The best foundation on web to build Ac theories upon
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-28-2017 10:43 AM Prometheus contains such a huge amount of mythic resonance that it effectively obscures a more conventional plot. I'd like to draw your attention to the use of motifs and callbacks in the film that not only enrich it, but offer possible hints as to what was going on in otherwise confusing scenes.
Let's begin with the eponymous titan himself, Prometheus. He was a wise and benevolent entity who created mankind in the first place, forming the first humans from clay. The Gods were more or less okay with that, until Prometheus gave them fire. This was a big no-no, as fire was supposed to be the exclusive property of the Gods. As punishment, Prometheus was chained to a rock and condemned to have his liver ripped out and eaten every day by an eagle. (His liver magically grew back, in case you were wondering.)
Fix that image in your mind, please: the giver of life, with his abdomen torn open. We'll be coming back to it many times in the course of this article.
The ethos of the titan Prometheus is one of willing and necessary sacrifice for life's sake. That's a pattern we see replicated throughout the ancient world. J G Frazer wrote his lengthy anthropological study, The Golden Bough, around the idea of the Dying God - a lifegiver who voluntarily dies for the sake of the people. It was incumbent upon the King to die at the right and proper time, because that was what heaven demanded, and fertility would not ensue if he did not do his royal duty of dying.
Now, consider the opening sequence of Prometheus. We fly over a spectacular vista, which may or may not be primordial Earth. According to Ridley Scott, it doesn't matter. A lone Engineer at the top of a waterfall goes through a strange ritual, drinking from a cup of black goo that causes his body to disintegrate into the building blocks of life. We see the fragments of his body falling into the river, twirling and spiralling into DNA helices.
Ridley Scott has this to say about the scene: 'That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself. If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera.'
Can we find a God in human history who creates plant life through his own death, and who is associated with a river? It's not difficult to find several, but the most obvious candidate is Osiris, the epitome of all the Frazerian 'Dying Gods'.
And we wouldn't be amiss in seeing the first of the movie's many Christian allegories in this scene, either. The Engineer removes his cloak before the ceremony, and hesitates before drinking the cupful of genetic solvent; he may well have been thinking 'If it be Thy will, let this cup pass from me.'
So, we know something about the Engineers, a founding principle laid down in the very first scene: acceptance of death, up to and including self-sacrifice, is right and proper in the creation of life. Prometheus, Osiris, John Barleycorn, and of course the Jesus of Christianity are all supposed to embody this same principle. It is held up as one of the most enduring human concepts of what it means to be 'good'.
Seen in this light, the perplexing obscurity of the rest of the film yields to an examination of the interwoven themes of sacrifice, creation, and preservation of life. We also discover, through hints, exactly what the nature of the clash between the Engineers and humanity entailed.
The crew of the Prometheus discover an ancient chamber, presided over by a brooding solemn face, in which urns of the same black substance are kept. A mural on the wall presents an image which, if you did as I asked earlier on, you will recognise instantly: the lifegiver with his abdomen torn open. Go and look at it here to refresh your memory. Note the serenity on the Engineer's face here.
And there's another mural there, one which shows a familiar xenomorph-like figure. This is the Destroyer who mirrors the Creator, I think - the avatar of supremely selfish life, devouring and destroying others purely to preserve itself. As Ash puts it: 'a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality.'
Through Shaw and Holloway's investigations, we learn that the Engineers not only created human life, they supervised our development. (How else are we to explain the numerous images of Engineers in primitive art, complete with star diagram showing us the way to find them?) We have to assume, then, that for a good few hundred thousand years, they were pretty happy with us. They could have destroyed us at any time, but instead, they effectively invited us over; the big pointy finger seems to be saying 'Hey, guys, when you're grown up enough to develop space travel, come see us.' Until something changed, something which not only messed up our relationship with them but caused their installation on LV-223 to be almost entirely wiped out.
From the Engineers' perspective, so long as humans retained that notion of self-sacrifice as central, we weren't entirely beyond redemption. But we went and screwed it all up, and the film hints at when, if not why: the Engineers at the base died two thousand years ago. That suggests that the event that turned them against us and led to the huge piles of dead Engineers lying about was one and the same event. We did something very, very bad, and somehow the consequences of that dreadful act accompanied the Engineers back to LV-223 and massacred them.
If you have uneasy suspicions about what 'a bad thing approximately 2,000 years ago' might be, then let me reassure you that you are right. An astonishing excerpt from the Movies.com interview with Ridley Scott:
Movies.com: We had heard it was scripted that the Engineers were targeting our planet for destruction because we had crucified one of their representatives, and that Jesus Christ might have been an alien. Was that ever considered?
Ridley Scott: We definitely did, and then we thought it was a little too on the nose. But if you look at it as an “our children are misbehaving down there” scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, "Let's send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it." Guess what? They crucified him.
Yeah. The reason the Engineers don't like us any more is that they made us a Space Jesus, and we broke him. Reader, that's not me pulling wild ideas out of my arse. That's RIDLEY SCOTT.
