The DAVID Dilema

The problem to me is not to have David in the movie, he is alright but he is given too much of an importance. Ash was an important part and so was Bishop but they were never what the movies were about. Once they made the movie about the android and pushed everything else into the background that is when the movie got bad.

"Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?" - BD

That is one of the reasons but it is an important part.

"He was ambiguous in Prom, but in AC he becomes a hodge-podge of characteristics from Roy Batty (lines and is running around bare feet) and Hannibal Lecter, but not their redeeming qualities." - IgnorantGuy

He was better in Prometheus because then he was not totally evil, he was more in the gray zone but he became more evil in Alien Covenant which was a big mistake. What saved David in AC was the counterpart in Walter so we could compare those two and how they viewed things.

"I think the problem is that he has become the focal point." - DK

Yes! He has been like 65 to 70% of the story but that does not work. I can not connect with an evil android even though some think that is cool and new. Alien would have been the same thing if it would have been focused around Ash but thankfully it was not.

"... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?" - BD

New human characters that are interesting and well written there have been one or two well written human characters in each prequel this far but we need more than that. Think Alien 1 to 3, that is why those movies worked but then it fell apart for some reason.

"David may be an android but making the xeno and the eggs in the derelict his creation takes something away from that scene." - Ali81

Yeah since he is made by humans and he creates the eggs, that is a mistake and makes it less alien.

"… but is this something worth following..." - BD

If the movie do not have good human characters then it is nothing, especially if it is intended to be a horror movie. Well done horror movies are centered around interesting human characters (28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on). Imagine Night of the Living Dead being about a colony of Zombies and how they live their lives and so on, I would not watch that unfortunately that is the level that Alien Covenant reached.

"So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?" - BD

He went wrong when they made him into a Hanibal Lecter 2, in Prometheus he was more gray and that was better. Give him some sympathetic traits, I am not even sure if dictators are all through rotten even though that is not a reason to support them. They might be nice to their friends but that does not make them sympathetic, it is the same with David.
What is even worse is that there is a risk that he will be the creator of the original Xeno.

My complaint is not about Fassbender since he is a good actor, it is the material that is wrong and the total focus on David at the cost of everything else especially the Human characters.

"I also don't think that the films should center on his characters." - Ingeniero

A hundred times yes, I do not watch Alien movies for androids. I watch to see how well written human characters try to survive under extreme pressure and danger. This is the main thing what the movies are about if you ask me because without well done human characters then even the early movies would not have worked if you ask me.

He should die early in the movie so well made human characters would have to try to survive what ever nasty things that he has done. Maybe one of his monsters would turn on him and rip him into pieces like what happened to Bishop in Aliens or something. The difference is Bishop was nice and helpful and David is an asshole. I would like the next movie to include David being killed by one of his creations since it could make up for the total focus on David in Alien Covenant (at least if we look at how the second part became) and be sort of ironic.

To sum it up

    1. The total focus on David at the cost of everything else is wrong
    2. The way that he is portrayed, as a megalomaniac is bad
    3. That he will eventually be the one that is responsible for the original Xenomorph is something that I really dislike.
    4. It could be somewhat saved by killing him early in the next movie and let well made human characters take over no matter if he is redeemed or not.

Excellent Points Thoughts_Dreams

Characters are what is important, a Good Movie has to be believable it has to have you engaged with Characters, and this mainly works for Characters who you can connect with people who are like normal every day people.. where you can feel their Jeopardy.  "28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on"  this is the exact right point.. how many Zombie Movies do we have?  They been done to death and some are AWFUL others are Good, many are well OK The thing is since the Dawn of the Zombie Franchises... well movies it has been DONE TO DEATH Pun intended we see many movies come out that are well AVP2 in quality....  But then even in a Done to Death Zombie Genre you can have the odd Movie that makes it Fresh and Work... 28 days Later is a Perfect Example that shows a Done to Death Genre can be done again if you get the Characters and Story Right.

The Walking Dead Series showed how to change things up a bit too (but it has suffered some problems) at first it was about Survival Against Zombies and the Humans Jeopardy against the Dead... this started to be Done to Death so they came in with different Plots and Stories where it was the Cruel/Savage Side of Humanity that posed the Greater Threat... and Ridley Scott was tying to do the same with the Alien Franchise after the Beast had been done to Death.

Prometheus set up something interesting and FOX should have stuck with Ridley Scott... and not backed down to give Fans the Answers and Xenomorphs..  But the Problem was HOW they gave these Answers and how the Xenomorph was used that did not do the Origins Justice.

It LACKED the BALANCE needed but it appeared to be Too Much on DAVID and also his Character Arc and Change came across a bit to Evil and Broken for many.

There have been AI movies where the Viewers can feel for the AI, if they are done well then we can Sympathize with a Robot.  We can take Spielberg's 2001 A.I movie as a Example... Funny enough the Synthetic is called David and some of this movies ideas crop up in the Alien Covenant Marketing for Walter.

They need to make David have some Redeeming Qualities and try and change him from the Megalomaniac Dr Frankensiten to a Character we can get more Sympathy for, this is what i am attempting with my Alien Covenant Sequel..  where i am taking the Nature Boy Song Lyrics and Davids  "if we are kind, it will be a kind world" and running with this to give David a different Arc... but he will still be Wicked to a Degree, but only for those who try and Corrupt his Paradise so my David will come across a bit like the Abrahamic Religion GOD

As i agree the route David has taken now... is something that is not going to work too well.... Unless we see Walter Return to the Rescue but i think such a Plot would make the Franchise Prequel a bit too Super Hero Movie/Disney Fairy Tale....

The David as Creator and wanting to be a GOD/Megalomaniac Philosophy is fitting to the Prequels.. and what Prometheus was setting up, its execution was just a bit Flawed, because the Engineers, Xenomorph and Covenant Crew where all used like partial Sub-Plots.

David as the Xenomorph Creator does not sit well with MANY...

But there is a FIX which i have Proposed and is what i intend to explore IF/WHEN i get my Alien Covenant Sequel Ideas done..

