Comments (Page 234)

@ chli,

Sorry to nitpick, but June, not July 3rd, 2122, is When the Nostromo's crew was awoken in Alien.

The problem with figuring out and applying real-world science to most science fiction is that most science fiction uses science as superficial gloss or techno-babble icing.

Take Aliens for example. Hicks at one point says that they can expect a rescue in 17 days. Which would mean that the USS Sulaco was due to be back by a set date - let's say within a week? If the Sulaco has still failed to return 3 days after its scheduled return another Colonial Marine vessel would then be dispatched and arrive at LV-426 a week after it left Earth.

That much thought is likely more than what was applied to the "17 days" inclusion of the script. The arbitrary number of 17 days was plucked from thin air to highlight the helpless nature of the predicament the marines were in. Nothing more.

Yes, we can try to add real-world science to things, but that way madness lies. And remember that we are adding real-world science to a franchise that somehow possesses artificial gravity, Faster-The-Light space travel without time dilation, and hypersleep stasis technology that slows down the aging process. 

The Covenant crew awakens on December 5, 2104, a couple of weeks from Planet 4. So David probably sends the Advent message in January 2105 and he sets the course for Origae-6.

To Origae-6 and back again to the vicinity of Planet 4 would take about 15 years (with USCSS Covenant). To get from Planet 4 to LV-426 would take more than 3 years (it took 2,2 years to reach LV-223). That would make 18+ years (without any time at all on Origae-6).

David would then reach LV-426 (with a stopover at LV-223 to get a juggernaut) somewhere at the beginning of 2123. The Nostromo’s dropship sets down on LV-426 on July 3, 2122. David would, therefore, miss the party . . .

Way late to the party. I like the idea of Paradise being the last movie to close the story loop. I also like the idea of the subjective interpretation of "Paradise". 

It is also nice to know I am not alone considering the possible effects the black goo could have on David.

Where did this MAP come from?

I am not sure that we had been given any Co-Ordinates to Origae-6 but that System (Xi Aurigae) would maybe match the Journey Time of the Covenant if we consider Earth to Planet 4 took say 10-12 Months.

Using this Star Chart from say around when David likely send the Advent in Early Jan 2105, the Co-Ordinates of where he sent the Message falls within the same area as Zeta 2 Reticuli but this is the View from Earth, and it only indicates they are located within the same area of our Night Sky, it does-not mean that Planet 4 is 39-40 Light Years away.

The Covenant had 7 More Re-Charges before Origae-6 which would take 7 Years 4 Months to Reach, thats 88 Months.  That means before the Covenant has to make a 8th Re-Charge would mean that Origae-6 from Planet 4 would be 11 Months per Re-Charge....  so 7 Recharges at 11 Months apart would mean that last Re-Charge may JUST get to Origae-6,  if it was 10  Months per Recharge than 7 Re-Charges then they would Need to Recharge for a 8th time 8 Months away from Origae-6, if it was 12 Months per Re-Charge then they would arrive at Origae-6 with 8 Months Charge Left (if my Math is Correct).

so 11-12 Month Charge Cycles would be a Guess, If i am wrong, then i am a bit off i would say its still 10-12 Months Per Charge.

We dont know how FAR Planet 4 is only that it is not far in the Night Sky away from Zeta 2 so if we say 40 Light Years Give or Take then the Covenant would be in about the Same Ball Park as the Nostromo as far as SPEED.

So i estimate we talking a 40-50 Light Year Per Year Speed.     So it would mean that Origae-6 is about 330 Light Years from Planet 4 +/- 35 Light Years

So from Earth we could be looking at about 340-400 Light Year Ball Park...  But this is just a Rough Guess and my Calculations could be way off LOL

I think unless there has been any Official or Covered in Books indication to what system Origae-6 is, then all we can go by really is that it is 88 Months away from Planet 4, and its like the Covenants Total Journey Time from Earth would have been 96-102 Months. (does the Origins Novel give a Date of Departure?).

I think the only thing to consider really is that indeed we are say 17.5 years from Alien and IF those Eggs are from Davids Creation then if the Process of those Eggs becoming the Ones in ALIEN happens on Planet 4 then we are left about 17.5 years to play with, if they are Evolved on LV-223 then this would surely give David a few weeks/months less.

But IF he goes to Origae-6 then he has 10 years to get them from Origae-6 to LV-426/223 which Logically means the Derelict must be on/arrive at ORIGAE-6 at some point during those 10 years.

As we could safely assume from Origae-6 to LV-223 would eat up another 7.5 years or so of that remaining 10 year period.

That DOES-NOT leave much time to FIT in the Plot of HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict considering the Ship Does-Not look like its only been there for Months!

I think i recall from somewhere that the Draft (which i have not read/found yet or bothered to) to a Earlier Alien Covenant/Crossing had Origae-6 as located about 250LY from Earth.

Taking that more into account then Xi Aurigae or 42 Aurigae could be ideal contenders for Origae-6  but so could 60 Aurigae and HD 34790

"However, I understand why people hated it"

It stood and regarded David in a quasi Jiminy Cricket/Pinocchio moment. It seemed like one of those things that would work in a book but was cheesy on screen. 

Looking at some YT comments, it seems there may be a pro level DVD coming out.

I watched this video and it was very well done- I had forgotten how cool live theater could be.

I will have to get to work on making that post chli ;) (not sure the ALIENS Fans gonna like it though LOL)

Regarding a Bring the Gang back... maybe if they have some plausible Explanation for how we have TWO Alternative Alien 3 Time-Lines, i am not sure the Destruciton of Hadleys Hope would be enough to Cause a Tear in Time/Space... so the  alternative FORK in the Road trick would have to be applied... where Fans can choose which route they prefer or maybe like the both to Co-Exist.

My concerns with this or even a explanation to it (like Tear in Space) would be that where would Disney then Stop?  Lets make a Alternative Prometheus?  Remake ALIEN in a Cameron Style?

