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LV223 verse choice and its implications

Vickie B

MemberOvomorphJuly 21, 20167339 Views31 Replies

For those unfamiliar with the verse Leviticus 22:3 :

  Say to them "For the generations to come, if any of your descendants is ceremonially unclean and yet comes near the sacred offerings that the Isrealites consecrate to the Lord, that person must be cut off from my presence. I am the Lord."

I know how this verse applies within the Bible, but how might it apply to the Prometheus/Covenant world? I will posit my thoughts and hope to read thoughts of others. I also reserve the right to go in different directions...lol.

Firstly, I want to share what I believe to be the meaning of "ceremonially unclean". Because these Engineers are shown to be masters of manipulating DNA, I believe that "ceremonially unclean" is what you become when your DNA has been modified. When you have been mutated in some way.

Secondly, I would like to discuss the "sacred offerings". But before I can do that, I must tell you that I believe there may be 2 kinds of Engineers. The Engineers we see at the begining of the film look different than the Engineers we see near the end. Their skin is different. Why? I'll come back to this. There also seems to be aged Engineers here at the beginning (shown during a deleted scene) suggesting that they die and that they might also appear differently to one another much like we do, unless you are an identical twin. The Engineers we see near the end look identical to one another. The ships are different, too.

We like to associate the word 'sacred' with 'good', but that's not necessarily the case. 'Sacred' could simply mean 'dedicated to a religious purpose and therefore deserving of respect'. Not all religions are 'good'.

I believe that a "sacred offering" is shown to us at the beginning of the film in the form of an Engineer. He sacrifices, offers, himself in order to bring about intelligent life. Is he a good guy? It would appear so, but looks can be deceiving. They wear clothes. Why? I'll come back to this as well.

Let's skip to the temple, which some call the "head room". Here we see murals and such, as well as urns filled with fluid. This place is definitely a sacred place. Each urn, to me, is a sort of coffin or sarcophagus and it would explain Halloway's "tomb" comment. If we take what we see as a 'sacred offering' at the beginning of the film and apply it here, then what we can conclude here is that inside each of these urns is an Engineer who has consumed the catalyst which breaks them down. We are looking at many, many 'sacred offerings'. 

Now to betrack to my 'why'. Recall the story of Adam and Eve. Eve was created from the rib of Adam. (In the genetic sense, a rib bone is a very good candidate of a bone you can remove without hindering the donor in some way. Bone marrow is an excellent source of DNA.) One day Eve broke the rules and ate fruit from the forbidden Tree. They are cast out from the Garden of Eden. They are now sinners. Their lives will be toilsome...they will have to work hard for their needs. They also realize they are naked and, out of shame, create clothing to wear. They are not cut off from God, though. They just have to make offerings to him now to be redeemed.

So my thought is this: I think that it may be very possible that the Engineers we see wearing clothing at the beginning of the film are 'sinners'. They cannot easily make 'sacred offerings' by delivering and emptying urns. They must now perform this on location. And like childbirth will be very painful for the sinner Eve, performing the 'sacred offering' ceremony, which will eventually produce 'descendants', will be painful for the Engineer. They have been 'cast out' and now age...and die. They age because they are 'unclean'. Becoming unclean is quite possibly their sin. Mutating themselves. But it is also possible that aging, then dying, is a form of punishment for their sin. Is the ceremony we see at the beginning of the film an offering to gain redemption? 

I'm thinking that we are descendants of this 'sinner' race. We are considered 'unclean' because our makers, whose DNA we share, are 'unclean'. It is because we register as 'unclean' inside the temple that changes begin to occur there. By being in that room, we are breaking a covenant much like the Leviticus verse. The temple is able to recognize that we are inside because we had taken our helmets off. Going into that room in full suit is how the sinner race got in and out. It is this race we see running towards the temple during the holographic playback. It is their bodies we see piled up. 

These are my thoughts...and it makes me wonder if there are two home bases to go with the two races of Engineer. Which race's home base did Shaw and David go to?

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Diz
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BD:  You've got it going on, man, I never made these connections.  The comparison of us and apes, vs engineers and man; yeah I get that.  I never really understood why the engineer would go "high right" and just start killing everybody in that scene "for no reason". 

On a related note, man vs AI.  I think that one ain't gonna work out well either.  When the AI realizes he's superior to us, and/or tired of all our BS,what's to stop him from eliminating us?  And perhaps that would be our punishment for creating our own "slave race". 

MJ:  Yeah that was something I wanted to see as well.  How Shaw and David mend the fences and strive for some kind of détente (or covenant).  With the hints being Shaw doesn't have a big part, and lots of folks saying good riddance, I wasn't sure we'd see that.  I think that's a key part of the story and I hope it gets covered.    