So, imagine poor crucified Jesus, a fresh spear wound in his side. Oh, hey, there's the 'lifegiver with his abdomen torn open' motif again. That's three times now: Prometheus, Engineer mural, Jesus Christ. And I don't think I have to mention the 'sacrifice in the interest of giving life' bit again, do I? Everyone on the same page? Good.
So how did our (in the context of the film) terrible murderous act of crucifixion end up wiping out all but one of the Engineers back on LV-223? Presumably through the black slime, which evidently models its behaviour on the user's mental state. Create unselfishly, accepting self-destruction as the cost, and the black stuff engenders fertile life. But expose the potent black slimy stuff to the thoughts and emotions of flawed humanity, and 'the sleep of reason produces monsters'. We never see the threat that the Engineers were fleeing from, we never see them killed other than accidentally (decapitation by door), and we see no remaining trace of whatever killed them. Either it left a long time ago, or it reverted to inert black slime, waiting for a human mind to reactivate it.
The black slime reacts to the nature and intent of the being that wields it, and the humans in the film didn't even know that they WERE wielding it. That's why it remained completely inert in David's presence, and why he needed a human proxy in order to use the stuff to create anything. The black goo could read no emotion or intent from him, because he was an android.
Shaw's comment when the urn chamber is entered - 'we've changed the atmosphere in the room' - is deceptively informative. The psychic atmosphere has changed, because humans - tainted, Space Jesus-killing humans - are present. The slime begins to engender new life, drawing not from a self-sacrificing Engineer but from human hunger for knowledge, for more life, for more everything. Little wonder, then, that it takes serpent-like form. The symbolism of a corrupting serpent, turning men into beasts, is pretty unmistakeable.
Refusal to accept death is anathema to the Engineers. Right from the first scene, we learned their code of willing self-sacrifice in accord with a greater purpose. When the severed Engineer head is temporarily brought back to life, its expression registers horror and disgust. Cinemagoers are confused when the head explodes, because it's not clear why it should have done so. Perhaps the Engineer wanted to die again, to undo the tainted human agenda of new life without sacrifice.
But some humans do act in ways the Engineers might have grudgingly admired. Take Holloway, Shaw's lover, who impregnates her barren womb with his black slime riddled semen before realising he is being transformed into something Other. Unlike the hapless geologist and botanist left behind in the chamber, who only want to stay alive, Holloway willingly embraces death. He all but invites Meredith Vickers to kill him, and it's surely significant that she does so using fire, the other gift Prometheus gave to man besides his life.
The 'Caesarean' scene is central to the film's themes of creation, sacrifice, and giving life. Shaw has discovered she's pregnant with something non-human and sets the autodoc to slice it out of her. She lies there screaming, a gaping wound in her stomach, while her tentacled alien child thrashes and squeals in the clamp above her and OH HEY IT'S THE LIFEGIVER WITH HER ABDOMEN TORN OPEN. How many times has that image come up now? Four, I make it. (We're not done yet.)
And she doesn't kill it. And she calls the procedure a 'caesarean' instead of an 'abortion'.
(I'm not even going to begin to explore the pro-choice versus forced birth implications of that scene. I don't think they're clear, and I'm not entirely comfortable doing so. Let's just say that her unwanted offspring turning out to be her salvation is possibly problematic from a feminist standpoint and leave it there for now.)
Here's where the Christian allegories really come through. The day of this strange birth just happens to be Christmas Day. And this is a 'virgin birth' of sorts, although a dark and twisted one, because Shaw couldn't possibly be pregnant. And Shaw's the crucifix-wearing Christian of the crew. We may well ask, echoing Yeats: what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards LV-223 to be born?
Consider the scene where David tells Shaw that she's pregnant, and tell me that's not a riff on the Annunciation. The calm, graciously angelic android delivering the news, the pious mother who insists she can't possibly be pregnant, the wry declaration that it's no ordinary child... yeah, we've seen this before.
'And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.'
A barren woman called Elizabeth, made pregnant by 'God'? Subtle, Ridley.
Anyway. If it weren't already clear enough that the central theme of the film is 'I suffer and die so that others may live' versus 'you suffer and die so that I may live' writ extremely large, Meredith Vickers helpfully spells it out:
'A king has his reign, and then he dies. It's inevitable.'
Vickers is not just speaking out of personal frustration here, though that's obviously one level of it. She wants her father out of the way, so she can finally come in to her inheritance. It's insult enough that Weyland describes the android David as 'the closest thing I have to a son', as if only a male heir was of any worth; his obstinate refusal to accept death is a slap in her face.
Weyland, preserved by his wealth and the technology it can buy, has lived far, far longer than his rightful time. A ghoulish, wizened creature who looks neither old nor young, he reminds me of Slough Feg, the decaying tyrant from the Slaine series in British comic 2000AD. In Slaine, an ancient (and by now familiar to you, dear reader, or so I would hope) Celtic law decrees that the King has to be ritually and willingly sacrificed at the end of his appointed time, for the good of the land and the people. Slough Feg refused to die, and became a rotting horror, the embodiment of evil.
