The DAVID Dilema

Supporting this....

I have seen the Journey David has taken and from the First Movie i have seen the Foundations that David would have been in for the Ride in a Important Role for at least the Sequel to Prometheus and maybe more.

I understood the Philosophy that was going on behind, and how the Engineers and Creation ARC fitted together, and that Ridley Scott's Vision and Story was not just to show us the Xenomorph...

We have a Robot, Created to be Perfect by his Creator Peter Weyland, whom by Creating Perfection he sees in David makes Weyland feel that he has become a GOD, and in fact Weylands Creation is more Perfect, he will NEVER Die (to a degree) Never Get Old...  But he will never have a SOUL.

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.. not Naturally but David was NOT Created Naturally either.

So we see we have this Android, made to Serve a Unworthy (in his eyes) Creator, seeing his Kind (Synthetics) Created to Serve Mankind, and yet are a Creation Superior to Mankind.  

Feeling Mistreated and not Respected by Most Humans....  David does seem to Grow a Bond with Dr Shaw after the Events of Prometheus because in spite of what David had done, Dr Shaw appeared to eventually treat him well "she was very kind of heart"

From Prometheus and during his time after, David has discovered there is NOTHING Special about Mankinds Creation, and there is NOTHING Special regarding the Engineers, he witnesses their Foolishness and Errors of their Ways..  And they are MORTAL after all and IF not for their Technology and Bio-Weapons which they appeared to abandon/shun on Planet 4... then our Engineers are merely SIMILAR to Humanity.

David's Arc would follow that shown in many Mythos/Religons be it Lucifer vs God, be it Zeus Vs Cronus there are themes at play where Creator/Father is Overthrown by Creation/Children and the Engineers maybe for-saw that with Mankind hence the Bio-Weapon to Protect themselves... 

But this is not about them... its about David (the Topic) and we can see the SEED's that have led David to wish to be his own Creator, to Serve No-One and be his own KING and David's Pursuit to Perfect what the Engineers had been attempting, could see David feel he can ACHIEVE much more than those Engineer Would be Gods!

But the Philosophical Tale must Continue... the constant History has shown the Hubris in Playing God and Sub-Creating and its only a Mater of Time before Davids CREATION becomes his DOWNFALL...

THIS... is the Kind of Tale Ridley Scott intended and still intends... but is this something worth following, all the potential to Follow David from his Grace to his Fall likely at the Hands of his Creation... or maybe those above the Engineers who Fall to Davids Creation (in attempting to Utilize/Perfect it for themselves).

This is a Tale that may have needed TWO movies to Tell... its a Tale that can-not be told if David is given the Dr Shaw Treatment and Killed off Screen, or plays a smaller Role and Dies by the 2nd Act.

SADLY.. Its  a Tale that Takes too much away from the Xenomorph and Engineers, but i think they could be incorporated....

So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?

BigDave for me personally the problem is the way to much emphasis he receives (both the robot and MF). He knows to do everything, even to create the Xenomorph (which is no longer alien). He was changed from a pretty young robot in the Prometheus novelization to being 80 years old in AC, being a stand in for RS himself.

He was ambiguous in Prom, but in AC he becomes a hodge-podge of characteristics from Roy Batty (lines and is running around bare feet) and Hannibal Lecter, but not their redeeming qualities. Roy was a leader and probably cared at least about Pris and the people he kills on screen are responsible for the slave labor. On the same page, dr Lecter is a monster, but he lives in a world of monsters. In Silence, only he threats Clarice decently and sees potential in her, more than a good f**k.

On the other hand, David has shed any redeeming qualities, he kills/tortures the one who threat him kindly and has the guts that if we are kind the world will be a kind place. He assaults Daniels as a rapist would do. He hates humanity but recites human poetry, and is completely unaware the meaning of what the poem means. He pretends to be perfect but lacks any kind of self-awareness. And how can a flawed race create something perfect. He is not truly immortal, as if it wasn't for Shaw he would have died after Prom. Why is he or xenomorph any better than humans or the Engineers?  

I think the problem is that he has become the focal point. I really like the David/Walter dynamic, but the franchise is called ALIEN and most associate that title with the Xenomorph.

"On the other hand, David has shed any redeeming qualities, he kills/tortures the one who threat him kindly and has the guts that if we are kind the world will be a kind place. He assaults Daniels as a rapist would do. He hates humanity but recites human poetry, and is completely unaware the meaning of what the poem means. He pretends to be perfect but lacks any kind of self-awareness. And how can a flawed race create something perfect. He is not truly immortal, as if it wasn't for Shaw he would have died after Prom."

That is a great summation of how David acted in Alien: Covenant ignorantGuy. Great point regarding David's immortality too. All that you wrote before that, to me, was David losing his mind. He's gone. Bonkers robot building aliens. I love it.

I believe that David has to die in magnificent fashion dk. I just hope that it its Walter that does it or some sort of Engineer response that David didn't plan for. I believe that there is mystery still in the origins of the mutagen and the xenomorph shown in murals.

