Where I think Sir Ridley Scott could be going...

"If he isn't the creator of the Xenos then the prequels narrative would be pointless and it would fall apart."

Lawrence of Arabia don't worry, it will not fall apart. If the derelict ship from Alien left LV223 during or after the outbreak it would all make sense. And the xenomorph will remain the mighty killing machine it once was.

All the creators, godless in their hubris to play god, will die by the hand of their creation.

I think that this is the reason of the fragile chestburster from Covenant, to show that the Protomorph created by David is not the natural beast we see in Alien. That's why we see it in the open, to admire its perfect composure and its fragility at the same time. No matter how aggressive it seems it is not the visceral monster that came out of Kane.

And as joylitt said, the xenomorph we know was not created by David or by Engineers. 

I concur to that opinion and I hope Ridley will validate it.

daliens 

"As a joke, in the book there were 3 facehuggers he took on board the Covenant? Let's hope he swallowed the third one and somehow the facehugger managed to turn into a chestburster. End of David".

I have referred to this point on a couple of occasions. ADF's book was based on a pre finish screen play. So at some point they went from 3 embryo's laying in the trays to 2 embryo's being regurgitated by a David whose symphony is off. The message of the end of the movie is David has had ALIEN embryos inside him are all these points of no consequence or are the visual clues we have seen in the Crossing David in the Jockey chair and of course there is this

http://worldofdictionary.com/dict/latin-english/meaning/origa.  

Origae being the female derivation for charioteer and helmsman.

daliens I think David's work on Paradise might have a different purpose other than revenge. Probably we will see David's role from a different perspective next time we see him. What David seeks is validation. That is very obvious to me.

Michelle Johnston mentioning of Origae-6 (Auriga) I believe is another trick to lead us astray. Like the 2000 colonists from Covenant (false hint at a xenomorph army or the thousands of eggs from the derelict). It would have been too flawed to find David on Origae-6, so they where headed somewhere, name it Origae -6 but they were diverted to the Paradise Lost, Ridley is always good at names (what kind of name is Sulaco anyway?).

I believe we were fed a lot of false leads in Covenant, that will have no continuity in Awakening. That will infuriate again a lot of people.

As joylitt put it we were made to belive the obvious fact is that David created the xenomorph. But if it is so and it is obvious for most, what fun would have the continuation of the story? It has to bring a twist.

I have no idea what are the plans of Ridley Scott but it is hard to believe he intended David as the creator of the xenomorph as seen in Alien. Even if he says so today, it is because he does not want to give away the plot of the next movie. He is not senile as some actionmoviegoers said.

Our friend joylitt must be right: the eggs from the derelict come from the creature that burst from the Space Jockey. I was always thinking that first were the eggs in the hold and one of them lead to a facehugger incident, as it happened to Kane. 

Well, the story of the Space Jockey has been changed. Everyone can see that it’s a skeleton (or fossil) but they changed it into being a space suit. I hope they won’t change the story on LV-223, about the outbreak and an engineer leaving with the cargo hold filled with xeno-eggs (himself infected).

That was what Prometheus was all about. They created us and experimented in the facilities on LV-223. They created the black goo, they created us and they created the xenomorph.

joylitt It seems that David is convinced that no one understands the lonely perfection of his dreams and he is superior to humans, the next visionair.

He cleansed planet 4 without remorse.

He entered with the gods into valhalla. 

I don't know why he sent the reports from Advent. For validation? He is really beyond repair.

daliens I mean validation for his acts. And recognition that he is at least equal or superior to his creator.

joylitt everything is possible with David. 

I some point I think he imagined how interesting would have been to have Peter Weyland instead of Shaw for his experiments.

@daliens if whatever burst out of the space jockeys chest created the eggs, then why was there a mist over the eggs that reacted when broken, like some kind of protection or maybe temperature control, like an incubator.

Spaced-Out I don't have the answer, it's just a theory. But if you read the novelization of Covenant,  there was a strong stench of ammonia in the basement where the eggs were.