IF we do get a Reboot of ALIEN 3 for Nostalgia what if the movie SUCKS? or does not do well, it could Damage the Franchise...  Over the years we have seen some reaction to Nostalgia..   Reboot Total Recall, Fans not happy, then some thinking we should get a Total Recall 2 thats a Sequel to the First Movie (Bring Arnie Back).  Then look at Robocop Reboot, now its a (Blomkamp) lets make a Direct Sequel to the Original with same Actors from the 80's, Ghostbusters reaction... we need a Direct Sequel to Ghost Busters 2 (bring the Gang Back),  Instead of learning from the Reboot Mistakes and IMPROVE on it with a Sequel..

As going for the Nostalgia bring Gang Back options may work but if they also suck then they leave Said Franchises a bit Dead in the Water!

I am looking forwards to a Masters of the Universe Reboot... wonder if that sucks and people be like bring back Dolph Lundgren LOL  looks like they was going for a very Dark Version that would appease to the Original Fans (Cartoon Series) but offer a Grown Up (Dark) Version now that those Fans would be in their 30s+..  But more likely we get a Re-Introduction to the Franchise for a NEW Wave of 8-13 year Olds!

PS Sorry for going Off-Topic.

"However, I understand why people hated it"

To be fair some of those who disliked it also was not too Happy about David being the Creator and so the difference in the Chest Bursters could be the Silver Lining on that Cloud because it can be used to argue THIS cant be the same Xenomorph as in ALIEN, which it is not, but could Evolve to be, but leaves it open for Disney to show us in Future that Actually its NOT his Creation on LV-426.

I would actually welcome that, as it means maybe Davids Creation could Evolve into something a bit different than the Norm!

I will just leave it here. When you wish upon a star.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2zzXBg3FcI

I Raptus Yes, that observation was made quite a bit in YT comments. Good catch.

That test was amusing to a degree.

It was great to finally have a translucent version of the Alien, albeit a miniature one.

I thought that the rod puppet looked amazing, the guys from Odd Studios produced some brilliant work for Covenant. It was the CGI overlay, (as with some of the other creature scenes) that made it less than convincing.    

However, I understand why people hated it, or felt it didn't make sense, or was out of step with the Chestbursters we are used to.

Concerning the discussion about whether David created the xenomorph (the eggs found by the crew of the Nostromo on LV-426), here's an image of the distances between the places of interest. It's 18 years between the happenings in Alien: Covenant and Alien.

I think it’s an interesting idea, Gavin, which would make a captivating film. It’s important to get interesting characters. It would be possible to get Ripley, Newt and Hicks (the gang) back if Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection were just bad dreams (Ripley wakes up in the med bay on Gateway once more). But perhaps it would be best to leave them out of it?

I hope you are well enough to conclude Alien: Vanguard, BigDave? It’ll be interesting!

I kind of agree, the Mimicking of David seemed odd, but i could understand it was to indicate that David was the Puppet Master to his Creation.

I really did like the Translucence of the Chest Buster and its a shame the Adult was not the same but this would have required Total CGI for the most part, as to make a Suit that would appear as such would have to make the Xenomorph appear more Bulky due to being a good Few Inches Thicker in every department (Tail, Dorsal Tubes and Head excluded). 

Close Ups could have used a Animatronic instead but a combination of that and CGI would certainly have added a LOT to the Budget.

"eaten away by the molecular acid. Then from the hole, a Chestbursters head hangs, dead"

I think thats a interesting addition that we Have-Not seen before, even if something like this was shown as you explained (Defective, Failed Chest Busters) or someone had attempted to Abort/Kill the Process via taking some kind of Chemical that Causes a Chest Burster to attempt to escape prematurely while dying..  A scene where we see Acid Burn a Hole in the Host and a Partially Formed or Partially Dissolved Chest Buster pushes its way through... something we have yet to see in the Franchise ;)

I think it would be interesting to see the EGG MORPH, we did see it in Alien Directors Cut, but it would interesting to see this again (this time to completion). I suppose using the 1979 Xenomorph for this would indicate a different Procreation to each of the different Xenomorphs we have seen, you would have to then wonder what kind of Procreation does the Runner from Alien 3 have?

The Rediscovery of the Derelict would also allow us to introduce a different kind of Xenomorph too, because having the idea that the ALIENS and ALIEN Eggs are different Cargo Holds sounds viable, and its even what is indicated from ALIEN: ENGINEERS (Prometheus early draft) where there was 8 Different Cargo Holds/Xenomorph Variants.  We could ponder what other kinds of Twist on Procreation could they have?

The Revelation of the Space Jockey could work, as we never knew how old it was prior to Alien Covenant (which has not concluded the prequels so the Space Jockey is open for debate).  The Prometheus Engineer Suits lacked the same Color so they was either Different, or the Space Jockey looked like it had been DEAD a lot more than the 2000 years that the Engineers were.

You would have to be careful how you handle that though, and you would have to maybe indicate more clues to David's Xenomorphs not being those on the Derelict, but a conclusion of merely the Space Jockey had been DEAD for 10'000, 100'000 or MUCH longer would mean its likely the Eggs were not Davids but it would leave it open for some to Speculate that David takes his Eggs to that Ship.

But of course any reveal that this Ancient Race had created those Eggs a LONG LONG time prior would do the trick... as far as the Space Jockey the Options would likely have to be that it is some kind of Bio-Mechanical Being just as the Xenomorph was (also like Sil from Species), or that it is a Bio-Mechanical Suit but the Bi-Pedal Occupant is NOT so Human looking, but also regardless we could introduce a 10ft Species the Difference to ALIEN could then be put down to "it grew out of the chair" a 12 Foot Space Jockey would NOT need to use that explanation though as the Space Jockey was likely about 12-15ft Max.

I think having a Movie that has the Balance of Action and Horror would be ideal, you would also have to try and get some of the background of Prometheus in it, but as a NONE Prequel (well that does not follow on from Prometheus/David) then i guess you dont have to incorporate much Philosophy/Creation Elements etc. I think including information on or even have Engineers in the Movie would get Prometheus Fans on board.

@daliens

Thanks ;) i will get to it as soon as possible.

Thanks- I will check out for sure when I have more time.

I'm going to be bluntly honest here (for a change, - sarcasm -), and it'll be interesting to see others opinion, but the Chestburster born from Oram is one of the worst Chestbursters put on film. In all honesty when I first watched Alien: Covenant I could hear the Thunderbirds theme in my head... and when it raised its hands, mimicking David I literally facepalmed.