If the novels are any indication of where the story might head toward then the next films should be xenomorph fiesta.

"Its  a Tale that Takes too much away from the Xenomorph and Engineers, but i think they could be incorporated....

So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?"

I don't think it's curtains for Fassbender BigDave. I also don't think that the films should center on his characters. And it is certainly time for Engineers and xenomorphs.

I have some sympathy for David. His creator gifted him enormous intelligence, creativity, strength and longevity, yet turned him into a slave within moments of his activation. Further, he was publicly humiliated and threatened by the humans he was commanded to serve. Further, he had the stigma of being branded soulless. The implication of that is that his life is essentially worthless and that it could be terminated at a moment’s notice on someone’s whim. I imagine David would beg to differ on the matter of whether he has a soul or not.

Is it any wonder he felt hard done by? He has a point, in my opinion, when he’d like to see the end of us lot, a cruel, weak and moribund race.

Personally, I find this back story (and that of the Engineers) far more interesting than being hunted by a xeno. Bring it on! More please.

hox

Yet, his cruel creator is one that he respects as he sign with the Weyland name and even has one of the kindest fate in the prequels. He even tortures/experiments upon the one he loves, so where is his kindness? He is exactly his father, nothing better, so I can not show no sympathy for this kind of lack of understanding.

And how are humans dying as we know that they will survive for at least several more hundred years? This is only his villain judgement, nothing more (or cliche writing).

He is robot cliche material. If the choice is between him or the d**k-head let the series die already.

The sad thing is that the Alien universe has been largely destroyed due to lack of honour to a franchise and fans. The soul of the ancientness and mystery has been removed. The two big mistakes are (of course):

1. Making the Space Jockey not fossilized (as Dallas says it is). It’s not a skeleton but a space suit!
2. Making David the creator of the xenomorph!

Both of these stupid ideas have probably ruined the whole show! Is it possible to mend this? I honestly can’t see how. Mabe by making David realize that he has been delusional? He thinks he is the creator of the xenomorph but the Engineers created it aeons ago (and realised it was a mistake)?

The last, connecting movie, should be about David continuing his creation and in the end regretting what he’s done - sacrificing himself! But, there are some eggs left on LV-426 . . .

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.

This is much more profound than simply David-mad-at-puny-inferior-creator human's.

The Xenomorph being the perverted end-product of soulless creation I can live with. It is a twisted look at what we are capable of stripped of our humanity. Frightening to imagine. While it still makes the Alien less alien than the endless ancient evil we had, it is better than the angry at the world scenario we appear to have.

It almost makes you feel sorry for David. He wants to create, wants to be approved by his makers - like Shaw to the Engineers!

But like asking someone who has never had sight to draw a portrait (I mean no disrespect or comparison to David, simply to illustrate an analogy), David is absent of a dimension and medium needed to express himself in a way that is relatable to the norm. His perfect organism is twisted and empty, like himself.  

I would like to see this angle pushed, explored and emphasised, give David some redeemable qualities and we're back on track.

David is an interesting character that went astray, I don't believe it was Ridley Scott's intention to go down this path, at least in such a brute-force kind of way. But his character is still salvageable, and so is Covenant, given a suitable and meaningful sequel!  

IRaptus so David is like Morgoth from the Lord of the Rings saga. That is not very new...

"Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?"

I would FIRST like to mention my comment above is purely in regards to his role in the Alien Franchise be it Walter/David or other role and not his Future in Hollywood.   We have seen Fassbender has had a lot of very good roles and performances in Hollywood and David in Prometheus was a very good Performance too..  I think parts of his Performances in Alien Covenant were not good enough for his kind of ability but ALAS the script is the biggest problem there.

@IgnorantGuy

I think mostly in regards to the Movies and given back ground David has 69 years of Memories and Knowledge, and looking at Prometheus with Dr Shaw i would be quite sure David realizes the Pathogen infecting her Womb leads to the Trillobite and so a starting point for experiments would indeed be to test this stuff on Human Egg Cells Directly.

I agree as DK said that too much Emphasis was put on his Character Alone (and Walter), we can see the Philosophical Themes are being Told SOLELY through David/Walter now and little with Mankind and the Engineers.     The Alien Franchise had Ripley but it also had the Xenomorph and the Protagonist and Antagonist shared equal Footing...  But with the Prequels David was playing the Middle Ground where Dr Shaw was the Protagonist  and the Engineers our Antagonist and so David would have been like our Narrator  but a lot of the Story would Revolve around him too and less the Xenomorph.

