Regeneration in Alien: Covenant

@BD

As we move ever closer to Covenant I am more interested in looking at how the specific narrative might evolve built on the concepts that have been laid down by Prometheus or as Carlyn has called it a prologue. Ridley was very clever introducing Lindelof he gave the story its much broader mythology though Jon had some good ideas. However he was equally clever in letting going of him because the world Prometheus has created now needs a firm and clearly defined narrative. Green and Paglen would have carried the existisitential nature of the story further, with the Alien prefix, the life cycle and John Logan they have decided to harden the mythos into a strong relatable story set inside the world that Spaights created and Lindelof expanded.

We can look in the rear view mirror at the curious and multifaceted way the journey has been made with several sat navs going off contradicting themselves but I am only looking into the rear view mirror for signs of where to go next. I know all the contradictions but the next two movies are about answering those questions which are really relevant to the bigger story.Those answers may contradict earlier suppositions even versions in tie in materials but for me the curiosity is in looking at all the materials at our disposal and playing them through into the next stage selecting those which seem most probable. I know the Engineers have suffered a disaster out of which punishment emerges precisely at whose hands I am not entirely sure of nor, do I know precisely where the Space Jockey fits in to the decided upon narrative I have looked at all the variables but I know the Jockey and the cargo are part of the same story and its another consequence of their fall.           

Put simply like Caryn I am very clear on the thematic elements of the evolving story and I have some confidence in whose doing what in Covenant how the precise narrative plays out how they finish is what I aim to find out next August but I am not being hijacked or distracted by every minute evolution of the casting of the big themes that has gone on since 1979.  

Big Dave:

 

I never understood the things about the worms, they turned into Hammerpedes right? I never understood why they had those except for the acid for blood thing so adding them was a bad thing. They could have had something else instead of the worms that would have made more sense. As far as the Deacon goes it isn't as confusing since it reminds me more of the Xeno and I sort of understand of how it was made (Shaw – Squid – Engineer – Deacon).

 

Stories should be somewhat consistent which Lindelof doesn't seem to be capable of doing. Some mystery is OK but his writing seems to go too far. He says that the movie answered these questions but if you must dissect the movie 1000 times to get the answer then to me the movie is badly written even though I understand what he is saying. I don't say that Prometheus is rotten or the worst movie that I have watched but I say that it could have been so much better (better in this case means clearer, and also better characters).

 

They should have had more of the Spaight's script although maybe not all of it. At least things in his script made more sense even though it wasn't perfect. You mention that there are contradictions in his script (which I have read) so they could have been polished but at least it wasn't as confusing as the version that Lindelof wrote.

 

As far as the Xeno being a result even though it wasn't their intention could be true as it could explain why the engineers are extinct. They made a weapon that was too perfect and they died because of it.

 

Didn't Janek said that they wouldn't make weapons of mass destruction at their door step? So they got LV-223 as a place to test their weapons and as Janek said it turned on them.

 

It will be interesting to see what AC will give us and I hope that it is more coherent than Prometheus was and better thought out.

 

 

Michelle: Some of what Lindelof did was alright, I like that he added more mystery to it but he went too far. Too much mystery in a way that isn't constructed as far as the story goes just makes it confusing.

I don't know too much bout Spaights or Lindelof but at least Spaights way of writing isn't as confusing which is a good thing. If I must choose between Spaights or Lindelof I would choose Spaight's way of writing since it doesn't seem to be as confusing. Coherent stories are better than confusing ones even though I like a bit of a mystery. There got to be a way to make it not overtly clear but not extremely confusing either.

 

Maybe some scenes that were made wasn't as confusing when it was based on the script by Lindelof but that the way that they cut it made it worse. I don't think that everything that went bad was Lindelof's fault but I bet that Scott and Fox are also heavily involved in the underwhelming result that we got. Hopefully they will not make a complete U-turn and make AC totally obvious as a story but that they have less contradictions, less confusing things, and better characters. No petting space cobras, and no removing helmets, for example. When I see these two things I still wonder “what are these idiots doing?” If they would have similar scenes they should at least explain these actions with dialogue something that some of the cut scenes explained. Don't cut things that explain important things in the movie that will just look dumb if you don't explain them. This doesn't mean that you got to lower yourself to how you explain things to a three year old but you see my point.

 

It could be interesting to know about some of the experiments that the Engineers did at LV-223.

 

@Thoughts_Dreams...

The Worms have been covered before and i dont want to go off topic and in to detail... the simple way to look at it is this.

Urns ==> Biological Evolutionary Accelerant 

They contain some DNA/Traits related to the Xenomorph and the Goo passes these onto what ever Genetic Material they come into contact with...  The Goo also evolves a Organisms most best/suitable traits.

Black Goo ===> Infects Organisms DNA

It attacks and changes a Organisms DNA,  breaking it down and replacing it with Xeno DNA/Traits, however the Goo will also look at the Native DNA and see if their is any traits that will prove a advantage over the Xeno DNA and these traits are evolved.

The Result is the Worms become a Hybrid of Worm/Xeno DNA as a result they gain a few traits similar to a Face Huger.

In regards to Michelle

Yes i think they need to try and get a WORKING STORY that can tie in Alien, Prometheus and the Franchise....

The bottom line is regardless of what Alien is based off, regardless of Ridleys comments regardless of EVERYTHING...   The only thing that really matters is what is Shown in the Movie Franchise...

The movies are the definitive Canon... and its what changes was made to them for the Theatrical Cuts that are Canon.

And so yes everything else does not have to matter or apply, its only what they show that applies and so far as far as Canon a lot of stuff was proposed and acted as the PLOT and back ground but have been dropped and we may simply have to accept these things do not EXIST

Unless and Until future movies Theatrical Cuts link to these or include them.

Things that where Shot and meant to be included that have been dropped include.

*The Egg Morph Scene....

*The Elder Engineers....