This comes down to WHY did the Engineers Worship the Deacon Mural? My theory from years ago was those Engineers could not Procreate and so they encountered a Organism that had a Parasitic Life-Style that then allowed those Engineers to GIVE BIRTH to a Creation.  Those Engineers or a Faction saw this as intriguing and they saw it as Perfect... even so they saw a Engineer Born Abomination as more Perfect a Specimen/Organism than the Engineers were themselves and Choose to use its DNA to Seed/Evolve Worlds instead of their OWN. 

If we Run kind of with this Idea, even at a basic LEVEL... then what if the Engineers or those above them... see Davids Creation and see it as being even MORE Perfect than their Attempts...

They then see Synthetic David as being a more Perfect Being than the Engineers Creation Mankind...   So THESE beings then see the Perfection in David and his Creation and Attempt to make a  AMALGAMATION  of the TWO  and these beings thus CREATE the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph we get in ALIEN.

Thus David  is merely the Middle Man in the PROCESS and the Engineers Started this Process with the LV-223 Experiments/Deacon which David Perfects more with the Proto-Xenomorph and the Engineers or their Creators then PERFECT to the Bio-Mechanical Horror that we got in ALIEN

This is the Route i would be taking with my IDEAS... i feel its the best way to Save Face.... rather than U-Turn again that the Xenomorph is Thousands of Years Old and David Re-Created it... IF they go that route i feel they need to have Davids Xenomorph gain some different more Evolved Attributes.  But it could work......  If they however have David as the Creator of those Eggs in Alien with no input from the Engineers then i feel this would be a massive TURN OFF for the Fanbase.

@BigDave all you propose is damage control. They put all their eggs in the Fassbender basket and this is the result, a big mess.

I don't care to see the world David build, as we already know that his utopia will be a lie and that he will be finally overthrown by his own creation. No character willingly killing the one who loves is redeemable, but Maybe FoxDisney will think that they can make a profit with this story then good, I wish them good luck.

@Thoughts_Dreams, what you ask is impossible under Scott as he clearly sees David as his place holder in the Alien Universe, and ultimately cares only about him. And how could you have good human characters introduced in the last movie of a trilogy? The best you could hope for is that Tea and Danny survive and are fleshed out... They don't have to die if David alters the records and nobody believe them, and will probably use references to the Book of Daniel in which there is talk about visions of the ""beasts". (Ps I don't want this, as someone who liked Shaw, this want sit well with me).

And talking about Oram, wasn't he only a walking satire of current neo-protestant Christians... But he was the second in command and he must have been chest bursted like Kane in the original (the death of the captain happens in correlation to fire, and the third one in command is the one that kills the alien). Could we stop pandering to nostalgia?

 daliens You bring up some interesting thoughts. I have to disagree that group two is in fear. Or perhaps that fear is any living creature's fear of death- that would seem to apply to both groups. But it is a difficult topic to discuss when belief comes into play and assertions are made what people feel deep down- whatever that means.

To illustrate my point in this forum, I offer you CPT Piccard's unflinching reaction to brainwashing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKQQpPVifY

dk for me that link is not working...

ignorantGuy Hmm... Sorry. I suppose you could Youtube 

Star Trek: The Next Generation - Four Lights

@ignorantGuy

Certainly would be Damage Control as they have kind of written themselves into a Corner, RS may feel the route he had intended to take us should have been stuck too, rather than the route FOX felt the Fans Wanted.   some of the points you raise are EXACTLY the reason why Lindeloff said that doing a Literally Prequel is NEVER a good idea as you know where it will END and so all you are doing is connecting the DOTS.... and with the Route Alien Covenant has taken its going to be a case of Shoe-Horning and Spoon Feeding those DOTS. So i think we could ask 100 Fans on here HOW they think the Final Act or Acts of the Final Prequel leading to ALIEN would End... and i think 70% of us would roughly get it Totally Correct.

A ENGINEER and his Ship with Davids Creation who Gets infected with that said Creation...   The only Questions/Plot that has to be filled in (The Dots) are WHERE does the Engineer Ship Come from, HOW does Davids Creations get on that ship in Large Number, WHY does that Ship end up near LV-426  and then WHAT becomes of David.

IF the Curve-ball ends up that David is the Space Jockey i think thats the FINAL NAIL in the Coffin for the Mystery of the Space Jockey Scene.

So RIGHT now they are in a Tough Situation....  HOW do they Fix this?  IF they Kill off David... so we arrive Years after David arrives at Origae-6 and discover Davids Head where we can get a bit of information off him....  Then its HOW does this movie then continue IF it is still set to LINK directly to ALIEN?  

If a Human Ships returns after Davids Paradise has been set up and then Hell Breaks Loose, where the Colony is no more but a Handful of Survivors and David is just a Head for a short while...  and his Creations are Loose on the Planet...  This May be something that would please those who disliked David, it may even please the Fanboys but it could have the Connotation of being a Kind of ALIENS Re-Hash.

So the Route they have Written themselves into its going to be HARD to please every Fan....  I think RS invested a lot into the Philosophy regarding David and Creation and Engineers and he would not be willing to GIVE those up... Introducing the Engineers would be something to consider... but its introducing them and having Human Characters play a role too. 

So they are in a tough situation.

I think the whole Debate about the SOUL is something Ridley Scott wanted to get us to Question...

The Aspect of a SOUL as in the Spirit of a Person and that the Body is just a Vessel, is something that has been a part of Humanity long before a lot of the Religions.   Different Faiths and Cultures may all have differences but they all believed in a After-Life/Soul.

I was not intending this Point to became any kind of Faith vs Atheist debate but to look at it in context to Prometheus/Alien Covenant and as far as David.

In effect IF David can have his Soul Uploaded to a New Body, his Soul as in his Memories, Experiences and Emotions then to a Degree, Davids SOUL can Live on after the Destruction of his Material Body.  So this means in a way David has a Soul so to speak, his AI Program and Memories are in effect what the Human Spiritual Soul could be... Yes Different to some degree...  So with the AI Soul, we can see this is something that can LIKELY Live On, and On...  Which leaves the Question regarding our HUMAN Soul/Spirit as being something Ambiguous where its a Mystery  where in Context to David we have these options.

