Regeneration in Alien: Covenant

@BigDave - "But as you are trying to say regarding the key to immortality... we don't get masses of proof for this"

True, there's not really a lot of evidence for that in the films. But if we consider how the DNA allows the hybrid Ripley clone to quickly heal herself as evidence, then we might be able to build a case for Alien DNA being responsible for regeneration. I think it all depends on if Ridley and the makers of Alien 5 will still consider anything in Resurrection canon after all is said and done, or if they'll bypass it/retcon it completely.  The ex W-Y scientists in the film hint that there may be medical benefits.

It would make the Alien much more valuable to the company if it secretly holds the key to Immortality, as well as being able to be used as a bioweapon.  It makes it more worth the risk.

The Nostromo crew members only find evidence of its sudden change in size, they never actually witness how the thing grows from the nymph stage to the adult stage so quickly.  If the W-Y files are any indication, the Company itself may still be looking into the biochemical processes at work in the future.  The Weyland-Yutani Files suggest that it has a lot to do with specific biochemical processes.  The files talk about how the creature finds an isolated place to hide, foams at the mouth, covers itself in a strange substance, then rapidly sheds and replaces its skin while it undergoes its growth spurt.

I think what happens is the DNA is broken down by Black Goo & remains dormant until the Prometheus crew changes the environmental conditions in the room and triggers the Urns. We know that the Urns have the Alien DNA in them, since the effect of the mutagen can be seen on the Hammerpede.

Was Fifield alive or dead when he attacked the crew?  I thought he was already dead the first time I watched the film.  My initial impression was that the mutagen somehow reanimated his corpse.  Is Fifield actually a reanimated corpse? Was he tricked back to life by the mutagen after the hammerpede killed him? Maybe the cloning process is more natural than we know. 

Miss Shaw was exchanging bodily fluids with Holloway and found herself contaminated.  The cross she wears around her neck was fine; David suspected that the cross wasn't contaminated by that point in the story, he just wanted to mess with her.  He knows that if you drop the contagion into the planetary water supply, bad things will happen.  David tries to hint to Dr. Shaw that the Alien contagion was never in the air, because it's actually transmitted via fluids/chemical substrates.  If David dumps one of the weaponized urns he's carrying into the Engineer home planet's water supply, then it's basically Game Over for the planet's entire biosphere.  The urns on his Juggernaut are stored properly and haven't been triggered by a sudden change in air quality/temperature.  

I'm tempted to simplify things a little bit and start referring to the Green Goo as a type of "Jelly," but I'm not sure if the filmmakers are willing to commit to that direction yet.  If we consider the possible origins of the two types of Goo we've been exposed to, and how the Sacrificial Black Goo may mostly break genetics down, then it's possible the Goo is related to the Alien. It's important to note that this is only one potential direction: the potential benefit of connecting many of the data points in such a way could be found to outweigh the risks by those who make executive decisions.  If the updated Alien life-cycle is to be a focus of this next film, then we might start dealing with the Green Stuff a little sooner than initially planned... They might be skipping parts of the "Shaw, David, and the Black Goo" story to get straight to the story of Daniels and the Green Goo, since a pure sample of the green stuff may secretly be worth more...

Daniels being part of Weyland-Corp security is something that I hope survived multiple rewrites and possible changes in direction.  I'm unsure what her character's going to be like. She might not really be the security officer character than I'm thinking of...  There's a chance I'm jumping too far ahead in the timeline, because some of the corporate culture concepts might be saved for the movie that comes after Covenant; although, there's a fairly good chance that we'll hear about stuff like contract negotiations and "renegotiations." 

I have greatly enjoyed Big Dave, Caryn and Michelle's input too. I'm following this thread and their magnificent input!

Prometheus and Ridley will be vindicated.....eventually. I know that in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, except perhaps to a few of us. But I look forward to the day, when just as with Kubricks 2001, and Ridleys very own BladeRunner, Prometheus finally takes its well deserved, and rightful place, within the annals of Science-Fiction greats.

Prometheus equates with studying Bosch's The Garden of Earthly Delights triptych. A work filled with hybridized creatures, birds and musical instruments, it begins with Creation, takes us through-the-looking-glass, descending a hellish rabbit-hole, to Damnation and Purgatory. 

Both were created by virtuoso imagineers, other-worldly master builders. As many of you appreciate, for anyone who cares to look below the surface of Prometheus, there is much to be gained. I am still studying it, and it bears many fruits!

Also, there is little agreement as to that Boschian nightmares specific meaning, but it too seems to beg the question, would a God destroy all of his creation in the face of human frailty?

 

  

 

"True, there's not really a lot of evidence for that in the films. But if we consider how the DNA allows the hybrid Ripley clone to quickly heal herself as evidence"

"it would make the Alien much more valuable to the company if it secretly holds the key to Immortality, as well as being able to be used as a bioweapon.  It makes it more worth the risk."

Indeed this is exactly what my comment regarding your early post was about,  i overlooked a bit of the hints with Alien Resurrection and at the very least Xenomorph DNA does seem to show some level of being able to repair damaged cells.