*Scenes that show the Engineers to not just be Biological Terminators...

some scenes had to be cut for pacing and because they never ended up being the way they had ideally wanted them to look.

The Egg Morph was one of these, this does not mean they cant show us this is canon.. but until any future movies show us this then we can not ultimately add it as a way the Organism Procreates.  Despite it being the backbone idea behind the whole concept of the Alien.

The Elder Engineers they was not impressed with how frail and feeble they looked and so we have to accept that we have not seen any Elder Engineers,  future movies could introduce them as looking totally different or maybe even not looking old and frail at all.

My point being that i agree Michelle they have to get back to a working Narrative and make something Solid that can tie it all in together.

A few things the Franchise has never shown us is.... EXACTLY

When/How and Why the Xenomorph was created... there was clues but they was vague and they can change their minds as to how these clues should be taken.... and so far there is Nothing 100% Set in Stone to explain the following... not as far as shown on screen (ignoring Ridleys comments or anyone elses).

What year the Xenomorph was created.

How long the Space Jockey had been on LV-426

If the events of the Space Jockey had occurred prior or after Prometheus.

What role the Engineers had in terms of the Xenomorph.

Alien Covenant could be a movie that U-Turns on some things and it could show us the movies events connect to Alien, its got many people wandering if the events of David and the Covenant Crew lead directly to Alien and the Space Jockey.

I hope not... and we have two more movies after to connect to that and i think with a period of under 20 years from the events post Alien Covenant and Alien... does such a space of time and two movies really need to address two decades of history Three if we include Prometheus to get from Engineers Biological Soup to Alien...   without giving us reasons as to why the company seemed to not know too much in Alien.

What ever route they take.... i hope they can give us a story that ties in and links most of the things lacking connection.

We need it to not be or to leave any ambiguity.... so as that the Story they tell from Alien Covenant to Alien connects and does not leave many of us needing to Question things and argue points that simply dont add up.

Prometheus left a lot of such things.... i think the story was ambiguous but the cutting also affected it and it appears the Final Cut was trying to point us down a route that maybe was different a bit to the shooting script was.

Spaights writing was less ambiguous, it laid down things in a manner that most people would not need to question it was done in pretty much a similar fashion to how we got ALIENS

It was easy to draw the lines between the dots....

Prometheus was easier to understand if you read Spaights draft and remember its a evolution of his draft and still use the less ambiguous ideas in his draft as a reference to understanding Prometheus.

It appeared they had some big ideas for the Franchise, but it would maybe be a bit too deep a Plot with so much going on that would distract viewers....

And i think the KEY thing was most people thought Prometheus would be a Prequel that would answer a FEW Things.

Why the Space Jockey had the cargo, what connection with the cargo and when/why was the Xeno created.

And sadly Fox seem to think the only thing that matters is the Xenomorph.... rather than the expanded Mythos Prometheus was trying to address....  i am concerned they was going to tone this down and just simplify things...

Which i guess is what they had to do from the Start.... but once they have opened the Can of Worms that expanded on the Space Jockey/Engineer History and Agenda in relation to our creation and then the creation of the Xenomorph to deal with us....  I think its hard to explore one part of this and ignore the other...

A even more worry is how they may feel Ripley has to be as important part...... i dont want Ripley links.... not if we dont get any explanation to the Engineers connections to the Prometheus Mythos and Paradise Lost.

@BD

Ridley has developed a vision a multi layered story of revelation. Let us hope he has the opportunity to film it and remains in good health.   

The reason we have gone back to the Zeno morph rather than move off at a a tangent is because Ridley has recognised that is  were the centre of the story lies however grand. There are a number of reasons he has come to that conclusion but he also recognises that the story must be grounded in strong inclusive characterisation the Martian being in his mind as Prometheus 2 went Alien PL > C.

As John Logan said everyone was uneasy about how to include the Zenomorph in Prom but they are now at peace with the beast but as Michael Fassbender has indicated they have blended the sensibilities of A L I E N with the big ideas of P R OM E T H E U S.   

I am certain we will find out all we need to know about the Engineers as regards the Black Goo how they fell and the emergence of the evolving creature. The key though this is a story now about A L I E N zero and not A L I E N universe.

Shaws in, Davids in, the evolving creature is in, Paradise and what happened is in, and Weyland Yutani have sent out  a curious mixture of the knowing and unknowing who all get to wake up next August seems like a plan.  

I have to say though discussing Prometheus and what it means has been hugely enjoyable and I really have enjoyed not being spoon fed. We are archaeologists we know something happened  and it went wrong but we haven't found out yet the precise story we many never, just like the linked technology across earth has not received a satisfactory answer. Art imitating Life. 

I agree Michelle

I think the interest in Alien 5 compared to the not so much interest in Shaw and David meeting these Giant white Bald Humanoids wanting to know why they created us and then wanted to destroy us.... while stepping away from Alien and the Xenomorph....

It seemed Fox started to see where fans wanted to go, and however bold the story behind the Engineers as yes the XENOMORPH  and Why, How and When may be something they gave clues which they hoped was enough... but sadly for the fans it was not and the Purpose of doing a Prequel was to find out the Space Jockey Race, its connection with the Cargo on LV-426 and the How, When and Why.

I think while the Xenomorph may just be one part of the bigger Engineer and their creators Agenda and History much like maybe that Gunpowder and its impact on Warfare for Mankind is just one small part of Humans History.

The Xenomorph objective was the reason for doing the prequels... they may have changed their minds and felt the Xenomorph could be navigated away and expand on the Engineers, but now seems after Prometheus did not do the trick they had hoped for they are now going back to expanding on the Xenomorph.

To be fair it may be the best way to go, because its all about $$$$$ and Fox cant risk a movie that covers the Xenomorph and why with less answers and more ambiguity while exploring the Space Jockey Engineers if they felt that the Xenomorph was the bigger draw and fans wanted the explanations.

