Comments (Page 488)

The David's pet idea was a prominent concept when Covenant was in very early production. I agree, would have been awesome to have his guardian Alien turn out to be Xeno-Shaw.

Disney is not the boogeyman. In the past they have produced some interesting sci-fi movies like "Tron" and "The Black Hole". On top of that I don't think they want to buy another studio in order to produce more of the same; they would probably like to keep it as a separate division.

This is great work with some amazing concepts.

Hudson: 8 meters. 7, 6...
Ripley: They can't be. That's inside the room.
Hudson: It's reading right, man! Look!
Hicks: Well then you're not reading it right!
Hudson: 5 meters, man! What the hell?! [Looks up along with the rest as they realize they're in the ceiling] ... Oh shit... oh ****...

MU/TH/UR said, "Would have been cool to have David have some sort of creature following him around and watching over him. In the end it would have been revealed that this "thing" was Shaw all along. A dreadful twist."

That is a great idea.

I can probably bring that back, dk. I'm gonna try to work it back into the new design.

Would have been cool to have David have some sort of creature following him around and watching over him. In the end it would have been revealed that this "thing" was Shaw all along. A dreadful twist.

I can get used to it, but I sort of miss the bottom portion listing who was online and the member count. 

Real name- Dave. I sent a few things to members over the last year and because of necessity, we know each others' names. I live in Spokane, Washington USA.

These threads can be fun once in a while. It is interesting to see how many countries are represented here and that there is a common interest in the Alien franchise.

Salutations!

I'm Adoxographic Content, real name is Jensen. No last names, I'm a bit neurotic that way. 

Born in California, lived all over - currently stuck in the unrelenting hell that is the Southern United States. I can't even remember the first time I saw Alien, but I was endlessly fascinated by everything on screen. This continued through each sequel and probably set off my love for the horror genre in general.

My excitement for the continuation of the series is strong, even though some of the more recent films have had some awfully silly elements (Prometheus school of running, lol).

Aand...I'm out.

Yes, its a shame. 

But at least there's a horror game called scorn coming next year, that's inspired by Giger's artworks and ideas.

All good things come to an end, even Star Wars is looking tired.

I've no wish to see a 70year old Ripply running around a strange planet. Having said all this it'll be interesting to see how Predator rewrites itself.

Sir Ridley is a great director and more than competent as a producer. Save the day, Sir! For the whole and ignored bunch of people who worked on the movie and who only appear on the final credits that are barely seen by the popcorn audience...

Hopefully, these reshoots don't push back the production schedule for the Covenant follow-up, already slated for 2019 release. I wasn't planning on seeing All The Money in The World, and I certainly won't now. 

So, you see "Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep" (1968). Sir Ridley made a far better work on the movie, for the book is almost unreadable. And I also read the original script for ALIEN - Sir Ridley's good job on that too.

And then, in the 21st Century, there comes Sir Ridley knowing that AI is far closer than any beast come from wherever - not only with PROMETHEUS and COVENANT, but also with BLADE RUNNER 2049.

If you're looking for sense in space, try 2001 or INTERESTELLAR, where science proceeds. But if you're looking for tangible threats, go for AI - we're closer and blinder as ever, for it's more feasible we see evil AIs on Earth than having a planet(s) we could reach in our lifetime, apart from those we already know, which can't be "terraformed" - let alone monstrous bugs of any kind.

Now, if you want easy space and monsters and fantasy, why not going to STAR WARS? - for an ALIEN 5 would be too ridiculous to be true.

So, let's just forget everything that's happened and get rid of that nasty but necessary feeling that things evolve?

Sorry, the 1980's are over, as well as all the TERMINATORs and PREDATORs and the sort. It was fun at the time, but, seriously, can't people just get over and move on? I was a teenager then, but not anymore - I know better now.

Seriouly?! Blomkamp and Ripley and Hicks and... Seriously?!

 The beast is far well and finally cooked.

Just imagine if Cameron had actually started with ALIEN (1979). That's all I got to say to his fans. On the other hand, imagine Marvel taking over DC and project what V FOR VENDETTA or WATCHMEN would be like.

And, it's been seen, just take a look at what Disney did to Pixar.

I am a Sir Ridley person, as I am a DC person - and I also love David Fincher's work. Cameron and his bug hunt (AVATAR and TITANIC included) is just like Disney to me. Lots of nonsense, boring and obvious popcorn movies.

who knows where they can take this....