And as i said this is something i think could be explored as it would give more valid reasons for the pursuit of the Xenomorph Biology.

Goran D. Kleut is a very think and quite tall actor and he did play a Pau'an in Star Wars EP3

He has a very distinctive look, and i doubt he is part of the Covenant crew which for me leaves it open for him to play a Frail Engineer or related species or maybe even a guy in the Xenomorph suit...  but he does not seem to come across as someone as athletic as they required...  But that does not mean they cant be cast for close up shots.

I think the cast list can give us some clues.... 

The source said that the planned Prometheus 2 had a much larger cast than Prometheus.. but they also said that Nathan Jones and Conan Stevens was being considered to play Engineers.

Question is will we actually see any Human + Engineer interactions within this movie?  Which would require 7ft large built actors?

@Caryn 

Your conjecture about David, Shaw and the Black Goo and moving on to Daniels and the Green Jelly is the kind of manoeuvre that solves Ridley's riddle. The monster in a tin can is spent, he said that as recently as February long after Covenant was locked so how do you solve the lemmings problem raised by A 5 and do something interesting. You deconstruct the mythos and use the A L I E N as an idee fixe a motif by which you tell a much bigger story. Clearly having studied the black box recording of Prometheus Weyland and Yutani have decided to bury their differences come together and go after the "knowledge".

There are a lot of Covenants at stake W-Y, David/Shaw and the one which they are going to exploit the consequences of the Engineers breaking theirs with the hierarchy. Whilst all this tension and discovery is going down we have the victims of the David's new found knowledge his reaction and Daniels.

I am now seeing the final part of the trilogy and possibly the "Space Jockey" is the end game sacrifice as the protagonist fight over this huge prize which ain't the Alien but the technology that created it. None of you are going to have it ….until the next time. Thats much more interesting than more gnashing teeth though as John Logan said they are all comfortable with using it to tell the big story which together with Damon "I am not good at exposition" Lindelof sitting out the next stage should make for a second LP (that dates me) where the band are into what there into as they say.            

@Aorta - "All the other characters had last names. He said in an interview that he was a plot device. Was he being clever, does he mean he's a device?"

It's possible that Rigby was being clever.  Some of the things that Ridley says in interviews hold double meanings...

When Ridley said that there was "Alien DNA" in Prometheus, he may meant it both literally and symbolically.  If Ridley, or some of the concept artists, coached the actors to respond in certain ways, then it becomes more probable; although, he could simply be telling the truth.  If so, then he's just a plot device.  Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. 

David sometimes uses wordplay/double meanings to allow himself to tell a lie, like when he said he didn't know Shaw "had it in her."  He was actually referring to Shaw's survival skills, as well as the alien embryo that was growing inside her.  One interpretation/meaning is true, while the other is the lie.  If we deconstruct some of David's statements and try to figure out his intentions, it can possibly help sovle the riddles.

David's advanced linguistic and emotional programming allows it to use ambiguous language to conceal its true intent and the "pseudo feelings" behind the double meanings.  It can mimic sarcasm, as it understands when humans are being disingenous or insincere thanks to advanced visual polygraphic sensors that monitor their microexpressions.  Yutani's Quiet Eye tech would be better at detecting lies & monitoring levels of guile/deception/dishonesty than the sensors in the old David from the Prometheus mission.

The new David might have the updated Quiet Eye program installed, which could allow him to sense when members of the Covenant crew are telling the truth to him.  If Daniels lies to it, or starts to think about breaking her non-disclosure agreement and betraying the secret agenda, it'll know.

When toddlers begin to lie at around age 2, they're said to be fully self-aware by developmental psychologists.  David was becoming a "real boy" (and less like Pinocchio) when he started learning how to lie (at approx. age 2).  This eventually leads to him being able to use his words and sentential logic loops to completely free himself from his programming by exploiting loopholes.  A.I. often tries to be as honest as possible when dealing with humans.  If Rigby is a synthetic, he could be trying to say it without breaching his contract.

@Lone - We'll probably still deal with the Paradise Lost ideas in the sequel, so the whole concept of Purgatory that you bring up could become very important in Covenant.

Purgatory is a state between Life and Death, heaven and Hell etc.  Being in a state of preservation, stasis, or a very deep form of sleep is much like being in purgatory.

It might be safer for the filmmakers to call the movie Covenant and save some of the early Paradise concepts for a third film. 

As for why some of the Engineers wish to destroy us, I can only really guess at this point.  I have a few thoughts about the existence of separate factions of Engineers, but there's not enough data to form a solid hypothesis yet.  One group might have thought humanity's cultures were starting to develop too quickly after the neolithic age ended.  The relatively sudden arrival of fully developed city-states in the Fertile Crescent, Indus Valley, and China causes some members of the Engineer hierarchy to panic that the human cultures were advancing a little too rapidly and might catch up to them...