With Alien 5 potentially also stepping on the connections toes, it makes sense for a Prometheus sequel to cover these things sooner rather than latter.  And then allow Alien 5 to touch up on what ever it wanted without touching upon or contradicting or giving away anything that the Prometheus Trilogy would eventually want to cover...

Hopefully this movie is one that would give some connections to the Xenomorph and Alien and tie into Prometheus as far as the Black Goo.... but keep some things back....

So it would give fans more of a Alien connection, that after they see Alien 5 may make more connections and then (as Alien 5 may touch upon different Xeno strands and Engineer Technology) it may bring those non-Prometheus fans to ask...

Who are these Engineers and Puppet masters behind all of this...  having had more of a satisfying fix of the Xeno clues.

They may be left wanting to know about those who was behind in more detail and what else they do....

As opposed to skip Xeno clues and go more into the Engineers and have fans not buy into it.... and be disappointed and not interested.

I do think the scope they had was HUGE, but maybe its a too bold a Plot and it needs to be made more simple...

When i was working on a Prometheus 2 draft, the Engineers Agenda, History etc and how it fitted in with the Xeno was a sticking point.....

in hindsight having the Space Jockey as the Predator was (prior to AVP) and just some Ancient Alien race involved in some conflict who happened to end up on LV-426 and so never created Mankind, and maybe never intended the Xeno for us..

This would have been a more simple path to follow, a Generic Alien movie... even if they intended it for us... maybe if it was in the same regards as a Independence Day or Battleship... then it would have been easier.

No soon as they connected Engineers as our creators and the events that effected them and us are similar to that of the Bible and Greek Mythos... then for how Bold the Plot was..

It was a Poisoned Chalice so to speak.

 

 

I am wondering if they are leaving the events as ambiguous as far as what happened between Prometheus and Alien Covenant... so we get the aftermath with some clues... but not a full in depth story.

Which then leaves Alien Covenant with a open ended story like Prometheus.... where we could either follow David and Shaw... or maybe see what happens on LV-223 if the company sent a rescue mission.

And so with Covenant maybe we would get so many ambiguous unanswered questions as far as what became of the Engineers that it leaves this as something to explore latter if they gauge that fans would be pleased to see this... once they have their Xeno answers.

Or to forget about the Engineers and press on to how events can connect to Alien....

If there is any hope... it is that with this movie giving us a more Xeno connection... followed by another TWO Alien Prequels before we get to Alien.....   as well as a Alien 5 and potential Alien 6 if the Torch is being passed on.

This is a lot of movie time to cover our Xenomorphs and Ripley...... and so there is hope that latter Alien Prequels will give us more about the Engineers.

The Source said that the Plots for Paglen and Greens Story was a 3 Plot Story.... they referred to it as in Prometheus had really Two Plots.... and that Shaw and Holloways Quest to go to the Place of the Star Maps as being ONE PLOT and Main One.

They said that the Paglen/Green Plot was a 3 Plot one, where David and Shaws mission to go to Paradise for Answers was One Plot but there was TWO Larger ones.

They also said that Xenomorph related connections was maybe 20-25% of the whole movie and that includes having TWO kinds of Monster.   They said Prometheus actually carried a lot of Xeno Connections only they was vague and never shown much Xeno DNA related Organisms.

So it seems they wish to give us more on the Xeno first... and hope this then pleases the fans and leaves them more intrigued to find out more about these Evil Engineers.

 

As far as being Spoon Fed... yes i think sometimes having to use your brain or discuss things and not be able to come up with a complete answer that everyone else has....

Is a good thing... its one of the things Lindeloff is proud of with Prometheus... at the end of the day if it was a Spoon Fed Flick as much as Aliens was then i think it would not be a movie that has as many debates as Prometheus has.

I hope they dont go the Spoon Fed route... but i do worry it may be a movie thats a bit more Spoon Fed to please those who did not understand Prometheus at all..... its the Ripley links and comments like the Franchise is Ripley that has me concerned big time.

And Alien 5 i think will be a Knee Jerk Reaction Pop corn Flick.... it would be like doing a Ghost Busters 4.... and bring back all the old Cast in All their Old Roles for the next movie to deal with the disappointment of the latest installment..

Only having Weaver replace the role of Ramis (R.I.P)

Big Dave:

 

At least I hope that they will answer the things that are the most important to this movie.

 

 

1. How was the Xeno created

2. What was the role of the Engineers and how they are related to the SJ

 

I think that they can leave out some things in how the Xeno was created but the main thing should be written in a way so we can understand it. Hopefully we won't get A, B,C, D, E, and F But maybe AB D and F. As long as we get the parts that are most important then they can leave some of them out, that is my point.

 

They don't need to give us everything about how the SJ and the Engineers are related but they can show us the main things like the way I described above. For example they can explain that the SJ was a part of the Engineer army that flew planes and changed what ever life forms that they felt had to be changed but we don't need to see when they take off and crash lands because that should be known by now at least what happened in general. One thing that I don't want to happen is that since many found Prometheus to be dumb and confusing then the studio will try to dumb down the movie by being overly explanatory so there will be no mystery. There could be a risk for this to happen so I hope that they will keep it in the middle of these two extremes so to speak.

 

Maybe John Spaights's script would have been too obvious but at least it wasn't confusing and the characters seemed to be better than how they were in Prometheus. The script by Spaights's would probably have been better than what we were given but at the same time there were things that could have been changed in his script, they just changed it too much in what became the final movie in order for me to really like it. When I read what they initially had (script-wise) and what finally became of it, the final result becomes even more disappointing even though I still watch it from time to time even though I must say that it was probably months ago since the last time that I watched it.

 

You are not alone....

Many fans wanted those basic questions more directly answered i think its why Prometheus disappointed... i think its why Alien Covenant was born.... and changed from Prometheus 2....

Fox understands that maybe had those Two Questions been answered more clear maybe they would have done better with the movie.