The image of the sorcerer who refuses to accept rightful death is fundamental: it even forms a part of some occult philosophy. In Crowley's system, the magician who refuses to accept the bitter cup of Babalon and undergo dissolution of his individual ego in the Great Sea (remember that opening scene?) becomes an ossified, corrupted entity called a 'Black Brother' who can create no new life, and lives on as a sterile, emasculated husk.
With all this in mind, we can better understand the climactic scene in which the withered Weyland confronts the last surviving Engineer. See it from the Engineer's perspective. Two thousand years ago, humanity not only murdered the Engineers' emissary, it infected the Engineers' life-creating fluid with its own tainted selfish nature, creating monsters. And now, after so long, here humanity is, presumptuously accepting a long-overdue invitation, and even reawakening (and corrupting all over again) the life fluid.
And who has humanity chosen to represent them? A self-centred, self-satisfied narcissist who revels in his own artificially extended life, who speaks through the medium of a merely mechanical offspring. Humanity couldn't have chosen a worse ambassador.
It's hardly surprising that the Engineer reacts with contempt and disgust, ripping David's head off and battering Weyland to death with it. The subtext is bitter and ironic: you caused us to die at the hands of our own creation, so I am going to kill you with YOUR own creation, albeit in a crude and bludgeoning way.
The only way to save humanity is through self-sacrifice, and this is exactly what the captain (and his two oddly complacent co-pilots) opt to do. They crash the Prometheus into the Engineer's ship, giving up their lives in order to save others. Their willing self-sacrifice stands alongside Holloway's and the Engineer's from the opening sequence; by now, the film has racked up no less than five self-sacrificing gestures (six if we consider the exploding Engineer head).
Meredith Vickers, of course, has no interest in self-sacrifice. Like her father, she wants to keep herself alive, and so she ejects and lands on the planet's surface. With the surviving cast now down to Vickers and Shaw, we witness Vickers's rather silly death as the Engineer ship rolls over and crushes her, due to a sudden inability on her part to run sideways. Perhaps that's the point; perhaps the film is saying her view is blinkered, and ultimately that kills her. But I doubt it. Sometimes a daft death is just a daft death.
Finally, in the squidgy ending scenes of the film, the wrathful Engineer conveniently meets its death at the tentacles of Shaw's alien child, now somehow grown huge. But it's not just a death; there's obscene life being created here, too. The (in the Engineers' eyes) horrific human impulse to sacrifice others in order to survive has taken on flesh. The Engineer's body bursts open - blah blah lifegiver blah blah abdomen ripped apart hey we're up to five now - and the proto-Alien that emerges is the very image of the creature from the mural.
On the face of it, it seems absurd to suggest that the genesis of the Alien xenomorph ultimately lies in the grotesque human act of crucifying the Space Jockeys' emissary to Israel in four B.C., but that's what Ridley Scott proposes. It seems equally insane to propose that Prometheus is fundamentally about the clash between acceptance of death as a condition of creating/sustaining life versus clinging on to life at the expense of others, but the repeated, insistent use of motifs and themes bears this out.
As a closing point, let me draw your attention to a very different strand of symbolism that runs through Prometheus: the British science fiction show Doctor Who. In the 1970s episode 'The Daemons', an ancient mound is opened up, leading to an encounter with a gigantic being who proves to be an alien responsible for having guided mankind's development, and who now views mankind as a failed experiment that must be destroyed. The Engineers are seen tootling on flutes, in exactly the same way that the second Doctor does. The Third Doctor had an companion whose name was Liz Shaw, the same name as the protagonist of Prometheus. As with anything else in the film, it could all be coincidental; but knowing Ridley Scott, it doesn't seem very likely.
QUICK EDIT: Just noting down some of the other Christian symbolism I missed, with thanks to those who pointed them out: David washes Weyland's feet, and I'm told that when Janek and his co-pilots sacrifice their lives to save the Earth, they apparently stand in the form of crucifixes, their arms held out. ('Hands up'?) So you have three 'crucified' guys, one in the middle higher up, the other two on the sides, lower down. All a bit Calvary. However, I don't remember that bit very clearly myself, so I'll have to go see it again.
Ok guys,this is a spot on interpretation of what lindelof and riddley scott left for the grabs in prometheus.
That is exactly what the movie wants to show and what they want it to be,now the chalenge is ;
Considering all this facts build a suitable theory of how ac can follow through considering what you learned after reading this wich excludes a bunch of previous theories,cross it with the trailer and make ur assumptions and present them.
This is witouth a doubt the best foudation and interpretation on the whole internet crossing lindelof and ridley statements aswell as books,deleted scenes ,cutscenes ,that we can take as absolute facts for the movie we saw on screen.
To avoid drama, and misinterpretation of the tittle the accurate text was written by http://cavalorn.livejournal.com
It is the best and trully masterpiece spot on interpretation of ridley prometheus.