When I googled ammonia I found the following definition:

"Anhydrous ammonia gas is lighter than air and will rise, so that generally it dissipates and does not settle in low-lying areas. However, in the presence of moisture (such as high relative humidity), the liquefied anhydrous ammonia gas forms vapors that are heavier than air."

So it may be a layer of liquefied anhydrous ammonia. I think they used this special effect back then because it was cool, but mentioning ammonia in Covenant may be more than a coincidence.

i think this Topic Touches upon the Problem with the Franchise but also the Brilliance... is that everyone has there own likes/dislikes

The whole Space Jockey/Derelict/Eggs and what happened is something that has constantly evolved over time.

Originally the Pilot was Stuck to the Chair, part of the Chair...

I think HR Giger gave us the clearest visions and they should have stuck with his ideas he illustrated

You will have to compare both images...

A) Clearly if the Space Jockey had Legs then this Arrow is the only place they would fit, if we assume they are Bi-Pedal and have similar Proportions to a Human and Joints. Then A is the logical path the Legs would take.. But we can ignore this a bit as the Actual Space Jockey Prop has slightly wider Proportions (The Chair Length).

B) We can see what looks like a Dome around the Space Jockey like its some kind of Glass, or maybe some Energy Field?  But it could look like a Space Helmet.  Of not too is the Chair Connects Directly to the Helmet/Skull and so which sounds more viable?  Chairs Mechanical Pipes connect to a Space Helmet or to a Organisms Skull?

C) The Hose is Clearly a Mechanical/Synthetic Pipe that connects the Snout to the Lower Rib Area and connects to what looks like a none Skeletal Component.

D) The Arms do not look like a Skeleton and this is more evident on the actual Prop, and it has these like connected wires/tubes that are connected to the Chair, again as with B) would this fit more with a Suit or a Skeleton?

E) The Rib-cage and Eyes and Mouth areas are the only real part of the Space Jockey that resemble a Skeleton, this more so in the actual Prop while other parts do not look or fit with how a Skeleton would appear, unless the Organism was really bulky but still those Arms if they are Bone are still not the shape you would expect for any kind of Skeleton, but could well fit with being a Space Suit.

It was not long after Alien and so its been not something NEW (i.e after Alien 3/Alien R) where Ridley Scott had confirmed the Space Jockey was a Space Suit.

Prometheus shows us the Engineers Technology/suits are Part Organic and Mechanical and are attached to their Bodies, and i have made analogies before to showcase they could be part living/grown Material and seem to have a more Silicone/Rubber kind of Texture/Aesthetic

Here is a Cactus, both alive and Dead and we can see if we look at the Dark Grey Rubbery Space Jockey Suits in Prometheus/Alien Covenant and then look at the Skeletal looking one from Alien.  Then look at the Cactus and i think we can kind of see a similar thing.

The flaw here is IF the Space Jockey is now up to 10 years old, how come it has colored different than the supposed 2000 year old Engineer Bodies in Prometheus?

So my Previous post was to try and show how the Space Jockey is not a Skeleton which some fans still want it to be.. I think a Problem next is the size, but this is just RS with some Flawed Camera work.  As the Space Jockey was supposed to be 26ft tall, he used Child Actors in Space Suits when the Nostomo crew enter the Chamber, but then he uses the Adults up close... This gave the illusion of a 21ft Space Jockey that then became clearly 13-15ft Tops.

When working on the Prequel that became Prometheus the Engineers where supposed to be 15ft, then revised to 12ft and Finally 9-10ft tall but we could all see due to again RS and hoping to create a illusion that never worked... and all we got was 7.5ft tall Engineers.

In Hindsight some Game of Thrones or LOTR/Hobbit special effects should have been used to make Ian Whyte actually look more closer to 10ft tall.

Going to what we have now, as far as the Space Jockey Event, RS had cleared it up when working on Prometheus and after and he said the event happened a few hundred years within the time of the Outbreak that killed all those Engineers 2000 years ago and so 1800-2200 Ball Park.

He also said the Derelict did not get very far from where it departed.

So all the Clues are it left LV-223 but only got as far as LV-426, and when we look at the Chest Busted Engineers in Cryo-Pods in Prometheus then it looks more likely the Space Jockey had also Went into Lock Down after the Outbreak.

