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In A:RoP they found more than one dead "Engineer" on board of the derelict.
In one of the old interviews Ridley said the alien has a very limited lifespan to reproduce. Something like four days, then it dies. That would be the original life cycle reproduction he was talking about, where it cocoons another host body which then transforms into an egg.
Oooh, interesting idea! That fits pretty well with the movie version of Oram, as he complained about having not been given a command of his own when he felt like he deserved one.
But, that's not really the impression I got of the book version of Oram. In the book, he never wanted to be in charge and was pretty unhappy being put in that position.
Actually, I didn't like the movie version of Oram but I related to the book version of Oram a lot. There was one line that said something like "He was socially awkward and standoffish, which people often misinterpreted as arrogance".
And, he came across as strict because did whatever he thought was necessary to maintain order, but he actually really didn't like being bossy. Reminded me of my struggle to maintain order in my classroom while trying to maintain a good rapport with my students.
Oram did seem wracked with guilt in the book, but it seemed more related to the fact that his decision to give the planet a try had lead to the violent deaths of his wife and several people under his command.
@VE - Maybe it is only now, facing death, that Oram recognizes he is being punished for sabotaging James Franco's hypersleep chamber? We do not have the entire story as to why Franco's hypersleep chamber malfunctioned? Maybe Oram was the saboteur? If Oram had been involved in Franco's death, he may now see that GOD had not forgiven his sin, but was actually punishing him for it?
@Kethol - I totally agree!! Advancing the original story of David & the Engineers is paramount to this series.
That old chart needs some serious updating. The hammerpede was the result of the worms on the floor of the head chamber being mutated by the pathogen, not the worm that was in Holloway's eye after he was infected, but they show it linked.
The chart should really start with the black pathogen, and then show several branches off from that.
Good info, good points!
"Had that happened, it would have wiped mankind out, which David would be very happy about."
That makes a lot of sense. An alliance of convenience with the Weyland corporation is pretty consistent with David's overall goals in the long run.
As someone who fancies himself immortal, David's a pretty patient guy.
If you look at all the recent comments from Scott about the next movie, it gives a better picture of what is being written than just the comments about the four different players from that China press junket video.
"It starts off with a very grand idea—or a grand question, really. Who are they and why did they create such evil biology and bacteriology? And [in creating], to protect themselves from what? So the questions are…BEGINNING TO BE ANSWERED in Prometheus 2 (Covenant)".
"…Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing designed to make human beings. And if you think it’s them,” Scott said, gesturing to the monolithic figures of the Engineers surrounding us (hall of heads), “YOU'RE DEAD WRONG.”
".. fairly integral where this COLONIZATION SHIP IS ON THE WAY…" (in reference to the next film after Covenant)
"I always thought the journey would be very much embedded, at least 50% in RELIGION. Security blanket. YOU CAN GO THERE NEXT. When I get there, I'm looking at the COLONIES and what happens, and how it disintegrates…it's being written now, the sequel to Covenant"
"...we can bring it back to talk about the creation, inevitably about GOD…"
"Whether we bring Daniels back or not in the next one…she has to come back..I'm not sure that's the right thing"
"There will be three or four different players coming in to investigate, one of which will be the Engineers arriving back to find their planet decimated…Those ships (Juggernauts) come and go on regular intervals. I see them as the gardeners of space…where we go next is obvious. Were gonna actually go to the PLANET…"
"…The alien franchise should be into WAR OF THE WORLDS by now. That's where I'm going…they (Fox) don't know it yet, but that's what were doing, Fox."
And then there is this one. When he says 'three acts' he is not talking about a three-act movie, he is talking about a story arc across three movies.
"...we've already got the three act plan on where it's going to go and where it's going to connect, but it's evolving and getting bigger all the time. I don't know where it will end!"
Big Dave
Cheers for the reply and further insight, I switch off from forums for most of the weekend so will be silent for a bit.
I'll pop back on soon enough and read through you're post again and contribute further.
Have a good weekend folks.
Maybe the early evolution of the xenomorph lifecycle was much faster like we've seen in A: Covenant. So the Space Jockey could be infected just hours before he even entered the ship. Or he didn't even know about it? He could be infected in a completely different way than we've seen before.