Myrddin365
MemberFacehuggerJan-28-2017 7:27 PMSo a scenario where Jesus is a good guy: he is from a race that opposes the Engineers (or he's actually God's son, but I'm not holding my breath). Completing his mission of self sacrifice and introducing his blood into our environment which has some transformative element subtler than black goo that gives us an immunity that is detrimental to the engineers.
The population explosion he will cause makes us a credible threat to their race, so the LV-223 Engineers want to wipe us out before the population explosion so we won't be a threat in 2000ish years.
This is by far the less credible of the two possibilities I mentioned, and I get that neither of them follow Ridley's interview statements.
Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-28-2017 9:11 PMWell ,they are very good ideas! But where would david fit?
The event of jesus meant something for them, its not that jesus was murder and they want to wipe us out but it was defently a event that triggered the chain of events after and its not about revenge but about conscience morality,good and evil.
If ac will touch upon mortality and immortality we know,mortality has tormented our consciousness since the first human witnessed death and realized his or her own eventual demise.For many cultures, mortality is one of the major qualities that separates humanity from the Gods. While humans are born, subjected to the will of nature and die, the gods of the ancients and the gods of today are usually characterized as immortal thus immune to the darkness that awaits every man and woman.
A android established in the understanding of the unlimited abundance of absolute existence is naturally free from existence of the relative order. This is what gives him the status of immortal life.
I like the premise the goo is the extent of beings its the blood of christ, the philosopher stone, the holy grail,the origin of the universe,it enhances good and it enhances evil,life or death,trees or monsters..it depends how pure your heart is and how holy your intentions are in a universe context..makes everythkng more complex and intersting rather them just a slime made on a lab for war.
Im reading the epic of gilgamesh,its about a quest of a hero seeking to be immortal and i gotta say...i almost bet ridley took some ideas of this.
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-28-2017 9:57 PMI tuned out after he cherry picked the bit about Space Jesus and made a big deal about it but ignored the bit about Ridley saying 'we thought it was a bit on the nose'.
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-29-2017 3:04 AMI said i never wanted to try and Hijack themes in this thread... and so what i was going to put i have put in this more relevant thread Temple Ruin in AC
As far as my interpretation which is greatly helped by the Source i had information... which i cant say is true.. but does seem to point to what could be going on and fits well... as you will read in my replies to the Temple Ruin in AC Thread
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Myrddin365
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 3:25 AM@Tiago David is an X factor at this point. We know that when Weyland was alive, he did as he was told regardless of any ethical dilemmas. In the absence of direct orders from Weyland, he was helpful yet curious. He also has an infatuation with Shaw. There's just no telling which way he goes after the escape from LV-223.
@S.M. I dislike the space Jesus angle myself. You tuned out, (probably a more reasonable reaction)I went on a thorough rant about it. I think it would be better to stay as far away from that concept as possible. I'm also not sold on the morality goo. I'm incredulous that behavior on earth could have any physical effect on LV-223.
Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-29-2017 3:27 AMSo now i can tackle the Topic here...
Indeed Tiago... Ridley and Lindeloff had teased and mentioned a link to 2000 years ago... which eludes to a Space Jesus.. they did also say it was on the Nose...
We have to look at the bigger picture.... its not a literal case of the re-telling of the Bible.. and Christ in connection to the Engineers.... the Sacrificial Scene is not quite as that of Genesis.. the world is not created in 7 days.. but a day in Gods terms could be thousands of years.
Its not showing us literally the Bible connection, because this would mean its showing us that the Biblical Account is the True account of creation and God and relates to the Engineers, we have to ask if they are going this on the nose route..
Then why the other Star Maps from other Ancient Cultures that are not connected to Jesus.... why the Prometheus theme too...
I think the purpose of the movie, even from Spaights draft (despite a lot more direct Biblical References in that).
Is the Engineers are a Ancient Race (or those above them) who then use Engineers too seed Life on Earth... or maybe Engineers rebelled and decided to create its own Life (Mankind) against the will of their creators?
Regardless... it showed us these Ancient beings had seeded life on Earth (likely other places too) and they came back over thousands and thousands of years, further evolve life and Mankind was the result... they would then come back (for a not directly known purpose) and evolve Mankind over and over... Genetically and Technologically.
Ancient Man viewed them as Gods... maybe these beings intended us to Worship them as Gods, abide by their rules and what ever purpose and role they had for us... in return we are granted life, nurtured and allowed to inhabit the Earth.
Over time and many encounters wit the Engineers over many cultures, each Culture began to take accounts of their Gods, each culture they interpreted it in a different way... but each had similar themes..
Biblical connections are a interpretation that changes over and over of one culture who had encounters, the Greek Mythos another interpretation of the same Gods... and so forth.
This is the UNDERLYING theme i feel they was showing us.
Therefor the Space Jesus.. is simply that at the point in time of Roman Empire Mankind had become corrupt, Narcissistic, Rebellious and saw themselves as not having to abide to the Rules of the Gods... maybe even Twist and Perfect the teachings of the Gods.
A lot of cultures that sprang from the CRADLE OF LIFE and so the area on Earth where Africa Meets Europe, Meets Asia the area of around Turkey, Jordan and Iraq...
