Comments (Page 447)
Latest comments by Alien fans on news, forum discussions and images!
daliens That number 8 position does not mean box office success nor critical acclaim, nor fanbase support. It is another proof that the Alien brand is still alive and of how active the fanbase still is, even if just to bash the movie (we agree on this). That is why it is so disappointing that Ridey Scott seems to be willing to deprive this healthy franchise from all excitement by removing the Alien element from it.
very interesting ideas guys
What the hell is hate wave? People don't like for no reason whatsoever but being loud just for kicks? It was not bigger than after Prometheus or now Star wars, if such a thing even exist.
I said it many times, I've seen it only because I like Prometheus and as a continuation I felt utterly let bout the lack of care to continue anything, it was only a sloppy reboot. And If I was I would not have high expectations for anything Disney.
would agree IT being number 1 though only my opinion
ur theory is def an interesting one BD but what I took from the morphing scene was both Brett and Dallas were becoming eggs. u have to wonder how many times a single xeno can morph a host into an egg, which may also answer the question why it killed Lambert and Parker and the theory held by many that it went onto the escape shuttle to die would also support this. it may not have had the energy left for the process and was reducing the risk towards the eggs which would logically be its goal. it would view the rest of the crew as threats to the eggs esp as they were not fully formed. we also have to remember when the film was made, no thought had been given to sequels let alone exploring the xeno life stages in any great detail. but I would say the eggs r able to sit in stasis/hybernation for quite a length of time so the xeno may not have been thinking about hosts. its primary goal was to eliminate the threat to the eggs and possibly leave one alive (Ripley) as a host and rely on others stumbling onto the ship and finding the eggs to later be used as hosts.
as I said I believe 2 eggs were being produced and my thinking is in several parts. when establishing a nest/ colony, is it wise to spawn a queen at such an early stage? id say not as if a queen is spawned from Dallas and the xeno dies, she has no protection and if the queen dies, well that's it really. surely ud want the nest to be functioning and have a healthy number of xeno's to provide protection for a newly birthed queen. in alien, as many believe, the xeno was dying so if ur theory is correct, the queen would have spawned from Dallas and would be totally unprotected. so we start out with 1 drone in alien. it has the energy to morph 2 hosts into eggs. it dies yet u get 2 face huggers which doubles the number of xeno's. the 2 drones then repeat the process and so on. theres nothing to suggest that the eggs cant remain in a dormant state. in fact, if the eggs are just a variation of the motes, then as David states, the eggs could remain dormant indefinitely till disturbed, again explaining why the xeno at the end of alien kills Lambert and Parker. theres no rush for hosts but they r threats to the eggs if they discover them before they are fully formed. this adds to the xeno's danger level. time wont kill them off and if there is just 1, a nest can be established. once the morphing process has been repeated a few times, u have sufficient protection and enough xeno's to construct a healthy hive and thus a queen can be berthed in relative safety to start mass production of eggs.
Agreed. Is is however good to see Alien Covenant made it to the top of the most searched for movies in 2017, it gives me hope for the future of the franchise. And while Wonder Woman and IT were praised and thus the interest for them was raised, Alien Covenant had to run against the biggest hate wave of all the franchise. I still don't get all that hatred, never will.
That's all from me this year. I tried to be optimistic and bring some good news for the Christmas. And the New Year.
Wish you all a very enjoyable festive Season and happiness and good health in 2018!
Let's hope they will start filming soon.
@Dark Nebula
Checked out their Page, its a bit uncanny some of the stuff is as described to me a bit. What is more interesting is i looked at their Webpage for other Projects and seen that Kang-Le 14 is not there Signature, but its changes with Projects so like Kang-Le 13... This implies the Images was made in 2014, if so its more than Coincidence some depict things we see in AC that never even began Filming until 2 years latter.
Would be interesting to see if they are a actual Concept Artist working for movies or they just make their own Fan Art for upcoming movies, but then the Alien Covenant ones are signed 14 for we can assume 2014 but then why is the page AC when that name did not exist pre Autumn 2015
Quality vise this list is meaningless, it only says which were the most searched after movies of 2017. Of course, an Alien would be highly searched because of brand Recognition. Star Wars is not there because it was just released.
I for one, from that list, I liked only Split.
Let's hope Disney will notice that Alien Covenant made it to the top ten of the most consistently popular film with IMDb users in 2017, so the interest for the franchise was and still is high. Even among the haters.
Sorry to Hijack ;)
The Source explained ONE of the Monsters then i think they was meaning ONE of these TWO Alien 3 concepts merged with ONE of these TWO Alien ones, but they added the Organism was Pale and Transparent to a degree and had only Spines on its back.
When i look at combing these images with some of the other clues in the description i can see something similar to some of the NOT used AC Concepts, and indeed not to far off our Neomorphs... The Source seemed to hint instead of Xenomorphs we would have had a Ultramorph looking Monster and another Monster thats related loosely to those 4 concepts but which mixture of which two? With pale transparent (to a degree) skin and Spines. All passed on before we saw anything about AC
Oh forgot to say in other post... the other clue given was One had No Eyes, the other kind of had Eyes. Again at this time when saying details like one has this the other has that, they never said it as in, one is pale, transparent, has no eyes etc.. so i was left to think which traits belongs to which one etc.. But latter at a time prior to AC Trailers they confirmed one was going to be the Ultramorph design the other like a redesign on a hybrid cross of a New Born Concept in Alien 3 and Gigers Original Design for Alien.