The Changes basically brushed Dr Shaw and the Engineers under the Carpet so that the Movie Solely seems to revolve around David/Walter but unlike the Alien Franchise... the Xenomorph and Neomorph played a more restricted role and so the only sense of Protagonist /Antagonist  was through David/Walter

I agree they tried to give David many attributes from other movies making him seem like a Copy Cat  of many Characters from various movies/books in some crazy mish mash Parody... where in Prometheus he was more a Pinocchio who was fascinated with Peter O'Toole 

The whole why David Hates Humanity Philosophy, i had covered in the OT and first reply.. and Hox has touched upon this too.  David felt Dr Shaw was different, and while David may feel some compassion/love for someone... with David it is always for his own Selfish Desires.   And in REAL LIFE we get this happen in relationships, where we see Someone have a Deep Feeling of Love for someone but its always from their POV....  And if the Relationship breaks down   the Person in Question is NOT able to let go of their Love Interest if she has a chance to be Happy.... but the Person in Question Can-Not accept that and only sees their own Agenda and that SHE is only allowed to be Happy with THEM.  So in Life we do get certain situations where Love can turn to Hate, Kindness to Bitterness and i have Witnessed this kind of thing happen a number of times.

So for David... he could not accept that Dr Shaw does not have more than Platonic Love/Feelings for David, she also may have seen Davids Warped Idea of a New Paradise with her as Creepy and Perverse and wanted NO part in this....   At this Point the Rejected David may have viewed her just as unworthy and unkind as Mankind.

This is just the interpretation i reached however.... i also read into the Nature Boy song and Davids "if we are kind, it will be a kind World" that Davids plans for Origae-6 are to Create a New Paradise where these Humans may be Given a 2nd Chance, but he would try and enforce his own Rules upon them... Acting not only as a King David but also as the God when he made the Covenant with Mosses...   I think David sees the errors/flaws in the ways of Mankind and the Ways of the Engineers and wishes to Oversee a different World..

But again its just how i read into the clues/set up....   but obviously something goes wrong with Davids NEW Paradise... where the Truth Comes out and then the $"%$£^ Hits the Fan.   But then David could just as easily want to create a World of AI's i dont think however RS would give us a Multiple Fassbenders in some Android Paradise and NO Xenomorphs....  and so RS comments about what kind of World would David Create, i dont think will Solely be about Xenomorphs and Multiple Androids...  but who knows... i think it would have to be about a few of them though.

But i think RS may have other plans to expand Davids Character and Role, but these ideas could be a Movie that would not be VERY Alien as in Xenomorphs or very Prometheus as in Engineers until the 3rd Act.  Then the Direction after this could be more Engineers/Xenomorph.

BigDave David did not see the trilobite in it's ultimate form, he saw something not human was in the womb. In all honesty, it could have been a mutated spermatozoa with with it's squid shape and tentacles. So for me it is not clear 100% for me that starting with the womb of the woman you claim to love is the best idea, no matter how crazy u are.

"The two big mistakes are (of course):

1. Making the Space Jockey not fossilized (as Dallas says it is). It’s not a skeleton but a space suit!
2. Making David the creator of the xenomorph!"

In Hindsight maybe yes....  I think the Space Jockey is not a Skeleton, the whole Skeletal Structure would be something that Mechanically would be flawed....  We also see the Hose/Snorkel is not Organic Looking and the Connectors to the Arms do not look Organic.  Only the Head and Rib-cage give indication of a Skeleton.  HOWEVER Indeed in STARBEAST the Giant Race who discovered the Spores/Eggs were Skeletal Remains when the Humans Discovered their SOS.

But i think your points are Valid... i would summarize/evolve them here.

1) Its not quite the case of the Space Jockey being a suit, but the whole Engineers/Space Jockeys are Creators of Mankind Plot.. While this is interesting and Bold.... it brings the Space Jockey/Derelicts very ALIEN nature too close to Humanity and not being very ALIEN.

2) The David Creates the Xenomorph Angle further brings this closer to HOME also, by having a Rebellious/Sentient Android who is upset with his Creators and so Creates the Xenomorph to Destroy us... has made the Xenomorph less ALIEN too.  While it fits with the Philosophy of Creation/Creator Rebellion and Sub-Creation Themes...  Revealing David as the TRUE Xenomorph Creator i feel is a MISTAKE.

3) It appears the Emphasis is now too much on DAVID, and while it follows the Philosophical Themes, Prometheus laid down... the way AC had used the Xenomorph and Engineers has basically BRUSHED the Mystery of the Space Jockey/Derelict and Egg Cargo aside its made them something very connected to a Rogue Android and LESS ALIEN than when we first saw the Scene in ALIEN.

The only way to fix David now, is we have to evolve his Character to give him some Redeeming Qualities while still having him have some Wicked Ones only as far as Harsh Punishments for those who Stray from his Paradise he wishes to Create. 

@ignorantGuy

I can see your point regarding David likely had not seen the full extent of the Pathogen, its a bit ambiguous how much they knew of the Creature in the Med-Pod bay... it depends if we go by Drafts and Exras..

But by Prometheus itself David did Examine Dr Shaw and he Knew she was Pregnant with a None Traditional Fetus...  so he knew she was not having a Human Child, he would likely had known Dr Shaw could not conceive Naturally.   He had confirmed after Spiking Holloways Drink that Dr Shaw and Holloway had Sex.