... I wonder what happened to the alien that bursted out of the Space Jockey! Did it lay the eggs?
*Decides to get the hell out of here and leave you all to confront the Xenomorph.*
*Wryly wishes you all luck then runs, completely alone, in what is most likely the direction of danger*
"They're here...."
That is fan art, not concept art for Alien 5. It came from here:
and here
http://mixedsign.com/2017/05/18/alienfranchise-inspired-concept-art-and-illustrations-i/
Unfortunately, those "thought provoking ideas" were too difficult for the typical Aliens fan to understand, and they whined loud enough that Fox and Ridley listened, and so we got a movie that was half full of the same old tired stuff from the earlier movies.
Reading all of the ideas Ridley talked about above, he should have just stuck to his guns and continued on the path they had laid out. Personally, I don't want one movie that ties neatly into the first Alien movie and wraps everything up. I would love this to be a continuing movie series that advances the original story about the David and the Engineers. No more xenos needed.
This is very true Starlogger
Production had began on a Alien Prequel before it was re-wrote by Lindeloff to become Prometheus and then become shot... so the Production on the Chest Busted Props and Juggernaught could have been well under-way before the movie Draft was finished and shooting began... this could explain why no explanation is touched upon with the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods in Prometheus etc
"like sort of the original template or something??."
I think maybe yes... There are a lot of contradicting comments and clues regarding everything Engineer related. So its a case of trying to figure out which fits best... I have not read the Novel Yet... so the Original Engineers is a interesting comment.
I had information passed at the end of Feb 2015 regarding the Plans for Prometheus 2 that was based of the Paglen/Green Draft as of October 2014, this person had passed on a lot of information regarding the Engineers which i again can pass on here... but its hard to say if this is 100% correct because AC is a different movie to P2 as the movie was re-written quite a lot during the summer of 2015 by Logan and Harper. But the Sources comments to give some light on the Engineers. I will post this another time.
So we have to figure out how the Engineers are connected, and indeed we may have to consider the appearance of the Engineers in Covenant a Oversight... they had appeared on screen up close for a few seconds and so in Hindsight maybe RS felt that better Make Up and Black Out Contact Lenses was not needed.
Or maybe there is a reason they looked different? Surely RS did not learn from how his Prometheus Engineers who had gone from 15ft to 12ft then to 9-10ft at the time Prometheus was ready to shoot... and how they only appeared to be 7.5-8ft tops due to not using LOTR kind of Trickery and Effects.
But in AC we can clearly see a lot of these Dead Bodys are Human Size.... maybe Oversight and Budget Reasons or maybe there is a reason they are Human size.
RS comments about the Engineers not being a Race, but a Civilization and then suggesting how there are many variants of Mankind and so why cant there be many versions of Engineers, could well be a Key set of Clues to determine that there are different kinds of Engineers.
Its clear the Engineers are referred to as Gardeners of Space and they seem to be obsessed with Genetic Engineering, and indeed they have seeded Many Worlds. So these Engineers could have many different versions/generations.
The Source i had did mention that Mankind as of now is like 4th/5th Generation and that Engineers are connected to our Genetic Evolution and not Apes.
A interesting thing they mention about the LV-223 Engineers, was that they have a lot more in Common with David, which does not mean they are Robots... but it certainly could mean they are not Born as Humans are... but they are Engineered and Engineered to perform a Purpose/Serve the other Engineer beings and Hierarchy. so maybe the LV-223 Engineers are like Genetically Created Super Soldiers etc.
However they do look like the Sacrificial Engineers, the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus did not have to be Earth, but its a hint that something like this had maybe happened on Earth. This is also something they had done on many Worlds.
RS had mentioned that the Engineers came back over thousands of years to Evolve Mankind both Genetically but also Technologically (Taught us stuff) and so this means its not a case of Seed Worlds and leave it to Evolve... and then by a off chance Mankind appear who look very like the Engineers in a way but are different to other life on Earth apart from Primates... (i addressed this in my Prometheus 2 draft).