I actually did not like Spaights draft much, it was too popcorn and served similar to Alien Resurrection... some nice ideas and i preferred Lindeloffs re-write.... only it was too ambiguous but most of this was as the shooting script was different to Lindeloffs and then we had awful editing...

The Xeno elements should not have been toned down as much and a movie that sat half way between Spaights and Lindeloffs i feel would have been the Movie we all needed.

I was going to re-write Lindeloffs draft to include some of Spaights DNA and then add some of my own to splice them together.. but never got round to it.

Lindeloff said Prometheus had the answers....

The Source claimed the clues was there but the casual viewer without any references would not make them.

To me here is what i ULTIMATELY saw as the answer to your Questions....  but these could now be changed with Alien Covenant... but as of Prometheus here is what i made from those Questions...

1) How was the Xeno created

Its a bit ambiguous..... but it would appear that the Xeno was a either.

a) A experiment that created something related and the Xeno was one of many off-shoots of trying to Perfect a Experiment.

b) Something they came across or was used on them, led to them seeing something similar to the Xenomorph and they then decided to Re-Engineer and Experiment with this DNA and a off-shoot was the Xenomorph.

c) They had came across the Xenomorph and they had re-engineered it on LV-223 to create different variations but the Xeno was the Original or something very similar... (this is my least supported theory)

d) They created the Xenomorph, and then as above continued to experiment/evolve with its DNA which led to the LV-223 Experiments. (again as above i dont think this holds well)

So to answer the Question..... A or B

But Alien Covenant could give more clues to suggest otherwise and indeed so far it is making me have to rethink what Prometheus made me think.

2) What was the role of the Engineers and how they are related to the SJ

This was more simple.... but again Prometheus gave us it in a more simple way... Prometheus 2 and Covenant are adding more to it.

Prometheus tried to show us that the Space Jockeys are in effect Ancient Humanoids, who had played a role in the creation of Mankind... they are in effect who ancient mankind saw as Gods from where the Tales that led to the Bible, Greek Mythos and others came from....  At some point in time these Engineers had got angry and disappointed with us.... we had upset them and so they had carried out Bio-Weapon Experiments to Destroy us.

why? its vague.... but hinted at maybe different castes of Engineers or different factions of the same race, involved in some conflict.....  

Was we created by one faction without the consent of the Hierarchy or was we created with the consent... but some Engineers had taken it to interact and teach us forbidden knowledge in exchange for Worship?  And this lead to a War between Factions..   and we got caught up in at as far as needing to be destroyed..

Or upgraded... to something else the LV-223 Engineers then saw as more Perfect than their Own Genetic Make up..

It really is a open ended and bold plot....

The Xenomorph just being a Weapon Created to use in such conflict.

Big Dave:

 

Not only did they answer them in some ways that were confusing, my main disappointment was that most of the characters were annoying or stupid. There were some scenes that explained some things for example Fifield and Milburn found a small worm before they found the thing that killed them. The small worm went without problems so they were not as afraid when they met the creature that killed them. That scene before and to have some dialogue that explained that they had faced creatures before and it went fine could have explained a lot.

 

One other things that annoyed me was that they didn't kept subtitles when the Engineer spoke, that would have explained a lot. Without the subtitles you are kept wondering what the hell the big guy is about, it makes no sense. Would they have worked some with the editing it would have been a lot better. I have watched some scenes for example with the Engineer that Weyland and David wakes up, there they have subtitles or something similar, it makes a lot of sense. Why they kept that out is a mystery and it is dumb. It was like they didn't really try to give answers in a way where you didn't have to be 100% awake through out the whole movie. For some reason it became that you got to concentrate on this and that detail to understand it and nothing is explained very good. At least I get tired when there are too many details that I got to pay attention to and remember.

 

I hope that they will explain the connection between the Engineers, the SJ, and the Xeno better in AC. If they fail to do this I probably won't bother with Prometheus 3 or what ever it will be called but I hope that they will manage to get a movie that makes sense and that has characters that are alright.

 

Actually I am looking forward to Alien Covenant but I do not have that big expectations after what became of Prometheus. More Xeno connections (pre-Xeno monsters), and better characters would be nice.

 

Spaights draft wasn't perfect but I liked it much better than Lindelof's so we have different opinions about that but it is OK. The good thing about Spaight's draft was that it had better characters and more connections to the Xeno but it probably had something that could have been changed for the better. It was better than what ended up on the screen (which in part was because of bad editing). Yes the editing was very bad (for example they cut the Fifield Xeno, when Weyland spoke to the Engineer, and so on). Some scenes that were cut should have stayed, that would have made the movie a lot better so the editing is also to blame.

 

They should have been clearer about the Xeno connection, I agree. I would have liked to see your draft it would probably have been better than what we got.

 

@BD & TD

For me we are precisely where Lindelof wanted us to be. Without any further movies (right now) we can speculate and fill in the detail ourselves. The fascinating part of that for each of us is

A) We have to give ourselves permission, as Katherine indicates in experiencing Inherant Vice, to enter into that kind of open ended relationship.

B) We have to look for the truth in the story not our projections.

If you invest the time in what is on screen and ignore all the variables not included the answers are all there :-

1) The experiments which lead to the creation of the monster in the fresco and Deacon in the mural created a side effect the Mutagen strain. It was an Ebola moment for the Engineers which turned on them. What were they trying to do :-

a) Sub create through their sacrificial rituals and create a new strain which they could use to ethnic cleanse what they concluded needed to be stopped because they were unhappy with the outcome and also felt threatened by it. Ridley talks about this in the autumn podcast with Empire in relation to 2001. 

b) Rebel against their sacrificial role and break their bonds. 

Everything in Prometheus indicates the Space Jockey is a humanoid who shares our DNA and their aggressive revisionism indicates that what was in the hold represented their cargo. We learn Shaw is wrong they are simply a "superior" species.

We do not need not need to see the lifecycle we are familiar with to work that out and we do not need to see a derelict make an emergency landing to know the above.