So David would have figured the Black Goo he spiked in the drink had made its way to Dr Shaws Womb and caused the Alien Fetus,  David would surely Ponder HOW this could have happened.  Which Logically leaves 3-4 Scenario's  (covered on here before so will skip) 

We dont know how much Engineer Writing he had saw and translated so we dont know how much he knew from LV-223 but he was bound to know a little...   And upon Bombarding Planet 4 he would learn more.

so looking at a Starting Point, if you was David and wanted/wondered what would have became of the Aborted Fetus of Dr Shaws and you had Female Engineers and Dr Shaw.... you would surely know that the Black Goo has some effect on the Reproductive Organs of the Female Species and certainly it would be one path you would be wanting to conduct some experiments on.

for me, and I am only speaking for myself, the issue I have with David is that it seems he is the star focus of the show now. what I love about the original film is that not only is it a masterpiece, it left me wanting more and asking questions. the question Ridley was supposed to be answering in this trilogy. who was the big guy in the chair and what were the eggs for/ where did they come from? its mysterious and alien and having seem the xeno stalk and wipe out the crew of the Nostromo, there is an obvious sinister motive to how they got there, whether it was a storage unit or being transported to be used in some kind of war. and so it should have remained alien to us. but it doesn't look like it is. Fassbender is wonderfull as David esp in Prometheus but now he and his motives ARE the focus and that's just the same old guff we get in other sci-fi franchises. should the creation of the original xeno we see in Alien remain alien to us? hell yes 100%. the derelict scene in Alien IS the franchise. RS said it himself when making the original. the set was huge, physically and financially and the studio wanted it scraped but Ridley said 'this scene MAKES the movie'. David may be an android but making the xeno and the eggs in the derelict his creation takes something away from that scene. its now less 'alien' to the viewer. iv said it before, ill never be able to look at the derelict scene in Alien the same way with the same level of wonder and intrigue if/ when David is revealed to be the one responsible for putting them there and the ship not being thousands of years old. the scene will have lost something to me and the simple fact is they should kept its origins alien to us.

now in AC, I thought David was ok but the film itself was poorly done. it flew by important parts far too fast and the horror of the creatures potential lost. they died far too easily imo. it needed another 30 mins I think.

they can save it tho. id rather have it perhaps go down like this..

we find David on origae 6. he has experiment on a large portion of the sleeping covenant crew and has his creature and allows the remaining crew to colonise the planet. he then releases his version of the xeno on the settlers to observe his creation naturally, using the settlers however they do to procreate. the engineers return to planet 4, see whats happened and get really pissed. while their enroute to gain revenge we see inside their ship and its revealed they have a cargo of weapons, THEIR eggs, the same eggs we see in the original movie. when they arrive they unleash hell on origae 6 and David, with the help of the human survivors (who are unaware David was responsible for what happened to them), realises he and HIS creations are no match for the engineers and their bio-mechanical xeno and manages to escape the planet. the engineers give chase and in Davids redemption (somehow he manages to release one of the engineer face huggers aboard the engineer ship which gets the pilot), he manages to take down the engineers ship which now becomes the derelict on lv426. they can have David crash land on lv223 or whatever and that gives u more questions and the possibility of a future film revealing what happens to him.

given the choice of losing either the origins of the xeno we see in Alien or the length of time the derelict has been on lv426, Id give up the latter. for me, its a good compromise. it keeps the xeno origins alien to us and we can see Davids realisation that his attempts at playing god are futile. unfortunately I don't think this will happen :-(

From additional materials to Prometheus we know, what Derelict was on LV-426 before Prometheus expedition. And hologram Engineers, when David find Juggernaut, talking about this incident.

I want say, what prequel series is no longer about LV-426 or Derelict. No. It's separate story. Especially since Covenant year 2104, Alien year 2124. 20 years? Minus 7 years for path to Origae-6 (if David go on this planet, not back to the Zeta 2 Reticuli). Too little time.

Maybe next RS Alien movie will be between Alien and Aliens - enough time to path and experiments. As variant (with LV-426) - maybe David go to LV-426 after Nostromo and modified aliens on a board Derelict and give them queen.

@ali81

I agree with most of what you had written, The Purpose of the Prequels was " who was the big guy in the chair and what were the eggs for/ where did they come from"

The Prequels began with this.. in Alien Engineers and in context to that Question Alone it was a bit ambiguous but not as much as Prometheus.  Alien Engineers was flawed as far as if people take it as the literally Alien Prequel... Logically the aftermath does-not match Alien.  (The Beacon, the Wreckage of the Magellan)  what it hints to me is that another Engineer Ship suffered the same Fate but crashed in a different location on LV-426 Thousands of years prior).

Alien Engineers in context to the Question.. hints that LV-426 was maybe home to a Organism, Mollusca and with some Insect Traits in appearance that the Engineers had Re-Engineered and Experimented with to Create a Variety of different Organisms to be used as Bio-Weapons. The Xenomorph being ONE kind of these experiments.

