New Replies (Page 486)
I hope they use some of Giger's ideas if we ever see more of the Engineer's society. For me Giger is Alien and the further you go from his designs and drawings the further it feels from Alien. There is just so much they can explore with this series if they just had more imagination.
@ St.Anger
The xenomorph represents a murderous beast, this is true, but not any beast, but a psychopath.
That's why the first movie works so well, if you replace the xenomorph with any human being this one would kill one by one the crew of the ship, like a common assassin terrorizing everyone because you do not know when he will attack and you are in a reduced and claustrophobic place, he would be exactly like a beast. But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this we add what already know:
200 lbs of pure murderous power, an extraordinary agility, resistance and strength from another world, supernatural adaptation, a set of weapons at his disposal that nobody else counts.
Another attempt to shine a light on his behavioural tics. Why on earth would a grown up audience (the original audience I represent) be interested in "These disturbed psychological traits of a Xenomorph are as interesting....". This is science fiction where we use a secondary world to tell us more about ourselves. If I want a study of psychopathy as a rational intelligent human being I want to know how it works and where it comes from. The only intelligent way you can apply that to the A L I E N of 1979 is how did such a creature come about not get in so close you become a voyeur to unspeakable cruelty once removed as science fiction and invest a special effect with far to much gravitas. The only way to make the ALIEN interesting unless your celebrating its instincts is why, where and how. Ridley knew that as a well rounded human being, its just he forgot the franchise has a substantial fanbase which finds gratification in the power of violence rather than the power of understanding violence.
At least this thread is revealing a rather unwholesome truth that whilst what made the first film special was its element of surprise as horror entertainment, which was essentially innocent, because the audacity was in the surprise, some people actually want to stop and glorify that curiosity of 1978 and grow it ugh.Thank god for Ripley and her sacrifice which is where the future story should have always stopped.
Yea, I can't wait for Scorn. Hope it comes out for Xbox 1.
Indeed these are some very interesting pieces of work, and thanks to Pred'Alex for creating and sharing these works, some of them i am not sure quite fit into how to have explored Dr Shaw as they are a bit too Bio-Mechanical/Xenomorph but very good none the less.. But i think these ones HERE and HERE would certainly had been very very interesting.
It is a bit of a shame how we ended up with the explorations or lack of with Dr Shaw, i feel AC also went about it a bit of the wrong way, even with regards to the limited resolution we got as far as Shaws Fate.
If we could undo ALIEN COVENANT just for a moment, and still look at Davids Agenda in Alien Covenant, which appears to be create his own Perfect Creation, then if we go back before Alien Covenant and ask if we was DAVID what basis would he begin?
The closest thing we ever got to a Xenomorph in Alien Covenant was the Deacon, and when we look how these Xenomorph type Organism came to be, its Origins did Stem from what ever that Black Goo contained, but the way/route this Pathogen had to take to give us the Deacon, does lead us down a certain path were indeed Dr Shaw was required to Produce the Face Hugger like Mother to the Deacon.. the Trilobite.
We know David was aware of Dr Shaws none-traditional Fetus, but it would be safe to bet David was not aware quite of the results, or at least never witnessed the result of the Adult Trilobite and what Horror it would lead rise too.
So if we go back to being DAVID, now Post "The Crossing" you can be sure that David would have been very interested to see the End Results of what Transpired from his Experiment on Holloway.
So i feel a starting point for David would be to try and understand WHY and HOW did that simple spiking of Holloway's Drink lead to Elizabeth Shaw being Pregnant with a Alien Fetus. And thus you would think that David would like to Replicate this kind of Experiment again... and so it would have made sense that at some point David would want to Re-Create the Alien (Trilobite) Fetus. I think Ultimately AC shows us he had conducted similar experiments with Female Engineers... but AC had hinted to us that it was via Dr Shaw that David achieved his greatest Specimens... which Ultimately must lead to those Eggs.
so it would appear that if we went before AC, then using the Black Goo Pathogen, on Dr Shaws Egg Cells would provide a Basis for Re-Creating something similar to the Deacon, and i think it would have been interesting that the More David had experimented on her Eggs, that Gradually the Pathogen started to infect Dr Shaws DNA and Turn her into a Hybrid, and that this Hybrid Shaw is what then started to provide the Fruits of Davids labor to get use closer to the Xenomorph.