 

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Vickie B
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The Star Maps and Ridleys comments suggest they had came to evolve us over and over, both Genetically and Technologically

Once again, I failed to convey correctly.  Lol! What I meant to say was that they had no idea man was going to be a product of their seeding. I believe they checked in from time to time and discovered us upon one of these visits. Once they discovered us, and saw our potential,  they nurtured us. I believe they never returned because the Engineers who are still loyal to the Alien race eradicated the rogues who created us. It is a loyal Engineer we see at the end of Prometheus who intends to eradicate us, the 'abomination'. The vermin. That Engineer marvelled over David for a second, before breaking him, because the Engineer was impressed at what these vermin (us) could accomplish.

The 'gods', the Alien race which created the Engineers, wanted their 'fire' back. I'm thinking the loyal Engineers achieved this, but not before the fight to get it back caused huge casualties on both sides.

One thing I want to ponder...

Shaw was not specific enough when she told David that she "wanted to go where they came from". He might take her request literally, even though he knew that she meant the Engineers' home planet. He has proven more than once that he can be a devious little android.

If he took her literally, then they won't necessarily be going to the Engineers' 'home planet', but instead where these loyal Engineers and their crew had just come from. And that could simply be to a planet the rogue Engineers had been banished to, or where they had been hiding out. The loyal Engineers arrived on LV223, to take back control of the structures and the 'fire' there, after erradicating the rogues on the planet where the rogues resided. After erdicating the rogues on the rogues' planet the loyal E's learned about us from the accessed data there. So after taking back the structures and the 'fire' within the structures on LV223, they were heading for us...to eradicate us as well. Just a thought...that, for now, makes sense to me.

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Vickie B
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I actually see a correlation between the Prometheus myth and this world Ridley has created. It goes like this:

God -> Titan -> Man

Alien -> Engineer -> Man

The titans had access to the God's 'fire'.  The rogue titan took it and gave it away behind the back of the God. The God realizes its forbidden use. Man keeps the fire, but the titan suffers a sort of painful banishment.

The Engineers had access to the Alien's 'fire'. The rogue Engineer took it and used it in forbidden ways, behind the Alien's back. When the Alien realizes its forbidden use, the rogue Engineer is sought out and killed. Man, a product of the forbidden use, is to be destroyed.

:D

 

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Michelle Johnston
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@VB & BD.

Billions of years ago the Engineers seeded baron planets. 

Thousands of years ago the same Engineers returned to us "nurturing" and even answered the question where they came from the Z R system.   

At the point after those final visits a catastrophic breakout of a deadly mutagen occurred on LV223. All the Engineers bar one perished and mankind continued to evolve. Mankind won.

What Prometheus is focusing on is the over reaching of the Engineers going beyond their original purpose (the fall) steeling of the fire sub creation freedom from bondage . However what they stole was a poisoned chalice and the sacrificial lifecycle lead to the mutagen. But why were they bent on the destruction on earth "you created us why did you then wish to destroy us". David said "because they can". However in Paradise Lost Satan seeks revenge for his fall by the corruption of mankind who are intended to replace the fallen angels in heaven. Perhaps the desire to destroy mankind was not just "because they can" but as revenge against their creators with whom they had rebelled echoing Satan's revenge. Is it not interesting that just at the moment when the mutagen is wrecking havoc/punishment on the LV223 Engineers they are setting off for earth on their deadly mission. Is it not also an example of felix culpa the fortunate fall that the matter that thwarts them is the impact of the mutagen on them. Either thousands of years later or several hundred years later the same felix culpa will be wound into the story of a certain Space Jockey, why did it land and set of the beacon because it completed the final sacrifice atoning for the sins of its race.Protagonist/Antagonist Redemption.

So how do we know the fallen angels went to war on heaven …. David will offer the narrative next year. Like BD I do not believe he is the narrative but he discovers the truth (and the knowledge and mechanism for which he will be the narrative).        

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Michelle Johnston
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@ Diz Man v AI 

This is some thing we have recently discussed at length the creator/creation paradigm.

It operates on several levels 

Creator/Engineer - rebellion breaking of bonds.

Mankind/David - "doesn't everyone want there parents dead" breaking of his bond with Weyland. 

The Engineers rebelled against there Covenant as gardeners which lead them to the creation of the Deacon in the mural.

David free of his Covenant with Elizabeth will lead to the creation of the new creature in Covenant (why Bio Mechanoid).

The Engineers were not content to simply serve as seeders/gardeners and sought freedom similarly David. His relationship with the Engineer culture which is becoming clearer and clearer is very much in evidence in  Covenant will be at the heart of the journey of the movie as he was crucial to the explaining and propelling the narrative of Prometheus.  