I would say the Chestburster scenes improved with each movie (AvP's not included), with Shaw's C-section and the Deacon's birth being the best executed to date, although the Chestburster scenes from Alien and Aliens are the best classic Xenomorph Chestburster scenes, IMO.

Ironically the Backburster effects were well executed, but the performance and choreography felt too generic.

To help bring the thread back on topic,

We have three options...

#1 - The eggs remain undamaged.

#2 - The eggs have been destroyed.

#3 - The eggs remain, but are damaged.

Option one doesn't really change anything and contradicts Alien: Resurrection, while option two leaves us dead in the water. Option three, however, gives us something to work with, from a creative standpoint...

Alien 3 was set immediately after Aliens, which was set in 2179, so lets put a new movie 30 years later, which would be 2209. LV-426 is now a Weyland-Yutani research and development outpost, guarded by an executive branch of the colonial marines. The marines are there in case of emergency and to keep out the salvagers, who are stripping what remains of Hadley's Hope for scrap.

Inside the outpost, WY has finally gotten their prize - the derelict Juggernaut and its cargo of thousands of Xenomorph eggs. Sadly for WY, however, it seems all of the eggs have been corrupted by radiation, with most Chestbursters unable to birth themselves...

Imagine, like in Alien: Ressurection, a prisoner bound and unconscious with an open egg before them. They wake, screaming in agony before falling silent, their head lulling as blood soaks their chest, and then the recognizable "jutting out" of the ribs, but it is not as pronounced as we have come to expect. The prisoners bloodied chest then begins to smoke and sizzle, a hole slowly appearing and growing, eaten away by the molecular acid. Then from the hole, a Chestbursters head hangs, dead; the interior organs of its head visible from an open wound.

Another scene of interest could be an autopsy on the Space Jockey, to reveal that he is millions of years old and most definitely not an Engineer - raising the questions of who/what was this creature and are there anymore, similar vessels out there yet to be discovered.

We then show WY being more attentive to the Xenomorph, surgically removing them from hosts and producing somewhat stabler specimens, though lo-and-behold, even these specimens are corrupted and of no use to them. This could be where it is revealed why they desire the organism so much - the technology of reprogrammable cellular nano particles AKA the black pathogen, which is in part what the Xenomorph is composed of. But the radiation on LV-426 has corrupted everything at a cellular level, with the cells gradually breaking apart.

Inevitably the stabler specimens, of which there is only a handful, escape and all hell breaks loose. But these specimens are not the ones encountered by Hadley's Hope, Fiorina 161, or (in 200 years time) the USM Auriga - the royal specimens stored in the Juggernauts arms were depleted when Hadley's Hope fell, with the Queen producing subsequent eggs for that colony, and all of which were then destroyed in the detonation of the atmosphere processor. The specimens WY have been attempting to harvest are from the Juggernauts cargo hold, discovered by the USCSS Nostromo in 2122, and are a different, non-eusocial variant, that is much more aggressive and intelligent, and capable of siring their own young by transforming a host into an egg.

Egg-morphings back baby...

From there you move away from the exposition and freak show to the Aliens getting loose. But by having the Xenomorphs cutting the power and plunging the facility into darkness and having the Xenomorphs use said darkness to stealthily incapacitate and capture the WY executives, scientists, Colonial Marines and inevitably the salvagers - AKA the aesthetic of Aliens done as a dark horror movie a la Alien.

BigDave I hope you feel better now and lookong forward to reading the Alien: Vanguard (on a new topic).

"So, the table is set for Blomkamp"

Absolutely as far as IF the Eggs are there regardless if David Created them, the Engineers or Ripleys Grandmother ;) (joke by the way).

I context to the Derelict Cargo that was there in 2122, then indeed after 2179 we cant rule out the Derelict as being Salvageable, if the Studio want to make a New Movie they would choose this route anyway (likely) and as LV-426 never went BANG like the Death Star, then its viable the Derelict can be Salvaged.

I would be open to Blomkamps Ideas baring in mind they originally NEVER had Ripley and the Gang..  i think bringing the Gang Back and so that ALIEN 3 does-not exist and Alien R to a extent (work that around a Blomkamps Alien 3) would be a MISTAKE and just a Nostalgia Trip for Fans who Lament for how Alien 3 killed them off.

New Alien Movie... recover Derelict.... WHY NOT! 

Bring back Ripley and the Gang.... No Thanks!

UNLESS.... they do a Ripley Movie that is a Alien 5 thats set after Alien Resurrection.  I had a idea for this well TWO and one was from years ago, the other a variation of it that would BRING Back just Newt (Clone) from those killed in Alien 3 but with a Twist that well ALIENS Fans would maybe not like.  (would also have Ripley of course and a way around her AGE Difference).

Alien: Vanguard was what it was to be but i have been Unwell recently and busy and i never got time to post my idea on here as intended for Alien Day.. i hope to post it in the next 7 days.

Regarding the Daniels vs Shaw debate...

I have not seen as many of Watertons Performances as they are  movies that never appealed to me as far as MUST see, but i think the same thing goes with Rapace and her Character.   The Prequels were not the best written Characters or Performed, yet both Actresses are capable of better than they did.  Is this the Writers Fault, Directors or just a case of one of their lesser Performances.  I know some Fans would love to see Miss Weaver back but i dont recall many Stand Out Performances since the 2000's, she is capable of a Decent Performance Still i think regardless who is CAST its the Characters Written for them and the Input/Influence of the Director to get the best from them that counts.

Regarding the Deacon i looked at it as being Human Hybrid in terms of how it was Born (Placenta) and Fully Formed.

And so i would have assumed when Fully Grown the Creature would look similar just Snarl a Lot more and be like 10-12ft Tall. (Birthed from Engineer).  Maybe if we look at the Human Traits the Deacons Head to Body Proportions could maybe Differ a bit when its Adult (like a Human Baby vs Human Adult).