The notion that RS referred to the Engineers in Prometheus as Fallen Angels is interesting, does he mean these guys are Demons, as in just their Nature of being Malevolent, or are we seeing a alternative interpretation on the Literal Story of the Fallen Angels, which would imply the Engineers was a Race who Served a higher power/Hierarchy but some of them Rebelled.

I think Prometheus explored these themes, of Creation and Sub-creation and Rebellion.. If we look Literally at GOD this does not have to be any One Faith or Mythos and so we could apply it to Greek Gods too, then we can ask the Question...

Is current Mankind behaving the way these GODS intended? is the Majority of Mankind Serving and Worshiping these GODS the way  they intended?  What Reason was we Created, why did GOD/GODS create us and are we performing to the Needs and Requirements that GOD intended for us?

We can see this theme explored with David..... Mankind (Creator) created Synthetics for certain reasons, we never created Synthetics so they could Evolve to become Sentient, and then conclude why should they Serve Mankind, what makes us Special to have Authority over them... especially when we are In-superior.  Potentially David could lead to our Destruction with the Xenomorph, or David could lead a Rebellion of Synthetics to Overthrow Mankind...    Which would prove a great Hubris to Mankind.

Well Prometheus seems to maybe imply the above Hubris, is what the Engineers had encountered and the Black Goo was their Failed attempt to Prevent their Wayward Creations from becoming a Threat... it would be like in Hindsight, Weyland not created a AI that evolves to become Sentient.

The Interesting thing is that this kind of Hubris of Sub-Creating could stem back even further than the Engineers making them also Creations created for a limited Purpose by their own Creators etc.

When i was working on a Prometheus 2, i was drawn more to the Annunaki kind of Tale as far as the Engineers and their Creators.... and i was going to put in a Sinister Twist as to why the Engineers was created, a Twist that HR Gigers Mural for Alien and his Concepts clearly showed.

Indeed they have to be careful how they play the Xenomorph Card from now on, Ultimately it has to be revealed in some way down the line if we are going the Route that Davids Creations become those Eggs on the Derelict, they have to give some clues to this, if not actually kind of Spoon Feed it.

There are many other things that make up the Franchise than the Xenomorph and Ripley

This is the interesting thing, because they can still change things and what ever the True Meaning, Purpose and Agenda for the Engineers can be changed, maybe even a Curve-Ball thrown out?

The Engineers.... well those on LV-223 could indeed be different to those on Planet 4, these Albino Larger Engineers could be a Version that had Evolved themselves to be this way, they could even be Created Clones created much like Weyland had done with the Creation of David... but the Engineers are not Synthetic and so would be more like Replicants in this case.

I think we may have to accept that David created the Xenomorph, but as we saw in AC the various experiments David conducted and the various outcomes of the Black Goo in Prometheus... never mind the Concept works or how Fire and Stone explored the Black Goo...  The Xenomorph is just One Application of the Black Goo (well Engineered result of it)..   So this still means potential for other applications of the Black Goo and why and where did this stuff come from.

The Black Goo say could be like Gunpowder.... and so the Xenomorph could merely be just like the Shotgun Cartridge, and Fire-works another application.   I do wonder if the whole History of where the Black Goo was obtained/created will now be a Mystery that RS/FOX will attempt to keep.

We cant be sure, what they will change as it appears they constantly change and evolve elements of the Franchise as far as Plots and History etc.   We cant rule out them doing a U-TURN as far as David Creating the Xenomorphs on the Derelict... because FOX/RS have changed their minds and ideas quite a lot over the years.

"I know you do not share the narrative offered here by some "

I am not 100% sure what you mean, but please elaborate so i can understand, i did understand AC and the themes it was setting up, my previous post to Thoughts_Dreams  is what i feel Ridley Scott was aiming for and so its not quite just about AI... its a Bigger Question of when AI becomes so Advanced that it can Act and Think for itself have its own Emotions, then AI could get to the point where it does not view itself as merely a Machine.

A Ape/Monkey is a Bio-logical Machine, they can perform tasks, but they lack the Advanced Intelligence of a Human, the Ambitions, Dreams and Desires, it is our Higher Intelligence that puts us on a Higher Pane of Existence.   A Ape will not be able to write and create their own Story, Musical etc.  Not like a Human can.

