Comments (Page 399)

Its easier to work out the Juggernaught as we have some Schematics.

When we consider this, and the Derelict supposedly being 60% of the Juggernaughts Size, even if we consider them the same size as in height, we can see there is NO WAY the Egg Chamber in ALIEN would fit.

In Alien we can bare in mind the Nostromo Crew enter the Vaginal openings and appear to walk upwards so there is a upward slope to them, and they then climb up to appear via a shaft/gab just beside the Pilot Seats Circular Platform.

In Alien Covenant the Crew of the Covenant enter via a Hole in the Cargo Hole, we can assume at a point similar to where i have marked out in MAGENTA but then in order to enter the Corridor that leads to the Pilot Room they have to descend down.  I can give a more in-depth analysis using shots from Alien Covenant, but it could appear the Juggernaught Interior is very odd, and maybe the Entrances that lead to the Internal parts of the Left/Right Arms of the Ship are laid out differently to each other?

Ridley Scott has said the Cargo Hold was part of the Ship however in ALIEN, it would be interesting if we ever see the DERELICT prior to its Crash Landing in future to see how RS covers the Egg Chamber.

Going by the Size of the Exterior and Interior of the Juggernaught and Derelict the only Logical Explantion i have is that the Derelict ships Technology is different and it has a similar Dimensional transcendentalism that Dr Who's Tardis has.

There is quite a bit of inconsistency regarding the dimensions of the Derelict and Juggernaught, i think with the Derelict they should have worked on a full schematic of the ships layout but this was not the case, the Juggernaught did have more work done as far as schematics.  The FIRST image i posted i lined again the Vaginal Openings to match approx size but they dont line up as far as the Dome at the Top of the Derelict with the Juggernauts and then the Vaginal openings lining up too.  I am referring to the image with the RED box the openings are scaled to approximately the same size, then the domes lined up and the openings of the Derelict Overlay are higher up than the Juggernauts.  This shows if the Vaginal Openings are about the same size then the Juggernaught is actually about 2M Taller than the Derelict.

However when looking at actual given sizes the Juggernaught is a C Shape and its size in Diameter is about 300M mark, the Derelict is a average of 60% of the Juggernauts given size, The Derelict being a U Shape its Diameter cant be worked out to well, unless we take Two different X/Y measurements which give us 160M X 180M Approx.

So from this we can even more so see the Cargo Hold in Alien Cannot fit under the Pilot Room. 

Another interesting error is the interior of the Derelict as far as Pilot Room and the size of the Entry Points to the Left and Right are WAY more larger than the Juggernaught showing the interior height of the Corridors is much larger on the Derelict.

The Juggernauts Entrances (to Pilot Room) if i remember right are about 10ft tall, they are not shown in this image, and the scale may seem off but we need to remember the SJ shot is using only 4ft Child Actors in this shot.

So a lot of inconsistency have caused us problems which leads to debates such as this Topic.

daliens

Well, to me it sounds more like he’s stuttering out of excitement. “A ca” is the beginning of “A cave” which is what he eventually says, and it definitely looks more like an (alien modified) cave with its rolling shape. As has been pointed out by some in this thread, this is because it was meant to be a cave (or a silo) from the beginning but apparently economy put a spoke in their wheel. In the beginning (earlier scripts), the eggs were therefore meant to have been created there.

Yes, how did the space jockey get infected? It might remain a mystery or, if there will be another movie connecting to Alien, RS might give us his view of the backstory. If, for some reason, the juggernaut (derelict) had eggs stored in a special area of the ship (in the other juggernauts we have seen, the cargo hold was on the same floor as the pilot room and sealed by a door, one of them decapitating an engineer during the outbreak. These cargo holds contained urns filled with pathogen - not eggs), perhaps one facehugger left its egg and climbed up using acid, broke through the floor to the pilot room and attacked the space jockey? The resulting xeno would, later on, die of starvation somewhere on the moon?