As far as what happened to the Deacon?  In context to the Movie Franchise who knows...  The Movie seemed to suggest it maybe had a 4-5 Day Gestation Period, which we can assume that Dr Shaw went back and saw the Dead Trilobite and Engineer and assumed both was DEAD and then this is when she had plenty of time to Collect Supplies for The Crossing, unless we assume by Pure Luck she found all of these from the Prometheus Exploded Wreckage.

"the relations are not quite as straight forward as you claim. In many myths I know there is a personification of the primordial Chaos"

Certainly there is quite a lot to each Mythos and Many Cultures/Mythos and Religions do share quite a lot of similar things, maybe its a case of Ticking Off the things they have in common and then sticking a HP Lovecraft Twist to them with a Dose of HR Giger Aesthetic.

The Virtue of exploring various Creation/God Mythos is it allows for a Very Rich and Broad Pot of Ideas to be looked at, but then it can also become a bit Complex when trying to Pick Which to loosely base the Franchise off and which to not.

I think Prometheus does seem to tease a bit more of a Biblical/Paradise Lost take, but i think they should not overlook the Prometheus Aspect as far as the Greek Titan.

The Fresco is something open to interpretation i looked at it as being Punishment to Prometheus.. now in context to Prometheus this could imply NOT a single being but maybe a Race of beings or Sect.

I was kind of drawn to looking at this the same way as the NEXT Layer..  Going back to Prometheus.. if we indeed assume the LV-426 Eggs were intended for Mankind, but this Mission Failed..  and Mankind now sought out the Bio-Weapon intended for them to use to their Advantage would the Xenomorph purely have only the use as a Bio-Weapon?

So could the Engineers (or those LV-223 ones) had upset their Hierarchy and been sent something as Punishment that they then eventually saw as a Potential to Improve themselves?   I think a Problem with this would be the Bio-Mechanical Ships, and IF they are Reverse Engineered from the Xenomorph or connected, then we have to ask WHY was those Planet 4 Engineers not punished too?  Prior to Alien Covenant it was a theory that made a bit more sense.

@Gavin

"suggesting such Chosen few are augmented in some way"

Certainly seems that way, when we saw Prometheus we saw that the LV-223 Engineers had this Bio-Mechanical Technology and had to ask where did this come from?  Created, Stolen or Reverse Engineered?

Alien Covenant introduced us to the Planet 4 Engineers who were just NOT as Awe Inspiring and looked more like Human Hybrids, we pondered was the differences just LAZY and Budget Cutting...  Who knows what the intention was.. but Ridley Scott came out and said that those beings are the Originals, when he talks about AI and mentions Replicants, then maybe we could ponder that the Prometheus Engineers are Augmented Planet 4 Engineers, are they a Sub-Created/Engineered version, a Selection of those Engineers who Evolved themselves, but was this permitted?

And what was the Method of this Genetic Augmentation and could this connect to the Black Goo or DNA/Traits of a Organism connected?

Regarding David indeed maybe he could be Redeemed... the Prometheus David, the Crossing David and the TRAILER SONG could lead us to ponder would he had turned out the way he had, if he had been treated KINDLY?

"if we are kind, it will be a kind world"

His response to Daniels (as Walter) when asked what kind of World can they Build.   The SEQUEL was intended to be about what kind of a world David would create/build and in this he could maybe Redeem himself.

Because on the Basis of it, we could see WALTER is not Evil as he has No Free-Will, but with Mankind we have Free-Will and our Upbringing can Shape the Person we are.. this could have affected David... but also if we consider how KIND is Mankind as far as following the Ways/Rules that a God would have set out, then a Large % would offend the Gods in todays world.   Maybe David could Create a New Civilization that is Free from Sin of Mankind.   We also have Damaged our Planet, imagine if a God came to visit us 3000 years ago, and then look at the World Today?  This is why the Covenant Crew were attempting to escape the Rotting Paradise of Earth to try and find a NEW Eden..

Maybe the Engineers had a Industrial Bio-Mechanical Revolution and realized the Damage/Hubris this caused, and so they Returned to a more Basic Life... like the Amish and Monks do etc.

Images fixed in the Adult Deacon thread, though some are broken or have been deleted.

@ ignorantguy,

Logan Lucky, Adam Driver and Daniel Craig were awesome in that movie. Sadly most general audiences are superficial - we all like actors that leave an impression.

If Waterston has done something that stands out performance wise, I'll be more than open to giving her a chance, but based on what I've seen thus far I think we may have already seen the limit of her range - but one can be wrong, who would have thought "that guy" from Knights Tale would give us the definitive Joker in Dark Knight.

@Gavin Fair enough, I was talking about the Marine campaign in the '99 game. Both have experimentation on the Xenomorphs (cyber enhanced). marines, queens. The "praetorians" could have been also introduced as some form of genetic manipulation.

Judging Waterston only her very brief appearance in Logan Lucky is very superficial. Why not try Steve Jobs (where she plays Faszy's wife) of Mid90s? But judging by her filmography Covenant and the Potter prequel are her biggest roles yet.

@ignorantGuy,

AvP Games? I have played them (Capcom, Monolith, and Rebellion, though not the Atari Jaguar). I see no mention of Praetorians, Specimen 8 and the like. AvP belongs in comic and video game form, so please clarify. 

Purely based on what we have seen of Waterston in Covenant, and Rapace in Prometheus, Rapace's performance was much more captivating and dynamic. I'm too old to be a Potter fan so I haven't seen what Waterston did in Fantastic Beasts. But I did see her in another movie were she was collecting blood, and she was completely forgettable.

Waterston may be the more bankable option currently speaking, but when it comes to acting ability Rapace is IMO the better choice, and in terms of their characters I feel Shaw's narrative is of more interest than that of Daniels.

I agree somewhat on the nostalgia issue, but was also pleasantly surprised by The Punisher TV series. Thus I would like to remain optimistic that Disney would recognize that Alien performs better when it remains dark and foreboding.

...

To another point now...

If a Weyland-Yutani expedition to LV-223 is to be used to supply the much needed human element of the narrative, while exploring the fate of the Prometheus we have the opportunity to add to the mythology of the Xenomorph.

If said expedition occurs at the same time as Davids story arc and that of Walter and Shaw, this would mean that Deacon will have been on LV-223 for 10+ years alone.