I think another reason in part is RS maybe not pleased how it looked, i think he had a better vision for how this scene should have looked, and i agree the Scene did not affect pacing to me either..
But it would have added some Time to the Theatrical Run-time and cutting down movies to get to a desired Run-time happens quite a bit with Movies.
Indeed this is interesting.... but do we know if Khang Le worked on any Alien Covenant Project?
I want to see the early drafts so i can see if the Source was correct, a lot of stuff i had to hold back but informed Chris way before AC was out, they loosely describe the look of the TWO monsters to me, but months ago they had confirmed a bit more saying the ORIGINAL idea was One would be like the Ultramorph (Necronom 4) design and the other would be a hybrid cross between Gigers Original Design (not the final one in Alien) and unused New Born concept from Alien 3, and when i look back to the desription of the Monsters given to me way before AC was announced, which was May as far as descriptions but other information as far as there will be TWO monsters one based on Necronom 4 the other on the Original Design (One would be Transparent to a degree) was way back in FEB 2015, in beginning of MAY they just detailed the designs but in a loose puzzle way. Where they basically said like one is dark like the Xenomorph, the other is pale and kind of transparent, one has a more elongated head (than the Xenomorph) the other a shorter more bulbous head, one has Dorsel Tubes, one has just Spines etc (i can pass the exact description how they listed it).
So anyway yes a lot of the Source information seemed more than Coincidence, including remember in March i said about Shaws Fate/Role and what she was depicted as... then low and behold the AC concepts show exactly that.
So indeed it would be interesting to wonder what the earlier Drafts was about, and any work, but the Source said at the time they had information November-Dec 2014 the Concept works were mainly rough, and rough story like boards as far as just the Process of Brain Storming what was in the October 2014 Prometheus: Pandemonium draft into how it would visually look.
I think the hints from the Source could seem to apply to the LV-223 Engineers being Genetic Engineered Clones Grown like in the Matrix by those above them.... Interesting thing is the Source claimed about many versions of Mankind and we are the 4th/5th Generation and it appeared they was hinting Engineers are related to us but predate us, but those LV-223 Engineers they claimed were more like David and not us.
since we have AC came out a long time after this information... and RS saying the Planet 4 Engineers were the ORIGINAL Engineers and they look so much Human, which RS said Engineers are not a RACE but a Civilization and also said after AC about how there are many versions of Mankind why cant it be the same with them (Engineers) Then the sources information adds up, could the LV-223 Engineers be Genetically Enhanced Creations of those Original Engineers?
If so the LV-223 Engineers are indeed just Biological Davids created by the Planet 4 Engineers.
i will add my theory for the Egg Morph has always been maybe its the way to create a Queen, because to me it makes Perfect Sense to explain the Xenomorphs Actions in ALIEN then.
If the AGENDA is Procreate which it clearly was in Alien but not clearly shown with the Cutting out of the Egg Morph Scene, then we have to look at it this way.
Capturing TWO Hosts in Alien means one of TWO things..
1) We end up with TWO Eggs, thus potentially another TWO Xenomorphs once a Host comes close to those Eggs.
2) We get ONE Egg and ONE Host (Dallas) this would Produce ONE Xenomorph.
But then why not capture Lambert and Parker too? This would mean either 4 Egg Morphs or 2 Egg Morphs and 2 Hosts so the Ship would have TWO Xenomorphs plus the Original One, or 4 awaiting Eggs and the Original Xenomorph?
HOWEVER.... and here is/was my theory, If the EGG-MORPH leads to a Face Hugger Type Organism that implants a Queen Embryo into Dallas, then when this QUEEN is born, it can prehaps lay endless Eggs on the Ship with the Original Xenomorph there as a Guard. Or even if it dies due to a limited Life-Span, the Queen from Dallas could maybe Produce Countless Eggs.
So this theory makes Perfect Sense for the Xenomorphs Agenda and why only ONE Egg Morph and ONE Host was required.
I think Egg Morphing is a interesting concept, i had mentioned in a post i made a while back regarding how the Eggs on the Derelict looked like a Cabbage Patch, but then i went on to mention how Cabbages Procreate so to speak, in which Dead Cabbages and Parts of Cabbages will reform into New Cabbages. They in effect Clone themselves from Dead Material.
I find this interesting in context of Alien as discussed in my Topic...
Many months latter we got AC and after this we had RS mention that the Xenomorph killed by being crushed with the Landers Claw would Regenerate... This left Fans thinking WTF how can a Xenomorph that so severely damaged Regenerate.... yes this would be a bit lame and well to far fetched.
But not if its like Cabbages as in my months earlier Topic... Where i pondered and suggested what if when a Xenomorph Dies, its body eventually breaks down and then a Egg forms from it. Now when i look at RS Regenerate comment i think if this means parts of the Xenomorph will form into new Eggs, then this would be interesting....
This also applies to the Egg Morph if the Process that would allow for a Xenomorph to regrow maybe as in a Egg, we have to look at what makes this possible and could a Xenomorph pass on what ever Process would do this onto other Organisms, thus killing them but turning their Genetic Material into Eggs?
I think as a Engineered Bio-Weapon for Perfection, a Xenomorph that has a certain life-span and then dies but its body decomposes into a mass that then evolves into a Egg, would certainly make for a PERFECT Weapon.... A Self Procreating with a Queen one, and a long life span would prove to not be Perfect.