Another possibility is that the space jockey got infected during the outbreak on LV-223 (about 2000 years earlier). There were four other facilities on LV-223. Perhaps the eggs were created in one of those and that the outbreak started there and spread to the other facilities? This would explain why some engineers were chestbursted. The space jockey perhaps managed to escape and was, maybe unknowingly, infected but managed to land on LV-426 and set the warning signal before he died from a chestburster? If this was a queen, it might have made the hole down into the cave and lay all the eggs?

The deacon might not have anything to do with the rest of the story at all. It was created with the pathogen (containing xeno-DNA?) and humans and an engineer as hosts and when David and Shaw left LV-223 it eventually died?

Why was the space jockey fossilized (which Dallas claims)? Well, either he was wrong (it wasn’t that old) or the space jockey was very old, perhaps even older than the outbreak on LV-223? In the latter case, the eggs must be very old as well and not David’s creation . . .

Batchpool

You are right about that lavender ointment, it could have been there before David's arrival on planet 4. So the eggs... Unfortunately Ridley Scott excluded this reference from the film.

On the other hand David is a sensitive esthete that dyes his hair so I don't see why he would not use a lavender ointment for his own comfort.  When in Rome...

I watched again those scenes from Alien.

After they entered the derelict they passed through some ascending corridors then they got up a wall to find the pilot room and the "Alien life form. It looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized. Looks like it's grown out of the chair. Bones are bent outward. Like he exploded from inside."

Later Kane discovered the hole in the floor. The hole is large enough to allow Kane's descent through some kind of pit. The hole was right on top of that pit.

"A ca--a cave of some sort. But i-- well, I don't know, but it's like the goddamn tropics in here.

The pit is completely enclosed, and it's full of leathery objects, like... eggs or something.

There's  a layer of mist covering the eggs that reacts when broken."

During his descent from the pilot room Kane does not pass any other decks or platforms or outer hull, so we can assume he remains inside the derelict all the time.

Why did he used the word cave? He probably wanted to say cargo hold (he started with "a ca...") but it was not looking like a cargo hold he was familiar with. It was a single huge compartment, without any vertical bulkheads. Probably the leathery objects and the blue layer of mist made everything look more like a cave than a hold. Anyway the hold has the design Giger made for the silo.

But if the eggs are in the cargo hold, how did the SJ got infected? 

Who/what made the hole in the floor? It was made by something getting out of the hold and into the pilot room (it was right on top of that pit Kane used)? It was made by the thing that burst out of SJ? Why would that thing go down to the hold? Did that thing lay the eggs after it killed the SJ?

What is the connection between the Deacon the the thing that killed the SJ?

Can the Deacon be an alien queen?

The SJ was very old, it looked fossilized. The dead engineers from Prometheus were very old too but their suits still looked like suits not fossilized bodies. Why?

Good job noticing the mutated fungi on the tree trunks!

The pathogen which leaked out from the juggernaut into the stream might also have reached the lake where the lander was? Probably there was once fish and other animals in that lake? Faris was walking in the ancle deep water there . . . :)

BigDave

Well, I suppose you can’t argue about the budget but if we go by the film, it’s a huge cave (which Kane says it is). Why didn’t they bother to change the dialogue? They could have had Kane saying: “It looks like a cargo hold or something!”. Do the juggernauts have several floors, by the way? To me, it looks like only one. Well, it worked then but problems arise when interpretations are necessary to make prequels and sequels?

Spearfish Ripley fits your descriptions. She died.

Both fall victim to the thin, untrained female human.  So I think humans win here.  Especially females.

The 1979 Xeno wins. It has intelligence, cunning and physical attributes (the perfect organism). The proto is brutal and impulsive. A force to be reckoned with for sure, but may not last over the long haul from what we have seen.

Indeed i think its a case of asking what would be the greater threat....

Coming across a Tribe of Cave Men, or Pre History so Humans from 8-10'000 years ago or coming across a Troop/Group of Apes be it Chimpanzees or Gorillas and then asking which encounter would be the most deadly.