After human civilization develops, the neolithic farmers cease most of their interactions with Engineers and stop worshipping them as God-Kings.  Oral traditions about our interactions with the Engineers during prehistory make their way into the myths and written accounts of many cultures after the syllable is developed.  An ancient version of the telephone game happens, and the details in the stories begin to change over time; however, cross-comparative analysis of mankind's myths (done by MU/TH/UR) shows that they are indeed related in a number of ways.  The stories and myths start being recorded once the written Word is fully formed.  Every road leads to Rome at some point, because the Holy Roman Empire appropriates the early Greek/Phoenecian/Hebrew alphabet, along with many ideas from the middle-East, Far East, and Africa (while interacting with many cultures).  The Greek account retells the stories, bringing the big picture back into focus, while the Greek mystery cults/schools took ideas from the Far East and incorporated them into the dramatic works.

@Michelle  - You've done an excellent job of explaining how Prometheus relates to the "bigger picture."  That's almost exactly the way I look at it, as part of a bigger puzzle/data matrix.  I feel that Prometheus functions as more of a 'Prologue,' or a "small beginning,” than a true prequel to the Alien series:  it’s sort of a parallel story, only somewhat connected to the big picture that starts to unfold in Covenant.

I think the sequel that they were initially planning started becoming a true prequel to Alien sometime after Prometheus became more of a standalone story.  So now Alien: Covenant leads directly into the ALIEN storyline in a few different ways.  The title may have actually been changed to better reflect the thematic elements that appear in the story.  Greed and things like bonus shares begin to factor into things a little more.  

“Gods don’t build in straight lines,” so the parallel storylines get twisted together (much like the double-helix strand of DNA), while Ridley explores the Alien's origin and looks at how and why the Alien was created.  Engineers and Aliens are each connected to the "big questions" we still need answered.

If we deconstruct some of David and Ridley's statements, it can potentially help sovle some of the mysteries/riddles, which might make Prometheus more of a Prologue.  Instead of the Deacon's evolutionary line leading directly to the classic Alien, I think it leads to a new evolutionary line of the Alien DNA. 

The mythological Prometheus is somewhat related to the concept of foresight, so some of what we see in Prometheus could simply be foreshadowing of what is to come.     

Yutani's Quiet Eye tech detected unusual levels of dishonesty in Shaw's very first tranmissions to Weyland Corp.  Yutani warned Mr. Weyland to be careful, because Miss Shaw might be a spy for a separate faction of religious fanatics known as The Order. The old man became superstitious at the end of his life and wanted a "true believer" onboard.  There's a chance Miss Shaw no longer works for the Company if it turns out that Shaw is a spy/traitor who ultimately gave up the location of the Engineer home planet to a group she's secretly working with.  Miss Shaw sends encrypted signals to the group she's secretly working with while telling the Company/rest of humanity not to come looking for her.  Yutani Corp was the first to pick up on the subtle encrypted signals that she's been sending to the Order's ships/space stations.  The Order is the only group out there who has FTL vessels that can keep up with Weyland-Yutani and the Colonial Marines.  Most of the other groups don't pose much of a threat to the Company's dominance out in the colonies.  Gov't still exists back on Earth, but the Marines know who is really in charge out in space.  If Marines haven't figured out by now that W-Y doesn't care about Colonial Administration's rules and protocols, they soon will.

@BigDave - By referring to McBride's character as a Captain, I was mainly referring to it in a Captain Ahab way.  Ideas about the chain of command may come into play a lot in this film.  

During his recent appearance on Conan, McBride hinted that his character sticks around much longer than others.  He said something along the lines of being one of the only characters left during the end of filming.  This leads me to believe that his character has been given a little more to do and has a bigger role than others.  The actor's been a huge fan of the series for years and would likely return if asked, so his character may even be a survivor who appears within the next film...

Ridley likes to reference naval stories in his works and changed the name of the ship to the Nostromo in Alien.  The ship's Captain usually only flies the ship and doesn't ask too many questions.  As a Pilot, McBride may eventually try to take charge, and could be the one to try to pull rank on the remaining survivors while continuing to pursue the Alien.

McBride's character is one of the only people left who can actually pilot a ship towards the end of the story, so he's as good of a Captain as anyone.  After Daniels starts sabotaging the secret agenda and blowing things up, he may need to find another way off the planet.  I don't think he's one of the couples.  If anything, the new David is Daniels' partner and sticks with her throughout much of the story.  McBride's character wouldn't really have any attachments to any of the other crewmembers, and neither does Daniels.

The other main characters are a very tight-knit group, because the couples know each other from previous jobs.  What's new for these lovebirds is that the couples are expecting to populate the new colony with their children; Rebecca Jorden aka Newt was the first child born at the Hadley's Hope colony.  The majority of the crewmembers we meet are colonists who are unaware of the hidden agenda.  Marines sometimes refer to these types of colonists as "dumbass colonists," because some of them are selected for their reproductive potential, rather than for their intelligence.  The company hopes that their parter's genetics will balance things out, but the average employee IQ drops sharply between the time of Alien and Aliens, and some of the colonists aboard the Covenant aren't the brightest individuals; they score poorly in intelligence.