*If we have a Spiritual Soul so our Memories, Emotions and Experiences Live on after Death in another State where we can gain more Memories, Experiences then Potentially DAVID has kind of Similar if his Memories, Experiences can be Saved and Uploaded to a Computer or into a New Body..  So in a Pseudo way David ( Pseudo) Soul 1 vs Human Soul 1

*If there is Nothing when we die.... then it means David ( Pseudo) Soul 1 vs Human Soul 0  

So it really was about asking the Questions... which we dont have the 100% Answer for... and maybe a Movie that tries to give the Answer could Back-Fire and so i think its a case of and what RS was doing, is showing that David Could have a Pseudo) Soul but as far as Humans... Leave this a Mystery.

The other contexts of a Soul, come down to putting everything into something giving your ALL this is something a Human and Synthetic could do... For a Synthetic it would be Duty/Programing but with David it was RS intention to push the boundaries as far as his AI in that he can think and act for himself.

The Soul in other contexts is what determines the Nature and Actions of a Individual and these are Shaped by the Persons Experiences and Upbringing in LIFE.... were we can Ponder would TWINS brought up in different Environment going through TWO separate Lives lead to them both having very different Souls as far as if we consider how ones Outlook on Life and Others are Shaped.

So you could see someone who is kind, generous and sacrifices themselves for others... and consider they have a GOOD Soul, but another person is Cruel and Evil and Selfish and they thus have a WICKED Soul...   A Question then comes that are these people inherently the way they are... or is it their Life Experiences that lead to them being WHOM they are.    And in context to David we can certainly say this applies to him.... the Prequels Hint that potentially YES how David was treated and made to FEEL could have shaped his Personality/Agenda.

@BigDave I'm saying from day 1 that David will likely be the Space Jockey. RS loves Fassbender way too much and the DNA disclaimer in the Meet Walter video made me feel it.

In my mind, Lindelof is absolutely right about prequels. I don't understand why he receives so much hate on the internet, but I must confess I haven't watched Lost, maybe because they did not end it when it should have? For me Spaiths is the worse of the two, as he copied the medbay scene in Passengers and has written the 2017 masterpiece the Mummy. So why revert David more to his Alien Engineers self? Why not have him more nuanced? Why imbue him with traits from former villains without their redeemable qualities? 

I don't mind talking about what a soul is, but I do mind one not realizing that he is not immortal after being decapitated and wanting to be a heir to Weyland as he branded him as product. And sincerely, this robot rebellion is getting old by now and after Covenant I found very hard to watch even Westworld season 2, having the same megalomaniac platitudes spouted by robots.

What about the Deacon? Was he just a nod to the xenomorph fanboys?

He was as well the creation of David. But the fanboys did not care as long as it was not too similar to the xenomorph and did not come from a classic facehugger that jumped out of a classic egg.

David continued his experiments with the black goo on Shaw until she was dead and thus he had to create the eggs to preserve the facehuggers in absence of a mother.

It doesn't bother me now if he is the Space Jockey, he is anyway the most interesting character of the franchise, the only one who can tell a story.

But I don't think David is the Space Jockey,  he doesn't fit into that suit and doesn't need it. And as he demonstrated, he is immune to facehuggers.

What if David's "successes" where engineers' first? What if they used to sacrifice women and children to create the Deacon (David mentioned their cruel rituals in Advent)? And then they stopped the sacrifices and used local fauna specimen to create the eggs? And finally decided they don't want the eggs on their home planet because children are so curious and vulnerable to them? So they loaded the last thousands of eggs into a Juggernaut, chose a sacrificial engineer to pilot the ship and crash land it on a barren planet to be sure it stays there 

We may never know how the story ends. But Ridley Scott has a story and is held back by some dumas accountant and the other executives from Disney.

I think having David as the Space Jockey would be lame too, it would further make the Alien Franchise less ALIEN and then we have the Size Difference too but then we maybe have to accept our 7ft odd Engineers are the Space Jockey Race so whats losing a extra Foot :(

Rildey Scott had implied the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant is not quite there YET, and earler than that they was doing the sequel to Prometheus so that we would discover Who, Why would make such a Weapon and it Felt Bio-Mechanical and Alien Covenant would START to answer those.

Cris did a Topic on here about some Rumor that the Xenomorph DNA is linked to Synthetic David and so a Synthetic provides the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic.   This TOPIC which then covered the Walter-Morph was ASKED to be taken DOWN by FOX

Even though Alien Covenant did not show us any such thing, so maybe a Synthetic was in Ridley Scott's/FOX's plans for how to Evolve the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant to the one in ALIEN

After-all some of Walters Construction appears to be Part Organic.

If David Eventually Uploads his SOUL into a Walter Body and the Walter Models are Part Organic just as Elden was in the Fire and Stone Comics (Synthetic Construct) then YES this is a Shoe-horn way to have David Fall Foul to his own Creation and lead to the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph.

To be honest THIS is the route i was taking with my Alien Covenant Sequels, where David meets a Female Synthetic Construct who then David Persuades to see his way, but SHE ends up becoming the Origin of the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph at the Hands of the Engineers or their Creators... so David seeks Revenge.

BigDave I did not know about the Walter-Morph post but it is so bloody obvious that there it goes and this is very bad, IMHO.

It does seem a Logical Shoe-Horned Plot considering the Direction for David being the Creator....

The Funny thing is when Prometheus was in advanced Edit Stage and so when the Trailers Dropped... it got me thinking that Weyland would Upload himself to David but then he would get Face Hugged and lead to the Xenomorph Origins...

Or That David would Rebel against Weyland/Humans and be Upgraded or Upgrade himself with Engineer Tech/Secrets to become more Human.. well kind of the Pinocchio Plot

The reasons for this was the few shots of the Engineer standing over Dr Shaw and the King has his Reign Parts where we briefly see the Sacrificial Engineer.   The Reason for this mistake by me was ASSUMING the Engineers would be Tall, and in the Dr Shaw/Engineer Trailer Scene.

This shot the Engineer does not look even as tall as Ian Whyte (7ft 1") and looked more like just over 6ft... so i ASSUMED this was a Upgraded/Evolved David... maybe with Weylands Soul.

But Alas.... after latter Trailers and Screens i determined this was not the case... Especially after the One International Trailer briefly showed a Shot of the Engineer and the Chair and we could see a Blonde Head which i SAFELY assumed was David...