And so if we look at AI as being just as Advanced as now, the Big Question i feel RS is asking is when AI evolves to the point, it becomes Sentient, and can think for itself and create its own Stories, Compose its own symphonies etc  then what separates Human and AI, just Biology compared to Synthetic Components. And so with RS asking things about the Soul and Purpose of Life, where do we go when we Die, do we go any place.. as these things are only what separates us from a AI as far as the Advanced Level we see with David.

The Themes of Rebellion from Creation towards creator, and the Hubris of Creation is something RS appears to have also been trying to tackle.  There is the Potential (but we know this Path does not take place) but the Potential is there that Davids Creation go on to destroy all Mankind but for a Portion, where Synthetics then move to the Dominating Role while Mankind is on the verge of extinction and now have to Serve the Synthetic Life we created...   A theme and Agenda the Terminators never quite managed to succeed with, but one where the Machines in the Matrix had done so.

Prometheus had opened up a massive world to explore and themes, and its opened it up to be more than just a ALIEN Life-form... that Mankind encounters with prove Futile and Fatal, RS seems to be more interesting in the Actual Reasons why Create such a Beast, and what and why was the Bio-Weapon/Biology that lead David to create it, why was this created.   And i guess also some big Questions behind why would the company so many times try to obtain this Organism.

These are more important than just seeing Xenomorphs running Rampant.

I think Alien Covenant was trying to hard to please every kind of Franchise Fan, by giving just a little of each thing they wanted, when restricted to a limited running time to actually do them any justice.

BigDave

Yes, I’ve read Spaihts’ script and I think it would have become a better movie than Prometheus actually became (It was pretty good, though). I think they should have kept the neomorph because that part was really creepy. Instead, they had to force it in - together with a couple of xenos - in AC.

The scarab part makes more sense in the perspective of sacrifice since the sacrificed (his DNA) is immortalized. In Prometheus, his DNA is broken apart (“He” is no more). In this engineer culture, The Elders might have fooled the ordinary people that the sacrifice is an honour, and they might eventually have rebelled? Perhaps it is one of these rebels we meet in Prometheus?

A movie belonging to the sci-fi-horror genre can never become a blockbuster. It is predominantly a male genre, perhaps even academic, imaginative males drawn to fantasy, physics (astronomy) or technology? In order to become a blockbuster film, you need to attract both sexes or children of both sexes. The highest grossing films (adjusted for inflation) are Gone with the Wind, Avatar, Star Wars, Titanic and The Sound of Music. All of these contain love stories which attract women (drama genre) and they are movies which are not only for adults, older children can watch them as well. In short, the target group is very large.

So, sci-fi-horror has a relatively small target group. Furthermore, this group is divided into those who prefer lots of action (Aliens) and those who prefer more atmosphere and philosophical depth (Prometheus).

I would say that the box office takes for Alien: Covenant (in retrospect) was about what could be expected. It was hyped-up because of all publicity but has earned $241 million worldwide so far (To this must be added earnings from dvd's, blu-rays, TV-rights etc.). Some comparison ($million):

• Aliens $131
• Alien 3 $160
• Alien R. $161
• Alien vs Predator $173
• Alien vs Predator Requiem $129

Prometheus was a bit better (and had a higher budget): $403 million. Prometheus didn’t need so much publicity since everybody who had seen Alien as a kid just had to see the movie where the maestro returned to the franchise (about 30 years later).

Some other interesting comparisons:

• Titanic: $2,2 billion
• Avatar: $2,8 billion

So, is the goose cooked? No, I would say. It’s just that the genre itself (sci-fi-horror) is limited to a rather small target group and this group is divided in itself. Whichever road Scott will take in the next prequel, some will get disappointed and some will probably love it. But will it become a blockbuster? No!

BigDave

It's kind of hard to imagine David loading all those eggs. He is like a God now and gods don't do physical work.  

Another possibility that came to my mind is a parallel between the Juggernaut and the Covenant, the thousands of  eggs being the alien colonists looking for a hospitable new planet. In this case the eggs would be loaded by the alien race itself. Somehow the SJ did not follow the rules and looked into the hold. Curiosity killed the cat.

That's one of the things I like about Ridley Scott: nothing is impossible. 

IRaptus

Ridley Scott said the focus will be on AI.

Well , the engineers from LV 223 sure looked more artificial than those from planet 4 and the engineer head found in Prometheus reminded me of the head of Bishop in Alien 3. So it is not an impossible theory. And if they are AI and the Deacon was born from one of them, David should be more careful with the little facehuggers. By the way, didn't he swallowed 3 embryos in the novelization? In the film he only regurgitated 2.