The "official story" about the search for distant planets to colonize would simply be a cover for the secret agenda.  The Company already knows where it's going, but most of the crewmembers are blissfully unaware.  There might be some actors in the background doing menial tasks that we never really meet who simply become Alien fodder.  The crew is a little bigger than the Prometheus, but there are also more redshirts doing stuff in the background.  This allows a small team to go about the secret agenda covertly during the early stages of colony construction.  The characters that we spend a little more time with would hold a higher rank and position than those other types of people...

There are still forms of government in existence, hence the need to keep things quiet, but most people know that the Company is really in charge.  Colonial Administration and the Gov't back on Earth mandates that certain individuals be present and stationed at each new colony, so at least one person is there to oversee things.  This creates a need for secrecy and covert measures. The Company doesn't want Colonial Administration to find out what's really going on here.  Most of the Engineer data + what happens on the planet is classifed.  The events are never officially documented.

Daniels isn't really the one who’s “officially” in charge in the beginning, but the Company authorizes her to override the chain of command if she needs to.  From her perspective, she's the only one calling the shots.  However, when the Company issues the Special Order, she decides to ignore it and overrides the plans of all of her “superiors.”  The new David is set on following the Special Order when it comes in, and won’t rebel against his orders, while Daniels begins making her own executive decisions.  At a certain point, she decides that the potential bioweapons are far too dangerous for the company to mess with.  The risk outweighs any potential benefit in her opinion.  It no longer matters whether or not they’re the key to the immortality, the bioweapon aspect is too volatile to be secured.  She advises that her superiors cut their losses and give up on acquiring the immortality.

The humans, androids, and the Engineers at the top of the hierarchy become furious after her assessment that the Alien is impossible for any group to control.  The David from the Prometheus mission disagrees, while he purposely tries to bond with one of the creatures.  The old David has already spoken with the beings further up in the hierarchy by the time we meet him, so he’s already made a deal with those who are above the Engineers and has certain promises to keep. 

The Company must go through the motions of an ordinary colony construction job and lay the foundations for the new colony to secure their claim to any Engineer tech on the planet.  As long as they establish a presence, anything found on the planet belong to them and they can return later.

There are other factions of humans that populate the Universe, so the Company must keep the Engineer technology to themselves for now.  W-Y does not wish to alert the Marines, Earth Government(s), or Colonial Administration about the Engineers at this time.  They request that any employees who know keep it a secret.  They don't want the other humans to worry about these "Engineers."  Technically, that's Shaw's word for them.  W-Y has other names for them.

@Caryn

I to see Prometheus as a wide screen prologue, the generation of a mythos, out of which a much better understanding of several streams appear. Weyland, the Engineers/Space Jockey and the Xeno life cycle are no random features of a movie into which the Magnificent Seven come they have their own reality and add to the meaning of what the Nostromo came into.

The ultimate avaricious company came into being through the man at the Ted Talk and makes sense of its single minded pursuit at any cost of advanced technology.

The Jockey as a narrative remains elusive but its races role is clear and its in trouble pushing the boundaries of its part in the plan. How precisely that Jockey ended up in trouble, landing and setting of a warning beacon may not be revealed but we will, if we are all spared, know why.

As for the A L I E N and its "forerunner" the Deacon we know in order to create first you must destroy but this related to the black Goo which had been mutagenised and was en-route to earth. Why was the specific Bio Mechanoid lifecycle created out of the potential of the Goo, which in Ridley's Alien world operates in a particular way with human kind, humiliating degrading (literally with the morph) and generating unspeakable punishment on its victims. In a sense the A L I E N we have met to date is not about creating a new reality it is about punishment.

Its origins lie in the Engineers and their fall and punishment and it would appear that someone has come to understand how to harness that for their own desires, like the Engineers he wants to use it to break his bonds to reorder things.

The hierarchy intervened/allowed the mutagenised black goo to destroy the Engineers (whether or not David is a tool on Paradise). Mankind has had its warning in the prologue with the changing fresco the leaking Urns and the storm. So Weyland Yutani will now try again but Paradise is not LV223 with its booby trapped tombs it is alive with an exceptionally dangerous David who has been humiliated by both Mankind (boy, not a real boy)and the Engineers (who sneered at this sub creation and used him to kill his creator).       

 A "synthetic' with issues !

    

@Michelle

I think the Plot behind the Engineers and Xenomorph is a evolving one, i am not sure if they ever had a explanation set in stone as a lot of things keep changing.....  as the years go by but i hope they have the broad stokes... which i think Ridley and Lindeloff had discussed at the time Prometheus was being released... and certainly they must have had some idea by the time they collaborated with Dark Horse for the Comics and also with Blomkamp as far as Alien 5

But we really cant be sure if they are still changing their minds.

Prior to Prometheus.....

Ridley all ready knew roughly what happened to the Space Jockey and even as of when Prometheus had been made he had added a bit to the Story i am going to ignore the Original ideas and Evolution from Star Beast to the Release of Alien and deal with the Aftermath of Alien.

At this time and after Ridley confirmed a few things...