What Damon also said however is that more specific answers created in the mind of Ridley would clarify his vision and it will be interesting, very interesting to see how the elliptical answers in Prometheus come to be part of the hard narrative.

@Thoughts - Dreams

I have said before the pot smoking Fifield, alcoholic binging Holloway and Jesus sandals Shaw are to me characters that emanate truth about the human experience. What is missing from the film which wasn't from ALIEN or will be from COVENANT is the mendacious nature of the Weyland effect. That was a shame because Sir Peter was the architect of this horribly self serving organisation and whilst I understand Ridley was trying to reveal the plot late it should have been done in away that we and Shaw went ballistic when we found all of them were pawns of his outrageous vanity, putting Vickers on board as a non believer for Sir Peter was I think a mistake and her role should have been one of outright covert support and then the poor discipline and short termism of the crew would have made more sense.

When you hit the theatre next summer look for David Covenant another robot and Daniels and security to be using the couples and their mission in a much more directly dysfunctional way so the companies reaction to the beast are understood and the fate of the couples makes sense, rather than simply call the film out for them being stupid and naive because they in the end are stupid and naive. Just as others who have migrated down the centuries are exploited when seeking Shangri La so this group will be. They are idealists who are awaiting a horrible awakening just as our history is littered with such examples.    

@BD 

I prefer to stick with the philosophical arcs and let the timelines fall into place of the own accord. We can get tied up in knots over when the Xeno and when the fall and when the Derelict. The why and who will create the when and then we have to just go with a timeline answer which is to a greater or lesser extent about artistic licence just as the size of the Jockey is about artistic licence. As James Cameron said when answering critiques of the same nature why did they not find the derelict for 20 years its about serving the story telling. If the story is powerful enough "we are them they are us" I can live with those kinds of bending of the rules.     

 

  

 

  

Michelle J: The human experience, I see what you mean but you can't have a movie where the main characters are unlikable and in one situation after another make dumb decisions. Sure all decisions that humans do are not good but all the bad things that they did in Prometheus and Shaw lacking any rationality what so ever is just too much for me.

Vickers is just another character that I didn't care for. She was bitchy and had daddy issues so I couldn't feel very much for her when she died I was like “well another annoying fucker dead”. Her “king has his regin and then he dies” should have been expanded on to show what Vickers aimed for. To just have a line like that without expanding on it doesn't help very much the way I look at it.

AC, I think that it will be interesting to see what David and Daniels will do in that movie. I am honestly interested to see if they will have better characters this time around because I doubt that they can sink much deeper than Prometheus did character-wise. Sure the company might be using them but their actions (the characters) must make more sense this time or else it will another failure but at least Lindelof isn't around this time. Not to say that Lindelof was responsible for everything bad about Prometheus but he didn't help the situation.

“When you hit the theatre next summer look for David Covenant another robot and Daniels and security to be using the couples and their mission in a much more directly dysfunctional way so the companies reaction to the beast are understood and the fate of the couples makes sense, “

I might misunderstand here but do you mean that the company might try to sabotage their ship in order to get the monster? I am not sure what you are trying to say here but I blame it on the fact that English isn't my first language. Anyways I am looking forward to the movie but I am having doubts being that I also thought that Prometheus could be a good movie.

 

"For me we are precisely where Lindelof wanted us to be. Without any further movies (right now) we can speculate and fill in the detail ourselves. The fascinating part of that for each of us is"

Indeed and he is very proud of this, if his movie was spoon fed and gave all the answers then we would not have as much to discus.

@Thoughts_Dreams

Yes your points about the flaws of Prometheus are valid...

The movie was more about the PLOT... the plot being what Race was behind the Xenomorph and Space Jockey and what kinds of things this Race do that connects to the Xenomorph.

And in that a lot of characters are plot devices.....  a bit like most horror movies... we watch them and see characters do something silly  "no dont unlock the door and go out of the cellar the Vampire is still outside.. wait until morning"   or "no dont go out to that shed on your own"

These are all needed to drive the Plot... without Fifield and Milburns silly actions.. we would not have seen the Hamerpede and connection with Black Goo/Xeno DNA or the Mutated Fifield etc.

To be fair with Lindeloff his draft was not to bad.... Ridley and his production crew who worked with him with regards of doing a Shooting Script had made Changes and it was Ridley Scott who was tasked with putting Lindeloffs Characters to screen.

I think Lindeloff gets used as a scapegoat a lot

@Michelle

Indeed we dont need every detail, the exact when and why...  its like Prometheus.... we see Shaw go back to David has he tells her there is a way to leave that place.... she collects his head and body...  absails out of the Juggernaught... next she is rushing across the surface on the Buggy with Davids body and head and we hear her SOS and signing off message.... as she is off to the other Ships that David said there was...

Then we go to see a Juggernaught leaving.... what the hell happened between driving the Buggy and David to where this ship was located and how they hell did they manage to fly away with David in Two Parts?

I did not matter.... and if it never mattered in context of those scenes, then it does not have to be shown in Alien Covenant.... and maybe the same applies to the 10 years from that Event to when the Covenant arrives...  not in full detail.

And so yes you are correct.... but as far as the Space Jockey Story... Ridley had teased that another movie may have to be done to cover this... but in reality i dont think it needs to be.

If the Source is correct and also if we consider Ridleys plans for Prometheus 2 (where they would meet some beings on Paradise) the again its a movie with a lot going around the Plot with little substance and Character Depth....

And i think this is where Logan was brought in, to tidy up and simplify the Plot or parts that need to be told and give us a great story arch that really brings the audience in to the Characters like Alien did.  And Aliens and Alien 3 to a degree... and not like Alien R and the AVP movies failed to do.