And so seeing Dr Shaw, Restrained against her will, experimented on to give Child Birth but not Traditional Fetus, and eventually see her become a Hybrid Organism would have been interesting... The Source i had Late Feb 2015/Early March 2015 did allude to something similar.
And when we look at the concept works by Matt Hatton and Dane Hallett we do see Dr Shaw connected to a Bio-Mechanical and sometimes Alien Organic device/restraint and their concepts also showed us a various Xeno/Human Hybrids some more Xeno than others.... so a BIG QUESTION would be at some point was these kinds of ideas to had been explored.
And this brings me back to the OT.... because some of their work would truly had been fitting to such a Fate for Dr Elisabeth Shaw.
Do you guys think Ridley has all of this figured out ahead of time? I feel like he makes it up as he goes depending on who is writing the script. Do you think there is a mythos that has been planned out since the beginning or is the idea evolving over time causing the films to seem more and more disjointed and scattered?
@ScorpioStar - IMHO Disney is a good thing, because they have deep enough pockets to properly fund Sir Ridley's next installments! I honestly enjoyed John Carter, but what do I know? HAHA!
I say they clone shaw!!
Very, very COOL!!!
@dk - I am interested in a movie that is able to present a larger concepts that can get me to ask myself why I believe what I believe. It is the movie's ability to to get me to question what I have always seen as reality. For me, that movie was once Star Wars, but I am now able to say that movie is Prometheus!!
My vote is, after Ridley's next and hopefully final disappointing prequel to Alien, they should do an Alien 5 while the cast is still alive and then start a completely new trilogy with characters we care about and new strains of xeno's and a further exploration of the Engineers with much more Giger influence on the landscapes etc.
Perfectly said, great editorial!
Well, What happened to Monday was more or less a shitty movie single-handedly pulled out off the dirt by Rapace. I completely agree with you on the characters, but I would rather have something new in the Alien Universe (hopefully not a new monster), not the Xenomorph done right.
I was not genius than David and the situation he created and the game he played nobody can't survive it. neymar 10 brazillian player
It is interesting that despite the movie and franchise being named Alien, the comments have sidelined into the characterizations of the human cast in the original versus those of the prequels.
In the original the only character that is not one dimensional is Ash. Regardless of your opinions of the other characters, their characterization was poor at best. Take Dallas as an example. Being the captain of the Nostromo he should NOT have led the expedition team, that was the second in commands job; Kane. He should not have ordered Lambert on the team either, should anything had befallen her they would have been marooned. As such the expedition team should have been Kane, Ripley, and Ash. Following his complete disregard for well-known command protocols (have they not watched Star Trek) Dallas, having put Kane, and subsequently the crews lives at risk then ignores protocol again heading into the air ducts, instead of ordering Ripley to investigate the ducts, as she was the only expendable crewmate at that point.
As for Ripley, she was a bitch in the first movie, a character stereotype that is usually the first to die in such movies. Her only positive development was in Aliens when her maternal nature opened her up emotionally to Hicks, Newt and us the audience. But in Alien 3 her deflated submission to her inevitable fate, while plausible was against her character as a survivor.
For me, the best characters throughout the franchise have been Ripley, Ash, Hudson, Vasquez, Clemens, Dillon, Golic, Johner, Vriess, Janek, Shaw, David (Prometheus, not Covenant), and Tennessee.
In addition to Dallas, I found Daniels to be a Ripley-lite, Newt was way too screamy, Burke was too obvious, Fifield and Milburn were just dumb (as was Holloway) and Parker was just Yaphet Kotto. But the worst travesty is the whole Walter/David dynamic, and the praise it gets. The so-called twist at the end of Covenant was obvious the moment we knew Fassbender was gonna be portraying multiple roles. In What Happened To Monday Noomi Rapace plays seven identical sisters, each with noticeably different characters, and without the use of any accent trickery, completely outshining Michael Fassbender's performance.
And Oram worst scene is believing a crazed android, which he called the Devil, and instead of shooting him on the spot he followed in the cellar to reenact the biblical man's fall from heaven, an overtly forced metaphor.
Sorry I have never read any novelisations, so I cannot combat that. But then why not explain the crew's actions from covenant's novelisation?