While we could just leave it up to speculation as to how it survived what if we instead show that it cocooned itself (a la Species, above) within some sort of biomechanical/organic hypersleep pod, waking when it senses the Weyland-Yutani vessel landing.

As for the deacons design, remember that what we saw was the burster. For the adult form, we could take some of the designs used in Scified's Design the Adult Deacon competition back in 2012 combined with that of the Deacons burster form and the classic Xenomorph...

P.S. Bear with me as I update the posts to show the images on said thread.

chli Look both sides of good and evil in LotR are less than they were and Humanity has already fallen during the second age when they failed to destroy the ring. The book permeates the feeling that if the great heroes of the past would have been alive current Sauron wouldn't stand a chance.

Even now the good guys fail and the world is saved by luck or Divine intervention that Gollum rips Frodo's finger with the Rig off and falls into the mountain. Evil will always be and will always corrupt.

David is just a delusional @$$-hole.

ignorantGuy

Sauron was merely used as a symbol in a battle between good and evil. Sauron would have taken over Middle Earth if the ring hadn't been destroyed (and mankind would have fallen). David now has the ring (the wolves) . . .

Concerning the Derelict and the eggs on LV-426 (canon or not):

According to “Alien: River of Pain” (The novel is about what happened to the settlers of Hadley’s Hope colony), the company (W-Y) knew that The USCSS Nostromo picked up a signal and investigated the source but they didn’t know exactly from where the signal came (just somewhere near Calpamos). “The Nostromo Mystery” was the vanishing of the ship in 2122.

In 2137, the crew of The Anesidora find the flight recorder of The Nostromo and eventually the Derelict on LV-426. Once there they turn off the beacon. The captain’s wife is infected and taken to Sevastopol station where a Xenomorph is let loose and leads to the destruction of the space station.

In 2159, Hadley’s Hope Colony is established and according to “Alien: River of Pain” the secret mission (which only the science department knows about) is getting a xenomorph. The company knows that the source of the beacon that the Nostromo intercepted is somewhere near Calpamos.

The beacon on the Derelict is turned off and the climate and weather make LV-426 very difficult to explore. The Ilium mountains block the Derelict from technical detection. The atmosphere processors are built and in 2173 “Newt” is born. In 2179, Burke gets the coordinates from Ripley and the Jordan family go “treasure hunting” which eventually leads to the xenomorph infestation and the destruction of Hadley’s Hope.

However, the explosion of the atmosphere processor might not have destroyed the Derelict and the eggs since they are far away from the colony and protected by the Ilium Range. So, the table is set for Blomkamp . . .

@Gavin What you describe is more or less the AvP video games without the P part.

How can you say that Waterston is nobody as she was starred in the 2 Fantastic Beasts movies (and will also be in the third), both making more (in total more than 1.4 bn dollars world-wide) than anything (and combined everything) Rapace was in, including the second Sherlock movie with Robert Downey Jr. American audiences don't even know or care about the original Swedish Girl series, for them there is only Fincher's remake. How can the 2 Netflix movies quantified as BO potential? And I don't think they could afford killing yet another "lead". If money is king it's obvious for them to pick Waterston or to bring somebody new in.

I don't understand the concern for lack of gore and sex, Covenant was the most gory in the series and did that help? The real problems are nostalgia and rehashing (which were already there in Covenant) which are the only thing Disney seem to produce (The Star Wars sequels, live action adaptations, some of the recent MCU movies).

I prefer to think thatWeyland-Yutani is interesting in obtaining a specimen of the Xenomorph not to use them as attack dogs but for something more wider-reaching - the nano-particles of radical AI, that makes up the black pathogen and likely too, the Xenomorph.

The technology of a biomechanical, programmable viral agent would be not only highly coveted and lucrative (we are essentially talking alchemy here), but would be worth billions, and would also be perfectly suited to developing biological weaponry.

Yes, this is taking Advent and aligning it with Weyland-Yutanis designs on acquiring the Alien as seen in the first three movies, but I feel it's a more plausible direction to take than Weyland-Yutani wanting to tame a biomechanical killing machine that has shown repeatedly that it cannot be tamed.

@ ignorantGuy,

Nostalgia didn't work out too well for Alien: Covenant, and may not work out so well for an action-packed Alien movie. Disney and Fox, and especially Emma Watts know their industry and their market. Granted they make the odd faux pas (X-Men: Apocalypse, The Predator, etc.) but with an established franchise such as the Alien franchise the fact that only one of the four preferred movies (Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, and Prometheus) is action orientated, together with Scott's influence of returning its franchise to its roots as a science fiction horror (despite not actually being a horror director) are more likely. The only slight concern is that Disney may influence Fox to lessen the more gory and sexual elements so that future Alien movies can be released with a lower rating in the hope of attracting somewhat bigger audiences - but from a business and logical perspective, this makes perfect sense.

Although this discussion isn't about Neill Blomkamp's proposed movie, imagine this - what if Blomkamp's movie (minus Ripley and Co., to appease fans) was made revisiting elements such colonial marines, dropships, APC's, etc., but was executed as a horror movie rather than an action movie. Such a movie if executed well could please fans of both Alien and Aliens, merging the sense of dread and fear from the first movie with the aesthetic of the second movie.

As for Noomi vs Katherine. Thanks to Prometheus, Girl with a Dragon Tatoo, and Bright many fans are becoming aware of Noomi's potential. Waterston, on the other hand, is a virtual nobody, with some audiences (the I don't care about Alien type), thinking the character she played was Ripley.

I would wager the head of the "Giger screw over" movement since Alien 3 would be David Giler, and I'm sure most are aware of my feelings in that regard.

@ BigDave,

Sacrifice is a common theme not only in antiquity but also in the lore of the Engineers as shown in the opening scene of Prometheus. It is likely that some Engineers are chosen to be sacrificial either directly (Prometheus opening scene) or indirectly (LV-223) which would explain the commonalities between the two that separate them somewhat from the Paradise City Engineers (musculature, complexion, darkened eyes, etc.), suggesting such Chosen few are augmented in some way.