I also think that Seeding a World, and coming back to further Evolve the Life on a Planet is a very long winded way to go around things, than drop off some Engineers to start a Colony.. if Engineers can Procreate then surely dropping off a few hundred will indeed over Hundreds of Thousands of years lead to a Decent sized Civilization. Even a smaller initial colony of Engineers could lead to a Larger one over thousands of years.. this depends on how many times a Female can bare Children and how long between a Birth can they then reproduce again.
But if they could no Procreate... and only Cloning is the way they can Genetically Produce, this would give a better reason for the Seeding Method.
I think surely there has to be a reason for this route..
But back to what you put indeed, totally on the same page with this... if the Engineers are in pursuit of Perfection then you would want to keep a set of Prime Genetic Stock to use for Seeding.... or even Cloning... if we was to Create a Super Solider/Human who had a IQ of 150+ stood say 6ft5" and 250 lbs in pristine Physical Condition, Fast, Strong and Agile.
If we call this Person ADAM and then we Clone him to create a Army... it would be better to Clone from ADAM we can assume that Cloning from ADAM to create a 2nd Generation Adam, then Clone 2nd Generation of Adam, to make a 3rd and continue over and over... will eventually not make as Perfect Clones as using the Original ADAM DNA
So i would assume... and so indeed keeping a Good Original Genetic Stock is important. And so maybe the Engineers we see in Prometheus are Genetically Engineered for a Purpose and then they use these Genetically Engineered Engineers for seeding of Worlds...
A Purpose some of these Rebelled against... just as in the Annunaki Tale... thus Engineers are Igigi.. where i assumed Elders are the Annunaki... but maybe those beings on Paradise are the Annunaki.
If you are created a Genetically Superior Race in your image who are Physically Superior so that you can use their DNA to Seed Worlds instead of your own kind... then you would surely want to make sure these Genetically created beings Can-not Procreate... because if you lose control over them and they can Procreate and make a better New Race than your own.. this could be a Dreadful down-fall.
I ponder was Mankind created to replace those Genetically Engineered LV-223 Engineers, as per Annunaki Tale....
Certainly if those beings on Paradise are the Original Engineers... the whole Annunaki Tale is a Large Basis for my Engineer theory and how i was to tackle their Agenda/History.
"Keep on running, baby....Don't....Stop" . Now THAT was funny as hell!
I think the answer lies in the practicality. I believe Ridley starts set building based on his story boards, WAY before scripts are written, and certainly WAY before they are finished and the screenplay is completed. Because of this, and the film's budget, the sets actually determine the story, and the required rewrites are based around the sets, rather than the other way round, at least on Ridley's films...or so it seems.
In Prometheus the last 4 Engineers which survived the outbreak entered their hypersleep-pods after sealing the room.
Only one hypersleep chamber was functional (and not contaminated) after 2.000 (+-) years , so only one Engineer survived at LV-223.
The same could happen for the space jockeys "friends" on the derelict ship which crashed on LV-426.
He was the only pilot, got chest-bursted,crashed, all other alive Engineers/SJ's got killed in their Hypersleep-pods in the crash.
The juggernaut on planet 4 is a special case here.
There where probably no Engineers aboard here since Dr.Shaw and David used it to travel to planet 4 / Paradise.
They would notice it after years/months of living there in limited space.
A: Where they found the Alive Last Engineer No Holes
B: The other three Cryo-Pods with Holes in.
C: Location of all four Engineers
Next a close up of the Production Team preparing the Set.
Where we can clearly see the Holes in the Glass are Outwards.
The Xenomorphs look terrible since the actors in the costumes are too short.
The human characters are not developed.
I am not sure this is Art from Blomkamps Alien 5... can anyone confirm or deny this?
A lot comes from some inconsistency in how they even Plan the Movies and every element within them...
Alien gave us just the One Pilot.... RS had after Aliens said he would have like to had explored the Derelict and why it was there and mentioned about finding out what happened to the other Crew of that Ship.
This thus tells us RS had a Vision, maybe not when he was working on Alien but certainly a long time before he began work on Prometheus that the Derelict had more than ONE CREW
Alien: Engineers was the first attempt at a RS Prequel and this Draft, introduced the Engineers and Juggernaught and this Draft indeed explained there was 6 Crew and a Sperate Area where there are Sarcophagus that suit the Engineers with Flight suits , they do not line the Walls... the Hybernation Chamber has 4 Cryo-Pods...