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Michelle Johnston
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@VB you mention earlier that the Alien Zenomorph represents the unclean version of the clean version of the Alien God. If the Engineers stole the creative power (The Promethean Myth) and then tried to create in God's image, as it was an act of sin it produced merely a counterfeit and hollow outcome. This echoes other mythologies (Tolkien and the Orcs as counterfeit Elves).

It would explain why they subjugated themselves to the face hugger believing this was a benign act. It would also explain why they offer the vials as sacred chalices to their god head. It was only once they had finally created a Deacon that they realised the error of their ways. Instead of an angel they created a serpent (Paradise Lost). When they set out on these experiments was it to create in God's image, quite possibly the Zeno strain represents an error or sin. Indeed it is self evident that whatever their intentions it was not to lead to their destruction.      

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BigDave
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Diz  Spot one ;)

Vickie, yes i understand where you are coming from a theory that well can also be plausible for sure, and was one theory i also had a long time back.. the thing is the ambiguity allows for many theories ;)

Indeed my take on a similar theory i had covered before and even the other day as one of a few possibilities.

The Seeding does not create Mankind... it creates the start of Evolution and Mankind was not planned...  but maybe these Engineers come back over periods of time and they do discover something interesting a life form with potential..

Maybe a Ape who knows, but then a Faction of Engineers then decide to tamper with the DNA more than they should have had to create us... without the consent of the Hierarchy..

A faction of Engineers had done, what Mankind had done with David... and they got punished for this.

But again this can be twisted to not be a creation on purpose... but a accidental one and then the further evolving and teaching this creation (Man) things is what was the Sin of these Engineers.

So yes that could work.... the beauty is there is no real single Theory that has any 100% Prove and its very open and i hope we get to explore which route they wish to take.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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Yes Vickie just checked i threw out some theories on this thread a few up ;)

But as far as whats really going on....  i did a post a long time ago about who the Engineers work for..

This was after Ridley made comments not long after the release of Prometheus about how he did not wish to Meet GOD in the First Movie... in relation to removing the Elders Scene perhaps?

Ridley then also had commented on how David and Shaw would beings who are not God in the traditional sense and are not Benevolent...

which means they meet a race or being that is above the Engineers maybe?

Ridley then said David is bringing Hell with him and what happens if the Black Goo infects... GOD... or Machine?

So i made a Topic in detail to discus who could be above our Engineers...

This gave options from ....

*A Race who the Engineers are created in their Image, like God/Angels... like Titans/Olympians

*The same Race just at a more elevated state.. like how Ancient Egyptians had Pharaohs who were more than mere Men, they were Demi Gods (but not)

*Was the creator a Machine, or Machines?

*Where they a Alien Race related to the Xenomorph?

*Was they another Alien Humanoid Race who did not look very Human/Engineer but are far from Totally Alien looking like Xenos... or are they a unrelated but very Alien Race?

*Finally is God a Divine Power, a Code... something that is not really Mortal... but maybe Energy or something else.

This was prior to other clues and comments from Ridley Years or many Months latter.... such as Biblical Fallen Angels and Prometheus Myth which he mentioned...

Which draws me to the beings above the Engineers as being similar... they are either a different cast... or they are just older and wiser versions and seen as Demi Gods (but not Gods) like Pharaohs.

Thus i think they are Humanoid and not Alien or Xenomorph related... but who knows...

We do have the Star Beast element... but in this while the Xenomorph would be a Ancient Race who are civilized they created Sacrificial Animals...

The Space Jockeys in this context where just explorers who suffered the same fate as Kane did.

Still any of these can still come into play...

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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BigDave
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If the Source however is correct and true, then it draws us to a more.... God/Angels (but more than one God) a Titan/Olympian  and Annunaki/Igigi  kind of role...  as for the Hierarchy and so we could see last level of this as Mankind/Android.

They did however hint to some Power these Engineers are under... this however does not have to mean literally a Supernatural Force..

Ridleys comments however backed this up a bit because he ponders... where is the Big Guy in all this..

Seems indeed what we are seeing is maybe a non-literal re-telling and connection to Paradise Lost.

Where maybe the Xeno strain is in context the Mutation of Fallen Angels to Serpents... and the Punishment of Satan to produce Sin (his daughter)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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Vickie B
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Thanks everyone for your input! I read as much as I could here on this forum until I couldn't hold my thoughts in any longer.  Lol!  You guys have great ideas and I'm going to try to catch up on the rest. 

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Vickie B
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If the Source however is correct and true, then it draws us to a more.... God/Angels (but more than one God) a Titan/Olympian  and Annunaki/Igigi  kind of role...  as for the Hierarchy and so we could see last level of this as Mankind/Android.

This makes sense to me.

I've never read Paradise Lost, so I am unfamiliar with it, but if it talks about fallen angels, then they would equate with my rogue Engineers. Maybe I'll read it soon so that I can relate it to these films.

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