@BD

Your thoughts on how we went from the Pandemonium phase to A : PL > C is spot on. The reason that the Martian was available to Ridley is because they were having trouble with the script. Given the type of movies the first two writers had made I can see why. It would have been very enigmatic and symbolic but not a strong person centred narrative. Ridley through the Martian rediscovered what made Alien work and that has lead to him getting comfortable with the beast. But he is very explicit in the Podcast from Empire what makes it interesting is the why and who so the next one or two movies will be a real challenge on this you can only answer the question of who and why once. if big idea David (he is really excited about this) and Daniels have a really strong film and capture the general publics imagination then we can move on with confidence and open up the layers. It is an obvious thing to say its going to depend on what A C delivers as questions and how well its received.

@Thoughts_dreams   

Just to clarify my point the difficulty I see with Prometheus, for many, is the characters roles rather than clearly identified as sympathetic or unsympathetic were a lose affiliation of chancers. With A and A's we knew who was who and John Logan will do the same thats how he writes. Protagonist can become Antagonist and vice versa and redemption can happen for either but as we move into the second act and begin to discover the truth of Paradise we will be with some characters and not others and some will surprise us. We were never meant to hold up any of the characters in Prometheus all of them were testing the boundaries and the real hero was Janek and his co pilots who were quite emotionally anonymous to us even at that point of their sacrifice. What we were supposed to connect with in Prometheus were the audacity of the big ideas. It was a symphony rather than a song. it is a long term relationship rather than a one night stand.

A C will court both the big ideas that we have been opened up to and the connection we made with character in A L I E N. My only niggling concern at the moment is the cut. I much prefer the extended cut of Gladiator because it explains plot point changes better and Ridley does not like to hang around so he may cut harder than I would prefer. That said Alien and Martian were just fine in the theatrical cut.      

 

 

 

 

Michelle: I am not sure what you mean when you say a bunch of chancers? Do you mean fortune seekers? Sorry but English isn't my main language. Fortune seekers or not but they way they are presented makes people decide for or against them. I decided that I didn't like the characters, a bunch of chancers or not.

Hopefully the characters will be a pleasant surprise as we move into the story (as you put it). If we were never to like any of the characters in Prometheus, then what's the point? You can't have a movie where we are not supposed to like any of the characters because then the movie sort of loses its quality. No characters in Prometheus surprised me, they were equally unlikable (most of them). Janek was a well done character to me at least but I can see if some people thought that Janek was badly written. As far as the co-pilots I agree, I don't even know what the point of them was. The pilot in Aliens (Ferro) was kind of cool, even though her role wasn't that big they managed to do it good but the pilots in Prometheus were just anonymous I don't know how else to put it. Small characters (as far as importance and screen time) can be well done but those weren't.

 

The thing is: if you don't care for the characters then you don't care about the ideas either. You can't make people care for the ideas if the characters that are badly written because then the focus will be “why didn't they get the characters right” rather than “oh these were some interesting ideas”, at least that is the way that I generally react.

AC will hopefully focus more on the reason why they initially did Prometheus, to make an Alien prequel. There are some things that I worry about: mainly the characters, and if they will cut things that will make things make sense in the movie. For example there was a cut scene where Fifield and Milburn found a small alien that like a larvae which went fine and that is why they didn't get afraid about the space snake. If they would have kept the larvae scene in that would have to a part explained the scene with the Hammerpede and why they didn't get that afraid but they way it was executed was just retarded. Don't cut scenes that are needed to explain another scene if those two are in some way connected. I saw a review of Prometheus and there they showed that cut scene and then the Fifield and Milburn scene made sense. Just to know that there was a scene that would have explained something that just was foolish without that made me more disappointed in how Prometheus was done and the result of it. The reviewer goes under the name Comicbookgirl19 (on Youtube).

The scene with Fifield and Milburn is explained here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSaKxB-8YlE

4:21-6:46

 

I haven't watched the Martian so I can not say anything about it.

@Thoughts_Dreams.

What I mean by chancers is all the characters had there own disconnected reason for being there. There was no sense of pride or collective unity in the mission they were all just doing a job and if they had not been there just for the pay check they would have stayed behind.

They were cynical (Fifield), naively optimistic (Milburn), riddled with interpersonal issues Shaw and Vickers. But the real reason they were there is because of the hubristic vain glorious Weyland. If his role had cut through more clearly by having the original scene on Mars where he sets up the mission and Shaw and Holloway and the administrator (Vickers) had been his stooge then everyones behaviour makes sense.

I do not need to like a character to be engaged in the movie and the fact that Weyland was daft enough to go up against a race even he believed had the power of life who turned out to have the power of death for mankind is to me a very powerful morality tale.

In the very best of literature there are always characters who one doesn't take to your difficulty is you just did not believe in them as functioning correctly if thats the case then you will never enjoy the movie. What I would argue with some confidence is that each portrayal was realistic. I have met Milburn's Oilfield's and Shaws over and over again they resonate for me and with in science fiction that grounds the huge ideas in reality to see people come into the story who behave just like other human beings we meet every day. These are not Bruce Willis characters or Star Wars characters (saturday morning cinema) they are like Cate Blanchett as Carol fascinating real to me.       

I am of course not suggesting you are wrong we all are our own bundle of perceptions built on our unique experiences. As I get older through I notice the younger generation of viewers seem to want bullet proof (super)heroes with a cool dry sense of humour and or a fancy piece of ironmongery that to me is uninteresting and one dimensional I see humankind as deeply vulnerable and fallen so I want that in my art.

I am huge fan of Person of Interest and although the core team are high achieving they are all unhappy or disconnected in some way and were I am right now in Season 4 they are losing to the machines. Where the morality lies is with the character/number they save they are always flawed indeed as P O I moves on the team appear somewhat like latter-day angels transcendent through there work with the machine.  

 

 

@BD

As C O V E N A N T will answer the why and who would make such a thing and the Egg is in and we know a whole lot of motifs from Prometheus I think A : C will clarify how we should see what we experienced on LV223. 

We may not get direct exposition but once you get the answer to the above questions you can clearly interpret what had happened and how far the Black Goo had come and what precisely had been achieved when the break out occurred. 