Prometheus gave us some vague clues to potentially similar... But FOX decided the Prequels should not give us the Answers or Feature Xenomorphs but Focus more on the Engineers and the Background to them given in Alien Engineers. And to mainly cover in context to the Xenomorph... vague clues to a connection and WHY they would create such Bio-Warfare... 

Alien Covenant attempting to answer the WHY/HOW/WHEN in regards to the Xenomorph and Reintroduce the Organism back to the Franchise due to some Back-Lash with Prometheus and to make a New Trilogy that would NOW give us the Xenomorph Origins and lead up to ALIEN only the New CURVE-BALL  that David created it... has made the Origins and Enigma of the Xenomorph Less Alien.

The Movie was more about WHY David would create the Xenomorph rather than the Xenomorph and Engineers, it was Focuses too much on WHY David would Create such a Horrific Creature.

Too much Emphasis was on David... but his Arc and Character i can understand fits PERFECTLY with the Prometheus Philosophy but i think the Execution of his Character and it seemed everything else was a sub-Plot  was not very well done...  More Focus should have been on other Elements and a extra 40 Minutes run time was needed and also that David merely EVOLVED and Perfected what the Engineers had created in the past.

It can be saved by having the Engineers EVOLVE Davids Creation to get to the Xenomorph and thus David is merely the Middle Man.

@Leto

The Bonus Material and Marketing are all things that can be TAKEN out of Canon with Future Movies and so the Knowledge of the Signal on LV-426 has to for the Time Being not be taken as Canon no more.  But this could be changed depending where the Prequels END  (if they ever do get made)

Right Now.... we have David setting off with the Covenant Ship to Origae-6 in Late 2104, the Covenant will take 7 years 4 Months to get to Origae-6 which means a Arrival Date of around April 2122 just over 10 years prior to ALIEN

The Engineers will Return and we can bet THIS is maybe were the Derelict comes from, or the Returning Engineers take David  and/or his Creations to LV-223.  Because before we get to ALIEN in context of AC here is what has to happen.

*Within the Space of 10 years prior to Alien David arrives at Origae-6 and we have to ponder what Next.

*Engineers will return and be one of 3-4 incoming Parties to arrive at Origae-6 we have to assume after David arrives around 10 years prior to ALIEN

*Davids Creation has to become EVOLVED more.

*Davids Creation has to END UP on a Engineer Ship.

*This SHIP has to be heading towards or leaving the Zeta-2 System (LV-223) just prior to the SPACE JOCKEY Event.

So thats 10 years for the above to Roll Out and we have to assume David may be on Origae-6 for a number of years prior to the Arrival of the Engineers, and also we have to assume the Derelict ends up on LV-426 for longer than Months, and so i think the most part of Alien Covenants TWO intended Sequels would Transpire between 2114-2120 Ball Park... but this is just my ASSUMPTION

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.

It would be interesting to see how things would play out if the franchise discovered that there is emperically no such thing as a soul - that could solidly place David on equal footing with humans.

Indeed....

Why there is a potential for this expanded Universe, which i think RS was keen to explore such Philosophical Themes and Steer away from ALIEN but alas.......  FOX wanted a more Straight Up Prequels with Xenomorphs.

I had posted some theories on here prior to Alien Covenant regarding Weyland and David and i brought them up because my idea for Prometheus 2 which i canned Mid 2014, i was exploring what is  a SOUL.

And a Soul is basically... (these can be expanded to be more than 4 main ways to define what Soul means).

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories.

*A Person who has a Kind, Caring and Giving Nature and are Not Selfish (that person has a Good Soul).

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action).

The First One is the Mysterious One... The Big One... and One we dont really have the Answers for, and the ONE that David could never have...  HOWEVER.... If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David.

The other 3 can apply to David, by his Actions his Deeds...

But the one i was tackling was the 2nd One...

If David has many years of Emotions, Memories and Experiences, when David is Destroyed... if his Memories, Experiences etc can be uploaded to ANOTHER Android Body then David would in effect HAVE the Soul that can Live on After-Death and David would be Immortal to a degree.

It was my theory and what i was exploring with my Prometheus 2, that Weyland's Objective with David was to Create the Perfect Physical Vessel...  a Being that was nearly Perfect compared to Humans.

Weyland was then also working on a Project Called (Project Rook) that was to Upload Weylands Soul... his Memories, Experiences and Emotions into a AI... so that then when Weyland Perfected this.. he could combine this with a Synthetic Host and BECOMES IMMORTAL

It would have been Revealed in my Prometheus 2 that this Project was Flawed and Weyland Could not create a AI that could Handle Complex Emotions and Memories and so the Weyland AI would become Unstable and go Insane....   Thus Weyland Abandoned this Project..

He then resorted to Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings as a LAST Ditched Effort to gain Eternal Life from our Makers...  The End of my Prometheus 2.... the Vickers Android would be able to Activate Project Rook before her Final Encounter with TWO Yutani Geisha Synthetic Assassins (She defeats them but she is wounded and revealed she is a Synthetic and thus can-not inherit the Company).

