Questions and Answers

So a Queen Xenomorph is canon (as depicting in Aliens, A3 & AR) so whether we like it or not, it is part of the primary life cycle of the species.

But is eggmorphing still a possible alternate life cycle mode?? This is a question that will bring a lot of closure to certain aspects of the franchise? 

I think that because egg morphing has only been seen in the directors cut of Alien that is canonicity is open to debate, but not certain. Are deleted and alternate scenes canon? What is the canon version of each movie?

Heres a question, let's see what people believe to be the answer and why - In Alien Covenants opening scene David ask Peter Weyland "Who created you?"...

Heres a question, let's see what people believe to be the answer and why - In Alien Covenants opening scene David ask Peter Weyland "Who created you?".......I suppose Peter Weyland did not like answer he discovered on LV-223 as The Engineers?

What is the canon version of each movie?

The Director's Cut/Special Edition Cuts.

Why did the Engineers create humanity?

Because they could.

Why do the Engineers hate humanity and wish to wipe us off the board?

Because humanity has gotten too big for their britches, too big for even the Engineers to handle so the only recourse with a rebellious creation is to 'retire' it. We are a cruel species, filled with incompetence and hubris as epitomized by the crew of the Prometheus.

Did the Engineers create the Deacon?

I believe the mural is proof of this as Steve Messing, the guy who created the mural, states that the depiction is of the Deacon and that it is the ancestor to the Xenomorph in the Furious Gods documentary.

What I enjoy about the Alien franchise is it's ambiguity, the countless possibilities and implied meanings. I'm glad that Lovecraftian element is still prevalent because it gives us as fans something to discuss as we wait for further installments. :)

As to the Michael Bishop question left in Alien 3, in the Weyland-Yutani Report they specify that he is indeed human and that in his death his biggest regret was not being able to convince Ripley. I know that the Weyland Yutani Report isn't exactly definitive and that it is still up to debate but I believe this is as close to an answer we'll get.

Interesting, that both Cerulean Blue and Lawrence of Arabia believe that the Engineers created humankind, when at best I would say it is open to debate, despite my own opinions that they did not (with supporting evidence in both Prometheus and Alien: Covenant).

I like LOA's juxtaposition of Holloway's wisecrack remark as evidence to support the case of Engineers creating humanity, it reminds me of how some fans vehemently defend the supposed 'fact' that the Space Jockey is millions of years old, based solely on Dallas statement, and as such feels just as empty.

As for canon, I have heard many argue the theatrical release is the only canon. And regards the W-Y report, is canonicity standing is questionable at best. Not too long ago we had a member who would have argued to their dying breath that the W-Y report was the word of god itself, but being that is sourced by the fans and not the creators of this franchise should be reason enough to question its authority, as this thread will no doubt prove in time. 

The Deacons presence in the mural is a good example of irrefutable in-universe proof, a definitive answer that shows the Deacon and other 'Morphs' are what will result from exposure to the Black Pathogen. The Mural was designed to specifically show this, as evidenced by the inclusion of Facehuggers within its design - its a visual representation of "This shit makes Xenomorphs!"

Interesting, that both Cerulean Blue and Lawrence of Arabia believe that the Engineers created humankind, when at best I would say it is open to debate, despite my own opinions that they did not (with supporting evidence in both Prometheus and Alien: Covenant).

@Gavin - I think the ambiguity is the beauty of Prometheus & Alien Covenant.  I love how Sir Ridley allows us to 'choose' what we believe to be true, in most instances.  I am of the opinion I have not yet gotten any definitive answers regarding anything.  That is why I am here & love hearing the alternative ideas.  Honestly, I am personally always an Engineer fan, so I want to get more of the story in regard to their specific relationship with humanity.  I am really hoping we will, soon.  Thanks again for your post!

Thank you for such a well written topic Gavin.

I agree with your takes on debatable concepts such as who the Engineers created, the age of the Space Jockey, and certainly what the mural on LV-223 communicates. Good summary on that.

