New Replies (Page 398)
Good Point... i know a lot of Cameron's Bug Haters view those Xenomorphs as in-superior and brainless, but actually they seemed to show more Intelligence than the 1979 Xenomorph that basically just went around stalking its prey and killing them. (The DC versions shows it actually had a Procreation Agenda).
The ALIEN Xenomorph was never pitted against Military Expertise and Weapons and to quote DUTCH from Predator...."if it bleeds, it dies" so the Xenomorph was not as indestructible as some thought, and while the Xenomorphs in Aliens seemed to just flock to their deaths, i claimed before this is due to Numbers, and if the aim was to Protect the Queen and Hive, and they had greater numbers, then just like in the Military you would sacrifice yourself for the objective and have a less cautious approach when in greater numbers against what you persevere as a lesser threat.
The 1979 Xenomorph was alone, had a Agenda to Procreate the Eggs and so would be like dropping in a Special Agent into a Conflict zone like a James Bond, and so Stealth has to be key.
Totally agree..... my reply was in one way to agree the movie has been a disappointment, but Financially is was not, which when this happens sometimes the Production Company will not take on board any criticism and just go by how the movie Financially did.
The same would be said if Alien Covenant made 50% more opening week and USA and then overall made 50% more so say if it Grossed over $370M then FOX would have seen that as a sign they GOT IT RIGHT
I think the Last Jedi was similar to Alien Covenant for me, there was so much potential to continue and improve upon the previous movie, but what we ended up with was most of the stuff that it set up simply being brushed under the carpet or handled in a poor way.
I saw AC the other day, 4th time now and its grown a little bit on me, i saw TLJ again (2nd viewing) and i just Face Palmed even more than the first viewing lol
I will add that i think it was RS who mentioned the other month? no sorry i think it was Mark Hamill, thats it yes.. He said it does not matter how GOOD a movie, all that matters to the companies is if it makes MONEY
Which i guess is why we can have some Good movies like BR2049 not do Financially well, yet the same Comic Book Action movies do well, such as TMNT, GOTG etc
If we stick to the stupid idea that David created the xenomorph (it’s really super stupid since we have the background story of what happened on LV-223), how did he manage to create all these eggs in 18 years?
First of all, it’s about 7 years to Oregae- 6 from Planet 4. He might, of course, have experimented on the 2000 colonists aboard The Covenant (including Daniels) and Origae-6 might, in fact, be LV-426? It’s possible, but if it isn’t he needs to transport these eggs (thousands) to LV-426 and plant them in the cave there or, which is impossible, the eggs are in the cargo hold (which one and how big is this if we don’t go by Doctor Who).
Also, everyone with eyes (including Dallas) can see that the space jockey is a skeleton (fossilised) and not a space suit. I think that RS has lost interest in the franchise and I’m glad that Blomkamp is planning a new alien movie.
That Max Fitgerald image is creepy and awesome! Thanks for the share Ati!
BigDave - 'I would not say The Last Jedi is a Disaster, while it was a disappointment it was a Financial Success...'
If you reread my comment, you can see that I wrote 'the disaster caused by Ryan Johnson's The Last Jedi.' :)
It refers to the disastrous situation the movie has created. :)
However, I think The Last Jedi is a catastrophe. 8)
'The continuous negative new cycle has me seeking out
beauty in movies, books, and museum exhibitions.
It’s one of the reasons I made it a point to see
Call Me By Your Name this past weekend.'
'The “romantic coming-of-age drama” written by
James Ivory, is based on the 2007 novel of the
same name by André Aciman and was directed
by Luca Guadagnino, who also directed I Am Love
and A Bigger Splash.'
'The book is actually set on the Italian Riviera but
director Luca Guadagnino decided to set the film
in Lombardy at the 17th-century Villa Albergoni,
a place he actually thought about buying until he
realized it was out of his price range, and the town
of Crema. The rooms look so perfectly lived in that
it amazing to learn that everything was brought in
except the vintage pink sofa in the professor’s library.'
Source:
http://entertintname.com/2017/11/27/call-me-by-your-name-2/
Thx for the comments.
Gavin - 'I have always maintained that the "Egg Silo" was a separate structure..'
