The DAVID Dilema

"Once I have reached that conclusion I stick with it and if a subsequent movie flat out defies the logic of what I have bought into I fall out of bed."

I know that feeling very well, when you invest time to figure out the clues and make some sense of it all, then along comes a FOX File or a Comment or even a Sequel that conflicts all you have looked into and makes the Theories you have kind of NULL and Void... 

It does seem those working on the Projects seem to have a Make it up and Change it as we go along without looking back at what was set prior... 

Those Points you raise Michelle the 20 things are indeed a lot of things we maybe had HIGH hopes for being answered in a Sequel, i had some ideas how i would tackle those kinds of Questions, i had came to some conclusions to many, but then some i had like a number of ideas/theories that i could not set down on ONE set way to go i had for some things multiple explanations and each then branched off to something and these roads they took contradicted other parts so it was hard and its WHY I abandoned my Prometheus 2 Project, well its why my Prometheus 2 would have only loosely touched upon those kinds of Questions.. it was not so much about David, Dr Shaw and Engineers... i would save that for the next Installment once i could Settle on HOW to answer many of those questions without contradicting the Movies... But with Alien Covenant coming along, this seemed a bit NULL and VOID to a degree so i never continued with it.

I really look forwards to your NOVEL/PROJECT and i would give my TWO Cents to those points, but i feel that would end up a MASSIVE Essay that would be Many Many Pages lol

There certainly was a lot of Mystery and Questions to be answered, that a lot now seem to be None-Important compared to the Spoon Fed Direct U-Turn route to Alien they have now taken.

Michelle Johnston, BigDave

I understand what you both are saying and appreciate what you embarked upon. I tried to, superficially, interpret events seen from both movies, and as such I would and did reach conclusions that are understandably different to what you might end up with - it all involves a fudge and guesswork. And I never had a holistic and somewhat structured approach to any of this - unlike you. No wonder, I would never embark on such a journey - it is too shaky for me to even contemplate and requires a lot of dedication. That is, I am completely uncertain of my ability to furnish a complete and coherent story. So, do not let my guesses(reasonable?) upset your work - because anyone's idea/theory/interpretation is as fallible as others. Or as good as others. My observations are just ... episodic inane babbles of a one who is trying to soften the sharp edges of the story for himself. I surely must have missed a lot of points and made a lot of assumptions(took leaps of faith). And so, do not be discouraged by my posts here.

Precisely because I am not committed to any of the story telling perspective and I didn't embark on a self imposed journey as seemingly Michelle did - I will not have trouble abandoning any of my hypotheticals. If you invest time and effort into this, it will carry some gravitas and as such this investment will no doubt pre-dispose you against some ideas that go against your assumptions. And this is the drawback of the journey you embark upon. This is also the reason I would never want to do what Michelle is doing. I am just a madman spewing wild guesses and listening for some feedback. Figuratively, I am trying to see if any of it sticks to the wall. The benefit of being a madman is the freedom to look at any sequence of events and interpret it one way and another way the very next moment. And there is no gravitas and need to defend any of your views - since there is no commitment and investment.

So, please, do not feel discouraged by any of this.

I just wonder about how much of theorizing we as audience should be doing. The film-makers have to make a decision on how complicated and specific their plot needs to be. And then, they have to decide what goes onto screen. And the compromise is in that if they leave too much of the plot off the screen (and the plot was complex/specific and non-linear) they do so at their own peril - the viewer will have no idea of what might have happened. And if you overload the viewer with too much freedom/ambiguity he will simply discard your story altogether.

We are given this story, and my question is this: is it messy because there was never a proper and coherent story behind it in the fist place - that is the writers did a poor job and failed to create a somewhat consistent and comprehensive story or is it messy because they just couldn't find right balance with their decision of what to put on the screen? The movie makers have a lot of requirements : write a semi-believable story and to please all fractions of fans and most importantly to make money. But if they did not put in their work - if the story is just an incoherent set of all sort of "cool" ideas, this hodgepodge of this and that, I don't want to spend any time this. Are any of the writers are infamous in such ways and have a history of being these sloppy guys? You see I do not appreciate such writers at all. In other words, I don't want to be a person who is lost in someones clap-trap of psychopathic ideas left to figure out and furnish for himself a way out of the mess. And all the meanwhile, if the filmmakers keep pouring more and more of dubious and incoherent set of themes I am out - I would better spend my leisure time in something that is worth somewhat more perusing.

What do you say? Which is it?

Now that I read BigDave's last post...

it seems more and more that they have no idea what they are doing and are just adding more crap as they go along. "Damn frustrating", in the words of David. This is probably the difference between these sort of writers and someone like P. K. Dick, who made sure that his stories had solid and coherent underlying idea. Even though Dick was doing it for monetary reasons, he did his hw...these guys...I am not sure if they are serious.

@ignorantGuy

Forgive me in the blizzard of replies I missed yours. Dr Anil Biltoo is a genuine scholar of PIE (proto indo european) who appeared in the 20th Century Fox film Prometheus. He provided the Engineer language and after the movie was released was asked to translate what David said to the Engineer. The translation he offered is "This man is here because he does not want to die. He believes you can give him more life." That is a translation from PIE to English ergo PIE is the Engineer language. 

In the filmed section with the acolyte the elder who provides the acolyte with the catalyser speaks in the same language. So whoever the occupants of the tear drop ship are they to speak P.I.E. Naturally I do not have to take the line that the Elders are the occupants of the tear drop ship only that the acolyte was brought to the place of gifting by it. I have accepted the tradition of PIE = Engineer and Hierarchy Language.  

In the novel which aims to underwrite and make clearer what you see in Prometheus I have taken the view that it is the root language ( "like a great river whose tributary runs into a small stream"). If mankind misstepped in its development and ability to discover all that the Engineer who seeded Earth is and failed to take advantage of the civilising input of the vessel of the catalyst then that could make sense given the underlying story. Put simply the Heirarchy and the Engineers are much older than mankind and it is for mankind to hitch a lift to the gifts made to them. if they do not and go off at a tangent before getting it then there maybe a reason for that.

Finally I have used the language for several important exchanges in some cases I have translated it and in others leave it a mystery. It is as Ridley said a very guttural language with clicks and chops and no pronouns or propositions you have to add those in but "stop you can go no further" has equivalence whereas "Go to the place of ....." there is no of.    

Two further points :-

I have discovered that the Engineers had/have another form of communication which is attempted by the woken Engineer on David something which he recounts much later.

The Engineers originate on a exosolar planet which has already been discovered and between now and 2093 we will gain more knowledge of it which David will have access to. It has qualities which bleed into the story of the Engineers. Incidentally Elizabeth calls them Engineers they call themselves "widjom erko"  In Alien Covenant there are six wise elders in the citadel. In the novel the number of the hierarchy who are not Engineers or "widjom erko" is a different number. 

Btw, if someone hasn't seen the video with captions where David talks to the engineer take a look here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5j1Y8EGWnc turn subtitles/CC.

@Michelle Johnston, thx for the replay. I understand that they used the reconstructed PIE language, but I "choose to believe" (to quote someone missed), that it was used as a stand in for the primordial human language learned from the Engineers. Otherwise, how can one explain ancient Egyptian or the various Semitic language contemporary to PIE (different engineers, different languages but that is contrived)?

So the Engineers are also telepathic you say? Ok ... that would be interesting. Nice name, wonder what it means....

"I understand what you both are saying and appreciate what you embarked upon. I tried to, superficially, interpret events seen from both movies, and as such I would and did reach conclusions that are understandably different to what you might end up with "

This indeed is seen by some as one of the BIG Problems with Prometheus and to a lesser degree Alien Covenant, but its what some find more interesting.  The Movie (Prometheus) was so ambiguous, the Plot Reveal that the Engineers are who we interpreted as our Gods in Ancient Mankind and they indeed Engineered us, and then HOW they was connected to the Xenomorph via the LV-223 Installation.    This was a very BOLD plot and while it gave us this Plot it did so by being a bit Ambiguous which by the very nature of such a Plot leaves many many ways it can be explored, where the viewer is not given all the Answers.  So this does mean that each person will take something different from the Movie, it answers somethings but by doing so raises more questions with NO real answers and the Ambiguity is what gives everyone a different perspective on whats going on.

So its not a Spoon Fed Movie... if it was then while it would be more simple to comprehend and follow for some, it would LEAVE no where near the Room for Debates/Speculation and something to talk about that Ridley Scotts Journey into the Prequels has given us.

The movie is quite a puzzle, its a movie the more you watch, the more you can get other ideas/answers running through your head.  And also WHEN we look at the Deleted Scenes, Unused Concepts and Earlier Drafts/Ideas and then also comments by Cast/Production and Ridley Scott both prior and post PROMETHEUS these can help Shape the idea of Prometheus in different ways depending which of these Extra Information you take on board or discard.

Continuing it seems indeed they had a BASIC idea of what was going on with Jon Spaights and Ridley Scott, but felt that actually the whole Plot Reveal about the Engineers and HOW/WHY they experimented to Create Xenomorphs was something more interesting than having to Spoon Feed Xenomorphs and Direct Answers and so Changes where made for Prometheus.

Damon Lindeloff was a Fan of a bit of Ambiguity and TWO of maybe the most fitting comments he made about Prometheus were.... IF you attempt to make a Direct Prequel to Alien AKA Space Jockey all you are doing is just connecting Dots... and so yes just setting up the Inevitable.  And he then also said that the Ambiguity of Prometheus has allowed the Alien Fanbase Community to have a lot of debates and Speculation and something to Talk about and Rack our Brains over.

Things DID hit a Road-bump after because due to these Questions, and how some Fans wanted more Answers and Clues, it really was a case of HOW do they Proceed with a Sequel and HOW such a Broad Plot could be dealt with... The Plot was BOLD and potentially could be EPIC but on the other hand it could be kind of a Poisoned Chalice for how they Handle/Deal with it.

It seems they at FOX had a lot of change of Minds/Plans both during Editing of Prometheus (the other deleted Scenes can draw a different conclusion)  and it appears NO clear way of HOW to evolve/handle the Engineers and the Plot...   which is why they went through TWO Writers and at least 8 drafts for a Sequel.

Before it all went Quiet and then a U-Turn Plot to be more a Direct Prequel, and Harper had penned a few drafts which Logan then re-wrote and so the WHOLE Prometheus Sequel must have had 13-15 different Drafts before we got our Alien Covenant.

"And so, do not be discouraged by my posts here."

I think your fine, this place is all about everyone having their own opinion and i actually THINK your contributions have helped to Raise/Spark some of the MOST important Mysteries regarding the Prequels.

Your Last Paragraph.....  I think indeed it appears the Prequels Major Problem for many is it is VERY Plot Device Driven, where there is a SET of Events/Actions that are to be covered at the Expense of some Coherence and also Character Development..... it appeared Characters and Depth where just seen as purely to drive Plot Points only apart from a FEW Characters...   Where only our MAIN Lead David seems invested in both Prequels and JOINT Leads Dr Shaw and Daniels just were a bit Flawed.... and where the Captains... Janek and Oram actually came across as more Well Polished but played a lesser role than they deserved.

The Problem they Face now with the U-Turn is they have Written themselves into a Corner....  where as Lindeloff said.. all they are doing NOW is connecting those Dots to Alien at the Expense of what Prometheus set up.

@ignorantGuy

The way I would summarise how the language of the film (and novel) is presented and how it relates to our real world experience would be as follows :-

The Hierarchy/Engineers - speak the base language that they would expect all humanoid species they seed to speak. It is crucial to their "plan" which I touch upon in the novel.

Mankind should have as its singular root language the same base language. It has other base languages (I believe there are as many as 14) and many societies have myths which attempt to "recover" the reasons why and many have one theme in common. Vain Glorious Rebellion based in hubris and over extending ambition. That we both know is the real world mythos what is interesting in this constructed world mythos is the first element of the story refers to the Promethean Myth. What we do not know is the precise way in which that Promethean myth manifested itself and its consequences. A genuine continuation story would explain that and could indicate for instance why when the Engineers visited Earth things were not going according to "their" plan and mankind as in the story of Babel was getting above itself. That maybe why we have 14 root languages, it may contribute to the reasons that they decided to redact us. However their is another element that needs to be considered their visits themselves may be Promethean.