Question for IRaptus:

Is this Daniels (after David had his way with her) facing Ripley?

where canon is concerned I believe its what is officially authorised by fox. for example. the weyland files on the blu ray disc set. now they r not included in the film but the fact that fox included these would suggest they are factual ingredients to the backstory so canon. but even this brings about some issues as the AC novelisation changes certain aspects of the movie so can it be considered canon? I would say directors cuts r canon especially the chamber scene in alien. u have to look at the reason behind its exclusion and when u see the directors cut its obvious they made the right choice but to me its still canon as fox have released it and it was the original concept for the creators of the franchise. this in no way means that the queen is out of place or shouldn't be there.

the main issues I have now is that fox and RS just don't seem to be sticking to one path and put it best, just seem to be making this stuff up as they go along. its all over the place just now. I don't need everything spelled out for me but I shouldn't have to go buy a book to fill in the gaps of a movie either.

the whole point of the prequels was to address the questions

who is the big guy in the chair?

why r the eggs there?

whats the connection between the big guy and the eggs?

though answers r coming, the manner in which their being delivered isn't as well done as expected. both movies have been torn to pieces by fans, tons of contradictions and plots that just don't make sense. but is it more us the fans that r making mountains out of mole hills? r we over analysing the movies to find a path to a possible conclusion that makes sense before wev seen the climax of the prequels? its clear to me that the engineers created mankind yet theres the discussion that a higher power is involved and that in actual fact they created both engineer and humans, yet theres no evidence within the 2 movies there is a higher power. don't get me wrong id love there to be but whats the point, we r never going to get to see them on screen just like we haven't gotten anything from the engineers onscreen except them getting killed and they were the whole bloody point of the prequels.

truth is that for whatever answers r within the 2 movies have been so badly presented so far their either missed or so loosely shown that their open to interpretation that even when they directly tie the franchise up there will be a large number of fans still scratching their heads asking the same questions imo.  

ali81

I hope that the answers are not that:

1. the big guy in the chair is David, 2. he created the eggs 3. he transported them as a weapon.

red0guy

totally agree. if that ends up happening then ill just disregard the prequel series except Prometheus. its lazy imo. the derelict scene would never be the same for me.

This is a very good topic since the prequels have so many questions to them and they allow the fans to interpret them with their own ideas.  This could be considered a bad thing because the movie could be interpreted wrongly, but it could also be considered a good thing since it keeps interest in the movies.  After watching the movies, it seems like it was done on purpose (probably to keep people interested in the movies).  I would have to say this is something unique to the Alien franchise.  It was kind of the same in the original Alien.  We were learning of the creature as we watched the movie.  Alien created tons of questions, yet I would have to say that the prequels by far pass any of the other 4 main Alien movies in terms of openendedness.

Ok, so my biggest question I wish was answered...

I feel like we should know more about the Engineers.  I think the Engineers are a big question that nobody can even impose much of their own thoughts onto.  Hopefully this would be answered in Alien:Awakening.

Another question I have is related to Androids + Emotions.  The only reason we actually know Androids have emotions is from the marketing materials for Prometheus and Alien: Covenant.  I don't know in any of the original four that androids were stated to actually have emotions.  Mimicing emotions doesn't count either.  I have gotten into multiple big debates over this topic.  They always end with me taking my side and the other person taking there side.  We both disagree with what the other says.

@ Gavin Also, I also safely assumed that the Engineers created mankind.  Now, this idea NEEDS to be revisted in Alien: Awakening, even just for a brief minute, to confirm this assumption because as you say, we don't know as a solid fact.  All we have is Shaw's idea of what the Engineers did and I think her thoughts on that are biased because she thought the Engineers created us before she landed on the planet.