1) The Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon used by the Space Jockey

2) The Derelict was a Bio-Weapon Cargo Ship/Bomber of Sorts

3) The Space Jockey had got infected by his own out of Control Cargo

4) The Space Jockey knowing what was to come next, set a course to Quarantine the Cargo on a Baron Moon, where he would also set up a Warning Beacon to Warn his fellow Race the Cargo had become Compremised

5) The Space Jockey, Derelict had been on LV-426 for maybe Thousands of years

After Prometheus Ridley Expanded upon this...

6) The Space Jockey had left a undisclosed location with his Cargo to go to another undisclosed location but he did not get far.... (possible hint that the SJ had left LV-223).

7) The Derelict did not crash as such but it was more a intended landing that went wrong (possibility of Chest Buster during the Final Moments).

8) The Derelict and Juggernaughts and Space Jockey and Engineers are related they are Brothers.

9) There are links to LV-223 experiments and the eventual Bio-Weapon.

10) The Space Jockey/Derelict incident had occurred within a few hundred years of the Outbreak that killed off nearly all the Engineers (this gives us a date between 1800-2200 years ago).

One of Ridleys last statements was this...

11) The Space Jockey's Cargo had Evolved and it got loose and got to the Space Jockey (hints that maybe Eggs had evolved or something evolved that led to the Eggs?)

Prometheus was aimed at setting up clues.... Lindeloff hinted the movie answered the questions and he even hinted at the Worms playing a bigger role.... and even hinted that the Deacon was the Progenitor...  But with Lindeloff none of his stuff is coherent and so how can the Worms and Deacon both serve as ancestral linage to the Xenomorph and how can the events of Prometheus link to the Coincidence of the 2000 year old Outbreak and how Ridley had said the Derelict had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years?

Spaights Alien Engineers....

Was trying to set up a more direct Prequel... it was set on LV-426 but it did not have to be the exact event that led to Alien... their was a number of inconsistent things...

a) The event if the Chest Busted Engineer was the Space Jockey does not back up the look and then confirmation that the Derelict had been on LV-426 for a long long time.

b) The outpost and location of the crashed Derelict/Juggernaught in connection to crashed Human ship is inconsistent to where the Derelict landed unless some Volcanic Activity had buried evidence of the Engineer Outposts and wreckage of the Human Ship etc.

c) The Beacon was not set off from the Derelict/Jugernaught  but from Pyramids on the Moon.

So these would contradict Alien a lot.... and could be a Red Herring....

Regardless Alien Engineers is not Canon....

The Source however if they are true in what they said had gave some clues...

They hinted at the Xenomorph being a unintentional result, a result of Punishment sent down on some rebellious beings/faction and a punishment that freed the Engineers from bondage. (referenced Paradise Lost Fallen Angels becoming Serpents).

Without Sin as in context of Paradise Lost there would be no Xenomorph (Sin as in Satans Daughter or Sin as in the reasons that led to Punishment).

That the Deacon had a lot of evolving to become a Xenomorph.  But the connection is there.

LV-223 is very connected and not by coincidence of the location and the outbreak.

That David 8 (well all anyone has to do) to RE-CREATE the Xenomorph is possess the knowledge and Tools of how the Organism WAS Created and that David 8 possess both of these.

But again i can not Guarantee the source is legitimate at all.

So here is what we are likely led to (well what i have interpreted)

Some kind of War/Rebellion do to within the Hiearchy of the Engineers, this led to a Punishment that eventually led to something being created that led to the Engineers on LV-223 being free from maybe serving a higher power.

Various Experiments had been conducted on LV-223, its likely the Engineer may have proceeded to try and use this creation for some purpose... and something went wrong.. the reasons why is unknown.

Either the Derelict Event, has something to do with the Outbreak.  Or maybe after the Outbreak the Space Jockey had also gone into Cryo-sleep for Safety like the Last Engineer.

Only when he awoke up earlier he then went to resume his mission but unknown to him his Cargo had Evolved and it infected him.

The Last Engineer was not infected... but his other crew was.

The Space Jockey then set a course to Quarantine the Cargo on LV-426 and set off a Warning, but he was getting Chest Busted on his Final Approach

 

@BD

As we move ever closer to Covenant I am more interested in looking at how the specific narrative might evolve built on the concepts that have been laid down by Prometheus or as Carlyn has called it a prologue. Ridley was very clever introducing Lindelof he gave the story its much broader mythology though Jon had some good ideas. However he was equally clever in letting going of him because the world Prometheus has created now needs a firm and clearly defined narrative. Green and Paglen would have carried the existisitential nature of the story further, with the Alien prefix, the life cycle and John Logan they have decided to harden the mythos into a strong relatable story set inside the world that Spaights created and Lindelof expanded.

