The DAVID Dilema

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.

It would be interesting to see how things would play out if the franchise discovered that there is emperically no such thing as a soul - that could solidly place David on equal footing with humans.

Indeed....

Why there is a potential for this expanded Universe, which i think RS was keen to explore such Philosophical Themes and Steer away from ALIEN but alas.......  FOX wanted a more Straight Up Prequels with Xenomorphs.

I had posted some theories on here prior to Alien Covenant regarding Weyland and David and i brought them up because my idea for Prometheus 2 which i canned Mid 2014, i was exploring what is  a SOUL.

And a Soul is basically... (these can be expanded to be more than 4 main ways to define what Soul means).

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories.

*A Person who has a Kind, Caring and Giving Nature and are Not Selfish (that person has a Good Soul).

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action).

The First One is the Mysterious One... The Big One... and One we dont really have the Answers for, and the ONE that David could never have...  HOWEVER.... If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David.

The other 3 can apply to David, by his Actions his Deeds...

But the one i was tackling was the 2nd One...

If David has many years of Emotions, Memories and Experiences, when David is Destroyed... if his Memories, Experiences etc can be uploaded to ANOTHER Android Body then David would in effect HAVE the Soul that can Live on After-Death and David would be Immortal to a degree.

It was my theory and what i was exploring with my Prometheus 2, that Weyland's Objective with David was to Create the Perfect Physical Vessel...  a Being that was nearly Perfect compared to Humans.

Weyland was then also working on a Project Called (Project Rook) that was to Upload Weylands Soul... his Memories, Experiences and Emotions into a AI... so that then when Weyland Perfected this.. he could combine this with a Synthetic Host and BECOMES IMMORTAL

It would have been Revealed in my Prometheus 2 that this Project was Flawed and Weyland Could not create a AI that could Handle Complex Emotions and Memories and so the Weyland AI would become Unstable and go Insane....   Thus Weyland Abandoned this Project..

He then resorted to Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings as a LAST Ditched Effort to gain Eternal Life from our Makers...  The End of my Prometheus 2.... the Vickers Android would be able to Activate Project Rook before her Final Encounter with TWO Yutani Geisha Synthetic Assassins (She defeats them but she is wounded and revealed she is a Synthetic and thus can-not inherit the Company).

But the Rook Project is Activated and Weylands AI is uploaded to the System...  which leads to the reveal that Weylands AI is running the Show as far as the Companies Agenda in the Franchise and most of Humanity is not in the know....  Bit Matrix i know ;)

So there are interesting ways AI can be involved with the Franchise, but the Problem is MOST Fans will only ever see that the Xenomorph is the Franchise... while Ridley Scott was trying to explore something else..

My Prometheus 3 however would have brought the Engineers more into it... 

 If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David. Bingo! Thus David and Synths could be considered valid people or persons.

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories We have no proof of this for humans but the notion of a soul for these points could be the "cloud"? It is at least real and verifiable.

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action). It seems this notion can easilly be put to bed: (2 1/2 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttmsiU-GZlg

daliens What is death? A basic definition is "a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life." If something lives on after that, could it really be dead?

daliens It seems there is no answer to what a soul is. We cannot see a picture of one or even have hard evidence. So it seems to come down to faith- which should not be confused with fact.

I lean towards no afterlife or soul for those reasons but subject matter like this makes for some of the most interesting sci fi discussions.

The problem to me is not to have David in the movie, he is alright but he is given too much of an importance. Ash was an important part and so was Bishop but they were never what the movies were about. Once they made the movie about the android and pushed everything else into the background that is when the movie got bad.

"Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?" - BD

That is one of the reasons but it is an important part.

"He was ambiguous in Prom, but in AC he becomes a hodge-podge of characteristics from Roy Batty (lines and is running around bare feet) and Hannibal Lecter, but not their redeeming qualities." - IgnorantGuy

He was better in Prometheus because then he was not totally evil, he was more in the gray zone but he became more evil in Alien Covenant which was a big mistake. What saved David in AC was the counterpart in Walter so we could compare those two and how they viewed things.

"I think the problem is that he has become the focal point." - DK

Yes! He has been like 65 to 70% of the story but that does not work. I can not connect with an evil android even though some think that is cool and new. Alien would have been the same thing if it would have been focused around Ash but thankfully it was not.

"... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?" - BD

New human characters that are interesting and well written there have been one or two well written human characters in each prequel this far but we need more than that. Think Alien 1 to 3, that is why those movies worked but then it fell apart for some reason.

"David may be an android but making the xeno and the eggs in the derelict his creation takes something away from that scene." - Ali81

Yeah since he is made by humans and he creates the eggs, that is a mistake and makes it less alien.

"… but is this something worth following..." - BD

If the movie do not have good human characters then it is nothing, especially if it is intended to be a horror movie. Well done horror movies are centered around interesting human characters (28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on). Imagine Night of the Living Dead being about a colony of Zombies and how they live their lives and so on, I would not watch that unfortunately that is the level that Alien Covenant reached.

"So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?" - BD

He went wrong when they made him into a Hanibal Lecter 2, in Prometheus he was more gray and that was better. Give him some sympathetic traits, I am not even sure if dictators are all through rotten even though that is not a reason to support them. They might be nice to their friends but that does not make them sympathetic, it is the same with David.
What is even worse is that there is a risk that he will be the creator of the original Xeno.

My complaint is not about Fassbender since he is a good actor, it is the material that is wrong and the total focus on David at the cost of everything else especially the Human characters.

"I also don't think that the films should center on his characters." - Ingeniero

A hundred times yes, I do not watch Alien movies for androids. I watch to see how well written human characters try to survive under extreme pressure and danger. This is the main thing what the movies are about if you ask me because without well done human characters then even the early movies would not have worked if you ask me.

He should die early in the movie so well made human characters would have to try to survive what ever nasty things that he has done. Maybe one of his monsters would turn on him and rip him into pieces like what happened to Bishop in Aliens or something. The difference is Bishop was nice and helpful and David is an asshole. I would like the next movie to include David being killed by one of his creations since it could make up for the total focus on David in Alien Covenant (at least if we look at how the second part became) and be sort of ironic.

To sum it up

    1. The total focus on David at the cost of everything else is wrong
    2. The way that he is portrayed, as a megalomaniac is bad
    3. That he will eventually be the one that is responsible for the original Xenomorph is something that I really dislike.
    4. It could be somewhat saved by killing him early in the next movie and let well made human characters take over no matter if he is redeemed or not.

Excellent Points Thoughts_Dreams

Characters are what is important, a Good Movie has to be believable it has to have you engaged with Characters, and this mainly works for Characters who you can connect with people who are like normal every day people.. where you can feel their Jeopardy.  "28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on"  this is the exact right point.. how many Zombie Movies do we have?  They been done to death and some are AWFUL others are Good, many are well OK The thing is since the Dawn of the Zombie Franchises... well movies it has been DONE TO DEATH Pun intended we see many movies come out that are well AVP2 in quality....  But then even in a Done to Death Zombie Genre you can have the odd Movie that makes it Fresh and Work... 28 days Later is a Perfect Example that shows a Done to Death Genre can be done again if you get the Characters and Story Right.

The Walking Dead Series showed how to change things up a bit too (but it has suffered some problems) at first it was about Survival Against Zombies and the Humans Jeopardy against the Dead... this started to be Done to Death so they came in with different Plots and Stories where it was the Cruel/Savage Side of Humanity that posed the Greater Threat... and Ridley Scott was tying to do the same with the Alien Franchise after the Beast had been done to Death.

Prometheus set up something interesting and FOX should have stuck with Ridley Scott... and not backed down to give Fans the Answers and Xenomorphs..  But the Problem was HOW they gave these Answers and how the Xenomorph was used that did not do the Origins Justice.

It LACKED the BALANCE needed but it appeared to be Too Much on DAVID and also his Character Arc and Change came across a bit to Evil and Broken for many.

There have been AI movies where the Viewers can feel for the AI, if they are done well then we can Sympathize with a Robot.  We can take Spielberg's 2001 A.I movie as a Example... Funny enough the Synthetic is called David and some of this movies ideas crop up in the Alien Covenant Marketing for Walter.

They need to make David have some Redeeming Qualities and try and change him from the Megalomaniac Dr Frankensiten to a Character we can get more Sympathy for, this is what i am attempting with my Alien Covenant Sequel..  where i am taking the Nature Boy Song Lyrics and Davids  "if we are kind, it will be a kind world" and running with this to give David a different Arc... but he will still be Wicked to a Degree, but only for those who try and Corrupt his Paradise so my David will come across a bit like the Abrahamic Religion GOD

As i agree the route David has taken now... is something that is not going to work too well.... Unless we see Walter Return to the Rescue but i think such a Plot would make the Franchise Prequel a bit too Super Hero Movie/Disney Fairy Tale....