So seeing the Black Goo or Xenomorphs being able to Morph Hosts would be interesting.
@ali81
I will attempt to cover what the clues/plans for the Engineers are as far as the Evolution of there Story, these points are the intentions of Jon Spaights and Ridley Scott and how they have changed.
*The Inception was a Humanoid Race who traveled the Cosmos Seeding Worlds, visiting their Creations and Nurturing them, while no explanations for why was given. We did get told these Ancient Beings had lost the Ability to Procreate and they had to find other more inventive means to Reproduce. These Engineers used a Sacrificial Ritual to Seed/Splice their DNA to Evolve Organisms to take on their DNA.
*The set up was then to also tell of how Mankind had Proved a Disappointment to the Engineers, we ended up not being what they thought we would be, we had become rebellious, sinful and cruel and so the Engineers partook in the Experimentation on Organisms to Create the Perfect Bio-Weapon to Punish their Wayward Children.
*It was implied the Engineers have very long Life-Expectancy
*Prometheus did not change much of these concepts, only it showed a Sacrificial Scene taking place much early in History, and chose to not cover as much detail as far as various Xenomorph related Creatures.
*Ridley Scott spoke of the Engineers as Gardeners of Space.
*RS spoke of the Sacrificial Scene is not the only way they can create Life its just the way they Choose.
*RS Mentioned the Scene was like Ancient Sacrificial Rituals where a Sacrifice would be selected, made a Prince for a year then Sacrificed to appease the Gods, so they can have a better Harvest the Next year. (we have to be careful what we read into this, but at very least the Engineers view this as a Important Event and the Outcome of this is of great Benefit to their Species/Culture).
*RS said the Sacrificial Scene does not have to be on Earth it could be anywhere, this implies the Engineers perform this Ritual on many worlds.
*RS has said the Engineers periodically came back to Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically which no doubt means the Process to get to Mankind was one that needed Evolutionary Intervention by the Engineers and once Mankind was the result they also further tinker with our Genetics as well as pass on Knowledge.
*RS ponders are we the only Humans/Humanoids could there be many more.
*RS mentioned regarding the Elders that they was the Hierarchy/Order of the Society/Culture
*RS mentioned that he did not wish to meet GOD in the first movie, when talking about the removal of the Elders Scene. This could mean their is another Race above the Engineers, or that their Ancestors/Elders are the Gods.
Moving on...
*RS had on countless occasions referred to the Engineers as Fallen Angels, this depends how we view them in this context, this is ambiguous but likely can mean only TWO things or maybe both, this is the Engineers (but which ones) have/are performing Actions that Go Against the Agenda/Plans of there Species/Culture or their Creators, Much like Lucifer and the Fallen Angels. It could also just be to reflect the Engineers are just a Sinister Race who perform Sinister/Wicked Plans.
*RS implied the Engineers created the Bio-Weapons on LV-223 to Punish/Eradicate any potentially problematic Creations and we had seriously upset them hence our planned destruction.
*RS did mention the Jesus element but the context of this is the Engineers would send down Emissaries to try and warn/change our ways that are offending the Engineers, but we ignored these and killed the Emissaries, thus they had no choice but to Finally Put a Stop to our Race.
Moving on....
*RS had mentioned the Engineers do-not come from LV-223 but that those Engineers in Prometheus (but he could mean all Engineers) come from a Place we would regard as Paradise. I think its likely RS was more likely to be talking about the Biblical One, but then he could mean the Paradise as far as where the Honorable/Chosen go.
*RS mentions that Paradise could be a connotation of a very dark world, the context of this again is likely dark as in Sinister/Malevolent
*RS mentions that David and Shaw will discover beings but the beings they discover are not GODS not in the Traditional Sense, and they are far from Benevolent
*RS again refers to the Engineers as Fallen Angels, and brings up Paradise Lost book in context to the Engineers.
Moving on.... after the gap of no news, until AC announcement
*RS mentions previous stuff regarding Fallen Angels again, but then he also further explains that he feels the Fallen Angels in the Paradise Lost Book had the most fun.
*RS mentions you have ONE guy who is attractive who gets all the girls, goes to all the parties. While ANOTHER guy is not as attractive and sits at home all day being boring, the context of this is reference to the antics the Fallen Angels get up to in Paradise lost, vs God and his Angels staying in Heaven.
*RS then proposes that if the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then what makes Worlds being able to Support Life in the First Place, where is the BIG GUY, he further goes on to suggest are events like the Big Bang purely a accident, even saying Stephen Hawkings doubts it was just a random event. In context RS is hinting (IMO) that the Process of Manipulation of Worlds is not Natural but Controlled.
*RS mentions that there could be many different races/kinds just as we have with Mankind, he implied this by saying just as their are many races of Man, why cant that be the same for them (Engineers)
Moving on.... to after AC/during those who visited the Sets
*RS mentions the Hall of Heads are the wise men, the apostles and superior beings (wise could mean Ancient/Elders, apostles implying they are the keepers of the Order/Culture and Ritual way of their kind, the Superior beings is interesting... Superior to who? Engineers? or Mankind?
*Another member of Production referred the Hall of Heads as the Hierarchy
*RS mentions again the Engineers are Gardeners of Space
*RS also calls those Planet 4 Engineers the ORIGINAL Engineers.
*RS also mentions they live for about 150 years.
*RS brings up the maybe many races of Engineers/Mankind again.
*RS mentions the Engineers are NOT a Race but are a Civilization.