We can look in the rear view mirror at the curious and multifaceted way the journey has been made with several sat navs going off contradicting themselves but I am only looking into the rear view mirror for signs of where to go next. I know all the contradictions but the next two movies are about answering those questions which are really relevant to the bigger story.Those answers may contradict earlier suppositions even versions in tie in materials but for me the curiosity is in looking at all the materials at our disposal and playing them through into the next stage selecting those which seem most probable. I know the Engineers have suffered a disaster out of which punishment emerges precisely at whose hands I am not entirely sure of nor, do I know precisely where the Space Jockey fits in to the decided upon narrative I have looked at all the variables but I know the Jockey and the cargo are part of the same story and its another consequence of their fall.           

Put simply like Caryn I am very clear on the thematic elements of the evolving story and I have some confidence in whose doing what in Covenant how the precise narrative plays out how they finish is what I aim to find out next August but I am not being hijacked or distracted by every minute evolution of the casting of the big themes that has gone on since 1979.  

Big Dave:

 

I never understood the things about the worms, they turned into Hammerpedes right? I never understood why they had those except for the acid for blood thing so adding them was a bad thing. They could have had something else instead of the worms that would have made more sense. As far as the Deacon goes it isn't as confusing since it reminds me more of the Xeno and I sort of understand of how it was made (Shaw – Squid – Engineer – Deacon).

 

Stories should be somewhat consistent which Lindelof doesn't seem to be capable of doing. Some mystery is OK but his writing seems to go too far. He says that the movie answered these questions but if you must dissect the movie 1000 times to get the answer then to me the movie is badly written even though I understand what he is saying. I don't say that Prometheus is rotten or the worst movie that I have watched but I say that it could have been so much better (better in this case means clearer, and also better characters).

 

They should have had more of the Spaight's script although maybe not all of it. At least things in his script made more sense even though it wasn't perfect. You mention that there are contradictions in his script (which I have read) so they could have been polished but at least it wasn't as confusing as the version that Lindelof wrote.

 

As far as the Xeno being a result even though it wasn't their intention could be true as it could explain why the engineers are extinct. They made a weapon that was too perfect and they died because of it.

 

Didn't Janek said that they wouldn't make weapons of mass destruction at their door step? So they got LV-223 as a place to test their weapons and as Janek said it turned on them.

 

It will be interesting to see what AC will give us and I hope that it is more coherent than Prometheus was and better thought out.

 

 

Michelle: Some of what Lindelof did was alright, I like that he added more mystery to it but he went too far. Too much mystery in a way that isn't constructed as far as the story goes just makes it confusing.

I don't know too much bout Spaights or Lindelof but at least Spaights way of writing isn't as confusing which is a good thing. If I must choose between Spaights or Lindelof I would choose Spaight's way of writing since it doesn't seem to be as confusing. Coherent stories are better than confusing ones even though I like a bit of a mystery. There got to be a way to make it not overtly clear but not extremely confusing either.

 

Maybe some scenes that were made wasn't as confusing when it was based on the script by Lindelof but that the way that they cut it made it worse. I don't think that everything that went bad was Lindelof's fault but I bet that Scott and Fox are also heavily involved in the underwhelming result that we got. Hopefully they will not make a complete U-turn and make AC totally obvious as a story but that they have less contradictions, less confusing things, and better characters. No petting space cobras, and no removing helmets, for example. When I see these two things I still wonder “what are these idiots doing?” If they would have similar scenes they should at least explain these actions with dialogue something that some of the cut scenes explained. Don't cut things that explain important things in the movie that will just look dumb if you don't explain them. This doesn't mean that you got to lower yourself to how you explain things to a three year old but you see my point.

 

It could be interesting to know about some of the experiments that the Engineers did at LV-223.

 

@Thoughts_Dreams...

The Worms have been covered before and i dont want to go off topic and in to detail... the simple way to look at it is this.

Urns ==> Biological Evolutionary Accelerant 

They contain some DNA/Traits related to the Xenomorph and the Goo passes these onto what ever Genetic Material they come into contact with...  The Goo also evolves a Organisms most best/suitable traits.

Black Goo ===> Infects Organisms DNA

It attacks and changes a Organisms DNA,  breaking it down and replacing it with Xeno DNA/Traits, however the Goo will also look at the Native DNA and see if their is any traits that will prove a advantage over the Xeno DNA and these traits are evolved.

The Result is the Worms become a Hybrid of Worm/Xeno DNA as a result they gain a few traits similar to a Face Huger.

In regards to Michelle

Yes i think they need to try and get a WORKING STORY that can tie in Alien, Prometheus and the Franchise....

The bottom line is regardless of what Alien is based off, regardless of Ridleys comments regardless of EVERYTHING...   The only thing that really matters is what is Shown in the Movie Franchise...

The movies are the definitive Canon... and its what changes was made to them for the Theatrical Cuts that are Canon.

And so yes everything else does not have to matter or apply, its only what they show that applies and so far as far as Canon a lot of stuff was proposed and acted as the PLOT and back ground but have been dropped and we may simply have to accept these things do not EXIST

Unless and Until future movies Theatrical Cuts link to these or include them.

Things that where Shot and meant to be included that have been dropped include.

*The Egg Morph Scene....

*The Elder Engineers....

*Scenes that show the Engineers to not just be Biological Terminators...

some scenes had to be cut for pacing and because they never ended up being the way they had ideally wanted them to look.

