Infected him.... he was in EFFECT... KILLED.

If you rained down Millions of Gallons of the Sacrificial Goo onto a City you can Safely Assume the Same Fate would await those who are in contact with the Pathogen.

Therefor the Sacrificial Goo makes a BETTER Weapon.. one that you just wait a While and then you can Return and the Life-Forms that posed a Threat are GONE...

As the Engineers are Genetic Gardeners of Space and Seeding Worlds and Creation seems to be more there thing as opposed to Creating Horrors like the Neomorph/Deacon.

Then the Sacrificial Goo makes a BETTER TOOL to Reset a World...   AND... if you are NOT so Happy with the DNA of Life on Side World... then you can surely Sacrifice/Collect the DNA of a Desired Organism and Store that in the Urns and Bombard that so this DNA then Evolves the Life on said World.

This is HOW i saw the GOO from Prometheus, it is also appears the WAY that Jon Spaights had intended it.

If this is the CASE then the Engineers would NOT be so Concerned about a Returning SEEDING ship. (Originally there was NO Pebble Ship but it was to be a Croissant Ship) so if these Ships are a UPGRADE to the Seeding Ships then a Returning Ship would be Welcomes especially if its considered a Honor, Right of Passage and a kind of  Immortalization that being CHOSEN and used as a Sacrifice would bring.

However such a TOOL can be Miss-Used..  if you came across some Organism that you liked the Traits of, or you wanted to Experiment and Create something that you then become Obsessed with and see THIS Organism as the Perfect DNA to be Seeding Worlds with instead of Engineer DNA.

Then that could indeed Lead us to the LV-223 Perversion of the Creation/Evolutionary Tool ;)

Looking at the Video then the DRONE came across about 7ft Tall bare in mind it was not Standing Completely Upright However, Certainly would not be 8ft 3" as indicated.

The Warrior looked about 6ft7-8" Mark but we have to Consider that Ripley was more closer to the Screen and so the Warrior would in effect be just under 7ft.

By the Time we get to the Runner it appears to be 6ft 2" Ball Park but again Perspective is hard to judge as Ripley appears to Walk up to 6" closer to the Screen

But then we should not Nit-Pick i think a lot of Effort went into the Video and should be Applauded.

The Drone in ALIEN was 7ft 2" when Fully Suited, i would say that Xenomorphs can Vary between 6ft 8" and 7ft 6"

"When I first saw the Prometheus trailer, I thought the Engineer was Dr. Holloway after the mutagen had run it's course"

LOL yeah i remember that Speculation ;)

The First Trailer was Good it did-not give too much away ;) i remember looking at it over and over and Speculating on here what is going on.   And indeed in Part i felt the theory that this was Holloway was Plausible at the Time as we do see the LATER SHOT of him (2:08) and you could think the Shot from (0:16) as being the same Person, but it seems the Same Thing was going on.   However i read into the "king has his reign" as something IMPORTANT and so when looking at the Viral Website and Virtue of the Name DAVID then i was lead to a PINOCCHIO moment when considering ALL of the Trailer... i had discussed on here and thought we would see some Crew Infected with the Pathogen, and then David would INFECT himself and become the Space Jockey we see in the Trailer... in part i Concluded this from this SHOT.

As this certainly did not look like a 7ft being NEVER-MIND a 12 Foot+ Space Jockey, but from this Perspective then Ian Whyte looked around 6ft something Mark ;)

So i thought right we are gonna see the STUFF that Mutates people, then it will do something different to David to make him PART-ORGANIC and then the Octopus like Fetus of Dr Shaw will INFECT our David as he is in the Chair and this becomes our SPACE JOCKEY and the Chest Buster will be a Queen and LAY the Eggs.... That in Part was what i was Drawn to at that time and i FELT it made sense but then SUCKED because it would mean the Xenomorph was NOT Ancient and the Space Jockey was just a ROBOT lol.

However upon seeing the 2nd Trailer my thoughts turned to this being Peter Weyland instead ;) a little...  but also by this time looking at the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods and Big Head Statue i did think this was the Character in the Opening Shot... but i had wondered if the Character who was attacking Dr Shaw was Weyland as he Evolves himself into that BEING...