I can argue only what is only in the movies. I don't even know when Phobos was conceived in regards to the movies script so that's that for continuity.
Dallas was generally quite laid-back as Captain, although Brett and Parker's continued insistence that they receive higher pay seemed to annoy him. He was also averse to making decisions, a flaw he himself acknowledged and cited as the reason he was merely in charge of a commercial tug as opposed to a more impressive position aboard a space liner. When forced into a decision, Dallas seemed prone to making rushed, unwise choices under pressure, most glaringly when he allowed Kane and the Facehugger back on board the Nostromo in violation of standard quarantine protocols — a move that ultimately doomed the crew. Similarly, he opted to leave LV-426 before the Nostromo was fully repaired, leaving the crew without vital surveillance systems that they could have used to track the Alien.
Source: The Weyland-Yutani Report, ADF's Alien Novelisation
Red0guy i ask you this though.
If you were any one of the crew from the original film, facing the same circumstances, would you have done anything different?
Kane wanted his own command, he took a risk at a big discovery to get that. Dallas went into the air-ducts alone because he was in damage control; he was a man with a chequered career on his last chance, and he'd just F'ed up. Lambert would do anything to get herself out of trouble. Brett was the junior engineers whose job was to do as his told and help fix things. Someone said find the cat to help the tracker work better - thats what he did.
Most of their mistakes were selfish and self-serving errors of judgement by damaged and weak characters, and that got them killed.
Now fast track to Covenant. And you have Captains, XOs, and scientific staff - professional and vigorously screened and tested personnel (see Phobos clip), making blatantly poor decisions that go against everything they were trained for. Oram disregarding mission objectives was as bad as the Titanic taking a detour lol...and just as catastrophic
Nice! Another day at the job Ati- punch in and out with awesomeness! Oddly, I am reminded of the God of War series in some ways.
Masterful!
Effects artists working on the Covenant sequel should build sets like the above images but in miniature scales, like how ILM did for the Death Star.
Sorry I don't agree with what you say. The stupidity of characters was there in the Alien franchise from day one. Kane poking the egg, Parker's stereotypical obsession about being paid, chase the cat and getting killed, smart indeed. As for likable characters, I liked Lambert the most because her fate (rape and murder). In my eyes Ripley was just as bitchy as Shaw, she becomes much more likable in Aliens (so thank Cameron 4 that).
In Prometheus there is only 4 monster encounters, and why the exception of Fifield were dealt with reasonably. And I'll take Janek over Dallas every day.
As for Covenant I cared more a dead then anybody else. Daniels? She is a joke, a Ripley-lite. David became just another space nazi robot.
Actually, it's quite simple to understand that the beast is not cooked,
All the approaches that have been made after the first movie have only disrespected him, and unlike what many think, is not just about the characters.
The xenomorph represents a murderous beast, this is true, but not any beast, but a psychopath.
That's why the first movie works so well, if you replace the xenomorph with any human being this one would kill one by one the crew of the ship, like a common assassin terrorizing everyone because you do not know when he will attack and you are in a reduced and claustrophobic place, he would be exactly like a beast. But Alien is not that, once you separate these elements from the character you stay with its psychological traits, he is not only a murderer, he is a psychopath, he lacks empathy, emotions or susceptibility, his levels of intelligence and rage are immensely high, he is calculating, his mental processes are totally ruined, he is a deranged killer who does not attack directly but studies his victims in an insane way, he is a sexual depraved, only his high violent behavior satisfies his mental need to dominate his victims, rape, murder, dismember them and get drunk with pleasure while doing it. To this we add what already know:
200 lbs of pure murderous power, an extraordinary agility, resistance and strenght from another world, supernatural adaptation, a set of weapons at his disposal that nobody else counts.
I'm surprised that this has been forgotten for so long. These disturbed psychological traits of a Xenomorph are as interesting as artificial intelligence. I hope that one day justice will be done, because as we go, we will end up with another Cameron bug hunt. and Ridley ... to say that the beast is cooked ... I admire and everything ... but respectfully, fu... the only thing cooked is your closed mind, that can not appreciate the beauty of what Giger created and is far more profound and interesting than any other pseudo-religious creationist theme.