In a perfect universe we would all speak the same language understand each other in a more general sense and understand the universe in which we live and place that knowledge above all else using it equally for the greater good. But given we can not even agree on what sockets to put into walls or what side of the road to drive on its pretty clear we live in a fractured world which to return to the point is possibly what the Engineers arrived to. Maybe its in our MAKEUP to do it the confusing way.

To return to the issue of story telling I needed away to ensure that David and Elizabeth could communicate effectively with whom ever they meet when they arrive wherever they arrive. I achieved this in three ways.

Elizabeth studied Indo-European during the Crossing.

David offered a science fiction solution in the delivery.

The "widjom erko" were quick learners for reasons that will become clear and as they said Indo European leads into amongst other things English so they were not completely at sea.

That Ridley Scott had a hunch that the Engineers in Prometheus would speak that particular base language tells us he got lucky that day (haha).   

"In the filmed section with the acolyte the elder who provides the acolyte with the catalyser speaks in the same language. So whoever the occupants of the tear drop ship are they to speak P.I.E. Naturally"

Certainly was interesting for them to use this Language and give the Engineers a Language that has some BASIS to a Ancient Language (despite some Questions which i will reply to IgnorantGuys message with).

There was quite a bit that we NEVER got to see in Prometheus... we only have a few scraps of the Engineer Scenes...  We do get some glimpses of the Acolyte and Elders Scene (not in the movie or deleted Scene segments) and that was some Dialog... between the one Elder and the Acolyte  (the part about lead your body become the dirt)  but what we dont have is the FULL scene, because in a Interview with the Actor who played the Acolyte Daniel Twiss he said he had to LEARN a few lines of a ALIEN Language for some Dialog... so they must have Shot a Scene where we had TWO-Way Dialog between the Elder and Sacrificial Acolyte

Micheal Fassbender even said he had to Learn a number of Pages of PIE Dialect, but we dont see him use too much even in the Deleted Scenes and Ian Whyte had to learn and spoke some Lines too... but his Lines where Dubbed Over with some Gibberish.  So indeed it would have been interesting to had seen more of the Engineers and Dialect in other movies.

Regarding the 6 Heads.... indeed this is the most we get to see in any shot, and in concept work... but i am wondering are there more? Because we NEVER really get to see whats behind the Camera Perspective/Viewers and looking at the Uniform Layout in a Circle of those 6 heads and the Area we dont see (Camera Position) i think there is Space (following the Pattern/Space) for another TWO..  i cant say for sure if this was the case though... but i also HAVE not read the Official Novel or any Drafts for Alien Covenant YET... (i must get round to it).  But in the Elders Scene in Prometheus there was 8 Elders, but this does not mean there are 8 in the Hall of Heads room.

It certainly would be interesting to find out more about WHO those beings where in Alien Covenant, and if they connect to the ones in Prometheus... we have to bare in mind as this was a deleted Scenes, while there MAY be elders... we cant say there appearance would be as in Prometheus (Very Pale with Dark Sclera)  It would certainly be interesting to Discover more about these and their History and get to see these Elders on Screen.... Sadly i am not sure we ever will.

"Otherwise, how can one explain ancient Egyptian or the various Semitic language contemporary to PIE (different engineers, different languages but that is contrived)?"

A very Valid Point, i think it raises a few Problems for sure... if we are being FED that the Engineers Language influenced early Humans.  Raising the Question about WHY they did not speak Ancient Egyptian yet influenced Ancient Mankind is Valid...  PIE was spoken about 2500-4500 BC   Where as Ancient Egypt was about 3000 BC for the most part...  so we have to Wonder If the Engineers taught Mankind to speak then should they not have Influenced Egyptian too.

I think the writers never thought that far as they maybe think it was not important and a oversight and people would not be trying to Directly make deep connections.  or Nit Pick at contradictions.

In Hindsight... they should have based the Language and Writing on Ancient Mesopotamian as this is more Chariots of the Gods/Ancient Astronaut.... but then we would still face the Problem of how other Languages had came about also around 2500-3500 BC

I suppose RS could give a simple Answer like this... in that just as Humans have different Languages from different Continents/Counties then WHY cant the Engineers.   But we have to ask ourselves IF Mankind Survives for another 3000 years and we start to Colonize Space and become very Advanced... WHAT Language would we be speaking then?  English? Some New Language or would we be using a Few Different Languages but have ONE common one?

I think maybe this could be a Answer RS would give, and so that PIE was just the Ancient English to those Engineers but they also may have Spoken a Few more Ancient Languages too.

The same kind of inconsistencies happen with the Engineer Writing.. maybe it should have been based off some actual Ancient Writing in more Detail?  Like Sumerian Cuneiform  we see some influences of this have been used...

What we do see with Prometheus is INDEED we have THREE different kinds of Cuneiform/Writing the more Prominent Engineer Writing we see on their Monuments/Walls/Doors etc, but there is a different Cuneiform on the Sacrificial Cup/Bowl and yet another different Cuneiform/Writing on the Urns/Vases that store the Black Goo.

So maybe there IS-NOT just One main used Engineer Language but many?

EDIT:

"plan and mankind as in the story of Babel was getting above itself. That maybe why we have 14 root languages"

Nice Catch.... i think that could be interesting to touch upon the Tower of Babel Mythos and how after we had collaborated to build a monument to Reach the Gods... God chose to set out and have Mankind to end up using various Languages to Confuse us and to make it that our whole World Can-Not communicate and collaborate again.  This certainly could be ONE way to explore those differences ;)

I also like your comment about the Plugs and what side of the Road, as we are a Fractured Civilization and indeed could similar had happened with the Engineers?   Indeed Prometheus has clues, especially as far as RS comments that we could be dealing with more than ONE Faction of Engineers.  or implying another Related Race.

Throughout the movie, both (P and AC) we hear a consistent message that there is nothing special to creation of life - all you need is a dash of DNA and half a brain, in the words of Charlie. Evidenced also by David who found a powerful component that facilitated the creation story.

While apparently religious tendency of the engineers is ambiguous (ie why they covet installing giant heads all over different planets) it allows one to ponder about and facilitates numerous interpretations to come forward.

For instance : who are these heads they have in the hall? It must be that those heads are molded after some sort of noble and distinctive leaders from the past. They must be from the past. And here is why : we know these engineers are mortal. And, I take it, there is nothing special about those engineers that died in big numbers in the coliseum, that is, each of these people did not have an effigy dedicated to each of them - they are commoners, unremarkable people. They looked as simpletons to me - they gather in large numbers, on foot to witness arrival of a ship. Seems like they had much time on their hand to spare it so fruitlessly. If they were these majestic people, pre-occupied with scheming, creation of life questions they would have a lot less time for such activities as cheering in crowds an arrival of some cargo ship! We see these folks getting excited about a cargo ship arriving. This speaks volumes about them. In the space and age of space travel, technology, fascination about creation of life...roaring the universe, we get to see these folks...getting excited about a single ship arrival. Yet, we see that their brethren on LV223 were doing interesting things with tech - certainly they had ships and technology beyond what humans ever possessed. They do holography and are doing genetic experiments. These are the serious people. Seems like those back at home are sort of useless people, sort of.

So to sum it up somewhat, we have this rather sharp divide amongst engineers : the technologically backwards dwellers and those advanced guys from LV223. The backwards guys have heads carved out of stone. You know, it is a cliche thing to do, but we can probably and to some degree of certainty, safely assume that these heads are their creators/fore-bearers - their Adams and Eves. It must be, because everyone else on that planet is so unremarkable. Imagine how David must have valued them. Recall his remark about idle hands ... here is a civilization, folks who had all this time and they are sitting on their hands, for millennia, mortal. No two ways about this - they are as interesting to him as kindergarten toddlers are to high school seniors. They are sitting there all these years, with a giant levitating dock in the air...seemingly.

However backwards and useless these people were, if we trace back the events of how we are introduced to them we must note that it was David who took us there - Shaw asked him to take them where the LV223 engineers came from. And it must be that he learned about that planet and its location while being on the juggernaut and/or from his exploration of the ship/writings. David didn't know about the engineer planet before the Prometheus crew landed on LV223. And if he learned it on LV223, then that information must have been printed/written all over the place. And it must be somewhat self-explanatory where they came from, how to open the doors all of it really. David learned all this while being only a short while on the planet - he couldn't have learned all that if that was not meant to be learned by engineers of LV223. All this info, a self explanatory manual if you like, is written explicitly, for the visiting engineers to learn. That must be what those writings on the walls meant. At least clues are left all over the place. We know that while David, even though is very advanced, he still learns in a way humans do - he had to watch the movies, learn the languages in a similar fashion. But he still needed time to learn languages - recall Charlie's remark about how his learning was going. He is however relentless and has infinite time and patience compared to humans.

Recall - we are told that the head remnants of the engineer is carbon dated to approximately 2000 years. The curious thing about to keep in mind is this. 2000 years give or take is the time that particular engineer has lived for AND been dead for, COMBINED. So 2000 years is a long time even for an engineer. And they do value time. This is easy to glean - they need cryo sleep for space travel or even to perform their tasks on LV223. Now, that guy in stasis has been sleeping all this time. And if he is related to the folks back at home he has been missing for that time. Does anybody remember him back at home? 2000 years? His contemporaries must be dead and nobody remember him(unless they all hibernate in stasis, which they don't). So..surely..if one ascribes human comparable life expectancy to the engineers, nobody recalls him, unless .. he is either being immortalized by being the face on one of the stones (which is unlikely).. or he is a member of a cast of engineers who are known back at their home by their role - they are essentially gardeners of engineers. That is, their role is to produce/mine engineers in numbers on different planets suitable for life and then transport some of them back to their original home - to the planet of those old style, tech shunning folks. I guess, and this is my opinion, that is how they sustain their population back at home. And that might be the reason the folks were excited to see the ship arriving - a new batch of members are coming in. And this is the divide of responsibilities between those tech savvy and tech shunning engineers - a covenant of sort? Curiously, and I posted this before and I am compelled here to walk back what I said before :  not one face of a female on the stone. We are shown at least, what 6+ effigies in total and none of them were females. And no females on the planet by the looks of it. Looking at the evidence  - yeah, it is likely, those guys don't really reproduce sexually. However, Who knows for certain, it is not ruled out completely that the female engineers might be doing exactly the same thing. But, in any case, they must be mined - seeded. And if you think about it, seeding is much more efficient and stable(this is important) way of multiplying in numbers - one man/carrier of DNA is seeding a planet and thousands or perhaps millions of that specimen show up as a result. And this seeding doesn't rely on evolution and because of redundancy, the process is kind of foolproof. This way of creation is still vulnerable to mutations, but it is much less so vulnerable than the sexual reproduction which actually relies on random mutations in populations. No wonder they do what they do then, heh? It makes a bit of sense(at least in sci-fi world). But there is the difficulty here. The catastrophic events on LV223 took place about 2000 years ago, David and Shaw then go to the planet - and they, the engineers are not dead, without being visited by their gardeners. How come? Do they live for thousands of years? I don't know how to account for this. I do not think they live for so long though, having exact same DNA we live what, 100 years at most. And in any case those downshifters, they have missed the ship visiting from LV223 for at least 2000 years. Perhaps this is the reason they got so excited to meet the ship? It must be one of the reasons as well. And if their population is sustained by other engineers with installations on different planets like LV223, they surely could relay the message to visiting crew that they haven't heard from the LV223 folks for a long time - somebody must go and check what is happening there, but apparently nobody ever got there. So, this is a hard one for me to explain. How did they not die out if they rely on population being seeded?