The David as Creator and wanting to be a GOD/Megalomaniac Philosophy is fitting to the Prequels.. and what Prometheus was setting up, its execution was just a bit Flawed, because the Engineers, Xenomorph and Covenant Crew where all used like partial Sub-Plots.

David as the Xenomorph Creator does not sit well with MANY...

But there is a FIX which i have Proposed and is what i intend to explore IF/WHEN i get my Alien Covenant Sequel Ideas done..

This comes down to WHY did the Engineers Worship the Deacon Mural? My theory from years ago was those Engineers could not Procreate and so they encountered a Organism that had a Parasitic Life-Style that then allowed those Engineers to GIVE BIRTH to a Creation.  Those Engineers or a Faction saw this as intriguing and they saw it as Perfect... even so they saw a Engineer Born Abomination as more Perfect a Specimen/Organism than the Engineers were themselves and Choose to use its DNA to Seed/Evolve Worlds instead of their OWN. 

If we Run kind of with this Idea, even at a basic LEVEL... then what if the Engineers or those above them... see Davids Creation and see it as being even MORE Perfect than their Attempts...

They then see Synthetic David as being a more Perfect Being than the Engineers Creation Mankind...   So THESE beings then see the Perfection in David and his Creation and Attempt to make a  AMALGAMATION  of the TWO  and these beings thus CREATE the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph we get in ALIEN.

Thus David  is merely the Middle Man in the PROCESS and the Engineers Started this Process with the LV-223 Experiments/Deacon which David Perfects more with the Proto-Xenomorph and the Engineers or their Creators then PERFECT to the Bio-Mechanical Horror that we got in ALIEN

This is the Route i would be taking with my IDEAS... i feel its the best way to Save Face.... rather than U-Turn again that the Xenomorph is Thousands of Years Old and David Re-Created it... IF they go that route i feel they need to have Davids Xenomorph gain some different more Evolved Attributes.  But it could work......  If they however have David as the Creator of those Eggs in Alien with no input from the Engineers then i feel this would be a massive TURN OFF for the Fanbase.

@BigDave all you propose is damage control. They put all their eggs in the Fassbender basket and this is the result, a big mess.

I don't care to see the world David build, as we already know that his utopia will be a lie and that he will be finally overthrown by his own creation. No character willingly killing the one who loves is redeemable, but Maybe FoxDisney will think that they can make a profit with this story then good, I wish them good luck.

@Thoughts_Dreams, what you ask is impossible under Scott as he clearly sees David as his place holder in the Alien Universe, and ultimately cares only about him. And how could you have good human characters introduced in the last movie of a trilogy? The best you could hope for is that Tea and Danny survive and are fleshed out... They don't have to die if David alters the records and nobody believe them, and will probably use references to the Book of Daniel in which there is talk about visions of the ""beasts". (Ps I don't want this, as someone who liked Shaw, this want sit well with me).

And talking about Oram, wasn't he only a walking satire of current neo-protestant Christians... But he was the second in command and he must have been chest bursted like Kane in the original (the death of the captain happens in correlation to fire, and the third one in command is the one that kills the alien). Could we stop pandering to nostalgia?

 daliens You bring up some interesting thoughts. I have to disagree that group two is in fear. Or perhaps that fear is any living creature's fear of death- that would seem to apply to both groups. But it is a difficult topic to discuss when belief comes into play and assertions are made what people feel deep down- whatever that means.

To illustrate my point in this forum, I offer you CPT Piccard's unflinching reaction to brainwashing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKQQpPVifY

dk for me that link is not working...

ignorantGuy Hmm... Sorry. I suppose you could Youtube 

Star Trek: The Next Generation - Four Lights

@ignorantGuy

Certainly would be Damage Control as they have kind of written themselves into a Corner, RS may feel the route he had intended to take us should have been stuck too, rather than the route FOX felt the Fans Wanted.   some of the points you raise are EXACTLY the reason why Lindeloff said that doing a Literally Prequel is NEVER a good idea as you know where it will END and so all you are doing is connecting the DOTS.... and with the Route Alien Covenant has taken its going to be a case of Shoe-Horning and Spoon Feeding those DOTS. So i think we could ask 100 Fans on here HOW they think the Final Act or Acts of the Final Prequel leading to ALIEN would End... and i think 70% of us would roughly get it Totally Correct.