*RS brings up that Engineers return to Planet 4 Periodically.
These are all the Official Clues/Comments Ridley Scott has mentioned over the years, we cant say how much he has changed on who the Engineers are over the years, it appears a bit has changed and so comments made etc prior to AC maybe cant be 100% taken as what is now the Deal with these guys, i think i have covered most and i may have missed a few related comments by RS and other Production.
We can look at these and use them maybe along with Visual Clues in the Franchise as well as Plot reveals in the Prequels to maybe try and figure out what the Deal with the Engineers are. I would be very interested in hearing or seeing what the Original Prometheus 2 plans was, and what Paglen and Green Drafts had in them... Then i could confirm if the Source i had was correct or just made up. Its interesting however that what they hinted at in early 2015, RS had made comments 6-7 months after and since that seem to match what they had said. In regards to a number of things, inc Many Previous Races of Mankind/Humanoids, the Manipulation of Worlds via Technology and more.
@Michelle
Totally agree with all of those points, i have studied those a lot and have some rough ideas/theories on what could be the answers, indeed i was going to address them when working on a Prometheus 2/3 story, i came to a sticky point with how to fit the Xenomorph into this, as i had 2-3 ideas but could not think of the Perfect one to use without conflicting other aspects of the Engineers Background, likewise the other sticking point was the ladder of Creation, it was easy to cover the Hierarchy above those Engineers but the sticking point was wondering who is above it all, how many layers of creation/creator are a both them and what would those at the Top Be, Humanoid, Alien looking a MACHINE? The 3rd sticking point was the reason for our creation which again i had 2-3 ideas and so i had 2-3 ideas for each of these THREE things which means 6-9 different things that i just could not figure a way to get them to work together as i liked all the options, but it was the case of saying ok.... so the reason for the Xenomorph i go for option 2/3 for why we was created i go for option 1/3 and for who/what is at the Top of the Chain of Creation i go for 3/3 but i could just never settle on matching these up... BECAUSE the Wealth of Options was so VAST that i could not conclude which path to take and you cant follow them all.
This is also what i THINK the writers for a Prometheus Sequel had Faced, the options are vast, its hard to narrow down what to cover and in which way, and so with ALIEN COVENANT the way the Engineers was handled was like pushing them to the side rather than attempt to cover what could be a POISONED CHALICE
Some of my ideas based on theories and trying to Tie in the Mythical, Philosophical and Religious connections i think are interesting, the first movie PROMETHEUS and RS comments sent me down a Path, of ideas/theories that i think AC in part could also allude too. The SCOPE is EPIC and you can see what RS was trying to do, but Sadly FOX just felt that Narrowing the Story to the Xenomorph and taking a Direct route closer to Alien is what Fans wanted to see and what would make more $$$$ i think for FOX Alien Covenant has been a EPIC Disappointment, i think when they was looking at the Final Parts of Production, the editing/cutting they (FOX/RS) must have felt this movie could surpass Prometheus in Reception and Financial Return.
THERE IS.... a Story to be Told, certainly looking at the points in your last post Michelle there is enough Food for Thought to explore this, and this kind of Direction is something Interesting it could be something Very Different to most Movies and something DISNEY could produce that would not need excessive GORE and stuff and so a Movie about the Engineers would easy be done for a PG-13 we dont need Texas Chainsaw Massacre Blood and Guts... to tell the Engineers Tale.
Ati I can see the SJ head at the top, but the rest leaves a lot to interpretation. I can see a torso and limbs for instance- even a possible phallus. I think we can interpret a lot the more we look at it, and that is what makes it an interesting piece.
ali81 It has been discussed that both methods could work- the Queen method works when enough hosts are present while the egg morph method works for a lone Alien when few or no hosts are present basically. I like the egg morph since it seems more mysterious and sinister.
After all of the great scripts that have been passed up, I'm thinking RS is just flying by the seat of his pants with plans that change from movie to movie. He needs to go.
@BigDave If I'm not mistaken, you also mentioned back in 2015 that some concept artwork seemed like the matrix, like how the humanity was grown and kept in stasis. These Khang Le's art pieces depict that
dk, agreed about the egg morphing scene. I understand why it was left out originally but it didn't take anything away from the final act in the directors cut.
personally id like a morphing scene. I like both the morphing and queen and believe they both exist but my preference is morphing. its more personally violating and horrific to think about
personally, it looks like wer back to square 1 where the engineers are concerned. in Prometheus, it was heavily suggested they created human life on earth, regardless of what planet the opening scene is, RS is implying to the audience these beings are responsible for our civilisation. even implying through Shaw and Holloway they return and interact with early human civilisations. now it seems some doubt has been cast on whether they are indeed responsible for our creation. in truth, we know nothing of them and have been given absolutely no concrete insight into them. what screen time theyv been given has been short and they don't come off in a good light in any way. they look weak. but is this on purpose or is Ridley deliberately been saving them the latter instalments? or has he changed his mind on them altogether? everyone is equally entitled to their opinion and im liking some of the ideas ppl r mentioning regarding them such as BD's theory they have stolen their technology. theyv stolen from the gods and now r paying the price for it. im starting to think Ridley's idea for them is for them to be king's and as Vickers says, 'all kings have their day, they reign, and then they die'. has their time come and Ridley is showing a 'passing of the torch' from engineer to mankind? however he is using them I still believe they have been misused so far and I for one want to see more of them. I want to see their connection to the xeno and the goo, afterall, these were the very reasons Ridley returned. id like to think the reason they don't appear or get mentioned in the other alien movies is they leave into the depths of space, either to regroup or they have realised man is too dangerous a foe to go up against. only once all the prequels r done will we know if they have been used well or not but as it stands, I think theyv been wasted. id like to really see their full might either in a flashback or shown by returning engineers.