Another curiosity is the fact that the events on LV223 happened about 2000 years before the Prometheus crew landed on LV223. And when David woke up the old fellow(he is alive for more than 2000 years), that old fellow did not bother to check out what happened to his fallen brothers - he didn't care about the plague, the breakout, but his first priority was to go and destroy Earthlings. So this guy recognized what sort of beings were standing before him, he knew where these folks came from. That is, he knew where humans lived! This is not the first time he came to know about or even perhaps see humans. The implications are huge - this  might be not the first time he was cleansing Earth. Thus, if civilizations come and go on earth, I suspect it is because of these engineers. Now, what is it that humans do, that warrants this cleansing? And how engineers then repopulate the Earth, not with engineers actually but with humans?! It has to be humans, because on every painting there are these humans worshiping anthropomorphically different giant dude, supposedly an engineer, pointing at a constellation known as LV223. How do they maintain human population continuity on Earth? Do they destroy humans, except for a small group of people, who are then allowed to start over from scratch, yet leave all the other flora and fauna intact every so often? Another possibility is that they have a mutagen type, which specifically catalyses humans from engineer DNA when seeded. And they have been doing this to humans for at least 35000 years(as Holloway and Shaw found the painting on the island of Skye in Scotland, their most recent discovery dated that old). At this point my best guess as to why they wipe out civilizations is because of human ingenuity and creativity and inherent drive for advancement goes in contrary with their way of life and their expectations. Perhaps humans get destroyed every so often because engineers wanted their human children to be more like themselves and they wanted them to make similar choices, where humans were supposed to live like those tech shunning folks back at home in "paradise". But this is not in human nature to sit idle forever, doing nothing but worshiping - so engineers probably got into habit of destroying humanity every so often. But the events on LV223 allowed humanity develop uninhibited for two millennia. They got AI and space travel. But they didn't figure out that their makers were not going to grant them these luxuries and unlimited freedom. And especially immortality(a gift which, probably even they do not posses. Or do they and this is how they kept living without visits from LV223, but why the need for cryo sleep then?) Especially, because humans could wander to the home planet of engineers and it could all end in tears for the latter fellows. In any case, I wonder, why did engineers bother to keep humans alive at all as a specie? I don't know. Why not wipe the planet and re-seed from scratch? I don't know this either. They kept doing this until, apparently, things went to pot for them at some point.

Engineers on LV223 have left those instructions and writings on the wall for their own people. Every once in a while they go back to their paradise bringing freshly mined folks from different planets and take one of the downshifters, who is now ready to become the seeding engineer. They might be going through some bootcamp back at home where newbies get indoctrinated with their story and ways of life. This new aspirant probably gets instructed on how to proceed on how to operate as a seeding engineer. What to do and what not to do with the goo, catalyzer. And as a warning for the newly initiated, they had the fresco depicting what seems like an alien precursor which just hatched from an engineer. It might have been the result of some of their numerous experiments - notoriously dangerous one. In any case, that place with urns and the effigy is set up there not for humans, but for engineer themselves. Btw, the urns were of different size. Some were big, and some were not so big. Some were sweating and some were not. I guess the ones that were leaking black goo were supposed to deliver the deadly payload in case of an unauthorized access. A deadly security measure? But who were they targeting it against if only their own people are supposed to get there? And where did the worms come from? It is a trivial life form, but still, where did it come from

For now, this is what I think was likely going on there. I hope you can help out with the difficult parts and point out the inconsistencies. This doesn't at all explain where engineer's themselves came from. This all is just a speculation on my part, and most certainly doesn't capture what actually transpired there. But I tried to fit the voids between the actual facts that happened in the movies, filling in the gaps with somewhat plausible explanations. Btw, I believe the recurring question of who created engineers( and who created their creators and so on) is not going to be settled in the movies. Because any explanation would probably be a bit unsatisfactory and thus it would be better if it remained as a myth. But, the core message is still the same - there is nothing sacred about creation - it just takes a potent catalyst a dash of DNA and that is it. The trouble is, and this is what makes the story interesting - to sustain and contain the life in some sort of equilibrium. That is shown to be difficult(probably impossible) to achieve as life is likely a process that just hangs about in an unstable equilibrium. A single seemingly random event can change the course of the future. And therefore, inevitably, there is not stopping the progress of events and there is no way foretelling the future since everything is a result of incidents, chance events and of course some determinism. Engineers tried to contain humanity, missed a beat and look what happened to them. What the movie shows us is that even these engineers, superior species are error prone, fallible and therefore very humane. I can't recall precisely, but there is this paradox of time machine - if you try to predict the future and take an avoiding/evasive action and apply containment procedure, you can't be quite sure about what outcomes your actions will entail and therefore your intervention is not guaranteed to bring the results you expected in the first place. If that makes sense at all.

"Throughout the movie, both (P and AC) we hear a consistent message that there is nothing special to creation of life"

This is ONE of the biggest Questions and Themes that it really depends what route they are taking, indeed we are shown that Mankinds Creation is NOTHING Divine or by Divine means, and we merely are the result of coming from the Sacrificial Remains of a Engineer, and while its a case of all you need is DNA, the Sacrificial Goo is what allowed them to Pass on their DNA..  Ridley Scott informs us these Engineers had came back over and over and Engineered us, so its NOT a case of Seed a World and let Evolution/Natural Selection take its Course...  The Engineers continued to Tinker with our Evolution.  But INDEED it shows we are but a Genetic Experiment, David is created from NOTHING too, by using Synthetic Materials and the Brilliance of Scientific Evolution, you could say David is the more Perfect Creation then because his Process took less time and was not created from passing down Genetic Material etc.

Its very open to how they explore this NOTHING Special, i think it depends on if they explore the reason for WHY we was created, it could be as Holloway said because we COULD...  but then when we look at David he was not just created because we could.. there are a number of reasons for his Creation.

*Legacy....Pursuit of Peter Weylands Genius to push boundaries in Science and Creating a AI who is Virtually indistinguishable from ourselves, would be some ACHIEVEMENT for Weyland that would Cement himself as being a GENIUS and possibly make him feel he has achieved Greater than any Man has before... This will suit his God Complex.

*Companionship... Peter Weyland has NO Son, maybe he longed for one and this is why he created a Male Synthetic and WHY David was allowed more Free-Will than being a Machine like Walter.  We can assume in a Future when Synthetics become Reality then Companionship would be ONE reason people would want Synthetics.

*Idolization...... this is a extension of Companionship, where a Synthetic would be a being that would Worship, and place their Master above all.  Where a Synthetic would serve, their Master without Question.  This would be fitting for Owners who potentially have a low esteem or have had a History of feeling Let Down, Unappreciated and feel people they know, Family just dont respond or view/treat them in a way they Desire.  For someone like Weyland having a being who would have 100% Loyalty and Worship/Servitude  to him without Question would appease his Vanity and God Complex.

*Service.... we can see Synthetics would be used to Perform Tasks that people would, and they would be used to replace people with a variety of tasks, be they Servants, Workforce/Labor even as far as being used to Perform Tasks that could be Physically/Mentally draining for a Human.  Having Synthetics do a lot of our Tasks, saves Mankind from such Chores, especially risky tasks and also Synthetics could perform a number of tasks more Efficiently.

*Greater Purpose/Agenda... the Final thing to consider is what if there is some Greater Agenda at play?  Would a Synthetic be more than a Legacy, a Carrying on in the Name of their Creator/Master. Especially if they cant have anyone to Carry on their Legacy.  Or is their some Specific Agenda for a Eventually Dying Weyland and Legacy?   Was David Created as a attempt to Prolong Weyland not only in Legacy but was his Creation for a Personal Purpose to allow for the Creator to Live on...  (If Weyland could upload his Soul to a AI and Transfer it to a Synthetic would he not LIVE ON) were as without the Creation of the Synthetic... when the Creator (Weyland) Dies then there is NOTHING.

I touch upon these as they are a Big Thing to consider...  as the Question of WHY was we created is maybe One of the Most Important Ones that the Franchise asks...  Maybe when asking WHY we was created we could ask WHY was David Created... and when we look at various Creation Mythos, there are some connecting reasons for Creation that match those Points above...  so i am not sure it would be purely because THEY COULD. This reveal would be on one hand a cop out but on another potentially makes us insignificant which we may be to a degree....  but i do get the impression our Creation was not for NOTHING.  But the reason for it could be very SINISTER.

Then as Dr Shaw wanted to propose...   WHO Created THEM..  and again maybe those points apply to WHY the Engineers were created... it is a interesting THEME to explore with the Layers of Creation, how far does this Ladder Go and is any point of this Divine, or a continuation of Mankind/Davids Creation or is any point from purely a accidental/natural EVENT?

"And it must be that he learned about that planet and its location while being on the juggernaut and/or from his exploration of the ship/writings. David didn't know about the engineer planet before the Prometheus crew landed on LV223"

Indeed... We dont know what clues on LV-223 there are to point to Paradise/Planet 4.  David found out about this Place when the Engineer had said that HE/THEY did not come from this place (LV-223) but from a Place we would regard as Paradise.  Dr Shaw then wanted to go to this place for Answers, and David would likely had found where this place was by looking at their Holographic Star Map and being able to Plot where these ships had been coming from.

"he couldn't have learned all that if that was not meant to be learned by engineers of LV223"

Indeed.... again there may have been clues all over the place to the Location, we can be sure those Engineers knew what Planet 4 was.  But the deleted scene, Dr Shaw asks "what did he say before he tore your head off" to David and David had informed Dr Shaw these beings came from Paradise so the Engineer had at some point informed him of this.  David once he knows this could then look for clues, but i think its likely he found out where to go from the Hologram Star Map.

But certainly we can only Ponder what David learned prior to getting his HEAD pulled off, we can assume he could read all those Hieroglyphs and we can only Guess what they actually all said. David would have to learn stuff like us, but he would be able to learn/remember in a instant...  If someone showed him the keys to a Tune to play on a Instrument we can assume David only needs to be shown ONCE and he would remember it... so he would only need to Peer at a Wall of Words ONCE and it would be embedded into his Memory.

What you have wrote is interesting and i will respond after this Once i read it all... but i will just reply to these TWO points first prior to carrying on with your reply.

"who are these heads they have in the hall? "

Indeed these are from the Past, they are very Important to their whole Civilization and Culture.  Ridley Scott had answered WHO they was to some reporters on SET... he said they WAS

*The Disciples/Apostles and so they are beings, advocates of the Rituals/Religion and Ways of the Engineers, Followers, Teachers of the intended WAYS of their kind, they are devoted and pass on either these Ways that they had established themselves or these are the Rituals and Ways of some Being/Beings or Cause that they Follow.

*Wise Men.... implies these beings are very old, and have a wealth of Knowledge either passed down through many years or that took many years to learn.  It implies that all the Knowledge and Teachings of the Engineers Society was passed on by these beings.  They either obtain this Knowledge or Came up with it or they had been chosen to pass this knowledge handed to them by something Being/Being or Cause.

*Superior Beings... this point is more ambiguous... we have to Ponder WHO are they Superior to, and HOW are they superior to the Engineers?  is this in relation to those beings on Planet 4? or was Ridley Scott meaning they are Superior to Mankind... but does this mean those Engineers are NOT really that Superior.  Are they Genetically Superior, Intellectually Superior or is there some other more Divine Superiority?  This point is one that is more Open for Debate.

Another member of Production then told the Press on Set that those Hall of Heads were the HIERARCHY of the Engineers. This means they have a Higher Status of Authority, are more Direct Lineage to the Origins of those Engineers and maybe the CLERGY of the whole Engineer Ritual/Religious System and over all Purpose/Agenda.

"each of these people did not have an effigy dedicated to each of them - they are commoners, unremarkable people"

This is a interesting thing to bring up, indeed they all seemed pretty much run of the mill and NOT important as those Hall of Heads Elders/Apostles and so they are not no Royalty or Political High Ranking Figures....  However there are a Number of Statues in the Plaza on those Pillars, are these of the Elders/Apostles too?