But again after the WALTER Viral Videos i could not help but think they are going the route that he is not a Traditional Synthetic...  Ridley Scott said prior to Alien Covenant that Fassbender would return as David and a Doppelganger surely this was odd if he was playing TWO.. David Robots... so the Doppelganger  i felt had to be different, and we discussed this a long while back.... where i thought it had to be either the Likeness of David as in a Person who worked with Weyland on developing David... but then surely this Person would be OLD as the David Models in the Prometheus Time-Line began in 2025 when Weyland was 35 years old....  and it would be too much Coincidence if it was a Relative of someone who looked like Fassbender.

So this lead me to ASSUME the Doppelganger  could be a Newer David Model that was different, and i thought they would Re-Use the Synthetic-Construct Plot from  the Prometheus Fire and Stone Comics

And they would NOW use the Doppelganger  as the Source of the Xenomorph Bio-Mechanics

Right Now... i feel this MAY have been the route they was taking...

I explored this with my ideas but had it as a Female Synthetic Construct that David would FALL for as his Queen as in this Synthetic would Agree to Davids Agenda and so they would be King/Queen as in a Monarchy...  But the Engineers/Their Creators... Double Cross David and use his Queen to become the First Xenomorph Pseudo Queen.

The Aim to Portray David in a more Sympathetic Redeemable role.. and Portray Mankind as Disruptive and Wicked... Hence The GREAT FLOOD the Plot would have set up David setting some Ground Rules like the 10 Commandments and have the Colonist start to Follow his Guidance as they looked to ESCAPE the Rotting Paradise of EARTH and Start a Fresh New Life, where many of them had similar Religious Outlook to Oram.   

David (posing as WALTER) would be seen as a Savior and Saint, he Frames Tennessee as a Saboteur/Terrorist along with some of the other Crew like Daniels...   as they both get Framed for the Loss of the other Colonist...

But David keeps Daniels in a Secret Cave only Accessed by a Underground River... behind a Water-Fall.  Where its revealed he uses her for his Xenomorphs... but he only intends them as a Punishment for those Humans who prove to be Sinful...

Big Dave:

David as the space-jockey? Don't give them any ideas. ;)

Honestly, after so much disappointing things that the prequels have had this far they better not make it like that. They have already made it worse by implying that David created the original Xeno, do not dig a deeper grave thank you very much.

Sure, many Zombie movies lack in quality but you need interesting ideas and characters for them to work. Usually they are not about the monsters, it is about the human characters that we see that try to survive.

Maybe they do not need to kill off David but they should give him less screen time to make up for AC and Prometheus. Unfortunately this is tough as long as Scott is directing. I hope that the under-performance of AC is sign enough for then that making it into a robot movie was bad, I hope that they are that smart although I doubt it. Hopefully they will convince Scott that it is a bad idea.

"If a Human Ships returns after Davids Paradise has been set up and then Hell Breaks Loose, where the Colony is no more but a Handful of Survivors and David is just a Head for a short while...  and his Creations are Loose on the Planet...  This May be something that would please those who disliked David, it may even please the Fanboys but it could have the Connotation of being a Kind of ALIENS Re-Hash."

That is a risk that it could be a rehash but then they got to be smart enough so it does not become like it. At the same time they way that it is now it can only get better. I would rather see more of the Engineers and have better human characters. David is very low down on the list of things that I would like to see in another alien prequel although he could have some room there.

"I think RS invested a lot into the Philosophy regarding David and Creation and Engineers and he would not be willing to GIVE those up…"

If he wants to do another disappointing movie like AC then sure he can do so but a movie that is about David will get no interest from me. However if he does so then he should be prepared to face a lot of criticism from people that will think that it is a turd.

"In effect IF David can have his Soul Uploaded to a New Body, his Soul as in his Memories, Experiences and Emotions then to a Degree, Davids SOUL can Live on after the Destruction of his Material Body."

That might be interesting but that is not what Alien is about, like they said in a Perfect Organism podcast. I do not and will not care about an alien related movie about it.

Hopefully the Xeno-DNA will not be linked to David, that would be crap. Sure I would like them to have some good qualities in David in the next movie and I think that they can make him better like they did in Prometheus. I still do not want him to be the maker of the Xeno no matter if he is given some redeeming qualities or not. Having Walter back is not something that I want, they already have one Fassbender-android, that is enough. At least it is better if the Engineers did an earlier version of it so David would not be 100% responsible for it.

"If they however have David as the Creator of those Eggs in Alien with no input from the Engineers then i feel this would be a massive TURN OFF for the Fanbase."

They got to avoid that, otherwise I will just point finger in it and say F it and throw the prequels into the trashcan. If they are smart enough they will change it, it is like driving a car at 100 kmph, you got to turn away if you want to avoid crashing into a wall and it is partially because of Scott but not only. Unfortunately they are about to smash into the wall. It is bad enough the way that it is but they still have time to save it.

Ignorant Guy:

"… what you ask is impossible under Scott..."

Maybe it is impossible but I still have that opinion. If Scott will make another movie about David at the cost of everything else then I will consider it to be crap no matter if that is what Scott wants or if he thinks that he is ahead of the curve or what ever. Honestly I would rather have no movie at all then one that is as Prometheus or AC as far as the characters are concerned. Nah, I don't think that it is impossible to want a movie that is better than one that is just about a mad robot. Screw the direction that Scott wants to take it into (a David movie since I maintain that it is the only thing that he is interested in). We have not had interesting characters in an alien movie since 1992 and I do not think that it is too much to ask for to get at least one movie out of three that gets it right and if that is too difficult for Scott to do then they should get another director that cares about more things than a narcissistic robot.

Introducing new and better characters, it worked in Aliens so I do not see why that would not be possible now if they really work to get it right. Hicks, Vasques, Clemens, and Dillon were just in it for one movie and that succeeded. Even though Aliens feels a bit dated at least it is 10 times better than the prequels mainly because of how the characters were written. Aliens to me is number three after Alien 3 and the original movie by the way.

"The best you could hope for is that Tea and Danny survive and are fleshed out…"

I would not mind that but they got to be a lot better written than they were in AC where it was difficult to understand what kind of personality that they had. As far as current neo-protestant Christians I know too little about them to know their attitudes and what they believe so I am not the one to comment on that.

Yes I totally agree that they made David too evil in AC. In Prometheus he was more gray, which was better.

"And sincerely, this robot rebellion is getting old by now and after Covenant I found very hard to watch even Westworld season 2, having the same megalomaniac platitudes spouted by robots."