IMO the xenomorph can offer no more surprises, no more suspense. We are too familiar with its lifecycle, with its way of killing its victims. It was shot from all possible angles, it was even displayed in Disneyland. I have my own xenomorph at home. I love this creature from the very beginning. I'm not against it.

We don't know for sure if the xenomorph has any common history with the engineers. Ridley Scott tried to show the xenomorph as an artificial being, created or re-created by David. A parasite, a weapon. How did the come to this particular shape and traits, he would not tell us. The are so many theories and none of them was categorically excluded by Ridley Scott in my opinion. It can even be that the xenomorph is a superior race and their way to colonize other worlds is to send the eggs there by a space ship. The Juggernaut may be a cargo ship and the Space Jockey a mere carrier. Or an egg monger? I can even make a parallel between the Juggernaut and Covenant the eggs being the alien colonists. The Space Jockey is a suit or the source of inspiration for a suit?

Ridley Scott won't tell us these things and it is the right way. We can all dream and invent and re-invent an alien universe forever.

Now if he want to explore more the AI let him do it. It will be a good movie, I am sure of it, and it can expand the alien universe even more. Let the man pursue something he loved, something he will dedicate all his passion to. If you are still in doubt whether it will be a good movie just look at Prometheus. So many people, including myself love this movie even if the human characters are the most annoying ones. There is no xenomorph. And the engineers are more suggested than displayed. So not the xenomorph,  the engineers or good human characters are the indispensable ingredients to a good movie in the alien universe. I think Ridley Scott has an interesting point he wants to explore further and he should get all the support we can give him. I trust the man unconditionally. 

But if anyone reads this, please no CGI Ripley!

Duplicate. please remove.

joylitt, and you are right again - using CGI to "fix things," from a certain fictional monster's excessive appearance to a certain human's sexual indiscretions, makes everything less organic and more GMO ))

joylitt, you are right, it is all about business, whether RS makes a business decision or the studio does. Just sad to see our beloved franchise possibly affected by an actor's sex life, the actor who has nothing to do with the franchise. People seem to be unable to separate things and focus on the most sensational.

JonesRules However I find the news somewhat relevant because it is telling of how Ridley Scott the business man operates.  It is also telling of how much he relies on digital technology to complete his projects. It is true that an older actor (Christopher Plummer) is going to replace Spacey, but I wouldn't be surprised if he also uses some cgi in a similar way to what he was imagining for Ripley in a future Alien film. I have the feeling this movie is going to have an impact on his next projects. Just imagine the prospects of cutting the xenomorph out of a film like "Alien Covenant" to prevent it from getting over cooked!

joylitt, dk, I do agree with all you say, business decisions these are. We are the passionate fans of the franchise this forum is dedicated to, yet this franchise was started by the great director whose latest film's fate is affected by personal life of the actor involved in it, the actor who has never been involved in the franchise we are in this forum for.

Scrolls A plot from whom? political?

I think this got started due to the fact that Weinstein lost power in Hollywood, along with that he lost his impunity and a domino effect followed.

JonesRules I agree about discussing the topic on this forum for different reasons. IDK how other countries handle it, but in the US, the climate is pretty much business minded like joylitt said. People tend to distance themselves as much as possible to keep their careers. If RS and the company released the movie as is, they may face boycots and protests etc- even though KS hasn't had his day in court which is interesting for different reasons. A bit OT, but I just learned a similar situation just popped up for someone whose body of work I admire- Louis CK. It is a very weird situation. I wonder how far this will go- are things KS was ever involved in going to be villified now no matter what artistic merit it has? Will places like Amazon get shunned for selling/streaming? Will Netflix purge everything in its catalog with KS in it?

JonesRules I guess it is just a business decision. Ridley Scott comes from two big movies that were box office disappointments, and then this story breaks about Spacey who is prominently featured in his latest film, a possible award contender. The other alternative was to do nothing and see his film be pulled from festivals, with theaters refusing to show it, protests, etc. Actually many years ago I heard a Kevin Spacey story from a hotel manager which seemed to crazy to be true, as I heard stuff about Tom Cruise. But while Cruise's anecdotes only had to do with being very secretive in making secret "connections", Spacey's story was all about him being abusive with hotel personnel while demanding them to cover up for a sexual adventure gone wrong. I think Spacey's downfall is more linked to his attitude than to what he actually did. However I agree all this situation is very surreal and it is so crazy and tiresome to see a new story popping up every day.