This Place did have a look of a Ancient Civilization and WHY did they not seem to Embrace or have a Abundance of Technology like we see in the LV-223 Engineers?  Yet there is some Technology, we see they have some form of Lighting, we see what look like Reflective Instruments in the City, we see the Cathedral/Citadel has some Gold like Technological looking Device..  are these a Source of Power like Solar? who knows but they are Technology.  Yet these beings remain to look more Ancient, they even carry out Tasks in Ancient ways with more Ancient Technology (Farming/Harvesting).

Did they SHUN Technology for some reason?

But then we have the Hanger, which is Technology that opens to accept a Juggernaught which is Technology and is Guarded by the Docking Ship which was some kind of Security/Border Control.

We are led to believe those LV-223 Engineers are the Military, and those Planet 4 Engineers are welcoming back the Ship like say WE would our War Heroes back from Conflict/War but then we have to ask....  is this NOT unusual if the last time any of this ships had been here was over 2000 years ago... especially when Ridley Scott claims those Engineers on Planet 4 live for about 150 years... they would never had seen one in their Life-Time and so knowledge/information must have been passed on over the Generations about the Military Juggernauts and their Mission.

WHY was they not concerned with the Ship, IF they know it is Military and maybe what Deadly Weapons they Carry?  They maybe could ASSUME this ship has returned from Deploying its Weapons and is Empty..  Even so...  we also need to look at OUR Military and a returning Battle Ship or Nuclear Sub being welcomed back, we know they have Weapons of Great Destruction but we NEVER expect our own Military would use these on their own Nation when returning to Port.

Maybe this is why they was NOT concerned...  it was like "oh look its one of our Military Ships we have been told about, i am so excited to see what they are like" but then they are pretty NAIVE for not Wondering WHY it had been so long...  are they AWARE of the LV-223 Outpost Outbreak?  If so would they NOT have Concerns?

Off course if they was not AWARE of LV-223 or the Outbreak it would explain a lack of FEAR but another thing to consider is we DONT know if LV-223 was the only Place these Juggernauts came from... or indeed maybe there are OTHERS that have came back and forth in the years after the Outbreak... so maybe they have other OUTPOSTS

Ridley Scott says the Ships Return at Set Times and so they likely come and go to Planet 4 at set Intervals and so maybe some of those beings have seen them before.  Also worth mentioning is the Concept Work and Deleted Scene shows the HANGER has other Juggernauts inside.   So if we Consider the Deleted Scene Reveal as Canon as in INDEED the Place has other Ships, this would explain the Engineers Lack of Fear for those Ships.

Accepting this raises TWO Questions..

1) Would these Juggernauts have any Bio-Weapons, or are these beings not Foolish enough to Store Ships that have any Bio-Weapons. And so any returning/docked Ships MUST not have any Payload?

2) Surely David maybe could find a way to Re-Activate those Ships, it has been explained (in the draft) they had been disabled as a Precaution, but would the Engineers have a WAY to Disable their Ships but then have NO way to Re-Activate them.   A Logical Explanation is they can only be Controlled/Activated by the Docking Ship and as this CRASHED it meant as this was the only way to Activate/Dis-activate the Ships in the Hanger, Once the Docking/Border Control Ship had Crashed... maybe it was Damaged to a Degree that those Ships are not Permanently Dis-activated unless another Docking Ship or Ship with same Safeguards/Access arrives.

But i want to just FINISH this point in Relation to your Point..

"each of these people did not have an effigy dedicated to each of them - they are commoners, unremarkable people"

I dont BUY those points i tried to make... i am leaning more Towards these are NOT Military Ships, but Seeding Ships and the Urns and Juggernauts are a EVOLUTION of the Pebble/Teardrop Ships and dropping off a Engineer to Drink the Sacrificial Catalyzer

The Big Theme is still these Engineers are SPACE GARDENERS and not War Mongering Race who Create to Destroy but i could be Wrong..

I think this Place (Planet 4) is like the Garden of Eden (hence only ONE City on this World) its like the Cradle of Engineer Civilization and their Sacrificial Rituals are that the deemed most WORTHY and PURE and PERFECT of these beings are Chosen to be Sacrifices to Seed their DNA to Worlds and in doing so they are REMEMBERED for this by Erecting those Statues on the Pillars, so these Sacrificial Offerings will be kind of IMMORTALIZED in Stone, but also Live on in the DNA they pass on to Worlds/Life. 

To me i am drawn more to the CREATION, Gardeners of Space, Sacrificial Rituals and Offering and broad concept of Creation, rather than Military Experiments/Xenomorph aspect of the Engineers.  This Place is referred to as Paradise and i think we need to look more in context of What is Paradise (Place where the Worthy, Pure and Sinless are allowed) and also Paradise as in the Place where the Garden of Eden is located (Cradle of Creation)...  Then consider the Hanger is surrounded by Buddha Style Offering Statues... How would this FIT? well to offer themselves as Sacrifice.

Thats just my interpretation that MAKES sense to me, but its not to say this is WHAT is at play..

I made this post before Finishing reading your last post, so i will do that now and see what your TWO cents are and i am looking forwards to reading that.

Thanks for the Contribution... i think maybe this should all be on a different thread  but i guess any place is good to debate.

I will come back to the LV-223 Connections/Outbreak points you made latter on...  i will cover up until you wrote "Another curiosity is the fact that the events on LV223 happened about 2000 years before the Prometheus crew landed on LV223."

So i will respond to these ones in order of quickest to give my opinion.

"having exact same DNA we live what, 100 years at most"

The points raised by you are interesting, to Ponder how old these beings are...   Ridley Scott has mentioned those Engineers on Planet 4 are the Originals (could he had meant the Hall of Heads though?) but he also said they LIVE for about 150 years.  So your Points/Questions about how these beings survive on Planet 4 are very interesting to debate.  I will come back to your idea of how they Procreate after... but i will say that YES they Genetically Matched us but this was a Oversight, i think it was meant to show us WE came from them but by them making the Proof as in a 100% Match it can lead us to suggest they are 100% like us. RS having said they live for 150 years is pretty close to us... and Originals?  Could this be that LV-223 ones are Genetically Enhanced, are they like Replicants to them.... would in Blade Runner a Replicant be a DNA Match to Humans?

"somebody must go and check what is happening there, but apparently nobody ever got there"

This again is something that we get a idea of from Ridley Scott, he says Engineers return to and from Planet 4 and Regular Intervals, so someone does come and go and keep check, we dont know how OFTEN, but it is likely less than Thousands of Years.  With the LV-223 Outpost this Raises some Questions... but then we cant say for sure IF that place was the only Outpost of its kind, or indeed the only place apart from Planet 4 where these Juggernauts arrive/depart and are Stored.  Ridley Scott said the Engineers will return to Planet 4, and its likely they dont return from LV-223 but some place else and they have been gone for certainly LONGER than 10 years.  But it must mean they go around to other Worlds, and may have other Outposts and we have to Question is Planet 4 their Homeworld/Base...  Its unusual for them to place all their Eggs in One Basket in ONE City.

But maybe we need to look at this as just what the Garden of Eden was, as this was the Place Adam and Eve were created and allowed to Dwell,  having them KEPT in Once place means that GOD can Monitor/Control and Keep a Eye on them.  So its quite like the City in the Movie Aeon Flux where after nearly dying out.... the Survivors of Mankind are kept in a Walled City called Bregna watched over by a Surveillance Ship called the Relical and i think maybe Aeon Flux could actually not be TOO FAR different to what the Plot/Purpose of that City in Alien Covenant has.

"And no females on the planet by the looks of it. Looking at the evidence  - yeah, it is likely, those guys don't really reproduce sexually. However, Who knows for certain"

As i had mentioned before the idea from what lead to Prometheus was the Engineers had Engineered themselves to a point they lost the ability to Procreate.  But when i saw the Set Leaked Photos for Alien Covenant during Production we clearly could see FEMALES.  It got me thinking WHY do they have Females, if they have them then WHY the Sacrificial Route?   They also seemed to be Smaller than Engineers and it got me to think are these Hybrids...  or DID they loose Females and the Sacrificial Scene was a way to eventually Create/Obtain Females to Breed With and ONCE they had achieved this, they took them to Planet 4 to allow their Race to Survive, but this would result in Hybrids which is maybe why they LOOKED different... IF this was the purpose then once they had Humanoid Females they would THEN not need Human Males and so we have outlived our Purpose and maybe we are then not needed but we was kept alive until we rebelled a bit and then as we are not needed they decided to Eradicate us.... This is ONE theory though.

However when looking back at RS comments on Prometheus he claimed the Engineers could Create in other ways (i wondered Cloning as surely that would be Childs Play for a Advanced Race, but maybe at a Cost/Imperfections down the Line).  I certainly DID-NOT think they had Females... i thought maybe they LOST them and had at one point, but i pondered WHY seed Worlds if they Can Procreate Normally..  But Ridley Scott said after Prometheus they Can Create Life in other Ways but the Sacrificial Route is just the WAY they CHOOSE to do it.

Flash Forwards to Alien Covenant and indeed we find out these beings have FEMALES... But can they Procreate?  What you proposes was interesting, and shows indeed there has to be more to them and their Ships than was Bombers...   And so Seeding Worlds to then bring back beings back to Paradise is certainly a Possibility its one i am drawn to, and i'm Glad you kind of see it the same way.  So its interesting that you propose these beings Live Limited Life Spans which RS confirms, and that the Seeding and then bringing the results back is the only way these beings can Self Sustain... i agree to a degree YES at some point this may have been the Purpose for the Seeding.

However... there are CLUES these Females Can Procreate, Davids Drawings he Tested on Infant and Child Engineers, the Females have Breasts/Nipples.   And Davids Experiments needed some Basis, and he uses Dr Shaw at the end as the results with the Engineers were not quite working...  I think this shows the Engineers had Reproductive Ability, just that David found Human Reproductive Cells proved more Fruitful for his Work.... and WHY Dr Shaw was used.

Which still raises the Question WHY Seed Worlds... if these beings can Procreate.... 

A Interesting Comment by RS is that the ENGINEERS are NOT a RACE but they are a Civilization and he also said that as Mankind has many various Races/Differences, WHY cant the Engineers.  so your point about the SEEDING vs Natural Sexual Reproduction does hold some Valid Points....   Would Seeding offer less complications/mutations?  But then i dont think the Seeding was a case of Engineer Sacrifices himself and weeks/years latter we have Humans.. it appears to be a LONGER process.

But your point applies... because well its similar to pondering do these Engineers Seed Worlds to Create some Cultural Diversity within the Species?  And touching on my Theory.... Sacrificing Many Engineers and using their DNA in the Urns/Mutagen to Bomb/Seed Worlds would give more Diversity DNA wise than rely on a Single Engineers DNA.

" I guess, and this is my opinion, that is how they sustain their population back at home. And that might be the reason the folks
were excited to see the ship arriving"

I think i covered a reply in this post.... but indeed your whole point is very interesting, i'm drawn to their being a similar purpose to it all too.  Nice to see you can take certain ideas from the Clues, and it shows there is more to these beings SURELY than just Seeding Earth for No Reason, to then Destroy us.

The other Reason could be to Create us to use as Sacrifices for Xenomorph or Related Organisms... to use us to be HOSTS for the Black Goo to Evolve into Xenomorph like Organisms...   This is SINISTER and who knows..

But i think its a bit Narrow Minded as a Plot and more connecting to ALIEN and being simple.... when actually the Plot for Prometheus has much larger Scope than this... I think the Space Gardeners Plot is better and see the Xenomorph Experiments as a Weapon Created for Protection/Pesticide.... or the Crazy Idea of a Servant Race who have grown Tired of their Purpose to Serve... and become Fascinated with a Organism and Re-Engineer/Experiment with it.

THIS idea may sound like David.. and it is to a degree.. but what IF this idea of David has been done before and our LV-223 Engineers were the FIRST Davids so to speak...

Regarding the Surviving Engineer on LV-223 it really is still a Mystery to exactly what happened to this place, we do know there was some kind of Outbreak, the Question would be Accidental or on Purpose, we have to consider or ask, how long had these beings been working/experimenting with the Black Goo and what kinds of Safeguards are in place.  I think those Space Suits are more than just Flight suits, i think they could be some Bio-Hazard suits to Protect them from the Black Goo, or to Protect the Black Goo/Environment from becoming Contaminated by the Engineers.    If there are such Safeguards then it reduces the chances of the Outbreak being Accidental, but we cant rule that out.