Regardless who the Space Jockey is, the fans have had over 30 years to enjoy the complete mystery of Alien.  Honestly, after seeing Alien a few times, it loses a lot of it's scariness and feeling because we all know what is going to happen.  We all come to this forum to even talk about it and learn about it.  We know that movie.  Any reawakening of the franchise is a good thing since the original four happened so long ago.  Otherwise, we, the fans, may just be the only people who keep rewatching the Alien series.

I feel like we should know more about the Engineers.  I think the Engineers are a big question that nobody can even impose much of their own thoughts onto.  Hopefully this would be answered in Alien:Awakening.

@ I Moon Girl - YES, YES, YES!!!!

"but I shouldn't have to go buy a book to fill in the gaps of a movie either"

Amen ali81. 

@ali81

Your hitting the Nail on the head there, the Franchise Evolves with each movie, things are changed that then impact the way we interpret other movies, what appeared to be clues/answers now become not so clues/answers.  Once RS has Finally reached the Back Door to ALIEN i feel then finally we can start to make sense of what is more Canon and what is not.

There are many Big Questions, and the way they are handled means we dont have any real 100% Bullet Proof Answers on-screen.....

The Original Ideas, and Foundations have changed with each movie, RS had answered who the Engineers are and what the Space Jockey Event was, but those comments he made 5 years ago are not cast into doubt with the revelations and clues that Alien Covenant Presented.

The EVOLUTION of the SPACE JOCKEY was something i was going to make a Topic about a while ago.

And i had covered a number of times, the Inception of the Idea came from Star-Beast where our Giant Skeletal remains was that of a Giant Race who stumbled upon the Spores/Eggs and attempted to take them back to their Ship for Study but fell Victim to the Organism and set off a SOS.

Alien Evolved this idea, because we got the Space Jockey and what a ENIGMA he was, intended as a 27ft Tall Giant, which actually ended up being a 13-15ft Tall being, all we knew about the Space Jockey was that he was the Pilot of that Derelict Ship and got infected with his Cargo....  The Question still remained regarding how he obtained the Cargo and what Relationship did he have... was he a Race who discovered and attempted to transport the Eggs... much like how the Giant Beings from Star-beast stumbled upon them in a Temple?

However the Xenomorph Aesthetically was similar to the Derelict Ship, this surely was no Coincidence, and so indeed there was a connection and RS many years ago, had confirmed the Derelict was a Bomber its Cargo Biological Warfare.    The Answers  was loosely there, RS had then confirmed the purpose and connections and more so he actually explained them after Prometheus...   A movie which had the Answers but in a way that was not Spoon Fed.

Prometheus explored the Curve-ball more that the Space Jockey was a Alien Race who created Mankind or indeed that Mankind was the result of their Genetic Material, but for some this was a disappointment.. No Longer was the Space Jockey a Giant Enigma...  it was now a Bald 7.5ft Humanoid who created Mankind and Hated us.

But that answer is ambiguous and evolving in itself, the clues given by RS over the years prior to Alien Covenant, seemed to be placing this Race as Fallen Angels, which could mean they are just a bunch of Evil SOB's or indeed that they could be a Rebellious/Fallen Faction of a Ancient Race.

A lot of fans got disappointed in the whole Engineers Arc... having it that these beings had been going around the Galaxy creating/evolving life in their own image, and then getting fed up and creating something else to destroy their creations with.... for a number of fans the ENGINEERS Sadly are in no way as Enigmatic as that Giant Space Jockey.

Alien Covenant had again thrown a few Curve-balls, those Engineers now appearing to be even Smaller and Less Godlike.. Plus Ultimately David creates the Xenomorph by using and experimenting with the Bio-Weapon created on LV-223

But it leaves the Door open to explore something more Sinister as far as the Agenda and Purpose of the Engineers.

For those in FEAR that David will become the Space Jockey or another Synthetic or a Human, FEAR not, RS surely has to take on board what the fans have said, and clearly he must realize the Size Difference, The Space Jockey Chair was 16ft long and thus the Space Jockey was 13-15ft tall... a Height which the Engineers were supposed to be at the inception of that concept.