I would usually not express an opinion on a matter like this, because the way USA reacts to certain things is so hypocritical, it provokes an endless and fierce discussion and polarizes involved parties (even more, it seems, than last-year's elections), and peace is what we need the most right now... Still I have to agree with red0guy about this particular move being excessive - re-shooting the scenes with a different actor, just because Spacey is pretty much alienated (no pun intended) from pretty much anywhere. For the sake of what exactly? Puritan values? I am not justifying whatever Spacey has been doing with these men, but you have an obviously talented [and closeted, until recently] actor who may be lonely, may be insecure, may be unable to handle booze adequately, may be unable (under influence or not) to control himself when encountering another male he is attracted to, and presenting his interest in that male in a way that defines harassment. The question is - did he HURT or RAPE any of these men? It does not seem that any one of them (even the one who was 14 (minor, of certain orientation) at the time [whatever] happened) was traumatized in any way. They probably just brushed it off, like guys do, until now, that the 15-minute-of-fame moment has arrived. Yet, Spacey's "sins" seem to be overshadowing Harvey's. Gimme a break, really... And now our man Ridley has to suffer. Shame!

BigDave

The Prequel Placement

I think we all know the history and the turnabouts and the muddle they are in and it all comes from never being certain how to place the prequels in relation to A L I E N and the creature. nuff said.

Big Ideas really ?

I know you do not share the narrative offered here by some "well if only people were more insightful and paid attention they would see Alien Covenant as this great movie which combines gnosticism and shelley etc etc". You only have to listen to Ridley's tired commentary to know that itself is hubristic projection.

The real point is "Thoughts&Dreams" David a mad delusional psychopath whose programming is off piste creates a weapon (for that is what the Xenomorph is) at all costs including using the body parts of the person he profess's to love. We learn diddly squat about anything except cautionary tales of an AI Part whatever. Lets not forget out in the real world this issue has been thoroughly explored by Star Trek.

No the much more interesting element of A I is "what is existence" and Ridley had bequeathed that utterly fascinating story to Bladerunner.   

Finally 

Playing this "application of a mythos part 49" to a routine story which ignores all the profoundly interesting elements which they have chosen to set aside does with respect miss the point. 

OK creations turn on creators with the creators bad gear. But how about. 

1) Pose the question do we live in a materialistic world or world of the creative mind. 

2) Do the Iggy "The Engineers" have the full story or is their role in seeding through sacrifice a conceit massive story potential. 

3) How the f... did the Alien Mutagen get created and what is its relationship to the benign life giving catalyser.

4) Does LV223 represent Paradise Lost and punishment for a fall.  

Now if mankind with a robot come into this story and start making discoveries about the world which they come into and evolve and react and change themselves THEN you have a story which grips through both ideas and through the acquisition of loyalty to character. That, all of that, is completely out to lunch whatever one goes on about creator creation of what, something which Ripley destroys.  

Wow! What a fantastic thread. I also hope Awakening would provide more visuals of the engineers. Not a baked city of twisted faceless corpses, but a living engineer who is unequivocally a space traveler. It seems their motivations could be 'humanish’ in nature. So we are pulled into thinking they are just like us. Someone or something which could be reasoned with. But then paired with those aspects so totally unlike us, hinted and inferred which make engineers mysterious, and captivating. I am torn. I want a backstory, because humans are innately curious. But honestly, to do the engineer and a possible grandparent race a sufficient backstory to do that story justice...would be way beyond the scope of one film. So what tiny morsels of backstory would be most mystery inducing? What would create the highest impact? In a subtle and elegantly executed way. The most expansive possible history finally revealed in a brief cathartic few scenes.

That is what I wonder. What can be imagined? An immense structure on an ancient Earth? A conversation between an engineer and something...else? A bit of verbal exposition by David or a human character? I don’t know what it would be. But I am fairly sure that type of scene would be my favorite. It could be the most memorable scene in the whole film. 

daliens

Here is a totally ridiculous scenario (I hope it is anyway). What if the Engineers are themselves an AI, and David finds a way to hack them. Then like the David to Walter upgrade theory, David ends up uploading his consciousness into the original SJ.....

RIOT!!!

I hate myself for even suggesting this as a possibility lol