Something Evolved from the Outbreak and infected the other Engineers in the Juggernaught, but it failed to infect the last surviving one.. who was awoken some 2000 years after.

His brothers not so lucky... it would thus Logically appear that the Space Jockey had awoken a few hundred years after and went to resume his mission but then realized he was infected and tried to Quarantine the Cargo on LV-426

But its never been Spoon Fed Explained.. apart from.

*Event was within few hundred years of LV-223 Outbreak

*Derelict/Space Jockey had set off on his mission but did not get far.

*Space Jockey was infected by his Cargo, which Evolved.

*Then attempted to land the Cargo on near by LV-426 but got Chest Busted during his Final Landing sequence. And so the Ship had intended to land where it lay in ALIEN.

ALL OF THIS...

is now up in the air, with the Changes Alien Covenant gave us, RS/FOX felt fans was not interested in the whole Engineers, Gods, Creation Arc and wanted Xenomorphs and Xenomorph Answers.

They felt Fans was not so interesting in the Prometheus Characters and following Dr Shaw and her Journey/Story.  But RS was a massive Fan of the DAVID Character and the Themes/Hubris of Creating Life in your own Image to Serve you and see this creation Rebel.

And so he felt the whole WHAT IF David created the Xenomorph by using the Engineers attempted Bio-Weapon which they could not contain or control.. and use this Bio Weapon upon the Engineers themselves and then Create from this something more PERFECT than the Deacon the Engineers had attempted to create.

I was ok with this... i was however concerned about the Space Jockey being a Human or Synthetic...

But with RS giving us some insight into Alien Awakening (working Title) there is the potential for the Space Jockey to be a Engineer or related being.

The Next movie is looking more likely we will arrive in the AFTERMATH of David and the Covenant ships journey to Origae-6 much like how Alien Covenant we arrived at the AFTERMATH of David and Shaws journey to Paradise.

This now means unless they do another U-Turn that the Derelict well at least the Eggs on the Derelict are there for Up to 10 YEARS give or take.

BigDave - I always figured the legs would go down like he was in a recliner, but looking at other pictures, it's looking more like there is only an upper half of the body.

Unfortunately I think that he might be going into a crappy direction (that David created the Xenos). That route would suck and I refuse to accept it, I would rather make up my own image if that is the case. Having David re-creating it would be no problem (like how you find a recipe for a pie and then you make your own version so to speak), that would be more interesting. If Ridley will have something to do with the script that is what we might get, keep him far away from the writing process. Scott should keep his AI-fetish to himself.

“In time, in a future film/s, he will likely discover that his creations aren't original, just his own take on what the Engineers already new, and just as sung in the 'Gods Arising to Valhalla' and that Ozymandias poem he raves on about, his creations will turn against him, destroying their creator.” 

This is what I hope will happen, imagine how disappointed he will get (if androids can be disappointed). Hopefully they will not make him react emotionally because being an android he would react more like in a logic way, like a computer program (if this problem arises then do X). I don’t want David to be written like a human, maybe with human traits but still be an android if that makes sense.

“But again FOX/RS could again change things to indeed show us David just Re-created it.”

Hopefully this, there were already too many things in AC that were not good.

As far as rebellion and so on, I wouldn’t mind if David dies in the end of the prequels. Maybe an Engineer kills him because he realizes that the AI and humans can be dangerous. They got to keep it in a way that makes sense (not like in Prometheus). Engineers can be interesting, they just got to make sense. Don't make David the original creator of the Xenos, that would be so lame and a huge disappointment.

Where the franchise is heading now shows both the brilliance and the flaws of Ridley Scott's creativity as BigDave stated. 

When RS made that comment in the interview, "David as a creator is much more interesting" he could either be deliberately throwing us off the story of any upcoming titles to get us talking about the next installment. Brilliant marketing if that was the intention. However, RS has a pretty big habit of publicly stating one ting about a film then going in a different direction. 

It has been firmly established in lore that the derelict craft in Alien was thousands of years old, this was written in the novelization and commented on in the Alien Special Edition DVD extras. The eggs when discovered by Kane, if I remember correctly (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), where stated to appear to look like they've been there a long time (they were dormant). 