Paradise draft by Lindeloff again informs us there are 6 Ghost Engineers in the Juggernaught Play Back and again there are just 4 Cryo-Pods however.
So indeed it is a little bit strange....
Do the Engineers Rotate a Shift Pattern between who is awake and who is in Cryo-sleep are there other parts of the Ship where Engineers have other Cryo-sleep pods?
All i can conclude is that the Juggernauts have 6 Engineer Crew, hence the 6 Space Jockey suits...
As for the Derelict and its differences, again on Film we see no Cryo-Pods, but we cant confirm there was just the One Crew Member... so again maybe the Derelict has a different Cryo-sleep set up but its anyone's Guess to where this is and how many Engineers this ship held.
EDIT:
I forgot to add that Prometheus as far as i recall there are 4 Engineer suits in the Hallway, but there a few Hallways leading to the Central Control/Pilot Chamber and the Ghost Engineer Scene had 4 Engineers but they appeared in pairs from either side of the room.
Alien Covenant as far as i remember had 6 Engineer Space Jockey Suits.
After seeing AC, I can't help but think that Fox and Ridley are more concerned with the quantity not quality of these movies and are milking it for all it's worth. Of course any studio has that mind set, but I'm afraid Ridley is also to blame here for not protecting the quality of this series and ensuring they are on par with his first movie.
I would have rather have one or two good movies, well-written, with good "memorable" characters and proper running time to craft the story. The movies should tie together and strengthen the series, not dilute it or undue the groundwork that was laid by its predecessor(s).
AC did its best to kill all the thought provoking ideas that Prometheus established and removed the key players that were supposed to be featured (the Engineers and Shaw)! This latest entry really soured me on this new series as a whole and as BigDave stated, it's going to require an awakening by Fox and Ridley to turn the page and deliver the story that this prequel series was meant to be about and quit this backlogging of plot points for future sequels, that may or may not see the light of day. Give the fans the full story in one well made movie and call it a day!
I love the Ripley one and the shut up at the end !
Although it is very interesting to see 2 Xenos facing the same way as a marine and wearing the same headgear as if on the same side - it would need a lot of explaining and Alien lore will take another hammering.
Nice pics though!
Is that a Yutani sign? Without the Weyland name on the logo? On the vehicle
The first AVP is better than Covenant for sure. However Requiem is something I have never been able to finish, and I have no idea why anybody would like it. What I hate the most about it is all the police procedural tropes, it's like they used the script for a really bad episode from a TV show and they just tossed the aliens in it.
*Puts on her Colonial Marines armor and locks an ammo pack into her pulse rifle* It appears we are on another bug hunt!
Something Real looks likes some type of secreted resin..... :P
IRAPTUS - Eww! What is that? :)
Big Dave
Maybe both ways are correct. There is an older world/s than the paradise planet, and they (the Engineers) somehow through evolution or genetic tampering lost their females and wished to bring them back.
They managed this on the Covenant planet so therefore saw this as a sacred dwelling to keep hidden and protected, that they could return to and take sacrifices from to seed further new worlds throughout the universe.
This sacred place then became the most favoured place to pluck there sacrifices from and they returned there over the years to take their individual seeder from that civilisation.
This vibes well with Ridleys comment that the ships returned there from time to time and the Engineers are the gardeners of space.
In this scenario there is obviously another older place where they originally hail from, which conflicts with Davids "original Engineers" comment from the Novel. Maybe he just meant that the peaceful Engineers in the robes etc seemed more original to him than the more advanced seeming military type who ripped his head off?.
Big Dave
Welcome and thanks for the thread compliment. I see you have moved away from you're view that possibly RS was sloppy with his CGI/effects/make up on how he made the Engineers on Covenant look. After reading the Novelisation I got the vibe that these possibly were indeed the type of Engineers we see in the opening Prometheus scene (the Sacrificial),or the 223 looking type but obviously without the armour suit and maybe you were right on that, but I'll leave that for now and focus on you're post.
Yes, if we apply the translation of the Prometheus extended opening scene, and then view that world as what will become the world we see in Covenant then we could possibly view it as the Engineers somehow through evolution and/or genetic tampering lost their females, and wished to gain them back. So they managed that and then this became a sort of paradise like place for a peaceful civilisation of male and female Engineers to dwell.