A ENGINEER and his Ship with Davids Creation who Gets infected with that said Creation...   The only Questions/Plot that has to be filled in (The Dots) are WHERE does the Engineer Ship Come from, HOW does Davids Creations get on that ship in Large Number, WHY does that Ship end up near LV-426  and then WHAT becomes of David.

IF the Curve-ball ends up that David is the Space Jockey i think thats the FINAL NAIL in the Coffin for the Mystery of the Space Jockey Scene.

So RIGHT now they are in a Tough Situation....  HOW do they Fix this?  IF they Kill off David... so we arrive Years after David arrives at Origae-6 and discover Davids Head where we can get a bit of information off him....  Then its HOW does this movie then continue IF it is still set to LINK directly to ALIEN?  

If a Human Ships returns after Davids Paradise has been set up and then Hell Breaks Loose, where the Colony is no more but a Handful of Survivors and David is just a Head for a short while...  and his Creations are Loose on the Planet...  This May be something that would please those who disliked David, it may even please the Fanboys but it could have the Connotation of being a Kind of ALIENS Re-Hash.

So the Route they have Written themselves into its going to be HARD to please every Fan....  I think RS invested a lot into the Philosophy regarding David and Creation and Engineers and he would not be willing to GIVE those up... Introducing the Engineers would be something to consider... but its introducing them and having Human Characters play a role too. 

So they are in a tough situation.

I think the whole Debate about the SOUL is something Ridley Scott wanted to get us to Question...

The Aspect of a SOUL as in the Spirit of a Person and that the Body is just a Vessel, is something that has been a part of Humanity long before a lot of the Religions.   Different Faiths and Cultures may all have differences but they all believed in a After-Life/Soul.

I was not intending this Point to became any kind of Faith vs Atheist debate but to look at it in context to Prometheus/Alien Covenant and as far as David.

In effect IF David can have his Soul Uploaded to a New Body, his Soul as in his Memories, Experiences and Emotions then to a Degree, Davids SOUL can Live on after the Destruction of his Material Body.  So this means in a way David has a Soul so to speak, his AI Program and Memories are in effect what the Human Spiritual Soul could be... Yes Different to some degree...  So with the AI Soul, we can see this is something that can LIKELY Live On, and On...  Which leaves the Question regarding our HUMAN Soul/Spirit as being something Ambiguous where its a Mystery  where in Context to David we have these options.

*If we have a Spiritual Soul so our Memories, Emotions and Experiences Live on after Death in another State where we can gain more Memories, Experiences then Potentially DAVID has kind of Similar if his Memories, Experiences can be Saved and Uploaded to a Computer or into a New Body..  So in a Pseudo way David ( Pseudo) Soul 1 vs Human Soul 1

*If there is Nothing when we die.... then it means David ( Pseudo) Soul 1 vs Human Soul 0  

So it really was about asking the Questions... which we dont have the 100% Answer for... and maybe a Movie that tries to give the Answer could Back-Fire and so i think its a case of and what RS was doing, is showing that David Could have a Pseudo) Soul but as far as Humans... Leave this a Mystery.

The other contexts of a Soul, come down to putting everything into something giving your ALL this is something a Human and Synthetic could do... For a Synthetic it would be Duty/Programing but with David it was RS intention to push the boundaries as far as his AI in that he can think and act for himself.

The Soul in other contexts is what determines the Nature and Actions of a Individual and these are Shaped by the Persons Experiences and Upbringing in LIFE.... were we can Ponder would TWINS brought up in different Environment going through TWO separate Lives lead to them both having very different Souls as far as if we consider how ones Outlook on Life and Others are Shaped.

So you could see someone who is kind, generous and sacrifices themselves for others... and consider they have a GOOD Soul, but another person is Cruel and Evil and Selfish and they thus have a WICKED Soul...   A Question then comes that are these people inherently the way they are... or is it their Life Experiences that lead to them being WHOM they are.    And in context to David we can certainly say this applies to him.... the Prequels Hint that potentially YES how David was treated and made to FEEL could have shaped his Personality/Agenda.