As with ancient civilizations, it is likely that despite their primitive nature the ruling castes of Engineer society, presumably, the Elders are more knowledgable of the true nature behind their Eden Paradise, their heritage as humans, and the deal they have made with the devil. As such, and as hinted at in Advent it is likely these Elders believing they were acting in their societies best interests, broke their part of the deal and renounced the "wolf".

Elements as deeply philosophical and mythological could be included in a simple scene whereby one of the lead characters discovers some Engineer hieroglyphs, that fans could pause on DVD/Blu-Ray and decrypt, without overburdening general/casual audiences with time-consuming exposition.

As for the conclusion to Davids narrative arc, I think elevating the character to potentially greater delusions of grandeur would further distance any association fans have with the character. In Prometheus, David was an interesting enigma, but all too often many have related that in ALien: Covenant David has become a caricature, a stereotypical mustache-twirling uber-villain. What Davids arc needs is redemption or humility because for his arc to be effective we have to be able to associate with his case, no matter how maniacal it may seem on the surface. We need understandable context to his madness - Vader was cool and threatening, but once is narrative was expanded he became 3-dimensional and multifaceted, and much more interesting and relatable as a character.

@BigDave sure there are hierarchies of gods in mythology but do the relations are not quite as straight forward as you claim. In many myths I know there is a personification of the primordial Chaos from which things spring up, or at least must be overcome to bring order. This Entity could be considered somewhat equivalent to Lovecraft's Elder Gods, and the Goop itself could have been a by-product of the process of apparent taming. This is what the mural showed, with the Engineer subduing the Bird-creature with xenomorph type hands.

And there also the fact that in some variants of the Greek myths humans are created by Prometheus (a Titan) and Athena (an Olympian), so sometimes the various generations can cooperate.

Thats understandable 123Engineer

I would say if Alien Covenant had made $350M+ and never had as much Negativity towards it, then we would have likely got a Sequel this YEAR!

If Alien Covenant had returned a Box Office like Prometheus and yet still got some Negativity/Criticism then i think again we would have had a Sequel.

Maybe we will FINALLY see a ALIEN movie in 2026 to celebrate 40 years of ALIENS and it being a Alien Franchise and NOT prequel Movie.

"I didn't wanna do this but..."

Absolutely everyone can have their own different views and theories and opinions, its their right to have these. Sometimes i maybe come across as Forceful about my opinions i hope this is not the case as its not intended.  I have noticed other Sites do Spiral out of Control and its WHY i just stick to here ;)

"Alien: Covenant would be more unrestrained and creative,"

I certainly think we could be Creative, the Scope of Prometheus was HUGE it maybe had TOO much Scope to be done any Justice within the Restraints of a Movie, especially when the Studios would be looking at something that would engage most fans.

Its a Good Point about  Stanley Kubrick as i felt Ridley Scott was trying to expand the Franchise to give us a more Thought Provoking, Space Adventure type Spin Off Franchise, than to center around the Xenomorph alone..

so in Context to a "Dare to Dream" i think its interesting to open up our imagination to things that would not be restricted by Running Time or what Disney would feel the Fans would want.  My reply about a LV-223 Movie was just in context that this would be the more Easy Route to become something more ALIENY and Steer Away from all the things that a Prometheus Sequel was intended to Steer Away from... which is shame as i would have liked to had seen such a Direction (Steer Away from ALIEN).

"As for the origin of the eggs on LV-426, their origin matters not, only that as preference would seem to dictate,"

I have to agree, but this is what some would expect... i think its a shame in Hindsight that Prometheus did-not have some more ALIENY Elements and LESS Ambiguous Clues to the Xenomorph, so then the Door could have been Closed to ALIEN.

Perhaps enough clues to suggest David's Xenomorphs are NOT on LV-426 would be enough, this could be done by some Dialog especially if David is shown to Evolve/Create his own Humanoids..  then when he is confronted by some Humans he could go on about HOW he had Perfected the Engineers Lamb in Creating a more Superior Humanoid, and that this is NOTHING compared to the Perfection he has in mind for the Engineers Wolf..  He then shows them a EGG. We could have some more similar Dialog that would then indicate he HAD created his own Version.   Thus NO need to even see the Original LV-426 Event...  (but some Fans would still want to see this).

This is WHY maybe a LV-223 Movie that would be kind of a Re-Do of Prometheus Mixed with Alien Engineers that would be LESS ambiguous but NOT Spoon Feed the Xenomorph would also then CLOSE the DOOR to the Franchise, and then allow us to explore what David gets up to without the Restraints of having to be about Xenomorphs.

But in context to this Topic we can talk about things that dont have to cater for Fans who want to just see movies that would center around the Xenomorph and its Origins.

"Personally, I still believe that the Engineers are primitive human slaves, used by some higher power (Space Jockeys maybe"

I think that certainly could be something to explore.. i think the Answers have always been in our FACE... in that DAVID is the KEY, he would related to the Continuing Creation ARC and Purpose that is maybe Repeated over and over. In such a Narrative then IF we see David Evolves those Embryos to be his own Superior Version of Humanity then its likely the Conclusion could be they would REBEL against David... in which Case David would then have to use his WOLF.

What i mean is that David was not merely created to be the Cherished Son that Peter Weyland had always wanted. So maybe we was NOT created by the Engineers to be Loved and Cherished but for other Reasons, and this could keep going back and back and apply to the Engineers too.

GOD => Angels => Mankind

Anunnaki => Igigi => Mankind

Titans => Olympians = Mankind

So yes having the Humanity and Engineers Creations being related to the same Purpose could be interesting, are Mankind Created to replace the Engineers? if so by the Engineers or by those above the Engineers?

I certainly think we could go UP say a LAYER or TWO and have this explain the Space Jockey Race, and even a Race above them!

@daliens

I think we could safely speculate that LV-223 was likely Abandoned after the Outbreak, You have to Wonder what Safe-Guards are in Place to deal with such a Outbreak as Janek had said he had to PULL THE PLUG on a Scientific Outpost on Earth. So we could wonder COULD the Engineers have found a way to Quarantine or Destroy that Complex.  Leaving the others still in USE?  Do we Assume the other Complexes had also suffered from a Outbreak?  Do we Assume they were so concerned with the Outbreak that was Out of Control that there was the Potential for it to spread to the OTHER Outposts so they abandoned them?