Its difficult to know from the Movie IF the Engineer was aware of the Outbreak, but it likely could be that he may have been... Earlier Drafts for the movie Prometheus to indicate some Engineers appeared Calm while Preparing for the Mission (as David witnessed in the Hologram Play-back) But then latter after fast-forwarding the Play-Back we have the Last Engineer looking in a  Panic and rushing to his Cryo-Pod. (this was omitted for the movie), as i discussed prior the Plans for the Construction of the Set had that Engineers Cryo-Pod as the HERO Chamber... which is interesting... but as Prometheus has been Edited/Cut it could be certain ideas they originally intended had been changed during shooting and post shooting.

Would the Engineer had known who Mankind are?  I think so, would he know what we look like?  again i think its likely but even if not, he would know we are made in their Image and so when Humanoids turn up he certainly must know who we are...  The Question is really how much does he know about us and our appearance and what other Worlds had been Seeded/Evolved to have Humanoids and DO they all look like Humans? Or is there something distinctive about us that would allow the Engineer to know we are from Earth?  I would say that he was in the KNOW about where his Mission was intended and that we HAD to come from Earth.   He did seem more Surprised that Angry that we turned up and WOKE him up....  Its almost like he NEVER expected us to be Evolve on our own and END UP finding this Place.  How Angry and Why... really does depend on Which Scenes you watch and take on board.... The Theatrical Cut gives the impression he was not pleased and they are Angry Gods.... and i think we have to take the Theatrical as Canon and maybe cant look at how he responded in the Deleted Scenes or consider what the HERO Chamber on the Schematics of the Juggernaught Pilot/Control Room implied.

"The implications are huge - this  might be not the first time he was cleansing Earth"

Indeed, hitting the reset switch could be something they have done in the Past, a lot then means we have to ASK what was the reason for our Creation..  If its a case of just for Meat-bags... so our DNA, or to be used as Hosts for Genetic Experiments, then its a case of WHY go through the Effort of Educating us.   Just build a Massive City Plaza like on Planet 4, make a Wall around it that has no Entrance/Exit and so only by Flight can it be accessed.. Then basically build basic Shelter inside and provide Food... leave us as no more than Cave-Men with a Safer Place to Dwell and Easier route to Food etc...

Why do they NOT learn about giving us Free-Will and Knowledge if these Experiments keep on Failing so they have to hit the RESET switch.... this raises a Few Questions...  DID they require us to Evolve to a certain Stage as far as Intellectual Level... was it necessary for us to be taught to be Civilized and Build our own Constructions?  What was their Desired Outcome for us?  if things went to PLAN?

Or was our Evolution as far as Knowledge which lead to our Fall, was this NOT intended, and thus we was given knowledge by some beings or Faction of Engineers that was not intended... so that some Group of Engineers had Acted like the Prometheus of this situation or if you would the Lucifer in granting their Creation the Forbidden Knowledge?

Ridley Scott had mentioned at the time of Prometheus, he had pondered that Earth have Civilizations prior to ours, and mentioned ATLANTIS he has also at times mentioned the Engineers have had to Reset Creation a number of times in the Past too.

Here is the KICKER... was this always via the Black Goo? I cant see the point really, as the implications of a Black Goo Bombardment, or Xenomorph Organisms would surely lead to a World that is not a Safe Haven for any Life...  This is more a case of LETS Nuke that City, rather than use other Chemical Weapons that would Kill Life but then after a Number of years leave the Infrastructure there to again Populate again.  And YES the Black Goo does this, but it Produces things like the Spores which Spawn a Deadly Parasite so its not exactly a Clean Slate.

If they was to use such a Weapon to Destroy Mankind but allow for a Reset Switch, then surely just using Sacrificial Goo, or Engineer DNA Goo would be better, so that all LIFE gets eradicated but from it Spawns Life based of the same DNA as the intentions with the Seeding of Worlds... a Reset Switch... which again leads me to think the JUGGERNAUT Purpose is NOT a Weapon of War..... but as a Action of a Seeding Ship, it would RESET Life back to the Earlier Stages of Evolution.   Rather than leading to Deadly Parasitic and Invasive Organisms.

"Do they destroy humans, except for a small group of people, who are then allowed to start over from scratch, yet leave all the other flora and fauna intact every so often?"

I agree again... from their POV we have to look at the Sacrificial Scene and ask how long ago was this, and so it appears it took a lot of time and investment to create Mankind (Alien Engineers it was a more simple Process as it was Evolving Primates) Prometheus gives me the indication of this being the START of Life on a World, well the Catalyst to Evolve into Complex Life and so Many Many Millions of Years ago.. or a Billion.  But as RS said we cant assume this was on Earth.. this could be the FIRST part of Seeding, then Hundreds of Thousands or Millions or years we see (maybe via constant experiments) they Create Mankind, and Primates...  maybe ONCE we get to some Ancient Ancestor of ours, these are taking to a Place/Places to be used as Genetic Stock for Spreading around the Galaxy... maybe Planet 4 is this Purpose?

Regardless i think its not very WISE and well Efficient to go through a lot of Effort from Scratch to get to Humans, then get displeased and WIPE the lot out back to Scratch...  i mean even for the BIBLICAL God he created Adam and Eve with Ease.... yet he chose to Save Noah and his Family from the FLOOD... Why not just create a Adam and Eve again?  So ABSOLUTELY it makes sense for them to Rescue/Take some Humanoids away from the Place they intend to Reset...

A lot of what you said is, true... well adds up to me, why they could even Contain Direct Human DNA in the Form of a Black Goo "Another possibility is that they have a mutagen type which specifically catalyses humans from engineer DNA when seeded." is exactly what i think too ;)

"where humans were supposed to live like those tech shunning folks back at home in "paradise"

I think thats very plausible, that they keep their Creations, why even their Genetic Stock at home, evolved to only a Certain more Primitive Level...   As you continue to explain in your post ;)

"Especially, because humans could wander to the home planet of engineers and it could all end in tears"

Certainly something to Worry about, a Concern that may have lead to WHY the Last Engineer carried on with his Mission even IF we assume he was some kind of Hero/Saboteur or even if not.... such Concerns are Good Reason to Eradicate us, i think the FEAR of what we could become is a Large Part of the reason for the Destruction..  It turns out after this Failed.... their Fears/Concerns turned out to Come True...

"Engineers on LV223 have left those instructions and writings on the wall for their own people. Every once in a while they go back to their paradise bringing freshly mined folks from different planets and take one of the downshifters"

It is certain these are their for the Engineers Eyes only, it would be interesting to find out WHAT these Writings say, the whole Murals and Fresco's too.  These are HUGE Questions that i think would have been interesting to find out about...   Was this PLACE intended for this Purpose we see in Prometheus all along?  I think indeed looking at the Star Maps which Date 35'000 years ago....  thats a Long Time to be working on a Bio-Weapon to Eradicate us, thats a long time to have this place Devoted to the Mural and Fresco, especially if this is the intentions for Mankind... then WHY leave us the Star Maps and come back to us over and over until 2000 years ago... WHY create a Bio-Weapon based on these Organisms or to Create them, and keep it Under Lock and Key for over 30'000 years and then only use or attempt to some 2000 years ago...  Did we have to Reach a Certain Level of Knowledge/Evolution to be used to Spawn such Horrors on the Mural?  Would infecting Earth 4000/2000 BC had made any difference?  Did we have to reach a Certain Population Size?

I would say NO to all of those, and it was used to Reset us because of how Unruly and Out of Control we became, but as i said prior... WHY not use a Black Goo that contains Engineer or Human DNA or the BASE stuff the Sacrificial Engineer had taken, so that from the ASHES of our Destruction we would RESET back Evolution to a point of Millions or years prior....   it makes NO sense to Reset us with the Mutagen that Turns us into such Beasts as in the Mural.

I think that some Engineers had tampered with, or encountered and experimented on something related to the Xenomorph Origins, or something was unleashed on them as Punishment, which they then used to experiment on...  And they at some point in the past, saw these Abominations as Interesting and even Perfect... and a Perverted Corrupted bunch of Engineers saw Great Interest in this BEAST that stood before them, and Admired its DNA as opposed to the Engineers/Humans and they Choose to Experiment and then USE this DNA to EVOLVE Earth.

To continue, i would say YES they likely took Samples of their Creations to LV-223 i see this place as ORIGINALLY a Sandbox, Nursery/Green House for these Engineers Genetic Experiments which they then Seed/Plant back to Earth when pleased with the Results.

Now to move on to the Black Goo...

" I guess the ones that were leaking black goo were supposed to deliver the deadly payload in case of an unauthorized access. A deadly security measure?"

Interesting to say the least, some have speculated its a Booby Trap, a JUST in case any Lifeforms get to this place.... i would assume they keep Life in Check, but if they have Seeded Many Worlds, it could be a lot of Hard Work to go to each World, and send missions to Eradicate them when they are deemed a Concern... But then its a bit Stupid to Leave Clues to this place.... but some think its done to Trap Mankind and set up a Booby Trap.... this is a RISK... but then you have to ask IF there was NO David, and NO-ONE to understand or see any of the Engineers Technology or know how to Read it... then what would the outcome had been for the Prometheus Crew?  All Dead?

I think its a Good Safeguard but i am not sure the intentions are always this (to Eradicate us and Lay a Back Up Trap).  But it is interesting that YES some Urns reacted and others did not, and then we have those in the Cargo Hold that was not effected..

I think we have to look at what was this ROOM (Big Head Room) there seemed to be a comprehensive set of Instructions or Warnings on the Door.  I think we need to look at what we see, which is that these Urns seem to not become infected until the Humans Affected the Environment, was our Respiratory System to Blame?  Was this the Purpose of those Engineer Suits?  And so If the Crew kept their Space Suits on would those Urns had remained Dormant?

It could just be a case of opening the Door affected the Room, but we see the Engineers had this Door open Thousands of Years ago and they was all making a EFFORT to Run to this Place...  Why Run from a Outbreak into a Room Full of even more of the Bio-Weapon?

We dont see any Engineers, what happened to those who MADE IT? we just dont know...  (Earlier Drafts show us the Engineers infected were running to a place they could KILL themselves, was this to Prevent what would happen to them? or just to KILL themselves Quickly to avoid a even worse inevitable Fate?

But we maybe cant take this as Canon and so if we look at the Movie then we just dont know what happened... what we do SEE however.. is the HEAD of the Engineer, it has kept in a Remarkable State or Preservation, yet the BODY on the other side of the Door appears to be HOLLOW (The Space Suit does).  Once the Head is Bagged and Tricked back to Life (activating Cells) with the Synapse Re-stabilizer we see the Engineer appears to be going through some changes, its Cells are Mutating and it seems the Infection is starting to take effect.

So DOES the Big Head Room provide a Sterile Environment which seems to SLOW-DOWN the Rate of the Infection of the Bio-Weapon? or even maybe Halts it?  As long as the Room is kept to a Certain Environment?

"And where did the worms come from? It is a trivial life form, but still, where did it come from"

This was a interesting part of the Movie, were these Organisms Native/Indigenous to LV-223.  They are not Earth-Worms (No Pun intended) so they could be Native to LV-223 or Accidentally brought to the place in the Past.... could they had played a Role in the Outbreak?  Certainly having such small Organisms Sneak into your Sandbox and you become unaware of this and becoming infected with your Bio-Weapon could lead to Hammerpedes in the PAST.  They could be a Good Candidate to what caused those Chest Buster Holes in the Engineers Cryo-Pods... as i find it a bit of a unprepared way to deal and allow for Face Huggers to Escape and Infect them... But we cant rule out them being infected while they was asleep by Rogue Engineers, or even with Alien Covenant, that the Pathogen in some instances creates a Organism just like we saw with the NEOMORPHS.

To me i always thought we are shown these Hammerpedes, who appear similar to a degree to the Face Hugger, and it having ACID Blood as being a bit of a Clue... we have to Wonder... WHY did it go down Milburns Throat?  Could it have Laid any Eggs?

Most Worms are Egg Layers, and they Procreate either Asexually or there Species are TWIN Sexed, Hermaphrodites but they can not Fertilize their own Eggs so you need TWO Worms to Mate and then BOTH will have Fertilized Eggs.  The Fact we see the Head Re-Grow i think was to show us these Organism Regenerate but the Black Goo Enhanced this TRAIT and so we see TWO Hammerpedes, could they have Fertilized Each others Eggs?  Its what i was drawn too.

"For now, this is what I think was likely going on there. I hope you can help out with the difficult parts and point out the inconsistencies. This doesn't at all explain where engineer's themselves came from. This all is just a speculation on my part"

There are a number of ways things can be interpreted, but i would say IMO you are not FAR off what i think could be at play, its nice to see someone who has invested TIME and has a GREAT understanding for Prometheus, and someone who likewise, appears to be in and around the same Ball Park as my conclusions...

Are we CLOSE? who knows... i would like to think we are NOT that Far off, but then its a case of those working on the Plot/Project could be changing things on the FLY.

I would say your theories are Logical to me, i cant really Argue against anything you say, maybe i offer a slight different take on some Elements...  BUT THEN... i dont have a ONE Set theory for it all, i have a number of possible theories which i cant really conclude which sounds right... but i will say they ALL are in and around the Same Ball Park as your theories and Posts.

So i APPLAUD you for your Time and Effort and how you seem to GET what many maybe dont, but in their defense, its something that takes a lot of Thought and Investment to delve Deep into the Mysteries and Clues.

I think if we took your Posts... and handed them to Ridley Scott, or someone in the KNOW to what the Plans was certainly at the time when Final Production and Shooting commenced on Prometheus or even post Shooting...   i would not be surprised if they looked at it and thought  "This Person is Pretty Darn Close" or at least... they would think WOW thats some interesting Interpretation... 

BigDave

thank you for somewhat flattering words - but, I suspect, there is nothing novel in what I posted. Indeed, if the things I raised rings a bell to you - it is because there is no originality in what I say. And indeed there should be none, because all I did is I retrospectively looked at Prometheus ( having the benefit of knowing what happened in AC ) and just tried to fill in the blanks with somewhat plausible and not so far reaching and bold arguments. In other words - I relied on the exposition we are already given and fitted the voids with somewhat reasonable guesses. Of course I didn't expect to be completely wrong - because that would undermine the events from both movies, since I used those events as a foundation :) As far as the filmmakers go, come on, BigDave, don't be silly - they are not interested in this kind of feedback. I mean they are least bit interested in the story itself. What they are interested is however, is how general public perceives their story. And if we like it or not, because this will suggest to them if some knobs should be adjusted or not, because ultimately this is all about selling us a fiction for profit.

I started pondering about Prometheus and AC after they got rid of Shaw in a way that discarded the build up I was expecting to pay off. That left a huge void, in my opinion, and I was upset and frustrated with the way it was handled - so I decided to take another look and see if there was actually a plausible explanation as why we initially were sort of promised an interesting story that might happen between Elizabeth and David and then we are given this abrupt story where she is dead and David is suddenly turned from his stoic, robotically rational self to this uncharacteristic and spiritual person that he is now( Wayland, you fool, you are/were wrong - David now has more soul than you ever had in your life!). 

It seems, I lack a lot of background material - all those deleted scenes and interviews. I never actually paid that much attention to what Ridley said or the production team had to say(or writers, or novel authors or producers, etc). But thanks to you, I see that I don't have to source all that and fill myself in with that, because what I spewed looked somewhat consistent according to you.

Now, all that I posted, is a bit off-topic(The thread, which is aptly titled as the David dilemma), but, it rather shows that David, who is now effectively Peter Wayland himself(immortalized Wayland would probably behave just as David) is actually indispensable to the story. While the filmmakers may (or may not) want to get rid of him, it is David's choices that will define the story(should it ever continue). I am not expecting David or even the next movie to answer the questions and address the ambiguities raised in P & AC - because there is no point for them to revive Prometheus and in any case(because it is a 6 years old movie, an old story that was no so well received as well), any explanation to this recursive question of "who made them" will NOT satisfy a lot of folks - hence, I suspect, it will be left ambiguous and frankly this is the best way for us, the viewers and them(easy on them).

However, what is interesting is, what kind of world David would create, now that he has all the benefit and knowledge of engineers, humanity and this new children of his(and of course he has some of that mutagen)?

PS: I wonder, would an engineer treat David differently had he not occurred on the appearance that much organic and human like. Say if he was a something like a R2D2 - metallic and non-humanoid like. The reason I ask is because these engineers, back on paradise, they kept this organic technology of theirs - out of the planet. Everything they have there is made from stones, some linen or whatever. None of that goo-black magic shit, which they confined to quarantined LV-223. Okay, he would still kill Wayland and all those humans, but imagine if he woke up to a robot only. Would his first hunch be to destroy it? I suppose the answer to this question relies on engineers. If they could/were able to produce artificial intelligence then he would just get rid of it and be done with it. But, if AI and such tech is novel to them, would they find such thing useful? Would they want such tech on their planet? And the answer to such question would probably answer a lot about engineers. If they would accept such tech that would show that they are in fact somewhat progressive and accepting the novel ideas. If not, they are very conservative species(calcified) that are somehow sure that there is only their way of life in universe and everything else is just heretic and needs to be destroyed. That is, not only they shun technology, they reject all other life forms that they have not created themselves. That would mean that they are indeed the top of the pyramid of hierarchy in the universe. At least that would be what they think they are.

PPS: just for fun, imagine if David woke him up and started playing Wagner to him. They could become best buddies. Engineers certainly used music to communicate. They even used music to start the ship. And the ship can replay the holographic recordings and activate its systems if the recording has some musical notes in it. That is, in a way the ship reacts to its own records - it can interpret its recordings. Surely, then, for engineers music is another way of communication. Some believe that music is universal, just like math - it has symmetry. Did David like music because it was indeed such universal thing to enjoy or is it because he was displaying his predisposition and eccentricity from his first day? Wayland wrongly thought he had no soul, I think David, somehow had too much of it. Indeed, he spooked people, hence they created Walter. So, the summary is this : if David liked appreciated music because there is some intrinsic value in it (and it doesn't matter if a human being composed it - after all, science, mathematics, music is not exclusively given to humans. Indeed David, who didn't value humans much nevertheless appreciated human creations - tech, music, evolution after all he is a product of humanity himself), then surely an engineer would appreciate it as well.

The Damon Lindelof  Legacy. 

The first point to remember is Damon gave us permission implicitly in the story and explicitly in the commentary to dare to dream about what the movie meant. There is a part of the Franchise audience that hated that they want answers and now !

So the sequel to Prometheus could go in a number of different ways but there are certain immutable points that you need if you want to carry the Prometheus fans with you.

Wayne Hagg

He indicated that David was the straight line from Prometheus and essentially all the Bullshit was being dispensed with. 

Pietro Scalia

Indicated that the filmed much more material which showed the link between P and A C but edited out because it assumed people would have watched Prometheus.

If you take these two comments together its clear that switching to an ALIEN prefix was viewed overall as a chance to start again and bring the minimum amount of the investment of Prometheus forward. I therefore think that trying to tie the two movies together as part of a grand arc is counter intuitive. Indeed as I have said once you start applying logic to the narrative momentum set up by Prometheus it becomes even more obvious that the two films are connected by sticking plaster.

Now there may be people who love A C and find the sequel if it gets made a binding coherent narrative but you will never bring Prometheus along with you and here is why.

The teardrop ship is a magnanimous gesture of goodness to help catalyse life. They are up there in the hierarchy somewhere and if they wanted they could stamp on David like an Elephant stamping on a mouse but they haven't been in the story since the first films beginning.

David was meant to be complex and multi faceted oddly subsequent Alien films all show that a robot is more one dimensional. He was a one off and that  fits with Walter. Now he is a Bi Sexual Hannibal Lector who for some reason eradicates a race without studying them (oh yeah what were the answers he found out). So for him to pursue the other theme of Prometheus (what is a soul) is frankly times up. he lost any credible chance of a soul by his treatment of Elizabeth.      

So the creation story and the soul story have been hung up and are out to dry and we are left with a silly war of the worlds scenario and god for bid W-Y turning up and Daniels a Queen.  

I was wondering if those on the bigger ship at the start of the Prometheus are of significance to the story. Surely, they are of the same ilk as the other engineers. At least they are closely related. One thing right away, and this is rather curious - they seem to age. Do they posses immortality? In the words of Weyland, all the gifts, all the art and all that ingenuity is utterly meaningless if they die out just like humans. And true gods never die. I do not believe these awkward humanoids, who need atmosphere to breath, cryo chambers to sleep(they are not timeless - they do age), I mean those walking gods are not really created for space travel. They are not creators of the world. If you are a god and created the world would you need a ship, would you really need an awkward, human like body, would you need a cryo chamber to sleep during space travel? Would you need to die to seed a planet? If one looks at struggles of the engineer to fight the trilobite, I don't think he could possibly live say on ... a very cold or very big planet having big density/gravity. They're rather weak and do not really look strong enough like the masters of the universe would, do they?

Then, I guess the big question is if the there anything special about these folks at all? The only genuinely interesting question is where did they get the mutagen, the magic potion. Because whatever its nature is, it seems to work hand in hand with their makeup - that is, it is very likely that they have the same origin. And what is interesting, these engineers are content with the way of their life, they are content with their mortality. Weyland, in his senior years was very keen to find his makers so he can ask for a bit of time. These folks, having a big big ship having seeded planets, in their senior years, are totally fine to die because of age? These are certainly not super powerful gods. And if there was all powerful god, wouldn't they find him? Somehow, I think, while they are at the top of the hierarchy pyramid, they are not exactly gods in the traditional sense of the word. And sadly, it doesn't seem likely there is actually a race above them. Because even if there is such a race, creators of engineers, there is nothing, not a single clue in both movies to suggest that, at least as far as I can see.

Please, let me know if I missed a point about them.

Michelle Johnston That Hagg comment really pisses me off, as it says that I am stupid for liking the bullshit. He is just a Giger tribute band high on self importance! And I did not interpret David as being bisexual. The seduction of Walter was more masturbatory than anything and his kiss was the kiss of death (and a throw back to BR - as we life in the age of endless throw backs). And why is a rapist android so important? And sorry Hannibal was not a rapist.

@BioDegradable

The teardrop ship incident is billions of years ago. We have no idea who is the ship because the Engineers who were to appear were discarded. Ridley did not want God Rocking up immediately.

So the acolyte is a a unique vessel of the catalyser and has chosen and accepted the role of sacrifice. One of the big themes of a series of Prometheus movies.But I chose to believe he did it with the words of the chant ringing in his ears.

After that appearance by the hierarchy who probably terraform as well as catalyse their presence is implicit. That is part of the Damon Lindelof legacy you just need to know were to look.

The Engineers are mortal, they are merely a superiors species who created us so as Elizabeth said to Charlie who created them and more infuriatingly Ridley Scott in 2015 in an interview.

The key to creation is the Acolyte he ingests the catalyser and all that he is kick starts and moves on the development process. The acolyte has been with the  occupants of the Teardrop Ship and they provided the catalyser, so what helps take a raw unfinished world and turns it into an environment where forna and flora can flourish, creatures evolve and mankind stands up and civilise himself ? Theres only one answer. Thats what God is in this mythos.God in this mythos is not the guy with the deep voice and big beard it is much more and its in that chant.

Essentially this myth takes a certain part of the magic of our existence and bottles it.

Just to take the piss, if there are gods in the ALIEN universe, then they made sure Covenant stopped from their original target - Origae, by a neutrino burst, and just as if by magic, they received the beacon from the planet just at the right time and if Tee was a bit out of place he would have never picked up the beacon. Interesting.

The most unlikely thing that could have happened - it looked completely incidental. It is super super unlikely, like one in a trillion of a trillion chance, actually even more unlikely than that. In fact the chance is so slim, considering the vastness of the universe that it is mathematically vanishingly unlikely, almost zero. And yet it happened. Now, the clues in the movie are such that (recall Oram - he believed in greater plan, that things happened for a reason) it is not to be taken as an incident. Recall that Peter Weyland who also refused to believe that creation is a result of incidental biological events.

So these gods wanted David to destroy those engineers. Huh? They wanted the retribution. They wanted David produce his children. They are fine with what he did with Shaw then as well. So, these gods are quite kind towards David. If not for this divine intervention he was bound to die of boredom on that planet. But most unlikely thing happened and he got all his wishes - his children, bunch of colonists in stasis and a ship under his command...so he can go on and carry his experiments.

Can you guys actually reject this suggestion as an absurd one or account for it? It is not easy to sweep under the carpet, is it?

To be fair to any storywriter, it is bloody difficult to come up with a satisfactory story of origin of life - the jews tried it with their abrahamic religions, the scientists have bunch of hypothesis of how it all started from a big bang. But nobody in the world has come up with somewhat plausible explanation of how it all came together from nothing :)

So whatever they (lindeloff?) came up with is okay - that is it is equally rubbish as anything else in any case. One would be equally wise just to assume that say ... Magneto created the world... However, I want to wind down this nihilistic approach somewhat and actually try and get the story that writers came up with. Again, it is unreasonable to expect for this story to stand a chance of being analyzed rigorously but, I just wanted to see their gist of the story. Because it is what, 6 years now, two movies in and I am still at loss and finding it all on quite shaky grounds.

BigDave already suggested that they are just throwing it at the wall to see if anything sticks. And it indeed looks as much. And this is the sad part. Can't they just pay someone to write out a coherent story? Is it that expensive? Or is it that they are really struggling to make a movie which needs to satisfy lots and lots of stakeholders? FFs who is the engineer of this movie? He certainly deserves the massacre by black goo.

@ignorantGuy

The notion of male masturbation obviously passed me by I was focussing on the dialogue which suggest he is trying to groom him before the kiss. Michael is on record as channeling Hannabel. I saw "Silence of the Lambs" eons ago so I can not comment on how accurate Michael believing he was channeling him is.

Much more fertile ground is to return to the David of Prometheus or the wake up scene with Weyland and then role him forward and wonder how he might actually respond to kindness and the freedom to be whatever he wants within the make up of his creation. David cannot father children ergo he has no functioning sexuality and doesn't want what he cannot have. However he is fascinated by Elizabeths and the acolytes promise. Elizabeth cannot have children either, her paean in Prometheus, but that wish has been granted, and demonstrably she can, but not of her design, and the person responsible for that state of affairs is David whom she heals.... so what happens then?

@Michelle Johnston, accord to Hagg nothing interesting happens as it is all bullshit (to be read as sarcastically as possible).

The end of Prom, for me at least, could very well hint at the Mercer plot-line from Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, so maybe you could also check that out.

And to be honest, maybe Fassbender was channeling the inferior Hannibal (as in sadistic and less redeeming) from RS' movie, not from the great Silence of the Lambs.

Biodegradable: "I think this is the problem for FOX - who is the main target audience?"

Yeah I agree
It seems to me that different alien movies have taken different directions. Alien was a haunted house in space, Aliens was like an action movie with monsters, Alien 3 was closer to Alien but added different things which I really liked. AR was too light and comedy for my taste.  The prequels added the AI thing/robot stuff (that is how it comes off on screen so F it) and the engineers so now we have many things that people find interesting and I bet that very few alien fans agree about what makes the franchise good or that agree on which movies that they think are the best. This and also that the prequels have been disappointments (especially AC, P is OK) makes me wonder how they will get people to see another alien movie especially since they screwed up the last one.

Having different fans is good, it means that not everyone agree about everything. My favorite in the franchise is Alien 3 but I bet that many disagree which is alright. This makes for some interesting discussions as we can see here and on the AVPgalaxy-forums.

The Engineers could be something if we saw some more of their society, military, science and that. Yes they could have been better done in Prometheus but they were interesting enough for me to follow that story. There could be something interesting from this but unfortunately it got bombed in AC in favor of a mad android.

A War of the World movie could work if they get the Engineers right and the human characters but the idea in itself seems interesting. They need a good script and interesting characters for it to work.

"I have seen by the example of BR2049, that legacy means jack shit - if you don't target teens, females, dad & moms then you will lose money."

Well it is impossible to please everyone but you can try to make the important parts work (story and characters). These two things did not work with AC so I hope that they get these two things right. My reason for not watching BR2049 was because it was about AI which I got tired of after AC so I did not watch it because of that.

Ridley could mean quality but keep him away from the script since he seems to want another David movie. His fascination with David which is getting old and gave us AC which was a disappointment both for me and also look at how much profits it made. Scott is good with the visuals but should have nothing to do with the script or else we will get another David movie, which would be crap.

About the Engineer speaks clip from Prometheus they should have had subtitles to that because it explains a lot why they want to get rid of humanity. To not have subtitles to that is dumb since it makes it harder for someone that does not have time to get what the movie or a big part of it is about. Who ever decided to keep that scene out made a dumb ass decision, I do not care who it was. It shows how good the movie could have been it is just bad that they messed a lot of it up but it is still alright though. Covenant made Prometheus better.

“I understand what you both are saying and appreciate what you embarked upon. I tried to, superficially, interpret events seen from both movies, and as such I would and did reach conclusions that are understandably different to what you might end up with.”

That is totally fine, after all Prometheus and Alien Covenant (especially Prometheus) were vague about things. Some people might come up with different results depending on what they are interested in, what they have watched before and so on. I do not have a problem with this as long as the conclusions are logical. When it came to Prometheus my focus first was on how the Xeno came to be since there was much information in it and therefore I had to choose what I was mostly interested in. The more I have watched it the more understanding I have (hopefully) about the movie.

People might come up with different ideas and conclusions since Prometheus is kind of vague about things but that is fine with me. The ambiguity makes some interesting discussions which I enjoy.

“I just wonder about how much of theorizing we as audience should be doing.”

That question is totally legitimate. If you make it too obvious it is boring and if it is too many vague details it gets difficult to come up with some conclusion. What is needed is some middle approach or whatever to call it which I am not sure if Prometheus managed to get. I am a person that if I am interested enough I go back to a movie and try to understand something that I did not get before until I have some better understanding of it but not everyone is that interested/stubborn which I think is a problem with that movie.

Messy story, what to put on the screen. Maybe there is a bit of both? I have watched some extra scenes that make the movie better so at least some of what they did not put in the movie could have made it better (Xeno Fifield, the quiet eye, Weyland speech,  for example).

“You see I do not appreciate such writers at all.”

That is totally understandable.

Michelle:

I would not have minded a sequel where we get to know more about the Engineers. That could have been interesting but if they should have Shaw she should have been more like in the Crossing or whatever that was called and not like in Prometheus. David should not have been that evil as he was in Alien Covenant and the focus should have been less about him. The Engineers and their monsters and the goo should have had a kind of big part if I would have written the story but I probably lack when it comes to that so other persons better do it. Adding other characters than David and Shaw is something that I would have done because I am not sure if I would have found a whole movie dedicated to Shaw David and the Engineers to be that good since we need more and better human characters for that.

“The key building blocks of Davids character as portrayed in Prometheus do not lead to his behaviour in ALIEN COVENANT...”

Not automatically, I guess at least I did not look at it like it has to.

Another thing is that I think that they made David too human. I think that it is interesting to see how human an android can be but I still think that there is a line between a synthetic and a human otherwise we would not even need to talk about humans and robots.

“How might he achieve that. Well it does not involve denture chops or as Ridley put it dragons and all that ..…"

Maybe but I still don’t think that they should have made him that evil as he was in AC.

Instead of a David movie they should have had and hopefully will have (if we get another movie but I am prepared for a disappointment but hopefully it will be alright at least):

    1. Better human characters
    2. Less David but not as evil as in AC
    3. More about the Engineers
    4. More and better written about the connection between the pathogen (goo), the Engineers, and the Xeno
    5. Not David as the suppose creator of the Xeno and finally
    6. Maybe something about the WY company

The themes could be humanity, creation sure (therefore the Engineers), our place in the universe, corporate greed (the company). Maybe they could have had something more about WY in the next movie? That could be interesting depending on how they do it but I guess that there is so much that they could put in there. What is important is that they take their time and do things well, quality over quantity.

Alright here is where I am trying to be a bit more constructive and not complain. ;) This would be a movie that I would find interesting but I understand that there are different kind of ideas what an alien movie should be about.

“… it would be pacing of the first two acts of the assembly cut of A 3 particularly the nice stuff between Charles Dance and Sigourney Weaver.”

I like differences in pacing in movie, you can not have action all the time or slow things all the time. There has got to be a middle ground there, that is what I believe. The reason why the talking between Weaver and Dance worked was because of an interesting story, well done characters and that you need a mix of action and slow paced scenes where we get to know more about the characters. Maybe your story could work if it is not very slow.

@ignorantGuy

Thanks for your suggestions.

For me the BR series is about how you define what life is and the drama is driven by humanities fear of Synthetics and their reaction. Dick and the movies do some neat things to show how the new form of "life" can work. It has great fabric is highly idiosyncratic and one I would keep away from. 

For me the Prometheus Sequence is about creation and what its key currency is that drives it and whether we have a responsibility to adhere to that. As its an engineered world, thats an adjective not a noun, whether its biological or mechanical it is still a construct a house in which "it" needs to reside. 

One of the things I did not consciously consider, it just happened but where David and Elizabeth arrive that David is A I is not important to them actually it is an advantage to the story. It is how much "It" he displays which is important and because of their perception skills he can not dissemble anyway. Thinking about it he doesn't even try with them.   

David makes judgements about what to do in a given situation and makes mistakes but he is free of apartheid and therefore at least can get to make them and be treated like everyone else and grow but thats just socialisation. its interesting to look at the opening sequence with Meredith and see how those types of scenes work now after all those years with Elizabeth.

@Thoughts_Dreams

Nice to hear from you. I think the first thing to say is I am writing a continuation novel and as you know action works completely different on the Page to on the screen. However I think the narrative has momentum its just that its introspective and thoughtful rather than like the 3rd Act of Alien Covenant. Indeed I just read that last act in the wake of your comments and I found it uninteresting because the proposition was so hackneyed whatever its pace.

The point I make up the thread is not to be self abasing about people being bored witless its simply to acknowledge that there are a vast range of fans of movies that are captured within the franchise and I am right at one end of that spectrum where Prometheus despite its faults is great for me. So if I carry that torch and do the opposite of Wayne Haggs remark I also want to be honest and say many people will find what I have done not to there taste. Ironically despite all that I have put the meaning of the Derelict Juggernaut right at the top of the hierarchy of thank god it never got where it was going.    

"because all I did is I retrospectively looked at Prometheus "

Indeed and its a movie with using other clues that does involve a lot of thought to try and get to the bottom of things, this in part is thanks to its ambiguity and i find that refreshing compared to a Spoon Fed movie or Popcorn Flick with no Mystery.  Where everyone can only come to a few logical conclusions.

"don't be silly - they are not interested in this kind of feedback. I mean they are least bit interested in the story itself"

This is sadly very true and while RS may care, it is FOX who fund the Franchise and they will be looking more at what would make more cash and appease more Fans...  which pretty much sums up some of the reasons for the Changes.... things that were Toned down to bring us to a Direct Prequel that has to introduce the Xenomorphs... where as i think RS hoped Prometheus would have allowed them to steer away from that and cover something Fresh.   But indeed it appears they could be changing things to suit what they deem to be the majority criticisms with the Franchise... so it will be interesting to see what they do about the Majority of Criticism regarding Alien Covenant  because it sets up a Sequel that points to a continuation of David as the Creator of our Xenomorph in ALIEN which i am sure a Vast Majority are not pleased with, so maybe we will get more Plot Twists/U-Turns to come.