Another thing I want to point out is when i went through the Prometheus extras earlier today, I discovered that Peter Welyand knew about the distress signal from LV 426 before the Prometheus mission began, further implying the advanced age of the derelict craft. 

The chances are better than good that the David-8 revelation is a curve ball, or just simply referecing David-8 as the creator (or just re-discovering) of Protomorphs, not the more bio-mechanical looking Xenomorphs. 

This was in the Weyland Files on the Prometheus DVD extras (written 14 January 2090);

"As fate would have it, Shaw and Holloway's interest in Zeta II Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division's own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptible signal emanating from of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Holloway, which target LV 223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of origin could actually be the moon LV 426.

Per standard procedure, we will embed a David-8 unit with the crew. And he will programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on LV 223. But only David will know about LV 426 and will ensure that the rest of the crew - including Meredith - learn nothing about the transmission we've recently discovered until the time is right."

Lets break this down a bit, assuming Sir Ridley Scott will stick with this in any upcoming movie/s. 

1) Only Peter Weyland and David-8 knew of the signal from LV 426

2) Peter Weyland, in the Prometheus film, was really of advanced age and died at the end of the movie, leaving only David-8 who knew of the LV 426 signal

3) The files also state that "he (David-8) will be programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on LV 223" This explains his actions on the film, covertly infecting Holloway with the black goo

4) The fact the Peter Weyland dies in Prometheus explains why Weyland Corp (later Weyland Yutani) went ahead with the terraforming of LV 426, as no one else knew about the signal

5) The only knowledge of LV 426 is limited to that there is an alien signal from that region, which would explain why David has yet to return to the Zeta II Reticuli system

The story from the video game Alien: Isolation is considered canon, during the which the one of the missions involves returning to the LV 426 derelict craft and turning off the distress beacon in the ship. Alien: Isolation occurs 15 years after the events on board the Nostromo. 

BigDave I just read the early Logan script and I must tell you, I get the feeling Logan doesn't even know or care what a xenomorph looks like, and I even doubt that he ever watched Alien or Prometheus. So why even worrying about the size of the Engineers or if the prequels make any sense at all? I even feel like awarding Alien Covenant a couple of extra points for trying so hard and not becoming an even worse movie. Such a shitty screenplay. I really have to say poor poor Ridley Scott!! I mean, I haven't ever read a script with so little description and so poorly developed characters! (Billy Cudrup, did you read how much of a bigger asshole you were in this draft?) It is all so vague in every sci-fi aspect that I can finally understand why the ship ended up looking so generic. Instead of creating suspense, it would just spell it out. Literally one line reads: "It's eerie, suspenseful". And what about those nondescript "little eggs", and the neomorphs attacking and not hurting anybody, a xenomorph getting killed even faster than in the movie. And How about the lovebirds taking their "morning shower". Are you kidding me??. was this written by a 15 year old? Where is the mythology about the engineers? Actually it seems the best parts of the movie have been improvised or happened only because what is on the script has been re arranged in a different fashion. Please everybody involved in that script go back to school!

If David isn't the creator of the Xenomorph than the narrative started in Prometheus will fall a part. The prequels would serve no point than to expand on the Space Jockey/Engineers and everyone's journey thus far would be truly pointless. Prometheus begun with finding our creators and Covenant is about creation and obviously the Awakening will be about destruction. David being the creator makes sense. The synthetics have always been background characters but little did we know that they serve an integral role. The derelict craft was estimated to over 2000 years old by space truckers that assumed the Space Jockey was an exoskeleton as opposed to a suit. I know that it's been this way since forever but it's not like it's actually been firmly cemented how old the derelict was outside of comics (not canon) and ADFs novels (also not canon). The Engineers did create/found something related to the Xenomorph but what they found was an ancestor not what David creates. Just look at the mural, it is obviously a Deacon shape and the facehuggers aren't the ones from the original. David found the blueprints and modified their bioweapon. That's my two cents.