While Apes would be a Psychical Threat i think that over the long term, i.e chances of long term survival then encountering a Early History Human would be the greater threat.  Due to their Superior Intelligence and Team Work compared to Apes.

I see this being the deciding Factor between the Xenomorph and Protomorph,  Intelligence OVER Animal Instinct would be the greater Factor, certainly as far as VS Humans.

I think Ridley Scott will be more vocal regarding a Alien Covenant Sequel maybe when we get a interview where he covers either the Sci-Fi movie Zoe (2018) or The Terror TV Series.   Maybe also if he does land the Director Role with Disneys Merlin Movie Saga.

If we have interviews from him regarding these Projects and the Alien Franchise is not mentioned then i would assume that signals a indefinite state of limbo.  As time goes on i feel a Alien Day 2019 Release Date looks unlikely, but i think this was the Planned Release date.... but the movie is on Hold.

Maybe Alien Day next year we could get a Trailer if they do start a Alien movie latter this year, if not maybe Disney would use Alien Day 2019 to make a Big Announcement about another ALIEN movie?

If April 26th 2019 comes and goes with no News on another Alien movie, or any going into production by then,... and nothing is announced on Alien Day, then i think we should all get VERY concerned with the Future of the Franchise.

I would not say The Last Jedi is a Disaster, while it was a disappointment it was a Financial Success, it did have a bit of a steep drop off though, but not as steep as the decline with Alien Covenant... i feel if Alien Covenant had made $400M+ i think FOX would have seen the movie as a Success regardless of any criticism it got.

I do however agree that Disney must be looking at the Back-Lash that The Last Jedi got, and will be trying to make sure the Last Movie in this new Trilogy learns from the things that upset so many fans with the Last Jedi.

We can only hope they also do the same when they take on a ALIEN movie.

Yeah i noticed this before, nice for you to bring it up, it did have a whole Snake look to it and also regarding the Hammerpede i always thought there had to be more to it than what we saw, there has to be a reason it invaded Milburns Mouth.

My idea/theory which i added to my Re-work of Prometheus i was working on in 2013, was to show that the Hammerpedes also acted like Face Huggers, and had multiple Eggs, they would lay one inside a Host.  I also felt it was likely the Hammerpedes maybe caused the Chest Busted Engineers in Cryo-sleep, because we know those Worms had been on LV-223 prior to the Prometheus and they are so small that a Black Goo Outbreak could have led to exposure to these Worms thousands of years ago, and they are so small they could get unnoticed and then grow to Hammerpedes and infect the Engineers.

GREAT CATCH!

That really throws a Spanner into a Theory i had, because we see Ledwood gets infected near a stream so the Spores were Growing in Moss located near the Water Source, we see that Hallet is infected inside the Juggernaught's Cargo Hold and as they enter this area we can see Water, and it appears the Juggernaught may have crashed on top of a Stream running down the Mountain, so Mold and Moss has grown inside and eventually evolved into those Spores.

The only Logical Theory i have is that some Urns that were never dropped had tipped over the Black Goo contents during the Crash, and this infected the areas of Moss and Entered the Stream and worked its way down to where Ledwood was infected.

But the finding of those Spores on the Trees, means its likely the Bombardment left particles of Black Goo that infected Mold/Moss that must have Harbinged Fungi that got Evolved into those Neomorph Spores.

BigDave Your pics nail how the derelict and egg silo were off. All one has to do is look at those three pics for an idea of scale. Yep, production ran out of time and money and we got what we got.

Quite how it will connect when Ridley Scott has finished is anyone's guess, we have to assume he is going for without David stepping foot on Planet 4 and Creating those Eggs, there would be NO Eggs on the Derelict on LV-426

A lot sadly comes down to OVERSIGHT with Appearance and Scale, we just have to Suspend Believe at times, the same as the Space Jockey compared to the Engineers, the same as the difference between those Planet 4 Engineers and the ones in Prometheus.  It really shows a incoherent lack of Detail and going back to the Source Material (ALIEN) unfortunately.