It looks like it logically we have to eventually introduce us to a Race above the Engineers (dont expect Elephantine ones) who will Ultimately end up with Davids Cargo on one of their Ships, and would be heading to LV-223 before the Incident (for what reason is open for debate) or the ship would be leaving LV-223 with Davids Creation (for which reason is open for debate).

So fear not... i dont think David will be the Space Jockey, i feel that some Race related to the Engineers will take a interest in Davids Creation and attempt to further Evolve it but become FOUL to it.

I much preferred the prospects opened up by Prometheus as to the engineers. the thought of them being a split civilisation, warring factions struggling for power or even a revolution long past interested me more than the homicidal android. still a possibility that this could be the case but I highly doubt it. potential lost imo. for me, id rather RS focused awakening on the engineers rather than david. theres years between david taking the covenant and any human interaction so why not take the opportunity to focus more on them? give us a backstory and hint at their connection to the xeno then finish up with a 4th film where we now have a human expedition reach origae 6, the engineers after david, and david having had time to create his perfect organism?

The SJ cannot be David. He doesn't need a suit and the suit doesn't fit him.

By the way it looks, the SJ is not a suit either. It's more plausible that the engineers' suits were designed to imitate the SJ.

Can anyone explain how the eggs were loaded on the Juggernaut?

daliens, so many relevant questions, doubt wel get the answers

Well David could load those Eggs LOL

Maybe the Engineers with their Space Suits could load the Eggs, but then Kane was wearing his and the Xenomorph Egg was activated after he came close.... so who knows... 

HR Giger had the right idea, as his idea was the Derelict well the Egg Silo/Cargo Hold Actually Produced the Eggs like some kind of Egg Laying Farm/Factory.  But Alas...

daliens

Here is a totally ridiculous scenario (I hope it is anyway). What if the Engineers are themselves an AI, and David finds a way to hack them. Then like the David to Walter upgrade theory, David ends up uploading his consciousness into the original SJ.....

RIOT!!!

I hate myself for even suggesting this as a possibility lol

Wow! What a fantastic thread. I also hope Awakening would provide more visuals of the engineers. Not a baked city of twisted faceless corpses, but a living engineer who is unequivocally a space traveler. It seems their motivations could be 'humanish’ in nature. So we are pulled into thinking they are just like us. Someone or something which could be reasoned with. But then paired with those aspects so totally unlike us, hinted and inferred which make engineers mysterious, and captivating. I am torn. I want a backstory, because humans are innately curious. But honestly, to do the engineer and a possible grandparent race a sufficient backstory to do that story justice...would be way beyond the scope of one film. So what tiny morsels of backstory would be most mystery inducing? What would create the highest impact? In a subtle and elegantly executed way. The most expansive possible history finally revealed in a brief cathartic few scenes.

That is what I wonder. What can be imagined? An immense structure on an ancient Earth? A conversation between an engineer and something...else? A bit of verbal exposition by David or a human character? I don’t know what it would be. But I am fairly sure that type of scene would be my favorite. It could be the most memorable scene in the whole film. 

IRaptus

Ridley Scott said the focus will be on AI.

Well , the engineers from LV 223 sure looked more artificial than those from planet 4 and the engineer head found in Prometheus reminded me of the head of Bishop in Alien 3. So it is not an impossible theory. And if they are AI and the Deacon was born from one of them, David should be more careful with the little facehuggers. By the way, didn't he swallowed 3 embryos in the novelization? In the film he only regurgitated 2.

BigDave

It's kind of hard to imagine David loading all those eggs. He is like a God now and gods don't do physical work.  

Another possibility that came to my mind is a parallel between the Juggernaut and the Covenant, the thousands of  eggs being the alien colonists looking for a hospitable new planet. In this case the eggs would be loaded by the alien race itself. Somehow the SJ did not follow the rules and looked into the hold. Curiosity killed the cat.