Again this was purely down to HOW SMALL they looked in the Shot i put as a image above, and the Pilot Chair Scene they never looked as Big as the Space Jockey and so i thought our Space Jockey in this Movie was either gonna be David or Weyland ;)

HOW WRONG was I ;)  as we got to the other Trailers you could make out Davids Head on the Floor, and the Engineer appeared to be over 7ft so at this point i had concluded it was NOT going to be David and maybe it could not have been Weyland but then i was not 100% sure and the being still did-not look to be LARGE enough to be a Space Jockey or the Giant Like beings from our Ancient Mythology etc.

But alas it turned out our Engineers/Space Jockey were 7-8ft Tall ;)

I do recall the Excitement of the First TWO Trailers and Anticipation for the Prequel, i came away not 100% Satisfied but after watching it Twice more i came to Appreciate it and what it SET UP for any Sequels.  I did not see a Problem with HOW it had kept some Mystery and offered us some NEW Mysteries but then i was hopeful these NEW Ones would be answered in a Sequel. 

I remember i was last as Excited (prior to Prometheus) about a Prequel with The Thing 2011 and Star Wars Phantom Menace and both of them Disappointed me much more ;)

The painting above from Beksinski is a shockingly-relevant example of what we are discussing when comparing it to what happened on Planet 4.

Beksinski could work as concept art for the prequels....

"Ridley Scott tell us that the Engineers use it to CLEAN UP places, and they would Return Hundreds of Years latter to then be able to START AGAIN. This would be a BIT ODD if the Pathogen goes on to Create Hybrid Horrors like the Neomorph."

Great point on the Neomorph...they are so very uncosmopolitan.  Any reasonable, civilized Engineer knows how difficult it is to enforce the requirement that Neomorphs must wear a cloak while in town.     

Director Commentary

There are a couple of items to also note in regards to Ridley Scott...in the director's commentary if you haven't listened yet in Alien: Covenant.  

He mentions that "The six elders of the entire civilization" when showing the large heads in the temple on Planet 4 and the mutagen is referred to as "filth" as "this filth, kills the planet in months, years to clean, evolve, and start again.."

@Thoughts_Dreams

You raise some Valid Points, i certainly think that when you leave it SO LONG with a Franchise before a Sequel then your always going to find it HARD to compete with the Original, and Reboots often Face the Same Problem...   With ALIEN one of the things that Stood Out even after the Sequels, AVP and Countless times we see Xenomorphs in Comics and Games was that for the Most Part (apart from in a few Comics) their Origin and that of the Space Jockey was a MYSTERY

I think you could have Disney wait and then REBOOT the Prequels and Answers and even then its UNLIKELY they would get it RIGHT too.

Regarding the Prequels we have something that had Evolved over Time, there was Valid Reasons for why we had the Engineers Plot, there was a Good Reason to then give us Prometheus, as a Mystery is Good for some but for others they expected SOLID Answers.

We need to not overlook other peoples influence on what we got though, FOX Executives, Hill and Giler etc... as i do seem to think that AC was NOT what Ridley Scott wanted, but if he got his way then i still think we would have had a Prequel Series based more about David than the Xenomorph, but its likely he would have been Responsible for something Different and leaving the Xenomorph Origin as a Mystery.... but instead we now have it appear that he is the Creator.... but we have covered this OVER and OVER ;)

I think its Interesting to Discus what we interpreted before the Prequels and what we would have liked to have seen.  I think there is SCOPE to introduce something more ALIEN and LOVECRAFTIAN but i doubt we will see that.

As its stands then it is TOO Connected to Mankind as far as the Space Jockey Connection and NOW the Xenomorph which i think prior to the Prequels are TWO things that we would have imagined as being FAR FAR from Connected to Humans and Earth.   I think its easy to blame Ridley Scott, but we have to remember that David Giler and Walter Hill have more Influence and they Introduced the A.I to O'Bannons Story (which i think was a Great Idea)  they introduced the Conspiracy/Agenda of a Company wanting to USE the Xenomorph... which is a Big Theme of the Franchise.   But we have to remember had Hill and Giler got their Draft 100% made, then it was the Company that had Engineered the Xenomorph on LV-426 which i think would have taken away the ENIGMA of the Organism... which essentially the AC Plot has repeated :(

When I first saw the Prometheus trailer, I thought the Engineer was Dr. Holloway after the mutagen had run it's course.