@ BigDave
My two points were broad strokes. But Pietro has said that they did not go far enough in exploring the Paradise Lost narrative of LV223. Put simply and I have said this many times we needed two answers at the end of Prometheus :-
1) Why did they create us only to destroy us.
2) What did LV223 represent and how did it relate to the opening scene.
With Covenant we have a third question
3) How does the population of Paradise relate function to the seeding process.
None of these absolutely fascinating questions have been answered.
There are three very interesting answers if you wish to pursue such a path.
1) The Engineers believe life is based on a mechanical construct gifted to them but they only see a fragment of the truth which can remain for us to ponder.
2) As a result of 1 they began sub creating having corrupted/stolen the fire and were punished, LV223 represents Paradise Lost out of which the pathogen comes and represents endless punishment.
3) Their rebellion is rooted in their rejection of their sacrificial role and desire to sub create. Indeed the Alien Life cycle could have been created as a mockery of the sacrificial ritual.
4) Their reason for destroying us is a punishment for our rejection of a mechanical creation myth in favour of the divine mind over matter creation myth which the great prophets represent. This idea was at the root of some rejected dialogue from John Logan's script where David explains that his mechanical construction is part of the central narrative of creation rather than the mythos of a benignly created natural evolution which mankind follows which is a delusion.
All of this has been swept under the carpet whether we will see glimpses of this kind of thinking in more movies is I think unlikely and the focus will run parallel to the pre occupations of Blade Runner 2049 except that if another movie is made Davids fate will be central and will represent a comment on sub created A. I.
Have a great Christmas/New Year Ati
Thanks for all the greats shares!!
The reason he hadn't applied the technology earlier is because he had to wait until a ship passed into that system.
Cool video. They really give them flutes?
Fair play to her, its nice to see her getting more breaks now.
I actually know her lol Joke.. just i know someone who looks a lot like her
Prometheus had a number of Problems, Characters were not used as much as they was in other Alien Movies, and yes we have our Characters who are there for just limited purpose... Take FORD (Katie Dickie) she also played (in SW EP8) a member of General Hux Team in a small role on the Bridge of one of the New Order Star Ships, this limited role is the same as her role in Prometheus... Where Prometheus Failed was more important Characters were not Developed well and had some issues... yes we had some not pleased with Fifield and Milburn, but Ultimately it was that Holloway, Shaw, Weyland, Vickers, and to a degree Ravel and Chance (not as important Characters) were not really that well done... or Acted to well either. Only David and Janek stood out as being well Written and Done.
But indeed their was back lash regarding the Engineers, not so much the appearance but the whole going down the route of them being Our Creators and playing the Ancient Aliens Card... this disappointed a percentage of Fans.
The Next Disappointment i feel for most fans, was there was no ALIENS so to speak, by that we dont mean NO Xenomorphs, but no actual Aliens killing and hunting down people... We only had the Hammerpede Attack and then Not so Alien Zombie Fifield, replacing the Xenomorphs of Alien/Aliens. Yes we got the Deacon but because it never did anything it upset Fans... It would be like if AC was a longer movie, where there was NO Neomorph infections until latter and the Gestation was longer and it came out on the ship but was stuck in the Med Pay until some of the Crew Returned and it escaped got shot at and Blew the Ship up, killing say 5-6 members of the Cast instead. Then we see David infects Oram, and kills Rosenthal.
Then on the Covenant David kills Ricks and Upworth and we see Oram Chest Burst and see the same Chest Buster and then we get the Credits.... Fans would be like WTF!!!!
so i think Prometheus got a lot of Flack for no Actual Aliens, not No Xenomorphs..
The other Problem is fans expected the movie to be a Prequel so we would START to uncover HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph was Created and HOW it got to the Derelict on LV-426... and Prometheus did not provide many fans enough Answers, and when they heard a sequel was to not give them but explore the Engineers more, there was a bit more Back Lash!
And then Finally you had some Fans, who wanted more Direct Clues/Prequel to Alien and see Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters Xenomorphs... how did the Eggs get on the Derelict? a Queen?
so there was a lot for Fans to Complain about... and Blomkamps Alien 5 gained a lot of interest..
So FOX Felt.. Hang On... we needed to bring in (1) A Alien Monster Threat (2) Explain how the Xenomorph Eggs was Created in the First Place (3) Show the Xenomorph in some stage of its Evolution (4) maybe distance from the Engineers would-be Gods and Shaw and her Questions.
Ridley Scott was so pleased with Fassbender and the David Character, that he felt he still needed to be the Center of this next movie and throw the Curve-ball of David Creating the Xenomorph with the Engineers Bio-Weapon and for the purpose of pursuing his own Creation/Playing God and using it against Mankind who he felt bitter against.
"In upper-class English accent:
“Excuse me sir Xeno I am very sorry but I have orders to make you into soup if you don't mind”"
Ha ha that sounds more like David... boy i bet thats something to not look forwards to a movie of Davids.. but i dont think we would have had that, but we dont know where Disney would take this Franchise WHEN they decide to invest into it.