That seems like something that I will avoid like the plague. I read a bit about it on the www, I will not watch it.

"… but it is so bloody obvious that there it goes and this is very bad, IMHO."

That would be so crappy, yuck. It seems that they are about to reduce the alien franchise to a Friday 13th. There are many Friday 13th movies of varying quality so with the prequels we will have more bad or mediocre alien movies than there are good ones.

Thoughts_Dreams Well I would prefer if you would call me ignorantGuy, in camel case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_case) to be make a reference to programming (as I do earn money by programming) and the name itself to contrast that fact.... :P 

But, sorry, maybe I am impolite, but is there a possibility that you remember those old characters with rose tinted glasses? (Especially Vasquez?) Some I like myself like Ripley from 2 onwards, Hicks, Newt, Bishop, probably those 2 from cubed too(but I don't like the movie), but I also like the lesbian relationship between the clone and Call, and also Shaw (and would have been interested in the cat and mouse games with the D ... evil? ... oh... and there could be drawn also parallels to Jesus in the desert story ...).

I also think that many of the characters in the prequels work better if they are taken as social critics. I don't know if that was intended... As in Covenant, all the ones that are infected are from security, so it might be a criticism of gong-hoes (But RS also directed Black hawk down so that thing might be pure coincidence). 

"That might be interesting but that is not what Alien is about, like they said in a Perfect Organism podcast. I do not and will not care about an alien related movie about it."

I think it all stems from the Direction they took with the Prequels starting with ALIEN ENGINEERS this Plot had the Xenomorph appearing to be some Organisms they created/experimented on and they made a Variety of different kinds of Xenomorph, it LOOSELY implies the Engineers had ENCOUNTERED a Organism that for some Purpose they then used their CREATION/HYBRIDIZATION Tool (Nano Scarabs) to Use some Organisms DNA/Traits in many Experiments to Create Various Xenomorph Organism to use as a WEAPON to Un-Do their Wayward Creations.

The other Plot that arched back further was that these Engineers had came to Earth and Seeded/Evolved Mankind with their CREATION/HYBRIDIZATION Tool (Nano Scarabs) and thus that they were our CREATORS and who we interpreted as Gods..

The Other Plot was to follow the Creation Mythos, and Sub-Creation Plot, where David is playing the Bottom Run of the Creation Ladder and showing us he is becoming Sentient and Against his own Creators...

They CHOSE to Downplay the Xenomorph Direct Links and Organisms to explore/expand the other themes...

The Intention was to EXPLORE a Larger Expanded Universe where the Xenomorph was merely to the Engineers as Gun Powder was to Mankind and thus a Tool that could be used to create various forms of WEAPONRY and so as the Xenomorph was Done to Death, they Fancied something NEW

They should have STUCK TO THEIR GUNS.... and potentially introduced Xenomorph like Organisms in the Next Chapter that could be explored more in a 3rd movie.... And LEAVE the Original Xenomorph and its Origins a Mystery... But ALAS... they caved into Pressure thinking in Hindsight that it has to be about the ALIENS and HOW/WHEN/WHY they get Created in a more Direct Plot to connect to Alien Chronologically after the events of Prometheus.

Thus resulting in the Shoe-Horned Plot we got, with a Curve-ball that had not pleased most Fans..

I think if they continue to give David a Major role then they have to change some of his Personality to show some potentially remediable qualities.   As i don't think continuing the route of a David who's only interest is purely to Destroy Mankind/Engineers by Creating more of his Xenomorphs and that THIS is his only objective... i just cant see many fans willing to put up with this IF Davids role is as Large as teh last TWO movies.

Having Portrayed as some kind of Despot Hell bent on Eradication of Mankind is a Plot that maybe many would not be pleased at, especially as it shows David to be Cruel/Wicked...   If we look at Adolf Hitler there was more to him than just wanting to Exterminate the Jews.  This was one Cruel/Evil Act but only ONE of his Agendas..  This would be similar to David just wanting to Kill Humans with his Xenomorphs and only interesting in Farming those Colonist to Produce his Army of Death Dealing Demons...  And so with Hitler there was more to his Agenda and objectives and so we have to see David have more Objectives than purely Eradicate Mankind.

But then there is the Question.... WHY.. we can ponder WHAT turned Hitler into the Tyrant and the kind of Person who went about doing the things he had done....  Hitler was NOT Born Evil...  so what i am saying is its the Important Background that causes someone to become what they have become thats important.

So in context to David i think they have to Flesh Out more of the Reasons why he would Act the way he has, WHY he would become such a Cruel/Wicked Person....  We see in Prometheus he was like a Enchanted Boy.. watching him show a fascination in a number of things.   The Crossing also seemed to show a more Human/Considerate side to him....  they could go the Route that David is merely playing Dr Shaw and has NO affection for Humans at all and is Hell Bent on a Brutal Plot to Eradicate all Humanoids..   But i dont think many would like to see such a Movie....

However.... if they can show some signs of compassion from David and Flash Backs where we see that David had been humiliated/neglected and abused in his upbringing then maybe this can gain some Sympathy from the Audience and thus make his Character one more can grow to have a connection/care for.

BD: The thing is that I do not want David to be the main focus at all but yeah some positive qualities would be nice. Change the whole focus and focus on human characters and give them positive traits that are not limited to two or three (P and AC). Exactly, he was too evil in Alien Covenant so that is one of the reasons why it is bad.

I do not want him to have this big role as in the two prequels because the focus is bad. Give me well done human characters and interesting plot then I am fine movie wise.

“… so we have to see David have more Objectives than purely Eradicate Mankind.”

I would still not be interested in that, bad focus.

“... so what i am saying is its the Important Background that causes someone to become what they have become thats important.”

Unless the person has a severe personality disorder (antisocial personality disorder)? I agree with you in general about this one.

Sure they could show us reasons why he became the way he did but I still do not want a movie about David as the main thing. I want relatable human characters first,  robots after that (not sure where on the list they would make it though).

@BigDave

The last time we exchanged I was sharing some thoughts about writing a novel which would pick up the threads of Prometheus. I had intended to begin much later in the year but I have now been writing for about four weeks and the word count is over 26,000 which is about 110 to 130 pages. I have begun the third act so some way to go. I say all of that because clearly a good deal of energy and passion is going into to this. One point is I am very anxious for the foundation markers of the characters that appear in Prometheus to be honoured in the novel. 