But the Rook Project is Activated and Weylands AI is uploaded to the System...  which leads to the reveal that Weylands AI is running the Show as far as the Companies Agenda in the Franchise and most of Humanity is not in the know....  Bit Matrix i know ;)

So there are interesting ways AI can be involved with the Franchise, but the Problem is MOST Fans will only ever see that the Xenomorph is the Franchise... while Ridley Scott was trying to explore something else..

My Prometheus 3 however would have brought the Engineers more into it... 

 If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David. Bingo! Thus David and Synths could be considered valid people or persons.

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories We have no proof of this for humans but the notion of a soul for these points could be the "cloud"? It is at least real and verifiable.

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action). It seems this notion can easilly be put to bed: (2 1/2 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttmsiU-GZlg

daliens What is death? A basic definition is "a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life." If something lives on after that, could it really be dead?

daliens It seems there is no answer to what a soul is. We cannot see a picture of one or even have hard evidence. So it seems to come down to faith- which should not be confused with fact.

I lean towards no afterlife or soul for those reasons but subject matter like this makes for some of the most interesting sci fi discussions.

The problem to me is not to have David in the movie, he is alright but he is given too much of an importance. Ash was an important part and so was Bishop but they were never what the movies were about. Once they made the movie about the android and pushed everything else into the background that is when the movie got bad.

"Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?" - BD

That is one of the reasons but it is an important part.

"He was ambiguous in Prom, but in AC he becomes a hodge-podge of characteristics from Roy Batty (lines and is running around bare feet) and Hannibal Lecter, but not their redeeming qualities." - IgnorantGuy

He was better in Prometheus because then he was not totally evil, he was more in the gray zone but he became more evil in Alien Covenant which was a big mistake. What saved David in AC was the counterpart in Walter so we could compare those two and how they viewed things.

"I think the problem is that he has become the focal point." - DK

Yes! He has been like 65 to 70% of the story but that does not work. I can not connect with an evil android even though some think that is cool and new. Alien would have been the same thing if it would have been focused around Ash but thankfully it was not.

"... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?" - BD

New human characters that are interesting and well written there have been one or two well written human characters in each prequel this far but we need more than that. Think Alien 1 to 3, that is why those movies worked but then it fell apart for some reason.

"David may be an android but making the xeno and the eggs in the derelict his creation takes something away from that scene." - Ali81

Yeah since he is made by humans and he creates the eggs, that is a mistake and makes it less alien.

"… but is this something worth following..." - BD

If the movie do not have good human characters then it is nothing, especially if it is intended to be a horror movie. Well done horror movies are centered around interesting human characters (28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on). Imagine Night of the Living Dead being about a colony of Zombies and how they live their lives and so on, I would not watch that unfortunately that is the level that Alien Covenant reached.

"So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?" - BD

He went wrong when they made him into a Hanibal Lecter 2, in Prometheus he was more gray and that was better. Give him some sympathetic traits, I am not even sure if dictators are all through rotten even though that is not a reason to support them. They might be nice to their friends but that does not make them sympathetic, it is the same with David.
What is even worse is that there is a risk that he will be the creator of the original Xeno.

My complaint is not about Fassbender since he is a good actor, it is the material that is wrong and the total focus on David at the cost of everything else especially the Human characters.

"I also don't think that the films should center on his characters." - Ingeniero

A hundred times yes, I do not watch Alien movies for androids. I watch to see how well written human characters try to survive under extreme pressure and danger. This is the main thing what the movies are about if you ask me because without well done human characters then even the early movies would not have worked if you ask me.

He should die early in the movie so well made human characters would have to try to survive what ever nasty things that he has done. Maybe one of his monsters would turn on him and rip him into pieces like what happened to Bishop in Aliens or something. The difference is Bishop was nice and helpful and David is an asshole. I would like the next movie to include David being killed by one of his creations since it could make up for the total focus on David in Alien Covenant (at least if we look at how the second part became) and be sort of ironic.

To sum it up

    1. The total focus on David at the cost of everything else is wrong
    2. The way that he is portrayed, as a megalomaniac is bad
    3. That he will eventually be the one that is responsible for the original Xenomorph is something that I really dislike.
    4. It could be somewhat saved by killing him early in the next movie and let well made human characters take over no matter if he is redeemed or not.

Excellent Points Thoughts_Dreams

Characters are what is important, a Good Movie has to be believable it has to have you engaged with Characters, and this mainly works for Characters who you can connect with people who are like normal every day people.. where you can feel their Jeopardy.  "28 days Later, Dawn of the Dead, and so on"  this is the exact right point.. how many Zombie Movies do we have?  They been done to death and some are AWFUL others are Good, many are well OK The thing is since the Dawn of the Zombie Franchises... well movies it has been DONE TO DEATH Pun intended we see many movies come out that are well AVP2 in quality....  But then even in a Done to Death Zombie Genre you can have the odd Movie that makes it Fresh and Work... 28 days Later is a Perfect Example that shows a Done to Death Genre can be done again if you get the Characters and Story Right.