I think we can just Pray we get more ALIEN Movies and Disney Realize this Franchise is different to what they have, no point making it more Avatar, Guardians of the Galaxy, Star Wars or X-Men etc... Alien Franchise and Predator offer something DIFFERENT and should be kept that way.
If Disney try and make them more younger base Friendly, then they will end up with movies to similar to what they already have and doing this will ALIENATE (pun intended) the Alien Fanbase, and do little to attract New Fans if the movies are similar to those others Disney has, because they will ultimately prefer those already done (Star Wars, Avatar etc).
If we managed to Push Alien Covenant as a Cert 15/R i am sure while some may want a bit more Gore, i think what Alien Covenant had done would do for the Franchise, i also feel not much changes would be needed to have got most of the Franchise movies NOWADAYS into a Cert 15/R
ALIEN was only Scary, because it was the First Time we saw the Gruesome Life-Style but mainly it was the way the movie was done, pitting a Crew (short in numbers) with not the right Experience and Equipment to deal with a Xenomorph, on a Dimly Lit Claustrophobic Space Ship, against a Alien Monster that kept to the Shadows and was not shown too much, who the Dark Narrow Corridors and Spaces of the Nostromo Suited the Alien to the Ground...
The Problem is Some fans liked the Adventure Elements some movies showed, some liked the Philosophy Elements, some likes the Action of some of the movies and some liked the more confined Horror..
So how do you please them all?
This is the Big Problem the Franchise Faced... Alien Covenant attempted to give a bit of all of the above, within such a limited time to do any of them any justice.
Looking at the Set-Up which is what has to happen next to get to ALIEN and how David is off to Origae-6 which will take over 7 years, then in terms of Alien Time Line there is a lot to happen from the aftermath of Covenant to reach Alien... and if the movie run times are not high, i think its going to be a struggle to fit this into Two movies never mind ONE..
But would Disney Invest in TWO movies hoping the First Does well?
They can attempt to change things and learn from the Changes made that gave us AC, much like the next Star Wars movie in the EP7-9 Series can learn from its mistakes with EP8 The Problem is Star Wars movie still made money.
If Alien Covenant made $400-500M despite its flaws FOX/RS would have seen it a Success and continued the same Formula with the Next movie, DISNEY'S Problem with the Alien Franchise is they have picked up a Poisoned Chalice of sorts.
Do they try and give us ONE movie to Alien, and have the events between Alien Covenant and this movie simply by-passed like we did in AC as far as the 10 years between Prometheus and Alien Covenant..
so basically a Company Ship arrives on Origae-6 say in the year 2115 and discover the Colony has been over-ran by Xenomorphs, or they discover only Eggs... but this sets up a kind of Aliens flick... Then Engineers arrive at some point... We can get clues and Narration to what happened with David between AC and setting up a Colony on Origae-6 and then it being overcome by Davids Creation...
This Flick would by-pass the Next Planned Movie, and then could Directly Tie with ALIEN and i would not rule out THIS kind of flick, if the ALIEN Franchise is on hold for 5 or more years.
But would doing this please every fan? I am sure some fans looking forwards to what happens next after Alien Covenant would be as disappointed as those wanting to know what happens when David and Shaw arrive on Planet 4/Paradise... which all we ended up with was by-passing this event. Apart from some answers and a flash back
Or Does DISNEY set up a TWO MOVIE plan but then find the First of this, disappoints and then it leaves them basically committed to carry on and risk MONEY on the Final Part or to simply not bother and leave the Franchise in Limbo....
ANOTHER thing to consider is MONEY... sure Alien Covenant could have done with a extra 40 mins and extra $50M Budget... Would Disney be prepared to invest about $150-160M (plus Inflation) on the Next Movie? They would if they FEEL they could make back $350-400M if they feel it may not make $300M i think they would either NOT bother or use a much Lower Budget.
"Since they were not thought of like that when they began Alien"
Who knows what little thought was given to the Space Jockey at that time, Alien was based off Star-Beast draft were what become our Space Jockeys are just a Alien Race of Space Explorers who Stumble on the Starbeast/Xenomorph and attempt to collect Samples for Study... maybe this could be explored as the Final Hubris of the Engineer Race (when they attempt to collect Davids Creation for Study)
HR Giger however seemed to imply otherwise.... while Alien gave us the Space Jockey Pilot who must have ultimately fell Folly to his own Cargo... HR Gigers concept work showed a passing resemblance to the Engineers we see in Prometheus, and a Race who appear to Self Sacrifice themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph.
The Engineers are who they are, as far as what RS has explored with Prometheus and then Alien Covenant, i think they need to introduce a more Sinister and Alien Element into the Pecking Order. HR Gigers Concepts for Alien show a Alien Bald Humanoid Race Sacrifice themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph that is created by the Derelict Ships Cargo Hold. I think if they look at HR Gigers unused Mural and its Purpose, and we then consider the Humanoids/Space Jockey are our Engineers and then we in context look at Gigers Mural and ask what is going on there... WHY and WHAT Reason... then throw something Sinister and more Alien i think this would be a more ideal way to go as far as exploring WHO Created the Engineers and for WHAT Purpose.