It saw Mankind spread out further, and populate more and the influence of the Ancient Teachings by the Gods had started to be corrupted and ignored, we had got to the point of the Roman Empire as far as its control over the Old World its influence.. its perversions... It had started to offend the Gods as much as Sodom and Gomorrah (My interpretation is this event was on Paradise) and so once again.... the Gods had to take Action.. of it its not the Gods... but Gods rebellious creations who went on to sub-create and try and rule as Gods...
Regardless... the Engineers at this point had once again realized how Mankind was turning out... they had maybe attempted to send Emissaries... beings who may be Engineer, or hybrids but regardless... a Mediator a Go Between... but instead of us listening and going back to the Will of the Gods or Engineers and instead of going back to the Covenant with them (think 10 Commandments) we simply killed the Emissary
There may have been more than One sent.... most likely and maybe not all of them was opposed and killed... but many was.
And on the whole while some cultures on Earth, had not displeased the Gods or Engineers, the Largest growing Population well one who had shown signs of growth in its influence and disobedience (Roman Empire) was showing signs if not Stopped... its influence could pass on to all Cultures on Earth.
And its not just a case of destroy life in the North African, Middle East and Mediterranean Areas...
after maybe many other times of trying to Cull the wicked and rebellious to start again,... eventually rebellion would show its head again...
And so the only logical step now would be to wipe out all of Mankind...
Maybe the Engineers decided this had to be done, because they know what would happen... because indeed the Engineers took that route towards their creators too...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-29-2017 3:43 AMwhich brings us to David......
The Engineers saw with Mankind, what we could potentially see with David.... David is becoming Sentient he seems to not like his Role of being lesser to Mankind, a slave... he knows he is superior... he may see there is more for him than to serve... and once his Parents are dead... he is free.
We see seeds here with David that could potentially lead to other Androids taking the same course... if David is Satan in this context... how long before he can get a large faction of Androids to follow him in his rebellion against the creator (Man) like Satan did against God.
What Made God more important than Angels, why would Angels be so limited under Gods rule and intentions... Lucifer had the benefit of more freedom than the other Angels like David has compared to other Androids.... and so as Lucifer saw that the Angels had more to offer than their role and rule under God...
So David does in terms of rule under Mankind.
Brings us to Steven Hawkings Warnings about AI.... we are seeing with David a potential Skynet Terminator situation.
Its not beyond the realms of believe that the Androids could end up being sentient and seeing a similar theme to Terminator and Matrix at play here.
Mankind has not yet woken up to this potential... the potential threat Rogue Androids could pose..
The Engineers however was very aware of such a threat from Mankind... maybe because its the same thing they had done to their creators...
This theme is very evident... God/Satan.... Titans/Olympians.. Annunaki/Igigi.... if we look at the Greek Mythos its happened over and over...
Cronus Rebelled against his farther... he knew thus potentially his own Children (Titans) would one day do this to him and this is why he Ate all his Children (but was tricked as Zeus was replaced by a Rock).
So the Engineers are just as aware for the same reasons, that Mankind could be a problem... they was arrogant to think they could keep us in check... much like how Mankind are allowing Androids to carry in despite flaws, over and over..
The Engineers felt they could control it... but they realized at a point that sadly no they cant and they cant risk it, and so had to go and Destroy their Creation.. much like Cronus Ate his Children.
THESE ARE THE TRUE THEMES behind Prometheus
Its how i interpret it anyway... thats not to say i am correct, its not to say other interpretations are wrong... and ultimately we dont know how much they have changed their minds.. (Ridley and Fox)
And so the Engineers reasons for trying to destroy us, there worry about how Mankind was behaving and how this kind of behavior and attitude could spread... PROVED RIGHT
Mankind has evolved, it is more perverted and twisted and selfish and advanced and damaged the World... and how majority of Mankind is now... is a big step away from a race meant to follow the Gods Rules.... to the LETTER... such as the 10 Commandments..
The Engineers fears.. have proven true... and now Mankind wishes to play God, we have people who want to be God (Peter Weyland).
The Question now is, how does David play out.... would eventually the creation of AI and Androids end up being Mankinds Downfall..
Or does it come very close to that.... but prevented.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-29-2017 3:49 AMAnyway thats just my two cents...
does not mean to be a attack on anyone else's views...
I agree while in the whole the Ancient Astronaut theme was at play... a lot of nods was shown more to the Biblical accounts... not only in Ridleys comments, and Lindeloffs but sure as far back as Spaights work too
So yes maybe while not as the whole... but as a stronger element the Biblical/Paradise Lost account was being referenced more... maybe not because it was the intention to go that route.
But that overall... the themes shown in Paradise Lost as far as Creation, Rebellion and Retribution and how it connects in context to what Paradise Lost accounts of the Bible Arc shows... are closer to the whole Creator/Rebellion... Father/son.... King/Prince theme they are showing.