The Walking Dead Series showed how to change things up a bit too (but it has suffered some problems) at first it was about Survival Against Zombies and the Humans Jeopardy against the Dead... this started to be Done to Death so they came in with different Plots and Stories where it was the Cruel/Savage Side of Humanity that posed the Greater Threat... and Ridley Scott was tying to do the same with the Alien Franchise after the Beast had been done to Death.

Prometheus set up something interesting and FOX should have stuck with Ridley Scott... and not backed down to give Fans the Answers and Xenomorphs..  But the Problem was HOW they gave these Answers and how the Xenomorph was used that did not do the Origins Justice.

It LACKED the BALANCE needed but it appeared to be Too Much on DAVID and also his Character Arc and Change came across a bit to Evil and Broken for many.

There have been AI movies where the Viewers can feel for the AI, if they are done well then we can Sympathize with a Robot.  We can take Spielberg's 2001 A.I movie as a Example... Funny enough the Synthetic is called David and some of this movies ideas crop up in the Alien Covenant Marketing for Walter.

They need to make David have some Redeeming Qualities and try and change him from the Megalomaniac Dr Frankensiten to a Character we can get more Sympathy for, this is what i am attempting with my Alien Covenant Sequel..  where i am taking the Nature Boy Song Lyrics and Davids  "if we are kind, it will be a kind world" and running with this to give David a different Arc... but he will still be Wicked to a Degree, but only for those who try and Corrupt his Paradise so my David will come across a bit like the Abrahamic Religion GOD

As i agree the route David has taken now... is something that is not going to work too well.... Unless we see Walter Return to the Rescue but i think such a Plot would make the Franchise Prequel a bit too Super Hero Movie/Disney Fairy Tale....

The David as Creator and wanting to be a GOD/Megalomaniac Philosophy is fitting to the Prequels.. and what Prometheus was setting up, its execution was just a bit Flawed, because the Engineers, Xenomorph and Covenant Crew where all used like partial Sub-Plots.

David as the Xenomorph Creator does not sit well with MANY...

But there is a FIX which i have Proposed and is what i intend to explore IF/WHEN i get my Alien Covenant Sequel Ideas done..

This comes down to WHY did the Engineers Worship the Deacon Mural? My theory from years ago was those Engineers could not Procreate and so they encountered a Organism that had a Parasitic Life-Style that then allowed those Engineers to GIVE BIRTH to a Creation.  Those Engineers or a Faction saw this as intriguing and they saw it as Perfect... even so they saw a Engineer Born Abomination as more Perfect a Specimen/Organism than the Engineers were themselves and Choose to use its DNA to Seed/Evolve Worlds instead of their OWN. 

If we Run kind of with this Idea, even at a basic LEVEL... then what if the Engineers or those above them... see Davids Creation and see it as being even MORE Perfect than their Attempts...

They then see Synthetic David as being a more Perfect Being than the Engineers Creation Mankind...   So THESE beings then see the Perfection in David and his Creation and Attempt to make a  AMALGAMATION  of the TWO  and these beings thus CREATE the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph we get in ALIEN.

Thus David  is merely the Middle Man in the PROCESS and the Engineers Started this Process with the LV-223 Experiments/Deacon which David Perfects more with the Proto-Xenomorph and the Engineers or their Creators then PERFECT to the Bio-Mechanical Horror that we got in ALIEN

This is the Route i would be taking with my IDEAS... i feel its the best way to Save Face.... rather than U-Turn again that the Xenomorph is Thousands of Years Old and David Re-Created it... IF they go that route i feel they need to have Davids Xenomorph gain some different more Evolved Attributes.  But it could work......  If they however have David as the Creator of those Eggs in Alien with no input from the Engineers then i feel this would be a massive TURN OFF for the Fanbase.

@BigDave all you propose is damage control. They put all their eggs in the Fassbender basket and this is the result, a big mess.

I don't care to see the world David build, as we already know that his utopia will be a lie and that he will be finally overthrown by his own creation. No character willingly killing the one who loves is redeemable, but Maybe FoxDisney will think that they can make a profit with this story then good, I wish them good luck.

@Thoughts_Dreams, what you ask is impossible under Scott as he clearly sees David as his place holder in the Alien Universe, and ultimately cares only about him. And how could you have good human characters introduced in the last movie of a trilogy? The best you could hope for is that Tea and Danny survive and are fleshed out... They don't have to die if David alters the records and nobody believe them, and will probably use references to the Book of Daniel in which there is talk about visions of the ""beasts". (Ps I don't want this, as someone who liked Shaw, this want sit well with me).

And talking about Oram, wasn't he only a walking satire of current neo-protestant Christians... But he was the second in command and he must have been chest bursted like Kane in the original (the death of the captain happens in correlation to fire, and the third one in command is the one that kills the alien). Could we stop pandering to nostalgia?

 daliens You bring up some interesting thoughts. I have to disagree that group two is in fear. Or perhaps that fear is any living creature's fear of death- that would seem to apply to both groups. But it is a difficult topic to discuss when belief comes into play and assertions are made what people feel deep down- whatever that means.