I'm sure the Egg Silo will be revealed in the direct Alien prequel as a separate facility
My 2 cents,
I have always maintained that the "Egg Silo" was a separate structure and not, as many people have argued, a part of the derelict. Although some have argued the possibility of "Doctor Who" like technology, the layout of the silo would make for one ugly extension to the form of a Juggernaut. When I see the silo scene I clearly see a dome-like structure, not too unlike those on LV-223, but in this case being mostly hollow and housing thousands if not millions of eggs.
I believe that the domes in Prometheus and the airlock opening on the underside of the Juggernaut in Covenant are Ridley's way of showing what happened - that the derelict landed on top of a dome, opening its "belly airlock" to connect with the structure.
As for David, I think it is clear from the Deacons appearance in Prometheus and the murals seen inside one of the domes on LV-223 that David did not create the Xenomorph - the Xenomorph is an ancient creation and the end result and whole purpose of the Black Pathogen, as in most cases contamination results in the formation of Xenomorph qualities, likely sourced from Xenomorph DNA within the Black Pathogen. All David did was create a variant of the creature, which if Awakening is ever made will be revealed to be inferior to the form we were introduced to in Alien, the biomechanical form favored by the Engineers.
Still from Alien Covenant - If I'm not mistaken, this is the super-facehugger:
This thread makes me think about comparing the classical "Big Chap" Xenomorph and the bug Xenomorph (Cameron's). Obviously, these two species have much difference from each other (or even more), than the Protomorph and the Xenomorph. This applies to the physical characteristics and behavior. And appearance too.
What future? RS is 80 now and Disney does not seem to eager to do something in the Alien universe. I don't think we can expect more then one movie now.
Sure... Closure..
One that allows however for Future movies to be more ALIEN based, but then also allow for other movies to be LESS Alien, they began this Journey with Prometheus, which was toned down from Alien Engineers and hoped to provide a few clues to ALIEN so they can shut the door on that case, while keeping the Mystery and then explore sequels to Prometheus that would STEER away from ALIEN.
However the ambiguity of Prometheus, the lack of Alieness and answers to ALIEN meant that Fans had problems with Prometheus and the sequel plans, and FOX then took this on board and U-Turned with Alien Covenant. IF Prometheus had more Alieny Encounters, if it provided more clues, then Ridley Scott could have shut the DOOR to Alien.
Then moved on with the Space Jockey/Engineers.
I feel they need to make the next movie one that would CLOSE THE DOOR to Alien, i cant see Alien Fans waiting TWO more movies for these Answers which Sadly means most of what ever RS had planned would have to be By-Passed.
This then opens the Door in future for RS to cover some of his ideas in Parallel movies or even a movie that covers the events prior to what ever his FINAL piece of the Puzzle Movie would have been.
I like the direction you take- sort of a lesson/cautionary tale story.
Add some "chicken or the egg" brain game too.
I am at a point where I would like to see it all end- even if I don't agree with it. There should be closure.
There is hope though......
*The Aesthetics of the Derelict are slightly different and more Bio-Mechanical than the Juggernaught, as i know some fans are disappointed with the lack of Giger Aesthetic we see in the Engineers, especially how even more toned down Alien Covenant was compared to Prometheus. WILL the DERELICT be shown to be a Different kind of Ship and Explain WHY it looks different?
*Fans are also disappointed a bit with the Engineers, especially Alien Covenants, they just dont seem as AWE INSPIRING and as ENIGMATIC as the Space Jockey. Then there is the Size Difference, our Engineers appear to be between 6.5-7.5ft tall, the Space Jockey was about 12-15ft tall. THESE could be FIXED with the introduction of ANOTHER Race.
*The Xenomorph lacks the Aesthetic of the 1979 one at the moment, it needs to become more Mechanical, and so some kind of EVOLUTION must happen.
*Then the Xenomorph has to end up on LV-426 which is close to LV-223, and so a Engineer or similar Race Ship must end up taking Davids Creations to that system.... WHY? I guess the Logical Explanation is WHY did those LV-223 Engineers Worship the Deacon Mural? They obviously saw this Organism as PERFECTION its safe to assume maybe those who created the Deacon, would view DAVID'S Xenomorph was maybe more of a PERFECTION and so could attempt to take it to LV-223 to EVOLVE/PERFECT it more.
To the Space Jockey's Hubris.