Or had they decided after the ONE Outpost Outbreak they would Abandon the Entire Facilities?  Another Consideration would be was the Outpost Targeted by another Contingent who wanted to Put a Stop to what was going on in those Places, and after doing this they had abandoned the place instead of Destroying it?  These are all Questions we dont really have any answers for.

Regarding the Scorpionaught (Scorpion Ship) it was confirmed by Wayne Haagg that it was some kind of Border Control, we dont know if it was Automated or Manned.  The Concept works seemed to show it had come from the Hanger at the Point that the Juggernaught had entered the Atmosphere but the Movie seems to indicate that the Scorpionaught had not come from the Hanger or would even FIT inside. 

It was proclaimed to be some kind of Protective Measure but had some kind of DUST UP (Fight) with the Juggernaught and had Crashed as a Result.  We have to wonder what kind of Safe-Guard this was at it appeared to be Helpless against the Juggernaught and Unleashing its Cargo, you would assume such a Safe-Guard would be able to Disable the Juggernauts?

We could look at the Ship having some Protective Measures and Border Control, we could speculate that ONCE the Ship was Destroyed/Crashed that it Disabled the ability for other Ships to Leave, (the Deleted Scene and Concept showed there was other Juggernauts in the Hanger).

"Did it belong to the civilization from planet 4 or to some higher civilization?"

Who knows... it appears the Purpose of this Craft was to Monitor and Manage incoming/leaving Juggernauts and those appeared to be the ONLY kind of Bio-Mechanical Technology on Planet 4.

The Craft maybe could also Monitor the Planet and its as if it was WATCHING over that City, which i think we can assume is the only Engineer City on this World.

Maybe when we look at Paradise (Biblical Account) in this Context we can make some Sense of it, Paradise was the Place where the Garden of Eden was located, it was a Place that the Cradle of Human Creation.  It was NOT a place were GOD (Gods) came from, its was NOT were we go in the After-Life, it was a place that Cherubim (Angels) would WATCH over from the Skies to keep a EYE on Gods Creations, and act as a Border Control/Security?

We dont have to be too Literal Here, but if we look at it like that then it could Kind of Match.

Things to Consider....

*The Engineers had little Concern for the Ship, they are aware of these ships, yet Welcome them, maybe we could assume they are Military being Welcomed Home, and they have NO Fear of the Weapon, because they are so NAIVE to think there is NO possibility of any of their own kind TURNING the Weapon upon their OWN KIND? 

Or indeed there is NO way any of their Creations would ever be able to get to any Outposts these Ships/Bio-Weapons are located, because their Creations are only TAUGHT limited knowledge and kept even Less Advanced than the Planet 4 City Looked, they maybe would attempt to Destroy or Abandon Way-Ward Children/Creations thinking that WITHOUT the Engineers knowledge they would NEVER advance to be a Space Faring Race. (thus Threat).

*The ONLY location of any Advanced Technology regarding more Advanced than Mankind Possesses say NOW (or near Future) was the Scorpionaught and Juggernauts and that HANGER.

*The Engineers appeared to be Flocking to the Plaza around the Hanger to Welcome the Ship, as if this is something they DONT see too often or signals something of Great Importance.  (they have no Fear or Concerns).

*The Engineers appear to be Dressed in Garments that are reminiscent of Ancient Times, but some appear to wear more Ritual/Ceremonial Robes.

*The Hanger is Surrounded by Four Statues that appear to be like the Buddhist Offering Statues, they appear to be Holding Something. We could maybe assume could this be a Sacrificial Bowl?  If we assume the Statues looking like Buddha Offering Statues is for a Reason (Offer something).  Then could this indicate that the Return of a Ship means a Ceremonial Sacrifice is due?

*The Plaza has Statues of Engineers, if we consider a Superficial Offering and Contemplate that maybe the Juggernauts are a Advanced Seeding Ship, where Engineers are Sacrificed and their Broken Down (after Goo) Material is Stored in Urns... then would dropping Engineer DNA Urns onto a World be a more Efficient Seeding than sending down a LONE Engineer to do the Task?

This would explain why those Engineers are NOT afraid, and if the Sacrifice is seen as a Great Ritual/Honor where the Chosen are in essence going to be Immortalized by their Seed Creating Life, and also then having a Statue Erected in their Honor, then maybe Planet 4's Purpose makes more Sense?

Especially as Ridley Scott still refers to them as Gardeners of Space.

Thats just my interpretation though.

Yeah, too bad that no tv series or film was announced. Problem with the franchise is that it all takes so much time. 7 years after Prometheus we got Alien Covenant and that was 2 years ago... The films have to be released in a regular rhythm/frequency. For example every 2 or 3 years... Then they have continuous attention and interest of the fans and non-fans.... But therefor, the studio needs a plan for a series of films... If we have a look at the planet of the apes prequel films or the maze runner films, they have a clear ending and beginning and each film was released several years after the previous one.

@Gavin Sorry if I was a d!*k but the fact is whatever we talk here is pretty much irrelevant. People in droves are cheering on Youtube for grandma Sigourney's reenactment of the Newt introduction scene from Aliens, while on these forum are merely 58 users online when I write. Many people disappeared after Covenant, especially does who liked so much. There is more money to be made in a nostalgia fest (even if Covenant was full of nostalgia).

And you know it is also pretty useless to expect something with substance from Scott and Logan, with the first being foremost a business man , easily bending to corporate demands, and the other said that Sci-fi is a minor genre. On the other hand, Kubrick was one of the most intelligent and well read directors ever working who staid as far away from Hollywood and his only commercial film was Spartacus. So I can't even imagine that the latter 2 would compromise with the studios, and yet the first 2 have done it countless times. Sure they could try bringing new blood to continue the story, but Disney would interfere with their nostalgia cr@p.

As for Noomi, I would buy a ticket for ever movie which comes to the cinema. But killing off Daniels is a also a bad idea as we don't know how many of the normies/fans liked her and could result in further complaints.