Thing im curious about is that David calls the Inhabitants Of The world on Covenant the "original Engineers". He clearly states that in the Novelisation so I thought that world was possibly unbelievably ancient, possibly one of the first, if not the first but they never advanced their technology there tooooo far, but kept it sort of more... primitive like (but not too primitive as the Novelisation refers to it as a metropolis and it seems much bigger than how the movie portrayed it). Still though, like a pure paradise sort of place where they can always come back to and bestow upon an individual soul a great honour of sacrificing themselves to begin the circle of life on a new world elsewhere. RS does say that he sees the Engineers as the gardeners of space and the ships come and go so that seems to me this place is where the "seeders" or sacrifices are taken from, like sort of the original template or something??.
Maybe you are right though and there was once an older world before that, and they lost their females somehow and after that they were always trying to bring them back and managed this on the Covenant world.
Thing is though I can't totally discount the comment RS made that they could create life the good old primitive way, but they simply chose to do it the genetic breakdown way.
There could be many reasons for this. Maybe they tried the colonist ship full of hundreds/thousands way once but had an accident that killed the colonists and therefore seeked for a safer way, and in time they came across/created the liquid substance and therefore then favoured that more advanced way instead of the old primitive way of flying hundreds/thousands of there kind to a new world and simply let them breed and spread like rabbits.
Maybe they came to look upon the genetic breakdown way as a more pure way, worthy of bestowing upon a favoured individual from their peaceful paradise planet?. Like a reward or gift, that the individual was happy to receive, viewing it as a great honour to be the spark that creates new life on a new world.
And it's not like they never had time on their hands, they seem to be arrogant enough to just go about their business being the gardeners of Space and flit around the universe returning to see how they're various gardens are growing even if it takes hundreds or thousands of years after the original seeding. They are very busy in the far reaches of various galaxies doing this I presume?.
@VivisectedEngineer
In the supplemental info on the Weyland website and Prometheus Blu Ray, it shows that the Prometheus was filing reports back to earth, such as one on the black pathogen, so they know about things they found.
No one at WU knows what David has done or what really happened to the Prometheus, just that they have not had a report from them in 10 years. David can tell them Weyland-Yutani whatever he wants them to know. He can also gain info about other exploration or colony ships. Lots of ways he can use WU to his advantage.
For all we know, Weyland may have given David command authority over the classified mission should something happen to him. All discoveries were to be exploited by the company anyway, so there would have been a whole team or division allocated to this mission that David may have authority over that he could use to his advantage.
He could tell them there is a bio weapon that WU could develop as a military weapon, just to get them to go look for in hopes that it would get brought back to Earth. That is exactly what Ash was trying to do. Had that happened, it would have wiped mankind out, which David would be very happy about.
The first one is probably just as good as half the other alien movies.
Second one is absolute trash though.
Cerulean Blue
Daliens
Yes we would certainly be able to swallow Weyland-Yutani knowing of the Engineers and just staying silent about it, as in not briefing Ripley or anybody aboard the Nostromo, or any of the other characters in the movies afterward, hence no mention of them in the older batch of movies.
Although really RS maybe just did not have them fleshed out fully and had no solid prequel plans at the time he made ALIEN so any mention of them as Engineers, and any mention of their doings is absent.
We could certainly swallow the whole classified/top secret thing though if that was the case.
@ Thoughts_Dream I agree with most of what you say, focusing on the Protomorph may be the way to go, and then introduce this form of self-aware biotechnology that @Big_Dave alluded at, and have it function as the new threat. It would be like a planet-killer superorganism that assimilates and becomes entire ecosystems what you would imagine as if mother nature herself had somehow become infuriated. Then it infects one of David's Protomorphs, and we get the Titular Biomechanoid/Gigermorph introduced as the final enemy/Big Bad. It should then kill Daniels and proceed to rip David's head off... only this time he should crush it and smile.
It's one of the most cringeworthy movies ever made. Seriously it's so horrible I can't even put it into words, godspeed OP.
I think Deacon becoming Queen is some wierd fluting to say the least