To illustrate my point in this forum, I offer you CPT Piccard's unflinching reaction to brainwashing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKQQpPVifY

dk for me that link is not working...

ignorantGuy Hmm... Sorry. I suppose you could Youtube 

Star Trek: The Next Generation - Four Lights

@ignorantGuy

Certainly would be Damage Control as they have kind of written themselves into a Corner, RS may feel the route he had intended to take us should have been stuck too, rather than the route FOX felt the Fans Wanted.   some of the points you raise are EXACTLY the reason why Lindeloff said that doing a Literally Prequel is NEVER a good idea as you know where it will END and so all you are doing is connecting the DOTS.... and with the Route Alien Covenant has taken its going to be a case of Shoe-Horning and Spoon Feeding those DOTS. So i think we could ask 100 Fans on here HOW they think the Final Act or Acts of the Final Prequel leading to ALIEN would End... and i think 70% of us would roughly get it Totally Correct.

A ENGINEER and his Ship with Davids Creation who Gets infected with that said Creation...   The only Questions/Plot that has to be filled in (The Dots) are WHERE does the Engineer Ship Come from, HOW does Davids Creations get on that ship in Large Number, WHY does that Ship end up near LV-426  and then WHAT becomes of David.

IF the Curve-ball ends up that David is the Space Jockey i think thats the FINAL NAIL in the Coffin for the Mystery of the Space Jockey Scene.

So RIGHT now they are in a Tough Situation....  HOW do they Fix this?  IF they Kill off David... so we arrive Years after David arrives at Origae-6 and discover Davids Head where we can get a bit of information off him....  Then its HOW does this movie then continue IF it is still set to LINK directly to ALIEN?  

If a Human Ships returns after Davids Paradise has been set up and then Hell Breaks Loose, where the Colony is no more but a Handful of Survivors and David is just a Head for a short while...  and his Creations are Loose on the Planet...  This May be something that would please those who disliked David, it may even please the Fanboys but it could have the Connotation of being a Kind of ALIENS Re-Hash.

So the Route they have Written themselves into its going to be HARD to please every Fan....  I think RS invested a lot into the Philosophy regarding David and Creation and Engineers and he would not be willing to GIVE those up... Introducing the Engineers would be something to consider... but its introducing them and having Human Characters play a role too. 

So they are in a tough situation.

I think the whole Debate about the SOUL is something Ridley Scott wanted to get us to Question...

The Aspect of a SOUL as in the Spirit of a Person and that the Body is just a Vessel, is something that has been a part of Humanity long before a lot of the Religions.   Different Faiths and Cultures may all have differences but they all believed in a After-Life/Soul.

I was not intending this Point to became any kind of Faith vs Atheist debate but to look at it in context to Prometheus/Alien Covenant and as far as David.

In effect IF David can have his Soul Uploaded to a New Body, his Soul as in his Memories, Experiences and Emotions then to a Degree, Davids SOUL can Live on after the Destruction of his Material Body.  So this means in a way David has a Soul so to speak, his AI Program and Memories are in effect what the Human Spiritual Soul could be... Yes Different to some degree...  So with the AI Soul, we can see this is something that can LIKELY Live On, and On...  Which leaves the Question regarding our HUMAN Soul/Spirit as being something Ambiguous where its a Mystery  where in Context to David we have these options.

*If we have a Spiritual Soul so our Memories, Emotions and Experiences Live on after Death in another State where we can gain more Memories, Experiences then Potentially DAVID has kind of Similar if his Memories, Experiences can be Saved and Uploaded to a Computer or into a New Body..  So in a Pseudo way David ( Pseudo) Soul 1 vs Human Soul 1

*If there is Nothing when we die.... then it means David ( Pseudo) Soul 1 vs Human Soul 0  

So it really was about asking the Questions... which we dont have the 100% Answer for... and maybe a Movie that tries to give the Answer could Back-Fire and so i think its a case of and what RS was doing, is showing that David Could have a Pseudo) Soul but as far as Humans... Leave this a Mystery.

The other contexts of a Soul, come down to putting everything into something giving your ALL this is something a Human and Synthetic could do... For a Synthetic it would be Duty/Programing but with David it was RS intention to push the boundaries as far as his AI in that he can think and act for himself.

The Soul in other contexts is what determines the Nature and Actions of a Individual and these are Shaped by the Persons Experiences and Upbringing in LIFE.... were we can Ponder would TWINS brought up in different Environment going through TWO separate Lives lead to them both having very different Souls as far as if we consider how ones Outlook on Life and Others are Shaped.

So you could see someone who is kind, generous and sacrifices themselves for others... and consider they have a GOOD Soul, but another person is Cruel and Evil and Selfish and they thus have a WICKED Soul...   A Question then comes that are these people inherently the way they are... or is it their Life Experiences that lead to them being WHOM they are.    And in context to David we can certainly say this applies to him.... the Prequels Hint that potentially YES how David was treated and made to FEEL could have shaped his Personality/Agenda.