Alien would have been a totally forgettable movie without solid characters. Scary monster? Check. How the characters deal with it? Check. Characters you actually care about? Check.
Prometheus and AC- Monsters- Check. How characters deal- stupid! Characters you care about- David and Daniels for different reasons. Everyone else was forgettable.
IRaptus Or if the character is moral/ethical, have him/her deal with a force that is the opposite. See who wins. I think characters need to be flawed too. Sometimes they lose or win. You never really know. That element helps to maintain engagement.
dk that's awesome, that's what you want in a show! I don't know if you saw my post to your Orville II thread, but we don't get the show in Aus until December, I have to wait :(
The cool thing is that episodes build characters and then the rest is complex situations that the characters deal with
Characters should be tested, no easy runs. Sorry to harp on about GoT but the best example I can think of is Jaime Lannister, a renowned swordsman, loses his sword hand and has to adapt. You can literally watch his smug arrogance dissolve and change with humility and humbleness through the seasons.
If you want dynamic characters, pit them against things they hate/fear. If they're good at something, take it away from them. Test their moral compass. Force them to survive with someone they dislike.
I suspected the ole changeroonie, but the victor of the fight was implied and not clearly seen.
To answer the OP, I survived since I predicted it and was apparently correct. I was not smarter than David, except for possibly being unmoved by the protomorph attacking the camera- that seemed to genuinely set David aback.
I Moon Girl a good point about Lope, I'm interested to watch the film again now, to watch these characters more closely and if they have any reason to suspect David/Walter.
Having read the Origin novel you know Lopes character is very switched on and alert, a very intelligent and experienced officer with keen instincts. And yes tough as nails!!! But in the film he falls to pieces after Hallet dies, which is fair enough given their relationship. His mind wasn't on the job.
But you're right, there's no way he would have left Rosenthal behind, not after she saved his life in Origin, they had a very close bond. After losing Hallet you would think he would be doing all he could to at least save her.
IRaptus I am still watching The Orville with the time that I have. The cool thing is that episodes build characters and then the rest is complex situations that the characters deal with. You can be laugh, be intrigued or even cry within one episode. To me, that is what is important, but it is all about characters first.
I admit I haven't seen the last alien film at all except for stills of the alien.... Prometheus was enough to make me stop spending money on that.
Even dollar theater viewings and industry screenings haven't interested me in any of these blockbuster franchises.
Although I do have a free screening date to see Blade runner and the negative press interests me almost enough to see it.
But I know it won't cut muster story wise.
@IRaptus "By the time he was 'helping' Daniels and Tennessee trap the xeno I was fairly certain it was David, he was too intent, almost anxious watching his pet being tested."
That's what I like to hear. What you said is just that slight unWalter-ish character that David messed up on that I was talking about.
Yea, we could all just safely assume that David is going to switch places as soon as we see two similar looking androids because we know a lot about the characters and some of the story before we even watch the movie, but your statement could basically be a viewpoint of anyone who watched the movie and doesn't have that background information (kind of like a fellow Covenant crew member). Still, David's character in A:C was still pretty suspicious. With what you said though, it's evidence that we could tell the difference between Walter and David. The question is, when? You did on the lander. I did too, but I didn't say to myself, "That is 100% David".
The point you mentioned could be from a perspective of a fellow Covenant working crew member. They would all know Walter very well. Some of them would even know David. So, if you were on Planet 4, you would be able to tell the difference between Walter and David and would be able to prevent him from reaching the ship.
Of course, you also bring up the point of all the stress the Covenant crew members were experiencing and the willingness to get off Planet 4. I am a little surprised that Lope didn't have any suspicion being a security officer. Especially since everyone knew that Oram and Rosenthal had to be dead if they were leaving them behind. I can't remember how Lope found out though. Lope pretty much just sat that from my memory and had "Walter" take care of his face. After reading the prequel novel, I thought of Lope as being tougher than that, but he doesn't have to be.
"there was no way David survived through 1.5 films to be cheaply killed off-screen."
I mean, in the movie, Walter is on top of David and David is looking pretty messed up. It looks like Walter is going to win to me, even if David grabs the knife. Still, that is a good point.