The Egg Morph was one of these, this does not mean they cant show us this is canon.. but until any future movies show us this then we can not ultimately add it as a way the Organism Procreates.  Despite it being the backbone idea behind the whole concept of the Alien.

The Elder Engineers they was not impressed with how frail and feeble they looked and so we have to accept that we have not seen any Elder Engineers,  future movies could introduce them as looking totally different or maybe even not looking old and frail at all.

My point being that i agree Michelle they have to get back to a working Narrative and make something Solid that can tie it all in together.

A few things the Franchise has never shown us is.... EXACTLY

When/How and Why the Xenomorph was created... there was clues but they was vague and they can change their minds as to how these clues should be taken.... and so far there is Nothing 100% Set in Stone to explain the following... not as far as shown on screen (ignoring Ridleys comments or anyone elses).

What year the Xenomorph was created.

How long the Space Jockey had been on LV-426

If the events of the Space Jockey had occurred prior or after Prometheus.

What role the Engineers had in terms of the Xenomorph.

Alien Covenant could be a movie that U-Turns on some things and it could show us the movies events connect to Alien, its got many people wandering if the events of David and the Covenant Crew lead directly to Alien and the Space Jockey.

I hope not... and we have two more movies after to connect to that and i think with a period of under 20 years from the events post Alien Covenant and Alien... does such a space of time and two movies really need to address two decades of history Three if we include Prometheus to get from Engineers Biological Soup to Alien...   without giving us reasons as to why the company seemed to not know too much in Alien.

What ever route they take.... i hope they can give us a story that ties in and links most of the things lacking connection.

We need it to not be or to leave any ambiguity.... so as that the Story they tell from Alien Covenant to Alien connects and does not leave many of us needing to Question things and argue points that simply dont add up.

Prometheus left a lot of such things.... i think the story was ambiguous but the cutting also affected it and it appears the Final Cut was trying to point us down a route that maybe was different a bit to the shooting script was.

Spaights writing was less ambiguous, it laid down things in a manner that most people would not need to question it was done in pretty much a similar fashion to how we got ALIENS

It was easy to draw the lines between the dots....

Prometheus was easier to understand if you read Spaights draft and remember its a evolution of his draft and still use the less ambiguous ideas in his draft as a reference to understanding Prometheus.

It appeared they had some big ideas for the Franchise, but it would maybe be a bit too deep a Plot with so much going on that would distract viewers....

And i think the KEY thing was most people thought Prometheus would be a Prequel that would answer a FEW Things.

Why the Space Jockey had the cargo, what connection with the cargo and when/why was the Xeno created.

And sadly Fox seem to think the only thing that matters is the Xenomorph.... rather than the expanded Mythos Prometheus was trying to address....  i am concerned they was going to tone this down and just simplify things...

Which i guess is what they had to do from the Start.... but once they have opened the Can of Worms that expanded on the Space Jockey/Engineer History and Agenda in relation to our creation and then the creation of the Xenomorph to deal with us....  I think its hard to explore one part of this and ignore the other...

A even more worry is how they may feel Ripley has to be as important part...... i dont want Ripley links.... not if we dont get any explanation to the Engineers connections to the Prometheus Mythos and Paradise Lost.

@BD

Ridley has developed a vision a multi layered story of revelation. Let us hope he has the opportunity to film it and remains in good health.   

The reason we have gone back to the Zeno morph rather than move off at a a tangent is because Ridley has recognised that is  were the centre of the story lies however grand. There are a number of reasons he has come to that conclusion but he also recognises that the story must be grounded in strong inclusive characterisation the Martian being in his mind as Prometheus 2 went Alien PL > C.

As John Logan said everyone was uneasy about how to include the Zenomorph in Prom but they are now at peace with the beast but as Michael Fassbender has indicated they have blended the sensibilities of A L I E N with the big ideas of P R OM E T H E U S.   

I am certain we will find out all we need to know about the Engineers as regards the Black Goo how they fell and the emergence of the evolving creature. The key though this is a story now about A L I E N zero and not A L I E N universe.

Shaws in, Davids in, the evolving creature is in, Paradise and what happened is in, and Weyland Yutani have sent out  a curious mixture of the knowing and unknowing who all get to wake up next August seems like a plan.  

I have to say though discussing Prometheus and what it means has been hugely enjoyable and I really have enjoyed not being spoon fed. We are archaeologists we know something happened  and it went wrong but we haven't found out yet the precise story we many never, just like the linked technology across earth has not received a satisfactory answer. Art imitating Life. 

I agree Michelle

I think the interest in Alien 5 compared to the not so much interest in Shaw and David meeting these Giant white Bald Humanoids wanting to know why they created us and then wanted to destroy us.... while stepping away from Alien and the Xenomorph....

It seemed Fox started to see where fans wanted to go, and however bold the story behind the Engineers as yes the XENOMORPH  and Why, How and When may be something they gave clues which they hoped was enough... but sadly for the fans it was not and the Purpose of doing a Prequel was to find out the Space Jockey Race, its connection with the Cargo on LV-426 and the How, When and Why.