I can see that Michelle's actually Points in regards to how to tackle the Engineers not appearing after Alien, as indeed as she said in (1) If the Engineers Set off from Planet 4, they missions to other Worlds and back could take Thousands of Years the Engineers Navigation Systems have GALAXIES not just ours so they Travel to Vast Distances. And we dont know how long some of these Journeys Take. If we Assume the Engineers use Planet 4 as their Central Place (i dont buy this) but if we assume so, and then assume say the Engineers had like 8 ships out and about, and the Returning One in the Next Movie, is maybe just ONE or TWO who is to say that the other 6-7 Ships in our Galaxy could be so far away that by the TIME they get a report of what the Returning Ship/Ships find, and then attempt to arrive back, it could be many THOUSANDS of years.
You have to Question LV-223 though... this place was on our Door Step as far as Engineer Travel, and it appeared to have 5 Temple Complexes, we have to assume Each had at least ONE Ship... A Answer could be after they felt Mankind was a Threat they Set up LV-223 as a Outpost to Manufacture/Test Bio-Weapons to use upon Mankind... kind of a way of saying.. "Ok so this Planet has become Rogue, lets set up a Place near by to Manufacture their Destruction" The Problem i have with this is the Star Maps, this place was pointed out as far as 35'000 years ago, yet they interacted with us since then, did they decide we was a threat and then spent 30K + Years Perfecting a Weapon Against us? But why visit and interact with us?
Its why i think LV-223 was not initially a place for our Destruction... it was used as One at some Point for some Purpose which RS seemed to point to being a time when we had Offended them and Turned out to be something against their intentions or Plans... Most like because they FEARED what we could become, due to having Concerns how we turned out... These are similar to the Concerns Humans had for David Models, but instead of getting rid of AI/Synthetics they attempted to incorporate Safeguards in New Models. I think Ridley Scotts whole JESUS point was not to be Literal, but it was the Engineers attempts to do to us, what the NEW improved Less Emotion Programing that the Walter Models had.. but with Mankind it was to send EMISSARIES down to attempt to get us to Change our Ways.
To briefly again refer to Michelle's 2ND option its certainly something they have to consider, its either what she had put, or that Davids Creations got the Better of those Engineers, and maybe wiped them out as far as those within so many THOUSANDS of Light Years, or they decide to Move away from our Part of the Galaxy and concentrate on other Areas..
But i think they would still see the Threat Some Day, and i think they would do what they can in their Power to Prevent Mankind from Exploring more of the Galaxy and also Preventing Davids Creations getting into the Wrong Hands, and Destroying LV-223 so this can not happen again...
But we cant rule out some Engineers simply deciding to leave this part of the Galaxy, and be Arrogant and again Hubrsitic by thinking if they leave this part of the Galaxy and Concentrate on some place very far away, that it would be OUT OF REACH of Mankind and David.... maybe they even go "oh but before we leave lets take some Samples of that Creation to Study"
Indeed as Michelle has said but we have many options for how we can explore the Engineers, a lot depends on HOW Ridley Scott Views them and he keeps kind of changing his mind on this one, a lot depends on how Literally we take his comments and that some of them can be Vague
Like Ridley Scott called the Engineers Fallen Angels a number of times, this does not have to mean they are a more Evil Faction of a Higher Race, but certainly appears to hint they are a Race maybe who once served under a Higher Race/Being or a Hierarchy but they Rebelled and began to be more Sinister.
However again the Fallen Angel Analogy could be placed purely on the beings being Demons as in in Wicked and Cruel and Far from Benevolent. It thus could apply to them all and not mean they are a Fallen/Evil Faction of a Race.
Another thing Ridley Scott had mentioned more than most about the Engineers are they are Gardeners of Space, Genetic Gardeners if you would, but we also cant rule out them having something to do with the Manipulation of Worlds to be able to sustain Life.
I think at the time prior to Alien Covenant we had to pay a bit more attention to the above TWO points Ridley Scott had brought up over and over, i think the GARDENERS! One is Especially Interesting, well the one that Ridley Scott appears to not be changing his mind about much.
Both of Michelle's points are important to all of this.
1) Indeed the Process of Seeding such Worlds is something that takes a considerable time, Especially if we look at Science/Archeology more. The Sacrificial Scene if its intended to show what these ENGINEERS do on Worlds, appeared to be something that must have happened maybe a Billion Years ago... But certainly at least Hundreds of Thousands.... while Jon Spaights Draft implied a Event that showed the missing LINK between Primates and Early Hominids, the Prometheus One Appeared to be a much more Ancient Event. And so this is a long Investment if the AGENDA was to create and Nurture a Humanoid Species in their Likeness.
Its not a simple case of Planting a Apple Tree and Waiting for the Fruit to Grow and Ripen, a lot of in-between interactions and likely further involvement in experiments and Evolution by the Engineers would be required over a vast amount of time.
The BIG QUESTION is WHY? What Purpose to they Seed Worlds and is Humanoid Creations the END GOAL?
The Planet 4 Engineers indeed appeared to be Welcoming Back a Engineer Ship, without any concern for their SAFETY until they saw the Bombardment, we have to ask WHY they had no Fear, was it a Welcoming of the Troops back Home? I am sure on Earth after a Cold War Type Conflict that Ends the Return of a Nuclear Submarine could be Welcomed as Hero's with NO Fear of the returning Crew using one of the Nukes on the Harbor/Port? This would be a Fair Assessment, but its not one i agree on. The Engineers did have the Scorpion Shaped Docking Ship that Wayne Haag had called a Border Control that no doubt went to Intercept the Incoming Juggernaught, maybe the Engineers knew of the incoming Ship and this News Spread, because the Ship just Appeared from Jump Space/Warp or what ever not far from the City but the large crowd of Engineers amassed around the Hanger from the city which is some distance and they would have either wondered by chance in the Courtyard or had been aware a few minutes or more prior of the Return of a Engineer Ship.