I think he needs to go back to basics and remember why he is here. the problem I think is that RS and fox will have had a budget necessary for ridley to show case everything in mind and after the review and feedback from Prometheus theyv said ''HELL NO'' so hes had to change the way he tells the story.

@drucea

Indeed this is what it looked like your correct, it made more sense this way, but the problem would be the Space Jockey would have to have Tiny Legs.  Hence why if the Proportions are like Typical Human then the only place the Legs would fit would be where the Arrow was.

But this is only the concept work, the actual Prop the area where you drawn you Stick Man's Legs is longer and so yes this Logically was where the legs would go..   My point was that when HR Giger did the Concept work it was as if the Pilot simply had no Legs at all.

@AshN117

I made a reply earlier must never had came up as the Site was suffering with Overload Issues earlier... and so my reply was indeed that the Weyland Viral site for Prometheus also indeed showed the company was aware of LV-426 some time before Prometheus.

Off course all this and what you put is now at contradiction with where Alien Covenant is going... again who knows what route they would take as they could U-Turn again.. but i think IF and ONCE  Ridley Scott/FOX finish the prequels then its only what the movies show that would be Canon and so if they go the route that contradicts the Prometheus Viral Sites and other Extras, then we have to accept these are removed from Canon.

so its seems Logan was brought in to make a Prequel to Alien rather than a Sequel to Prometheus, it appears then that his draft was even more a Step Away from Prometheus and a Step towards ALIEN.

It appears then that FOX/RS must have got Logan and Harper do go back and introduce more Prometheus Elements.

so Logans Draft is thus maybe the Movie the Prometheus Haters and Fanboys would have wanted to see LOL

Regarding the blue mist in/under the Derelict which covered the eggs, I recall reading that they were using lasers next door to the studio they were working on Alien and the Alien team thought they looked cool so they borrowed one for their movie. I don't think there was any plan for that mist originally as far as I know.

 auximenes that's what I recall too. That's why everybody prefers to believe the eggs were cargo sealed by the blue mist after loading. But at the same time the blue mist may be the result of the eggs themselves, as a self preservation method.

Lawrence of Arabia Is it reasonable to believe the writers would avoid the obvious course of events as set by Covenant? If they will continue on that storyline probably only the members of this forum and few others will go to see the movie.

The fact that David created the Protomorph does not necessarily means that he will create the xenomorph we see in Alien. My idea was that in Covenant we were shown the xenomorph is indeed created by biological and genetic engineering and meant as a weapon. However its own reproductive cycle does seem very ancient and by its biomechanical look the xenomorph was created within a civilization that possess biomechanical technology. 

How do you think David may come to the xenomorph with only 2 facehuggers he brought on board the Covenant? It seems he needs more than cross breeding to get past the Protomorph design. Especially now when he doesn't have any pathogen. 

I don't believe Ridley Scott would go further into David as the creator of the xenomorph only to justify his experiments from Covenant. I know I would like Covenant even more if not David is the father of the xenomorph. Let's wait for the narrative to be completed to see if it will fall apart or not.

For me it would be a lame idea to find out that David is the Space Jockey. If it will be so the whole alien universe and the franchise will fall apart.

daliens

This idea that Ridley deliberately puts people of the scent is not true I think he speculates (The Beast is cooked) when asked a question. He hypotheses (The Jockey incident is contemporaneous within a few hundred years of LV223 break out) when asked a question given his current thinking.

However when he is promoting a movie he is about to shoot or starts to shoot he does not lay a false trail. In retrospect everything he has said abut Covenant from autumn of 15 to summer 17 is actually in the movie. (the Deacon is the fore runner, Shaw in a way, mortality verse immortality, David created the protomorph).

What I sense is a lot of people do not like the outcomes and do not like where its going and so they believe the next one will put those things right for what they want.

Do I believe the next movie will have a Xeno army, I do not have a view, but I believe when Ridley said they will get away from the control of A I I believed him.

Michelle Johnston in my opinion the fact that xenos will get away from the control of AI was present even at the end of Covenant, when the Protomorph attacked the image of David on the surveillance monitor. 