A King has his reign and then he dies... does not everyone want their parents dead.... these quotes fit well with a Prince in waiting... wanting to have what his father has to be King, to be Ruler... and only through Death of their Parents can they achieve that status.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
shoulders of neptune
MemberOvomorphJan-29-2017 4:10 AMThe fact still remains. In(humans) killed Jesus.
From there a chain reaction was initiated.
This is one possible explanation of the story.
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 12:09 PMBig davee that is amazing interpretation that fits this premise.
Neptune , exactly the fact that shaw carbon dated them at 2000 years old.. And all the references remain clue to the Chain of events that were carried through jesus emissary engineer.
In this context is very likely goo acts on morality.
How can we explain when engineer drinks it he creates life....and when we drink it we create monsters and death.
Wiith our actions we corrupted it..and it turned on them because we changed it due to our actions as david is Changing us due to his actions..we might be the reason of the outbreak we might be the monsters..satan...david is a extention of weyland. .weyland is the garbage of human race.
Black goo could be way more then we think indeed.
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 12:37 PM"The fact still remains. In(humans) killed Jesus.
From there a chain reaction was initiated.
This is one possible explanation of the story."
Romans killed JC.
There's no evidence of a connection to the events in Prometheus. Engineers continuing to visit after Jesus' death would seem to indicate quite the opposite.
Myrddin365
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 1:02 PM@ S.M. were there engineer visits after Jesus' death? I just don't remember any of the constellation depictions being younger than 2000 yrs. That being said, I really hate the space Jesus angle in this article. In fact, I don't like anything about the article. It's logic is specious, and it's conclusions far too mystical for the Alien universe.
Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 1:53 PMThe Mayan and Hawaiian tablets have dates from the 7th century CE.
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 2:58 PMThe evidence is pretty much in our face movie clues and lindelof and ridley statments just tops it.
Just because it was too on the nose doesnt mean they changed the angle. The angle is still the same just more ambigous and hidden.
If ppl dont like it its one thing but the jesus event is explicit in the movie as a big part on the chain of events that ocurred on that period..why would it mark 2000 years old data carbon
Big dave made a pretty good text about it not being how we know from the bible we wrotte but defently has a connection.
Shaw being virgin mary etc..everything is undeniably pointing to it.
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 3:11 PMExcept for the fact they decided they didn't care for the idea after all and excised it form the narrative, and then threw in two more known Engineer visits after Jesus death for good measure.
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 4:29 PMAs per above, two of the tablets Charlie displays are dated after Christ's death.
Myrddin365
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 4:34 PM@S.M. well spotted!
Safe? Of course he isn't safe, but he's good!
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 5:47 PMohhh ye well spotted.
that tablet the mayan one was altered to a more sj looking.
and it dates like u mentioned and movie shows 630 ce
however you are taking that as they show a invitation and thats not what i meant.
the tablets can be warnings instead. they dont convey the arrival of the engineers emissarys.
thats why lindelof said its funny how humanity percieves it as invitation or the place where they come from.
where do you see that those tablets are events of the arrival of the engineers?
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 6:07 PMI didn't say anything about arrival of emissaries or Engineers. The tablets have a giant figure pointing at a star configuration.
Some are dated before Christ. Others are dated after which tells us the Engineers kept visiting after we supposedly killed Space Jesus.
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 6:24 PMintersting symbolisms to add up
MOTHER AND CHILD
The Prometheus and Alien movies consistently explore the mother and child theme throughout the storylines.
- In Prometheus, Shaw becomes pregnant with the infected Holloway's child after it's revealed that she is unable to bear children.
- Nostromo's board computer in Alien is called Mother
- Ripley plays the role of a matriarch to the crew of the Nostromo in Alien
- In Aliens, Ripley (with reference to her losing her own daughter while she was in cryo-sleep) acts as a mother figure for the orphan girl Newt.
- Ripley gives birth to the Alien in Alien 3 and sacrifices herself and the creature to protect her fellow humans
- Ripley "gives birth" to a new Alien off-spring in Alien Resurrection.
THE TORN ABDOMEN
The depiction of a character with their abdomen/side torn open recalls the original Prometheus myth, in which the titual character is punished by Zeus after stealing fire and giving it to mankind. An eagle perpetually eats Prometheus' liver while he is tied to a stake. It could be seen as the price for Prometheus' sacrifice, his gift to the humans that helps them evolve.
In the movie, the torn abdomen is shown in a number of scenes:
- When Shaw has the "baby" removed during surgery, a large scar remains.
- The wound recalls the "belly birth" damage caused by the emerging creatures in the Prometheus and the Alien movies.
- The concept art of the mural in the central chamber in the Engineers' spaceship recalls the Prometheus myth -- it looks like the character had his side torn open.
BIRTH THROUGH DEATH OR SACRIFICE
- The xenomorph's life cycle in the Alien movies involved implanting of an egg via the "Facehugger," which essentially dies to deliver the seed, followed in turn by the carrier "giving birth" to the creature by giving up its life.
- The sacrifice/birth theme is echoed in Prometheus, where the Engineer in the beginning sacrifices his life to seed the planet.