I think these points if explored, could give us a introduction to a more Sinister Agenda, introduce us to a different Race, thats more Giger-esque and make the Franchise a bit more Alien and Alluring and make our Space Jockey once again a ENIGMATIC SPECIES.
True, i think while it may seem a good idea to REVEAL David as the Creator, following the Creation Themes and Rebellion that Prometheus set up, the Irony that the Engineers experimented/created something Horrific to Destroy their Wayward creations because they feared what would become of us. But in their Hubris they failed to Control it. Which left Mankind to indeed Evolve Technologically and explore the Stars and follow the Star Maps leading them to that Place of Death for those Engineers.
The biggest Hubris for them, being that Mankind even Evolves so far that they created their own Creation, DAVID who by his vary creation has set Mankind on the same path of the Engineers, which is in hindsight Sub-creating something that would eventually rebel against its reasons for being created.
Mankinds Hubris potentially could come at the hands of Sub-Creating David, as they also in Hubris go in search of our own Creators, but finding a World of Death... Events that Set David free, and off to explore where our CREATORS really come from, revealing that David has his own Agenda, where he will FINISH what the Engineers started and use this against those Engineers, before Perfecting it to use on Mankind.
What a Calamity for the Engineers, had they decided to not Create Mankind, there would be no need to try and Destroy us with the Bio-Weapon they created, having this Weapon Turn against them, only to then have their Fears Come True, when Mankind Evolves Technologically to reach the Stars, but also Creates AI as in DAVID who then Ultimately Decimates even more of the Engineers than was destroyed on LV-223.
I can see why RS chose this route....
THE PROBLEM.... by going this U-Turn did Ridley Scott not conceive what changes this makes to EVERYTHING as far as Time-Line and other such things?
It seems the lay person like me can't get too wrapped around the axle with time lines because it makes little or no sense as you pointed out BigDave. I like to go back to the basics of the 70s but here we are with the David aspect. That is not a bad thing at all, but it seems each movie brings more questions than answers.
Indeed DK
Ridley Scott had ideas how he would have continued the Franchise prior to Camerons Aliens and one of the interesting ideas he had was that the sequel we would go to WHERE the Eggs and Space Jockey came from and it would have been a very Giger-esque World. I am sure all of us would love to see that!
At the moment, the whole Aesthetic Difference of the Derelict/Juggernaught would maybe have to be addressed, RS had said they are related, but they differ in terms of a few hundred years Technology wise? well his comments are ambiguous so he maybe does not mean Technology, but maybe just Age... as in ONE ship has been on LV-426 others LV-223 separated by Hundreds of years. Because well for a Ancient Race i would not expect the Engineers to bring out a NEW MODEL Juggernaught every few hundred years ;)
The other issue is the Cargo Hold, but this is debated in THIS thread already.
IF we assume David is the creator, then to get to ALIEN there are a few events that need to happen.
*We can assume David is on the Covenant and thus regardless of if he tries to create more Eggs on the journey or when he arrives at Origae-6, i think we can safely assume David will arrive at Origae-6 prior to when those Eggs ever get on a Engineer Ship... THIS MEANS... by the year 2112 there would be NO EGGS on LV-426
*Davids Creation has some way to EVOLVE before we get to the Classic 1979 Xenomorph, and so we have to wonder HOW/WHEN/WHY his creation gets Evolved, does David do it, the company? Engineers? etc.
*Engineers will be returning and no doubt be on course to where David is off to (Origae-6) i think the Engineers are thus the Plot Device (at least their Ship is) to get those Eggs from Origae-6 and then off to the System that Holds LV-223 and LV-426. The Question is WHY? as that System is NO-WHERE near Origae-6
The only Logical Explanation would be a incoming Engineer or related Race Ship, encounters Davids Xenomorphs, and then attempts to take them to LV-223 to EVOLVE and then leaves LV-223 but ends up only as far as LV-426
I will have to start work on my Part 2/3 of the Prequels, which i will be calling Alien: Ascension then go to Alien: Awakening. Where i will be addressing those very things.. The time line i propose however is that the Derelict ends up on LV-426 for 7 years prior to ALIEN
But i am pondering a BOMBSHELL Pun intended, that introduces us to Creation Tools those above the Engineers use... I will be making a Topic on this Plot Element some time this week... as far as connecting to Ancient Creation Mythos and bringing the 1979 ALIEN Poster into context..
A additional Part of the Plot for the last movie that will EXPLAIN why the Space Jockey looked Thousands of Years old.... and WHY no one goes back to LV-223 at the time of Alien.... and YES Time Travel is involved but not in the way you think ;)
Well this comes from the U-Turn by Ridley Scott and FOX, Alien always left this a Mystery but it was one that Ridley Scott had said a long time ago had taken place THOUSANDS if not Hundreds of Thousands of years ago (various comments from the 80's and 90's). When work began on the Prequels, which started to evolve to Alien Engineers and later Prometheus, the idea was cemented by RS as being THOUSANDS of years ago. He even then basically gave us the date of WITHIN a few HUNDRED years of the LV-223 OUTBREAK
This puts it within the 1800-2200 years ago Ball Park, well actually leaving TWO Scenarios...
1) The Black Goo Experiments on LV-223 had taken place a few hundred years after the Space Jockey/Derelict incident and the Eggs are the Source of their Experiments (Re-Engineer the Xenomorph)
2) The Space Jockey/Derelict event had taken place a few hundred years after the LV-223 Outbreak and so the Xenomorph was a Evolution/Mutation from the Outbreak.
HOWEVER... Ridley Scott may have suggested all of this for years, but the Movies never made any of it CLEAR, it was kept AMBIGUOUS and so on Screen, we are only given clues that Allude to the Xenomorph and LV-223 Experiments being connected, and maybe some clues that MAYBE the Outbreak is Related.
But since Alien Covenant has offered a Curve-Ball who knows what the deal is now, it appears that DAVID is the Creator, but the Novel seems to hint at him Experimenting with a Egg he had not Created, we have to wonder how ADF got this wrong? Or was at some stage in Production and Draft Stages, things got changed to make David the Creator?
I cant say for sure if the Source i had from Feb 2015 is correct, but they CLAIMED that David would be RE-CREATING it and so by showing HOW he does this would give us clues to HOW it was done in the past. This seems to be the clues a bit in ADF's Novelization (Re-creation/Evolution).
But it appears RS at Present is going with the idea that... NO DAVID = No Derelict and Eggs.
Thanks for the share, i can see the resemblance in these, nice find ;)
Talking about Portugal...
Stone Egg from the Algarve, claimed to be many Thousands of years old... kind of reminds me of the Alien Covenant Eggs ;)
I don't think they thought about all of this in the 1970s. They probably did not anticipate a fan base to pick it apart 40 years later either. Unfortunately for RS, we DID pick up on it and now he has some explaining to do- and it seems some will not like how he does it either way.
To the question, I like to think that those eggs were in the egg silo Giger designed. The ship crash could have been some bad luck. We see the derelict apparently on a planet surface with no sign of an egg silo, but it was there for a long time, enough time to appear fossilized. With that wind whipping about, the silo could have become buried. But that makes it seem like the Derelict was teetering on the silo when it landed. Maybe it didn't crash. Maybe it landed atop the silo and chaos happened after that. The pilot decided to leave but died first.
Yes, I know it is unlikely, but the intentional ambiguity allows the possibility.
I think the eggs were there and for reasons discussed in another thread, they ditched the silo idea.
Love that N.C. Winters one ;)
Also the Neomorph and Xenomorph Selfie LOL
Indeed the last one i posted has a very broad chest like the Space Jockey had ;)
I posted this on another Topic, i suppose it fits here too, i took a different color Space Jockey Engineer suit, i made the Torso Wider in Proportion to the Legs and Arms, and then made the Arms and Legs longer than the Original Image, so the Edit i made, has same kind of bulk to Arms and Legs, just longer a bit and the Torso from Waist has been made Wider a bit and then i stuck another Less Human, Humanoid Head on lol
Thanks for the share...
I do like some of the concepts here, but having these scenes in the movie would mean the Crew made even more stupid mistakes than in Prometheus... I am not so sure on the Dog and Gorilla designs though...
I dont think those animals look too Xenomorphy/Black Gooey ;) The Gorilla maybe...
But then who is to say this is just what the Planets Natural Life is like and is NOT via Black Goo infection.
Thanks for the Share, seen most of these before apart from the Story Boards, very interesting.
I am not a fan of most of the Adult Designs, with the Goblin Shark Look especially the hunched over ones, this is just my opinion though. The head on the 5th one i do like though.
@Critters5
I think they still look odd, i prefer the idea that we got as far as the Space Jockey Suits, the Space Jockey does look slightly more Skeletal but this is mainly the Head/Helmet and the Pipe/Trunk is definitely not Organic at all.
I think introducing another Race as the Space Jockey could Freshen things up, have a different color to the Engineers SJ suits, make the Space Jockey Taller, and under the Helmet something less Human.
Forgive my Editing Skills LOL, i took a different color Engineer Space Jockey Suit, i made the Torso Wider in Proportion to Arms and Legs, and made Arms and Legs longer a bit compared to Original Proportions, i think crudely stuck on a different Humanoid Head, but we could be more adventurous than this head, but it had a Elongated look.
'A creepy stone creature perched on Chapel Portugal in Saint-Jean-de-Boiseau. Does it look like a Xenomorph to you?'
https://muthur9000.tumblr.com/post/170197303530/a-creepy-stone-creature-perched-on-chapel-portugal
dk - :D
They say that image is full of Giger. :)
Ati That is a really interesting one. Someone tried to take a luxurious black goo bath and things didn't go well. That is a reaaly interesting pic though- lots to look at and ponder.
Indeed Thoughts_Dreams a lot has to do with how the Cargo/Organism, and the Derelict Ship and Pilot/Pilots have evolved from Star Beast to Alien and then what Prometheus revealed.
After Alien Ridley Scott had informed us that indeed the Derelict was carrying a Egg Cargo, something RS had stuck by right until Prometheus, before he offered a slight ambiguous change where he implied "something in the Cargo Hold Evolved and Got Out"
So we had to suspend belief, and just accept the Cargo Hold was part of the Ship, HOWEVER with the route they have taken now, it really leaves it open to how they explore the Derelict Eventually, it appears everything and clue set down prior does not apply no longer.
Because they can now adjust the outcome how they see fit... so indeed they could reveal the Egg Chamber was a Egg Silo/Cave, we shall have to wait and see.
I think the connections are supple much like Deacon and Hammerpede's they was not TOO HR Giger Bio-Mechanical as far as the Xenomorph Aesthetic, but saying that every movie after Aliens the Giger Aesthetic is toned down... The New Born in Alien does not look much like the Xenomorph, because its a Hybrid, the Xenomorphs also not 100% the same as those in Alien, they look much more Organic... again because they was from Ripleys Blood so we have to assume contained Human DNA, hence why the Queen was Pregnant with the New Born.
Prometheus did steer a bit away from a Direct Xenomorph Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic as far as the Organism looking Part Mechanical and Part Organic. With the route they are taking now we have to wonder how the Mechanical Element will be introduced....
Originally before the Prequels the one thing that stood out was Genetically so to speak, certainly Aesthetically the Xenomorph and Derelict Ship seemed to share similar Traits and had to be connected, which is something Gigers Mural and ideas implied.
It would be nice to see a more Giger-esque Aesthetic introduced in the future.
"What the hell is brownie points"
LOL i do need to remember most on here are not from England and so wont know what a Brownie in this context is lol, its like the UK's version of a Girl Guide, and Brownie Points is basically doing a Good Deed that gets you praise and respect.
So basically what i was saying is that with Ridley Scott working on the Project, if he can do well with this he can show Disney what he is capable of, and get on GOOD TERMS... so getting Brownie Points means getting on Good Terms/Impressing someone, and in context to RS is so that maybe Disney would be open to listen to what RS has planned for the Alien Franchise.
I think if RS was not chosen to be a part of Disneys Merlin Saga, or any other Disney Project i think there would be less chance of seeing Disney do Ridley Scotts Alien Prequels.... but if RS is to be part of the Merlin Production then he can use it as a means to maybe push his Plans for the Franchise.
I think that Scene did unsettle a lot of fans Thoughts_Dreams on one hand it was quite beautiful but on the other it was totally ignoring Alien Lore.. We have to Question how does this Evolve into the Alien Chest Buster which looks a Evolutionary Step Back? Unless David was EVOLVING the Xenomorph.
The Scene in part seemed cheesy as far as how it seemed to follow the actions/movements of David, but i think this was to Emphasize that David was the Puppet Master/Creator. There are also numerous connections regarding the way David Raised his Arms up, as far as in Philosophy and Mythology.
"If Scott wants to do android movies then let him do so but keep that away from the Alien franchise."
I think Scott Wanted to do AI on the basis that AI is a Creation, AI does not Create Itself so to speak, for the most part... meaning there has to be some non AI Element that is involved in the Creation of AI, even if this AI Evolves to create its own AI etc, Ridley Scott was touching on the Themes of Creation in General
In a Futuristic World where Evolution Can take any Shape or Form, the Results could be Dangerous, but not as Dangerous as if a INTELLIGENT Species Directly Influences and Manipulates Evolution and Genetics, as we see the Engineers can and have been... But what could be more Dangerous is if True AI, Evolves so that AI then goes about replacing every Organic Creature with Synthetic Versions that can be Manipulated and Programmed, rather than use Natural Instincts.
These are themes RS wanted to explore which he started with PROMETHEUS and hoped to carry on with Sequels and allow these Movies to STEER AWAY from the ALIEN Franchise. He was never really intending to give us a ALIEN Franchise, but something else, but Sadly PROMETHEUS did not Provide enough of a ALIEN Fix, if Prometheus had done so, so it pleased the Alien Fans more, but then SHUT the Door on that Franchise, then RS could have carried on with his plans.
But bowing down to Pressure, RS and FOX decided actually Fans need a Alien Franchise and a more Alieny Movie, but RS still wanted to explore his themes and so ALIEN COVENANT was born that just did not do enough on both parts...
Right Now, they have U-Turned to please Alien Fans..... they need to make the Xenomorph a part of the Prequels but you have to be careful if the Plans require TWO movies because another TWO Xenomorph Flicks will just not be interesting, but they also need to not overdo the Android Elements either, so thats why they are in a PICKLE at the moment.
The Engineers are interesting... but i think they need to bring in a Sinister Agenda for them, or introduce another Race Connected with a Sinister Agenda and something much more Alien than how the Ancient Engineers came off.
But certainly Characters and how they are used and written is something that has to improve, but then we have suffered with Sub-Standard Characters since Alien Resurrection, where every movie since has revolved only around 2-3 well written Characters to a degree. Only Alien to Alien 3 had the Characters been done well.
Totally true Dark Nebula, thank you!
I like the creature in the first image very much. It should have been used in the movie in my opinion.
I think it depends fan to fan, some like Mystery some like stuff more Spoon Fed, and i feel Prometheus maybe needed to be a little less ambiguous but some ambiguity is still needed. I think a BIGGER problem stems from what the movies Plot and Dialog points to compared to some contradicting/ambiguity that can lead to to view those Plot Points and Dialog a bit different to Visual Clues and then comments by Ridley Scott etc can make things even more ambiguous.
This applies to Alien Covenant too, while the Movie sets up certain events that lead us or intends to lead us to one conclusion, there are clues that the keen eye will spot that offer some conflict to certain things (such as the Origin of the Eggs), then we have the Novelization that seems to point more towards those Eggs being something the Engineers Created, but then you have Ridley Scotts comments that point to something else.
Then you will always have fans who are set in their ways of HOW they expect things to be, and so they was maybe not pleased at the Space Jockey = Ancient Bald Humanoids, the same as the Black Goo = Xenomorphs that are a result of David using the Pathogen.
I think the ambiguity is wonderful myself... because a little more Spoon Feeding and we may end up with the Following.
Engineers Created Mankind, Mankind upset them 2000 years ago, Engineers Created a Bio-Weapon to Destroy us thus LV-223 is/was only a Bio-Weapons Facility.
David takes Engineer Ship to their Home-world, Bombards the Engineers who were welcoming a Military Faction back, and then via the Pathogen Infection and experiments with the Black Goo David creates eventually the Xenomorph.
AC does leave some ambiguity to what if the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus took place on Planet 4, and also maybe those Engineers on Planet 4, had already had Xenomorph Eggs... But its if you look deeper at the inconsistencies between Prometheus and Alien Covenant Plots, that set up ALTERNATIVE explanations...
Which my theories seem to be based off.... Basically is the Juggernauts ARE-NOT Machines of War, but the nature of the Engineers Seeding and Evolving Rituals/Technology could be used as a Weapon, but "To Create One Must First Destroy"