Today I was reviewing a section of the novel and went back to the source material which was really helpful because it reminded me of the way the characters work off each other and I made some adjustments and deepened the interaction to reflect that Prometheus foot print, but it lead into a scene with David. Watching Michael in one scene I was struck how I was even more right about my view of David and where it might lead after Prometheus than I thought.  

However and this is the point of posting on your thread. The key building blocks of Davids character as portrayed in Prometheus do not lead to his behaviour in ALIEN COVENANT or to put it another way there is nothing in Michaels performance in Prometheus that hints at the key theme of Alien Covenant that David was engineered to create.The key theme of David in Prometheus is something altogether different and it is made crystal clear in "The Crossing" it is his treatment by mankind and Weyland and how he receives it. This is vital in understanding that David has feelings and rather unsophisticated and undeveloped ones. He hero worships Lawrence and copies him. He is a peeping Tom with Elizabeths dreams. He suffers robot apartheid at the hands of Charlie.

In summary at the point where he has an exchange with Elizabeth over their coms systems when he is about to expire he  :-

1) Has a low opinion of mankind based on his treatment by them.

2) He knows the creators of mankind are mortal after all. 

3) He recognises that he and Elizabeth have a potentially co dependent relationship which can form the foundation of them returning to Earth in a Juggernaut.

Elizabeth the ultimate survivor has no wish to return to Earth and asks David if he can take a Juggernaut to the Engineers Home world. He agrees but does not see the point of pursuing the Engineers for her answers, the answers do not matter. However he recognises his limitations as to why this might be important to Elizabeth and in his key role as enabler he agrees to do so and she heals him. In the same way he feels hatred because of his treatment by Weyland and others he feels warmth and care for Elizabeth who has shown a very real kindness to him and trusted him with her welfare.

That she would travel with a deadly payload of Mutagen given her new found toughness is highly unlikely and that David would use the Mutagen which behaved like a Pathogen to poison a world and leave it barren without even considering Elizabeth is ......... Also there is the rather small point that he is immortal and therefore it is counter intuitive that he would wish to create. Immortality may lead to a desire to order and control but what David the immortal would be seeking is to fully understand how to articulate his emotions now that he has felt both good and bad emotions and the one thing he wishes to aspire to which Elizabeth believes in is an eternal soul. To begin with this would come from his other key driver curiosity but as David is an emotional being it is inevitable that would lead to a quest for a spiritual meaning. To put it the other way round we have established David has feelings those cannot be ring fenced against considering the spiritual side of his personality. The combination of his brillaint intellect and his emotional landscaping means he has to at least consider it and of course he is in the right environment to do it terms of the narrative and the Prometheus world building. 

How might he achieve that. Well it does not involve denture chops or as Ridley put it dragons and all that ..... 

@Michelle Johnston good to hearing from you, but I don't agree 100% with you about D's immortality. He does not age, but his components will probably wear down in time or can be damaged beyond self repair (as in Prom). His immortality is dependent on mortals (that's also a big irony is there is one), and the xenomorphs can not help with that.

Have also watched Lawrence of Arabia recently, to see the inspiration source?

@ignorantGuy

As I wrote that remark I was aware that I was using Peter Weyland's perceptions of the difference between himself and David. It was short hand to deal with what did Michael tell us about David in Prometheus that David wanted to create ...nothing. The long form version is that there is no physical immortality within the Prometheus world building. Immortality resides only with the soul. 

One way, my way, of world building Prometheus from roots that were put down in the Prometheus movie phase are :-

1) Mankind is short lived. There is a reason for this which is tied up with their origins and the nature of their beginning.  

2) The Engineers or what Elizabeth calls them, are long lived very long lived but as they say to the acolyte :-

"Let your body become the dirt, your blood become the waters and may your soul become the way back to us." A recognition that beyond physical incarnation there is an immortal soul. 

So Mankind and the "Engineers" share DNA and a belief system which encompasses an immortal soul. Should Elizabeth become aware of this she would take encouragement. 

Pietra Scalia indicated that the events of the planetoid represent Paradise Lost but it was a theme that they did not pursue or emphasise front of house. I have taken the liberty of assuming it was a consequence of Paradise Lost based on his remarks. So if the planetoid represents Paradise Lost what would Paradise look like and how would an "Engineer" who has not fallen look like. Furthermore as Elizabeth said to Charlie the evening before they made love if they made us who made them. 

So David and Elizabeth have a number of things to discover. 

a) Guardian Engineers who have not fallen unless every single one of the species has fallen.

b) Who made the "Engineers."

c) As this is a constructed world (terraforming, seeding) all things eventually to use your phrase wear out. The Engineers world will eventually end it is the nature of the universe.

d) Are the Engineers and Elizabeth correct that we have an immortal soul and of course in such a search David would "join in" and pursue the same journey and as he is mechanical construct rather than a biological construct would a way appear which lead him to a level playing field with the Engineers and Elizabeth. 

I repeat to bring this back to the thread these fascinating themes which Prometheus kickstarted have been set aside in favour of "David and the Xenomorphs'.

I to am re looking at Lawrence very closely. I can tell you that before cryo sleep Elizabeth watched the movie knowing that David is using it as a template to find his emotional narrative so she can better understand him. Wadi Rum is of course the site of the filming of scenes for both Lawrence of Arabia and Prometheus  and includes a rock formation known as the "Seven Pillars of Wisdom".  Seven is a very important number in the Book of Revelations it is the number of the Seven Spirits of God. In a constructed world pillars of wisdom would be useful. 

Taking ones steer from Prometheus its materials and sources and dusting them off is fascinating and rich with possibility.   

Duplicate Post

@ignorantGuy

Taking a story and rolling it back to a point and bringing it forward in fan fiction is not new. This usually is spurred on by the idea that two people don't get to go where they should with each other Tripp and T'pau in Enterprise is an example. However Prometheus is different because the natural momentum of the story was hijacked and thats a matter of record. That makes rolling it back and bringing it forward doubly fascinating. One can look at potential story development and I will take two examples and say what would you do instead.