But while there are visual things that dont add up, or things that appear in the Movies i guess they are free and open for debate... and so as we can see the Cargo Hold wont fit, we have to accept it does, assume Engineers have the same Dimensional transcendentalism that Dr Who's Tardis has.

Or indeed ponder the theory that its a Separate Cave/Egg Silo the Derelict had landed on.

The same applies with the Alien Covenant Xenomorph, there are some clues in the Work-shop which suggest and show the Classic Egg, Face Hugger and Chest Buster, do we have to consider these as legitimate clues? If so then it would push us towards David simply Evolving or Re-Creating the Xenomorph.

A Problem with  this would be how FOOLISH are the Engineers to Store those Eggs within/under the Cathedral Central Building? But then this place could well be a Ritual Sacrificial Place so it leaves it open for debate.

Regarding the Deacon, and the Neomorphs its clear these are a result of the Black Goo, but we do have the Fresco's with that Creature next to the Engineer and another shot of what appears to be this Creature holding a Xenomorph Egg.... so chances are the Engineers had encountered the Eggs prior or a Organism that could Lay/Produce those Eggs or Ancestors to them.

This is a interesting Topic to come back to in regards to since Alien Covenant came out...

I will first tackle the Origins of the Cargo Hold, when working on the earlier drafts to Alien, there was supposed to be a separate Pyramid and Derelict Ship and the Cargo of Eggs was inside the Pyramid, during Production HR Giger had came in to design the Derelict and Pyramid which HR Giger now replaced with a Giant Egg Silo.  Due to budget restraints they had to combine the work done on the Egg Silo and make it appear as if it was part of the Derelict Ships Cargo.

This is why the Scale was off, and HR Giger envisioned the Egg Silo/Cargo Hold Created the Eggs.

The Problem is HR Giger had already done concept work for the Egg Silo and Derelict and proceeded with building the Props/Matt Background Paint Scene.   It would have cost even more money to Re-Shoot/Re-do either the Derelict or Egg Silo/Cargo Hold and thus we have the Scale Problem.

Ridley Scott had came along to clear things up and said that INDEED the Egg Chamber was the Derelicts Cargo Hold.  Even though there was no way it would fit.

I have taken one of the best shots of the Derelict Prop and Re-sized the Vaginal Openings to Match the size with the Juggernauts and overlaid the Derelicts opening and central Space Jockey Chamber/Pilot Room.

The Boxes in GREEN and RED show the Maximum size of the Cargo Hold as in Height Relative to the Highest Point of Entry that Kane could have taken from the Space Jockey Seat Platform, as you can see there is no way the Cargo Hold Fits.

I have scaled the Derelicts openings to scale with the Nostromo Crew, in relation to the size of Kane in RED coming down into the Egg Chamber and so this gives a APPROX guide to the Derelict compared to just the portion of the Cargo Hold we see.

dk/Dark Nebula - Thanks for the images.

Yes, If I know correctly, that fungus-idea is included in Covenant as well.

If you look at the chart I included, fungus has the role of the (first) host in this process.

Nice catch, the eggs sacks are very similar to Lycoperdon pyriforme puffball fungi, that also when poped releases spores into the air (well not the ones that cause neomorphs to grow inside the abdomen).

VID:

https://youtu.be/7dUbNr2mjGY

dk - It can be said they have the same role.

Those were shown so quickly I missed them while watching- nice grabs!

Interestingly, other members have observed their similarities in appearance to the egg silo:

Still from Blade Runner 2049:

Chili, it could be that everything was bigger on the derelict than what RS wanted for the prequels. Example the Engineers are much smaller in the prequels than Alien. 

Also, that picture does appear to be curved if you look in the background.

Profound comparison, BigDave, thank you.

The Covenant scene in which the protomorph attacks the crane makes me think that the xeno is the better version. I believe David thinks the same...