Jonnysokko I think the copyright issue is more apparent in "Alien: Covenant" than in "Prometheus". I read an interview with conceptual artist Dane Hallett where he states he was disappointed that Fox's legal department prevented him to use certain biomechanic looking designs for Elizabeth Shaw and David's experiments, and that is why his designs ended looking more than victorian medical drawings. I don't think it would cost Fox so much to acquire the rights to use HR Giger's Necronomicon; it's just they decided to spend the money on other things.
Personally, I'm against spoilers, so I tried to stay away from anything to revealing of the A:C story.
Get this! When I first saw the trailer for A:C, I saw the David looking android coming off of a space ship wearing gear and leading the pack of people. When I first saw this, I figured that Alien: Covenant was supposed to take place before Prometheus and that David knew of the Engineers before he ever arrived on Planet 4. I got really excited and did a little research. I found that the David looking character was actually Walter, another android. I found that out about a month before I watched Alien: Covenant. I never really suspected that David would switch until I was watching the first encounters with David. But as I said, I got caught up with the story and that idea just slipped from my mind.
I Moon Girl its an interesting point. As viewers, we knew about David's nefarious activities from Prometheus and were pre-conditioned to suspect him. I began to suspected it was David instead of Walter during the lander battle simply on the basis that there was no way David survived through 1.5 films to be cheaply killed off-screen. By the time he was 'helping' Daniels and Tennessee trap the xeno I was fairly certain it was David, he was too intent, almost anxious watching his pet being tested.
But from a Covenant crew member perspective, they would have no clue, or reason to suspect it was anyone but Walter. Even Daniels. She would have been so high on adrenaline and relief from her rather hectic and frantic battle with the xeno to be suspicious. Walter was a superior model, who had the upper hand last she saw him and David battling. When he returned, he was dressed, groomed and missing the hand like Walter, and her main concern would have been to get back to the Covenant and get the hell out of there. Even if it did cross her mind, she probably concluded that David was creepy but a hell of a lot less threatening than the Neomorph, Xenomorph infested city full of dead Engineers. Worry about it later.
Lope and T were on the Planet but missed Daniels revealing encounter with David, and Ricks and Upworth were completely out of the loop.
So I guess if you were on the Covenant, you'd all be at David's mercy.
I believe Ridley Scott is ruining his legacy as he's clearly out of touch with his audience and what these movies have become.... it's not the artistic statement that it once was in the late 70's early 80's where the studio hadn't fully (believed to) figure out a tried and true franchise template to operate by.
Hollywood is run by accountants and number people without creativity. Sadly, you'd have to have much more fight in you than Scott has to attempt to develop characters or tell story in today' cinema..... those things don't carry well to foreign markets like explosions and action do.
It is my belief that fox did not want to pay Giger again for the alien main character design on Prometheus..... so they concocted the prequel as a way to reboot the franchise without spending a ton of money... then after his death felt it was safe to go back and negotiate new terms with the current license holder.
I'd be interested to hear the story from that side if anyone has any info.
I'v worked in the film industry for over 20 years and I've seldom seen a decision made solely for artistic reasons that didn't have dollar signs factored in.
Actually BigDave and I speculated on 'the switch' last year....When we learned there were 2 Davids. Assumed there might be some hank panky. .....And later in the year, we learned the shuttle was destroyed....and the mother ship was in orbit with colonists...sort of wrote itself......cool to think about David in charge of those colonists.
During the movie...I was 100% when RS didn't show the ending of the David / Walter fight.
What draws me to a film or series is intelligence, originality and entertainment value. I can enjoy derivative stuff only if done with class.
wow!! Awesome art.
I think this would suit the perfect ambiguity of a fallen Engineer empire, and add much mystery and untold lore to their race. Why did such a marvellous race fall? And who was powerful enough to topple them?
Thanks for the share Ati!
Yea, I think I would enjoy a Rob Zombie show. So, Rob Zombie just had some girls dancing on stage? That is his style though, so I wouldn't throw that pass him. I've seen some videos showing pieces of his live performances on youtube. They seem to be fun.
One of my favorite bands about 12 years ago was Powerman 5000. The lead singer is the brother of Rob Zombie. Powerman 5000 is more of a hard rock, punk kind of music today, but they really changed up their styles on their first few albums.
It would be an awesome scene in the movie:
