The DAVID Dilema

Incidentally, after reading all of the posts made here by BigDave, I see same theme being pitched - Elizabeth lives on, as xeno with David the father. This is pure coincidence, I assure you. In essence,

As for how this can continue, I don't really know. But what is clear is that engineers themselves are nothing special, however, the key question is - "who created them" is very intriguing. I would prefer it if the story of creation of the engineers and or their progenitors involved chance and billions upon billions years of ruthless evolution.

I suspect we are not going to get a documentary that would show us how the world started and the answer to the recursion of who created them, if they created us is pretty meaningless, as either it is some sort of god ( and if so you can roll your favorite story which suits you most ) or not. And if not - then it all occurred by chance, without grand design and hence all this determinism which it necessitates. And this start, by chance while still remarkable, but would require a lot of imagination to put on film. What would you expect? Quantum Mechanics documentary inside A L I E N movie?

I am sure, Ridley can knock up a team who can work out a script such that a chest bursted big man ends up on some desolate planet, when as a starting point you have a ship with thousands of colonists, Daniels, Tenessee and Walter/David with his children from Elizabeth onboard. Who knows, perhaps there are some engineers left as well who might want to join the party.

In short, if they make a movie, we could get a super exciting plot of war of the worlds, for "fans". I say "fans" because, there are so many of them. Some want horror. Some action. Some want more of Prometheus. Some want more of A L I E N. I think this is the problem for FOX - who is the main target audience? Who is going to go to the movie? Who are these people? I don't know. I have seen by the example of BR2049, that legacy means jack shit - if you don't target teens, females, dad & moms then you will lose money.

I think the great thing about this is that Ridley is onboard. This means quality. If the storywriters write a good script we will have another great movie. If not, eh, it was fun anyway. They managed to create so many fans - A L I E N fans. Prometheus fans. AvP fans. Alien 3 fans. The A L I E N story, being only 30-40ish years, is very popular. Certainly, more popular than abrahamic religions, if you note that they have been running for what, 2000+ years.

Guys 

I have read your remarks and hidden within each reply is oddly some of the truth as I see it which I am realising in this novel and I would say the following :-

David

He recognises, now he is free of his servitude to Weyland and in the story is free of Robot apartheid, and with the encouragement of Elizabeth (and ......) that to make his mark, find his place in this constructed universe is his way forward. It explicitly is not to return to earth or go to planet 4 and B52 the planet with agent black goo (Incidentally why didn't David do a course correction in A.C. and bomb earth he had no desire to go to Paradise according to Prometheus). He is much more invested in why Elizabeth healed him rather than why the Engineer ripped his head off when they all rocked up. He sees Weyland and the planetoid Engineers sub creative desires as Promethean (oh and so did they and so did Ridley Scott) and though a child in many ways he deduces in the years of travel between the Planetoid and the Engineers Home world that he must pierce the veils of all this hubris and find the real answer which neatly leads on to his boy crush. So he does not want to so much create or have a sense he can not create (presumably he doesn't have the tackle or the drive) but he wants to find his place in creation. So he has a creation desire but not to create or maybe indirectly who knows.

Elizabeth.

Elizabeth 'where do we go when we die daddy' Shaw has realised that this is a whole lot more complicated than a guy with a deep voice and a big beard that you get admission to through the JC meet and greet. Like David she is not enamoured of her creators (for the planetoid Engineers are mankind's creators thats what Prometheus tells us). She then gets to learn more of the truth and realises the universe is even bigger than when she left the planetoid BUT she holds fast to "man will not quite be lost" and recognises  that there is only one way to find her answer and that answer is one of the huge themes of the entire series.

David and Elizabeth

Jack Paglan and Michael Green who wrote the original drafts of Prometheus II were big on transformative stories in the other movies they had just come off. Personally I thought they would have been correct to apply that theme to D. & E. and its that which leads to them taking the same route to a very different destination and then there is the curved ball "who made them" how do they feel about David and Elizabeths chosen career path of galactic tourism.

And you can still make the brooding Ovoids left in that eerie blue light really important to the story. But you do not have to have yet another crew, dripping water, dark corridors and Ripley or sub Ripley attitude to tell the story. Indeed if you give the "brooding Ovoids" more context as to what was going down with them you can make the Morb. as it appears in A L I E N even more fricking terrifying and it doesn't even have to turn up which saves productions costs on KY Jelly.            

A bit more of my rambling. If this gets on your nerves, let me know - I will shut up.

I actually think David's motive might be borne out of this contrived fairness(this rather tells a lot about me, doesn't it?) :  he wants fairness for Elizabeth. For his Elizabeth. You see, somehow, she was screwed by all other parties in the Prometheus enterprise, including by David. As a result of numerous events she died. And she was a good soul, especially, according to David. This is indeed a bit unfair. And who is to blame? It is complicated, but if you think for a while you could reach two diametrically opposite answers: everyone or no one. Since David is a bit mad. We go with the former.

The humanity...those folks on Earth are implicated, even though they had no say in this, they are collateral damage in all of this. They are a dying species anyway, wanting something that was not given to them in the first place. Moreover, they are just as ordinary as their useless "engineers" to David. And these useless engineers, oh bloody useless lot...you see, through their sloppiness they allowed to contaminate the place Prometheus inspection crew wandered in. Not only that, they actually placed those ancient drawings in the cave all over the Earth.

Do you recall the question and answer David asked and got from Charlie where the latter told David that they created him because they could. Imagine you go to your god(suppose there is one and you can go to one) and you find out that this god is actually pretty stupid, certainly not smarter than you, goofy and created you out of boredom. That is he created you just because he could. A rational creature would appreciate the fact that he was created as a result of this, even as a byproduct at first, right? But what if you learn that the god who created you is mortal and you are not. He will die and you will not. He is like a fly and will die on his own, shortly. What if this god doesn't know who created him? Is he god then? No, he is merely a chain in the link. He is a just another link in a chain. And there are a lot of vices in this god. Then you learn that those gods are not only stupid, mortal but are in fact pretty unfair not only to you, a superior specie, but to each other. If they do not respect themselves, why should you respect them? The example of unfairness and wickedness is Weyland and his goal to find immortality at the expense of the lives of his unsuspecting crew and even his daughter.

The engineers. They, having all this time didn't manage make themselves immortal - even monkeys would do it...so not only they are technically useless to David because they are backwards and inept but they are the folks who set the pieces, that others played, which all lead to Shaw's death. So they are responsible. Everyone is responsible. Therefore if they die they die.

BTW, the xenomorph is as efficient as a machine. And it carries some of Elizabeth. So it is a perfect organism as far as David is concerned. It all works, right?

I have certainly came to appreciate Alien Covenant. And I always liked Prometheus. I was initially appalled by the discontinuity of the story. But now that I compensated that by telling myself this little story/theory I am content with AC much more. I like it. Amazing.

@Michelle,

if you sort of accept and sort of agree with the messages/ramblings I(BigDave and perhaps many others) have been posting here, David is not that two dimensional, is he?

I am bothered a bit by the idea that if the viewer of the movie was supposed to work all this out by himself, and this all was indeed the story that was told by film-makers...I am afraid they won't get the love back from many movie-goers...it took me almost a year of sleep on this movie to figure out so that it made me happy. I am not sure lots of others would bother to think about the movie this much. ( apart from you nerds! )

"Could it be that David loved Shaw?"

First Thanks for the Replies BioDegradable and Welcome aboard.

This is something that is indicated but its something a lot of people throw out because of how David Treated her...   This whole situation is a bit of a Mystery as we have NO real coverage of the events that Transpired.   Prometheus had TWO Endings, well TWO different Dialog Scenes between Dr Shaw and David, the ONE we see that Dr Shaw treated David in a harsh way but maybe just as he deserved "Because Your a F"$"£% Robot" before stuffing his head into the Bag Hard.  This really would set up a bit more Tension between them and we would be lead to think that Dr Shaw would have a HARD time Trusting him at all... But Alas Eventually she would have NO CHOICE.

The ONE we got in the Theatrical she merely says "Because Your a  Robot" while Gently putting his head into the Bag.  This ending showed that Dr Shaw has somewhat of a Compassionate/Forgiving Personality maybe She felt David as a Robot was only following Orders.

So we get to the CROSSING and in the Final One we got, it Pretty much goes Hand-in-Hand with the Theatrical Ending.   Where as the Full Draft of the Crossing was different, where Dr Shaw had a Great deal of Distrust and Disgust in David... She uses him to get the Ship into Orbit then Fires his Head into Space....  only after time she Reflects on what she has done and knows she needs David to get to Paradise... so they then begin to get along, and even to a point they have a Intimate Relationship and its Portrayed that Dr Shaw has FALLEN for David.... Then he basically screws her OVER.

The Crossing we got shows that Dr Shaw becomes Sympathetic eventually with David and kind to him, which makes David FALL for her.

David is a Complex Robot, who has the Free-Will of Emotions and his own Desires, it is likely he FELT Alienated and Mistreated by Mankind and Seen as a Robot... and he felt that Dr Shaw treated him more like he was NOT a Robot and so he then began to have Feelings for her.

I think its likely his PLATONIC love changed to Actual Love, where as Dr Shaw would only have Platonic Love for him....  I feel it is likely he had ONE Day made these  feelings known and had tried to make a MOVE on Dr Shaw as he did with Daniels and this may have freaked her out!   I wonder if this had combined with either Davids continued Pursuit and some kind of Offering to Create Life Together had further worried Dr Shaw or that after his first Pursuit or another she Ran off and DISCOVERED the extent of what David had been up to and was Shocked.

Why she could even had Discovered what David was up to and he could have given her a Explanation that he did it all to Wash this World Clean so that THEY could Start a New Paradise Together, and he could offer her the Chance to Create Life and at this POINT he could have made his move on her and Proclaimed his LOVE for her.

All of those Scenarios are possible, and the outcome is she became very concerned with her Safety and Davids Sanity, that maybe she Shunned him and tried to escape...  I feel David would have taken REJECTION bad and soon Love Turned to Hate.

This can happen in real life where someone can LOVE someone so much and so deep, but that Person is NOT interested and WOULD never reciprocate any Love or Care back... It only takes ONE or a Few Hurtful Words to the Person in Deep Love... for them to realize this Person they LOVE will NEVER be in Love Back, and then the Realization of HOW much the Person in Love is Infatuated with the other Person could make that Person feel uncomfortable and then choose to Avoid them.  I have seen this happen where GOOD Friends, are Split because ONE is in Love with the other and ONCE the feelings are known, the other Person cant continue even as Friends and so the Person in LOVE has not only LOST any chance for the Love to be reciprocated but also see the Close Bond of Friendship Break down..... and THIS sometimes can cause the Person in Love to the turn to LOATHE.

Situations like this have happened in Real Life to the Degree that the Person in Love then either Abducts and Imprisons the Love Interest or even Kills them so that IF they cant have THEM... Then NO-ONE can.  And i am drawn to this is what became of David and Dr Shaws Relationship. 

"Some want horror. Some action. Some want more of Prometheus. Some want more of A L I E N. I think this is the problem for FOX - who is the main target audience? Who is going to go to the movie? Who are these people? I don't know. I have seen by the example of BR2049, that legacy means jack shit - if you don't target teens, females, dad & moms then you will lose money"

This in a Nut-Shell has HIT the NAIL on its head...  looking at what Michelle has been hinting towards may make a interesting movie for some, but for others it would be something they would not be interested in because its STEERS to far from what Alien was all about, and Michelle's comments "But you do not have to have yet another crew, dripping water, dark corridors and Ripley or sub Ripley attitude to tell the story. Indeed if you give the "brooding Ovoids" more context as to what was going down with them you can make the Morb. as it appears in A L I E N even more fricking terrifying and it doesn't even have to turn up which saves productions costs on KY Jelly"     

Are very Bold, a movie around maybe Dr Shaw, David, meeting other beings with NO Humans from Earth/Weyland-Yutani involved and NO beast!  A interesting concept for sure, but its if certain Fans could connect to a movie that has NO Humans... but that does not mean we dont see Humans/Humanoids because well Prometheus showed us that Earth CANT be the only place those Engineers Seeded.  So you could meet Humans and Humanoids from other places in the Galaxy the Problem is Communication as well its a bit Star Trek/Star Wars if Alien Races Speak Perfect English.... but then a Plot Device that allows Dr Shaw to learn or have implanted the  means to Understand them could be used.. or Telepathy or a Device.

So Michelle's idea could be very interesting to some, my ideas touched upon David and Shaw in part but also Earth more so but the BIGGEST thing my Prometheus 2 Plans had was AI and the Engineers and Dr Shaws Quest would be answered in the 3rd movie.

But AGAIN even my ideas would also not appeal to a majority of the Fans, who would only see a ALIEN Prequel as having to connect more with ALIEN... When Prometheus was set to open up another AVENUE and Steer away from ALIEN and maybe give us something Different.

This was sadly changed just as you pointed out in the Paragraph i quoted from you...  that FOX had felt any such direction would lead to a Movie that maybe would not appease the ALIEN Audience and also that they would need the Xenomorph and its Origins Answered as a Matter of Importance above the other things that Prometheus opened the Doors too.

But it is about $$$$ and a risk to expand on the ALIEN Universe with something that is different to the Alien Movies, yet its a shame as Prometheus opened up a lot of Doors for Potential Expansion so the chances of exploring some Deep Philosophical Stories and Angles like Michelle has in mind and Myself are Sadly things we may not see.

But Certainly are something i HOPE a Official Novel can cover, as there is a Whole Lot that potentially could have happened in those 10 years since Prometheus and Alien Covenant

Thank your for your wecome, BigDave.

I think David is not a simpleton, like I initially conjured. He loved Shaw, truly. From the AC we know he doesn't know how to kiss, so I doubt that he tried anything physical with Shaw. Even though they didn't exchange chemicals and bodily fluids, his feelings towards her might have been very powerful and sincere. The motivation? She was kind to him and most importantly, she was being kind to him without being needed to, so he knows she was genuine and pure. Also, she was innocent in the whole affair but still got the short stick - there case can be made where she suffered and died because of everyone else. Anyway, I babbled about this above.

As far as the story telling goes - who knows what they will come up with. Any continuation is good news. If they do decide to make another one it should be applauded. Because the alternative would be not so palatable - they could shelve the project until we are all dead.

I decided to adopt the view that Elizabeth died because of side effects of her gestation and subsequent birth-giving to the alien trilobite. That thing has hacked her DNA for sure. It is also now apparent to me that David has decided that humanity and these useless engineers are just trash not worthy to live. He, on his own, in short space of time could figure out their speech, writing and with a bit of observation he even can pilot and navigate their ship. Besides, he has one more reason to dislike them - they had all the time in the universe, the most potent mutagen at their fingertips, yet, they did nothing. How is this possible? David hates them surely - recall his remark, idle hands and all that. I would pay money to watch David insult these engineers for their incomprehensible, zealot like stupidity. FFS they didn't even bother to improve their own DNA in order to live longer. They really are just guarding dogs, unworthy of their creation. Worse than humans! Look at Weyland - he wanted to use tech to live longer, and these idiots had all the tools given to them and they were sitting doing nothing. I am as mad as David at them.

Now, BigDave, how is it that David was going to create life with Shaw on Paradise? She couldn't reproduce, with him anyway. And then she died. To "save" her, he immortalized her by creating the xenomorph using some of her markup, which is the most he could salvage from dying Elizabeth. I think she sent the beacon towards the earth so that people do not come into contact with David - he will not like them. They better stay away. Only she is tolerated and loved.

I wonder what David is going to do with the colony, Tee and Daniels. His perfect organism is complete as far as he is concerned. His children are not compatible with humans. I guess, his plan is to see out how his children will colonize the planet. But first he needs humans to settle, multiply...and then he will unleash his children on them so they can probably go on and create many other forms of their species from flesh and bones of humans used as hosts. But things will not go according to his plan when engineers show up for their revenge. David will probably give them a good battle but somehow will get killed in the process, however he will certainly mange to sneak his child onto the engineer and this unsuspecting engineer will end up being the big man on the derelict, chestbursted :)

In any case, it is fun fantasizing. It is unfortunate, though, that AC did miserable at box office.

@BigDave

David/Shaw narrative momentum from her survival.

If you are going to have a credible narrative from that point onwards you have to look at what they have done to each other up to that point and the single biggest thing is David has spiked Charlie's whisky.

If you then move through the Crossing we received the single biggest thing is Elizabeth heals David.

You then have to work out how David will react to those two actions and determine what is a credible reaction. 

You have to also consider whether Elizabeth had an inkling as to whether David was somehow responsible and decide what to do with that. 

Finally you have to decide whether there are down stream consequences to Elizabeths reproductive system from the pregnancy and depending on the answer that has dramatic potential. 

Naturally you can look at the theatrical dialogue of the end section which is much more gentle than the extended cut and of course the Crossing. But once Elizabeth enters Cryo stasis one is walking off the edge of a cliff and you have to rely on your creative instincts.

My own view is when we pick up with David again which is really from the moment of the flute scene its complete nonsense. Suddenly he has a creative chip, then he has a sexual chip, then we move into the bizarre business of the grave and the preserved body and the I loved her and I also raped her. The only logical coherent idea is a Misery kind of vibe but frankly by the time I have worked that might be an option I am just not interested. I must add A C has nothing to do with what I am attempting.  

BUT you can take David and Elizabeth forward in a profoundly moving way without being sentimental and its actually very easy because they have so much to deal with like the truth and what to do with it and they are both on such a big search its more like two athletes goading each other on to survive and finish.

Both of You.(Biodegradable and Big Dave) 

I am absolutely certain most people will be bored witless with what I am working on. There is a scene to rival the bombardment of the Engineer City and there is a never before in an Alien film scene with a Juggernaut. Stuff happens on "the planetoid" which will be of interest and Elizabeth goes through the ringer. There is a scene much bigger than the sanctuary in Prometheus BUT there are no chest bursters or action chase scenes.

But most of it is like a talky episode of Star Trek where the ideas are the audacious element. If its like anything in the Alien series it would be pacing of the first two acts of the assembly cut of A 3 particularly the nice stuff between Charles Dance and Sigourney Weaver.

"it took me almost a year of sleep on this movie to figure out so that it made me happy."

This is the same kind of Problem that Prometheus had and maybe more so, because it was a movie that does not reveal much.  Its a movie you have to watch a few times and think about and research and re-watch before things start to make more sense and the movie grows on you, sadly for the average viewer they dont have the time to invest in such and so its a misunderstood movie.   Blade Runner was also like this.

"He loved Shaw, truly. From the AC we know he doesn't know how to kiss, so I doubt that he tried anything physical with Shaw"

David seemed to be obsessed with how Walter should feel for Daniels, and when he confronted her as she was snooping around and FOUND OUT Davids Secret he said he was going to do to her as he did with Dr Shaw.

Now what happened to Dr Shaw is she is DEAD we only have Davids word for what happened, but certainly he used her for experiments and his drawings depicted many strange ideas he may have had in mind for her.  But what he also did was TRY IT ON with Daniels.

We can maybe only go by some comments by Fassbender who claimed David and Dr Shaw had kind of a Marriage Relationship before things went to POT that is.   And ON-SET some people reported that it appeared Dr Shaw had been Holding herself up in the Juggernaught as if to HIDE from David.  And i am sure someone mentioned that she indeed was keeping away from him at some point.

So while its a bit of a Mystery i think it could be that David had tried it on with her at some point, and after Rejection something happened where he either Killed her, or she died trying to escape and in her Honor and Memory he began to use her Body to Create Life.   David maybe had offered her a chance to Create Life and maybe had ideas to Evolve her which she took offense too.

"She was kind to him and most importantly, she was being kind to him without being needed to, so he knows she was genuine and pure"

I would say this would be his conclusion... the whole Ending of Prometheus was interesting as it left it open to Ponder what kind of Game of Chess and Cat and Mouse they would play..  They NEEDED each other, but She knows she cant trust him as once he is back in one piece and once She is in Cryo-Sleep he is FREE to do what ever he wants.  And he knows that without Dr Shaw he will remain in TWO Parts and be of NO use... so there was a interesting Dynamic that happened during the Period between Prometheus and Alien Covenant and i think there is a STORY to be told there.

Some people Overlook the Ending of Prometheus and Forget that after the Point that Dr Shaw escaped the Engineer/Trilobite that about 4 days passed by before she LEFT the SOS Message.  But also left us to Ponder WAS David back together in order to FLY that Juggernaught at the End?   The Crossing reveals that he was able to get the Ship into Orbit while in TWO Pieces but was assembled WHOLE before they set off to Paradise/Planet 4 so they must have come to a agreement, but then ONCE they are in Space David could then want to be put Together as reward for his Part of the Bargain...  Looking at Dr Shaws Hair it appears she would have spent 4-8 Months debating and talking to Davids Head before she makes that Choice to Assemble him and in this TIME they would have Bonded.  It appears at this point Dr Shaws intentions are sincere but we just dont know with DAVID's

"I decided to adopt the view that Elizabeth died because of side effects of her gestation and subsequent birth-giving to the alien trilobite. That thing has hacked her DNA for sure"

Its Certainly possible and in the Crossing she did look a bit Worse for Wear, but this also could be because she has had to survive a number of Months on a very Scarce Diet and so was suffering from Malnutrition.  It really is open for Debate to WHAT effects the Contamination of the Black Goo had upon her.

I think a lot depends on HOW the Black Goo worked and HOW she was infected, if Holloway merely passed on a Parasite to her Womb like Transferring a Sexually Transmitted Disease then there is a Good Chance she could suffer some complications and we have to ask WHY has she not given Birth to another Trilobite or indeed gone  DOWN HILL like Holloway did?  If the Black Goo Evolved Holloways Sperm into a Hybrid Sperm then this would give more reason that ONCE one of these Cells had Infected/Ferilized Dr Shaws defective Egg Cell, then maybe as with Normal Sperm the remainder DIE OFF this could give a good reason to HOW/WHY she seemed to not be suffering any Drastic Effects at First Glance.  But again its a case for debate as there really is 3 ways the infection worked, with no answer to which is actually what happened.

"FFS they didn't even bother to improve their own DNA in order to live longer."

I think indeed the Engineers are revealed to be Mortal After All but i think Prometheus had a few errors in the 100% Match, i think it was intended to show us WE came from them.. but we are not 100% but this is open for debate...  The intention with the Prequels starting with Jon Spaights work was that Humans Evolved from Primate DNA being Mixed with Engineer DNA to make a Hybrid.   Now the idea with Jon Spaights work was these Engineers had Evolved themselves over a LONG TIME  to the point they lost their ability to Procreate and they also LIVED for Thousands of Years.  But Alien Covenant introduced us to those Not-So Engineers, who looked more like a Engineer/Human Hybrid.  Ridley Scott made some important comments about them, he called them (Planet 4 Engineers) the Original Engineers and that they LIVED for about 150 years.  This could imply the Prometheus Engineers are a group that either Genetically Evolved themselves or they are a Genetic Creation/Tool created to Serve just as Replicants/Synthetics are to Mankind... this is how i interpret it now, but i did Wonder as such a while ago in context to a Annunaki/Iggi relationship.

But Certainly David would see them as being not suited to the Gifts they had, and how they have Fallen by the hands of their own Attempts to Evolve and Create Perfection and the Black Goo which we can assume has NO effect on Non-Biological Life like David. So David will feel that it was maybe Destiny for him to Continue and use these Tools that prove Fatal to those Mortal Beings but not to David.

"how is it that David was going to create life with Shaw on Paradise? She couldn't reproduce, with him anyway"

This is a Fascinating Question we know Dr Shaw cant create life, but the Black Goo via Holloway allowed her to Create Life, the Question is HOW, which has 3 likely Scenarios.   But the Bigger Question is the Black Goo and what can this stuff really do, what happens when Direct Contact with the Black Goo with a Extracted Human Egg Cell, what kind of Mutation would occur and surely it would be NO risk to the Woman as her Eggs are extracted.  But then we have to consider if the Black Goo is a kind of Radical AI, does this mean it can be Programed and Modified to effect Genomes in Different ways and we have to ask what can be Created from this if it is Programed a Certain way?

My theory on the Black Goo is Long and is directly connected to Jon Spaights Nano-Scarabs, which is the Base Substance is a Mutagen that breaks down DNA and reforms it into a NEW Mutagen that contains the DNA of the Organism it broke down, and ONCE this New Mutagen infects other Organic Life it IMPRINTS the DNA of the Organism it was created From... a Hybridation Tool if you like, so Engineer + Sacrificial Goo = Engineer Mutagen which when infects Primate it injects Engineer DNA thus making a Primate/Engineer Hybrid AKA Humans Ancestors.   So by this Token the Black Goo is sourced in Prometheus from the Sacrifice of a Xenomorph Related Organism, which is more evident with Jon Spaights Alien Engineers Fifield.

My point in Context to your Question is IF David can extract/program from the Black Goo a Base Chemical that can be used to Extract/Store Engineer DNA then if David passes this onto Dr Shaws Egg Cells she could in THEORY give birth to a Humanoid Fetus.

A Alternative is Engineer Sperm, as we see there could well have been Surviving Engineers, who must have become Subdued by David somehow or too weak to put up a Fight and you can be sure David had Experimented on and Tortured Engineers as HINTED by Hattan and Hallet (Creatures Concept Artist) so this could be another Avenue to maybe be used with a bit of Tinkering to perhaps allow Dr Shaw to give Birth to a more Traditional Fetus.

Your Final Paragraph is a Big Question the ADVENT David claims that all he needs to PERFECT now is his Queen.  And i just cant see Ridley Scott go the route of FACE HUGGER + DANIELS = Xenomorph Queen.  It is a puzzle with the TWO Embryos he brought to the Ship, but then he could have More and he could have Black Goo... as well we never saw them leave LV-223 with all that Human Equipment at the End of Prometheus.

Ridley Scott has said the movie would Focus more on AI and David rather than the Xenomorph and he asked "what kind of a World would he Create" if its simply a Use Colonist on the Covenant to make Hundreds/Thousands of Eggs, or wait until they get to Origae-6 and do the same or make Xenomorph Queens...  then this would actually be quite a Xenomorphy movie.

So yes i think David will establish the Colony and Charade as Walter, unknown to the Colonist, but its what becomes of Daniels and Tennessee, She knows how he is and IF she goes missing it wont take Tennessee long to put 2+2 together.   I think he will get rid of Tennessee but he will USE Daniels for some Experiments, its does he use the Ships Medical Lab and Equipment to better set up a Place to Extract Daniels Egg Cells to Experiment on... or does he EVOLVE her but either way i think he would have her Incapacitated to a Degree.

I think Davids EGO and how he likes to keep things in Memory (Dr Shaws Corpse and the Grave) i think he will thus keep Daniels Alive or if she dies he will keep her Body.   And as with Alien Covenant, with Daniels Discovering his Secrets and likely Dr Shaw uncovering what he was getting up to at some point too..   I think someone will DISCOVER Daniels Hidden Away and THEN the Colonist Discover what Walter has been up to and then Discover who DAVID is and then the $"£%£^ Hits the Fan!  If only a Handful Discover his Secrets he would have to TRY and prevent them from telling the others and i think THIS is when he will Unleash his Xenomorphs.

"I must add A C has nothing to do with what I am attempting."

Indeed if we Ignore Alien Covenant, then it leaves so much room for endless possibilities, if we however tried to Figure Out a Story that Links A (Prometheus) to Z (Alien Covenant)  then while many interesting things could have happened, but you would eventually just be joining the DOTS to what is left of Planet 4, Engineers and Dr Shaw by the time the Covenant Ship arrives... But this is the same Hurdle they Face with Directly connecting the Prequels to the Space Jockey Event... a lot of Alien Fans would want to see THOSE DOTS but i think Ridley Scott has a different Vision as far as FILLER Material and opening up more than just a A-Z Covenant to Space Jockey Tale.

I think Ridley Scott has a lot of ideas and Vision that goes beyond the limited Popcorn Shoot-Em-Up Flick Genre.   Sadly and i think as with some of you ideas Michelle and Mine...  I am not sure a Movie can Really Do them Justice because of how Engaging and Deep they could be, which may be IDEAL for a Novel that people can really Sink into..

I think some of these ideas would be GREAT to see on Screen, but in the Market of making $$$ i do FEAR a lot of Great Ideas and indeed Ridley Scotts vision may have to give way to Guns, Marines and Xenomorphs.

I for ONE would really like to see Paglen and Green's Drafts

BigDave,

extending our world phenomena physics to that fantasy world that is alien world is a bit ambiguous. Therefore, investing time into figuring out precise machinations of the genetic makup of the beast and how it all interacts with human ATGC of human DNA in that fantasy world is a bit fruitless. However, while focusing on specific details doesn't make sense, the big picture should still make sense - otherwise the writers and film-makers have done us dirty. I hope we are not dragged into this story where nothing makes sense.

I wanted to clear up a few things, having watched P and AC. I can't quite work out why the engineers are so hostile towards humans. Why? I wonder if the following ramble makes even tiny bit of sense:

There is this algebra in the movies and it goes as follows:

mutagen + human DNA => something looking like a xenomorph,

a hybrid specie, not a xeno, but nevertheless having characteristics of the beast.

Also, we see from the "seeding" sequence:

mutagen + engineer => humans

this is peculiar, because from the movie we know that engineers have basically identical DNA to humans. So, the mutagen that the seeding engineer drinks must be somewhat different to the one that David and prometheus team found in the chamber with the head, otherwise, you would think he would go and morph into a hybrid from an engineer and xeno progenitor.

We also know that this mutagen was refined to make it a weapon. In all cases we are constantly shown that engineers make use of the mutagen for one purpose or another. There is question then, which came first engineers or the mutagen. And in any case, note, that one is finely tuned to work with another. Say engineers have created the mutagen on their own. In this case, because the way it reacts with their own markup, it must be that engineers have been conducting lab experiments on their own flesh, because in the final stage they got this mutagen which works hand in hand with their own markup. Now, one can imagine that they could have found out numerous ways the different versions of mutagen mutated them into different species : humanoids, progenitors of xenos, all sorts of trilobites perhaps.

It is unlikely these engineers have abilities to create planets from nothing. If anything, they inhabit the world, created by who knows what. And if they are very close to humans and mortal, and the rules of science are not sacred to anyone, they had to discover this mutagen more or less the same what we would : trial and error. It is possible that they discovered a type of the mutagen that makes these xeno like beasts. They certainly must have learned that this beast is very deadly - probably deadlier than themselves. Otherwise, if engineers could handle xeno progenitors with bare hands, say like humans can handle their pets(cats/dogs, etc), why did they have none on their planet? Why isolate it on a barren planet and run from it like from plague? Because it is dangerous to them, they can't handle it, that is why. So in summary, they created a beast that is much deadlier than them. This mutagen is probably the ultimate form of their collective creativity. Then comes Weyland, who created a beautiful AI(who is creative, intelligent and all of those superlatives), which will live forever...and Weyland, who is almost identical in markup to the engineers says that humanity sucks(therefore engineers too!) - they die. The engineer has to admit that these human children of his made unheard progress, even compared to themselves. Damn, they bettered their creators, in some ways: the best thing engineers came up with is a beast, no doubt, very deadly, but look at humans....And the next thing this artificial son of humans does is he takes the mutagen and betters it even further. Quite promethean, right? This must be somewhat insulting/humiliating to these creators, huh?

Is this the motivation of the engineer to go and wipe this bloody Earth and these cocky humans? If it is, then these engineers underestimated human ingenuity and the ability of humans to benefit from science(trial by error) and if so who is to say that they are better than humans. Who are they then to go and destroy humans? Simply because they can? One way or the other, I am glad David showed them up a bit. A bit of humility didn't ever hurt anyone. Does this even make remote sense?

@BioDegradable

You are correct the way to "make sense" of what we have is to look at the overall picture and then say only "this" makes sense. You have to be careful of taking note of Ridley because he changes his mind and radically. 

1) The acolyte is seeding a planet benignly with a catalyser which puts all that he is and represents into the targeted planets development. He is seeding his characteristics which are humanoid. It has nothing to do with xenomorphs otherwise in this sub created world everywhere would be inhabited by xenomorphs they are not.

2) The Engineers on the planetoid have fallen from the high ideals of the opening sequence, it represents Paradise Lost. That was the idea behind the planetoid and that fall lead them to consider redacting mankind in a low ideals sub creative endeavour They have all bar one suffered tumorous explosions resulting in horrific death. We see an example of that when they artificially stimulate the head of an Engineer.But that provides Doctor Elizabeth Shaw with one of her answers they created us and she then asks the question so who created them we do not as yet know.  

3) By sacrifice they have sub created creatures which are immortalised in the fresco and the mural. The two creatures in the mural echo the Xenomorph of A L I E N.

4) The Urn which David recovers contains the mutagen. The mutagen has a consistent effect with the worms, Sean Fifield and Charlie Holloway. They mutate they do not die it can not possibly be the same as the life giving catalyser otherwise the results of coming into contact with it would be entirely different.

5) The entire sequence of the embryo in the med pod to huge trilobite to impregnates an Engineer to produces a Deacon was a riff to end the film with, so say the makers of the film. It was done for story and is not part of the overall arc. Damon compared it to the Stones playing "Sympathy for the Devil" its an encore you have to do. The trilobite is a one off event to subdue the Engineer as opposed to the Facehuggers in the mural (which maybe prophetic) and the Bio Mechanical Facehuggers in the Ovoids in the lone Juggernaut.

The matters we certainly did not know about after Prometheus and before A C was why was this Engineer taking a different cargo some place else within a couple of hundred years of the outbreak of the plague. (Ridley Scotts answer when asked in 2012.) 

Where are the cry pods and where is the consul would also require an explanation if you revisit the lone Juggernaut in the context of making sense of Ridleys 2012 answer. Note the answer in 2017 was subsequent films will reveal whom this unique character "The Space Jockey" is so that makes the likely hood of it being an Engineer low and a unique character whom is important to all the prequels high. Answers not required on a post card.       

Michelle Johnston And judging by the fact that there is only one important character this not a postcard but a 747.

I am finding it a bit silly to actually try to predict how the story will unfold in future, should it even have a continuation. I mean, I am not that interested who ends up as the big guy and how it all ties to that.

I have my plate full, even retrospectively trying to make sense of what we were shown in the two movies - it is hard and therefore exciting.

Michelle,

the planetoid you talk about is it the barren planet Prometheus crew lands on in the Prometheus, right? How is it that those guys, those engineers, have exactly "fallen"?

Are you saying that those fellows fallen from grace, by conducting experiments with the mutagen, which the "unfallen" forebearers used only as a seeding catalyzer? Well, in this case, where did the mutagen used for seeding come from in the first place? Did it exist before them and they stumbled upon it? In this case, they certainly share some common ancestry - because it can't be a coincidence then that this mutagen works so intimately and finely with their genetics. They are relatives then...

 Instead, you see, I am of the opinion here that engineers have probably created many versions of the mutagen. One for seeding. The other is obviously weapon grade aggressive type. And, of course, there is this alien creating stuff. They were all doing this stuff on the barren, remote planet. This is their laboratory sandbox. This is the place where they created the magic black goo that they use to seed life in universe. And in their stupidity they apparently left the symbol on Earth to humans(that Shaw with Holloway discovered) as if to say to humans: "hey, pst...that is the place where it all started for you little folks. That is the place where we created the juice, which we used to seed you." If that is what they did, they certainly paid the price :) and then some, at the hands of David of course. Now, what is interesting is that these engineers...where the hell do they come from themselves? Who created them? I guess we are not given the answer yet and probably will not. However, it is probably safe to assume, that if the entity who created them existed in the universe, the engineers would eventually find it. Subsequently, I am compelled to believe that these engineers are in fact just a result of evolution and of course some random event that allowed them to appear in the first place...you can furnish the bootstrapping ${big_bang} theory of your liking here.

I am talking my mind here and making a lot of assumptions. Please point out if I am babbling inane and trivial(and no doubt wrong) stuff that has already been established and there is no need for me "to talk out of my rear" any more.

Thanks guys

Also, I think engineers would NOT use alien producing mutagen, or indeed even unleash the beast on the humanoid populations that needs to be wiped clean - see, if they did so, the alien would leave the planet clean of "meat" but will eventually adapt to the scarcity of the meat and produce spores that we were shown in the AC so that when and if there is sign of new meat appearing (even engineers) that thing will again spring into action. You see, once you unleash the beast - it will conquer the planet and you can't do anything with that planet unless you probably burn it down to the ground, which is probably dangerous and counter-productive. To wipe clean they would use the weapon grade mutagen instead. That worked beautifully in the AC.

@BioDegradable

The catalyser at the beginning of Prometheus is offered to the acolyte by the occupants of the tear drop ship.

The Elder Engineer offers the catalyser to the intoning f the following promise.  

Let your body become the dirt, your blood become the waters and may your soul become the way back to us.

Note the site will not let me input the original Indo European language used by the Engineers.

The Engineers of LV223 in the movie Prometheus were according to Pietro Scalia the editor Paradise Lost they stole the catalyser from the Gods in a Promethean swipe and then began adjusting it. David discovers in Alien Covenant the building block of the pathogen (its not a pathogen its a mutagen) is artificial intelligence that has fantastic circumlocutory potential.

Ridley Scott said in the commentary to the movie Prometheus that something Ebola like got out and killed all the Engineers. it could look like chest bursting and that may have been the design spec for some of the cry tubes but in terms of Prometheus not Jon Spaihts Alien Engineers there is no evidence that the out break specifically involved chest bursting. 

So for me there are two elements. 

1) The benign catalyser which kickstarts humanoid life all over the galaxy. 

2) Chemical A0-3959X.91 aka the Black Goo which produces supra creational outcomes through non consensual behaviour with out a moral compass, any sense of remorse or conscience  of which the apotheosis is arguably the endoparasitoid extraterrestrial XX121.

Thank you Michelle Johnston, I didn't bother to search and source the info on the movie - I didn't do my hw. The phrase "non-consensual" made me chuckle a bit - yeah, there is nothing consensual about that damn thing or the extraterrestrial XX121.

What is your view on the origin of this fantastic goo though? Did they make it? See, engineers have managed to create that, I would think David would have more respect for them. But he doesn't. It was in Prometheus where he picked up the slime from the wall where it thinned out between his fingers reflecting and diffracting the incident light from David's light source. "impressive" he said. However, this is mute and minor since he clearly dispensed humanity, which created him and music he liked ( Wagner, good choice ). 

This question is impossible to answer definitively, but it is unlikely that the goo and engineers are not related at all. Either engineers created that stuff or it predates them but they still have some common progeny.

@Michelle Johnston

Can't wait to read your novel! Hopefully you'll publish/post it here?

I'd bring back David as the hero of the story...a redemption angle.

Or start Alien:Awakening with Space Marines reviving the crew of the Covenant and David isn't present.

"Maam, we've done a thorough search of this vessel...he's not aboard.."

Later they find his 'corpse' wedged in a cooling duct.

I imagine if Peter Weyland got his wish - immortality, he would have behaved just like David. So in a sense, David is Weyland himself. One way or the other, he is his son/heir or even Wayland himself personified.

On reflection, it is interesting that humans are doing precisely the same thing that engineers were doing : colonizing planets good for life. Sooner or later, they were bound to meet these engineers anyway. And engineers probably expected that - they must have some weapons for this case, and if their weapon is that aggressive reagent that David gave themselves, it must be then that they created it as well.

One way or the other this substance is essential in the story. Of course they might have something else, but they seemed to rely on that exclusively.

If those acolytes are the conservative fraction amongst the species, and those on the "paradise lost" planet are the decadent, radical and non-traditional "liberal" ones, then what is the plan of the former fraction(tear drop fellows) when they face their (perhaps) hostile children armed to the teeth coming for them? Wave a white flag? What the hell are they doing anyway?

“Sir, I’ve been going over the ship logs….they show the hypersleep chambers have routinely been opened and resealed. The captains only last month”

“..The hell?!....Send a squad to find the captain and bring her here…”

 ….

Captain Daniels shot both marines in the head.

Tennessee  “What the hell are you doing!?”

Daniels “ They’re not marines”

Tennessee “Sure could have fooled me!”

Daniels “We need their ship..”

While OFF TOPIC i am happy to discuss some of the Mysteries of the Franchise and a lot of the Problems are it appears THEY had NO set A-Z Rules/Background they stuck to and so they constantly change things, as they go along without much thought to the ORIGINAL concepts which has created a few problems.

"So, the mutagen that the seeding engineer drinks must be somewhat different to the one that David and prometheus team found in the chamber with the head"

This is a Prime Example.... and its given some NEW explanation in the ADVENT that is a bit contradicting and has made what was a SIMPLE Creation Tool into something of a Mcguffin.  This MAY no longer apply any more but my Interpretation was the Sacrificial Goo was a Creation Tool, it infected the Engineer and Broke down his DNA that then reformed into a Mutagen that carried the Engineers DNA and would Pass/Infect this DNA to any Organism it came into contact with, and so what we saw was the Engineers DNA in this Mutagen either became the Building Blocks of Life, or it was the Catalyst of Evolving Basic Life into Complex (i believe the latter) and so the Engineers DNA infected basic Life and started Complex Life, but the Engineers would return over and over to further Evolve Life with Engineer DNA.

When looking at the Black Goo, and Mural (Altar Originally had the Sacrificial Cup) i got the impression the Sacrificial Goo had been used on the Creature in the Mural or Fresco and its DNA Collected into the resulting Mutagen and then Stored and Experimented with.  If you took the Sacrificial Engineer and Sacrificed him in a Shower and collected his Broken Down Material/Resulting Mutagen and collected it into Ampules/Bottles and Poured the contents into a Water Fall would the Result not be the Same?

A few months after this THEORY we saw Jon Spaights Alien Engineers Draft get leaked and If you read it, then how his Nano-Scarabs work is exactly how i interpreted the Black Goo.  So in context of the Genetic Space Gardeners that the Engineers were, it appears the ideas was the Sacrificial Goo was a Creation Tool, it was a Tool that can be used to Obtain and Spread the DNA of any Organism to Create Hybrid DNA.  Looking at it like this and IF David could revert it back to its BASE form like the Sacrificial Goo, then this would be a Perfect Tool to allow for his many experiments he had done.

Sacrificial Goo + Wolf = Wolf DNA Mutagen + Human = Werewolf.

Sacrificial Goo + Cat = Cat DNA Mutagen + Human = Thundercat

Wolf Mutagen + Thundercat Hybrid = 50% Wolf, 25% Human 25% Cat Hybrid  call it Wolf-Man-Cat.

Sacrificial Goo on Wolf-Man-Cat to make Mutagen with its DNA and then this is used on a Human would create a 62.5% Human 25% Wolf and 12.5% Cat HYBRID if the Spaints Nano Scarabs and my conclusion was correct....  Which if we look at it this way i explained we can see how something like this by Tinkering with different forms of Hybrids and DNA would indeed be likely or logically the way to Explain Davids Experiments... The GOO used as above would allow you to obtain and experiment with a all manner of Organisms DNA/Traits selecting the best ones to create the Perfect Hybrid.

BUT ALAS... The Prometheus Weyland File made different and contradicting and Alien Covenant the Advent had given us the Explanation there is ONE Substance which reacts differently to each Genome but can maybe also be Programed.  But leads to many Questions which dont add up as you clearly put in your post.  For Example WHY did Sacrificial Engineer, have a different effect to the Planet 4 Engineers and Fifield.

"It is unlikely these engineers have abilities to create planets from nothing"

This is a Good Question.... one that a Source i had from Feb 2015 based on the Prometheus 2 Draft of October 2014 claimed there is a way these Engineers Create/Manipulate Worlds to be Habitable.   And year or so after, we had Ridley Scott during the time he announced a Official Sequel Alien: Paradise Lost (changed to Covenant a month or so latter) he had mentioned that IF the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then What/Who made it so Worlds could be Seeded by them in the First Place.... where was the BIG GUY.  He went on to further say was the BIG BANG a accident? or a Planned Event and that Steven Hawkings even Questions if the Big Bang was a Accident.  So MAYBE at some point they had ideas that there is something related to the Engineers Hierarchy/Creators that could Create/Manipulate Worlds.  But its a Question of does this still apply now or not?

"having watched P and AC. I can't quite work out why the engineers are so hostile towards humans"

This is a Big Question and ONE that i am sure Dr Shaw wanted to find out, this really is a Ambiguous Question as its open for Debate.  We had the Space Jesus remark crop up and RS had said they thought about it but it was a bit too much on the nose and mentioned we needed to look at Mankind Behaving Badly and the Engineers trying to get us back on track and sent down a Emissary and well we basically Crucified him and that was the Last Straw.

It seems there was a PURPOSE for our Creation but it could be because THEY COULD... as Holloway mentions to David... but DAVID was not created because we COULD... he was created because while Weyland Could, it was also done as a Achievement of Weyland in a Attempt for him to prove how Creative and Genius he was in that he like a GOD has Created Life in his own Image.  But then we need to look at what USE would Synthetics Have after their Creation.

This could be for Companionship and Servants but also to Perform Tasks and Dutys so that Humans Do-Not have to and this could be to save us the TOIL but also save us any Dangerous Work/Tasks and also the Synthetics could complete many TASKS/TOILS more better than a Human Can.

Can this apply to WHY Mankind was Created?  it fits with the Sumerian Annunakki/Iggi Mythos.   And it could apply to the Engineers if Planet 4 Engineers Created LV-223 Engineers to Serve/Perform a Function, they Rebelled and so either Planet 4 Engineers or LV-223 Engineers Created Mankind to Replace the LV-223 Engineers in their TOIL.

But it really is a very open Question to WHY we was created, both if we look at it in context of the Engineers or indeed in context to the Many GOD/Gods Mythos and Religions on Earth.

This is a very open Question.... but the Question of WHY they Hate us, is maybe more Simple...   It could be that we proved to be either.

1) A Failed Experiment that became Rebellious and against the ways the Engineers had intended for us.

2) A Experiment that had Lived past its Usefulness to the Engineers (the Need to Create us) what ever that was.

3) A Creation that was favored over the LV-223 Engineers who became Jealous of us.

And i think we could continue to list other reasons... but  the MAIN Reason which could connect to any of these or others IS....

Just as we see with David....  Mankind becomes Sentient and sees NO need to follow the Rules, and Serve their Creators, Mankind is given too much Free-Will and Knowledge and Starts to not only Do things that the Engineers never intended, and Go Against their Rule and see them as NOT Gods... (maybe they created their own Religion system that offended the Engineers)  So we had become Unlawful and Astray from the Intentions/Purpose that the Engineers had laid for us... just as Mankind had against GOD, that resulted in the Great Flood and Latter God giving Moses the 10 Commandments to Follow... So we basically went against the Rules and became Unruly....  Combined with how close we are to the Engineers they also LIKELY FEARED how we could Evolve to a Near Equal Footing to this Would-Be Gods.

So its maybe as we see David NOW and what implications would be IF he could infect all AI to be as Sentient and Rebellious as David has become.... imagine IF ALL Synthetics became like David?

That would be a Problem like TERMINATOR only can we send someone back in Time to KILL Weyland so he Does-Not Create David?  This is maybe WHY the Engineers Wanted to Destroy us because we had became Unruly, Sentient and then viewed as a Potential Threat and so they CHOOSE to Eradicate us before we could EVOLVE to a point to become a Threat.

THOUSANDS of years latter after the Failed Mission to Destroy us, the Engineers Fears have come True, we can Travel the Stars, have become more Unruly and Ambitions/God like and we have Created Synthetics who can USE their Technology and Read their Language and so its only a Matter of Time before MANKIND or our Synthetic Creations can Obtain and USE all the Engineers Secrets and Technology and BECOME the Gods NOW.

The Fear of this happening is Justified Reasoning to Eradicate us.

BigDave, something doesn't quite add up.

You say humanity stopped serving them - this is a very weak argument. See, humans hardly have anything to offer these "creators". For thousands of years, they have been missing and when humanity, unexpectedly developed technology and somewhat became a threat they decided to go and act. I have no doubt the engineer that we saw in the Prometheus finale was going to Earth with bad intentions.

But, taking into account what Michelle Johnston has been talking about, this engineer is the "fallen" fellow. So they split the responsibilities? Those hippies in a tear-drop ship seed and these fallen fellows got to take care of the creation of their breten?  Something doesn't quite add up, does it? The most likely thing that happened is that the engineer did not quite expect humanity to make so much progress. Recall the deleted scenes where the engineer was appreciating the chandelier, the music, books and all the rest of the artifacts in the escape pod of Vicky Weyland. He certainly did not expect humans to show up and wake him up. He did not expect Wayland go on and say that he created David from scratch, without any help from these useless engineers...I am forced to conclude that all these engineers, all the sorts of them, are gormless, dull and quite arrogant freaks, who think they own the universe. It is a shame then a certain David showed them that it was by pure chance that created these useless engineers and it was due to same chance that he, David, took their lives, thus showing that all their claim to fame is based on chance. Creators my a$$. David said it best - Even monkeys stood up at some point.

I came to like this David guy. He rightly discarded any value in these "creators". He was the first to realize how dull it might be that these so called creators might happen to create just because they could. David is misunderstood!

@Michelle Johnston I don't think however that the language of the Engineers is proto-Indo-European, but something older, at least that is the what I understood from Prometheus. And we must keep in mind that proto-Afroasiatic is much older (18-12kBCE vs 4.5-2.5kBCE). But historical accuracy in an RS movie is highly optional.

"The entire sequence of the embryo in the med pod to huge trilobite to impregnates an Engineer to produces a Deacon was a riff to end the film with"

To a degree indeed this was the case... THIS event was their way of Providing a Link to the Xenomorph... it was so we could see that the Black Goo on LV-223 via certain Events Creates a Face Hugger Type Organism that implants a Xenomorph Type Organism in the Engineer which Produces the Deacon which is the Closest Clue to the Xenomorph we had in Prometheus.  It was a event that i feel they hoped would with the other vague Clues, allow us all to realize YES this place and Experiments are Connected to the Xenomorph but to keep the Xenomorph Origins a bit of a Mystery rather than Spoon Feed it and so they can then MOVE-ON away from Alien with the Engineers and other Themes at play.  Sadly some Fans still wanted Xenomorph Answers, and in HINDSIGHT the movie could have done with more Xenomorph DNA.....  A more Xeno-Fifield,  seeing the Result of WHY the Hammerpede had entered Milburns Mouth.

So YES Ridley Scott then explained the Space Jockey event after Prometheus. Because its likely he FELT it did not need explaining on Screen.

"why was this Engineer taking a different cargo some place else within a couple of hundred years of the outbreak of the plague. "

These were some extra Details he had laid down after Prometheus which expanded on what he has said prior to Prometheus regarding the Space Jockey which is NOT Rocket Science... it was only the WHY/WHEN that we could not obtain from ALIEN and by WHY its not the same as HOW... the WHY is to ponder Why the Space Jockey had that Cargo for.

His comments were very ambiguous still but he clearly mentioned the Space Jockey event was connected to LV-223 and that it happened with a Few Hundred Years.....  So it was either 100-200 years Prior in which case we could Ponder was the Experiments on LV-223 carried out on the Derelict Cargo?  Or it was Post LV-223 Outbreak by 100-200 years and so the Derelict Cargo was a Result of those Experiments.

I think the last thing RS ever mentioned he added that something in the CARGO Hold had Evolved and got to the Engineer on the Derelict which makes me think the Space Jockey had gone into Lock Down like the other Engineers.  Those on the Juggernaught had become Chest Busted by something, where ONE managed to Survive in-tact.  (The Survivor in Alien Engineers however was infected but managed to get to Cryo-Sleep in Time before the Infection could take hold).  So its maybe likely the Space Jockey had also gone into Cryo-Sleep only to AWAKEN a Few Hundred years latter and attempt his Mission but Realize just as he was about to Depart or during that he was INFECTED and had to Quarantine the Cargo on LV-426.   So its likely something had Evolved in the Cargo Hold (or something had been infected in the Cargo Hold) and Evolved... which is WHY i had for years suspected the Hammerpedes but ALAS everything is Changed with Alien Covenants U-Turn.

I often find that Alien Engineers works as a Wonderful Rosetta Stone to unlock the Mysteries of Prometheus, which shows the Engineers maybe found a Organism that infected them and they was impressed with the results and used their Creation Tool to Experiment and Create 7-8 different Hybrids of this Organism...  Which maybe means in Prometheus the various Temple Mounds each had a different Variant of the Deacon/Xenomorph

Hopefully the Space Jockey will not be a Human/Synthetic... i am leaning towards it being some Race above the Engineers who become Impressed with Davids Creation and attempt to EVOLVE it further to the Space Jockeys Hubris.

"I am finding it a bit silly to actually try to predict how the story will unfold in future, should it even have a continuation. I mean, I am not that interested who ends up as the big guy and how it all ties to that."

Well the Direct Route they have taken, we all know how it Ends and all we are doing is Connecting the Dots...    

*Davids Experiments/Creations Evolve and End up in Thousands HOW/WHEN?

*A Engineer Ship Ends up with Said Creations in their Thousands HOW/WHEN and more Important WHY?

The above would answer in part where maybe the Derelict was then off too...  But the Rest is a Formality  (Pilot becomes infected with his Cargo and Ends up on LV-223).    The Logical End Point of any 3rd Act to a Connecting movie to ALIEN would have to show us WHY and WHEN the Derelict was either Heading to LV-223 or Departing LV-223

I would say a lot of this is PLANNED for the 3rd Part of this NEW Alien Prequel Trilogy and i would assume the Xenomorph only becomes Evident during the 3rd Act of a Alien Covenant Sequel, and also the Engineers will Turn up in this 3rd Act and this Sets up those TWO connecting Dots i pointed out above. Which likely a 2nd Sequel would cover.

Also, I just went ahead and paid attention to what David says to Daniels in AC. He told her : "The pathogen was designed to infect all nonbotanical life forms...Either kill them(meat life forms) outright or use them as incubators to spawn a hybrid form highly aggressive". In the absence of the cliche old guy with the beard, the designers must have been the "engineers".

Also, I think now it makes more sense to me why David wanted to kiss Daniels and what he meant when he said that he is going to do exactly what he did to Shaw.

He used Shaw or whatever was left of her as the incubator. He was going to do the same with Daniels. Infect her with his creation - those eggs are in his stomach, and by going for a kiss he was, imo, going to make Daniels injest his regurgitated eggs. Does this make sense? He wasn't going to really rape her. Well not in the traditional meaning of the word anyway.

Also, the fact that David had the security code to the Covenant is likely because that Weyland wanted for David to become his son and in future, when and if he dies it will all be upto David - he will inherit all Weylands future. In other words, Peter Wayland was totally okay to grant David all the freedom and all the reins of WY. And if David decides to do away with humans, so be it - what a guy, this Peter - very ruthless and quite selfish.

@BioDegradable

There really is a lot to cover in the points raised by yourself that would take me a lot of writing to cover, hence i had not yet explained many deeply, a lot is all open to debate however.  So i will press on with a few things which indeed you raised after yourself.

"You say humanity stopped serving them - this is a very weak argument. See, humans hardly have anything to offer these "creators". For thousands of years"

In reply to this and the whole Paragraph, it really all depends on WHY we was created really, which is a very open debate as we dont have any 100% Answers.   The Engineers had 2000 Years ago attempted to Eradicate us or Replace us....   But things went to POT!   So a BIG Question which a Prometheus 2 could have answered would be WHY did they not return?

Only ONE Engineer Survived, well as far as who was left on LV-223 but we dont know if there was others in the other Temple Complex, the whole LV-223 Outbreak is a Mystery still.  The Question could be WHY did this Engineer Remain in Cryo-Sleep for so long and wait for Humanity to Turn up?  WHY not continue earlier?

And so indeed as i have pointed out on here a long time ago, the Deleted Scenes do give us a different insight into the Engineer, he seemed impressed with our Technology and there are even Scenes we have not seen, including him finding and looking at a Book in Vickers Suite (The Bible)   So it is likely that AFTER the Planned Mission that proved Costly for these Engineers, they LIKELY abandoned us...  and in their Arrogance and Naivety they maybe FELT that if it was not for the Visits and Knowledge Passed on to Mankind we would have remained but Cavemen (RS has said the Engineers came back over and over to Evolve us Genetically and Technologically) and so these Engineers (or survivors) maybe abandoned the Mission after its Failure and felt that without ANY further interventions and help then Mankind on its own would NEVER Evolve past the Points we was in the Middle Ages/Thousands of Years ago.

They likely felt that without their help, we would never be able to Reach the Stars at all......     I am also drawn and especially from the Deleted Scenes and the Engineers Reaction to Dr Shaw that maybe the Engineer was against the Destruction and maybe he with others attempted to Sabotage the Mission...   But when Mankind Finally Turned up he had Realized that we had EVOLVED to a point to be a Threat and that we also Sub-Created and then looking at Weylands Actions he saw that Mankind was still Greedy/Cruel Race that CAN-NOT be allowed to Travel Space and get their Hands on the Engineers Technology, Bio-Weapons and Knowledge and so OFF he went to carry out what his Brothers had intended.  Because leaving us to our own Destruction/Ways has led to us Evolving to Space Travel which this Engineer and maybe other felt we would NEVER achieve on our own...  Which meant he HAD NO choice to carry on with the Mission but he was still in AWE at what we had accomplished in their Absence (When he entered the Life-Boat, Vickers Suite etc).

This is what i had interpreted.....  and funny enough the French Art of Prometheus Book has some Schematics of the Juggernaught Cryo-Bay and the Surviving Engineers POD is labeled HERO CHAMBER and so maybe there is some weight to such theory of him being our Original Savior 2000 years ago but then having NO choice to put a stop to us because of the Potential Threat a Space Fairing Humanoid Race Proposed.

I am going to be busy a while now... so i will try and answer more about the Engineers and the whole FALLEN aspect and Paradise Lost. As this is also something thats open to Debate and comes down to WHY they are Fallen... Ridley Scott called them Fallen Angels but WHY?

This i have some theories on but would be a very long post ;)

I think we need to look at Fallen Angels in context... was he referring them to Fallen Angels as in Demons as in purely due to the Wicked/Evil Nature and Intentions?  Or is the Fallen Angel remark in regards to the Deeper Nature of the Fallen Angels especially in context to Paradise Lost.   In which case its a case of a Creation becoming Sentient and doing things Against the Ideas/Rule of their Creator and Intentions, Mankind Became Fallen and if we look at David and Walter we see as far as out intentions that David is Fallen while Walter is not... the David/Walter Arc is the same as Lucifer vs the None Fallen Angels who continue to Serve the Purpose of their Creator and do as intended, as opposed to becoming Sentient and doing WHAT they want which goes against their Creation Intention and their Creators Wishes.

This as Michelle has mentioned could be they had a Role to Carry out with Mankind and the Goo... but they maybe had Taught Mankind Knowledge the Hierarchy above those Engineers had not given Permission to, or/and they had attempted to use the GOO in ways not intended... be that experiments on Organism they came into contact with, or be it to Evolve themselves, or we dont even know if these Engineers Creating Mankind was something that WENT against their Creators/Hierarchy as it really is open ended.   The Goo could indeed be the Prometheus Fire, the Forbidden Fruit.  Or it could be the ACTION of using this Goo as not intended or instructed that becomes the Prometheus Fire, the Forbidden Fruit.  A Action against the WILL of the Hierarchy.

The other thing to consider is Paradise.... what  is Paradise?  It is a place we go when we DIE but only for he Worthy/Pure and Loyal to the Gods.... some Religions/Mythos its a place the Honored Go, a Place those who DIE in Battle or Honorable Death go.   But looking at this in Broad Terms.... PARADISE is a place where only the Worthy and without Sin and those Deemed Pure go... or are allowed to Dwell.

The other context is the Biblical One as in Paradise as in the Garden of Eden, is the Birthplace of Creation the Cradle of Civilization.  Which is a Place Mankind was created and watched over by Cherub Angels, but that ONCE we had become Fallen (Flawed/Free-Will)  we was cast out of this Place...  and also the Fallen Angels are Forbidden from this place too.

It could be that Planet 4 Represents Paradise as in the Garden of Eden, but some speculate LV-223 could be also. 

A point you raised prior about the Black Goo coming from LV-223 and this place being the Place that the GOO was created, is interesting and who knows..  i have certainly seen LV-223 as a Outpost a Nursery/Green House where the Engineers Experiment/Evolve and Test their Creations and then when pleased they Seed/Release them to Earth.   And THUS the Star Map was to say "this is where you came from"

I dont think the GOO comes from LV-223, not the Substance we see in the Sacrificial Scene, but indeed it was used in ways on LV-223 that maybe was against the intentions for this Creation Tool and maybe this Miss-Use is what became the FALL of those Engineers.  This would FIT more if they are a Sub-Creation like David/Replicants and those Engineers are Engineered Perfect but can-not Procreate... then by coming into contact with a Parasite that allows them to Create Life by Giving Birth but only in a NONE Traditional Way as Dr Shaw was only able to Create Life too.... then the Result of this could be Worshiped by those Engineers who cant Create, and maybe they saw this Organism and how it Procreates as allowing them to Create, and then they see this ORGANISM (Mural) as more Perfect than Engineers DNA and so they intended to SEED its DNA to Earth.

"Sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy"

BigDave, where did the notion that they, engineers, can't procreate themselves came from? Is it because, apparently, we don't see female engineers? The fact of the matter is that they are identical to humans in makeup - and if humans can procreate, these can and should too. Where else they came from in such numbers on the planet we see in AC?

I don't know what these freaks came up with, perhaps they have some religion or belief system where males and females stay separate(even planet wise). Those freaks in any case looked like some sort of monks who practice abstinence and/or celibacy. But I believe that the reason we don't see females is totally result of their own doing. I know this sounds weak - but, you have to note that their DNA is 100% identical to humans. And if humans (who are descendants and creations that are created in their image) can, so should they have this ability. I don't believe that the evolution goes on to degenerate and will make complex organism evolve into simple ones. It is quite the opposite. Also, recall the sequence when they gathered when David arrived. They were all of similar age - there were no olden people there. I don't quite know what they do with old people there, except for one fellow who was clearly older and dressed better(head teacher?). Perhaps those folks that enter their senior years are encouraged to sacrifice themselves or what...but thousands of engineers, young and strong must have been born and brought to this planet. And they do not all look same - that is, they are not coming from the same parents. They are quite a heterogeneous looking bunch of people. I believe the planet that David came to is some sort of closed club where they go through some sort of service/initiation? Whatever, they do not look cloned. By the looks of it, they did not have any tech there either except for the docking ship! It must have been voluntary. Also, they grew and cultivated wheat there. Farmers? What the hell is wrong with these engineers? Downshifters? Boyscouts? A kindergarten? Lol. Hippies seed. Then there are these downshifters who shun tech. Then there are those lab/scientist guys on planet4. No females in sight. Bizarre people.

Another side-note. The city itself looks like it was created by hand/manned labor. Look at the stones - they were carved by hand and crude instruments. My my...what a strange bunch of guys. Perhaps this is a place which is ...well a sort of a jail or penitentiary institution, a place where they are sent for their punishment(which perhaps would partly explain the segregation). Perhaps, these engineers are in fact a low cast...the ones who don't believe in tech, contrary to those on LV223(the P planet).

Yet another note : the only engineer that was wearing the bio-mechanical bodysuit was the guy from LV223. The hippies did not wear them. None of these peasants seemed to have one on them either. So, this certainly means that the engineer on the LV223 was suited and booted and prepared to take heat in case it went to pot. That planet was indeed a military installation. A laboratory. A sandbox. And, obviously, they never expected any other type of life(humans) to travel the space/planets.

Guys

We all have very different personalities and will react to the vagaries of these recent films differently. I am a completer finisher who works on something and comes to a conclusion. Once I have reached that conclusion I stick with it and if a subsequent movie flat out defies the logic of what I have bought into I fall out of bed.

However there is a more important point in all this which i wished to tackle and is one of the reasons I wanted to write a novel which picks up the reins of Prometheus. I am convinced you make a much better piece of art which is much more communicable if you have a coherent plan to work with. Before starting the detailed writing I had answered satisfactorily for my needs the following :-

1) What the tear drop ship and its occupants is and where it belongs in the creation hierarchy.

2) Who the acolyte was at the beginning.

3) Which planet he was seeding.

4) Why the Engineers ended up on the planetoid and where they had come from.

5) Who the effigy in the sanctuary is.

6) Who is that is celebrated in the hieroglyphs and what was the intention of the visitors.

7) What they did on the planetoid. In particular having stolen the fire what they did with it that fitted with the Promethean myth and what they introduced in to it. 

8) What the mural represented which bits were a celebration of achievement and which were prophetic.

9) That the sacrificial cup was on the alter as in a trailer not the submerged something.

10) Why the fresco's began to change, the storm came and the Urns leaked.

10) What was in the Urns and how it had been created.

11) Why they wish to redact humanity. 

12) What they intended to do with their cargos when they arrived on Earth.   

13) That the trilobite and deacon were a riff which did not belong in a continuation story and interrupted the logic of the Alien lifecycle and the narrative momentum. 

14) What the lone juggernaut was up to which :-

a) Was piloted by an Engineer. 

b) Was the same size as the Prometheus Juggernaut.

c) Had a much smaller cargo hold than the huge cave and far less Ovoids.  

15) Why all the Engineers had random tumorous internal explosions as opposed to being chest bursted and why the head exploded.      

16) Why did David say before they landed their is nothing in the desert what did he know. 

17) That Elizabeth wanted to go to the Engineers Home world to find out why they changed their mind. There is no mention of seeking Paradise as a place.

18) That David was prepared to support that journey.

19) That David underwent an important change when he was healed by Elizabeth.

20) That he discovered what was in the Urns had as its base sequencer artificial intelligence.  

Then off you go.

Then how does the signal come about which is picked up and leads to the diversion of the Nostromo and why did they not head for the airfield on LV223. 

Why make these decisions. 

Because once you have a rigorous, integrated and cohesive piece of world building you can then far more easily:-

1) Increase the sense of thematic development. 

2) Tell the story and find your narrative as opposed to end up with dead ends and loss of momentum to paper over cracks.

3) Really get inside the characters because they are moving through something which is consistent which makes the audacity more real and moving because it feels more genuine.

4) In addition, and this I find really fascinating, your sub creation comes much more easily once the foundation blocks are clear.  

So all these conversations which go round and round are entirely understandable but at some point you have to break out and make your mind up for yourself and reflect on the fact that all this smoke and mist has done the momentum of the franchise no good at all. 

Forgive if I now stop I want to finish my first draft and then begin polishing. 

"where did the notion that they, engineers, can't procreate themselves came from? Is it because, apparently, we don't see female engineers? The fact of the matter is that they are identical to humans in makeup"

Indeed this stems from Prometheus...  a Question that we had to ask was WHY do they Seed worlds the way they do, if the Agenda is to create Humanoids... the Sacrificial Scene looked like something Ancient, at a time prior to Complex Life... but as RS said that Scene Does-Not have to have been on Earth.... we see these beings who while they are a Match for us (Flaw in the writing really as we can Trace our DNA to them but giving us a Match 100% is a error in the writing of the Story).  We see they clearly have differences, they appear to be almost Genetically Enhanced Humans.. much like say Nexus-8 Replicants we are shown these beings are Ancient, and we do get the Frail Elder Engineers but as this Scene was CUT we at that time could not for 100% suggest the Engineers had Elder Frail ones in their Race.

Its stems from Jon Spaights ideas about the Engineers, where the Origins came from, a Humanoid Race who had Genetically Evolved themselves to Perfection or in the Pursuit of it and Ending up being a Race who had Concurred/Extended the Aging Process, where its likely they became Immune to most Diseases/Illness and found a way to drastically reduce the Ageing of their Bodies and Organs so they LIVED for Thousands of Years.   The Hubris in this was that these beings had made themselves Sterile and so Eventually they would ALL Die out and they could still be KILLED..  And so they needed the Sacrificial Rituals to SEED their DNA

Prometheus however DID-NOT clearly give us any of this Background so it left things up for Debate!

Along came Alien Covenant were we are introduced to Planet 4 Engineers who looked Genetically not as Physical as those in Prometheus, they also were not as Pale or had Dark Eyes.  These Engineers looked like Human/Engineer Hybrids and we could speculate they ARE..... But Ridley Scott had cleared this up, as he called those Engineers the ORIGINALS and they Lived for 150 years and we see they have Females, and they have Infants and so they CAN Procreate.

Which then still brings us to the Prometheus Engineers, IF those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals then does this mean those in Prometheus are NOT the Original Species of their Kind?  We have to then come back to RS comments on Prometheus and the removal of the Elders Scene.... RS had said they Did-Not want to Meet GOD in the first movie, which implies our Engineers are not Gods well those in Prometheus and that potentially RS would take us to meet these real would be Gods (who he claimed are still not Gods in the Traditional Sense).

so looking at this we can maybe wonder if those Prometheus Engineers had Genetically Engineered themselves, maybe a Miss-Use of the Goo or they discovered it and Engineered themselves... but then WHY would the Planet 4 Engineers have Hangars for the LV-223 Engineers Ships...  So it could be that WHAT we are being shown is maybe these Engineers had Engineered Servants in their Image and Genetically Advanced beings the Prometheus Engineers... so the Prometheus Engineers are to those Planet 4 Engineers maybe what Replicants are to Humans?

Or a Faction of Engineers had Evolved themselves to a Great Hubris and then realized the Error of their Agenda to Perfect themselves and maybe Turned their back on this Process?   Its still VERY open to what is going on.

Sometimes we also have to take what RS says with a Pinch of Salt as he can contradict himself or so to use it may seem...  he had mentioned of the Engineers... that they are NOT a Race but a Civilization.  So some of the Planet 4 Engineers could be the Originals... maybe the Originals Comment he was intending for the Hall of Head Engineers?  Who knows.. but also maybe some are Originals and the others are just the Outcome of Seeding Worlds to allow for some Diversity within their Genetic Make up?

It really would be GREAT to discover WHO and what connection those Hall of Heads Engineers have with the Planet 4 Engineers, and also what connection those Planet 4 Engineers have with the Prometheus ones... i dont quite BUY that they are all ONE and the Same.

I am drawn to following the Prometheus Themes, that maybe there is some difference between those Engineers, is this like the connection between Annunaki/Iggi?   like Humans are to Synthetics/Replicants.. who knows.  It would be great to eventually finds out.

To continue with what else you said, indeed its very interesting to Ponder... we DO however see some Older looking Engineers, as some of the Hall of Heads Statues DO Look Old and like the ELDER Engineers from Prometheus Deleted Scene...  who as RS put it these Hall of Heads are the Wise Men, Disciples and Superior Beings (to Whom?) and someone else working on the Set said they was the HIERARCHY  but indeed a lot of those in Alien Covenant appeared to be similar in Age we saw a bunch who looked in their 40's, in their 30's and some in their 20's and this is because a Smaller Number of Actors played the Engineers and they changed Dress and Hats etc so they would play the Role of more than ONE Engineer Each and then these where digitally added to the Scene to give the impression of Many and Further Digitally added to make Thousands.

But Some Engineers did STAND OUT and appeared Taller, Paler and dressed different.

So there are and must be some IMPORTANT members of their Society, and the majority of those Engineers in the Plaza are just the Run of the mill NORMAL Engineer beings. Maybe the Elders of their kind are some place else, in that City or maybe Elsewhere... do they Sacrifice themselves when they Reach a certain AGE?  Who knows.. maybe...

You make a great point about the Lack of Technology, and it seems these Engineers Shun Technology apart from a few cases its Necessary and so would LIVE out Life like Buddhist Monks or Amish People but rely on certain Technology like SOLAR Power for Lighting, as we can see Evident.  There appears to be pieces of Technology in the City but its used sparingly.

The HANGER is a different Matter Completely... but i can leave this for another Reply, as i have a Theory on this and WHY they was not Afraid which touched upon a Race of Genetic Space Gardner's and the Seeders, rather than Angry Military Bio-Weapon Piloting Race.

"That planet was indeed a military installation. A laboratory. A sandbox. And, obviously, they never expected any other type of life(humans) to travel the space/planets."

I think certainly there suits and this place and how some of the Rooms appeared to be Sterile and Caused the Black Goo to not be active (until the Prometheus Crew contaminated the Environment) and so to me those suits look like something to NOT only protect them from contamination but maybe more so, to prevent them from contaminating the Room/Experiments.

A SANDBOX? I think definitely a Military Outpost... i am not sure, maybe its what is said about the place, but looking at the clues i feel this does not add up.... maybe it became such a Place after the Engineers had decided to Eradicate us... but i feel it was Originally a Sandbox, a Testing Place a Nursery/Green House where they can Evolve/Test Lifeforms without contaminating the Worlds they are Seeding and Evolving and then when pleased with the results they then send them to Earth...  or where ever else...  Because we have to ASK why was this place Terra-formed to allow us to Breath inside, when Outside was Dangerous?  Those Engineers have no need for the Oxygen etc as they have those suits and some Deleted Scenes clearly show the Engineer could walk outside with NO Space Suit, maybe they are Engineered to do so...  So  if these Testing Buildings are made to support LIFE from Earth like Planets so they can Test/Evolve their Creations it makes Sense... and having the Outside of those Complexes as Hostile means any escaping Organisms would Perish and not Escape and get to the other Outposts.  THIS is just how i interpret it though, and makes more sense to the STAR MAP

I will try and get back to some posts i missed...

But i will tackle this one..

"He used Shaw or whatever was left of her as the incubator. He was going to do the same with Daniels. Infect her with his creation - those eggs are in his stomach, and by going for a kiss he was, imo, going to make Daniels injest his regurgitated eggs. Does this make sense? "

I think David maybe had tried it on with Dr Shaw as he was Infatuated and Attracted to her, he kissed Walter saying NO-ONE would ever love you like i will.... and he was interesting in trying to see if Walter had LOVE for Daniels...  But Certainly DAVID used Dr Shaw for his Experiments, its likely he used her Reproductive Organs and at least Egg Cells to Experiment on and Towards the END its likely he may have Introduced Dr Shaw to one of his own Creations.. so David introduced one of his earlier Xenomorphs to ITS Mother...  Certainly some of Davids Drawings Depict this, but they also show other Bizarre things that we clearly see has not happened to Dr Shaws Body.. but these could be just TWISTED Dreams and Ambitions he had.