Thank you for the link, daliens.

'Disney please give us some good news!'

I think they won't announce anything relevant until May.

At the moment they are facing the disaster caused by Ryan Johnson's The Last Jedi. The have to solve that problem first.

Not only is the hatchery too big to be a part of the derelict, it’s very warm (like in the tropics, Kane says), it’s curved (not straight) and as far as I have seen in the films, a juggernaut has only one floor, Critters5? The cargo holds we have seen are much smaller, not so high and they seem to have been situated on the same floor as the pilot room?

Well, we have seen eggs before the one in David’s lab, daliens - in the mural. Long ago, they might have used abducted female humans or sacrificed female engineers? The answer to how there can be so many eggs - many thousands it seems, might be that they have had plenty of time, perhaps hundreds or thousands of years to produce them? Or, as you suggest, there is a queen?

@ Daliens

In the Alien Covenant novelization David told Oram he found some dead egg on planet 4 and he only replicated it. But this is not in the movie, not even as a deleted scene.

There is one deleted scene “Stairs to Eggroom”  (extended). I’m not sure how much attention has been given to this, but what strikes me about this scene is the fact that David gives Oram a lavender smelling scent which is taken from a receptacle on the wall.  What I find odd is why David would have need for it? and more to the point was it David that put it there ? This suggests to me that the eggs where already in the egg room before David came to the planet. This I think is why the scene was deleted, but on the theatrical release of AC the receptacles are still to be seen on the wall.

If that's a cave and not a cargo hold it pretty much changes everything. 

Are there any Ridley comments on what exactly this area is? If it is a silo and not part of the ship this makes it even harder to connect AC to Alien especially if Disney gives RS only 1 rushed movie. 

Critters5 That's what I thought at first way back when until I got looking at the ship and cave. The sizes just don't match imo. Then I read somewhere that the cave was actually the egg silo but the Alien movie ran out of time and resources to really show it.

Could it just be the bottom hull of the entire ship? I never thought about it possibly being too large to be part of the ship. But I still feel like it is. 

BAFTA Awards - James Ivory wins

Best Adapted Screenplay for Call Me By Your Name.

The trilobite and then the Deacon came from the pathogen via human hosts. The dead engineers from lv223 did not see any eggs either.

The first eggs we see in David's lab and basement.

I would prefer that the eggs from Alien have a different origin than David's. And they are so many, they imply the existence of a queen or some artificial mass production,  something David is not yet able to do.

I really hope they will give us some answers.

The PM chestburster seems more vulnerable than the neomorph. The Deacon too. Since no parents are around to protect them they should be able to run and hide until they can defend themselves.

daliens: Yes, I know. In Foster's novelization David explicitly says that he isn't the creator but that he wishes to imitate and perfect what the engineers had accomplished aeons ago. But, sadly, in the movie, they took the route that David is the creator (which is quite absurd really given the mural, the trilobite, the deacon, the chestbursted engineers on LV-223 etc). If there will be another movie connecting the prequels to Alien, they might, of course, change this again. I think it's quite easily done. They just have to turn it into David, in his megalomania (seeing himself as God and creator) is delusional (he is clearly malfunctioning). The engineers had created the mutagen and xenomorph-like creatures ages ago but seeing the madness of it, had stopped with it.

I agree with most of the criteria, but I would go with the Proto xenomorph chestburster. The classic chestburster is born snake-like and after it bursts from its host it scurries away until it reaches its adult form. The proto-xenomorph chestburster was much like the neomorph bloodburster, which was already born with arms, legs and spiky tail so I would assume it would be capable of defending itself.

Thanks for this analysis  BigDave.

IMO XM is superior to PM.

I remember that deleted scene before XM got Brett, it was swinging in some kind of a ritual, like Brett was chosen in that moment for egg morphing. 

The PM would have banged his head against the walls and mindlessly killed everyone.

XM seemed slower but all the more frightening.