I think while the Xenomorph may just be one part of the bigger Engineer and their creators Agenda and History much like maybe that Gunpowder and its impact on Warfare for Mankind is just one small part of Humans History.

The Xenomorph objective was the reason for doing the prequels... they may have changed their minds and felt the Xenomorph could be navigated away and expand on the Engineers, but now seems after Prometheus did not do the trick they had hoped for they are now going back to expanding on the Xenomorph.

To be fair it may be the best way to go, because its all about $$$$$ and Fox cant risk a movie that covers the Xenomorph and why with less answers and more ambiguity while exploring the Space Jockey Engineers if they felt that the Xenomorph was the bigger draw and fans wanted the explanations.

With Alien 5 potentially also stepping on the connections toes, it makes sense for a Prometheus sequel to cover these things sooner rather than latter.  And then allow Alien 5 to touch up on what ever it wanted without touching upon or contradicting or giving away anything that the Prometheus Trilogy would eventually want to cover...

Hopefully this movie is one that would give some connections to the Xenomorph and Alien and tie into Prometheus as far as the Black Goo.... but keep some things back....

So it would give fans more of a Alien connection, that after they see Alien 5 may make more connections and then (as Alien 5 may touch upon different Xeno strands and Engineer Technology) it may bring those non-Prometheus fans to ask...

Who are these Engineers and Puppet masters behind all of this...  having had more of a satisfying fix of the Xeno clues.

They may be left wanting to know about those who was behind in more detail and what else they do....

As opposed to skip Xeno clues and go more into the Engineers and have fans not buy into it.... and be disappointed and not interested.

I do think the scope they had was HUGE, but maybe its a too bold a Plot and it needs to be made more simple...

When i was working on a Prometheus 2 draft, the Engineers Agenda, History etc and how it fitted in with the Xeno was a sticking point.....

in hindsight having the Space Jockey as the Predator was (prior to AVP) and just some Ancient Alien race involved in some conflict who happened to end up on LV-426 and so never created Mankind, and maybe never intended the Xeno for us..

This would have been a more simple path to follow, a Generic Alien movie... even if they intended it for us... maybe if it was in the same regards as a Independence Day or Battleship... then it would have been easier.

No soon as they connected Engineers as our creators and the events that effected them and us are similar to that of the Bible and Greek Mythos... then for how Bold the Plot was..

It was a Poisoned Chalice so to speak.

 

 

I am wondering if they are leaving the events as ambiguous as far as what happened between Prometheus and Alien Covenant... so we get the aftermath with some clues... but not a full in depth story.

Which then leaves Alien Covenant with a open ended story like Prometheus.... where we could either follow David and Shaw... or maybe see what happens on LV-223 if the company sent a rescue mission.

And so with Covenant maybe we would get so many ambiguous unanswered questions as far as what became of the Engineers that it leaves this as something to explore latter if they gauge that fans would be pleased to see this... once they have their Xeno answers.

Or to forget about the Engineers and press on to how events can connect to Alien....

If there is any hope... it is that with this movie giving us a more Xeno connection... followed by another TWO Alien Prequels before we get to Alien.....   as well as a Alien 5 and potential Alien 6 if the Torch is being passed on.

This is a lot of movie time to cover our Xenomorphs and Ripley...... and so there is hope that latter Alien Prequels will give us more about the Engineers.

The Source said that the Plots for Paglen and Greens Story was a 3 Plot Story.... they referred to it as in Prometheus had really Two Plots.... and that Shaw and Holloways Quest to go to the Place of the Star Maps as being ONE PLOT and Main One.

They said that the Paglen/Green Plot was a 3 Plot one, where David and Shaws mission to go to Paradise for Answers was One Plot but there was TWO Larger ones.

They also said that Xenomorph related connections was maybe 20-25% of the whole movie and that includes having TWO kinds of Monster.   They said Prometheus actually carried a lot of Xeno Connections only they was vague and never shown much Xeno DNA related Organisms.

So it seems they wish to give us more on the Xeno first... and hope this then pleases the fans and leaves them more intrigued to find out more about these Evil Engineers.

 

As far as being Spoon Fed... yes i think sometimes having to use your brain or discuss things and not be able to come up with a complete answer that everyone else has....

Is a good thing... its one of the things Lindeloff is proud of with Prometheus... at the end of the day if it was a Spoon Fed Flick as much as Aliens was then i think it would not be a movie that has as many debates as Prometheus has.

I hope they dont go the Spoon Fed route... but i do worry it may be a movie thats a bit more Spoon Fed to please those who did not understand Prometheus at all..... its the Ripley links and comments like the Franchise is Ripley that has me concerned big time.

And Alien 5 i think will be a Knee Jerk Reaction Pop corn Flick.... it would be like doing a Ghost Busters 4.... and bring back all the old Cast in All their Old Roles for the next movie to deal with the disappointment of the latest installment..

Only having Weaver replace the role of Ramis (R.I.P)