It is clear that I want the xenomorph to be more than David can create through cross breeding and the derelict pilot to be an engineer or even an ancient being from engineers' mythology.  I don't know why I get this feeling of fake xeno if they want to give all the credit to David. Maybe it's my lack of faith in machines. 

I think this is just another direction they had taken that has ruffled the feathers of Alien and Aliens fans...  some was disappointed and some evern upset at Prometheus showing us the whole Engineers as Space Jockey/Creators Curve-ball, i can see how David creating the Xenomorph is also something that some are not keen on.

Right now it does seem RS has been heading towards the Xenomorph being Davids Creation, and i think RS has come under fire for changing this direction to this from Alien/Aliens fans and even Prometheus fans... and also Prometheus fans for basically changing what a Prometheus 2 would have been to become a more Alien/Aliens Friendly Fanbase Flick.. of getting back to the Xenomorph Origins in a more direct kind of way.

So when Faced with having to answer the Space Jockey and Derelict in a more Direct and Chronological way so no Flash-backs it then opened the event to be something set AFTER Prometheus for Certain and Ridley Scott just felt the whole Creation vs Creator and then Sub-create themselves Arc of David is something he wanted to carry over from Prometheus.

The Question now is does RS stick to his Guns?

Or does the influence of the Fans, that made FOX/RS reconsider and give the Fans Aliens... does FOX/RS now take into acount these Fans again and Change that David created the Xenomorph?  There are some fans who are not even pleased at all with the Movie being around the Engineers, or David or Dr Shaw.. and they still did not get the movie they wanted as it was based around David.

I just hope FOX does not think that brushing David under the carpet, and then Spoon Feed in a Xenomorph Queen birthed from Daniels is the way forwards... i hope not.

There is no worry about the Space Jockey being a Human/Synthetic as we are getting the Engineers returning in part and so i think its more likely these Engineers discover Davids creation and decide to take the Eggs for themselves.

We still have not yet reached the Bio-Mechanical Atheistic of Alien/Aliens and so it will be interested if RS goes about to Evolve the Xenomorph from Alien Covenant to become more closer to the one in ALIEN and how RS intends to show this.

This answer is a bit late but what ever

Hopefully David just created the Protomorph. Maybe this can lessen the damage now that they hinted that David created the Xeno in Alien Covenant.

“I don't believe Ridley Scott would go further into David as the creator of the xenomorph only to justify his experiments from Covenant.”

I am not so sure about that. Scott seems to put is interest primary in the AI so there is a risk that it will be the case, however that is a direction that I will point finger at so to speak because to me that direction is rotten.  Hopefully there are enough alien fans that agree with me on this one. David shouldn’t be the creator of the Xeno, to me that would just be wrong.

David shouldn’t be the space Jockey. I would like it to be either an Engineer or a distant relative to the Engineers.

Let the synthetics play a more distant role but don’t put them in the foreground, leave that to more robot-centered SF movies.

I won’t be mad if the SJ is an Engineer or a distant relative to the Engineers if they will make the Engineers interesting but they got to make them a lot better than they have done this far. They were a letdown in Prometheus so they shouldn’t be the same as the SJ right now but if they will make them more interesting then I wouldn’t mind the SJ being an Engineer.

“Right now it does seem RS has been heading towards the Xenomorph being Davids Creation, and i think RS has come under fire for changing this direction to this from Alien/Aliens fans and even Prometheus fans...” (Big Dave)

Can’t just someone tell him that this is a really bad idea? Hopefully someone can make him change his mind. This is a reason why he should direct and not be involved in the story like they said in a AVP podcast.

David is an interesting character but he shouldn’t be the main focus, the humans should be. I don’t want another movie that is mainly about the AI at the expense of human characters. This is one of the things that I have a problem with when it comes to Covenant.

“There is no worry about the Space Jockey being a Human/Synthetic as we are getting the Engineers returning in part and so i think its more likely these Engineers discover Davids creation and decide to take the Eggs for themselves.“ (Big Dave)

This could maybe lessen David’s involvement with the creation of the Xenos, that would be a good thing. As far as the mechanical part of the Xeno maybe that could be something that the Engineers added to make it more able to endure different climates if they decide to use it as a bio-weapon?