That's one of the things I like about Ridley Scott: nothing is impossible. 

This is the interesting thing, because they can still change things and what ever the True Meaning, Purpose and Agenda for the Engineers can be changed, maybe even a Curve-Ball thrown out?

The Engineers.... well those on LV-223 could indeed be different to those on Planet 4, these Albino Larger Engineers could be a Version that had Evolved themselves to be this way, they could even be Created Clones created much like Weyland had done with the Creation of David... but the Engineers are not Synthetic and so would be more like Replicants in this case.

I think we may have to accept that David created the Xenomorph, but as we saw in AC the various experiments David conducted and the various outcomes of the Black Goo in Prometheus... never mind the Concept works or how Fire and Stone explored the Black Goo...  The Xenomorph is just One Application of the Black Goo (well Engineered result of it)..   So this still means potential for other applications of the Black Goo and why and where did this stuff come from.

The Black Goo say could be like Gunpowder.... and so the Xenomorph could merely be just like the Shotgun Cartridge, and Fire-works another application.   I do wonder if the whole History of where the Black Goo was obtained/created will now be a Mystery that RS/FOX will attempt to keep.

We cant be sure, what they will change as it appears they constantly change and evolve elements of the Franchise as far as Plots and History etc.   We cant rule out them doing a U-TURN as far as David Creating the Xenomorphs on the Derelict... because FOX/RS have changed their minds and ideas quite a lot over the years.

Question:

Why did the cartidges look like cartidges in Prometheus, but looked liked egg sacs in Alien? Isn't it the same ship? And in Alien the crew sees an Engineer in the saddle of the alien ship, but dead from a hole in his chest. But in Prometheus, that Engineer was supposedly the only live one and he escaped the crash of his ship (which I assume is the one discovered in Alien years later) and he was killed by the alien birthed by the crew member in their ship. No?

It’s not the same ship. It’s not even the same world. The cartridges in Prometheus are weapons of mass destruction. The eggs in Alien are generally believed to be laid by a Queen, although eggs may also be created through bodily transformation of an infected host.

As for the original question, something I learned recently which is clearly an unambiguous fact is that Lambert is transgender! Read the wall screen notes carefully in Ripley’s court martial and you will find that she was gender reassigned at birth. Therein lies a mystery, though: why?

Maybe you saw this: https://lwlies.com/articles/alien-gender-politics-ellen-ripley-joan-lambert/

I hope you don't mind me asking questons, but I saw the first movied in 1979 and no one else I knew wanted to. I have been hooked ever since and my wife is about to divorce me. The first thiing that struck me about the movie was that the surper structure looked very female, the mother ship was called Mother, and all the men got killed. And the eggs, gestation in human host, etc.

So like others I was confused by Prometheus and Covenant. Even in those the female is the one who survives after all the men die (until David gets his way)-who is a "male" artificial.

Re: Engineers. They look like the crowd that got infected by David from the ship with the pathogen. So they are so called Gods because of the large stone sculptures around? Mad them in his image?

Re: Aliens. I know it was written before Prometheus, but why didn't the staff grilling Ripley even know about the aliens? Their founder just got lost in space? "In over 400 recorded worlds" and they didnt have Prometheus in that? No messages transmitted back to the company from the disaster?

Thanks

The large stone sculptures in Prometheus/Covenant are thought to be representations of Engineer Elders. Some might call them gods, but others believe that the true gods (creators of the Engineers) have yet to be seen.

Aliens is set 86 years after the events of Prometheus, so Weyland was long dead. Knowledge of the xenomorph was a tightly controlled secret in the days of Prometheus. So nobody knew about it in Ripley's court martial. Burke had a hunch Ripley was telling the truth, which is why he sent a team to check out the derelict. Everyone else in the court martial thought Ripley was crazy, or they just didn't care.

Space is BIG. 400 surveyed worlds is nothing in the vastness of space.

Thanks!