PS. Studios are also responsible for the lack of the Giger touch, since they are screwing him and his estate over since Alien 3.

I didn't wanna do this but...

I fully understand that within a community such as our own that there will be a mixture of personalities, perspectives, and beliefs, and that it is inevitable some of these may contrast, even conflict with one another. I've been here nearly 7 years (has it really been that long, shit), with most of that time being in an admin capacity (I ain't flexing no keyboard muscles here, just saying), and I was a regular over at the Epic Games forums for many years prior. In addition to the responsibilities and privileges my role bestows upon me here I am, as are we all, a fan at heart, and as such love to get into discussions and debates about my favorite franchises, such as Alien. However, within such exchanges of ideas, theories and speculation one rule should remain no matter whether it be on any of Scified's forums or any others (although many other forums regularly ignore this rule), and that rule is paramount - always discuss/debate the topic, never the individual. In other words, keep it clean and on topic, never get personal and never get emotional. The breaching of this rule can take many forms, some more obvious than others (such as being threatened or bullied or ridiculed, for example), with the less obvious being needlessly negative, presumptuous or judgmental towards another individual. The TLDR version of this is - don't be a dick, it sours the experience for many, and for some, it is the only means of socializing so let's keep it, at the very least, hospitable.

Now back to the topic in hand...

I had hoped the "spitballing" of ideas for a Paradise sequel to Alien: Covenant would be more unrestrained and creative, but it seems some believe that we must temper our expectations and creativity around the real-world logistics of such a production ever being greenlit. While I agree that we must, as in life, remain rooted, no creative or artistic vision is beyond the realms of possibility. Had Arthur C. Clarke and Stanley Kubrick tempered their expectations this way then 2001: A Space Odyssey would have never even made it to preproduction. As such, let us not be tied down by such restraints and instead dare to dream. This may be a fruitless exercise, but so too is the participating in a forum, which by that logic means we shouldn't even bother at all.

The biomechanical queen idea returns...

Noomi Rapace is a terrific actress with a tremendous range. A case in point would be to compare her seven roles in What Happened to Monday against Michael Fassbender's two roles in Alien: Covenant or even Assassin's Creed. Sadly she is not a character 'actor' like Tom Hardy, Gary Oldman, Brad Pitt, etc. I bring this up because if Noomi was to reprise her role of Shaw, especially after how the character was monumentally mishandled, then her role would have to be of interest enough to the actress. Additionally, I think said role should also play towards her strengths, one of which is portraying a wide range of emotions. To that end, I think that a resurrected Shaw, within a biomechanical shell, should face her existence on an emotional level, either through learning the horrors inflicted upon her by David (in both Prometheus and Alien: Covenant), or upon learning/realizing that her beliefs are mere delusions and that her existence is inconsequential.

@ BigDave,

While I do agree that the final movie in a trilogy has to be conclusive in nature, it does not need to answer every question to fulfill that purpose.

For the Alien prequel's the only arc that absolutely needs to be concluded is David's narrative, and even then his narrative does not need to end definitively.

As for the origin of the eggs on LV-426, their origin matters not, only that as preference would seem to dictate, they should remain mysterious in nature, and as such should not be related to whatever David thinks he has created. The simplest answer would be to somehow reveal the eggs have been on LV-426 for more than 35,000 years, and that Davids re-creation is either inferior or derivative. While serving the narrative of the franchise this could also serve towards a conclusion for David's character arc, whereby he must inevitably face the repercussions of his actions either internally or through some other agent, possibly at the hands of the Engineers, or maybe even Shaw herself - hell hath no fury, remember.

As for Daniels, I feel Katherine Waterson's range is in comparison rather limited (no offense), especially when compared to Noomi. Additionally, I doubt many would even notice, nor care if Daniels was excluded from a sequel. And I doubt the actress would want to take second billing to Noomi in a, quite frankly, cameo role.

@ daliens,

Ah, the scorpion "mothership". One of the few biomechanical elements with Alien: Covenant, an aesthetic the prequels should have been relishing in and exploring, as BigDave mentioned.

I still prefer and believe that the Space Jockey and Engineers are separate entities. However, I believe that the Space Jockey does not need to be explored in the prequels, only referenced, inferred. However, the Engineers were introduced in Prometheus and as such need to further explored and/or expanded upon.

I think that clarifying the Engineers role and relationship in regards to mankind and/or the Xenomorph is an absolute must. It will not only compliment the biomechanical aesthetic of the biomechanical city I proposed in the OP but would also help tie the prequels into Alien. Again, not everything needs to be spoon-fed, with inference and ambiguity being powerful tools that can be used to help connect the prequels into the bigger franchise while also be used to hint at another, parallel narrative, as per Prometheus' intention.

David's understanding of Engineer language could be used here to relate this to the audience, with the discoveries he uncovers fulfilling the necessary roles in the narrative I just mentioned.

Personally, I still believe that the Engineers are primitive human slaves, used by some higher power (Space Jockeys maybe) to carry out the work that the dead pilot on LV-426 failed. Maybe the scorpion "mothership" and its position floating above the Engineer city is a godlike reminder/instrument of the said higher power. Or exploring other possibilities, possibly a remnant of the Engineers' biomechanical past that they once used but have since renounced (explaining their look, technology and their abandonment of the "wolf").

Yet, I notice that despite the calls for a human element, most postulations seem to be regarding either David or Shaw. In what form should the human element take?

I think it was intensely debated in the past and if anyone reached a conclusion, can you please explain the meaning of the scorpion vessel from Alien Covenant?

Was it for defense, for surveillance of the Engineers on planet 4, was it to prevent the other Juggernauts from the undergound hangar to leave the planet? Did it belong to the civilization from planet 4 or to some higher civilization?

Why was it hovering above the plaza?

We all have seen the Juggernauts are able to dock without assistance and I don't see how the scorpion ship could have assisted.

Sorry to go off topic, but since we debate the future ideas, that vessel could be the missing link.

LV223 seemed abandoned by Engineers for many years before Prometheus arrived, possibly immediately after the outbreak.

Was the outbreak a lesson learnt by the Engineers,  the turning point that made them renounce their wolf (whatever that meant, black goo or xenomorphs)?