I also think in knowing why the Engineers fell we will get an answer and a question. It will explain why they wanted to destroy us "because they could ... whilst we were where we were and did not pose a threat". The question is who decided it was a fall and what moral imperative can class them "falling" what are they bound to and what Covenant did they break that will be an unanswered question.

We will also I think begin to see W-Y take an interest in the Goo in a broader sense rather than the later acquisition of a weapon Burke was wrong, I think Bishop was on the right track there was so much more one could learn and hidden inside the archives of W-Y will be the pursuit of the greater prize which will unfold in the next movie. We have never seen W-Y with Engineer know how just a misplaced desire to harness our friends with the dentures issues.      

Michelle J: I understand what you mean but that is still a bad way to make the characters I believe. To call them chancers is no excuse for their bad behavior because the result is still dumb but I see your point. Some other should have gone through the script after Lindelof did it and changed a lot so they should have shot that script instead of the version that is now. As far as letting it start on Mars that would maybe have explained it a bit but I think that it would have been far from enough because the characters would still have been bad.

For me I got to think that a character is somewhat interesting in order to care for them in the movie. If they are assholes or at least not interesting then I don't care for the movie. There seems to be a need for at least three or four likable characters or else the movie is a waste to me (the same goes for Star Wars 7 honestly).

As far as a morality tale I see your point but in order for you to be able to get a point across there are things that need to work. Characters to me are number one or else I won't care about the point of the movie, the environments, and so on. Luckily there are some characters that were interesting in Prometheus or else I would have thrown it in the garbage can by now. To be honest I didn't care for Weyland either I just thought that he was an uninteresting narcissist and I didn't care when he died I was like “what ever, one dumb ass less”.

I don't want superhero characters either, they just don't need to come off as stupid. I haven't watched Person of Interest, it seems to be a TV show the way you describe it. There are very few times when I watch TV since most of it isn't very interesting anyways but maybe it is just me that is picky.

Nope, they need better characters in AC because to me most of them were failures in Prometheus. I don't want to totally bash your opinion but that is how I look at it.

 

@Thoughts_Dreams

Indeed Characters are important and Prometheus was a movie that did not give much back ground on most characters it could have been done better..... But they was trying to Tell a Story and a Big Plot and so they would not have been able to invest enough time in Character Development not with the limited running time.

Every movie has Characters who we are not meant to be to deeply invested in.... Aliens like wise... Alien worked because of the Small Cast....  with Aliens there really was 5 main characters Ripley, Hicks, Newt, Bishop and Burke.  And then suppporting Characters...  Gorman, Hudson, Vasquez and Apone and the rest of the Characters was just to fill in the gaps.

Prometheus the main Characters where... David, Shaw, Holloway, Weyland, Vickers and Janek.....  Supporting Characters were Fifield, Milburn, Ravel, Chance and maybe Ford... the rest did not matter.  (Engineers however was supporting roles.

And so i will agree that we did not get the same sense and connection to the main Characters as we did in Aliens... but the Supporting Characters from Prometheus and Aliens functioned the same.

So yes i think more could have been done, but the way the Plot was pushed maybe it would have been a tough act... especially with lower running time...

I think if the movie had extra 45 minutes then we could have had more invested into Characters... but then some fans would then also wander why the extra 45 minutes could not have been used to explore the Plot more with less ambiguity.

So Michelle's comments do kind of make the right point,  There was no real back ground to any Characters apart from Shaw, Holloway, Janek and to a degree Vickers.... and Weyland... maybe more would have added to Weyland.. but the Ted Talk was something that gave back ground...  But it was not a Scene from the movie... and the Weyland Site gave some back ground too.

But they should not have expected that everyone would have to watch the TED Talk Video and go to the Viral Site to get more back ground.

"Hopefully the characters will be a pleasant surprise as we move into the story"

I think so, and you made Perfect comments as far as needing to be attached to Characters and to be drawn into there plight....   Prometheus was a Ship that had its crew needed to function so thats Janek and the Pilots and the Mechanics...  Then we had the Science team of Shaw and Holloway who had a invested interest in the mission but so was Weyland.... Vickers was not interested in the mission i dont think she wanted to be there like the others.....  Fifield and Milburn they was both there for different reasons.... i got the feeling Milburn is not real expert with not much field experience and so he was simply thrilled to be a part of such a mission... Fifield was just in it for the money.

ALIEN COVENANT.... however could draw us in better, because this Ship and its crew are for the most Part Colonists they are Couples who are looking to be part of a expedition to go to a Very Earth like Paradise... to set up a new Home, a Fresh Start....  with similar excitement that maybe some of the Titanic's Passengers or those who few hundred years ago traveled from Europe to North America to start and take part in a whole new Life...

Most of the Crew i feel would be Couples, we may be drawn more into some than others but get the sense of these being like Newly Weds off on their Honeymoon..... believing they would turn up to a Whole New World.... that they can call their New Home without none of the Hassle and Problems of Earth.

A Fresh Start.....

And so we may really feel for them, no soon as they discover they have arrived at a living Hell and seeing their Partners killed off...  I have  a Strong Hunch they may use the unused Holloway and Watts (Shaw) Love Scene Chest Buster Scene from Spaights draft.   This would totally fit with this movie, and could be a Scene to rival the Chest Buster in Alien... or attempt to...

"there was a cut scene where Fifield and Milburn found a small alien that like a larvae which went fine and that is why they didn't get afraid about the space snake"

This is one of those number of scenes where it seemed like did they actually work out the Basic Plot Points and set out scenes to be coherent?

Indeed this Scene may have indeed helped to make Milburns Space Cobra Petting Scene make a bit more sense... but it was still a silly move.... Spaights idea made more sense... as it was Fifield who instigated it because he was high!