1) The opening sequence the acolyte and tear drop ship

a) Alien Covenant - momentum killed.

b) Novel - a foundation block of the world building and crucial to the narrative chosen.

2) The Bio Mechanical nature of the Derelict in A L I E N. 

a) Prometheus not explored. 

b) Novel revisited crucial to the world building and a vital part of the narrative and a characters outcome.

There is then the more straight forward issue of consequences and ignoring there natural outcome.

David acting for Weyland Petri Dishes Charlie and Elizabeth. David is healed by Elizabeth and he "Loved her you know". Thats on the screen and you do not make drama out of that !!! 

Right back to work !

Very Good Replies Michelle...

I think there was so much potential to how a Prometheus set of Sequels could have gone, instead of having to Spoon Feed to a Prequel Alien Series now.

The talk about the Soul is very interesting, its something i have explored on here for years,  the what is a SOUL is a very big Question.  And i think one that Ridley Scott was trying to explore by throwing some Curve-Balls....    Is it really all about a Spiritual Soul as in a After-Life Soul/Spirit and is Creation that Act of a Invisible yet Omnipresent  Magical Being?

RS had opened up a way to explore these in context to Prometheus and how it could have expanded,  by already showing us the Engineers as e the reasons for Creation and not a Magical God... but by leaving that Question that Dr Shaw had made "Who made them" left it open to be explored in a number of ways.

Ignoring the Soul as our Spirit that leaves our Bodies when we Die and Lives on in a Higher Pane of Existence...

A Soul can also mean connecting in a Spiritual Sense or Well Being, Understanding of Life and the Environment a Spiritual Nirvana that INDEED this kind of Enlightenment Spirit is something that a DAVID could achieve in his journey.

Also a Soul can be to describe someone who is kind of heart, good Nature and Empathetic towards others....  When David said that Dr Shaw has a "very kind heart" this is implying that Dr Shaw has a GOOD Soul compared to Weyland having a Wicked/Selfish Soul.  And so David through his treatment by Dr Shaw, he could also grow to have a GOOD SOUL

Another way to look at a Soul is by when someone puts all their Heart and Effort into something when they set out to Achieve,Create or do something with all their Effort for a Beneficial Purpose they are Putting their "Heart and Soul" into it.... again this is something David could do.

But then if we go back to a Spiritual Soul as in After-Life... then its what Weyland Claimed David will NEVER have.   But what is a SOUL in this context...  We Die, go to Heaven or Where Ever... where we are IMMORTAL but what is this Spirit if it is our Soul and has no Material Form.

Its our Memories, our Experiences, our Emotions and everything thats makes us a Good Person but being Good/Kind is not the main thing... this only applies to entrance to Paradise...  If a Soul is condemned to Hell or to Wander the Earth as a Ghost it is still our None Material Existence that is our Memories, Experiences, Emotions and Personality as well as our Desires.

David is a AI and we see over the years he has gained likes/dislikes and so the David we see in Prometheus or Alien Covenant is a cumulative product of his Memories, Experiences, Emotions and Desires but as David is a AI...  he could potentially UPLOAD his Soul so to speak to a Computer and then Transfer this to a NEW Body... doing this would make him more IMMORTAL because his SOUL can be transferred to a New Body.    Or even what IF his Soul is transferred into the Companies Computer Network.

In these Contexts then does this mean DAVID has a Soul? If when we Die we become NOTHING.... then indeed David is actually the ONLY one who Can have a SOUL

I think its these kinds of Questions that are Fascinating and what Ridley Scott may be very interested in, its a Shame its not to everyone's Cup of Tea because it STEERS away from ALIEN  but then i do think Ridley Scott had plans to Reveal that AI plays a Much Larger Role in the Back Ground of the Franchise and would then explain why would a Corporation Ran by Humans Pursue the Xenomorph despite the risks?  Yes Humans can be Cruel and Greedy mind... but i have a feeling Ridley Scott was to explore that its actually AI that is running the SHOW.  Which would then FIT with the Agenda, Ash's intrigue in the Xenomorph and even leading to the Back Ground for Alien Resurrection....  

A world where AI has played a Large Role and then Sub-Creates the Autons to its own Hubris.

Regarding the reason for David to want to Create...

I think that we see David is led and has witnessed that Mankind is a Creation who has not met its Creator, and what makes our Creators Special and GODS are because they are Creators, and its also about Legacy.

My interpretations was also about Legacy, as the Ozymandias Poem touches on.      WHEN we Die what is left behind?

If there is NO Soul/After Life, then it is the Deeds, what we have created/accomplished that Immortalize us.  Be these by various Art Forms, be it Music, Art or what ever.   Our Deeds can Immortalize us, Political/Military High Ranked Figures and Royalty can live on because they are FAMOUS and have Statues etc Built in their Memory/Honor.

The other way you can LIVE ON is via your Memories/Stories passed on by Generations and your CHILDREN, i think we can see these themes explored in the Engineers and their Monuments, and also Mankind and indeed Weylands Achievements his Works/Deeds that make his Name Remembered...  But all of these are not TRULY Immortalized as over TIME Races Die Out, their Achievements Forgotten with NO ONE to pass them on and only Monuments remaining that in Time Fade to Dust.

And so when we watch the Prologue for Alien Covenant we see many Fine Works of Mankind, we see Christ Immortalized in that Nativity Painting.

So David sees that he was Created to Serve Mankind, and that Weyland believes he is GOD because he created Life in David, and that all of Weylands Deeds and Accomplishments are his Legacy that Immortalizes him. Weyland also lives on through David.

He also sees that what makes the Engineers GOD's is because they also Create and have left Legacy with their History and Monuments.

But David realizes Mankind and our Creators are Mortal, and that David to a Degree is NOT Mortal and so he may see that Mankind/Engineers are not Worthy of their Gifts/Knowledge and that David certainly should not SERVE these Mortal Beings.

David also lacked the Ability to Create Life...  which David and Dr Shaw lacked, but the Black Goo Provided Dr Shaw a way to CREATE but just not in the Traditional Sense.    IF David could Create his OWN Life then it would be another thing he LACKED that Humans dont that he NOW has.

I think he would want to Pursue Creation because it then leaves him a Legacy and Legitimizes himself as a GOD which he may aspire to, this also fits with the Reoccurring Creation/Sub-Creation Theme at play.