The Trilobite is still very impressive and I believe gives a glimpse into other organisms we may see other than the bipeds spawning from the mutagen.

Regardless of canon and Wikis- If Ripley was about 6 feet tall, the only creatures' heights that look the most accurate are the Runner and Deacon. 

As the films show, she doesn't move with the egg sack.  She detaches.

Diesektor:

Thanks for posting this, it was interesting to see what you have written. I enjoy fan-writing since it shows how many ideas that the fan community has and how everyone have their own idea of what could have happened.

.

That was interesting although the queen looks a bit ridiculous. How would she be able to move with that huge egg-sack and do not get me started about the Newborn.

It is nice to see a new thread, good work.

About the prequels, if we look at how they have turned out I wish that they should never have been released at all. They do not stand a chance against the first three.

When I am finished watching Alien the question is among others – who was the pilot and how did he get that cargo with eggs. There is a mystery there that is very interesting but that is also difficult to live up to when you try to give it an answer. The problem is that Alien itself is such a good movie so any attempt to answer the cargo will likely turn out to be a disappointment. I like the idea of the Engineers but I do not like that they have pointed to David as the eventual creator of the monster since it makes it too close to humans. While I understand the theme it becomes a disappointment from a story kind of view.

"By attempting to ANSWER in part at least the Mystery, they was NEVER going to reveal Answers that would Please everyone…"

I agree but they could sure have come up with a better answer than to show us that the monster was a result of something that we have created. I kind of understand why they did that but from a story point of view it was a huge disappointment. This is what happens when you let someone that does not understand good writing affect the story.

"That for many has NOW become a Worse kind of Secret (Revelation)."

Yeah because it is shit, crappy story writing. If this is what they thought was good writing and something that many would appreciate it has turned it into somewhat of a joke. Look, if they thought that AR was bad actually the idea that David created it makes at least certain parts of AR look better. At least it has not made important aspects of the franchise into a laughing stock but to be fair I think that AC as a whole is better than AR.

"Should it have remained a Secret?"

I think so, but since they have not finished them I would say that it could be wise to erase them from the official time-line and maybe let someone with better ideas and better writing re-make them. The probability that they will throw more crap at the franchise than the prequels have done is small.

"What kind of Ideas/Answers did you Imagine in your Mind before the Prequels?"

I am not sure but at least it was something that was far more alien than what we have been given and it was not about a stupid fucking robot. Probably that the pilot was from a sort of civilization far away that had a deadly cargo but I did not know what his mission was or how the eggs got there. So many possibilities but unfortunately they let Scott affect the story and we have what we have.

hey man, just seen this post - massive thanks from myself and teh band for posting and writing about us - if any one would like to check out teh music you can listen to us here https://www.youtube.com/user/diesektor666/videos?view_as=subscriber we have lots of tracks all with alien style theme and concept 

"The ship also produces Black Goo. Actually, that's why the Engineers catch them. Black Goo - the most important thing in the universe. The source of life"

I think something like this could have worked, especially if we never had Alien Covenant, as at this point we certainly could have Speculated that the Juggernauts are Reverse Engineered from the Derelict Ship.

There was a lot that was ALIEN about the First Movie, with ALIENS and the Queen revealed as a Egg Layer it did kind of replace the Egg Morph but thats not to say a Queen does-not make sense.

Looking at the Egg Morph and the Black Goo, then we dont really know HOW the Egg Morph happens, we know that the Xenomorph must do something to the Human Host, but we dont know the Process of this.  However when looking at the Black Goo then you could speculate the Xenomorph could Infect a Host with a substance that is similar to the Black Goo that then Re-Writes the Hosts DNA and Mutates it into a Xenomorph Egg. 

This Mural by HR Giger is Very Interesting as to me it seemed to indicate the Xenomorph is Genetically if you would connected to the Derelict, and that the SHIP would Produce some kind of WORM like Parasite that would then Evolve/Grow into a Egg.