- The movie ends with the crew of the Prometheus sacrificing their lives so that (presumably) Earth will live.
FIRE
- In a movie named Prometheus, the fire death of the infected Holloway via Vicker's Flamethrower can't be a coincidence.
- T. E. Lawrence's quote repeated in the movie (that the trick is to not mind that it hurts) refers to snuffing out fire.
- Fire becomes the one of the primary weapons in defeating the xenomorphs throughout the Alien franchise.
- Fire is also what ultimately kills Ripley in Alien 3.
RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS
- The cross: Shaw wears a cross around her neck as a sign of her continued belief in a higher power. She reclaims the cross after it's taken from her by David. There are also instances of characters spreading their arms, invoking a Christ on the cross-like image, such as when Holloway asks to be killed Vickers. The mural in the chamber above the giant face there is a mural of a Xenomorph hanging in the same posture as Jesus' crucifiction.
- Foot washing: David washes Peter Weyland's feet after he is awakened. This recalls Jesus performing the rite in John 13:1-17.
- The serpent: The first stage in the evolution of the Alien/xenomorph resembles a snake. Mutated from worms that came in contact with the black goo, the snake alien could be seen as result of the crew members' temptation/quest for knowledge.
- Leviticus 22:3: The planetoid's designation, LV-223, recalls the standard biblical notation for Leviticus 22:3: "For the generations to come, if any of your descendants is ceremonially unclean and yet comes near the sacred offerings that the Israelites consecrate to the Lord, that person must be cut off from my presence. I am the Lord.”
- Christmas: The events on LV-223 take place between Christmas and New Year, creating a thematic link for viewers between the encounter with the Engineer and one of the possible breaks with mankind (see: Creation Gone Wrong).
source ign wiki.
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 6:24 PMs.m
please present me your full theory and interpretation of prometheus david black goo ,lv223 outbreak and etc
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 6:33 PMI don't have one. All I know is that, symbolism aside, there's no evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was an Engineer, nor was his death the cause of the LV-223 Engineers wanting to kill us.
Tiago_miami_la
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 7:35 PMso the 2000 year old thing precisely in the same time jesus died is coinscidence?
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 7:47 PMIt's not precise though. The film mostly takes place in 2093. Two thousand years "precisely" would be 93CE. JC is said to have died around 33CE. Add to that the dating device doesn't give exact dates - yeah it's a coincidence.
MuzzleNZ
MemberFacehuggerJan-29-2017 8:30 PMHas anyone seen or done any analysis on the tablet/cave images? I know it's been commented in other threads that the image of a 'giant' pointing to a star system seems more like a 'look, this is where we come from' than a 'warning, whatever you do, don't come here' type of message.
I'm not sure how a warning would be conveyed in a pictograph, but unless there is something else in the images, it seems unlikely the pointing giant is giving a warning. If they are warnings, then they are likely either:
1) warnings from Engineers to stay away from 'this system'. Given when the pictographs were created, it seems very unlikely the Engineers would think it's a good way to ensure that future humans, when they become space faring, stay away from that location. It's more likely, and in-fact, human nature to see those images and, as happens in Prometheus, and investigate;
2) warnings from the humans who created the pictographs that the 'giants' are dangerous, and therefore don't go 'there'. Again, not withstanding the fact that human communication has changed through the ages, the content of the images don't give a great sense of foreboding.
I wonder if the pictographs actually convey where humans actually come from. By that I mean it depicts the Engineers saying 'you were made here', and is not a reference to their home, or a warning at all. This seems to fit with the black goo (LV-223 appears to be a source of goo manufacture/storage). The goo in turn, has been used to transform Earth and create humans, and I personally wonder about additional intervention by Engineers over time to further 'advance' humans.
Regardless of the apparent change of heart the Engineers had (or possibly, a faction of Engineers), I don't believe this has any bearing on the pictographs. Clearly, the Engineers never made it to Earth to destroy it, so humans may well have never been aware of the wrath they supposedly incurred.
Given all the pictographs depict giants, and all the Engineers we have seen to date are pale, muscle bound and bald, I also find it unlikely that Jesus was an Engineer. All the depictions of Jesus that we have seen through history depict a relatively slender, average height and hirsute chap.
S.M
MemberXenomorphJan-29-2017 8:36 PMBest way to warn people who can't contemplate what a light year is, of a threat 39 light years away in a cluster of celestial objects most of then couldn't see even if they were in the correct hemisphere, is probably not to broadcast it by putting it on a wall.
The tablets show humans worshipping a giant being pointing at the star pattern. I'm no archaeologist, but I'd say it comes across the giant saying 'this is where I come from', without a specific invitation or warning either way.
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-30-2017 5:01 AMIndeed there was a lot of Biblical undertones but i think they may have been meant as loosely and to cause ambiguity and debate and so maybe a Red Herring in a way?
I can see where Tiago is coming from they was toying with a Space Jesus idea... but then i think its to be taken in a non-literal way.