If they kept this scene in however, it would confuse the latter Scene of the Worms going into the Black Goo, as these Worms looked different and was smaller....  It would have raised the Question of do these worms naturally grow larger and maybe go through some kind of Metamorphosis just as the Chest Buster does to Adult Xeno.... the Worms that we saw go into the Black Goo looked different to those Larger more like Space Centipedes that they found earlier.  So this could distract from the whole Point of the way the Black Goo effects life. 

Maybe they are separate species?  But then we would ask what happened to those Centipedes and whats the point if they are not shown again?

So i think it was a scene that was well cut and did not need to be there....  some other scenes would have enhanced Characters but they was maybe cut due to pacing and run time restraints.

@BD

Your main character list of David/Shaw/Holloway/Vickers/Janek and Weyland I agree with. However I feel I got them all where I think Ridley made a mistake for a big movie was Vickers. The deleted scene between Janek and Vickers was superb and gave a real insight to Janek but the problem was it made the whole daughter with issues thing slow the third act down. Janek should have had all of his character exposition scenes with Shaw the Vickers character should have been a sub Weyland schemer who Janek physically man handles when he argues against the destruction of the trillion dollar prometheus who then runs off to save his skin."Vickers" was needed to get the life boat on LV223 for the denouement but the daughter with issues should have been left out and Weylands back ground strengthened (cf Ash and Mother verses Ripley) so the audience is in the know and we feel sorry for the manipulated Shaw just as we will feel sorry for the couples who are manipulated by W-Y and or David in A : C. and routed for Ripley and the survivors after the Ash revelation.

The unique quality of Prometheus to the franchise is you had the head of the corporation on board bringing the whole Ash/Ripley to a new level. They did not take that element and project it if they had the heroine (Shaw) the sacrificial Charlie would have meant more and when Shaw realised Weyland his stooges were running the ship this forced Janek to move from neutral to Hero.    

So Shaw/Charlie/Janek would have given us a very warm and connected feel. The death of Weyland his "Vickers" stooge the morality and of course David the really fascinating and ambivalent character would have remained unchanged.     

The manipulation of the mission and its real purpose should have been clear in the second act so we feel the jeopardy of Shaw and Holloway. Not only did David spike Holloway's drink but Weyland spiked the mission. I think Ridley sensed  this wasn't right hence the Ted Talk but that was not the prologue to the movie.  

Big Dave: I understand about the story but if you don't build up the characters then the plot doesn't become interesting because then (at least) I get annoyed by bad characters. Maybe they should have had the characters doing something before they met and Holloway introduced them to the mission? In that way we would have had a better connection with them and understood a bit more about them. This is something that I would have preferred.

Sure it might not be possible to keep a huge interest in every character but it also depends on how many there are. Prometheus had a small enough cast for people to get involved with the characters IMO, it could have worked but it didn't because they didn't take the necessary time to go through that that is what it seems to me at least.

As far as Aliens go yes there were those that were not the main focus but they worked. At least I can feel something for those that are not the main focus in Aliens but it wasn't there in Prometheus. I am not sure if this is because of very good story telling in Aliens or if it was really bad in Prometheus maybe it is somewhere in the middle.

Having the movie a bit longer would have been alright with me if that would have meant that the characters would have been better (that we would have understood their motivations better and so on). I agree that some people would probably have been wondering why the time wasn't spent on expanding the plot but that is probably dependent on what you prioritize. The characters are the most important thing to me but that might not mean that it is so with everyone.

I wish that they would have keep some of the Weyland speech in the movie. Sure you are right that they shouldn't have expected everyone to go to the site and read everything about it. Not all are that interested to know about it so they should have explained that in Prometheus. As far as myself goes I would never take the time to go to a page and read 10 pages of background information before I would go and see a movie, I expect that to be somewhat explained when I watch it. Because time is limited and everyone are not that interested or even bother to go to a web page to read everything about a movie before they watch it that was another bad thing that they made. I hope that they are smarter when it comes to AC.

I think that Fifield and Milburn were misplaced, they should have stayed on Earth.

Colonists would maybe be easier to relate to so yes I think that they are making a good decision there. I am looking forward to how they will make that look. Weren't there colonists in Aliens also? Your comment about Titanic is interesting and we know how that ended. The unused love scene could show up in Alien Covenant in one form or another. Hopefully we will see it, that could be something. Maybe they will never out-do the chest buster scene in Alien but maybe they can come close.

Sure, even if they would have kept the larvae in it would still have looked silly but at least it wouldn't have looked as stupid as it became. I am not surprised that Spaight's idea would have made more sense (LOL). Maybe they shouldn't have kept the space cobra scene there at all? It wouldn't have distracted me, at least it wouldn't have made me looking at F and M as being stupid. Some pages on the www have said that M and F were the Scooby and Shaggy of the movie, which isn't a very nice way to put it but I understand that they think that they acted dumb. This problem could have been avoided by giving them more background and explain better why they did the way they did.

Maybe they should have cut the scene with the larvae going into the goo? I didn't think that was very interesting but at least they could have cut it so M and F's toying with the space snake wouldn't look as dumb since many seems to have problems with that scene.

As far as pacing: Sometimes I get the impression that they were more concerned about that then to tell a story that made sense. This was a shame since the movie could have been really good.

 

 

 

Indeed  all very valid comments.

When i separated who i saw as main Characters and Secondary i think really they did not do as good a job with the main Characters.....   it did not matter about secondary ones and even Milburn and Fifield fitted into these. 

David, Shaw, Vickers, Weyland and Janek where the main ones who needed more depth not all of these had that, some deleted scenes did add a bit more to them..

And you are correct the Weyland Sites did add more back ground to the movie, but not everyone is going to look into these things to help understand of make a connection to the Mission and Characters.

The movie caused problems for you as it did with many others in that its simply to much to expect people to have to watch the viral sites and dig deeper by watching the movie over and over to try and make sense of the clues.

it certainly gave those who invested in that time something to debate about on places like here... but for the larger % of people who saw Prometheus there was not enough invested in the Characters or Clues.

I think maybe they have learned from this with Alien Covenant.