The Substance the Engineers use in Alien Engineers are Nano-Scarabs, which are replaced with the Black Goo but at a Microbiological Level the Black Goo could be TINY Nano Worm like Parasites.

We have some indication of this in Prometheus (especially unused Props) and some work on a Earlier Version of a Prometheus Sequel.

So if they had introduced the Derelict as a more Older Ship that Produced the Parasitic Pathogen that can produce Eggs, i think that could have worked and we can speculate on WHAT is needed for the Ship to Produce the Substance in the First Place and surely come up with some Horrific and very ALIEN ways that this occurs.

But it is Extremely Unlikely we would get anything revealed like that, and we have to accept a Derelict is the same as a Juggernaught and are a Manufactured/Engineered creation of the Engineers.

I guess they could give us another LAYER above the Engineers and introduce something more Lovecraftian and Surreal but i doubt we would ever see such a thing.

I think between O'Bannon's idea and what went on in HR Gigers Mind could have given us a ALIEN/LOVECRAFT revelation of the whole Derelict, Eggs and Pilot.

But that Ship has sailed a long time ago.... with the Prequels.

Watched the Video its a Good Effort the Deacon seems to be Smaller a little and the Neomorph is a bit taller than it is.

Nice video. The Queen always seemed taller than 15'- maybe due to the huge egg sack it was attached to. For some reason, the egg sack here appears to be attached to the queen's back.

There are a FEW things missing.

Like the 10ft Genetically Engineered Predator from The Predator.

I had speculated a LONG while ago that IF the Deacon was Humanoid to a Large Degree and would thus GROW at a Rate that a Mammal would then our Deacon would like Grow to 12-15ft Ball Park when its ADULT.

We then got Fire and Stone Comics where the Concept Work seemed to indicate the Engineer Born Deacon would have Grown to become 10-12ft Tall

If we look at the Source Material.... STARBEAST

What we had was that the Xenomorph was a Juvenile Stage of a ALIEN Organism that were Ancient and Advanced somewhat.

The Space Jockey was just another unrelated Alien Race that had came across the remains of this LOST ALIEN Civilization the Egg/Spore Stage of their Life-Cycle.  This unsuspecting Giant Race had suffered the same Fate that the incoming Human Crew had suffered.

The in effect Space Jockey had decided to take some of the Eggs/Spores to their Ship for Study and became infected.

This had EVOLVED with ALIEN that the Space Jockey Race and Eggs were NOW connected. The Connection was not really shown, but Ridley Scott had indicated that the Eggs were a Biological Weapon that the Space Jockey was carrying on his Ship.... we had NO reason for WHY or WHERE he was going.

The Virtue that there was a Aesthetically Connection between the Ship and Cargo meant they had to be connected as i described in by previous Reply.   The Xenomorph either came after the Derelict Technology, or the Derelict Technology came from the Xenomorph (Re-Engineering etc) or they both were Created together.

This is all we could Conclude before the Prequels...

HR Giger however had some Interesting Comments and Thoughts on the Xenomorph and Derelict.

He seemed to indicate that the Ship was Genetically if you would Connected to the Eggs, the Ship would actually Create the Eggs.  And the Ship was likely GROWN.

He felt the Pilot was Permanently Connected to the Chair. A Slave to his Ship.

He felt the Xenomorph was a Cyborg it was Part Organic and Part Mechanical which he also claimed the Derelict was.

His other Concept works did indicate that the Space Jockey was some Humanoid Species that would Self-Sacrifice themselves to allow for the Procreation of the Xenomorph, and along with the Xenomorph being connected to the Ship in his Concepts.. this seemed to Indicate that in his MIND the Space Jockey Race are just Humanoids that would be USED to Spread the Xenomorph around the Galaxy...

For what Benefit this Humanoid Race gained was anyone's Guess.

So we never really got Answers... but when you look at Starbeast and HR Gigers ideas then i think there was a much more ALIEN and Lovecraftian Answer to the MYSTERY ;)

The Ship Producing the Eggs was interesting... exploring what it Needed to be able to do so could have been Sinister, Horrific and Lovecraftian.

But ALAS.