 "any explanation to this recursive question of "who made them" will NOT satisfy a lot of folks "

I agree with most of your reply, also regarding any direction to take and those Questions from Prometheus and Alien Covenant, i do think its maybe unlikely and especially now that any sequel would answer any of those things.  Not to the depth that Prometheus Fans would want, as its now a case of a more Spoon Fed Route where we may get a few answers from the previous movies, but indeed its now about Focus on WHAT David does next and WHY, and i do think our Engineers Return will mainly be a Plot Device used to Obtain the Derelict Space Craft.

" That is, not only they shun technology, they reject all other life forms that they have not created themselves"

I think thats a interesting Paragraph i took this from, indeed it would be interesting to Ponder what Reaction the Engineer would have IF David looked nothing like a Human.  I think he would be Shocked and Intrigued to have something that clearly looks Non-Organic yet this piece of Metal is talking to the Engineer in his Native Tongue... i am sure he would be like WTF!  But then would a part of the Engineer be Fascinated by this Mechanical Construct.

Regarding the Heresy of other things they had not Created, i think this is interesting and who knows.... One thing to think about is they appeared to have a Worship/High Regard for the Xenomorph.. well the Mural, and is this a creation from scratch..  or a Creature they had not created that they came into contact with and saw the results of the Parasites Life Cycle and began to Engineer and Experiment on this Organism THEY DID-NOT Originally Create as far as the Parasite that lead to their experiments... Then we can wonder would a Faction of Engineers taking interest and experimenting with this Organism be considering a Form of Heresy and contributes to their FALL?

Regarding Music... i think it would have been interesting to see how a Engineer Responds to David or a Human who plays Music to them, indeed Music seems to be a part of their Technology as far as communication/activation of their Technology, the Deleted Scene we saw the Engineer was very interesting and perplexed by the Violin Girl, and some drawings/concept works for Alien Covenant does show those Engineers did have Musical Instruments and so yes Music is Universal..

" because it assumed people would have watched Prometheus."

Michelle thats Certainly is a valid point, i kind of also think that Alien Covenant may have gotten some who had not seen Prometheus, to then go and investigate this movie or watch it again to maybe see where this David had come from to the point he arrived in Alien Covenant.

"its clear that switching to an ALIEN prefix was viewed overall as a chance to start again and bring the minimum amount of the investment of Prometheus forward"

Certainly seems to be the case for the most Part which is a little unfortunate considering Ridley Scotts Vision.  But i think and as the Wayne Hagg part refers, they are just take what few things are Necessary to carry over to drive Prometheus Directly to ALIEN and so many things dont need to be covered in order to Join the Dots to ALIEN, which i find a disappointment.  But a lot of stuff from Prometheus could be seen as Unnecessary Filler Material thats not needed to get from the Derelict back to WHEN/HOW/WHY those Eggs were Created and got onto that Ship.

"oh yeah what were the answers he found out"

This is a very good Question, because it appears its likely he Did-Not know too much more than all of Dr Shaw and Holloways work on the Ancient Aliens/Gods connections.  Who know what information he could have gained from the Limited Hologram Recordings and Engineer Writing in the LV-223 Complex...  The CROSSING video kind of points to David Discovering the Engineer Ways after Dr Shaw was placed into Cryo-sleep and so its interesting to ASK what exactly could the Systems on the Juggernaught had informed him about these Engineers?  Did he go back to LV-223 for a Snoop around to get more Information?  As indeed would the Engineers have a Wealth of Information about their WAYS stored on that Ship?

"So the creation story and the soul story have been hung up and are out to dry and we are left with a silly war of the worlds scenario and god for bid W-Y turning up and Daniels a Queen."

Certainly something to be Concerned with as far as Depth/Explanation to any reasons WHY the Engineers turn up and get involved, beyond a simply Looking for Revenge and to ONCE and for ALL Prevent Mankind and our Creations (David) for influencing the Galaxy and all the Careful laid Plans and Agenda of the Engineers... where i dont think we will be shown much of teh actual Ways of the Engineers, but just another Aggressive $"£%£$^ out to Kick Ass.

Hopefully this could lead to another Movie where we can get more about the Engineers History and Agenda... but and especially NOW.. its a case of this being unlikely.

I will answer these few Questions with my TWO cents before reading Michelle's reply to them.

"If you are a god and created the world would you need a ship"

"I guess the big question is if the there anything special about these folks at all"

"I think, while they are at the top of the hierarchy pyramid, they are not exactly gods in the traditional sense of the word."

All of these and the Paragraphs they are in are some interesting things to look at...    The Teardrop ship was a Ancient Craft that these Engineers or what ever beings used to go World to World to drop off Sacrificial Beings so that there Body can be used with the Sacrificial Goo so that LIFE can be created from their Body...  This fits a number of Creation Mythos.

While we see those OLD and Frail Engineers, we have to remember the Removal of this Scene means maybe we cant use them as Canon, because they could be replaced with something else or LESS Fragile beings.   Ridley Scott spoke of the removal of this Scene and it appears he felt those Engineers just did not look Godlike enough, and he also said HE never intended to meet GOD in the first Movie...  which could imply those Engineers we saw are not GODS but it could imply the Elders are GODS but maybe he felt they did not appear Godlike enough or that he wanted to keep them Hidden for a more detailed Reveal in the sequel.

When talking about Prometheus 2 after Prometheus he said that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings, and they are not GODS not in the Traditional Sense.  Then we get to Alien Covenant and our Engineers appear more Human/Fragile than the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Ones... he also called those guys the ORIGINAL Engineers so the Prometheus Ones are they Genetically Engineered Sub-creations like the Replicants are to Humans?  He could have meant those Hall of Head Engineers though who do seem to be more similar to the Elders from the Deleted Scenes.

Regarding how "there anything special about these folks at all" i think this is a theme RS was exploring that those Engineers are just more Ancient than Mankind and its only their Technology and Knowledge that makes them more Godlike...  While also being a bit more Physically Built... it appears only the LV-223/Prometheus Engineers stand out as Physically Large Specimens.

So we can suggest they are NOT Gods... but then its a Question of IS there a Real GOD, what is a Real GOD... i think this is pretty open in context of the Franchise... and who knows how they would have tackled this....  RS had asked a Question prior to Alien Covenant ... IF the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then what made it possible for Worlds to Support Life in the First Place... where is the BIG GUY?  he then further Mentions the Big Bang and asked was this a Accident?  and even saying Stephen Hawkings thinks it May-Not have been.

So was RS implying there is some Force/Being or Advanced Technology that allowed for the creation of Worlds/Galaxies.. this is something OVER a year prior a Source i had touched upon as far as Paglen/Green Prometheus 2 was to cover/hint.

Where did the GOO come from this is interesting...  some have pondered if this is Stolen Technology by the Engineers, Wayne Haagg even had the impression maybe the Engineers Technology is Stolen/Borrowed and so not their own.. I certainly felt it was like the Fire in Prometheus... so its a case of is THIS Fire Stolen from Gods.. well other beings... so implies the Engineers Stole this.. or is it just some Engineers had used this Fire in a way that was not intended.

The Source i had claimed that the Crystal in Prometheus was the Source of this FIRE, and that it was a SHARD taken from a Obelisk like Stone, that was not quite Rock/Metal and had Roots and was Growing and was in effect the TREE OF LIFE/KNOWLEDGE on Paradise a Forbidden Fruit..  And that the Stealing/Miss use of a Shard of this TREE OF LIFE was what lead to the Fall of these beings.

Certainly interesting, something i was drawn too, only i never quite thought of there actually being some kind of ROCK that is the Source of the Black Goo, i thought maybe there is something that is kind of represents the Forbidden Fruit...  But indeed IF this information is correct which there is NO way of knowing unless we see the Drafts that Paglen/Green worked on.... i find it interesting that a Rock with Roots that Glows Green is the Source of the Creation Tool/Goo something interesting and just fits....  They also said the Plot is actually close to the DARK CRYSTAL in more than a Large Rock with a Missing Shard. Going as far to say its a bit of a Rip Off in Parts.

"Can you guys actually reject this suggestion as an absurd one or account for it? It is not easy to sweep under the carpet, is it?"

Certainly was a Random Event... was it Coincidence? Planned? I think its merely just a Plot Device to get the Covenant to change its Course from its Original Destination... some speculated did David Cause the Neutrino Burst?  I think it was just a Event unrelated to David.

But when looking at the GODs... Who knows.. i dont think they intended this Event so that David could Eradicate Mankind or the Engineers, because RS has hinted the Engineers return and are not HAPPY at all at what happened and they will want to Find/Punish the Culprit... (David)

But looking at a Neutrino Burst as a starting point to Create Life, as indeed the Destruction of Stars Eventually gives birth to New Stars (when we are talking about Larger Stars) and i had made a Topic Before about HOW could we tackle any more Divine/Power behind all this Creation as RS had asked "where is the BIG GUY" i certainly thought about that and considered a EGG as the Catalyst and that those who created the Engineers, had a Technology that was Eggs of various sizes that could be Programed to Act in Certain Ways...  One way is to Detonate them that causes a Giant Event that Creates Stars, another is they can be used on Stars to Destroy them.. they can also be used on Planets but set in a way to either Destroy the World Baron or to a lesser Extent Destroy the World back to Basics.

I was thinking of taking the EGG from the ALIEN poster and kind of introducing it as a Creation Tool in context a bit to the Cosmic Egg Theory/Mythos.  Certainly interesting to see if RS had any ideas as far as how FAR up the Creation Ladder did they have ideas for and IF there is a BIG GUY and what this could be....  Magical Being, more Advanced Being, a Robot/Machine?  or something else?

"So whatever they (lindeloff?) came up with is okay"

The ideas all stemmed from what Ridley Scott and Jon Spaights had Brainstormed together.... It was taking Creation and looking at the OPTIONS

*Big Bang/Evolution

*Creationism by a Invisible All Powerful Entity.

So they was looking at some Middle Ground between the TWO a way to Marry the TWO to a degree, and indeed the whole Ancient Aliens Theory AKA Chariots of the Gods..  The Question is at the Base of this, does the Big Bang still apply, or were they Pondering something else to contribute to the Creation of Worlds and Stars and Galaxies... and this seems to be a CARD they was playing close to their Chests.

But to continue with the Wayne Haag Comment... im not 100% sure what he meant, as in i am surprised if indeed he feels the Parts of Prometheus that were NOT linked to the Xenomorph where not interesting and BS!

Was this is personal opinion or was he just mentioning it in context to how all this Back Ground stuff about Engineers and Creation is a Distraction from the MAIN Object of a Prequel which is to SHOW us how the Xenomorph was Created, by WHO and WHY

Because If the U-Turn Direction is NOW just to Answer WHO/WHEN and WHY the Xenomorph was created and then HOW/WHEN it got on to the Derelict Ship (because we only need to see those Eggs get from David's Work to ON-BOARD a Engineer Ship and leave it at that).

Then i guess as Wayne Haag said, or implied all the other stuff from Prometheus is NOT Necessary...  Which i think is a SHAME..

Prometheus was to introduce something Broad, some Back Ground to WHO the Space Jockey Race was and the Bigger Picture about them and NOT just about a Bio-Weapon they created that we all know Ends up Infecting the Space Jockey...  and so the changes that lead to PROMETHEUS was to give us a few clues, but they felt they did not NEED Xenomorphs and the like.... and the Plan was that enough Clues are given, so they can SHUT the Door to ALIEN and move off in a different Direction with any sequels...

The PLOT opened up the Franchise to be more than JUST about this Parasitic Bio-Weapon that infects the Pilot and then is unleashed on Mankind.

But the U-Turn is now to actually SHUT the Door on the Avenues a Prometheus 2 could have gone and OPEN up a Direct route to ALIEN we we may get to see more Snarling, and Chest Bursting and just Connecting the Dots to the Inevitable Space Jockey event.