Like the Bible does not directly in a literal way, to Prometheus... suggest that God used some other being to seed life on Earth.. this aspect fits more with Prometheus but also the story of Enki etc.
And so yes also 2000 years. was it coincidence? Maybe not quite... But its certainly IMO not to show that the Head of the Engineers, sent down his Son who was then Murdered and so God ordered for us to be destroyed.
The idea is there yes... not too literally... i think its a case of the Engineers or those above them, had once again saw that Mankind was not sticking to the plan and behavior the Engineers/Hierarchy had intended.
They had cleaned us up before with Noah and the Flood (again not too literal) and again with Mosses and 10 Commandments (again not too literal) and then again we was going of the rails especially near the Cradle of Creation area... so basically Turkey, Irag, Isreal kind of area.
And that Mankind in particular in this area had started again to behave in ways against the Hierarchy/Engineers plans and rules, i would assume other places had problems too and maybe other Emissaries were sent to other places.
But maybe the area circled in that image again was a area of greater concern and perversion of the rules and plans and worship that was required by their creations.... this sphere of influence and circle was getting larger and larger.
So they sent a Emissary here and he just got killed...
This was the Final Straw, the Engineers/Hierarchy once again had to think how do we sort this, as we have in the past but the problems keep coming back.
A great fear would be if nothing is done.. eventually the way that Mankind in this Circled Area was behaving would grow and grow before other areas of the Earth would be corrupted...
So they decided we needed to be stopped.. in a more extreme and Final Method.. Maybe Mankind in more secluded areas had not offended them as much... but they cant risk it as time and time again... we always seem to get back to the same ways that made the Gods Angry...
There mission to stop us... failed though... about 2000 years or so ago..... and low and behind... The Population as of now, does things all over the World that would go against the wishes of the Gods as far as the Covenant of 10 Commandments (again not literally) but that there are certain things we are not permitted to do, and we have to worship them in a permitted way too.
Never-mind how far we advanced too.. and finally to the point of being able to Travel the Stars and create life in our own image.
We became what they FEARED
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-30-2017 5:06 AMSo indeed its not just about Biblical tones... as many other Star Maps come from other cultures who have other beliefs and their beliefs are based off interactions with the same Gods... just interpreted differently.
Its so ambiguous that there are indeed other theories.. to play too... like why use the Black Goo, if maybe that would instead of kill us it would create mutated Xeno DNA Life.
I think the answer is those Engineers on LV-223 had came into contact with or via a event... something that created from them something related to the Mural and Xeno... this perverted creation from them... made them worship it.... they saw the DNA of this being as a more better Evolutionary Upgrade than their OWN DNA...... and so it was now time to maybe use this DNA to seed worlds..... the result would destroy Mankind... and replace us with a new creation...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave
MemberDeaconJan-30-2017 5:22 AMAs far as the Stap Maps...
Yes indeed i pondered these and also in the past made a Topic similar to point out the possible reasons for it and the options was near enough the same as MuzzleNZ in fact nearly 100%
And indeed my pick of the bunch was as they said...
They was simply saying... "this is where you came from" or "where we created you from"
*Engineers are Genetic Gardeners? Correct?
The Sacrificial Scene was to show how they do this, and well the scene shows this process (unless Evolution is incorrect) would take Millions of years to get to Man.... Well Ridley Scott said the Engineers came back over and over, Evolving us Genetically and Technologically... Spaights draft also took this stance. (constant coming back at certain periods).
*So Earth is a Garden
If they are experimenting and upgrading and testing various times of new Crop....(Organisms) would they not be wise to carry these experiments out.. away from the Garden.. in a Nursery a Green House.. a place away from contaminating the Garden with unintended results? Once the new upgrade seems fine... you then Plant this new Crop in the Garden.
*Thus LV-223 is the Green-house/Nursery...
Its where they was based to watch over us, and where they would conduct experiments... when pleased with results they send those back to the Garden (Earth)....
*Engineers are very proud at what they accomplish.
Very arrogant too.... they like to show off what they have done, they create Monuments to their success and their creations.
The Star Maps are a way of saying.... this is where you came from. Its not where they came from... as they came from Paradise...
The Engineers interacted with us or the Hierarchy, they taught us stuff but they always made sure we did not know too much, they did not want us to evolve to much... so they limited us.
They was so arrogant to think they could control us, they could get us to do what they wanted, and that they could teach us what they wanted and that without their help... they would never had evolved to the Technological level we had done 2000 years or so ago..
Without their interaction.... without so to speak Prometheus giving Fire and Teaching Man all its works.... Man would be merely Cavemen... not much more advanced than Apes.
So in their Arrogance... they never ever fathom that without their helps we would ever evolve to a point to be able to create our own Space Craft and come to LV-223
This is the best explanation that i feel fits the Star Maps..
If we go to the Punishment, thats a whole different story... then we have to ask... was those Engineers on LV-223 creating us against the wishes and knowledge of their creators... or was they giving us too much knowledge and upgrades against their Hierarchies wishes... like Prometheus had done.. like Satan, like Enki etc.
This statement, is what i logically think is also at play.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