Ridley Scott claimed that Engineer Ships Return to this place from time to time, and its certainly more than 10 years since the LAST ONE had arrived (with David), so we dont know how long these ships come and go, but it could be Many Years. And when we consider Ridley Scott Calls them GARDENERS i have always thought of LV-223 of more than what many interpret this Place as... I have maybe babbled on a bit to much on this Point... BUT.... What if those Engineers are Collected Periodically for Sacrifices which is seen as a Great Honor for their Species? I think this fits more with everything we had been shown prior to AC. including Ridley Scotts many comments.
2) A very Good Point... and we can ponder had similar happened in the Past? Did they Abandon us in the Past, did they make a Covenant between themselves to leave us to be and not interfere and just Write our Petr Dish off as a DUD.
If they are Genetic Gardeners, and we look at Earth as a Giant Plant Pot or some Green House they seeded, nurtured and evolved various Life on. But this one in particular (Earth) proved to be a Failure or seen as a Threat due to Mankind. If the Engineers attempted to Create a Pestiside to Clean this Plant Pot/Green House to Start Again, but the place they chose to produce this Pestiside and attempts to do so proved to back fire and be so costly to the Engineers.
Maybe they chose to abandon this Plan and Leave that Plant Pot/Green House to Rot, knowing that Mankind would prove its own Destruction and IN HUBRIS and with a Great Ego, the Engineers Felt without interaction by them, Mankind would never Evolve no More and become Stuck on Earth, and so stuck in the Plant Pot/Green House to ROT, and cant affect other Plant Pots or Green Houses the Engineers worked on.
So they maybe made some Covenant to not interfere with us, maybe similar Races to us... and MOVE on.. much like the Main Covenant in the Bible was between GOD and Noah where he Promised he would NEVER Flood the Earth Again, he made a Covenant against doing such a Destructive Event again.
These comments are more aimed at Prior to Alien Covenant however, in regards to Michelle's TWO points.
Loved The Last Jedi.
Don't know if it was the best or the worst...and don't care...that's for the children to argue about.
All I Know is, I give it the highest honor I can bestow on any work of art: Makes me glad to be alive.
@Critters5
This is a very good question, i thought i covered it but i will mention again, that this creates a kind of Continuity Error... However like we have rumors on Earth regarding Conspiracy Theories they can put it down to the company cover up any such information and contact.
But we still have to address the side of the Engineers, and so the Question you ask is ONE of the Biggest ones in the Franchise, especially if the Engineers Created us or was involved in our Evolution and visited us, and then to WANT to the Destroy us.
The Questions are...
*Do all the Engineers know of our Creation and the visits to us in the Past?
*Do all of the Engineers know of the Planned Destruction of our Species?
*Do all of the Engineers know about LV-223? And what had been going on?
*If their is a Race/Hierarchy above the Engineers are they aware of the above Questions?
IF the Answers to any/all of these are YES then we have to ASK they have not been back?
IF most of these Answers are NO, then surely some of the above will KNOW after Alien Covenant and then how would they FEEL?
I guess Regardless of any of these outcomes it would surely lead to the Engineers or those Above them to be Fully Aware of the Dangers Mankind and our Creations Pose and that we can NOW Travel the Stars and at very least via our Creations use their Technology. And so its Safe to assume they would want to Eradicate Mankind from Earth, then maybe they would next have to consider destroying LV-223 and maybe other Humanoid Races they have encountered or at very least take Regular inspections on the Progress of these worlds so that what happened with Mankind and our Synthetic Creations NEVER Happens Again.
But we are still around at the time of Aliens and more so Alien Resurrection, so we have to wonder and maybe need a explanation of what has happened to the Engineers after the Time-Line of ALIEN but especially ALIENS.
Looks like Tess's character in season 2 will be the main character(victim)lol!, who faces off with Mick, i watched season 1 on 9 free to air thinking it will be watered down, but no i was surprised, it was more dramatised, Wolf Creek 2 the movie, man! now that was graphic!
My favorite picture this far in the thread is the one with the Xenos and the broken glass. That picture reminds me of the scene in Alien Resurrection when the scientist is trying to control the Xeno with some sort of ice-mist.
“Prometheus was intended as a Prequel that would have had more Alien Franchise Connections, but then FOX decided it did not have to be much about the Xenomorph or Directly showing/telling about the Space Jockey and so it was changed a bit. The connections are there but just vaguely, then with a sequel they wanted to explore the Engineers more but again FOX felt nope... Fans did not like Engineers and needed to see the Xenomorph and how it was created and so again RS had to change direction.“
Big Dave: I think that most of the criticism was about bad characters (you can search for bad characters + Prometheus) and you will see that most of the criticism (as far as I know) was about that, not the Engineers as far as I know. Fox was totally wrong when they thought that the Engineers were the problem and that it didn't have Xenomorphs. As far as I know the lack of Xenos were not a big problem at all at least not as big as a lack of interesting characters were concerned.
When I watch Prometheus now what I have a problem with is the bad character writing or at least how they come off at screen and not the lack of Xenomorphs. I like that Prometheus did something new with the monsters and actually that is something that I think that they did good since I first first saw it. They should have looked closer at the criticism and thought about that a bit more before they decided what they should do with the movie after Prometheus.