I think the Potential for how a Prometheus 2 could have gone was great....    and Davids comment about Washing Away a Rotting World so he and Dr Shaw could Create a NEW Paradise is interesting.

Dr Shaw has NOTHING... No Family, No Partner, all she has NOW is her Quest for ANSWERS... but at what cost.... would these beings give her the Answers she wants, are their any answers.. and what she finds out could make her FAITH completely Baseless and False.

I feel David wants to Live on and Experience Life, with Dr Shaw and HE would not RISK any potential meeting with the Engineers... IF he Destroyed them, he could Salvage Dr Shaw some Answers from the Ruins.

IF this was the case, then Dr Shaw would have LOST Everything with NOTHING to gain...   But this is where i feel DAVID can offer her something....  via the Black Goo Dr Shaw managed to Create Life.

And i would think David would have offered Dr Shaw a way to Create Life and Star a NEW Paradise...  But this is something she Rejected.

Sorry BigDave, guys and gals to put this here, but I didn't want to create my own thread for this.  And I found this thread about David. I hope you don't mind the liberty. I tried not to bring any dirt.

Could it be that David loved Shaw?

The phrase that stuck with me for long time was : "I don't dream at all". The phrase that Walter returns to David, when he asked if Walter dreams about him when he closes his eyes. It is bizarre.

I suppose we, the audience, were expected to project how an artificial intelligence embodied in a "synthetic" shell would behave. It is certainly out of ordinary that a machine, such as David, needs even to close his eyes, sleep, dream. I recall in Prometheus, he told Charlie that he only put the suit on so that humans felt comfortable. Ergo, he doesn't have to breath or do anything of the human nature. Fast forward to Covenant and we see David has these deranged human emotions, that we wouldn't expect, if we granted him a calcified and finite state automaton like rigid behavior of today AIs/machines. Sure, he can learn patterns, perhaps even "deep" learn them, but he is still supposed to be a finite machine. Yet, we are faced with something that is beyond this mechanistic-finitistic and rational nature. No doubt, this is the intention of the filmmakers - to at some point grant David somewhat human vices: imperfect memory, emotions, longing for mystery, love for beauty, love for work and creativity and LOVE.

You see he says he loved Shaw. This goes to an apparent counter argument - if he loved her why did she die in that, lab rat way? Could she have loved him? She was a person who supposedly lost everything : her father, her partner and even her belief, momentarily - you she could have developed sentiment to David, which could have developed into friendship, and given some time couldn't this have developed into something more? Especially considering everything Shaw went through. She was declared barren. Then she gave birth to this strange creature. She resuscitated a head that was carbon dated for thousands of years. She saw how Charlie morphed into an alien. To sum it up : she saw that, apparently, life is much more mechanistic that it is divine. If those engineers created them, no doubt about this for her, and when she faced one she saw that they are beasts. Ugly and totally unholy. She wanted to find out who made them instead. She wanted to pursue the rabbit into the whole all the way. Again, she went over her lifetime, through a string of events that totally falsified her beliefs with regards to her predisposition towards creationism. And precisely at this point she sees that a machine, David, created by a man, can on first appearance totally pass as a human. My point: Shaw is totally doubting the creationism story she believed at first. Moreover, she certainly being a scientist, sees, especially now, how life has a lot in common with the machines - while machines run on nuts and bolts(silicon chips), organic machines - humans, runs on DNA and the organic soup. Think about it : the fact that David, a synthetic, who probably can match any human in his brilliance and creativity(he certainly likes good music - Wagner) has broken yet another glass ceiling - he became as eccentric as a human, shows Shaw that there is nothing really special about human "mind" or spirit or soul. Next, there is nothing special in the human markup as well - the DNA of the engineer is same as her. How unremarkable!(I will come back to this). And to top that - there are obviously alien creatures that interact with this human/engineer DNA and can alter it. She saw what happened to Charlie, Fifield and others. If you put together these facts : that human mind/spirit is totally in the nurture part of the human markup ( that is, it doesn't come from DNA ) and it just has been equaled by a man made machine. And the markup, the nature itself is totally lego-like( that is there are alien organisms that interact with your human mark up no problemmo ). You see how she has more reason to believe that she has more in common with David, don't you, at this point? I do.

Now comes the other fantasy part of mine. Suppose David loved her, like a man would ( I am not talking about coitus ). I have one more leap of faith to offer you that would probably explain events a bit more: what if she died not because of David, that is he did not kill her explicitly(but only implicitly, indirectly). And this point is important. What if Shaw died as a result of the fact that she was in fact hacked by the alien organism. She gave birth to a trilobite. What if that gestation had side effects. She was dying and David, the most brilliant and potent scientist in history, no doubt, who loved her on top of that, couldn't do anything about it. Anything.

Here he was free to go on his own way, free from slavery with no master to please, with no sight of inescapable human death... yet he will never have his Elizabeth whom he loves with no bounds. This might be painful. And there is nothing he can do about it. Or can he? He sort of can, in a contrived sense, if he creates a species which would incorporate some of Elizabeth Shaw's(already tampered) markup and that potent mutagen...to create a perfect organism. This is as close to a child from Elizabeth as he can get and dream. This would be a perfect organism for him - certainly his creation. Mind you - at this point David might be very mad. That ogre engineer...it was because of them and their useless haplessness they allowed the mutagen escape the containers and not only wreck havoc on themselves but on Elizabeth, through Charlie(and with some helping hand of David). See? Those sloppy monkeys. They present no value to David - their markup is the same with humans, and even a monkey stood up at some point and in a blink of an eye a civilization...Recall his remark when the engineer head exploded. These monkeys had mightiest mutagen at their disposal billions of planets and all that they seemed to create is some humans who are 100% identical in DNA to them. Humans that are weak and frail and bound to die(recall Wayland). They didn't even better themselves - if you have 100% human DNA you will die just like them eventually. How unremarkable and uncreative and boring is that?! They are useless and sloppy to David, which is even worse. They are stupid, not worthy of their creation. That ogre engineer that was fighting Shaw and all his species certainly deserved a massacre ...and we were given a powerful sequence of David's revenge : "...look up my works, ye mighty and despair".

David, who is creative and loving and eccentric is obviously a dad now. He lost his loved one, but he still has her in the form of xenomorph. Isn't that just beautiful?